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Author Topic: Statements That Sink The WC's Conclusions -- #321  (Read 16 times)

Offline Rob Caprio

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Statements That Sink The WC's Conclusions -- #321
« on: August 11, 2018, 03:10:04 AM »
📥 "Whether you agree with him or not, researchers such as Rob Caprio for example, took the sensible initiative and saved his own research, and he is now reposting them back on the Forum.
All other members are free to do the same.” –Duncan MacRae

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Disclaimer: I will no longer respond to any posts that are off topic and/or meant to derail the issue of the opening post. This should not be taken as me running, but instead seen as me keeping the topic on track.

I have no issue with any WC defender, therefore, I am happy to discuss the case in a manner that uses the actual evidence with them. IF the WC was correct in their final conclusion as they claim then this should be no problem for them.

I will not participate in any personal discussions with them as these are meant to distract and discredit instead of focusing on the JFK assassination. I come here to discuss and learn about the JFK assassination and nothing more.

No more games with the LNers. The LNers have to to discuss the WC's, HSCA's and ARRB's evidence or move along.

One would think IF the assassination occurred as the WC said then the LNers would welcome the opportunity to discuss and refute the posts in this series, but they seem more determined to have the posts stopped. I think that this shows that the WC's version of events is not correct.

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The Warren Commission (WC) said Lee Harvey Oswald (LHO) went down to the second floor lunchroom within 90 seconds of firing the last shot from the southeastern sixth floor window of the Texas School Book Depository (TSBD). For this to be accurate and true they had to disqualify testimony given by Victoria Adams as she placed herself on the stairs at the same time LHO would have been going down them.

We have looked at this issue before, but this post will look at it from yet another angle.


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The WC wrote this about the issue in their Report (WCR).

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Victoria Adams, who worked on the fourth floor of the Depository Building, claimed that within 1 minute following the shots she ran from a window on the south side of the fourth floor, down the rear stairs to the first floor, where she encountered two Depository employees—William Shelley and Billy Lovelady. IF her estimate of time is correct, she reached the bottom of the stairs before Truly and Baker started up, and she must have run down the stairs ahead of Oswald and would have probably seen or heard him. Actually she noticed no one on the back stairs. (WCR, p. 154)

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This presented a big problem for the WC as how could they get LHO down from the sixth floor to the second floor without him using the back stairs? Instead of saying LHO could not have been on the stairs as at that time they instead claimed Victoria Adams was “mistaken” about the time she had gone down the stairs. They posited, for her of course, that she did NOT come down the steps within a minute as she said she did, but later on after LHO, Baker and Truly had used the stairs. Here is what Ms. Adams told the WC in regards to the time she entered the stairwell.

Mr. BELIN - How long do you think it was between the time the shots were fired and the time you left the window to start toward the stairway?

Miss ADAMS - Between 15 and 30 seconds, estimated, approximately.

Mr. BELIN - How long do you think it took you to get from the window to the bottom of the stairs on the first floor?

Miss ADAMS - I would say no longer than a minute at the most.

For LHO to get to the second floor lunchroom to be seen by Baker and Truly he had to enter the stairwell at the same time, and yet, Ms. Adams said she saw no one on the stairs.

Mr. BELIN - As I understand your testimony previously, you saw neither Roy Truly nor any motorcycle police officer at any time?

Miss ADAMS - That's correct.

Mr. BELIN - You heard no one else running down the stairs?

Miss ADAMS - Correct.

So, since this was devastating to the claim of the WC, they had to alter her story and insisted she was wrong about the time. They used the testimony of two people to discredit her claim—William Shelley and Billy Lovelady. Both men would say they went to the railroad yard after he shots in their testimony.

Mr. BALL - What seemed to be the direction or source of the sound?

Mr. SHELLEY - Sounded like it came from the west.

Mr. BALL - It sounded like it came from the west?

Mr. SHELLEY - Yes.

Mr. BALL - Then what happened?

