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Author Topic: Who was the "agent" patrolman Joe Smith encountered behind grassy knoll?  (Read 19948 times)

Offline Barry Pollard

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Hi Barry, can you please be  clearer for everyone than the fuzzy, zoomed-in film frames you posted,  and  simply arrow-point-out  (or simply circle)  in much clearer aftermath, zoomed-in  film frames  exactly which person you  believe  is DPD patrolman  Joe Marshall Smith  by-passing the much closer TSBD, while he was running towards his  gun smoke smelling encounter atop the  grassy knoll, behind the North Pergola with the Secret Service  identification-flashing,  fake "agent"?

Also, do you know how many seconds after the last shot that the 'Couch film' frames was started to be captured that reveal for us the TSBD and Houston-Elm intersection north curb witnesses?


Susan, sorry I missed this... the Couch that I grabbed those frames from was the best I had available a stabilzed gif from Gerda which was focusing on something else and would never have noticed this person without it(blink and you miss him on the extreme right in the real thinghttps://youtu.be/S6l410TFK4c?t=14m47s but he's still there, freeze that frame )and I think I've made it quite clear already but if it helps he's on the right in both frames coming from behind the concrete pillar/monument, he's only seen in those two frames and I posted focused crops of both. I also posted a blow-up of the man and yes it's a bit blurry but I think it helps see the white cap on his head.

As for the timing well, first watch the same cop heading for his area/in this direction, his appearance from behind the pillar is mear seconds later it's all in the same unedited Couch clip.
Thirty seconds after Z313 approx is when Couch looks down the street and we see Hargis still on the north sidewalk about to cross back to his bike. So IMHO Smith came from the Houston intersection right past the TSBD and headed for Elm proper via this little walled off area, in fact I think it's obvious, The only problem is the idea that he probably had to head straight down the extension toward the knoll in order to bump into the "Agent".  If and it's a big if, he's already been told by a woman where to look, that still doesn't mean he didn't head toward the street first, I think he did and I think Couch/Gerda proves it. That's all if it's Smith of course... and if you think that's him in Couch then you'll eventuallly realise that in there we see him heading for Elm and not directly toward the GK/RRY.

Fwiw I believe him too but I think instinct sent him toward Elm first, then he went toward the RRY, how long after this clip I have no idea, perhaps less than 20s later or maybe even 30. Haygood is in the same clip still on his bike, in less than 10s he will try to mount the sidewalk on either pure instinct or that radio message, despite what he said about people pointing that way, he failed of course but within 25s of Couch he will be running up the knoll toward the Underpass which sent everyone following him including the previously unmoveable Robert Jackson.
Haygood claimed that people pointed him toward the knoll too, literally "pointing that way" but there is no evidence of this anywhere, all evidence suggests he himself was the first and everyone reacted to him. I'd like to know when exactly Smith was directed toward the knoll but I'm fine with the fact that it may have came from a woman still stood on Elm.

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Online Royell Storing

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Susan, sorry I missed this... the Couch that I grabbed those frames from was the best I had available a stabilzed gif from Gerda which was focusing on something else and would never have noticed this person without it(blink and you miss him on the extreme right in the real thinghttps://youtu.be/S6l410TFK4c?t=14m47s but he's still there, freeze that frame )and I think I've made it quite clear already but if it helps he's on the right in both frames coming from behind the concrete pillar/monument, he's only seen in those two frames and I posted focused crops of both. I also posted a blow-up of the man and yes it's a bit blurry but I think it helps see the white cap on his head.

As for the timing well, first watch the same cop heading for his area/in this direction, his appearance from behind the pillar is mear seconds later it's all in the same unedited Couch clip.
Thirty seconds after Z313 approx is when Couch looks down the street and we see Hargis still on the north sidewalk about to cross back to his bike. So IMHO Smith came from the Houston intersection right past the TSBD and headed for Elm proper via this little walled off area, in fact I think it's obvious, The only problem is the idea that he probably had to head straight down the extension toward the knoll in order to bump into the "Agent".  If and it's a big if, he's already been told by a woman where to look, that still doesn't mean he didn't head toward the street first, I think he did and I think Couch/Gerda proves it. That's all if it's Smith of course... and if you think that's him in Couch then you'll eventuallly realise that in there we see him heading for Elm and not directly toward the GK/RRY.

