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Author Topic: Arnold Rowland and the two men on the 6th floor - fabricator or WC fall guy?  (Read 1030 times)

Online Jerry Organ

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Except the white gunman he saw was in the SW corner at 12.15 pm and he never saw him again. Further, Arnold stated that the gunman had black hair and the weapon had a large scope, like one you would find on a hi powered deer hunting rifle.


You give credence to Rowland's gunman particulars and "rifle" description? With all the other stuff he got wrong?

And you have problems with Brennan?

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Online Tony Fratini

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You give credence to Rowland's gunman particulars and "rifle" description? With all the other stuff he got wrong?

And you have problems with Brennan?

No l don't  give credence Jerry. The white male that Arnold saw could of had a broom or a long work tool in his hand (as mentioned previously) that gave the appearance of a weapon. Or he had a deer hunting rifle.

Brennan? I could write a thesis on him.

My point all along was wanting to know why the WC used the FBI to discredit a witness on, in essence seeing two people on the 6th floor? In particular the unarmed African-American male in the SE corner.

I can not find a valid reason for Arnold to fabricate that observation. Can you?

Offline John Iacoletti

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Arnold Rowland testified before the Warren Commission. He saw a man in a low cut white t shirt holding a rifle with a scope on it in the sixth floor snipers nest window 15 minutes before the assassination happened.

No he didn't.  It was the window on the opposite end.

Quote
The man that he saw was wearing blue pants. When Oswald was arrested he had a low cut white t shirt and blue pants.

Oswald was wearing blue pants?  News to me.

Online Ray Mitcham

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No he didn't.  It was the window on the opposite end.

Oswald was wearing blue pants?  News to me.

Rowland to the WC

" He had on a light shirt, a very light-colored shirt, white or a light blue or a color such as that. This was open at the collar. I think it was unbuttoned about halfway, and then he had a regular T-shirt, a polo shirt under this, at least this is what it appeared to be. He had on dark slacks or blue jeans, I couldn't tell from that I didn't see but a small portion. "

Offline Nicholas Turner

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No he didn't.  It was the window on the opposite end.

Oswald was wearing blue pants?  News to me.

Was he wearing dark blue or black trousers when arrested? Hard to judge from the photos I've seen.

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Online Tony Fratini

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Was he wearing dark blue or black trousers when arrested? Hard to judge from the photos I've seen.

That's a good question, but not easy to answer.

Mr. BELIN. All right. Could you see the man's trousers at all? Do you remember any color?
Mr. BRENNAN. I remembered them at that time as being similar to the same color of the shirt or a little lighter. And that was another thing that I called their attention to at the lineup.
Mr. BELIN. What do you mean by that?
Mr. BRENNAN. That he was not dressed in the same clothes that I saw the man in the window.

When arrested

Mr. BALL. What was he wearing at that time?
Mr. MCDONALD. At the time he was wearing a dark brown shirt and a T-shirt and dark trousers.


Online Walt Cakebread

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The purpose of this thread is to collate what was known about what the 18 yo Arnold Rowland allegedly saw on 22/11/1963. The WC believed he was a fabricator and never saw an African American male in the SE corner ("SN") of the 6th floor of the TSBD at 12.15 pm and then gone by 12.25 pm.

I personally believe that Arnold was made the  subject of a vicious smear campaign by the WC - a "fall guy" because his observations seriously challenged the WC/FBI lone gunman hypothesis.

Arnold's observation of seeing the unarmed African American male in the SE corner at 12.15 pm did not constitute a conspiracy. The African-American male was a spectator wanting to see the oncoming Presidential parade. There were other TSBD employees on other floors wanting to do the same.

It was common knowledge amongst the floor laying crew that they were thinking of meeting up on the 6th floor to view the parade.

Mr. BALL. Why did you go to the sixth floor?
Mr. WILLIAMS. Well, at the time everybody was talking like they was going to watch from the sixth floor. I think Billy Lovelady said he wanted to watch from up there. And also my friend; this Spanish boy, by the name of Danny Arce, we had agreed at first to come back up to the sixth floor. So I thought everybody was going to be on the sixth floor.

