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Author Topic: In 54 years has it ever been proven that CE399 is the bullet found at Parkland?  (Read 4831 times)

Offline John Iacoletti

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And it wasn't just the FBI's Robert Frazier who determined that fact. The independent firearms examiner from Illinois---Joseph Nicol---verified it as well....

Is this the same Joseph Nicol that the WC trotted out to identify the Tippit slug after Cortlandt Cunningham didn't give them the answer they were looking for?  Is there another example anywhere in Warren Commission lore of the WC getting a second outside opinion on an FBI analysis?

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Offline John Iacoletti

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The Secret Service found the fragments when they searched the car at the White House garage, and then turned them over to Bob Frazier at the FBI.

Actually one of them was found by a Navy Corpsman.

Allegedly. 

And Frazier got them from another FBI agent, Bartlett, not from the Secret Service.

Allegedly.

But where and when was any of this documented?  How exactly did Bartlett get them to begin with?

Offline Bill Brown

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Is this the same Joseph Nicol that the WC trotted out to identify the Tippit slug after Cortlandt Cunningham didn't give them the answer they were looking for?  Is there another example anywhere in Warren Commission lore of the WC getting a second outside opinion on an FBI analysis?

Quote
Is this the same Joseph Nicol that the WC trotted out to identify the Tippit slug after Cortlandt Cunningham didn't give them the answer they were looking for?

Are you implying that Nicol was giving the Commission the answers they wanted, regardless of the truth?  If so, can you support it?  If you're not implying such a thing, then what is your point?

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Is there another example anywhere in Warren Commission lore of the WC getting a second outside opinion on an FBI analysis?

Sebastian Latona (supervisor of the latent fingerprint section of the identification division, FBI) and Arthur Mandella (fingerprint expert, New York City Police Department).

In the sniper's nest, there were four boxes used in connection with the shooting.  One large box containing books and then two of the smaller "Rolling Readers" boxes atop the large box of books.  The fourth box was on the floor behind the stack of three,
obviously used as a seat.

On one of the Rolling Readers boxes at the window, Oswald's left palmprint and his right index fingerprint were found.

The employees laying the floor moved the large boxes of books from the west end of the floor over to the east end.  However, the "Rolling Readers" boxes did not need to be moved, i.e. they weren't over on the west end where the new floor was being placed down.  The two "Rolling readers" boxes in the sniper's nest were originally about three aisles over from the sniper's nest window and were taken to that window for the purposes of being used as a gun rest.  The "Rolling Readers" boxes didn't contain books.

On the box on the floor, the one used as a seat, Day, using powder, dusted the box and developed a palmprint.  Latona examined the print and found it to be from Oswald's right palm.  Because Day used a powder to develop the print, Latona stated that not too long a time had passed between the time the print was placed on the box and the time it was developed by Day.  Powder cannot develop prints beyond a certain point in time.

FBI experiments showed that twenty-four hours was a likely maximum time between the print being placed on the box and the time it was developed by the powder.  However, Latona would only state that he could only testify with certainty that the print was less than three days old.

Arthur Mandella (fingerprint expert, NYPD), examined the prints and agreed that they belonged to Oswald.  Mandella was of the opinion that the palmprint developed by Day (using the powder) from the box on the floor (the one used as a seat) was probably made within a day to a day and a half of the examination made on the 22nd.

Oswald could obviously have handled the boxes as part of his normal work duties.  Fingerprints were taken from the twelve Depository employees who may have had cause to handle the boxes (found in the sniper's nest) as part of their normal work duties as well.

Other identifiable prints were developed on the boxes.  These prints were compared with the fingerprints of all other employees as well as law enforcement personnel who handled the boxes.  None of the identifiable prints belonged to any of the other employees.

Point being, the larger box on the sniper's nest floor used as a seat, was moved by the floor laying crew at some point earlier in the week.  Day dusted this box with powder and developed a palmprint, which Latona said belonged to Oswald.  The process of using the powder develops prints based on perspiration and therefore would not find prints older than one to three days (time frame dependent on which fingerprint expert you listen to).

While it's possible to handle the boxes and not leave a print at all, it's also likely as possible that Oswald was the only person to handle that box at any point in time past Tuesday the 19th (per Latona's three days out).  Or, if you go by Mandella of the NYPD, Oswald could have been the only person to handle that box after Wednesday the 20th.  If you go by the FBI's experiments, Oswald was possibly the only person to handle that box after Thursday the 21st.

Oswald's prints on the boxes prove he was in that window, but they can't prove when he was there exactly.

Offline Ray Mitcham

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Bill, I think you would agree only that his palm print shows that he touched the box, not that he touched it in the window area.

Offline John Iacoletti

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Sebastian Latona (supervisor of the latent fingerprint section of the identification division, FBI) and Arthur Mandella (fingerprint expert, New York City Police Department).

 Thumb1: Thanks!

As for the rest of that, "the one used as a seat" and "taken to that window for the purposes of being used as a gun rest" are pure speculation.

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Offline Rob Caprio

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Yes, that's pretty simple.  And it's a false dichotomy.  It could be neither.

What is the "neither"?

What's so great about forming a conclusion without the evidence to support one?  Is that supposed to be rational?

You're confusing "evidence" with "disputing evidence".

Based on the available facts there are two options.

-- CE399 fell out of the superficial wound in Governor Connally's thigh having been fired in C2766 at Dealey Plaza (12:30 pm CST).

OR

CE399 was placed on a stretcher at Parkland Hospital by a person sometime after 12:30 CST. The person was associated with plotters who fired a bullet in C2766 at some earlier time at a location other than Dealey Plaza.