Mr. SHELLEY - Gloria Calvary from South-Western Publishing Co. ran back up there crying and said "The President has been shot" and Billy Lovelady and myself took off across the street to that little, old island and we stopped there for a minute.

Mr. BALL - You went out there and then what did you do?

Mr. SHELLEY - Well, officers started running down to the railroad yards and Billy and I walked down that way.

Mr. BALL - What did you and Billy Lovelady do?

Mr. SHELLEY - We walked on down to the first railroad track there on the dead-end street and stood there and watched them searching cars down there in the parking lots for a little while and then we came in through our parking lot at the west end.

And:

Mr. BALL - When Gloria came up and said the President had been shot, Gloria Calvary, what did you do?

Mr. LOVELADY - Well, I asked who told her. She said he had been shot so we asked her was she for certain or just had she seen the shot hit him…so the crowd had started towards the railroad tracks back, you know, behind our building there and we run towards that little, old island and kind of down there in that little street. We went as far as the first tracks and everybody was hollering and crying and policemen started running out that way and we said we better get back into the building, so we went back into the west entrance on the back dock had that low ramp and went into the back dock back inside the building.

Mr. BALL - Then you came back. How long did you stay around the railroad tracks?

Mr. LOVELADY - Oh, just a minute, maybe minute and a half.

Mr. BALL - After you ran to the railroad tracks you came back and went in the back door of the building?

Mr. LOVELADY - Right.

So according to the testimony of Shelley and Lovelady they went to the railroad tracks after the shots had stopped and stayed for about a minute and a half before heading back to the TSBD and entering the building from the back door. And neither man could remember seeing Ms. Adams. She had said she saw them when she reached the first floor following her trip down the rear stairs.

Mr. BELIN - By what?

Miss ADAMS - …And after the third shot, following that, the third shot, I went to the back of the building down the back stairs, and encountered Bill Shelley and Bill Lovelady on the first floor on the way out to the Houston Street dock.

But Shelley did not remember seeing her.

Mr. BALL - Did you see Vickie Adams after you came into the building and did you see her on the first floor?

Mr. SHELLEY - I sure don't remember.

Mr. BALL - You don't.

Mr. SHELLEY - No.

Lovelady did not discount it outright like Shelley, but he too did not say he saw her on the first floor.

Mr. BALL - Who did you see in the first floor?

Mr. LOVELADY - I saw a girl but I wouldn't swear to it it's Vickie.

Mr. BALL - Vickie Adams?

Mr. LOVELADY - I believe so.

Mr. BALL - Would you say it was Vickie you saw?

Mr. LOVELADY - I couldn't swear.

Why did Lovelady offer up Ms. Adams' name when he was NOT asked about her yet? Why did he say, "I saw a girl but I wouldn't swear to it it's Vickie" when NO one had mentioned her yet? Just wondering.

It seems Ms. Adams was wrong again since neither William Shelley or Billy Lovelady remembered her, right? Well not so fast. Both men signed affidavits that kind of counter their WC testimony in terms of going to the railroad yard after the shots for a minute and a half. Here is what Lovelady’s affidavit said regarding this issue.


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After it [the shooting] was over we went back into the building and I took some police officers up to search the building. (Commission Exhibit (CE) 2003, p. 36)

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There is NO mention of going to the railroad yard as he testified to. Why not? Here is what Shelley said in his affadavit.

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I heard what sounded like three shots. . . . I ran across the street to the corner of the park and ran into a girl crying and she said the President had been shot. . . . I went back to the building and went inside and called my wife and told her what happened. I was on the first floor and I stayed at the elevator. . . (CE 2003, p. 59)

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Again, we see nothing about them heading to the railroad yard after the shots had stopped. Why not? It would seem as though their comments made closer to the event match what Ms. Adams had said in her statement. Another odd thing is while Baker was running his timing recreations twice, an LHO fill in ran twice and Mrs. Reid ran hers at least three times no one saw fit to have Ms. Adams recreate her movements even once! Why not?

