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Author Topic: What Was Oswald Doing Friday Morning?  (Read 1791 times)

Offline James Hess

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What Was Oswald Doing Friday Morning?
« on: August 09, 2018, 11:48:46 AM »
Recently I came across something that I would like to see some discussion of here:
Often LNS like myself mention Our Boys' clipboard, appropriated from a co-worker  FRANKIE KAISER,  was discovered several days later with unfilled orders still on it.
But Frazier told a friend of mine the order sheets were turned in as the orders were filled...so, common sense tells us the unfilled order sheets don't really mean much.
In looking through various testimonies  it appears there was no way to track which filled order was  turned in by any particular TSBD employee afterward, which seems odd for any business concentrating on quality control .
Frazier said in his testimony he saw LHO filling orders that morning so (rightly) scoffs at the idea the unfilled order sheets found on the clipboard mean anything.

The clipboard was found on the 6th floor, which seems to indicate he could have filled some orders but how was it left on that floor?
Did he take it back up to the 6th after filling other orders and just leave it there before going down for lunch?
Why would he have done that?
Should we accept that supervisors had not kept track of who had filled certain orders?

What Was Oswald Doing Friday Morning?




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What Was Oswald Doing Friday Morning?
« on: August 09, 2018, 11:48:46 AM »


Offline John Mytton

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Re: What Was Oswald Doing Friday Morning?
« Reply #1 on: August 09, 2018, 12:10:32 PM »
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What Was Oswald Doing Friday Morning?


I reckon that out of the 4 hours of work time Oswald didn't need much time for preparation so he easily could have appeared to be working and at the same time be working on some minor assassination details.

Btw I've also wondered how they kept track of the workers efficiency because on the Friday they didn't seem to know exactly what Oswald did that morning?

JohnM

Offline James Hess

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Re: What Was Oswald Doing Friday Morning?
« Reply #2 on: August 09, 2018, 12:26:07 PM »
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I reckon that out of the 4 hours of work time Oswald didn't need much time for preparation so he easily could have appeared to be working and at the same time be working on some minor assassination details.

Btw I've also wondered how they kept track of the workers efficiency because on the Friday they didn't seem to know exactly what Oswald did that morning?

JohnM
Thanks John M
I am very curious why/how the clipboard was left on the 6th floor.
With only unfilled order sheets on it.
Did he take it back up to the 6th for some unfathomable reason and just leave it there before going down to lunch?
The unfilled orders were all 3 for Scott-Foresman books  which were stored on the 1st and 6th floor.
He turned filled orders in on the 1st floor.
So. how did it (the clipboard) get up onto the 6th ?
He took it up there from the 1st and then went down to lunch?
It's all very strange.

« Last Edit: August 09, 2018, 12:33:26 PM by James Hess »

Offline John Mytton

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Re: What Was Oswald Doing Friday Morning?
« Reply #3 on: August 09, 2018, 12:40:21 PM »
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Thanks John M
I am very curious why/how the clipboard was left on the 6th floor.
With only unfilled order sheets on it.
Did he take it back up to the 6th for some unfathomable reason and just leave it there before going down to lunch?
The unfilled orders were all 3 for Scott-Foresman books  which were stored on the 1st and 6th floor.
He turned filled orders in on the 1st floor.
So. how did it (the clipboard) get up onto the 6th ?
He took it up there from the 1st and then went down to lunch?
It's all very strange.

I think he just hung onto the clipboard so he would appear to have a legitimate reason to be hanging around the 6th floor.

Mr. GIVENS. He was between the stock and the window, coming towards the elevators.
Mr. BELIN. Coming towards the elevators?
Mr. GIVENS. Yes, sir.
Mr. BELIN. Did you see all of his body or not?
Mr. GIVENS. Yes, sir; he had his clipboard in his hand.
Mr. BELIN. He had his clipboard in his hand?
Mr. GIVENS. Yes, sir.


JohnM

Offline James Hess

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Re: What Was Oswald Doing Friday Morning?
« Reply #4 on: August 09, 2018, 12:44:02 PM »
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I think he just hung onto the clipboard so he would appear to have a legitimate reason to be hanging around the 6th floor.

Mr. GIVENS. He was between the stock and the window, coming towards the elevators.
Mr. BELIN. Coming towards the elevators?
Mr. GIVENS. Yes, sir.
Mr. BELIN. Did you see all of his body or not?
Mr. GIVENS. Yes, sir; he had his clipboard in his hand.
Mr. BELIN. He had his clipboard in his hand?
Mr. GIVENS. Yes, sir.


