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Author Topic: If a bullet didn't go through JFK, then exactly how did Connally get hit?  (Read 49960 times)

Online Andrew Mason

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Re: If a bullet didn't go through JFK, then exactly how did Connally get hit?
« Reply #304 on: September 26, 2018, 11:05:10 PM »
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Maybe like she said, she heard a shot.

Seriously, that's your argument? She was running at a fair gallop and was trying to process what she heard and you expect her to stop on a dime, you try it.

No. My argument is that the evidence is consistent and overwhelming that the first shot was much later - just after the VP car had completed the turn (VP car occupants) when the VP security car was completing the turn or parallel to the TSBD (VP secuity car occupants), or a bit after z186 (photographers Robert Hughes and Hugh Betzner) or just before z202 (Phil Willis) or about when the President was opposite the Thornton Freeway sign (z200 - TE Moore,. Linda Willis).  There is no evidence that conflicts with that evidence.  So the basis for your conclusion, which conflicts with all that evidence, may not be reliable.

Rosemary Willis said, many years later, that she recalls stopping and turning her head in the direction of the sound and seeing pigeons fly from the top of the TSBD.  She did not say how fast she was running when she heard the shot. She did not say whether she had started to slow down before the first shot.  I doubt she would have remembered such fine details.  She just said she stopped and turned to look back to where the sound had come from.   She is running trying to keep up with the motorcade and then starts slowing down when she reaches the grass - but she does not stop until z199. She turns her head in the direction of the TSBD rather suddenly and noticeably from z202-206. A shot at z195 is consistent with that shot timing.  It may also be consistent with a shot at z155 and a slow reaction. The zfilm by itself does not provide conclusive evidence one way or the other.   

You have to look at all the evidence. And when you do, you have to conclude that the witnesses in the motorcade, along Elm St. were either not independent and, for some common reason said that the first shot was 3 seconds after when it really was and they simply forgot that JFK kept waving for 3 second before the next shot,  OR they were correct that the first shot was after z190.
« Last Edit: September 26, 2018, 11:07:29 PM by Andrew Mason »

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Re: If a bullet didn't go through JFK, then exactly how did Connally get hit?
« Reply #304 on: September 26, 2018, 11:05:10 PM »


Offline Allan Fritzke

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Re: If a bullet didn't go through JFK, then exactly how did Connally get hit?
« Reply #305 on: September 27, 2018, 12:00:52 AM »
Allan, I'm not an "Oswald Did It" nut, but I'm not convinced that Willis shows the umbrella behind the sign.
Thanks for the help!    Jerry has enlightened me. Thanks!

I am still eagerly waiting to hear why you think Willis isn't showing the umbrella behind the sign.  Where do you come up with that?  Open your eyes man!  Zapruder is taken the picture from the pillar above and behind.   His camera shows the umbrella halfway up the sign and on the other side - you need glasses!




If you look at the blowup, that bush halfway up the sign looks like the remnants of the real umbrella position, but the sign looks clean where it should have come across.   That position looks like where you would expect to see the umbrella coming across at that level.  The lack of the Cuban on the other side of the "umbrella holder" is glaringly missing from the photograph.  It looks like if you combine the "2 umbrella half moons" present in the photograph, you could actually make a full umbrella again!   There also is a fuzzy area just below the sign post that looks suspicious.   If anything I would guess that the man in the black suit with the hat could possibly be the real umbrella man and man pictured holding the umbrella in his picture is the Cuban?   Things are so modified on the Willis photograph that it is pure speculation on my part.   It needs to match the Zapruder Film frames and it clearly doesn't.

When I see Jerry Organ's post about Willis, it makes a lot of sense. He is trying to capitalize on the event and was selling slides.  He might have been a bit of a photograph expert as well or had someone helping him.  Someone who wanted to show this man well away from the bullet that struck JFK in the neck!

« Last Edit: September 27, 2018, 12:15:45 AM by Allan Fritzke »

Offline John Iacoletti

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Re: If a bullet didn't go through JFK, then exactly how did Connally get hit?
« Reply #306 on: September 27, 2018, 12:15:22 AM »
I am still eagerly waiting to hear why you think Willis isn't showing the umbrella behind the sign.  Where do you come up with that?

