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Author Topic: Whose Target was General Edwin Walker?  (Read 33615 times)

Offline Rob Caprio

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Re: Whose Target was General Edwin Walker?
« Reply #200 on: September 06, 2018, 09:46:18 PM »
Officer C said he turned it over to Officer B who gave it to Detective D.
Det D said that B and C gave it to A.
There are are real names but it will take the time later ;)
Found it....https://richardcharnin.wordpress.com/2015/05/19/judyth-baker-lee-harvey-oswald-did-not-shoot-at-general-walker/

I already know that there is none, but I was hoping that one LNer would at least try.

Offline John Iacoletti

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Re: Whose Target was General Edwin Walker?
« Reply #201 on: September 06, 2018, 11:30:15 PM »
I already know that there is none, but I was hoping that one LNer would at least try.

They generally think that if anybody rattles off a list of names that's good enough.

Offline John Mytton

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Re: Whose Target was General Edwin Walker?
« Reply #202 on: September 06, 2018, 11:36:42 PM »
Yes he did. "By US Senate G.Robert Blakey Committee on Assassinations," as he calls it. The HSCA hearings were televised. Those hearings were also recorded as transcripts and published as the first five volumes of the HSCA hearings and exhibits. So, where did anyone show CE573 and/or a picture thereof during those hearings? A couple of oldtimers have said that it wasn't shown during the hearings. I've searched, but I haven't been find anything in the hearings that indicates that they publicly showed it or a photo of it. I can't find it in the list of HSCA hearings exhibits either.

You're right CE573 wasn't a HSCA exhibit.

JohnM

Offline Mitch Todd

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Re: Whose Target was General Edwin Walker?
« Reply #203 on: September 07, 2018, 12:36:55 AM »
As far as you know?  Did you attend the hearings?

Didn't have to. They were televised and videotaped. There used to be guys who'd sell you the whole thing on VHS, and I'll bet you can find the bulk of the hearings (and maybe everything) if you look long enough on Youtube. You don't have to do that, though. The hearings were also transcribed and printed as the first five volumes of the HSCA set. You can search those if you wish. I've never found where they showed CE573 (also "walker bullet," etc) or a photo of it.

Offline Rob Caprio

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Re: Whose Target was General Edwin Walker?
« Reply #204 on: September 07, 2018, 12:59:43 AM »
They generally think that if anybody rattles off a list of names that's good enough.

Pretty much. 👍

Offline Rob Caprio

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Re: Whose Target was General Edwin Walker?
« Reply #205 on: September 07, 2018, 01:18:32 AM »
Yes he did. "By US Senate G.Robert Blakey Committee on Assassinations," as he calls it. The HSCA hearings were televised. Those hearings were also recorded as transcripts and published as the first five volumes of the HSCA hearings and exhibits. So, where did anyone show CE573 and/or a picture thereof during those hearings? A couple of oldtimers have said that it wasn't shown during the hearings. I've searched, but I haven't been find anything in the hearings that indicates that they publicly showed it or a photo of it. I can't find it in the list of HSCA hearings exhibits either.

So you think EAW was lying? He surely saw CE 573 during the life of the WC and he said that it was NOT the bullet he saw and held on the evening of April 10, 1963.

Offline Mitch Todd

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Re: Whose Target was General Edwin Walker?
« Reply #206 on: September 07, 2018, 01:22:19 AM »
That's a good question.  Also, how could anyone else determine that "a bullet completely mutilated" was a steel jacketed 6.5mm Mannlicher Carcano bullet?

