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Author Topic: Arnold Rowland and the two men on the 6th floor - fabricator or WC fall guy?  (Read 1026 times)

Online Tony Fratini

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The purpose of this thread is to collate what was known about what the 18 yo Arnold Rowland allegedly saw on 22/11/1963. The WC believed he was a fabricator and never saw an African American male in the SE corner ("SN") of the 6th floor of the TSBD at 12.15 pm and then gone by 12.25 pm.

I personally believe that Arnold was made the  subject of a vicious smear campaign by the WC - a "fall guy" because his observations seriously challenged the WC/FBI lone gunman hypothesis.

Arnold's observation of seeing the unarmed African American male in the SE corner at 12.15 pm did not constitute a conspiracy. The African-American male was a spectator wanting to see the oncoming Presidential parade. There were other TSBD employees on other floors wanting to do the same.

It was common knowledge amongst the floor laying crew that they were thinking of meeting up on the 6th floor to view the parade.

Mr. BALL. Why did you go to the sixth floor?
Mr. WILLIAMS. Well, at the time everybody was talking like they was going to watch from the sixth floor. I think Billy Lovelady said he wanted to watch from up there. And also my friend; this Spanish boy, by the name of Danny Arce, we had agreed at first to come back up to the sixth floor. So I thought everybody was going to be on the sixth floor.

We know as fact that BRW was on the 6th floor eating his lunch at around 12 noon.

Mr. DULLES. You ate your lunch on the sixth floor?
Mr. WILLIAMS. Yes, sir.

Mr. MCCLOY. What time of day was this, when you were eating your lunch?
Mr. WILLIAMS. About 12.

We also know as fact what he ate for lunch on the 6th floor

Mr. WILLIAMS. I carried my lunch from home to work in a brown paper bag. I believe it was size No. 6 or maybe 8—paper bag.
Mr. BALL. Number 6 or 8 size paper bag?
Mr. WILLIAMS. Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. Small bag?
Mr. WILLIAMS. Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. Like you get in the grocery store?
Mr. WILLIAMS. Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. What did you have in your lunch?
Mr. WILLIAMS. I had a chicken sandwich.
Mr. BALL. Describe the sandwich. What did it have in it besides chicken?
Mr. WILLIAMS. Well, it just had chicken in it. Chicken on the bone.
Mr. BALL. Chicken on the bone?
Mr. WILLIAMS. Yes.
Mr. BALL. The chicken was not boned?
Mr. WILLIAMS. It was just chicken on the bone. Just plain old chicken.
Mr. BALL. Did it have bread around it?
Mr. WILLIAMS. Yes, it did.
Mr. BALL. Before you went upstairs, did you get anything to drink?
Mr. WILLIAMS. I got a small bottle of Dr. Pepper from the Dr. Pepper machine.
Mr. BALL. Did you have anything else in your lunch besides chicken?
Mr. WILLIAMS. I had a bag of Fritos, I believe it was.

We know that BRW's remains of his lunch was initially found in the SE corner of the 6th floor, known as the SN. This was independently corroborated by at least two Officers (neither of which saw CE 142 on the floor). 

Mr. MOONEY. There was one of them partially eaten. And there was a little small paper poke.
Mr. BALL. By poke, you mean a paper sack?
Mr. MOONEY. Right.
Mr. BALL. Where was that?
Mr. MOONEY. Saw the chicken bone was laying here. The poke was laying about a foot away from it.
Mr. BALL. On the same carton?
Mr. MOONEY. Yes, sir. In close relation to each other. But as to what was in the sack—it was kind of together, and I didn't open it. I didn't put my hands on it to open it. I only saw one piece of chicken.
Senator COOPER. How far was the chicken, the piece of chicken you saw, and the paper bag from the boxes near the window, and particularly the box that had the crease in it?
Mr. MOONEY. I would say they might have been 5 feet or something like that. He wouldn't have had to leave the location. He could just maybe take one step and lay it over there, if he was the one that put it there.
Senator COOPER. You mean if someone had been standing near the box with the crease in it?
Mr. MOONEY. Yes, sir.
Senator COOPER. It would have been that approximate distance to the chicken leg and paper bag?
Mr. MOONEY. Sir?
Senator COOPER. And the paper bag you spoke of?
Mr. MOONEY. Yes, sir; they were in close relation to each other, yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. How big a bag was it?
Mr. MOONEY. Well, as to the number—these bags are numbered, I understand. But it was—I don't know what the number you would call it, but it didn't stand more than that high.
Mr. BALL. About 12 inches?
Mr. MOONEY. About 8 to 10 inches, at the most.
Mr. BALL. What color was the bag?
Mr. MOONEY. It was brown. Just a regular paper bag. Just as a grocery store uses for their produce and what-have-you.

