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Author Topic: "Out with Bill Shelley in front"  (Read 9690 times)

Offline Robin Unger

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"Out with Bill Shelley in front"
« on: September 30, 2018, 10:09:46 PM »
We know thanks to the Bookhout report that the the fritz notes "out with Bill Shelley in front" comment
does NOT refer to during the assassination Timeline, but actually refers to the Timeline just prior to Oswald leaving the TSBD and going home.

http://www.aarclibrary.org/publib/jfk/wc/wr/html/WCReport_0322a.htm



Crop from the Bookhout report


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"Out with Bill Shelley in front"
« on: September 30, 2018, 10:09:46 PM »


Offline Anthony Clayden

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Re: "Out with Bill Shelley in front"
« Reply #1 on: September 30, 2018, 11:57:32 PM »
Two things to note from this....

Firstly it has LHO claiming to purchase his Coke before the 2nd floor encounter. This makes both the descent timing tighter but also the spotting of LHO by Baker through the door window difficult.

Secondly, it has LHO claiming to not fleeing the scene but almost the reverse. From the 2nd floor, instead of the closest route out of the back of the building, he takes the route across the 2nd floor, possible points out the phone to a journalist, then proceed to mill outside of the TSBD with Shelley.

Offline Larry Trotter

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Re: "Out with Bill Shelley in front"
« Reply #2 on: October 01, 2018, 03:25:31 AM »
Two things to note from this....

Firstly it has LHO claiming to purchase his Coke before the 2nd floor encounter. This makes both the descent timing tighter but also the spotting of LHO by Baker through the door window difficult.

Secondly, it has LHO claiming to not fleeing the scene but almost the reverse. From the 2nd floor, instead of the closest route out of the back of the building, he takes the route across the 2nd floor, possible points out the phone to a journalist, then proceed to mill outside of the TSBD with Shelley.

At the time of the report of FBI SA JamesBookhout about the statement by LeeHarveyOswald, the evidentiary value of the timing of the soft drink purchase, whether before or after the SecondFloorLunchRoomEncounter, had not been established. And, it could very well be a mistake made in the noted timing as transcribed, but in any event the timing raises questions about the LeeHarveyOswald/LoneGunmanAssassin Theory, and eliminates the  LeeHarveyOswald/ PrayerManImage Theory.
« Last Edit: October 01, 2018, 03:27:27 AM by Larry Trotter »

Offline Colin Crow

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Re: "Out with Bill Shelley in front"
« Reply #3 on: October 01, 2018, 03:30:45 PM »
Must be the dumbest attempt ever. Not hard to check with Shelley, who was likely still in the vicinity.

Then again, Oswald was dead by the time it was dictated, so who knows what he meant.
« Last Edit: October 01, 2018, 04:29:21 PM by Colin Crow »

Online Walt Cakebread

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Re: "Out with Bill Shelley in front"
« Reply #4 on: October 01, 2018, 03:45:24 PM »
Two things to note from this....

Firstly it has LHO claiming to purchase his Coke before the 2nd floor encounter. This makes both the descent timing tighter but also the spotting of LHO by Baker through the door window difficult.

Secondly, it has LHO claiming to not fleeing the scene but almost the reverse. From the 2nd floor, instead of the closest route out of the back of the building, he takes the route across the 2nd floor, possible points out the phone to a journalist, then proceed to mill outside of the TSBD with Shelley.

Firstly it has LHO claiming to purchase his Coke before the 2nd floor encounter.

This statement is corroborated by Roy Truly when Truly talked to a reporter about a week after the coup d e'tat. Truly told the reporter that Lee was in the lunchroom drinking a coke at the time that he and Baker encountered Lee there.

instead of the closest route out of the back of the building, he takes the route across the 2nd floor

Where does it say that Lee took the route across the second floor?    It is commonly accepted that Lee traveled through the second floor office are and passed by Mrs Reid after he was dismissed as a non suspect by DPD officer Marrion Baker.

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Re: "Out with Bill Shelley in front"
« Reply #4 on: October 01, 2018, 03:45:24 PM »


Offline Mark A. Oblazney

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Re: "Out with Bill Shelley in front"
« Reply #5 on: October 01, 2018, 04:02:13 PM »
We know thanks to the Bookhout report that the the fritz notes "out with Bill Shelley in front" comment
does NOT refer to during the assassination Timeline, but actually refers to the Timeline just prior to Oswald leaving the TSBD and going home.

http://www.aarclibrary.org/publib/jfk/wc/wr/html/WCReport_0322a.htm



Crop from the Bookhout report


How many days after the shooting were these notes made, Robin?  More than five?

Online Brian Doyle

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"Out with Bill Shelley in front"
« Reply #6 on: October 01, 2018, 07:37:20 PM »
The document says the statement was dictated on Sunday the 24th...However if your input is limited to posting "I think it's a dude with a camera" you might miss that clearly indicated date on the document...