JohnM
...but no Scott/Foresman books or boxes of books?
What could he have been doing?
« Last Edit: August 09, 2018, 12:46:10 PM by James Hess »

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Re: What Was Oswald Doing Friday Morning?
« Reply #4 on: August 09, 2018, 12:44:02 PM »


Online John Iacoletti

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Re: What Was Oswald Doing Friday Morning?
« Reply #5 on: August 09, 2018, 05:54:31 PM »
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The clipboard was found on the 6th floor, which seems to indicate he could have filled some orders but how was it left on that floor?
Did he take it back up to the 6th after filling other orders and just leave it there before going down for lunch?
Why would he have done that?
Should we accept that supervisors had not kept track of who had filled certain orders?

Well, there's really no way to know how it got there or when.  It was found on December 2, supposedly out in the open, was missed or not noted or photographed by the police during their "extensive search" and discovery of the rifle near where the clipboard was out in the open, and presumably also not noticed by any employee in the intervening 10 days.  There was nothing to tie that particular clipboard to Oswald, other than Kaiser thinking that Oswald had appropriated it from him.  And nothing to indicate that it was the same clipboard that Givens saw.  If it was ever dusted for prints, that was never mentioned by anyone in the record.  As a piece of evidence, it's not very meaningful.

Online Tom Sorensen

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Re: What Was Oswald Doing Friday Morning?
« Reply #6 on: August 09, 2018, 09:35:58 PM »
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I think he just hung onto the clipboard so he would appear to have a legitimate reason to be hanging around the 6th floor.

Mr. GIVENS. He was between the stock and the window, coming towards the elevators.
Mr. BELIN. Coming towards the elevators?
Mr. GIVENS. Yes, sir.
Mr. BELIN. Did you see all of his body or not?
Mr. GIVENS. Yes, sir; he had his clipboard in his hand.
Mr. BELIN. He had his clipboard in his hand?
Mr. GIVENS. Yes, sir.


JohnM

GIVENS -- LOL.

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Online Tom Sorensen

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Re: What Was Oswald Doing Friday Morning?
« Reply #7 on: August 09, 2018, 09:44:02 PM »
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Thanks John M
I am very curious why/how the clipboard was left on the 6th floor.
With only unfilled order sheets on it.
Did he take it back up to the 6th for some unfathomable reason and just leave it there before going down to lunch?
The unfilled orders were all 3 for Scott-Foresman books  which were stored on the 1st and 6th floor.
He turned filled orders in on the 1st floor.
So. how did it (the clipboard) get up onto the 6th ?
He took it up there from the 1st and then went down to lunch?
It's all very strange.

Not really.

The floor laying crew moved boxes back and forth as they progressed on the sixth floor.

Consequently, Oswald couldn't find what he was looking for and broke for lunch.

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Re: What Was Oswald Doing Friday Morning?
« Reply #7 on: August 09, 2018, 09:44:02 PM »


Online Ross Lidell

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Re: What Was Oswald Doing Friday Morning?
« Reply #8 on: August 09, 2018, 10:13:36 PM »
On Friday morning: Lee Oswald was contemplating his plan to assassinate President John F. Kennedy on Friday afternoon. What else?

Offline Rob Caprio

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Re: What Was Oswald Doing Friday Morning?
« Reply #9 on: August 09, 2018, 10:29:07 PM »
This is from my "Statements That Sink The WC's Conclusions" series and shows that the answer to the OP post's question is -- LHO was working.

****************************************

The Warren Commission (WC) tried to avoid the use of the word "premeditated" at most times, but let's face it, that is what they were claiming.  For someone to commit a premeditated act you have to show they were PREPARING to do so, but for anyone that knows this case you know the WC FAILED to do this. 

They failed to show definitively how and when Lee Harvey Oswald (LHO) learned that President John F.  Kennedy (JFK) was coming right near his place of work.  All we get is "he read about it in the newspaper", but we don't see evidence that supports this in the least.  In fact, they have evidence in the twenty-six volumes (testimony given by a co-worker) showing LHO had NO idea what all the hoopla was about that morning. He was told then that the president was coming.  True, LHO could have been faking it, but why would he do that?  What did that gain him?

The WC utterly FAILED to show LHO was preparing for this "hit" in anyway.  The mere fact he was in the Texas School Book Depository (TSBD) to begin with on that day draws a suspicious eye to a CONSPIRACY instead of a well thought out plan by LHO. LHO NEVER sought a job at the TSBD on his own, it was instead gotten for him by the help of Ruth Paine and Roy Truly.  In fact, he had a BETTER PAYING opportunity that was a PERMANENT position withheld from him by Ruth Paine.  Why would she do that?  We can get to this topic and her later on.

I can show via testimony in the twenty-six volumes that LHO was NOT planning to shoot JFK as the WC claimed as LHO was spending too much time ACTUALLY WORKING that day instead of preparing to shoot anyone! This is but one way to show the idea of him planning to shoot JFK is full of baloney!  What would be assassin would waste their morning working hard on filling book orders INSTEAD OF PREPARING for the job of shooting the POTUS at lunchtime? This was a HUGE job to take on, so I doubt they would have spent all their time up to 11:50 a.m. working on this. What do you think?