We know as fact that BRW was on the 6th floor eating his lunch at around 12 noon.

Mr. DULLES. You ate your lunch on the sixth floor?
Mr. WILLIAMS. Yes, sir.

Mr. MCCLOY. What time of day was this, when you were eating your lunch?
Mr. WILLIAMS. About 12.

We also know as fact what he ate for lunch on the 6th floor

Mr. WILLIAMS. I carried my lunch from home to work in a brown paper bag. I believe it was size No. 6 or maybe 8—paper bag.
Mr. BALL. Number 6 or 8 size paper bag?
Mr. WILLIAMS. Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. Small bag?
Mr. WILLIAMS. Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. Like you get in the grocery store?
Mr. WILLIAMS. Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. What did you have in your lunch?
Mr. WILLIAMS. I had a chicken sandwich.
Mr. BALL. Describe the sandwich. What did it have in it besides chicken?
Mr. WILLIAMS. Well, it just had chicken in it. Chicken on the bone.
Mr. BALL. Chicken on the bone?
Mr. WILLIAMS. Yes.
Mr. BALL. The chicken was not boned?
Mr. WILLIAMS. It was just chicken on the bone. Just plain old chicken.
Mr. BALL. Did it have bread around it?
Mr. WILLIAMS. Yes, it did.
Mr. BALL. Before you went upstairs, did you get anything to drink?
Mr. WILLIAMS. I got a small bottle of Dr. Pepper from the Dr. Pepper machine.
Mr. BALL. Did you have anything else in your lunch besides chicken?
Mr. WILLIAMS. I had a bag of Fritos, I believe it was.

We know that BRW's remains of his lunch was initially found in the SE corner of the 6th floor, known as the SN. This was independently corroborated by at least two Officers (neither of which saw CE 142 on the floor). 

Mr. MOONEY. There was one of them partially eaten. And there was a little small paper poke.
Mr. BALL. By poke, you mean a paper sack?
Mr. MOONEY. Right.
Mr. BALL. Where was that?
Mr. MOONEY. Saw the chicken bone was laying here. The poke was laying about a foot away from it.
Mr. BALL. On the same carton?
Mr. MOONEY. Yes, sir. In close relation to each other. But as to what was in the sack—it was kind of together, and I didn't open it. I didn't put my hands on it to open it. I only saw one piece of chicken.
Senator COOPER. How far was the chicken, the piece of chicken you saw, and the paper bag from the boxes near the window, and particularly the box that had the crease in it?
Mr. MOONEY. I would say they might have been 5 feet or something like that. He wouldn't have had to leave the location. He could just maybe take one step and lay it over there, if he was the one that put it there.
Senator COOPER. You mean if someone had been standing near the box with the crease in it?
Mr. MOONEY. Yes, sir.
Senator COOPER. It would have been that approximate distance to the chicken leg and paper bag?
Mr. MOONEY. Sir?
Senator COOPER. And the paper bag you spoke of?
Mr. MOONEY. Yes, sir; they were in close relation to each other, yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. How big a bag was it?
Mr. MOONEY. Well, as to the number—these bags are numbered, I understand. But it was—I don't know what the number you would call it, but it didn't stand more than that high.
Mr. BALL. About 12 inches?
Mr. MOONEY. About 8 to 10 inches, at the most.
Mr. BALL. What color was the bag?
Mr. MOONEY. It was brown. Just a regular paper bag. Just as a grocery store uses for their produce and what-have-you.

Mr. HILL. There was the boxes. The boxes were stacked in sort of a three-sided shield. That would have concealed from general view, unless somebody specifically walked up and looked over them, anyone who was in a sitting or crouched position between them and the window. In front of this window and to the left or east corner of the window, there were two boxes, cardboard boxes that had the words "Roller books," on them. On top of the larger stack of boxes that would have been used for concealment, there was a chicken leg bone and a paper sack which appeared to have been about the size normally used for a lunch sack. I wouldn't know what the sizes were. It was a sack, I would say extended, it would probably be 12 inches high, 10 inches long, and about 4 inches thick.