Mr. HILL. There was the boxes. The boxes were stacked in sort of a three-sided shield. That would have concealed from general view, unless somebody specifically walked up and looked over them, anyone who was in a sitting or crouched position between them and the window. In front of this window and to the left or east corner of the window, there were two boxes, cardboard boxes that had the words "Roller books," on them. On top of the larger stack of boxes that would have been used for concealment, there was a chicken leg bone and a paper sack which appeared to have been about the size normally used for a lunch sack. I wouldn't know what the sizes were. It was a sack, I would say extended, it would probably be 12 inches high, 10 inches long, and about 4 inches thick.

We don't need Arnold's observation at all to prove that at some stage after 12 noon BRW was eating his chicken lunch IN the SN that had a box to sit on, and an opened window to view the oncoming Presidential parade. In a sitting position, BRW would not have seen the gunman at the SW corner and vice versa.

As shown here, the SE corner was an ideal spot to eat ones lunch and view the parade:





It had the vantage point of seeing both Houston and Elm Street.





BRW had lied about where he had eaten his chicken lunch - MOONEY and HILL (evidence found inside the TSBD) and ROWLAND (visual observation from outside the TSBD) proved it beyond doubt.

If BRW had eaten his lunch at the two wheeler he would have seen the gunman and vice versa.







The window in front of the two wheeler was closed, dirty and had a restrictive view of the Presidential Parade



BRW was on the right floor, locale and time frame to be the tall, slim African-American male as seen by Arnold Rowland at 12.15 pm.

Arnold had no reason at all to fabricate seeing the African-American male in the SE corner at 12.15 pm. He was unarmed and posed no perceived threat.

Arnold had an uninterrupted LOS to the SE corner of the 6th floor



As photos proved with Hill, it was possible to lean your upper torso out of a half opened window. Arnold described this as "hanging out" the window.





BRW had white debris across the front of his green shirt - proof that he had lent against the white wall surrounding the window frame. This could have come from the 6th and/or 5th floors.



Barbara visually could not see sufficient detail on the TSBD because she was nearsighted and didn't have her glasses that day.

Mr. SORRELS. Yes—two windows towards the west side. And that he remarked to his wife, "I guess that is a Secret Service man." And I asked her if she saw it, and she said, no, that she had left her glasses home, and she is nearsighted, and she could not see him. And, of course, I asked him the description of the man. I asked him "How could you determine—what made you think it had a telescopic sight on it?" He said, "Well, it seemed like it was wider on the light background." I said, "How was he holding it?" He said, port arms—he was standing several feet back away from the window. And I asked him, "Could you identify that man?" He said, "No, I could not."
Mr. STERN. Did Mrs. Roland confirm that he had discussed this with her?
Mr. SORRELS. She confirmed the conversation, but she said she could not see anything, because she didn't have her glasses.

The amendment that Barbara made, but was not included in the final printed version of her WC testimony, proved that she "did not hear everything that was said".

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Arnold's and Roger's recollections contained many errors, however through independent witnesses, we know that BRW was not alone on the 6th floor from 12.15 pm - 12.25 pm and that he was in the SN eating his lunch and was surrounded by book cases.

As Colin said, it is time to move on.

I do not blame BRW at all for lying where he was on the 6th floor - he would have been labeled as a co-conspirator by the DP just like Fritz tried to do with BWF. Being a young African-American male in the 60's in the South - BRW was as good as dead.

