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Author Topic: LNers: Your Views of the Missed Shot?  (Read 4280 times)

Online Gary Craig

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Re: LNers: Your Views of the Missed Shot?
« Reply #20 on: September 09, 2018, 03:08:26 PM »
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Re: LNers: Your Views of the Missed Shot?
« Reply #20 on: September 09, 2018, 03:08:26 PM »

Offline Joe Elliott

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Re: LNers: Your Views of the Missed Shot?
« Reply #21 on: September 09, 2018, 03:13:36 PM »
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Going back to the topic.  A shot landing near Tague, fired by LHO would have been wildly inaccurate, marked in red in the photo.  The only time frame he would have been able to fire a reasonable shot would have been late in the Z film when the limo was well past the Ft. Worth sign. 
  On the other hand, a line of sight from the fire escape area of the Dal-Tex to the limo (in black),  is easily easily seen for the timing of all shots suspected by the readers.   


Your?s is not a LN scenario. But ignoring that, how high up the fire escape of the Dal-Tex building would you think the shooter would be?
Level with which floor?
He needs to be high enough to clear the follow up car with the standing Secret Service agents on the running boards.

Offline Jerry Organ

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Re: LNers: Your Views of the Missed Shot?
« Reply #22 on: September 09, 2018, 03:54:15 PM »
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Going back to the topic.  A shot landing near Tague, fired by LHO would have been wildly inaccurate, marked in red in the photo.  The only time frame he would have been able to fire a reasonable shot would have been late in the Z film when the limo was well past the Ft. Worth sign. 
  On the other hand, a line of sight from the fire escape area of the Dal-Tex to the limo (in black),  is easily easily seen for the timing of all shots suspected by the readers.
LNers in general don't claim the curb strike was a directly fired shot from the SN. The only exception I know of is Edward Bauer, whom I recall (though I'm not sure) proposed Oswald's first shot was a "sighting-in" shot fired there.



I believe most researchers see the Tague curb strike as originating from a ricochet off the pavement (upper Elm) or a fragment from the head shot. The latter was first proposed by Josiah Thompson in his magnum opus Six Seconds in Dallas.

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Re: LNers: Your Views of the Missed Shot?
« Reply #22 on: September 09, 2018, 03:54:15 PM »

Offline Steve Taylor

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Re: LNers: Your Views of the Missed Shot?
« Reply #23 on: September 09, 2018, 04:40:51 PM »
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LNers in general don't claim the curb strike was a directly fired shot from the SN. The only exception I know of is Edward Bauer, whom I recall (though I'm not sure) proposed Oswald's first shot was a "sighting-in" shot fired there.



I believe most researchers see the Tague curb strike as originating from a ricochet off the pavement (upper Elm) or a fragment from the head shot. The latter was first proposed by Josiah Thompson in his magnum opus Six Seconds in Dallas.

Thanks for the info Jerry.  Then why was there a need to change from the FBI 3 shot scenario to the SBT with 2 hits and 1 miss in Tagues direction?  The WC seems to disagree with your theory. 

Offline Steve Taylor

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Re: LNers: Your Views of the Missed Shot?
« Reply #24 on: September 09, 2018, 04:53:59 PM »
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Your?s is not a LN scenario. But ignoring that, how high up the fire escape of the Dal-Tex building would you think the shooter would be?
Level with which floor?
He needs to be high enough to clear the follow up car with the standing Secret Service agents on the running boards.

I've got a suspected shooter on the 2nd floor, and it looks like he threaded the needle or possibly shot on the right hand side of the SS car.  It used to be clear to me that 2 shooters are on the 3rd floor, but last year I was told by a photo analyst that I'm wrong.  Not quite sure on that one now.  Zapruder's 4th floor and above also have some windows visible in different photos.

 

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Re: LNers: Your Views of the Missed Shot?
« Reply #24 on: September 09, 2018, 04:53:59 PM »

Offline Nicholas Turner

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Re: LNers: Your Views of the Missed Shot?
« Reply #25 on: September 09, 2018, 05:04:24 PM »
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I've got a suspected shooter on the 2nd floor, and it looks like he threaded the needle or possibly shot on the right hand side of the SS car.  It used to be clear to me that 2 shooters are on the 3rd floor, but last year I was told by a photo analyst that I'm wrong.  Not quite sure on that one now.  Zapruder's 4th floor and above also have some windows visible in different photos.



