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Author Topic: "Out with Bill Shelley in front"  (Read 9090 times)

Online Walt Cakebread

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Re: "Out with Bill Shelley in front"
« Reply #240 on: November 08, 2018, 09:10:11 PM »
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You aren't thinking Walt...We know Oswald was never outside with Shelley because someone would have seen him right there up front...So we have to ask where he really was...What you could be seeing here is Harvey trying to assume what Lee did after Lee exited...He knew Shelley would cover his lie because Shelley was Byrd Intel...

We know Oswald was never outside with Shelley because someone would have seen him right there up front..

Yes, You're right.... Buell Frazier did see him OUT FRONT.

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Re: "Out with Bill Shelley in front"
« Reply #240 on: November 08, 2018, 09:10:11 PM »


Online Brian Doyle

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"Out with Bill Shelley in front"
« Reply #241 on: November 08, 2018, 09:20:49 PM »
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We know Oswald was never outside with Shelley because someone would have seen him right there up front..

Yes, You're right.... Buell Frazier did see him OUT FRONT.

After he clearly said "Oswald exited the rear exit" and "Oswald did not exit the front door of the Depository"...

Online Walt Cakebread

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Re: "Out with Bill Shelley in front"
« Reply #242 on: November 09, 2018, 03:01:12 PM »
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After he clearly said "Oswald exited the rear exit" and "Oswald did not exit the front door of the Depository"...

Lee said that he was "out Front"   ......  Did Frazier see him "out Front"..... 

Offline Larry Trotter

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Re: "Out with Bill Shelley in front"
« Reply #243 on: November 09, 2018, 03:48:42 PM »
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Lee said that he was "out Front"   ......  Did Frazier see him "out Front"..... 
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After he clearly said "Oswald exited the rear exit" and "Oswald did not exit the front door of the Depository"...
Actually, I thought that the "out front" comment, attributed to LeeHarveyOswald, actually came from notes made by DPD Captain WillFritz, that in my conclusion, were lacking specifics as to who said what.

Offline John Iacoletti

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Re: "Out with Bill Shelley in front"
« Reply #244 on: November 09, 2018, 04:07:35 PM »
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Actually, I thought that the "out front" comment, attributed to LeeHarveyOswald, actually came from notes made by DPD Captain WillFritz, that in my conclusion, were lacking specifics as to who said what.

Yes, but it's expanded upon by Bookhout's report of the interrogation:

"Oswald stated that on November 22, 1963, at the time of the search of the Texas School Book Depository building by Dallas police officers, he was on the second floor of said building, having just purchased a Coca-cola form the soft-drink machine, at which time a police officer came into the room with pistol drawn and asked him if he worked there. Mr. Truly was present and verified that he was an employee and the police officer thereafter left the room and continued through the building. Oswald stated that he took this Coke down to the first floor and stood around and had lunch in the employees lunch room. He thereafter went outside and stood around for five or ten minutes with foreman Bill Shelly, and thereafter went home. He stated that he left work because, in his opinion, based upon remarks of Bill Shelly, he did not believe that there was going to be anymore work that day due to the confusion in the building.. He stated after arriving at his residence, then he went to a movie where he was subsequently apprehended by the Dallas Police Department."

From this account, "out with Bill Shelley in front" occurred after the encounter with the officer in the lunch room.

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Re: "Out with Bill Shelley in front"
« Reply #244 on: November 09, 2018, 04:07:35 PM »


Offline Alan Ford

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Re: "Out with Bill Shelley in front"
« Reply #245 on: November 09, 2018, 05:54:23 PM »
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Yes, but it's expanded upon by Bookhout's report of the interrogation:

"Oswald stated that on November 22, 1963, at the time of the search of the Texas School Book Depository building by Dallas police officers, he was on the second floor of said building, having just purchased a Coca-cola form the soft-drink machine, at which time a police officer came into the room with pistol drawn and asked him if he worked there. Mr. Truly was present and verified that he was an employee and the police officer thereafter left the room and continued through the building. Oswald stated that he took this Coke down to the first floor and stood around and had lunch in the employees lunch room. He thereafter went outside and stood around for five or ten minutes with foreman Bill Shelly, and thereafter went home. He stated that he left work because, in his opinion, based upon remarks of Bill Shelly, he did not believe that there was going to be anymore work that day due to the confusion in the building.. He stated after arriving at his residence, then he went to a movie where he was subsequently apprehended by the Dallas Police Department."

From this account, "out with Bill Shelley in front" occurred after the encounter with the officer in the lunch room.

But! Read the first interrogation report Bookhout put his name to (along with James Hosty). It says that Oswald "claimed to be on the first floor when President John F. Kennedy passed the building".
Bookhout's second solo report was a cynical attempt to garble what Oswald had really said------------and to lend support to the invented 2nd floor lunchroom story!