We don't need Arnold's observation at all to prove that at some stage after 12 noon BRW was eating his chicken lunch IN the SN that had a box to sit on, and an opened window to view the oncoming Presidential parade. In a sitting position, BRW would not have seen the gunman at the SW corner and vice versa.

As shown here, the SE corner was an ideal spot to eat ones lunch and view the parade:





It had the vantage point of seeing both Houston and Elm Street.





BRW had lied about where he had eaten his chicken lunch - MOONEY and HILL (evidence found inside the TSBD) and ROWLAND (visual observation from outside the TSBD) proved it beyond doubt.

If BRW had eaten his lunch at the two wheeler he would have seen the gunman and vice versa.







The window in front of the two wheeler was closed, dirty and had a restrictive view of the Presidential Parade



BRW was on the right floor, locale and time frame to be the tall, slim African-American male as seen by Arnold Rowland at 12.15 pm.

Arnold had no reason at all to fabricate seeing the African-American male in the SE corner at 12.15 pm. He was unarmed and posed no perceived threat.

Arnold had an uninterrupted LOS to the SE corner of the 6th floor



As photos proved with Hill, it was possible to lean your upper torso out of a half opened window. Arnold described this as "hanging out" the window.





BRW had white debris across the front of his green shirt - proof that he had lent against the white wall surrounding the window frame. This could have come from the 6th and/or 5th floors.



Barbara visually could not see sufficient detail on the TSBD because she was nearsighted and didn't have her glasses that day.

Mr. SORRELS. Yes—two windows towards the west side. And that he remarked to his wife, "I guess that is a Secret Service man." And I asked her if she saw it, and she said, no, that she had left her glasses home, and she is nearsighted, and she could not see him. And, of course, I asked him the description of the man. I asked him "How could you determine—what made you think it had a telescopic sight on it?" He said, "Well, it seemed like it was wider on the light background." I said, "How was he holding it?" He said, port arms—he was standing several feet back away from the window. And I asked him, "Could you identify that man?" He said, "No, I could not."
Mr. STERN. Did Mrs. Roland confirm that he had discussed this with her?
Mr. SORRELS. She confirmed the conversation, but she said she could not see anything, because she didn't have her glasses.

The amendment that Barbara made, but was not included in the final printed version of her WC testimony, proved that she "did not hear everything that was said".

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Arnold's and Roger's recollections contained many errors, however through independent witnesses, we know that BRW was not alone on the 6th floor from 12.15 pm - 12.25 pm and that he was in the SN eating his lunch and was surrounded by book cases.

As Colin said, it is time to move on.

I do not blame BRW at all for lying where he was on the 6th floor - he would have been labeled as a co-conspirator by the DP just like Fritz tried to do with BWF. Being a young African-American male in the 60's in the South - BRW was as good as dead.

Fritz and Wade had prior history in coercing false confessions from young African-American men.

Summary - this was the African American male that Arnold Rowland saw on the 6th floor at the SE corner at 12.15 pm



The WC did not accept this and used the FBI (who wrote a 19 page report on his character) and his own wife (Barbara) to discredit him.

Here was the reason why:

"One witness, however, offered testimony which, if accurate, would create the possibility of an accomplice at the window at the time of the assassination. The witness was 18-year-old Arnold Rowland, who testified in great detail concerning his activities and observations on November 22, 1963."

Commission, Warren; House Select Committee on Assassinations; Assassination Records Review Board; U.S. Government. Complete Guide to the 1963 JFK Assassination: The Full Text of Three Major Reports - Warren Commission, House Select Committee, and the Assassination Records Review Board - President John F. Kennedy (Kindle Locations 4600-4602). Progressive Management. Kindle Edition.

