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Author Topic: In 54 years has it ever been proven that CE399 is the bullet found at Parkland?  (Read 25731 times)

Offline John Iacoletti

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Now we are getting somewhere. You believe that the bullet found by Daryl C. Tomlinson is from another gunshot victim (not Governor Connally) treated at Parkland Hospital. Why didn't you say that before instead of persisting with "being cute"?

This is why it's so frustrating trying to have a conversation with most LNers.  You're asked for evidence that CE 399 was the bullet found at Parkland and you immediately try to shift the burden by creating a strawman position, "the bullet found by Tomlinson is from another gunshot victim" and demand proof for that instead.

Why is it so hard to just admit, "no, there is no evidence that CE399 is the bullet found at Parkland".  It would be nice if there was, but there isn't.

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Offline Gary Craig

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When did J. Edgar Hoover ever say any such stupid thing about CE567/569 (the limo fragments)? (Although, given these incredibly dumb things uttered by Mr. Hoover in late November of 1963, I guess it is, indeed, quite possible that Hoover could have also been clueless with respect to the origin of the limo fragments as well.)

Anyway, those front-seat limousine fragments---both of them!---were positively determined by Hoover's FBI to have been fired from the C2766 Carcano rifle. No doubt about it. And it wasn't just the FBI's Robert Frazier who determined that fact. The independent firearms examiner from Illinois---Joseph Nicol---verified it as well....

Mr. NICOL -- "It is my opinion that the same weapon that fired Commission's Exhibit 572 [two test bullets fired from the C2766 rifle] also fired the projectiles in Commission's Exhibits 569, 567, and 399."

Also See:

http://jfk-archives.blogspot.com/2011/09/ce567-and-ce569.html

http://jfk-archives.blogspot.com/#Darrell-Tomlinson-And-CE399


When the defendant has no legal representation challenging the prosecution's (WC) expert witnesses they
can get away with saying whatever they want. That doesn't make their opinions correct. They wouldn't have been put on the stand if what they said didn't support the (WC) case.



11/23/63
J. Edgar Hoover:
I just wanted to let you know of a development which I think is very important in connection with this case - this man in Dallas (Lee Harvey Oswald). We, of course, charged him with the murder of the President. The evidence that they have at the present time is not very, very strong. We have just discovered the place where the gun was purchased and the shipment of the gun from Chicago to Dallas, to a post office box in Dallas, to a man - no, to a woman by the name of "A. Hidell."... We had it flown up last night, and our laboratory here is making an examination of it.

Lyndon B. Johnson: Yes, I told the Secret Service to see that that got taken care of.

J. Edgar Hoover: That's right. We have the gun and we have the bullet. There was only one full bullet that was found. That was on the stretcher that the President was on. It apparently had fallen out when they massaged his heart, and we have that one. We have what we call slivers, which are not very valuable in the identification. As soon as we finish the testing of the gun for fingerprints ... we will then be able to test the one bullet we have with the gun. But the important thing is that this gun was bought in Chicago on a money order. Cost twenty-one dollars, and it seems almost impossible to think that for twenty-one dollars you could kill the President of the United States.

Offline John Iacoletti

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And it wasn't just the FBI's Robert Frazier who determined that fact. The independent firearms examiner from Illinois---Joseph Nicol---verified it as well....

Is this the same Joseph Nicol that the WC trotted out to identify the Tippit slug after Cortlandt Cunningham didn't give them the answer they were looking for?  Is there another example anywhere in Warren Commission lore of the WC getting a second outside opinion on an FBI analysis?

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Offline John Iacoletti

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The Secret Service found the fragments when they searched the car at the White House garage, and then turned them over to Bob Frazier at the FBI.

Actually one of them was found by a Navy Corpsman.

Allegedly. 

And Frazier got them from another FBI agent, Bartlett, not from the Secret Service.

Allegedly.

But where and when was any of this documented?  How exactly did Bartlett get them to begin with?

Offline Bill Brown

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Is this the same Joseph Nicol that the WC trotted out to identify the Tippit slug after Cortlandt Cunningham didn't give them the answer they were looking for?  Is there another example anywhere in Warren Commission lore of the WC getting a second outside opinion on an FBI analysis?

Quote
Is this the same Joseph Nicol that the WC trotted out to identify the Tippit slug after Cortlandt Cunningham didn't give them the answer they were looking for?

