Was the Stemmons Freeway sign removed?

[Mitch Todd]

           The Daniel Film confirms You are Not up-to-speed on this subject. You either forgot or were Not aware it existed. You're welcome. Both the Lead Car and the JFK Limo were hauling arse and accelerating. The WC testimonies and the Daniel Film make this clear. There is No Way that Officer Chaney managed to catch up to the passenger side of the Lead Car while it was bookin' and then carry on a conversation with the Driver/Chief Curry. This ain't Indy Jones stuff.

I didn't know it existed, but then again, it doesn't really show that much.

In the film, the neither car appears to be moving particulary fast. In fact, it's 270 feet from the triple overpass to the sign over the mouth of the exit ramp. The first frames of the Daniel film show the limo at least a length past the overpass (and the limo was 21' long), and it takes five seconds to reach the shadows of the exit sign gantry. Subtract the length of the limo from the overpass-gantry distance to account for the car's initial position, and it's velocity over that time is 250 feet in 5 seconds, or 50 feet per second. Since 60mph is 88~90 ft/s, the limo is running at (50ft/s*60m/h)/90ft/s = 33mph. The limo is just not going that fast. And it's passing the lead car at this point.

Now, you might want to argue, "the limo was accelerating, so the exit speed must have been higher than the average."  However, you ought to first consider that another 100 feet past the mouth of the exit ramp, the Northbound lane peels away from the Southbound one in a blind right turn that's tighter than you might expect. The curve for the Southbound lane is rated for 40mph, and it has a slightly larger radius than it's Northerly brother. I simply can't see Greer trying to wrestle a 8000lb Presidential motorbeast (rolling on skinny bias-ply tires with 1963 Detroit brakes) around that turn at 40mph, especially since you can't see the end of the turn when you're approaching it, and don't know exactly what's coming.

[Bill Chapman]

Some jiggles could be related to Zapruder's vertigo issue

[Jerry Organ]

     Your statement above reflects your being confused due to having jumped into the middle of the discussion.

Well, OK. I'm confused alright. You at least seem to be contenting that the rate-of-speed in the Daniel film is a constant as to how the detached motorcade made it's way from that area. Though that point seems a bit buried in some posts.

          You must be unfamiliar with the WC Testimony involving the Lead Car and Chaney. It cites Chaney pulling up on the passenger side of the Limo.
          How fast/MPH do you believe the Lead Car & the JFK Limo were traveling as they were photographed approaching the Stemmons FWY On-Ramp?  Do you believe that Officer Chaney & Chief Curry could carry on a conversation regarding the physical condition of JFK while both the Lead Car and Chaney's Loud Motorcycle were speeding/racing to Parkland Hospital?

         Both the Lead Car & the JFK Limo are accelerating rapidly as they exit the Triple Underpass and head toward boarding the Stemmons Fwy On-Ramp. There is No Way Officer Chaney and Chief Curry, (driving the Lead Car), conversed while traveling at a high rate of speed.

           The Daniel Film confirms You are Not up-to-speed on this subject. You either forgot or were Not aware it existed. You're welcome. Both the Lead Car and the JFK Limo were hauling arse and accelerating. The WC testimonies and the Daniel Film make this clear. There is No Way that Officer Chaney managed to catch up to the passenger side of the Lead Car while it was bookin' and then carry on a conversation with the Driver/Chief Curry. This ain't Indy Jones stuff.

[Mitch Todd]

Well, OK. I'm confused alright. You at least seem to be contenting that the rate-of-speed in the Daniel film is a constant as to how the detached motorcade made it's way from that point. Though that point seems a bit buried in some posts.

You're not the only one. He keeps saying the limo stopped, and the from the context of what he's saying it sounds like he thinks the limo stopped west of the overpass. So, if that's not where he said the stop occurred, then where was it supposed to have happened?

[Jerry Organ]

The Stop-and-Go Motorcade by Gary Mack (Excerpts)
     (Continuing Inquiry, April 22, 1980)

When retired Dallas Police Officer Earle V. Brown told me the motorcade
stopped on the Stemmons Freeway access ramp (see March 1980 TCI),
my first thought was verification.

I called Brown again to ask if he was absolutely certain about what he saw.

He said he'd been thinking about it for the past week and there was no doubt -
the motorcade, with the Kennedy limousine in front, came to a halt for some
30 seconds. Brown didn't remember any specifics - there may have been one
or two motorcycles, he couldn't recall anyone getting out of a car, one of the
men had what appeared to be a big automatic rifle.