Which is it John?

Why not use the official evidence to show that it was found on JBC's stretcher? I did and it doesn't show this.

See reply #59.

https://www.jfkassassinationforum.com/index.php/topic,1299.50.html

Offline Rob Caprio

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The Secret Service found the fragments when they searched the car at the White House garage, and then turned them over to Bob Frazier at the FBI.

Does that fact somehow make those fragments worthless as evidence in this case, Martin?

Yes since neither the FBI or SS had jurisdiction for the crime.

Offline Allan Fritzke

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No you didn't


More information please... this statement is too vague.

Oh boy, you really are not getting any of this..... I don't give a damn what bullet Tomlinson found at Parkland. Being in Texas, Parkland was known for treating gunshot wounds. Whatever bullet Tomlinson found - and there isn't even a conclusive answer on which strecher he found the bullet - it could have come from anywhere. What I need you to show is that the bullet he found is the same one that's now in evidence as CE399. Well, can you?

Now we are getting somewhere. You believe that the bullet found by Daryl C. Tomlinson is from another gunshot victim (not Governor Connally) treated at Parkland Hospital. Why didn't you say that before instead of persisting with "being cute"?

It's extremely unlikely that the "Tomlinson bullet" was from another gunshot victim not Governor Connally's thigh.

1.) It would be an incredible coincidence that another gunshot victim hit by a rifle bullet was treated at Parkland Hospital around the same time as Governor Connally.

2.) If a gunshot victim was treated at Parkland a day or more before Connally: Is it unlikely that the bullet would not have been discovered promptly. Hygiene is paramount at hospitals. The sheets on "stretchers" would be changed frequently. The bullet would have been discovered by staff that change the sheets on stretchers.

I have no opinion. That's why I asked the question.

Actually you do have an opinion. It's inconceivable that you would not. It's just that you refused to reveal it until pressured to do so. Your opinion is that another gunshot victim was hit by a rifle bullet, treated at Parkland Hospital, and that missile is the one found by Tomlinson.

I don't believe your unfounded claim that the "Tomlinson bullet" is from another gunshot victim.

I conclude that the "Tomlinson bullet" was the one that was lodged in Governor Connally's thigh wound and is CE399. Why? The proximity factor.

-- The proximity in time between the assassination shots in Dealey Plaza and the bullet's discovery at Parkland Hospital: less than an hour.[/i][/u]


-- The physical proximity (short distance) between the shooting location (Dealey Plaza) and the stretcher at Parkland Hospital. The bullet traveled in the Presidential limousine to Parkland Hospital and moved to the stretcher with Governor Connally. Daryl C. Tomlinson found a bullet after hearing it fall off a stretcher and hit the floor.

Now that you have presented an opinion (bullet from another gunshot victim) about the identity of "Tomlinson bullet": There remains the other options to "consider" and make a final decision as to which is more likely to be true.

1.) CE399 is the "Tomlinson bullet" and is the missile that lodged in Governor Connally's thigh. It was fired in C2766 at Dealey Plaza (12:30 pm CST).

2.) CE399 is not the "Tomlinson bullet". The latter was inadvertently lost by law enforcement. CE399 is a replacement for the "TB" and was fired in the rifle C2766 by an agent of the FBI sometime after 22 November 1963.

3.) CE399 is the "Tomlinson bullet" but was not fired in Dealey Plaza at 12:30 pm CST. It was fired in C2766 on the morning of 22 November 1963 (or on an earlier date) at an unknown location by an unknown person. Conspirators planted CE399 at Parkland Hospital to frame Lee Harvey Oswald.

There is no evidence for #2 or #3. Therefore by a process of elimination: #1 is the truth.

I'm keen to know what you now "conclude", Martin.

Oh another thing: How often do I have to keep doing work that should be your responsibility?

Your actually ignoring the smoke and mirrors argument associated with having a bullet found and then switched out for another.  Introducing a piece of evidence early on and then calling it into play later is a sinister plot that was being played out here.   They needed someone to see something roll of a stretcher.   I could drop a piece of evidence out of my pocket and call attention to it by a bystander - even innocently like glancing at it with my eyes and having him find it first!  If the bullet found was not necessary for a magic bullet theory to come out later, that reporting would never have to be used later.     We have several people that said it was found in the car at the same time.    Lots of smoke and mirrors are called into play.

I watched a good analogy played out where the MSM propaganda machine was used years later.    Every one has long forgotten the collapse of the Twin Towers - I still follow!    Years ago, one of the major network anchors made a statement to the effect that they just had a video clip of Mayor Guilliani holding the 2 black boxes from the two airplanes that crashed into the towers and that they were about too show it - "right after the commercial break".   Then this anchor retracted the statement and said he didn't have any video and apologized profusely for that error.  However, he ended his apology with a statement that Guilliani was holding a picture of a black box (never shown on broadcast!) - really just continuing to sow the seeds of deception to be used later!   This sort of thing of introducing and then retracting statements are smoke and mirrors tactics used to deceive and cover up the truth.  This went on with the JFK investigation as well and is a good coverup!  Create enough doubt and you have a hard time believing anything.  Conspiracy at its finest!
« Last Edit: October 05, 2018, 07:57:11 PM by Allan Fritzke »

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Online Martin Weidmann

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I still haven't seen any evidence that shows the bullet now in evidence as CE399 was ever at Parkland Hospital.

Why is that?

Online Martin Weidmann

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I still haven't seen any evidence that shows the bullet now in evidence as CE399 was ever at Parkland Hospital.

Why is that?

Bump

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