Conspiracy of the Three Stooges

[Colin Crow]

What do you mean for "some reason", Williams came up to see Norman and Jarman and after politely excusing himself BRW went downstairs to hang out with who he originally intended to be with.

JohnM

Can you provide any evidence that Williams came up to the 6th floor to see Norman and Jarman? They were at the front of the building until about 12.20 and walked across Houston with Givens before changing their minds and heading for the 5th floor. Williams did claim eventually that Arce and Lovelady said that they might view the parade from the 6th floor.

Mr. BALL. You say you went back upstairs. Where did you go?
Mr. WILLIAMS. I went back up to the sixth floor.
Mr. BALL. Why did you go to the sixth floor?
Mr. WILLIAMS. Well, at the time everybody was talking like they was going to watch from the sixth floor. I think Billy Lovelady said he wanted to watch from up there. And also my friend; this Spanish boy, by the name of Danny Arce, we had agreed at first to come back up to the sixth floor. So I thought everybody was going to be on the sixth floor.
Mr. BALL. Did anybody go back?
Mr. WILLIAMS. Nobody came back up. So I just left.

[Colin Crow]

While we wait for JohnM to substantiate his claim that Williams came up to the 6th floor to see Norman and Jarman here is some testimony relating to the events after the three moved to the west windows on the 5th floor.

Mr. BALL. After you stood at the west window for a while, what did you do?
Mr. WILLIAMS. After we stood at the west window for a while, we decided to go down. Then we left.
Mr. BALL. How did you go down?
Mr. WILLIAMS. By stairs.
Mr. BALL. Where did you go?
Mr. WILLIAMS. We went to the fourth floor first. Then we paused for a minute there, where we saw these women looking out of the window. Then we decided to go down to the first floor, and we ran on down.
Mr. BALL. When you got to the first floor, what did you see there?
Mr. McCLOY. How did you get to the first floor?
Mr. WILLIAMS. By stairs.
Mr. DULLES. There were some people on the fourth floor?
Mr. WILLIAMS. Yes, sir. I remember seeing maybe two or three women standing in the window, looking out the window.
Mr. DULLES. Looking out the window?
Mr. WILLIAMS. Yes, sir.
Mr. McCLOY. Which stairway did they take, west or east?
Mr. BALL. There was only one stairway, and that is the one in the corner. Did you run down stairs?
Mr. WILLIAMS. Yes, sir; we ran.
Mr. BALL. When you got to the first floor, what did you see?
Mr. WILLIAMS. When we arrived to the first floor, the first thing I noticed was that the policemen had rushed in. I think some firemen came in with a water hose. And then the next thing that happened, these detectives, or maybe FBI--anyway, they stopped us all and they said, "Do you work here?" And we told them yes. And they took our name, address, and they searched everybody. And then the other fellow--I think one fellow asked whether we had been working upstairs. I think we told him yes. They got out all the fellows I think that was working on the sixth floor at the time, and they took us all down to the courthouse, I think, and we had to fill out some affidavits and things.
Mr. BALL. You made out an affidavit there?
Mr. WILLIAMS. Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. Did you go out of the building shortly after you came downstairs?
Mr. WILLIAMS. They wouldn't let anybody out of the building.
Mr. BALL. How long after you came down from the first floor were you taken over to the Police Department?
Mr. WILLIAMS. I couldn't give you the exact time, but it wasn't long.
Mr. BALL. You can't give me any estimate in minutes?
Mr. WILLIAMS. No, sir; I would not want to say.
Mr. DULLES. Did you see Lee Oswald at any time during this period?
Mr. WILLIAMS. No, sir; I don't remember seeing him.
Mr. BALL. Were the police with you?
Mr. WILLIAMS. Yes; they were.
Mr. BALL. Were your two friends with you, Jarman and--
Mr. WILLIAMS. No; they wasn't with me. First I think they took me and another fellow, Danny-- they took us in one car. Then they took some other fellows in another car, and then another car, I think.
Mr. BALL. You were with Danny Arce and one or two police officers?
Mr. WILLIAMS. Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. Anybody else?
Mr. WILLIAMS. That's all.
Mr. BALL. Do you know when Norman and Jarman went out?
Mr. WILLIAMS. Well, at the time I don't think Norman and Jarman came down right then. They brought Bill Shelley and Bill Lovelady, a fellow by the name of Jack Dougherty, and Charles Givens later on, they brought them right behind us.
Mr. BALL. When you left the first floor with the officers, was Norman still there?
Mr. WILLIAMS. Yes, sir; he was in the building.
Mr. BALL. And was Jarman still there?
Mr. WILLIAMS. Yes, sir.

Just a note that they didn?t immediately get all the men who had been on the 6th floor that day.

Those not taken to give affidavit were,

Oswald - not in building

Givens - not in building

Norman - in building but not taken

Frazier - presumably in building but not taken

[Colin Crow]

Seems Bonnie Ray and Danny Arce we?re both sent to the TSBD a few weeks before the shooting to help lay the flooring.