The problem with this statement is Shelley never spoke of lingering with Oswald on the front steps for that 5 to 10 minutes nor did anyone else...Nor did any camera equipment...This proves that Shelley was in on the cover-up and providing faulty information as was proven with his timing in the statements about when he left the steps...The Prayer Man cultists have parlayed Shelley's false claims and this mystery Oswald visit to the front steps into a full blown mania that extends to Prayer Man being Oswald...The Prayer Man crazies then transfer this imaginary 10 minutes on the steps to Oswald being Prayer Man...This mania has now corrupted the real evidence and led to it not being adequately discussed...

This then falls back to the DPD and Warren Commission who dealt with this glaring problem by suborning perjury and avoiding it...The Commission knew they had an explosive problem on their hands that they didn't want to agitate by inducing people to look in to it...If they had brought attention to this conflict they might have stirred people to come forward and say they never saw Oswald out there with Shelley...

More astute researchers will fathom that this alleged Shelley Oswald is being projected as the one who went back to the boarding house...He would have to be according to the official story...However Frazier witnessed the bus/taxi Oswald as having exited the rear of the Depository, walked up Houston to Elm, and then gone up Elm...It is likely that the most this Oswald could have done is been in the lobby being held back by the cops from exiting and then stayed there long enough to see Shelley come back to the front steps...In any case there is also scant witnessing to the Oswald in the lobby...But that is probably also due to the conflict between Mrs Reid's Oswald and this one...This serious problem was dealt with by the authorities by suppressing all Oswald witnessing...This suppression was happening at the time of Baker's affidavit by the way...

There's a woman witness whose name slips my mind who said Roger Craig's Oswald came from the back of the Depository...It seems to me that both Oswald's solved the problem by going to the back of the Depository and exiting there...

But to get back to Fritz's notes...It is still more than clear that Fritz was speaking chronologically and that the going out front with Bill Shelley happened after the Officer came in to 2nd floor and saw Oswald with a Coke...

The research community intentionally ignores the fact that in my interview with Sarah Stanton's grand daughter we established that Stanton saw Oswald with a Coke well prior to the assassination on the 2nd floor lunch room staircase landing...This new breakthrough evidence, that is so significant that it is being ignored by those who don't want to admit its value, shows that Oswald was situated by the 2nd floor lunch room much longer than the Fritz notes indicated...That he was almost certainly in the 2nd floor lunch room at the time of the shots...

It seems to me this evidence is showing that Lovelady was by the front steps after returning from the railyard but Shelley might have been in a place with a person that critically could not be divulged...The Bookhout and Fritz reports then become a semi-true mash of a story that could not be precisely told...One that is correctly indicated by the Frazier and Craig witnessings...

Another explanation for the confusion is the story Bookhout is translating may have been due to its source being Lee describing the doings of Harvey... 
« Last Edit: October 01, 2018, 08:12:51 PM by Brian Doyle »

Offline Mark A. Oblazney

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Re: "Out with Bill Shelley in front"
« Reply #7 on: October 02, 2018, 01:42:14 PM »
The document says the statement was dictated on Sunday the 24th...However if your input is limited to posting "I think it's a dude with a camera" you might miss that clearly indicated date on the document...

The problem with this statement is Shelley never spoke of lingering with Oswald on the front steps for that 5 to 10 minutes nor did anyone else...Nor did any camera equipment...This proves that Shelley was in on the cover-up and providing faulty information as was proven with his timing in the statements about when he left the steps...The Prayer Man cultists have parlayed Shelley's false claims and this mystery Oswald visit to the front steps into a full blown mania that extends to Prayer Man being Oswald...The Prayer Man crazies then transfer this imaginary 10 minutes on the steps to Oswald being Prayer Man...This mania has now corrupted the real evidence and led to it not being adequately discussed...

This then falls back to the DPD and Warren Commission who dealt with this glaring problem by suborning perjury and avoiding it...The Commission knew they had an explosive problem on their hands that they didn't want to agitate by inducing people to look in to it...If they had brought attention to this conflict they might have stirred people to come forward and say they never saw Oswald out there with Shelley...

More astute researchers will fathom that this alleged Shelley Oswald is being projected as the one who went back to the boarding house...He would have to be according to the official story...However Frazier witnessed the bus/taxi Oswald as having exited the rear of the Depository, walked up Houston to Elm, and then gone up Elm...It is likely that the most this Oswald could have done is been in the lobby being held back by the cops from exiting and then stayed there long enough to see Shelley come back to the front steps...In any case there is also scant witnessing to the Oswald in the lobby...But that is probably also due to the conflict between Mrs Reid's Oswald and this one...This serious problem was dealt with by the authorities by suppressing all Oswald witnessing...This suppression was happening at the time of Baker's affidavit by the way...

