Author Topic: The evolution of CE 142 - what the flap?  (Read 272597 times)

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Offline Gary Craig

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Re: The evolution of CE 142 - what the flap?
« Reply #2842 on: March 19, 2017, 05:25:14 PM »
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Well, it was Marvin Johnson (report written on 26/11/1963) who took Baker's affidavit and you can clearly see the "encounter" took place on the 4th floor.

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Wasnt Lee in a lunchroom on the second floor post shots?

If Mr Truly was ahead of Baker, how could Baker encounter Lee before Mr Truly does?

The Fourth floor encounter makes no sense because there were at least 6 - 8 women on that floor and no one mentioned this encounter nor seeing Lee on the Fourth floor.

One could speculate:

Oswald was in the 2nd floor lunchroom and they also encountered a suspect on the 4th floor stairs.

Being intent on reaching the roof , where Baker thought the shots came from, both were let go.

The inconvenient 4th floor meeting was discarded/changed to Baker mistaking his location once Ozzie was

murdered and no trial/search for the truth was forthcoming.

Online Walt Cakebread

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Re: The evolution of CE 142 - what the flap?
« Reply #2843 on: March 19, 2017, 07:27:54 PM »
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Well, it was Marvin Johnson (report written on 26/11/1963) who took Baker's affidavit and you can clearly see the "encounter" took place on the 4th floor.

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Wasnt Lee in a lunchroom on the second floor post shots?

If Mr Truly was ahead of Baker, how could Baker encounter Lee before Mr Truly does?

The Fourth floor encounter makes no sense because there were at least 6 - 8 women on that floor and no one mentioned this encounter nor seeing Lee on the Fourth floor.

The Fourth floor encounter makes no sense

I agree.....but Baker thought ( guessed) it was either the third or fourth floor ....so it could have been the fourth or fifth floor....and the fifth floor is ideal...because that is where Jack Dougherty was.

Online Tony Fratini

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Re: The evolution of CE 142 - what the flap?
« Reply #2844 on: March 20, 2017, 12:24:23 AM »
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The Fourth floor encounter makes no sense

I agree.....but Baker thought ( guessed) it was either the third or fourth floor ....so it could have been the fourth or fifth floor....and the fifth floor is ideal...because that is where Jack Dougherty was.

Walt,

how could Mr Truly "miss" this encounter on a higher floor if he was ahead of Baker on the stairs?

Baker's first day recollections are at odds with Mr Truly's.

How could a second encounter be possible and Mr Truly not vouching for it?

A mess is what it was. I guess this necessitated the need for Belin and Ball to go down to the TSBD and "sort it all out" using a stopwatch and leaving out Dougherty and Adams in their reconstructions.  :pp:

The "eventual" consensus was an encounter (Baker/LHO) in the lunchroom on the second floor.


« Last Edit: March 20, 2017, 12:34:34 AM
by Tony Fratini
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Online Walt Cakebread

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Re: The evolution of CE 142 - what the flap?
« Reply #2845 on: March 20, 2017, 12:41:26 AM »
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Walt,

how could Mr Truly "miss" this encounter on a higher floor if he was ahead of Baker on the stairs?

Baker's first day recollections are at odds with Mr Truly's.

How could a second encounter be possible and Mr Truly not vouching for it?

A mess is what it was. I guess this necessitated the need for Belin and Ball to go down to the TSBD and "sort it all out" using a stopwatch and leaving out Dougherty and Adams in their reconstructions.  :pp:

The consensus was an encounter in the lunchroom on the second floor.


how could Mr Truly "miss" this encounter on a higher floor if he was ahead of Baker on the stairs?

You assume Truly missed the 165 pound man with dark hair and a tan jacket.....  Truly may deliberately tried to  squeeze by the man....

Baker's first day recollections are at odds with Mr Truly's.

I don't think Baker was sent the memo.....  But he caught on pretty quick.

How could a second encounter be possible and Mr Truly not vouching for it?

Personally.... I think Truly did vouch for the man....

Online Tony Fratini

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Re: The evolution of CE 142 - what the flap?
« Reply #2846 on: March 20, 2017, 01:05:09 AM »
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how could Mr Truly "miss" this encounter on a higher floor if he was ahead of Baker on the stairs?

You assume Truly missed the 165 pound man with dark hair and a tan jacket.....  Truly may deliberately tried to  squeeze by the man....

Baker's first day recollections are at odds with Mr Truly's.

I don't think Baker was sent the memo.....  But he caught on pretty quick.

How could a second encounter be possible and Mr Truly not vouching for it?

Personally.... I think Truly did vouch for the man....

Walt,

it was difficult to sort out what actually happened post shots if one reads the testimonies and the affidavits.

A photo of Jack dougherty would be so helpful just to rule him out.

FEDERAL BUREAU OF INVESTIGATION

Date 12/5/63

Mrs. ERIC (CAROLYN) WALTHER, 4118 Shelley, Dallas, Texas, Stated she is employed in the cutting room for Miller and Randazzo, a dress factory, on the third floor of the Dal-Tex Mart Building, 501 Elm Street, Dallas.