"Mr. FRAZIER - I was unable to reach a conclusion as to whether or not it had been fired from this rifle. The conclusion went slightly further than that, in that we determined that the general rifling characteristics of the rifle 139 are of the same type as those found on the bullet, Exhibit 573, and, further, on this basis, that the bullet could have been fired from the rifle on the basis of its land and groove impressions. And, second, that all of the remaining physical characteristics of this bullet, 573, are the same as Western 6.5 mm. Mannlicher-Carcano bullets of the type normally loaded in ammunition made for this rifle, 139. However, the mutilation of the nose of the bullet has eliminated the length characteristics, and it cannot be definitely stated that Exhibit 573 is in fact a Western Cartridge Co. product, but all of the remaining characteristics of base shape, distance from the base to the cannelure, the width of the cannelure, and the overall appearance, coloration, and so forth, are similar to Western ammunition."
[...]
Mr. EISENBERG - Can you describe the general rifling characteristics which you referred to?
Mr. FRAZIER - Yes. They consist of impressions from four lands and grooves. The bullet is mutilated on a portion of its surface. However, it can be determined that there were four land impressions and four groove impressions originally on this bullet.
The width of the land impression is 7/100ths of an inch, that is 0.07 inch--whereas the width of the groove impression is 0.13 inch, or 13/100ths of an inch.
The bullet is flattened so that it was not possible to measure its diameter. However, by adding the land width to the groove width, and multiplying by the number of lands and grooves, you can determine the circumference of the bullet and mathematically determine its diameter, which in this case corresponds to 6.5 mm. ammunition, or approximately .267 inch.
Mr. EISENBERG - What was the direction of the twist?
Mr. FRAZIER - To the right."

So, working backwards from the circumference at the (relatively undisturbed) base the bullet was originally .267" across, within expectations of what you'd see for a WCC 6.5mm Carcano (.268")  bullet in that condition. It has 4 sets of lands and groove in a right twist, like a Carcano.  Rifling rate appears to be Carcano-consistent:

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_6kYzhJGqq2M/TIN59nj-vbI/AAAAAAAAFQI/orGtgLLWo-E/s1600/CE573+&+CE399+Comparison.jpg

So, nothing that unequivocally screams "I AM A WCC 6.5MM CARCANO BULLET TO THE EXCLUSION OF ALL OTHER RIFLES," but all measurable parameters are consistent with a WCC 6.5mm Carcano round.

So:
"Mr. EISENBERG - But you do conclude that this was fired from a Mannlicher-Carcano 91/38, or a rifle with similar barrel characteristics?
Mr. FRAZIER - Yes, sir."

If you can find a ballistics expert who can look at the data and differ, please fell free...


Offline Rob Caprio

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Re: Whose Target was General Edwin Walker?
« Reply #207 on: September 07, 2018, 01:23:26 AM »
In his 1979 letter, Walker described it as "a bullet completely mutilated." How would Walker (or anyone else) determine that "a bullet completely mutilated" was .30 caliber, much less .a 30-06. BTW, remember that ".30-06" specifies a cartridge, and not necessarily a bullet.  How would anyone be able to just look at the mangled metal that Walker describes and say "oh, this is from a .30-06" and not from (say) a .308 or 7.62x54 Nagant or .303 Enfield or .300 savage or .300 Winchester Magnum or .30-40 Krag?

Your point is moot since CE 573 is NOT completely mutilated.

Offline Mitch Todd

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Re: Whose Target was General Edwin Walker?
« Reply #208 on: September 07, 2018, 01:24:12 AM »
The silvery-looking jackets aren't steel but cupronickel, FYI

T.Y.  I am aware of the fact....  The point is ...The 6.5mm bullets of Italian manufacture were "silvery-looking" like steel...
If the bullet that was fired through Walker's window was in fact a 6.5mm bullet from a carcano there is a 99.8 probability that it was "silvery looking"    If it was copper colored it was manufactured for the CIA......

Some of the Italian ammunition. Re-read the ref I posted:

""Ball 'Cartucce a pallottola' or 'Cartuccia a palla ordinaria'
    Round nose, full metal jacket bullet with lead core, jacket materials include copper-nickle, gilding metal, copper-nickle plated steel and gilding metal plated steel.""

Offline Mitch Todd

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Re: Whose Target was General Edwin Walker?
« Reply #209 on: September 07, 2018, 01:27:55 AM »
Your point is moot since CE 573 is NOT completely mutilated.
Show me exactly what Walker would consider "completely mutilated" and what he would not consider "completely mutilated," with examples.  CE573 looks pretty damned mutilated to me. BTW, what do you think he was looking at in the televised HSCA hearings that he thought CE573 was?

 

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