When told of Officer Brown's account, Curry denied they stopped, but revised
his speed estimate to "pretty slow, maybe two to three miles an hour." Before
I could ask him to think about it more carefully, Curry unexpectedly volunteered
"You know, they didn't even know where the hospital was."

I'm convinced the motorcade made a dramatic slowdown on the Stemmons
Freeway entrance ramp and it probably stopped

South end of access ramp (labelled Stemmons)

Overall view with ramp ascent slightly left of center (entry point to ramp at lower center)

Rough map showing freeway ramp on left

[Steve M. Galbraith]

The Stop-and-Go Motorcade by Gary Mack (Excerpts)
     (Continuing Inquiry, April 22, 1980)

When retired Dallas Police Officer Earle V. Brown told me the motorcade
stopped on the Stemmons Freeway access ramp (see March 1980 TCI),
my first thought was verification.

I called Brown again to ask if he was absolutely certain about what he saw.

He said he'd been thinking about it for the past week and there was no doubt -
the motorcade, with the Kennedy limousine in front, came to a halt for some
30 seconds. Brown didn't remember any specifics - there may have been one
or two motorcycles, he couldn't recall anyone getting out of a car, one of the
men had what appeared to be a big automatic rifle.

When told of Officer Brown's account, Curry denied they stopped, but revised
his speed estimate to "pretty slow, maybe two to three miles an hour." Before
I could ask him to think about it more carefully, Curry unexpectedly volunteered
"You know, they didn't even know where the hospital was."

I'm convinced the motorcade made a dramatic slowdown on the Stemmons
Freeway entrance ramp and it probably stopped

Kellermann related this in his first day report:

"I yelled at William Greer (the driver) to "Step on it, we're hit!" and grabbed the mike from the car radio, called to SA Lawson in the police lead car that we were hit and to get us to a hospital.

With SA Lawson riding in the police car they quickly formed the accompanying escort for the motorcade around our limousines and sped us through the streets to the emergency entrance of Parkland Memorial Hospital."

Greer doesn't mention slowing down or any escort. But it there was one then the cars had to slow down somewhat in order to lineup any escort. If the limo raced ahead - but then some sort of escort was formed around it - it had to slow down, wouldn't it?

And Greer didn't know where the hospital was. He would need to be led to it.

[Jerry Organ]

From a 3-D model found online. Labels added.

McIntire couldn't have just swung around and took pictures of the cars on the access ramp. His view to that area was largely blocked by the Freeway Overpass. According to Trask, McIntire did move over to the ramp and took a third picture but it was some time after the limousine had departed.

This image from a Google search:



I believe the arrows may point to the other Depository worksite, where Frazier parked his car.

[Mitch Todd]

The Stop-and-Go Motorcade by Gary Mack (Excerpts)
     (Continuing Inquiry, April 22, 1980)

When retired Dallas Police Officer Earle V. Brown told me the motorcade
stopped on the Stemmons Freeway access ramp (see March 1980 TCI),
my first thought was verification.

I called Brown again to ask if he was absolutely certain about what he saw.

He said he'd been thinking about it for the past week and there was no doubt -
the motorcade, with the Kennedy limousine in front, came to a halt for some
30 seconds. Brown didn't remember any specifics - there may have been one
or two motorcycles, he couldn't recall anyone getting out of a car, one of the
men had what appeared to be a big automatic rifle.

When told of Officer Brown's account, Curry denied they stopped, but revised
his speed estimate to "pretty slow, maybe two to three miles an hour." Before
I could ask him to think about it more carefully, Curry unexpectedly volunteered
"You know, they didn't even know where the hospital was."

I'm convinced the motorcade made a dramatic slowdown on the Stemmons
Freeway entrance ramp and it probably stopped

South end of access ramp (labelled Stemmons)

Overall view with ramp ascent slightly left of center (entry point to ramp at lower center)

Rough map showing freeway ramp on left

You're Greer and Kellerman. You've just been shot at, but you don't know from where or by whom. You know that someone in the car has been critically wounded. Would you stop? I can see them slowing down, especially in order to navigate the turn on the on-ramp, but I can't see them stopping. It's worth remembering that Brown
also told the WC that he thought the limo stopped on Elm.