On November 22, 1963 she and another employee, Mrs. PEARL SPRINGER, ate lunch at 12:00 noon and left the lunch room at about 12:20 PM to go down on the street to see President KENNEDY ridy by. They walked out of the front door of the building, crossed the street, and stopped at a point on the east side of Houston Street, about fifty or sixty feet south of the south curb of Elm Street. They stopped next to the curb to await the passing of the President. While standing there, she started looking around, and looked over toward the Texas School Book Depository (TSBD) Building. She noticed a man wearing a brown suit and a very dark shirt leaning out a window of the third floo, somewhere about the middle window of the third floor. Shortly after this, a man in the crowed across the street to the west of where she was standing apparently had an epileptic seizure, and an ambulance came by and took the man away. Shortly after the ambulance left, she looked back towards the TSBD Building and saw a man standing on either the fourth of fifth floors, of the window on the south side of the building, which faces toward Elm Street. This man had the window open and was standing up leaning out the window with both his hands extended outside the window ledge. In his hands, this man was holding a rifle with the barrel pointed downward, and the man was looking south on Houston Street. The man was wearing a white shirt and had hand blond or light brown hair. She recalled at the time that she had not noticed the man there a few moments previously when she looked toward the building and thought that apparently there were guards everywhere. The rifle had a hort barrel and seemed large around the stock or end of the rifle. Her impression was that the gun was a machine gun. She noticed nothing like a telescope sight on the rifle or a leather strap or sling on the rifle. She said she knows nothing about rifles or guns of any type, but thought that the rifle was different from any she had ever seen. This man was standing in about the middle of the window. In this same window, to the left of this man, she could see a portion of another man standing by the side of the man with a rifle. This other man was standing erect, and his head was above the opened portion of the window. As the window was very dirty, she could not see the head of this second man. She is positive this window was not as high as the sixth floor. This second man was apparently wearing a brown suit coat, and the only thing she could see was the right side of the man, from about the waist to the soulders.

Almost immediately after noticing this man with the rifle and the other man standing beside him, someone in the crowd said "Here they come." and she looked to her left, looking south on Houston Street, to see the Presidential Party. As soon as President KENNEDY's car passed where she was standing, she and Mrs. SPRINGER turned away and stared walking north towards Elm Street. At about the time they reached the curb at Elm Street, she heard a loud report and thought it was fireworks. There was a pause after the first report, then a second and third report almost at the same time, and then a pause followed by at least one and possibly more reports. The noise seemed to come from up in the air, but she never looked up in that direction. When the second report sounded, she decided it was gunfire, so she and Mrs. SPRINGER started diagonally across the street toward the TSBD Building. About the time she got across the street, she heard someone yell that the preident had been hit. She stopped a moment and listened to the police radio on a motorcycle, then returned to the building across the street where she works. She returned to her job at about 12:45 PM.

on 12/4/63 at Dallas, Texas File # DL 89-43

By Special Agent C. RAY HALL AND MARGIE J. WHITE Date Dictated 12/5/63

Same man that Baker encountered?
« Last Edit: March 20, 2017, 01:32:07 AM
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Online Walt Cakebread

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Re: The evolution of CE 142 - what the flap?
« Reply #2847 on: March 20, 2017, 03:49:53 PM »
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Walt,

it was difficult to sort out what actually happened post shots if one reads the testimonies and the affidavits.

A photo of Jack dougherty would be so helpful just to rule him out.

FEDERAL BUREAU OF INVESTIGATION

Date 12/5/63

Mrs. ERIC (CAROLYN) WALTHER, 4118 Shelley, Dallas, Texas, Stated she is employed in the cutting room for Miller and Randazzo, a dress factory, on the third floor of the Dal-Tex Mart Building, 501 Elm Street, Dallas.

On November 22, 1963 she and another employee, Mrs. PEARL SPRINGER, ate lunch at 12:00 noon and left the lunch room at about 12:20 PM to go down on the street to see President KENNEDY ridy by. They walked out of the front door of the building, crossed the street, and stopped at a point on the east side of Houston Street, about fifty or sixty feet south of the south curb of Elm Street. They stopped next to the curb to await the passing of the President. While standing there, she started looking around, and looked over toward the Texas School Book Depository (TSBD) Building. She noticed a man wearing a brown suit and a very dark shirt leaning out a window of the third floo, somewhere about the middle window of the third floor. Shortly after this, a man in the crowed across the street to the west of where she was standing apparently had an epileptic seizure, and an ambulance came by and took the man away. Shortly after the ambulance left, she looked back towards the TSBD Building and saw a man standing on either the fourth of fifth floors, of the window on the south side of the building, which faces toward Elm Street. This man had the window open and was standing up leaning out the window with both his hands extended outside the window ledge. In his hands, this man was holding a rifle with the barrel pointed downward, and the man was looking south on Houston Street. The man was wearing a white shirt and had hand blond or light brown hair. She recalled at the time that she had not noticed the man there a few moments previously when she looked toward the building and thought that apparently there were guards everywhere. The rifle had a hort barrel and seemed large around the stock or end of the rifle. Her impression was that the gun was a machine gun. She noticed nothing like a telescope sight on the rifle or a leather strap or sling on the rifle. She said she knows nothing about rifles or guns of any type, but thought that the rifle was different from any she had ever seen. This man was standing in about the middle of the window. In this same window, to the left of this man, she could see a portion of another man standing by the side of the man with a rifle. This other man was standing erect, and his head was above the opened portion of the window. As the window was very dirty, she could not see the head of this second man. She is positive this window was not as high as the sixth floor. This second man was apparently wearing a brown suit coat, and the only thing she could see was the right side of the man, from about the waist to the soulders.

