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Author Topic: "Out with Bill Shelley in front"  (Read 10739 times)

Offline John Iacoletti

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Re: "Out with Bill Shelley in front"
« Reply #240 on: November 09, 2018, 09:34:48 PM »
Mr. BALL. On November 22, 1963, the day the President was shot, when is the last time you saw Oswald?
Mr. SHELLEY. It was 10 or 15 minutes before 12.
Mr. BALL. Where?
Mr. SHELLEY. On the first floor over near the telephone.
Mr. BALL. Did you ever see him again?
Mr. SHELLEY. At the police station when they brought him in.

Bookhout's account doesn't say anything about Shelley seeing Oswald during this time.  Read it again.

"He thereafter went outside and stood around for five or ten minutes with foreman Bill Shelly, and thereafter went home. He stated that he left work because, in his opinion, based upon remarks of Bill Shelly, he did not believe that there was going to be anymore work that day due to the confusion in the building."

Actor Bill Paxton (as a child) stood around the outside of the Hotel Texas in Fort Worth with JFK that morning and heard remarks that JFK made.  It doesn't therefore follow that JFK would report seeing Bill Paxton.

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Re: "Out with Bill Shelley in front"
« Reply #240 on: November 09, 2018, 09:34:48 PM »


Online Bill Chapman

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Re: "Out with Bill Shelley in front"
« Reply #241 on: November 10, 2018, 12:22:56 AM »
Bookhout's account doesn't say anything about Shelley seeing Oswald during this time.  Read it again.

"He thereafter went outside and stood around for five or ten minutes with foreman Bill Shelly, and thereafter went home. He stated that he left work because, in his opinion, based upon remarks of Bill Shelly, he did not believe that there was going to be anymore work that day due to the confusion in the building."

Actor Bill Paxton (as a child) stood around the outside of the Hotel Texas in Fort Worth with JFK that morning and heard remarks that JFK made.  It doesn't therefore follow that JFK would report seeing Bill Paxton.

So he stood around with Shelley. Agreed? And he overheard Shelley talking about maybe ceasing work? Good so far?

Given that Oswald just had to ask Shelley to confirm that work would stop for the day, a good investigator might consider the possibility that the (eventual) prime suspect wasn't about to risk being told to stay at the scene.

Sounds like a familiar MO regarding Oswald showing up, unannounced, at the Paine's the previous evening, rather than calling ahead and risk being turned down.

If you ask me.
« Last Edit: November 12, 2018, 07:43:15 PM by Bill Chapman »

Offline Walt Cakebread

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Re: "Out with Bill Shelley in front"
« Reply #242 on: November 10, 2018, 01:28:37 AM »
Bookhout's account doesn't say anything about Shelley seeing Oswald during this time.  Read it again.

"He thereafter went outside and stood around for five or ten minutes with foreman Bill Shelly, and thereafter went home. He stated that he left work because, in his opinion, based upon remarks of Bill Shelly, he did not believe that there was going to be anymore work that day due to the confusion in the building."

Actor Bill Paxton (as a child) stood around the outside of the Hotel Texas in Fort Worth with JFK that morning and heard remarks that JFK made.  It doesn't therefore follow that JFK would report seeing Bill Paxton.

"He thereafter went outside and stood around for five or ten minutes with foreman Bill Shelly,

You're right.....It's possible that Lee could have stood around outside just as Bill Shelly was also standing around outside......and Shelly might not have noticed Lee because he was watching the activity in the rail yard.

Offline Alan Ford

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Re: "Out with Bill Shelley in front"
« Reply #243 on: November 10, 2018, 02:44:35 AM »
"Oswald stated that on November 22, 1963, at the time of the search of the Texas School Book Depository building by Dallas police officers, he was on the second floor of said building, having just purchased a Coca-cola form the soft-drink machine, at which time a police officer came into the room with pistol drawn and asked him if he worked there. Mr. Truly was present and verified that he was an employee and the police officer thereafter left the room and continued through the building. Oswald stated that he took this Coke down to the first floor and stood around and had lunch in the employees lunch room. He thereafter went outside and stood around for five or ten minutes with foreman Bill Shelly, and thereafter went home."