Fwiw I believe him too but I think instinct sent him toward Elm first, then he went toward the RRY, how long after this clip I have no idea, perhaps less than 20s later or maybe even 30. Haygood is in the same clip still on his bike, in less than 10s he will try to mount the sidewalk on either pure instinct or that radio message, despite what he said about people pointing that way, he failed of course but within 25s of Couch he will be running up the knoll toward the Underpass which sent everyone following him including the previously unmoveable Robert Jackson.
Haygood claimed that people pointed him toward the knoll too, literally "pointing that way" but there is no evidence of this anywhere, all evidence suggests he himself was the first and everyone reacted to him. I'd like to know when exactly Smith was directed toward the knoll but I'm fine with the fact that it may have came from a woman still stood on Elm.

       If you look Closely at the route that Officer Haygood took after managing to stand his motorcycle up at the curb, he crosses the sidewalk and heads STRAIGHT UP THE KNOLL. Haygood runs Directly Toward the picket fence at the Top of the knoll. When Haygood is at a position on the Knoll that is higher than the Fort Worth sign, he Suddenly Veers to his Left and runs Diagonally up the Knoll toward the Triple Underpass.  Something attracted Haygood's attention prompting him to Abruptly change his intended destination of the picket fence/parking lot. That Something diverted him to the Top of the Triple Underpass/Railyard area. 

Offline Barry Pollard

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Hi Royell,
even if he had ran straight for the fence and climbed over it, what would have been his motivation? The radio message to get up there and see what's going on is the only one I can think of because I see no one pointing that way and no evidence of anyone going in that direction before him.
Which film tells  you he was heading initially for the fence? I've never noticed that.

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Online Royell Storing

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Hi Royell,
even if he had ran straight for the fence and climbed over it, what would have been his motivation? The radio message to get up there and see what's going on is the only one I can think of because I see no one pointing that way and no evidence of anyone going in that direction before him.
Which film tells  you he was heading initially for the fence? I've never noticed that.

    Good copies of the Bell Film and the Hughes Film will give you a view of the initial route UP the knoll taken by Officer Haygood. In the Hughes Film after Haygood emerges from behind the Fort Worth sign, you can even see an eyewitness in street clothes heading UP the knoll to the West/Left of The Steps. This sequence in both films was taken amidst the camera cars traveling down Elm St/East of the Triple Underpass, and is allegedly less than 1 minute following the assassination. This would be extremely early for any member of the general public to physically be on that section of the Knoll and moving UP toward the picket fence. I believe this eyewitness is a still unidentified Lone Wolf. As technology improves providing us with relatively Detailed JFK assassination films and photographs, the more it becomes obvious that many pieces to this puzzle are missing. 

Offline Susan Wilde

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I see that in Powell's testimony that he  stated that,  at all times,  his "Minolta" 35mm camera was  clearly visible in plain view to anyone,  hanging by its camera strap around his neck.

Most likely/more than likely a 35mm camera hanging from and  motions-swinging from the neck of anyone  who was also  claiming to be a  "Secret Service Agent" is something that encountering witnesses would have also been  attracted to see, and would,  most  definitely, recall seeing.  A 35mm camera would have been  especially recalled by  trained law enforcement  professionals,  who during those especially anxious Dealey Plaza moments immediately after the shots were naturally professionally suspicious, and who witnessed a camera hanging/swinging from an "agent's" neck.

No  witnesses to any of the  "agents" that multiple witnesses  and multiple  professional law enforcement officers encountered between 12:30 PM and when Sorrels returned have ever stated that ANY, supposed, "Secret Service Agent" displayed a 35mm camera hanging/swinging from his neck,  nor has any witness ever said that the self-claiming,  "Secret Service" identification-flashing  grassy knoll "agent" was carrying a 35mm camera in his hands.