Almost immediately after noticing this man with the rifle and the other man standing beside him, someone in the crowd said "Here they come." and she looked to her left, looking south on Houston Street, to see the Presidential Party. As soon as President KENNEDY's car passed where she was standing, she and Mrs. SPRINGER turned away and stared walking north towards Elm Street. At about the time they reached the curb at Elm Street, she heard a loud report and thought it was fireworks. There was a pause after the first report, then a second and third report almost at the same time, and then a pause followed by at least one and possibly more reports. The noise seemed to come from up in the air, but she never looked up in that direction. When the second report sounded, she decided it was gunfire, so she and Mrs. SPRINGER started diagonally across the street toward the TSBD Building. About the time she got across the street, she heard someone yell that the preident had been hit. She stopped a moment and listened to the police radio on a motorcycle, then returned to the building across the street where she works. She returned to her job at about 12:45 PM.

on 12/4/63 at Dallas, Texas File # DL 89-43

By Special Agent C. RAY HALL AND MARGIE J. WHITE Date Dictated 12/5/63

Same man that Baker encountered?


She noticed a man wearing a brown suit and a very dark shirt

I don't think this is the man that Baker described.......Baker said nothing about the man being dressed in a suit with a dark shirt.....

I do believe that Baker was NOT recalling his encounter with LEE in the lunchroom because by all accounts that encounter was totally unmemorable.....

However the encounter with a man on a floor higher than the second floor was more memorable and that's what Baker was recalling when he wrote his affidavit.

If Baker thought that his encounter with Lee was on the first floor ( an easy mistake to make, and many did think the second floor was the first floor ) then his encounter with the 165 pound man with dark hair and wearing a tan jacket would have been on either the fourth or fifth floor.

But the fourth floor is out.....Baker could not have encountered the man on the fourth...

Online Tony Fratini

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Re: The evolution of CE 142 - what the flap?
« Reply #2848 on: March 21, 2017, 06:43:47 AM »
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She noticed a man wearing a brown suit and a very dark shirt

I don't think this is the man that Baker described.......Baker said nothing about the man being dressed in a suit with a dark shirt.....

I do believe that Baker was NOT recalling his encounter with LEE in the lunchroom because by all accounts that encounter was totally unmemorable.....

However the encounter with a man on a floor higher than the second floor was more memorable and that's what Baker was recalling when he wrote his affidavit.

If Baker thought that his encounter with Lee was on the first floor ( an easy mistake to make, and many did think the second floor was the first floor ) then his encounter with the 165 pound man with dark hair and wearing a tan jacket would have been on either the fourth or fifth floor.

But the fourth floor is out.....Baker could not have encountered the man on the fourth...


Walt,

Could have been an officer worker on one of the upper floors?

Just another blind alley that no longer can be investigated unfortunately.

Like with CE 142 - EVERY officer who was on the 6th floor and mentioned seeing a paper bag/sack/wrapper/loose paper should have been shown CE 142 or the replica sack for validation. They should also been shown the chicken lunch sack.

The questioning itself was very confusing even for the Detectives who "saw" it.

Mr. BALL. You found the sack in the area marked 2 on Exhibit J to the Studebaker deposition. Did you pick the sack up?
Mr. MONTGOMERY. Which sack are we talking about now?
Mr. BALL. The paper sack?
Mr. MONTGOMERY. The small one or the larger one?
Mr. BALL. The larger one you mentioned that was in position 2.
Mr. MONTGOMERY. Yes.
Mr. BALL. You picked it up?
Mr. MONTGOMERY. Wait just a minute no; I didn't pick it up. I believe Mr. Studebaker did. We left it laying right there so they could check it for prints.

Mr. BELIN. Did you ever dust it for prints or not, or do you know?
Mr. JOHNSON. Well, now, the lunch sack itself, sir?
Mr. BELIN. Yes.
Mr. JOHNSON. I don't know whether they did or not. Now that sack we are talking about, it was dusted right there at the scene.
Mr. BELIN. That is the long paper sack you found in the southeast corner? I mean as far as the lunch sack is concerned?
Mr. JOHNSON. No, the lunch sack, I don't know. We turned it in, but I never did hear after that what he did with it. I am pretty sure they did use it for something.

Amateurish at best.