Offline Larry Trotter

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Re: "Out with Bill Shelley in front"
« Reply #246 on: November 09, 2018, 06:20:33 PM »
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Actually, I thought that the "out front" comment, attributed to LeeHarveyOswald, actually came from notes made by DPD Captain WillFritz, that in my conclusion, were lacking specifics as to who said what.
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Yes, but it's expanded upon by Bookhout's report of the interrogation:

"Oswald stated that on November 22, 1963, at the time of the search of the Texas School Book Depository building by Dallas police officers, he was on the second floor of said building, having just purchased a Coca-cola form the soft-drink machine, at which time a police officer came into the room with pistol drawn and asked him if he worked there. Mr. Truly was present and verified that he was an employee and the police officer thereafter left the room and continued through the building. Oswald stated that he took this Coke down to the first floor and stood around and had lunch in the employees lunch room. He thereafter went outside and stood around for five or ten minutes with foreman Bill Shelly, and thereafter went home. He stated that he left work because, in his opinion, based upon remarks of Bill Shelly, he did not believe that there was going to be anymore work that day due to the confusion in the building.. He stated after arriving at his residence, then he went to a movie where he was subsequently apprehended by the Dallas Police Department."

From this account, "out with Bill Shelley in front" occurred after the encounter with the officer in the lunch room.
Assuming Bookhout is FBI Agent James W Bookhout(1914-2009), and as you noted, "(Yes, but) it's expanded upon by Bookhout's report of the interrogation:", so still a matter of, he said he said. However, said report does indicate the SecondFloorLunchRoom Encounter did occur, and at about 12:31:30pm, CST, as in my conclusion, it has been well established that the SFLRE had to occur at about 12:31:00 to 12:32:00pm. And, said report indicates that LeeHarveyOswald was in the lunchroom and had just purchased s Coca-Cola from the soft drink machine when the encounter occurred.
According to the Bookhout Report, "Oswald stated that he took this coke down to the first floor and stood around and had lunch in the employees lunch room". In any event, I have to conclude that his lunch event, wherever it was, took place at about 12:35pm, and thru 12:45pm, based on the report. Also reportedly, "He thereafter went outside and stood around for five or ten minutes with foreman Bill Shelley, and thereafter went home". And, after standing around for five or ten minutes with foreman Bill Shelley, "He stated that he left work because, in his opinion, based upon remarks of Bill Shelley, he did not believe that there was going to be anymore work that day due to confusion in the building...".
Accordingly, as indicated by Mr Bookhout's report of the LHO interrogation, I have to conclude that if accurate, LHO did not depart the TexasSchoolBookDepository Building before about 12:50:00pm CST.
« Last Edit: November 09, 2018, 06:22:41 PM by Larry Trotter »

Online Walt Cakebread

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Re: "Out with Bill Shelley in front"
« Reply #247 on: November 09, 2018, 06:54:37 PM »
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Assuming Bookhout is FBI Agent James W Bookhout(1914-2009), and as you noted, "(Yes, but) it's expanded upon by Bookhout's report of the interrogation:", so still a matter of, he said he said. However, said report does indicate the SecondFloorLunchRoom Encounter did occur, and at about 12:31:30pm, CST, as in my conclusion, it has been well established that the SFLRE had to occur at about 12:31:00 to 12:32:00pm. And, said report indicates that LeeHarveyOswald was in the lunchroom and had just purchased s Coca-Cola from the soft drink machine when the encounter occurred.
According to the Bookhout Report, "Oswald stated that he took this coke down to the first floor and stood around and had lunch in the employees lunch room". In any event, I have to conclude that his lunch event, wherever it was, took place at about 12:35pm, and thru 12:45pm, based on the report. Also reportedly, "He thereafter went outside and stood around for five or ten minutes with foreman Bill Shelley, and thereafter went home". And, after standing around for five or ten minutes with foreman Bill Shelley, "He stated that he left work because, in his opinion, based upon remarks of Bill Shelley, he did not believe that there was going to be anymore work that day due to confusion in the building...".
Accordingly, as indicated by Mr Bookhout's report of the LHO interrogation, I have to conclude that if accurate, LHO did not depart the TexasSchoolBookDepository Building before about 12:50:00pm CST.

Larry, I disagree with you .....    And Bookhout...  I believe Bookhout was confused about WHEN Lee said he ate his lunch....There is ample records to show that Lee said he ate his lunch in the first floor lunchroom ( Domino Room) and He saw Junior Jarman and Harold Norman come in to the building through the back door at about 12:26 .   He then went to the second floor lunchroom and obtained a Coca Cola from the coke machine in the Second floor lunchroom.   
Lee was in the second floor lunchroom when Baker and Truly encountered him there....When they left he went outside and stood around gawking like 99% of the spectators and he talked to Bill Shelley his supervisor who told him there wouldn't be any work accomplished that afternoon.  That's when Lee decided to go to the Theater.....