Why do you think those are 'shooters'?

Offline Jerry Organ

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Re: LNers: Your Views of the Missed Shot?
« Reply #26 on: September 09, 2018, 05:32:01 PM »
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Thanks for the info Jerry.  Then why was there a need to change from the FBI 3 shot scenario to the SBT with 2 hits and 1 miss in Tagues direction?  The WC seems to disagree with your theory.
The Tague trajectory graphic I provided is an illustration of the claim that the curb strike originated from the head shot metal fragmentation.

The WCR could not decide between the two explanations in my post.

    "Even if it were caused by a bullet fragment, the mark on the
     south curb of Main Street cannot be identified conclusively
     with any of the three shots fired. Under the circumstances it
     might have come from the bullet which hit the President's head,
     or it might have been a product of the fragmentation of the
     missed shot upon hitting some other object in the area."

So you now can fault them for not concluding anything about the Tague hit, just as you would fault them if they had concluded something.

With reference to your graphic, LNers generally do not contend the Tague hit was a direct-line shot from the SN window.

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Re: LNers: Your Views of the Missed Shot?
« Reply #26 on: September 09, 2018, 05:32:01 PM »

Offline Dillon Rankine

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Re: LNers: Your Views of the Missed Shot?
« Reply #27 on: September 09, 2018, 07:33:19 PM »
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Then why was there a need to change from the FBI 3 shot scenario to the SBT with 2 hits and 1 miss in Tagues direction?

The FBI initially believed (upon accepting Tague?s story) that it was a result of headshot fragmentation, and a few variations of a SBT were proposed at the autopsy. The SBT stands for a few reasons, chief them was the existence of only two bullets and the torso wounds to JFK. Despite weirdly prevalent assertions to the contrary, a ?shallow back wound? is physically impossible.   

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Re: LNers: Your Views of the Missed Shot?
« Reply #27 on: September 09, 2018, 07:33:19 PM »

Online Steve M. Galbraith

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Re: LNers: Your Views of the Missed Shot?
« Reply #28 on: September 10, 2018, 12:18:41 AM »
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The FBI initially believed (upon accepting Tague?s story) that it was a result of headshot fragmentation, and a few variations of a SBT were proposed at the autopsy. The SBT stands for a few reasons, chief them was the existence of only two bullets and the torso wounds to JFK. Despite weirdly prevalent assertions to the contrary, a ?shallow back wound? is physically impossible.   
Which "variation" of the SBT was proposed during the autopsy? I've never read that happened. From what I've read the autopsy doctors never considered the wounds on Connally. Why would they? Their job was to determine the cause of the injuries to JFK not Connally. Moreover, Humes said (the JAMA article, for example) they couldn't figure out where the bullet that entered the back went to. It wasn't until the next morning when he called Perry and learned that the tracheotomy covered a wound to the throat that he concluded it had exited there.

The FBI summary report didn't have access to the autopsy report and doesn't mention a bullet exiting JFK's throat/neck (as we've asked critics of the SBT: where did that go?). They relied on the Sibert and O'Neill account of the autopsy, an account which was incomplete and didn't mention a throat exit wound (because the autopsy doctors didn't consider it during the autopsy). From that the FBI concluded two shots hit JFK and a separate shot hit Connally. No SBT at all. No missed shots. Three shots, three hits.

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« Last Edit: September 10, 2018, 03:23:38 PM by Steve M. Galbraith »

Offline Micah Mileto

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Re: LNers: Your Views of the Missed Shot?
« Reply #29 on: September 10, 2018, 01:32:00 AM »
There is photographic evidence for Kenning reacting to some severe external stimulus as he was lowering his arm from waving for the last time, between frames z190-224.

From the 1971 paper in the Journal of Forensic Sciences, Photographic Evidence and the Assassination of President John F. Kennedy by Don Olson and Ralph Turner: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login



The Warren Commission believed that frames 225-230 represented the President's reactions to a shot fired somewhere in the interval of Zapruder frames 210-224, while the President was behind the road sign. However, certain observations in the Zapruder film will be noted here to indicate that the first wounding of the President may not have been blocked from the record by the road sign. The transition in the President's appearance between frames 183 and 230 (described above) in fact seems to begin with certain reactions in the intervals of frames 194-206.