This new Bookhout (solo) report leaves out the most important Oswald claim contained in the earlier Bookhout (joint) report----------viz., that Oswald claimed to be on the first floor when President John F. Kennedy passed the building. A remarkable omission!

Of course, those of a studiedly see-no-evil-hear-no-evil sensibility will assure us there is nothing to see here... ::)

Offline Walt Cakebread

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Re: "Out with Bill Shelley in front"
« Reply #244 on: November 10, 2018, 09:30:57 PM »
"Oswald stated that on November 22, 1963, at the time of the search of the Texas School Book Depository building by Dallas police officers, he was on the second floor of said building, having just purchased a Coca-cola form the soft-drink machine, at which time a police officer came into the room with pistol drawn and asked him if he worked there. Mr. Truly was present and verified that he was an employee and the police officer thereafter left the room and continued through the building. Oswald stated that he took this Coke down to the first floor and stood around and had lunch in the employees lunch room. He thereafter went outside and stood around for five or ten minutes with foreman Bill Shelly, and thereafter went home."

This new Bookhout (solo) report leaves out the most important Oswald claim contained in the earlier Bookhout (joint) report----------viz., that Oswald claimed to be on the first floor when President John F. Kennedy passed the building. A remarkable omission!


Of course, those of a studiedly see-no-evil-hear-no-evil sensibility will assure us there is nothing to see here... ::)

Oswald claimed to be on the first floor when President John F. Kennedy passed the building.

What's more.... Junior Jarman And Harold Norman testified that they entered the TSBD through the back door near the Domino room at about 12:26 / !2:27....   And Lee Oswald said that he saw them "come in" .  How could he have known that they entered the building near the 1st floor lunchroom if he was not right there watching?     


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Re: "Out with Bill Shelley in front"
« Reply #244 on: November 10, 2018, 09:30:57 PM »


Offline Alan Ford

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Re: "Out with Bill Shelley in front"
« Reply #245 on: November 10, 2018, 11:30:04 PM »
 
Oswald claimed to be on the first floor when President John F. Kennedy passed the building.

What's more.... Junior Jarman And Harold Norman testified that they entered the TSBD through the back door near the Domino room at about 12:26 / !2:27....   And Lee Oswald said that he saw them "come in" .  How could he have known that they entered the building near the 1st floor lunchroom if he was not right there watching?   

Yep  Thumb1:

Now! Here's what Bookhout and Hosty had to say in their joint interrogation report:

Oswald stated that he went to lunch at approximately noon and claimed he ate his lunch on the first floor in the lunch room; however he went to the  second floor where the coca cola machine is located and obtained a bottle of coca cola for his lunch. Oswald claimed to be on the first floor when President John F. Kennedy passed the building.

Question 1! Why no mention here of a police officer confronting Oswald in the second-floor lunchroom?
Question 2! Why no mention in Bookhout's later, solo report of Oswald's all-important claim to have been on the first floor when President John F. Kennedy passed the building?

These questions----------along with a wise policy of not ignoring the obvious import of the words 'for his lunch'----------will guide us to what really happened:

1. Oswald buys coke in second-floor lunchroom
2. Oswald goes downstairs (with coke) to eat his lunch
3. Oswald sees Jarman and Norman enter the building around 12:26
4. Oswald is still on the first floor at 12:30
5. Oswald never goes back up to the second-floor lunchroom

Offline Walt Cakebread

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Re: "Out with Bill Shelley in front"
« Reply #246 on: November 11, 2018, 01:15:37 AM »

Yep  Thumb1:

Now! Here's what Bookhout and Hosty had to say in their joint interrogation report:

Oswald stated that he went to lunch at approximately noon and claimed he ate his lunch on the first floor in the lunch room; however he went to the  second floor where the coca cola machine is located and obtained a bottle of coca cola for his lunch. Oswald claimed to be on the first floor when President John F. Kennedy passed the building.