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Offline Barry Pollard

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    Good copies of the Bell Film and the Hughes Film will give you a view of the initial route UP the knoll taken by Officer Haygood. In the Hughes Film after Haygood emerges from behind the Fort Worth sign, you can even see an eyewitness in street clothes heading UP the knoll to the West/Left of The Steps. This sequence in both films was taken amidst the camera cars traveling down Elm St/East of the Triple Underpass, and is allegedly less than 1 minute following the assassination. This would be extremely early for any member of the general public to physically be on that section of the Knoll and moving UP toward the picket fence. I believe this eyewitness is a still unidentified Lone Wolf. As technology improves providing us with relatively Detailed JFK assassination films and photographs, the more it becomes obvious that many pieces to this puzzle are missing.

Hughes yes, thanks, I see it, a couple seconds where he's moving, it's debatable. Would be nice to see it stabilized.
There's no one else up there before Haygood at least I don't see anyone except a tree trunk and there's no evidence of anyone pointing the way for him, Curry's order to get up there could well his only motivation, that and the unusual scene he came upon, strange that he would remember it another way but a cross examination may have helped jog his memory. If Curry gave that order within about 30s IMO Haygood's brave reaction syncs rather nicely, a real shame he didn't make that jump. Shooting happens in the last seconds of 12:30pm I think, Curry's message in 12:31pm, I also think it's about a minute for Haygood to reach the corner so almost 12:32pm(that is of course if you ignore the testimony and just focus on the film etc). Within 3mins he's on the radio talking about a witness who was stood near the TSBD, has to be Jackson.

Online Royell Storing

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Hughes yes, thanks, I see it, a couple seconds where he's moving, it's debatable. Would be nice to see it stabilized.
There's no one else up there before Haygood at least I don't see anyone except a tree trunk and there's no evidence of anyone pointing the way for him, Curry's order to get up there could well his only motivation, that and the unusual scene he came upon, strange that he would remember it another way but a cross examination may have helped jog his memory. If Curry gave that order within about 30s IMO Haygood's brave reaction syncs rather nicely, a real shame he didn't make that jump. Shooting happens in the last seconds of 12:30pm I think, Curry's message in 12:31pm, I also think it's about a minute for Haygood to reach the corner so almost 12:32pm(that is of course if you ignore the testimony and just focus on the film etc). Within 3mins he's on the radio talking about a witness who was stood near the TSBD, has to be Jackson.

      If Officer Haygood had initially intended to run directly toward the Triple Underpass/Railroad Yard after standing his motorcycle at the curb, he would have run Diagonally toward the Fort Worth Sign. This would have kept the Fort Worth sign between him and any possible shooter(s) atop the Triple Underpass/inside the railroad yard. Instead, Haygood for whatever reason went directly from his motorcycle Straight UP the Knoll & Directly toward the picket fence.
      I mention the eyewitness running Up the knoll/toward the Picket Fence at the same time that Haygood can be seen clearing the Fort Worth sign, due to this eyewitness corroborating the Statement Filed by SA Landis on 11/22/63. SA Landis was positioned on the (R) running board of the Queen Mary, and in his statement Landis said Before going under the Triple Underpass, he saw a black man in light green slacks and a beige shirt running across the Knoll in this same area.

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Offline Susan Wilde

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Another very  important fact with respect to Dallas police patrolman Joe Smith smelling the distinctive smell of  gun smoke right before his  encounter 1 to 2 minutes after the shots ended with the fake impostor  "Secret Service" credentials flashing  "agent"  west of the TSBD near the  grassy knoll  picket fence and North Pergola,  is that the wind was documented by the weather service and documented in DP photos of witnesses clothes as blowing  northeastward ;  the wind during the shots was  blowing  FROM  the Triple Overpass,  TOWARDS  the TSBD