Why do you think it is behind the sign in Willis?

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Re: If a bullet didn't go through JFK, then exactly how did Connally get hit?
« Reply #306 on: September 27, 2018, 12:15:22 AM »


Offline Allan Fritzke

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Re: If a bullet didn't go through JFK, then exactly how did Connally get hit?
« Reply #307 on: September 27, 2018, 12:34:11 AM »
Why do you think it is behind the sign in Willis?
I actually asked you why you think it is in the front!  That is rhetorical logic your using - don't BS me.  Already I laid out the reasons for my argument.  You just want to throw it back again in my face in a circular argument?   Break the circle and come out with a meaningful argument.
Okay if you need it repeated, I will tell you again and then wait, maybe you will tell me how Zapruder took the picture from below his level from a gutter!    Look at the position of Zapruder's camera from the pillar up above him.     Compare what we see in his camera - an umbrella half way up the sign and at front with what you see in Willis' photograph.    Zapruder is above him in an elevated position - repeated again!  It is a matter of elevation unless the grassy knoll and Zapruder's perch is below the umbrella man!  I don't think it could be called a knoll then!  Where is the Cuban?

 
« Last Edit: September 27, 2018, 12:36:48 AM by Allan Fritzke »

Offline John Iacoletti

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Re: If a bullet didn't go through JFK, then exactly how did Connally get hit?
« Reply #308 on: September 27, 2018, 12:38:29 AM »
I actually asked you why you think it is in the front!  That is rhetorical logic your using - don't BS me.

I said I'm not convinced.  And you've presented nothing to change that.  You just declared that the umbrella is behind the sign in Willis.  You didn't present any reason for thinking so.  And it has nothing to do with Zapruder's level.  Incidentally, Willis 5 doesn't correspond with Z225.



 
« Last Edit: September 27, 2018, 12:40:31 AM by John Iacoletti »

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Re: If a bullet didn't go through JFK, then exactly how did Connally get hit?
« Reply #308 on: September 27, 2018, 12:38:29 AM »


Offline John Mytton

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Re: If a bullet didn't go through JFK, then exactly how did Connally get hit?
« Reply #309 on: September 27, 2018, 12:58:27 AM »

If you look at the blowup, that bush halfway up the sign looks like the remnants of the real umbrella position, but the sign looks clean where it should have come across. 

I think the bush halfway up the sign is just a bush. In the following gif we see the same bush photographed from further down Elm street so the perspective is a little out but you get the general idea.



JohnM

Offline Howard Gee

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Re: If a bullet didn't go through JFK, then exactly how did Connally get hit?
« Reply #310 on: September 27, 2018, 01:21:18 AM »
Oh my, the sinister Umbrella Man, AGAIN !

We haven't dealt with the Umbrella Man lunacy for a while.

Yippee.


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Re: If a bullet didn't go through JFK, then exactly how did Connally get hit?
« Reply #310 on: September 27, 2018, 01:21:18 AM »


Online Jerry Organ

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Re: If a bullet didn't go through JFK, then exactly how did Connally get hit?
« Reply #311 on: September 27, 2018, 03:46:36 AM »
Allen, I believe it a line-of-sight difference between Zapruder and Willis.



This is the Charles L. Bronson photo, taken about Z225-227. The Stemmons sign is roughly edgewise to Bronson's camera-view.
Willis's viewpoint had most of the Umbrella Man beneath the bottom of the Stemmons sign. Zapruder's view towards Umbrella Man was more elevated. And so in the Z-film the umbrella was seen higher up along the edge of the sign. As well, the umbrella itself was raised more (maybe a foot higher??) in the Zapruder film and Bronson photo than it was in the Willis photo.

I see no reason to believe the Umbrella Man and Waving Man changed where they stood between Willis05 photo and the Zapruder film. There was some space between them. The Zapruder film shows the Waving Man away from the Stemmons sign because he stood on the street edge of the sidewalk while the Umbrella Man stood on the top of the raised curbstone between the sidewalk and the grassy slope.