There's a woman witness whose name slips my mind who said Roger Craig's Oswald came from the back of the Depository...It seems to me that both Oswald's solved the problem by going to the back of the Depository and exiting there...

But to get back to Fritz's notes...It is still more than clear that Fritz was speaking chronologically and that the going out front with Bill Shelley happened after the Officer came in to 2nd floor and saw Oswald with a Coke...

The research community intentionally ignores the fact that in my interview with Sarah Stanton's grand daughter we established that Stanton saw Oswald with a Coke well prior to the assassination on the 2nd floor lunch room staircase landing...This new breakthrough evidence, that is so significant that it is being ignored by those who don't want to admit its value, shows that Oswald was situated by the 2nd floor lunch room much longer than the Fritz notes indicated...That he was almost certainly in the 2nd floor lunch room at the time of the shots...

It seems to me this evidence is showing that Lovelady was by the front steps after returning from the railyard but Shelley might have been in a place with a person that critically could not be divulged...The Bookhout and Fritz reports then become a semi-true mash of a story that could not be precisely told...One that is correctly indicated by the Frazier and Craig witnessings...

Another explanation for the confusion is the story Bookhout is translating may have been due to its source being Lee describing the doings of Harvey...
Another explanation for the confusion is that Brian Albert Yates Doyle does not know what the heck he is talking about.  He just goes on and  on and on.......... it wasn't stanton, it was a dude taking pictures with a camera.  Your conclusions are defective, Albut.  You are wrong, in my opinion.  So there.

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Re: "Out with Bill Shelley in front"
« Reply #7 on: October 02, 2018, 01:42:14 PM »


Online Brian Doyle

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"Out with Bill Shelley in front"
« Reply #8 on: October 02, 2018, 05:00:04 PM »
He says while ignoring and not being able to articulate the intelligent evidence that proves Sarah Stanton is without a doubt Prayer Man...That evidence includes wide hips and a chubby forearm that are provable on a photo analysis basis...And buttons seen on Prayer Man's garment that can't be on any clothing Oswald owned and have to be those of a female garment like a dress...

Sarah's grand daughter Wanda agreed Prayer Man is her grand mother Sarah...Wanda said "She's the biggest person out there so she has to be my grand mother"...There were only two choices, Stanton or Pauline Sanders...I'm sure if we were to find the vital records of Sanders we would find she is the short height of the woman Stancak found in the back row...

The best proof that Prayer Man is Stanton, (besides perfectly matching her known height), is Buell Frazier's identification of her when Gloria Calvery got to the steps...Mr O'Blazney has no talent in photo analysis so he simply adopts the "opinion" of those he feels safe agreeing with as a popular majority...Myself, being the more credible researcher who actually sought and located Stanton's relatives and interviewed them, found information that proves what we already knew - that Prayer Man was Stanton...I also spoke to Chris Calvery...He is the one who directed me to his mother as seen in Betzner 3 and correctly identified her...This made me realize that Larsen was correct in his identification of Calvery on the steps in Darnell...I hadn't been paying attention to Larsen's claim because he was a Prayer Man as Oswald supporter so I didn't bother to read his claims any further...Turns out he was correct and Calvery was the woman in a dark scarf seen on the steps with the woman in all white (Reed? Thornton?)...This then established the timing of Frazier's witnessing of Calvery at the steps and proved he was talking to Sarah at that moment... One look at Couch/Darnell shows Frazier focused on and talking to Prayer Man at the exact moment he described talking to Stanton in his interviews...OBlazney is moronically mute on all this...His offerings are beneath the Mendoza Line and don't qualify for being taken seriously...

The main Prayer Man advocate is lying and saying Calvery has not been identified but he is doing so by contemptuously ignoring Chris Calvery and his positive identification of his mother Gloria...If we could get Betzner 3 scanned we would see Gloria in full clarity as Tall Woman (the same woman seen on the steps in Larsen's spotting of Calvery)...Unlike the childish Mr OBlazney, I actually called Betzner's step daughter and tried to get this done... 

Prayer Man is off-topic to the Fritz notes...I believe I have made some good observations that also appear to be over Mr OBlazney's head... 

Offline Larry Trotter

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Re: "Out with Bill Shelley in front"
« Reply #9 on: October 02, 2018, 09:27:16 PM »
At the time of the SecondFloorLunchRoomEncounter, the person, aka LeeHarveyOswald, encountered by DPD Officer ML Baker and BuildingSuperintendent RS Truly, had either just purchased a BottledSoftDrink from a BottledSoftDrinkMachine, or said person was about to make said purchase. That purchase could have taken as little as 5 seconds, and should have easily taken less than 10 seconds, while inside the LunchRoom.
In 1963, the use of coin operated BottledSoftDrinkMachines/Coolers was quite normal in locations where the empty glass bottles could be returned to a container near the machine.

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Re: "Out with Bill Shelley in front"
« Reply #9 on: October 02, 2018, 09:27:16 PM »


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