First, a general trend in the frames 194-206 may be noted. Beginning as early as frame 194, the President's body seems to undergo a motion forward and to the left. This motion, which can be visually approximated to be on the order of six or seven inches, seems to begin in frame 194 and continues through about frame 200. The President seems to move away from the seat back and tilt to to the left, away from the window ledge.

[...]

"Study of the frames reveals further information. Recalling the descriptions above, it is clear that between frames 183 and 230, two specific changes occurred in the President's position. First, the President turned his head and shoulders back from the crowd until he was facing forward. Also, the President's right arm moved from a position with the elbow below a chrome strip on the outside of the car, into a position with the arm and elbow well inside the car and raised almost to chin level. These frames and motions have been described in such great detail because both of these specific changes in Kennedy can be observed to occur in the "early Zapruder frames," i.e., those before the President disappears from view behind the road sign. In this context, It happens that frame 204 is very important.

On the interval the President's body is seen to narrow somewhat to the view, indicating that he not only leans to the Left front, but also is rotated to the left. The rotation of the shoulders begins as early as frame 195. His head comes around at 200-202. By frame 204 the President is facing almost directly forward.

As the President moves and rotates to the left, his right arm is pulled back into the car. While his elbow has been resting outside the car, it comes up noticeably at frame 195. The President's elbow can be seen to cross the chrome strip on the side of the car at frames As President Kennedy disappears from view behind the sign, his right arm seems to he in a particularly unusual position the clearly visible gray of his suit coat indicating that his right arm and elbow have been raised at least to the level of his chin."

From the 9/12/1978 testimony of Calvin McCamy, spokesman for the HSCA photographic evidence panel: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login

There is considerable blurring at this point. The President's arm is up in a waving position. His head is still toward the right. At this point there is considerable blur, and by here, it appears as though his head is beginning to turn quite rapidly to the left. His head is now to the left. That is only one-eighteenth of a second from one frame to the next. He continues to look toward the left. One barely sees his right ear toward the camera. It is quite clear he is here now looking directly at his wife. He and his wife can be seen looking at one another in this sequence. He now goes behind the sign, and only a fraction of a second later we see his hands moving upward. He has a gasping expression. His hands are in a classic position of a person who has been startled. He now begins to raise his arms into what I would call a defensive position. He may be clutching at the throat wound.

From the HSCA photographic evidence panel's final report: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login

(64) (a) By a vote of 12 to 5, the Panel determined that President Kennedy first showed a reaction to some severe external stimulus by Zapruder frame 207 as he is seen going behind a street sign that obstructed Zapruder's view.

(65) (b) By a vote of 11 to 3, the Panel determined that Governor Connally first showed a reaction to some severe external stimulus by Zapruder frame 224, virtually immediately after he is seen emerging from behind the sign that obstructed Zapruder's view."

[...]

(69) During the period of Connally's initial rapid movement, however, no one else shows a comparable reaction. The President does not appear to react to anything unusual prior to Zapruder frame 190. The Panel observed, however, that at approximately this time, a young girl who had been running across the grass, beyond the far curb of the street where the limousine was traveling, suddenly began to stop and turn sharply to her right, looking up the street in a direction behind the limousine.

(70) At approximately Zapruder frame 200, Kennedy's movements suddenly freeze; his right hand abruptly stops in the midst of a waving motion and his head moves rapidly from right to his left in the direction of his wife. Based on these movements, it appears that by the time the President goes behind the sign at frame 207 he is evidencing some kind of reaction to a severe external stimulus. By the time he emerges from behind the sign at Zapruder frame 225, the President makes a clutching motion with his hands toward his neck, indicating clearly that he has been shot.

HSCA photographic panelist Cecil Kirk's testimony at the 1986 mock trial of Lee Harvey Oswald:

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Re: LNers: Your Views of the Missed Shot?
« Reply #29 on: September 10, 2018, 01:32:00 AM »

 

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