Now, let's begin where I left off in the last post in this series -- with Jack Dougherty.


****************************************

Mr. BALL - Did you see him again that morning?

Mr. DOUGHERTY - Yes; just one more time.

Mr. BALL - Where was that?

Mr. DOUGHERTY - That was on the sixth floor.

Mr. BALL - On the sixth floor?

Mr. DOUGHERTY - Yes.

Mr. BALL - About what time of day?

Mr. DOUGHERTY - It was about 11 o'clock-that was the last time I saw him.

Mr. BALL - What was he doing up there?

Mr. DOUGHERTY - Well, as far as I could tell, he was getting some stock---as far as I could tell.

Mr. BALL - What were you doing there?

Mr. DOUGHERTY - I was getting some stock also.

So we are to believe with only an hour and twenty five minutes (and of course LHO could NOT know for sure what time JFK would come by for sure IF he was truly working alone) left before the arrival of JFK into Dealey Plaza (DP) he was still worried about FILLING BOOK ORDERS?  What? What about making the SN, putting the rifle together, sighting it, loading it, etc...?  When did he plan on  doing this?

This summation is interesting to me as it has nothing to do with this issue, but why don't we see this question being asked of the WC "star witnesses"?


Mr. BALL - When you talked to the FBI men, I've got a statement here dated the 19th of December 1963, a statement from Special Agent William O. Johnson, and he reports that you told him that you saw Lee Harvey Oswald at approximately 8 a.m. when he, Oswald, arrived.

Mr. DOUGHERTY - That's right.

Mr. BALL - That you saw Oswald again at approximately 11 a.m. on the sixth floor?.

Mr. DOUGHERTY - That's right.

Mr. BALL - But you didn't see him again after that, is that your testimony?

Mr. DOUGHERTY - Yes.

Mr. BALL - Is that the truth?

Mr. DOUGHERTY - That's right.

Why is Mr. Ball insinuating that Jack Dougherty may be NOT telling the truth?  When did you see this kind of question asked of Howard Brennan, Helen Markham, Mary Blesoe, et. al.?  Never from what I can remember.  This is a trick used to smear the witness by insinuating that he would resort to lying if needed.  Why would Dougherty be lying about this stuff?

Let's look at some other workers who saw LHO that morning.


Mr. BALL. Did you remember seeing him at any time that morning?

Mr. NORMAN. Yes; around about 10 or 10:15, somewhere in the neighborhood of that.

Mr. BALL. Where did you see him?

Mr. NORMAN. Over in the bins by the windows, I mean looking out, you know, at Elm Street, towards Elm Street.

Mr. BALL. On what floor?

Mr. NORMAN. The first.

Mr. BALL. Looking out on Elm through windows, is that right?

Mr. NORMAN. Yes, sir. I was looking out the window. He happened to come by to fill orders.

Of course the WC loved this one as it showed LHO was "looking out at Elm St." prior to the "big event"! LOL!  Of course the part about him coming by to fill orders will be brushed aside.  This was either 10:00 or 10:15 a.m. and yet he is still worried about working.

Mr. BALL. Did he say anything to you?

Mr. NORMAN. No; he didn't.

Mr. BALL. Did you say anything to him?

Mr. NORMAN. No.

Mr. BALL. Did you see him at any time after that?

Mr. NORMAN. No; no more. I don't recall seeing him any more that day.

------------

Mr. BALL. After you washed up, what did you do?

Mr. NORMAN. Well, I got my lunch, I ate my lunch in the domino room.

Mr. BALL. Did you bring your lunch from home that day?

Mr. NORMAN. Yes; I believe I did.

Mr. BALL. And in what kind of a package did you bring it?

Mr. NORMAN. A brown paper sack, paper bag.

Mr. BALL. Where did you keep your lunch or leave your lunch from 8 in the morning until you got it at noon?

Mr. NORMAN. I left it in the window of the domino room.

Mr. BALL. Did you notice any other packages in that window that morning?

Mr. NORMAN. I can't say that I noticed any that morning but I know that some of the fellows did keep their lunches in there.

Mr. BALL. Did you notice anything, any unusual package in there that day?

Mr. NORMAN. No; I didn't.

This is pretty funny.  Was the WC expecting LHO to leave his 37" package with a rifle in it in the Domino lunchroom window? Oh geez, I guess I will have a 40" Carcano for lunch today.  Allegedly of course.

Now on to Jarman.


Mr. BALL - Now on November 22, what time did you get to work?

Mr. JARMAN - About 5 minutes after 8.

Mr. BALL - Was Oswald there when you got there?

Mr. JARMAN - Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL - Where did you see him the first time?