BRW was not on the 6th floor when the shots were fired - he was gone by ~12.25 pm

The significance of this statement had a massive outcome to the events on the 6th floor from 12 noon - 12.25 pm



Mr. SPECTER. Over how long a time span did you observe the Negro man to be in the window marked "A"?

Mr. ROWLAND. He was there before I noticed the man with the rifle and approximately 12:30 or when the motorcade was at Main and Ervay he was gone when I looked back and I had looked up there about 30 seconds before or a minute before.

Mr. SPECTER. How long after you heard the motorcade was at Main and Ervay did the motorcade pass by where you were?

Mr. ROWLAND. Another 5 minutes.

Mr. SPECTER. So that you observed this colored man on the window you have marked "A" within 5 minutes prior to the time the motorcade passed in front of you?

Mr. ROWLAND. Approximately 5 minutes prior to the time the motorcade came, he wasn't there. About 30 seconds or a minute prior to that time he was there.

The President's Commission on the Assassination of President Kennedy. Warren Commission (1 to 5 of 26): Hearings Vol. 1 to 5 (of 15) (Kindle Locations 25703-25711). bz editores. Kindle Edition.

Mr. BALL. Where did you intend to go when you left the sixth floor?
Mr. WILLIAMS. I intended to stop on the fifth floor, and if there wasn't anyone there, I intended to get out of the building, go outside.
Mr. BALL. Well, you stopped on the fifth floor. Why?
Mr. WILLIAMS. Beg pardon?
Mr. BALL. Why did you stop on the fifth floor?
Mr. WILLIAMS. To see if there was anyone there.
Mr. BALL. Did you know there was anyone there before you started down?
Mr. WILLIAMS. Well, I thought I heard somebody walking, the windows moving or something. I said maybe someone is down there, I said to myself. And I just went on down.
Mr. BALL. Did you find anybody there?
Mr. WILLIAMS. As I remember, when I was walking up, I think Harold Norman and James Jarman—as I remember, they was down facing the Elm Street on the fifth floor, as I remember.

The President's Commission on the Assassination of President Kennedy. Warren Commission (1 to 5 of 26): Hearings Vol. 1 to 5 (of 15) (Kindle Locations 45612-45622). bz editores. Kindle Edition.

Timing wise, it perfectly matched Arnold's observation.

The African American male (BRW) was no longer seen at ~12.25 pm on the 6th floor - he went to the 5th floor where Norman and Jarman were.



Would it have been possible to even see someone in the SW window on the 6th floor?





Credit: James Hess




Mr. SPECTER. And how much, if any, of his body was obscured by the window frame from that point down to the floor?
Mr. ROWLAND. From where I was standing I could see from his head to about 6 inches below his waist, below his belt.
Mr. SPECTER. Could you see as far as his knees?
Mr. ROWLAND. No.
Mr. SPECTER. And what is your best recollection as to how close to the window he was standing?
Mr. ROWLAND. He wasn't next to the window, but he wasn't very far back. I would say 3 to 5 feet back from the window.

The President's Commission on the Assassination of President Kennedy. Warren Commission (1 to 5 of 26): Hearings Vol. 1 to 5 (of 15) (Kindle Locations 25437-25442). bz editores. Kindle Edition.

Were Arnold's "recollections" perfect - no they were not, same with Roger Craig's.

However:

Mr. BELIN. Did he tell you whether any of these other people were on the sixth floor?
Mr. CRAIG. No; these two men were the only ones he saw on that particular floor.
Mr. BELIN. Did he tell you that was the sixth floor he saw them on?
Mr. CRAIG. Yes. He said the second to the top floor—the next floor down; which would be the sixth floor.
Mr. BELIN. Did he tell you about ever seeing anyone else on the sixth floor—or did he say that he didn't see anyone else on the sixth floor? Or don't you remember?
Mr. CRAIG. Just the two men. That's all he saw on that particular floor.
Mr. BELIN. Did you specifically ask him if he saw anyone else on that floor, or did he say that he did not?
Mr. CRAIG. No; I asked him and he said——
Mr. BELIN. Well, what was your statement to him and what was his to you?
Mr. CRAIG. I asked him was there anybody else on the floor with these two men. And he said, "No, just the two of them."
Mr. BELIN. Did he say that he saw these two men together first?
Mr. CRAIG. Yes.
Mr. BELIN. And then he just saw one, as I understand it?
Mr. CRAIG. A few minutes later, he looked back up there and saw just the man with the rifle.
Mr. BELIN. I believe he said earlier that he saw these men around 15 minutes before the motorcade arrived? And then a few minutes later, you say that he told you he saw only one man?
Mr. CRAIG. Right.