Fritz and Wade had prior history in coercing false confessions from young African-American men.

Summary - this was the African American male that Arnold Rowland saw on the 6th floor at the SE corner at 12.15 pm



The WC did not accept this and used the FBI (who wrote a 19 page report on his character) and his own wife (Barbara) to discredit him.

Here was the reason why:

"One witness, however, offered testimony which, if accurate, would create the possibility of an accomplice at the window at the time of the assassination. The witness was 18-year-old Arnold Rowland, who testified in great detail concerning his activities and observations on November 22, 1963."

Commission, Warren; House Select Committee on Assassinations; Assassination Records Review Board; U.S. Government. Complete Guide to the 1963 JFK Assassination: The Full Text of Three Major Reports - Warren Commission, House Select Committee, and the Assassination Records Review Board - President John F. Kennedy (Kindle Locations 4600-4602). Progressive Management. Kindle Edition.

BRW was not on the 6th floor when the shots were fired - he was gone by ~12.25 pm

The significance of this statement had a massive outcome to the events on the 6th floor from 12 noon - 12.25 pm



Mr. SPECTER. Over how long a time span did you observe the Negro man to be in the window marked "A"?

Mr. ROWLAND. He was there before I noticed the man with the rifle and approximately 12:30 or when the motorcade was at Main and Ervay he was gone when I looked back and I had looked up there about 30 seconds before or a minute before.

Mr. SPECTER. How long after you heard the motorcade was at Main and Ervay did the motorcade pass by where you were?

Mr. ROWLAND. Another 5 minutes.

Mr. SPECTER. So that you observed this colored man on the window you have marked "A" within 5 minutes prior to the time the motorcade passed in front of you?

Mr. ROWLAND. Approximately 5 minutes prior to the time the motorcade came, he wasn't there. About 30 seconds or a minute prior to that time he was there.

The President's Commission on the Assassination of President Kennedy. Warren Commission (1 to 5 of 26): Hearings Vol. 1 to 5 (of 15) (Kindle Locations 25703-25711). bz editores. Kindle Edition.

Mr. BALL. Where did you intend to go when you left the sixth floor?
Mr. WILLIAMS. I intended to stop on the fifth floor, and if there wasn't anyone there, I intended to get out of the building, go outside.
Mr. BALL. Well, you stopped on the fifth floor. Why?
Mr. WILLIAMS. Beg pardon?
Mr. BALL. Why did you stop on the fifth floor?
Mr. WILLIAMS. To see if there was anyone there.
Mr. BALL. Did you know there was anyone there before you started down?
Mr. WILLIAMS. Well, I thought I heard somebody walking, the windows moving or something. I said maybe someone is down there, I said to myself. And I just went on down.
Mr. BALL. Did you find anybody there?
Mr. WILLIAMS. As I remember, when I was walking up, I think Harold Norman and James Jarman—as I remember, they was down facing the Elm Street on the fifth floor, as I remember.

The President's Commission on the Assassination of President Kennedy. Warren Commission (1 to 5 of 26): Hearings Vol. 1 to 5 (of 15) (Kindle Locations 45612-45622). bz editores. Kindle Edition.

Timing wise, it perfectly matched Arnold's observation.

The African American male (BRW) was no longer seen at ~12.25 pm on the 6th floor - he went to the 5th floor where Norman and Jarman were.



Would it have been possible to even see someone in the SW window on the 6th floor?





Credit: James Hess




Mr. SPECTER. And how much, if any, of his body was obscured by the window frame from that point down to the floor?
Mr. ROWLAND. From where I was standing I could see from his head to about 6 inches below his waist, below his belt.
Mr. SPECTER. Could you see as far as his knees?
Mr. ROWLAND. No.
Mr. SPECTER. And what is your best recollection as to how close to the window he was standing?
Mr. ROWLAND. He wasn't next to the window, but he wasn't very far back. I would say 3 to 5 feet back from the window.

The President's Commission on the Assassination of President Kennedy. Warren Commission (1 to 5 of 26): Hearings Vol. 1 to 5 (of 15) (Kindle Locations 25437-25442). bz editores. Kindle Edition.