Mr. BALL. What kind of work were you employed to do?
Mr. ARCE. Order filler.
Mr. BALL. What building did you work in?
Mr. ARCE. At the warehouse.
Mr. BALL. At Houston and Elm?
Mr. ARCE. No; that's on----
Mr. BALL. Which is this?
Mr. ARCE. That's the one behind it; directly behind the Texas School Book Depository at Elm and Houston.
Mr. BALL. You worked there most of the time as an order filler?
Mr. ARCE. Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. Did you ever work over at the building at 411 Elm?
Mr. ARCE. Yes, sir; they were short of help up there and they sent me and the other boy down there.
Mr. BALL. Who is the other boy?
Mr. ARCE. Bonnie Ray Williams
Mr. BALL. They sent you out to do what?
Mr. ARCE. Help lay out a floor on the sixth floor.
Mr. BALL. What date did they send you down there?
Mr. ARCE. Sir, I don't remember.
Mr. BALL. October?
Mr. ARCE. I know I had been there about 4 weeks when all that happened; I believe 4 or 5 weeks. I am not too sure about that.
Mr. BALL. You mean 4 or 5 weeks before November 22, 1963?
Mr. ARCE. Yeah.
Mr. BALL. Were you laying floor at that time?
Mr. ARCE. Yes, sir; we laid floor on the fifth and then we were on the sixth when this happened.

[Colin Crow]

Arce is asked about who was where at lunchtime......no mention of the agreement to return to the sixth floor.

Mr. BALL. Did you have lunch?
Mr. ARCE. Yeah.
Mr. BALL. Where?
Mr. ARCE. In that little domino room there.
Mr. BALL. Where did you go after that?
Mr. ARCE. I went outside.
Mr. BALL. With whom?
Mr. ARCE. With Billy Lovelady and Mr. Shelley and I was out there with Junior.
Mr. BALL. Who is Junior?
Mr. ARCE. I don't know his real name; I just know him by Junior.
Mr. BALL. Was Bonnie Ray Williams ever out there with you?
Mr. ARCE. No, he stayed upstairs with Hank. Junior stayed up there but he was down a little while and I guess he went upstairs.

[Colin Crow]

Truly recalling seeing Givens, Norman and Jarman just before the shooting.

Mr. BELIN. Did you notice any other company employees with you other than Mr. Campbell at that time?
Mr. TRULY. Well, I did. I noticed several. Mrs. Reid was standing there close. And it seemed like there were several of the other employees standing out in front of the building. But I cannot--I think Bill Shelley was standing over to my right as I faced the motorcade--somewheres in that area.
I noticed just before the motorcade passed there were, I believe, three of our colored boys had come out and started up, and two of them came back. And I didn't see them when the motorcade passed.
But they had started across Houston Street up Elm, and they came back later on, and I think those were the ones that were two of them were the ones on the fifth floor. Possibly they could not see over the crowd. They are short boys. I wasn't doing too well at that, myself.

[Colin Crow]

So for all of those who think it entirely plausible that the three agreed to protect BRW, ie. everyone who has posted in the thread so far except Howard, when do you think the agreed to do so?

On the 5th floor before descending.

On the first floor, before Williams is taken to the DPD.

Or after his release about 3.30pm on Friday and before Jarman provides his affidavit on Saturday.

[John Mytton]

Can you provide any evidence that Williams came up to the 6th floor to see Norman and Jarman? They were at the front of the building until about 12.20 and walked across Houston with Givens before changing their minds and heading for the 5th floor. Williams did claim eventually that Arce and Lovelady said that they might view the parade from the 6th floor.

Mr. BALL. You say you went back upstairs. Where did you go?
Mr. WILLIAMS. I went back up to the sixth floor.
Mr. BALL. Why did you go to the sixth floor?
Mr. WILLIAMS. Well, at the time everybody was talking like they was going to watch from the sixth floor. I think Billy Lovelady said he wanted to watch from up there. And also my friend; this Spanish boy, by the name of Danny Arce, we had agreed at first to come back up to the sixth floor. So I thought everybody was going to be on the sixth floor.
Mr. BALL. Did anybody go back?
Mr. WILLIAMS. Nobody came back up. So I just left.

I can only provide the evidence of what Williams himself said, and that was he "thought that everybody was going to be on the 6th floor" and obviously everybody includes both Jarman and Norman.



JohnM

[Colin Crow]

JohnM feels that Williams, who eventually claimed to have gone alone to the 6th floor in anticipation of joining workmates, saw Oswald in the SN and for some reason then decided to leave and look for others on the 5th floor.

What do you mean for "some reason", Williams came up to see Norman and Jarman and after politely excusing himself BRW went downstairs to hang out with who he originally intended to be with.

JohnM

I can only provide the evidence of what Williams himself said, and that was he "thought that everybody was going to be on the 6th floor" and obviously everybody includes both Jarman and Norman.



JohnM

Williams recalled Arce and Loveday mentioning the 6th floor. Assumes all his workmates will be there. Does that include all employees or the floor laying crew....who knows? You believe he saw one of them, Oswald, then decides to leave for the 5th floor on the basis of maybe hearing some noise below and the off chance some other workmates might be there. Is that better?


PS thanks for the photo....sh1tscared indeed!!!