Why did the WC ignore these earlier affidavits by Shelley and Lovelady when they were dealing with this issue. Why did they only take their testimony, which was at odds with their earlier statements, at face value? Since the affidavits were taken very close to the event it is likely they are more accurate than testimony given in April of 1964, thus, their story of heading to the railroad yard is probably inaccurate.

What is really very ironic is the WC saw fit to take inaccurate testimony, in all likelihood, that put them going to the railroad yard indicating that they thought the shots originated there to keep the story of LHO going down the steps alive in the time said. This is very ironic and shows how the WC worked to make LHO look guilty. This also brings into consideration the issue of collusion between William Shelley, Billy Lovelady and the WC since their testimony does NOT match their earlier legal statements.

Why did LHO not leave by the back door after Truly and Baker left him in the second-floor lunchroom? Why did he choose the much busier front door on Elm Street to depart by (if we go by the official account) where the chance of being seen is much greater? Does this make any sense to you? Instead we are to believe he got a Coke after they left him and then walked into Mrs. Reid’s office and looked calm and cool instead of worried about leaving the building. According to Mrs. Reid he showed no signs of urgency.

Why did the WC not inquire among the members of the Dallas Police Department (DPD) who were guarding the front door about LHO being allowed to leave the TSBD as they said he did? Especially when one of them testified to this.


Mr. LIEBELER - How long do you think it was from the time the last shot was fired until the time you were at the front door keeping people from going in and out?

Mr. BARNETT - It was around 2 1/2 minutes. Maybe between 2 1/2 or 3 minutes.

Mr. LIEBELER - From the time the last shot was fired until the time you were standing at that front door?

Mr. BARNETT - Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER - Did you let anybody out of the building after you got there?

Mr. BARNETT - No, sir; until they were authorized.

Police Officer Welcome Eugene Barnett said he arrived at the front door of the TSBD around 2 ½ minutes to 3 minutes AFTER THE LAST SHOT was fired and the WC said LHO left at 12:33 p.m., thus, Barnett most likely would have seen LHO leaving and PREVENTED him from doing so as he said he did NOT allow anyone who was not authorized to leave. The WC failed to check out what LHO told them about meeting a man who thought was a Secret Service (SS) Agent book he showed him a book of identification asking him where the closet telephone was.

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He [LHO] asked me [Thomas J. Kelley] whether I was an FBI Agent, and I said that I was not, that I was a member of the Secret Service. He said when he was standing in front of the Textbook Building and about to leave it, a young crew-cut man rushed up to him and said he was from the Secret Service, showed a book of identification, and asked him where the phone was. Oswald said he pointed toward the pay phone in the building and that he saw the man actually go to the phone before he left. – (WCR; p.629)

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Why was this NOT checked out to see who could have presented this identification to LHO? Oh, that’s right, that was covered with the all-encompassing “LHO lied about everything” mantra. Don’t you think these kinds of things should have been checked out IF you were looking for the truth and an accurate final conclusion? According to Captain Will Fritz we have to assume LHO was never even asked what door he left by and whether he was stopped and checked before he could leave. Why do we have to assume this? Because Fritz never mentioned if LHO was even asked these basic questions.

Add in the fact he was never even asked if he had any accomplices and we see the DPD were not really about finding the truth of what happened. Ditto the FBI and SS who were present during many of the interrogation sessions.

Clearly, Ms. Adams’ story has NOT been shown to be inaccurate at all and instead the testimony put forth by the WC to try and make it look so is the one that has to be called into question. The evidence found in the twenty-six volumes show that it is highly unlikely for LHO to have gone down stairs that Ms. Adams was on and NOT be seen by her (or Sandra Styles).

Thus, the WC’s conclusion is again sunk.
« Last Edit: August 11, 2018, 03:17:31 AM by Rob Caprio »

JFK Assassination Forum

Statements That Sink The WC's Conclusions -- #321
« on: August 11, 2018, 03:10:04 AM »