Were Arnold's "recollections" perfect - no they were not, same with Roger Craig's.

However:

Mr. BELIN. Did he tell you whether any of these other people were on the sixth floor?
Mr. CRAIG. No; these two men were the only ones he saw on that particular floor.
Mr. BELIN. Did he tell you that was the sixth floor he saw them on?
Mr. CRAIG. Yes. He said the second to the top floor—the next floor down; which would be the sixth floor.
Mr. BELIN. Did he tell you about ever seeing anyone else on the sixth floor—or did he say that he didn't see anyone else on the sixth floor? Or don't you remember?
Mr. CRAIG. Just the two men. That's all he saw on that particular floor.
Mr. BELIN. Did you specifically ask him if he saw anyone else on that floor, or did he say that he did not?
Mr. CRAIG. No; I asked him and he said——
Mr. BELIN. Well, what was your statement to him and what was his to you?
Mr. CRAIG. I asked him was there anybody else on the floor with these two men. And he said, "No, just the two of them."
Mr. BELIN. Did he say that he saw these two men together first?
Mr. CRAIG. Yes.
Mr. BELIN. And then he just saw one, as I understand it?
Mr. CRAIG. A few minutes later, he looked back up there and saw just the man with the rifle.
Mr. BELIN. I believe he said earlier that he saw these men around 15 minutes before the motorcade arrived? And then a few minutes later, you say that he told you he saw only one man?
Mr. CRAIG. Right.

The President's Commission on the Assassination of President Kennedy. Warren Commission 6 to 10 (of 26): Hearings Vol. 6 to 10 (of 15) (Kindle Locations 10438-10454). bz editores. Kindle Edition.

Rowland encountered Craig some 10 minutes post-assassination.

« Last Edit: September 12, 2018, 07:05:21 AM by Tony Fratini »

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Offline John Iacoletti

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Good summary, Tony.  The WC couldn't just disregard him as "mistaken" like they did with other inconvenient witnesses -- they had to completely smear him, because they were afraid of what he saw and what they thought that would mean.

Offline Jerry Organ

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  • Top of the head cropped
  • no space above the head
  • figure not in sunshine
 
  • Figure seems unnaturally short
  • figure not in sunshine
  • not street-level perspective
( Full-size graphics were posted above )

Rowland said he saw (within the confines of the open window) the rifleman from the midpoint between waist/knee to several feet above head.

        Asked about how much of rifleman's body was
      in the open view where there was no window
Rowland     Approximately two-thirds of his body just below his waist.
  From where I was standing I could see from his head
to about 6 inches below his waist, below his belt.
  Mid point between the waist and the knees ... To the top
of his head. There was some space on top of that where
I could see the wall behind him ... Two and a half, three
feet, something on that

I suggest that one not take too literal isolated pieces of testimony from witnesses. If there are other records of how a witness describes thing, they ought to be considered as well.

Online Tony Fratini

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Good summary, Tony.  The WC couldn't just disregard him as "mistaken" like they did with other inconvenient witnesses -- they had to completely smear him, because they were afraid of what he saw and what they thought that would mean.

Yes they did.

All the WC had to do was to say that he was "mistaken" and leave it at that.

But to get the FBI involved was on another level. Arnold was a witness not a criminal.

All of that because he saw an unarmed African-American male.  ???
« Last Edit: September 12, 2018, 07:05:42 PM by Tony Fratini »

Online Tony Fratini

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  • Top of the head cropped
  • no space above the head
  • figure not in sunshine
 
  • Figure seems unnaturally short
  • figure not in sunshine
  • not street-level perspective
( Full-size graphics were posted above )

Rowland said he saw (within the confines of the open window) the rifleman from the midpoint between waist/knee to several feet above head.

        Asked about how much of rifleman's body was
      in the open view where there was no window
Rowland     Approximately two-thirds of his body just below his waist.
  From where I was standing I could see from his head
to about 6 inches below his waist, below his belt.
  Mid point between the waist and the knees ... To the top
of his head. There was some space on top of that where
I could see the wall behind him ... Two and a half, three
feet, something on that

I suggest that one not take too literal isolated pieces of testimony from witnesses. If there are other records of how a witness describes thing, they ought to be considered as well.