Are you implying that Nicol was giving the Commission the answers they wanted, regardless of the truth?  If so, can you support it?  If you're not implying such a thing, then what is your point?

Quote
Is there another example anywhere in Warren Commission lore of the WC getting a second outside opinion on an FBI analysis?

Sebastian Latona (supervisor of the latent fingerprint section of the identification division, FBI) and Arthur Mandella (fingerprint expert, New York City Police Department).

In the sniper's nest, there were four boxes used in connection with the shooting.  One large box containing books and then two of the smaller "Rolling Readers" boxes atop the large box of books.  The fourth box was on the floor behind the stack of three,
obviously used as a seat.

On one of the Rolling Readers boxes at the window, Oswald's left palmprint and his right index fingerprint were found.

The employees laying the floor moved the large boxes of books from the west end of the floor over to the east end.  However, the "Rolling Readers" boxes did not need to be moved, i.e. they weren't over on the west end where the new floor was being placed down.  The two "Rolling readers" boxes in the sniper's nest were originally about three aisles over from the sniper's nest window and were taken to that window for the purposes of being used as a gun rest.  The "Rolling Readers" boxes didn't contain books.

On the box on the floor, the one used as a seat, Day, using powder, dusted the box and developed a palmprint.  Latona examined the print and found it to be from Oswald's right palm.  Because Day used a powder to develop the print, Latona stated that not too long a time had passed between the time the print was placed on the box and the time it was developed by Day.  Powder cannot develop prints beyond a certain point in time.

FBI experiments showed that twenty-four hours was a likely maximum time between the print being placed on the box and the time it was developed by the powder.  However, Latona would only state that he could only testify with certainty that the print was less than three days old.

Arthur Mandella (fingerprint expert, NYPD), examined the prints and agreed that they belonged to Oswald.  Mandella was of the opinion that the palmprint developed by Day (using the powder) from the box on the floor (the one used as a seat) was probably made within a day to a day and a half of the examination made on the 22nd.

Oswald could obviously have handled the boxes as part of his normal work duties.  Fingerprints were taken from the twelve Depository employees who may have had cause to handle the boxes (found in the sniper's nest) as part of their normal work duties as well.

Other identifiable prints were developed on the boxes.  These prints were compared with the fingerprints of all other employees as well as law enforcement personnel who handled the boxes.  None of the identifiable prints belonged to any of the other employees.

Point being, the larger box on the sniper's nest floor used as a seat, was moved by the floor laying crew at some point earlier in the week.  Day dusted this box with powder and developed a palmprint, which Latona said belonged to Oswald.  The process of using the powder develops prints based on perspiration and therefore would not find prints older than one to three days (time frame dependent on which fingerprint expert you listen to).

While it's possible to handle the boxes and not leave a print at all, it's also likely as possible that Oswald was the only person to handle that box at any point in time past Tuesday the 19th (per Latona's three days out).  Or, if you go by Mandella of the NYPD, Oswald could have been the only person to handle that box after Wednesday the 20th.  If you go by the FBI's experiments, Oswald was possibly the only person to handle that box after Thursday the 21st.

Oswald's prints on the boxes prove he was in that window, but they can't prove when he was there exactly.

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Offline Ray Mitcham

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Bill, I think you would agree only that his palm print shows that he touched the box, not that he touched it in the window area.

Offline John Iacoletti

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Sebastian Latona (supervisor of the latent fingerprint section of the identification division, FBI) and Arthur Mandella (fingerprint expert, New York City Police Department).

 Thumb1: Thanks!

As for the rest of that, "the one used as a seat" and "taken to that window for the purposes of being used as a gun rest" are pure speculation.

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Offline Rob Caprio

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Yes, that's pretty simple.  And it's a false dichotomy.  It could be neither.

What is the "neither"?

What's so great about forming a conclusion without the evidence to support one?  Is that supposed to be rational?

You're confusing "evidence" with "disputing evidence".

Based on the available facts there are two options.

-- CE399 fell out of the superficial wound in Governor Connally's thigh having been fired in C2766 at Dealey Plaza (12:30 pm CST).

OR

CE399 was placed on a stretcher at Parkland Hospital by a person sometime after 12:30 CST. The person was associated with plotters who fired a bullet in C2766 at some earlier time at a location other than Dealey Plaza.

Which is it John?

Why not use the official evidence to show that it was found on JBC's stretcher? I did and it doesn't show this.

See reply #59.

https://www.jfkassassinationforum.com/index.php/topic,1299.50.html