Question 1! Why no mention here of a police officer confronting Oswald in the second-floor lunchroom?
Question 2! Why no mention in Bookhout's later, solo report of Oswald's all-important claim to have been on the first floor when President John F. Kennedy passed the building?

These questions----------along with a wise policy of not ignoring the obvious import of the words 'for his lunch'----------will guide us to what really happened:

1. Oswald buys coke in second-floor lunchroom
2. Oswald goes downstairs (with coke) to eat his lunch
3. Oswald sees Jarman and Norman enter the building around 12:26
4. Oswald is still on the first floor at 12:30
5. Oswald never goes back up to the second-floor lunchroom

1. Oswald goes downstairs to eat his lunch at about 12:15
2. Oswald sees Jarman and Norman enter the building around 12:26
3. Oswald is still on the first floor at 12:30
4. Oswald buys coke in second-floor lunchroom
   


Offline Larry Trotter

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Re: "Out with Bill Shelley in front"
« Reply #247 on: November 11, 2018, 02:48:16 AM »
But! Read the first interrogation report Bookhout put his name to (along with James Hosty). It says that Oswald "claimed to be on the first floor when President John F. Kennedy passed the building".
Bookhout's second solo report was a cynical attempt to garble what Oswald had really said------------and to lend support to the invented 2nd floor lunchroom story!

Can you, AlanFord, literally prove your assertion about "Bookhout's second solo report"?... Or, is it as it appears, simply an opinionated conclusion?

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Re: "Out with Bill Shelley in front"
« Reply #247 on: November 11, 2018, 02:48:16 AM »


Offline Alan Ford

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Re: "Out with Bill Shelley in front"
« Reply #248 on: November 11, 2018, 12:53:42 PM »
1. Oswald goes downstairs to eat his lunch at about 12:15
2. Oswald sees Jarman and Norman enter the building around 12:26
3. Oswald is still on the first floor at 12:30
4. Oswald buys coke in second-floor lunchroom
 

Nearly right...

But! The Bookhout-Hosty joint report, and the second-floor sightings of Oswald by Carolyn Arnold and Sarah Stanton, help us reconstruct what Oswald really told Captain Fritz:

1. Oswald goes downstairs to eat his lunch at about 12:15
2. Oswald buys coke in second-floor lunchroom
3. Oswald sees Jarman and Norman enter the building around 12:26
4. Oswald is still on the first floor at 12:30

No return visit to the second-floor lunchroom! Baker and Truly lied about when and where they encountered Oswald!

The question now becomes: where exactly on the first floor was Oswald when President John F. Kennedy passed the building?



Offline Walt Cakebread

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Re: "Out with Bill Shelley in front"
« Reply #249 on: November 11, 2018, 04:12:56 PM »
Nearly right...

But! The Bookhout-Hosty joint report, and the second-floor sightings of Oswald by Carolyn Arnold and Sarah Stanton, help us reconstruct what Oswald really told Captain Fritz:

1. Oswald goes downstairs to eat his lunch at about 12:15
2. Oswald buys coke in second-floor lunchroom
3. Oswald sees Jarman and Norman enter the building around 12:26
4. Oswald is still on the first floor at 12:30

No return visit to the second-floor lunchroom! Baker and Truly lied about when and where they encountered Oswald!

The question now becomes: where exactly on the first floor was Oswald when President John F. Kennedy passed the building?

Lets not quibble....  The really important and essential points are....

3. Oswald sees Jarman and Norman enter the building around 12:26

4. Oswald is still on the first floor at 12:30


Lee was most certainly NOT on the sixth floor at the time JFK was murdered....



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Re: "Out with Bill Shelley in front"
« Reply #249 on: November 11, 2018, 04:12:56 PM »