I look at it in its simplest form - did Arnold see a white male that appeared to be armed at 12.15 pm at the fully opened window of the SW corner?

The WC believed that he did.

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Offline Jerry Organ

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I look at it in its simplest form - did Arnold see a white male that appeared to be armed at 12.15 pm at the fully opened window of the SW corner?

The WC believed that he did.

Belin "believed" Rowland. The WC believed Brennan.

Be nice if CTs could be as forgiving towards Brennan and a few others.

Offline Martin Weidmann

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Belin "believed" Rowland. The WC believed Brennan.

Be nice if CTs could be as forgiving towards Brennan and a few others.


Be nice if CTs could be as forgiving towards Brennan


Perhaps they would be if Brennan had told a more credible and consistent story about his failure to identify Oswald at the line up and if he had not changed significant details of his story later on....

Online Tony Fratini

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Belin "believed" Rowland. The WC believed Brennan.

Be nice if CTs could be as forgiving towards Brennan and a few others.

Jerry, my take on why the WC "believed" Arnold was because some of the descriptions he gave of the gunman matched those, in part, to what others had seen. Otherwise they would have dismissed him outright. Howard definitely embellished his recollections of what he saw of the shooting. All you have to do is read his book and you can see that he made Arnold look like an amateur.

However, he was able to do what Arnold refused to do - ID the gunman as Lee Harvey Oswald. He did this though AFTER Lee was deceased. Howard being "scared" of a communist threat out to get him and his family was simply laughable.

Arnold, no doubt, embellished some of his observations and provided detail that was questionable as to its accuracy. But if he was able to see the white slender male in the white shirt who appeared to be holding a weapon, then he would of had no issues seeing the African-American male who would have been closer to his position on Houston.

For me, the question needs to be asked- why would Arnold fabricate about seeing the African-American male who just about perfectly patterned match BRW?

Fabricating seeing the gunman, l could understand, but the African-American male?

What was the basis for the WC rejecting Arnold seeing the African-American male?

It had nothing to do with Arnold guessing the age wrong but the mere fact that there was an additional person on the 6th floor so LATE (~ 12.25 pm) that was the issue in my opinion.

Easy to discredit Arnold than challenge BRW with Arnold's observation.

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Offline Mark Carter

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Arnold Rowland testified before the Warren Commission. He saw a man in a low cut white t shirt holding a rifle with a scope on it in the sixth floor snipers nest window 15 minutes before the assassination happened. The man that he saw was wearing blue pants. When Oswald was arrested he had a low cut white t shirt and blue pants. So Arnold Rowland saw Oswald planting the M Carcano in the sixth floor window. Then he looked back right before the motorcade came and the man that he saw in the sixth floor window was "gone"
 Rowlands testimony is the most important testimony that there is. Nothing faked about it

Online Tony Fratini

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Arnold Rowland testified before the Warren Commission. He saw a man in a low cut white t shirt holding a rifle with a scope on it in the sixth floor snipers nest window 15 minutes before the assassination happened. The man that he saw was wearing blue pants. When Oswald was arrested he had a low cut white t shirt and blue pants. So Arnold Rowland saw Oswald planting the M Carcano in the sixth floor window. Then he looked back right before the motorcade came and the man that he saw in the sixth floor window was "gone"
 Rowlands testimony is the most important testimony that there is. Nothing faked about it


Except the white gunman he saw was in the SW corner at 12.15 pm and he never saw him again. Further, Arnold stated that the gunman had black hair and the weapon had a large scope, like one you would find on a hi powered deer hunting rifle.

So while there were similarities to Lee, there were significant differences.

Then one had to explain how both the gunman and the unarmed African American male failed to see each other for at least 10 minutes on the 6th floor.

By discrediting Arnold, the WC didn't have to address that at all.

« Last Edit: September 13, 2018, 04:21:23 AM by Tony Fratini »

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