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Re: "Out with Bill Shelley in front"
« Reply #247 on: November 09, 2018, 06:54:37 PM »


Offline Larry Trotter

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Re: "Out with Bill Shelley in front"
« Reply #248 on: November 09, 2018, 08:07:22 PM »
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Assuming Bookhout is FBI Agent James W Bookhout(1914-2009), and as you noted, "(Yes, but) it's expanded upon by Bookhout's report of the interrogation:", so still a matter of, he said he said. However, said report does indicate the SecondFloorLunchRoom Encounter did occur, and at about 12:31:30pm, CST, as in my conclusion, it has been well established that the SFLRE had to occur at about 12:31:00 to 12:32:00pm. And, said report indicates that LeeHarveyOswald was in the lunchroom and had just purchased s Coca-Cola from the soft drink machine when the encounter occurred.
According to the Bookhout Report, "Oswald stated that he took this coke down to the first floor and stood around and had lunch in the employees lunch room". In any event, I have to conclude that his lunch event, wherever it was, took place at about 12:35pm, and thru 12:45pm, based on the report. Also reportedly, "He thereafter went outside and stood around for five or ten minutes with foreman Bill Shelley, and thereafter went home". And, after standing around for five or ten minutes with foreman Bill Shelley, "He stated that he left work because, in his opinion, based upon remarks of Bill Shelley, he did not believe that there was going to be anymore work that day due to confusion in the building...".
Accordingly, as indicated by Mr Bookhout's report of the LHO interrogation, I have to conclude that if accurate, LHO did not depart the TexasSchoolBookDepository Building before about 12:50:00pm CST.
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Larry, I disagree with you .....    And Bookhout...  I believe Bookhout was confused about WHEN Lee said he ate his lunch....There is ample records to show that Lee said he ate his lunch in the first floor lunchroom ( Domino Room) and He saw Junior Jarman and Harold Norman come in to the building through the back door at about 12:26 .   He then went to the second floor lunchroom and obtained a Coca Cola from the coke machine in the Second floor lunchroom.   
Lee was in the second floor lunchroom when Baker and Truly encountered him there....When they left he went outside and stood around gawking like 99% of the spectators and he talked to Bill Shelley his supervisor who told him there wouldn't be any work accomplished that afternoon.  That's when Lee decided to go to the Theater.....
Walt, I am not sure what you disagree with me about, as the only thing I find substantially accurate in the report is the conclusion relative to the SecondFloorLunchRoomEncounter and it's timing, as my conclusion is based upon reliable evidentiary indicative information provided in testimony by two of the three participants of said encounter, RoyTruly,TSBD and MarrionBaker, DPD.
As noted early on, "so still, a matter of he said he said". And, I also thought that I qualified my comments with terms like "according to the report", "reportedly", "based on the report", and "if accurate". But, said comments were accompanied somewhat by estimates of timing required for reported statements indicating activities and/or event occurrences.

Offline Bill Chapman

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Re: "Out with Bill Shelley in front"
« Reply #249 on: November 09, 2018, 09:21:21 PM »
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Yes, but it's expanded upon by Bookhout's report of the interrogation:

"Oswald stated that on November 22, 1963, at the time of the search of the Texas School Book Depository building by Dallas police officers, he was on the second floor of said building, having just purchased a Coca-cola form the soft-drink machine, at which time a police officer came into the room with pistol drawn and asked him if he worked there. Mr. Truly was present and verified that he was an employee and the police officer thereafter left the room and continued through the building. Oswald stated that he took this Coke down to the first floor and stood around and had lunch in the employees lunch room. He thereafter went outside and stood around for five or ten minutes with foreman Bill Shelly, and thereafter went home. He stated that he left work because, in his opinion, based upon remarks of Bill Shelly, he did not believe that there was going to be anymore work that day due to the confusion in the building.. He stated after arriving at his residence, then he went to a movie where he was subsequently apprehended by the Dallas Police Department."

From this account, "out with Bill Shelley in front" occurred after the encounter with the officer in the lunch room.

Mr. BALL. On November 22, 1963, the day the President was shot, when is the last time you saw Oswald?
Mr. SHELLEY. It was 10 or 15 minutes before 12.
Mr. BALL. Where?
Mr. SHELLEY. On the first floor over near the telephone.
Mr. BALL. Did you ever see him again?
Mr. SHELLEY. At the police station when they brought him in.

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Re: "Out with Bill Shelley in front"
« Reply #249 on: November 09, 2018, 09:21:21 PM »