Mr. JARMAN - Well, he was on the first floor filling orders.

Was LHO a conscientious assassin? Did he figure with him missing the afternoon he would get his work done in the morning? I mean this is FIVE TO EIGHT and he is working already! Why bother if you are going to kill the POTUS later on?  We know he was NOT faking either because of this.

Mr. BALL - Did you talk to Oswald that morning?

Mr. JARMAN - I did.

Mr. BALL - When?

Mr. JARMAN - I had him to correct an order. I don't know exactly what time it was.

Mr. BALL - Oh, approximately. Nine, ten?

Mr. JARMAN - It was around, it was between eight and nine, I would say.

This means again he had to have done an order to have it be corrected.  Why bother knocking yourself out so much when you would be on the lam or in jail later on in the day?  Here is the comment about NOT even knowing what all the commotion was about.

Mr. BALL - Did you talk to him again that morning?

Mr. JARMAN - Yes, sir. I talked to him again later on that morning.

Mr. BALL - About what time?

Mr. JARMAN - It was between 9:30 and 10 o'clock, I believe.

Mr. BALL - Where were you when you talked to him?

Mr. JARMAN - In between two rows of bins.

Mr. BALL - On what floor?

Mr. JARMAN - On the first floor.

Mr. BALL - And what was said by him and by you?

Mr. JARMAN - Well, he was standing up in the window and I went to the window also, and he asked me what were the people gathering around on the corner for, and I told him that the President was supposed to pass that morning, and he asked me did I know which way he was coming, and I told him, yes; he probably come down Main and turn on Houston and then back again on Elm. Then he said, "Oh, I see," and that was all.

Mr. BALL - Did you talk to him again?

Mr. JARMAN - No, sir.

LNers can believe this was contrived, but why bother if you are him? IF you were planning to shoot the president wouldn't this be dangerous IF you were caught?  I mean Jarman can now testify that he told you the route the president's car would be traveling.  I see NO reason for LHO to ask this other than he really did NOT know what all the commotion was about.

Here is more testimony.



Mr. BELIN. Now, where did you see him at 8:30 o'clock first?

Mr. GIVENS. I came back down to use the rest room.

Mr. BELIN. Where was he?

Mr. GIVENS. He was over there in the bin filling orders.

Mr. BELIN. He was over in the bin filling orders?

Mr. GIVENS. Yes, sir; they had some bins there.

Here is another worker saying they saw LHO working that morning.  Look at this interesting comment.

Mr. BELIN. Do you remember what he was wearing?

Mr. GIVENS. Well, I believe it was kind of a greenish looking shirt and pants was about the same color as his shirt, practically the same thing he wore all the time he worked there. He never changed clothes the whole time he worked there, and he would wear a grey looking jacket.

Grey looking jacket? I thought the WC said a BLUE jacket was found there 10 days later?  How could they make that kind of mistake?

Let's look at what his supervisor said about him that morning.


Mr. BALL - Did you know Lee Oswald?

Mr. SHELLEY - He worked for me.

Mr. BALL - What kind of work did he do for you?

Mr. SHELLEY - He did good work.

Mr. BALL - What?

Mr. SHELLEY - He did good work.

----------------

Mr. BALL - On the 22d of November 1963, did you see him come to work that morning?

Mr. SHELLEY - No, he was at work when I got there already filling orders.

Did LHO eat his Wheaties that day or what?  Why was he so gung-ho IF he was planning on killing JFK that day.  Didn't he have a lot to do?

Finally, we come to Roy Truly.  He is the man that hired him.


Mr. BELIN. Did you see Lee Harvey Oswald at any time during that day?

Mr. TRULY. I am almost certain that I saw him early that morning as I came in, and spoke to him.

Mr. BELIN. And where was he when you saw him?

Mr. TRULY. I think he was around the front part of the Scott, Foresman bins.

Mr. BELIN. On what floor?

Mr. TRULY. On the first floor.

Mr. BELIN. Was he filling orders?

Mr. TRULY. Apparently; yes, sir. I don't recall too close. But I am almost certain that I talked to him that morning.

We don't need to rely on Truly's recollection as we have seen from other workers' testimonies that the bins is were the order filling work was done. Why would a man who planned on shooting the POTUS that day at lunch time worry about working so much?  I think this shows he was NOT planning on shooting JFK that day, otherwise, he would have been planning this instead filling book orders.

Finally, since he had access to ALL floors in his role as an order filler, why would he pick the BUSIEST floor to shoot from? Wouldn't he pick a nice quiet floor like the seventh that had NO floor layers to prohibit him from getting ready a lot earlier?  I would think so, what do you think?

We again see evidence that contradicts the WC's conclusion, thus, it is sunk again.

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Re: What Was Oswald Doing Friday Morning?
« Reply #9 on: August 09, 2018, 10:29:07 PM »