Author Topic: The evolution of CE 142 - what the flap?  (Read 272596 times)

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Online Tony Fratini

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Re: The evolution of CE 142 - what the flap?
« Reply #2835 on: March 19, 2017, 12:40:28 AM »
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As I recall Weitzman got the scope right, not bad at a glance...

Did any Law Enforcement Officer who was at the NW corner see CE 142 with either Day or Studebaker when Fritz called them over to photograph CE 139?




Offline Billy Carr

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Re: The evolution of CE 142 - what the flap?
« Reply #2836 on: March 19, 2017, 02:03:29 AM »
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As I recall Weitzman got the scope right, not bad at a glance...

Tom, that's demonstrably false.

Mr. Weitzman. I believe I said it was 2.5 scope on it and I believe I said it was a Weaver but it wasn’t; it turned out to be anything but a Weaver, but that was at a glance.

1963: Seymour Weitzman's guesses were way, way off and embarrassing.
2017: Tom Sorensan's guesses were way, way off and embarrassing.




Offline Gary Craig

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Re: The evolution of CE 142 - what the flap?
« Reply #2837 on: March 19, 2017, 02:27:06 AM »
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Brennan

Mr. BELIN. Do you remember what kind of clothes he was wearing?
Mr. BRENNAN. Light colored clothes, more of a khaki color.

Mr. BRENNAN. No, other than light, and a khaki color--maybe in khaki. I mean other than light color--not a real white shirt, in other words. If it was a white shirt, it was on the dingy side.
Mr. BELIN. I am handing you what the court reporter has marked as Commission Exhibit 150.
Does this look like it might or might not be the shirt, or can you make at this time any positive identification of any kind?
Mr. BRENNAN. I would have expected it to be a little lighter--a shade or so lighter.
Mr. BELIN. Than Exhibit 150?
Mr. BRENNAN. That is the best of my recollection.
Mr. BELIN. All right.
Could you see the man's trousers at all?
Do you remember any color?
Mr. BRENNAN. I remembered them at that time as being similar to the same color of the shirt or a little lighter. And that was another thing that I called their attention to at the lineup.
Mr. BELIN. What do you mean by that?
Mr. BRENNAN. That he was not dressed in the same clothes that I saw the man in the window.
Mr. BELIN. You mean with reference to the trousers or the shirt?
Mr. BRENNAN. Well, not particularly either. In other words, he just didn't have the same clothes on.

Reid

Mr. BELIN. Do you remember what clothes he had on when you saw him?
Mrs. REID. What he was wearing, he had on a white T-shirt and some kind of wash trousers. What color I couldn't tell you.
Mr. BELIN. I am going to hand you what has been marked Commission Exhibit, first 157 and then 158, and I will ask you if either or both look like they might have been the trousers that you saw him wear or can you tell?
Mrs. REID. I just couldn't be positive about that. I would rather not say, because I just cannot.
Mr. BELIN. Do you remember whether he had any shirt or jacket on over his T-shirt?
Mrs. REID. He did not. He did not have any jacket on.
Mr. BELIN. Have you ever seen anyone working at the book depository wearing any kind of a shirt or jacket similar to Commission Exhibit 150 or do you know?
Mrs. REID. No; I do not. I have never, so far as I know ever seen that shirt. I have been asked about that shirt before, I have seen it once before but not since all this happened

Was Lee carrying a spare wardrobe with him at the TSBD?

Who did Baker encounter on the stairway between the 3rd & 4th floors?
Carolyn Walther saw someone similarly clad standing next to a gunman in a TSBD window.

JFK assassination witness Carolyn Walther describes seeing 2 different gunmen
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Online Tony Fratini

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Re: The evolution of CE 142 - what the flap?
« Reply #2838 on: March 19, 2017, 02:47:13 AM »
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Who did Baker encounter on the stairway between the 3rd & 4th floors?
Carolyn Walther saw someone similarly clad standing next to a gunman in a TSBD window.

JFK assassination witness Carolyn Walther describes seeing 2 different gunmen
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not Lee Harvey Oswald

Mr. BALL. At that time didn't you know that one of your officers, Baker, had seen Oswald on the second floor?
Mr. FRITZ. They told me about that down at the bookstore; I believe Mr. Truly or someone told me about it, told me they had met him--I think he told me, person who told me about, I believe told me that they met him on the stairway, but our investigation shows that he actually saw him in a lunchroom, a little lunchroom where they were eating, and he held his gun on this man and Mr. Truly told him that he worked there, and the officer let him go.

"our investigation"?



Offline Gary Craig

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Re: The evolution of CE 142 - what the flap?
« Reply #2839 on: March 19, 2017, 03:11:58 AM »
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not Lee Harvey Oswald

Mr. BALL. At that time didn't you know that one of your officers, Baker, had seen Oswald on the second floor?
Mr. FRITZ. They told me about that down at the bookstore; I believe Mr. Truly or someone told me about it, told me they had met him--I think he told me, person who told me about, I believe told me that they met him on the stairway, but our investigation shows that he actually saw him in a lunchroom, a little lunchroom where they were eating, and he held his gun on this man and Mr. Truly told him that he worked there, and the officer let him go.

"our investigation"?


"our investigation"?

I wonder when that investigation took place?

As late as 12/23/63 Fritz was writing a report repeating Baker's original 3rd or 4th floor encounter.


Online Tony Fratini

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Re: The evolution of CE 142 - what the flap?
« Reply #2840 on: March 19, 2017, 03:50:37 AM »
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"our investigation"?

I wonder when that investigation took place?

As late as 12/23/63 Fritz was writing a report repeating Baker's original 3rd or 4th floor encounter.



Well, it was Marvin Johnson (report written on 26/11/1963) who took Baker's affidavit and you can clearly see the "encounter" took place on the 4th floor.

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Wasnt Lee in a lunchroom on the second floor post shots?

If Mr Truly was ahead of Baker, how could Baker encounter Lee before Mr Truly does?

The Fourth floor encounter makes no sense because there were at least 6 - 8 women on that floor and no one mentioned this encounter nor seeing Lee on the Fourth floor.
« Last Edit: March 19, 2017, 03:56:05 AM
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Online Tony Fratini

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Re: The evolution of CE 142 - what the flap?
« Reply #2841 on: March 19, 2017, 05:22:43 AM »
Report by Sims - no mention of CE 142.

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He saw the hulls in the SN then went to where CE 139 was found.

He then went to get Day who was at the SN processing the hulls.

Compare that to his WC testimony

Mr. SIMS. Yes, sir; when the wrapper was found Captain Fritz stationed Montgomery to observe the scene there where the hulls were found.
Mr. BALL. To stay there?
Mr. SIMS. Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. That was Marvin Johnson and L. D. Montgomery who stayed by the hulls?
Mr. SIMS. Yes, sir; they did. I was going back and forth, from the wrapper to the hulls.

According to Sim's report - Fritz stationed Montgomery and Johnson to guard the SN when Fritz was called over to where the rifle was found.

Fritz, Boyd and Sims went to where the rifle was found

Sims went back and forth from the RIFLE to the HULLS (where he got Day to come and process the rifle)

CE 142 was not "loose paper" or a "wrapper".