The President's Commission on the Assassination of President Kennedy. Warren Commission 6 to 10 (of 26): Hearings Vol. 6 to 10 (of 15) (Kindle Locations 10438-10454). bz editores. Kindle Edition.

Rowland encountered Craig some 10 minutes post-assassination.

Mr. MCCLOY. What time of day was this, when you were eating your lunch?
Mr. WILLIAMS. About 12.


BRW was not alone on the 6th floor from 12:5 pm - 12:25 pm and that he was in the SN eating his lunch

I believe the time of about 12:15 is more reasonable than BRW's statement of "about 12"   .....

I believe that there was someone on the sixth floor with BRW but that person was definitely not Lee Oswald......The other man was in the SW corner of the sixth floor and he was holding a HUNTING RIFLE with a large telescopic site mounted on it.  BRW may not have seen the man who was dressed in khaki like a deputy sheriff's uniform.  But IF he did see the man I'm certain that BRW did not see a rifle.....   And apparently ( if he did see the khaki clad man) he dismissed the man's presence as being nothing unusual.     IOW....Whoever the man was, his presence did not alarm BRW in anyway...and if it had been Lee Oswald ( who was not wearing Khaki) BRW would have jumped on that fact and told the "investigators" that he had seen Lee Oswald on the sixth floor at about 12: 15.

Online Tony Fratini

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Mr. MCCLOY. What time of day was this, when you were eating your lunch?
Mr. WILLIAMS. About 12.


BRW was not alone on the 6th floor from 12:5 pm - 12:25 pm and that he was in the SN eating his lunch

I believe the time of about 12:15 is more reasonable than BRW's statement of "about 12"   .....

I believe that there was someone on the sixth floor with BRW but that person was definitely not Lee Oswald......The other man was in the SW corner of the sixth floor and he was holding a HUNTING RIFLE with a large telescopic site mounted on it.  BRW may not have seen the man who was dressed in khaki like a deputy sheriff's uniform.  But IF he did see the man I'm certain that BRW did not see a rifle.....   And apparently ( if he did see the khaki clad man) he dismissed the man's presence as being nothing unusual.     IOW....Whoever the man was, his presence did not alarm BRW in anyway...and if it had been Lee Oswald ( who was not wearing Khaki) BRW would have jumped on that fact and told the "investigators" that he had seen Lee Oswald on the sixth floor at about 12: 15.

Any suggestions who that may have been?

This was what Arnold thought:

Mr. ROWLAND....He was standing and holding a rifle. This appeared to me to be a fairly high-powered rifle because of the scope and the relative proportion of the scope to the rifle, you can tell about what type of rifle it is. You can tell it isn't a .22, you know, and we thought momentarily that maybe we should tell someone but then the thought came to us that it is a security agent. We had seen in the movies before where they have security men up in windows and places like that with rifles to watch the crowds, and we brushed it aside as that, at that time, and thought nothing else about it until after the event happened. 




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Offline Nicholas Turner

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No he didn't.  It was the window on the opposite end.

Oswald was wearing blue pants?  News to me.

The pictures from his arrest seem to show dark blue trousers. Do you agree? If not what colour would you say they were?

Online Ray Mitcham

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The pictures from his arrest seem to show dark blue trousers. Do you agree? If not what colour would you say they were?

Nicholas, which color photos of his arrest have you seen? We'd appreciate a link.

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