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Author Topic: Oswald put his package straight into Frazier's car, why?  (Read 8175 times)

Online Tony Fratini

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Re: Oswald put his package straight into Frazier's car, why?
« Reply #20 on: January 14, 2018, 04:30:38 AM »
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Huh? standing right next to the slats???, as the following gif shows, the camera was almost as close as Linnie was to the slats and we can see other objects on the other side of the open slat at almost the same height as the camera and we know that Linnie's pov was way above the right rear door of Frazier's car.







JohnM

The slats are all angled - just exactly what do you think she saw with a brief view from her limited POV?


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Re: Oswald put his package straight into Frazier's car, why?
« Reply #20 on: January 14, 2018, 04:30:38 AM »


Offline Zeon Wasinsky

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Re: Oswald put his package straight into Frazier's car, why?
« Reply #21 on: January 14, 2018, 06:25:23 AM »
if could just figure out what was in the paperbag that was only 2 feet long, +/- couple inches.

suggestions:

1. Lunch.. Myttons idea.. probably not  ::)
2. Disassembled MC rifle 35 inch, needing about 5 in more to fold over= 40 inch bag.
3. Communist Cuba Flag rolled up, which Oswald was going to fly out of a window, in protest, similar to Umbrella man using umbrella, and DC man his upraised arm, during shots fired.,, uh.. Oswald chikend out and didnt do it.
4. Dozen donuts in line, like they sell at Walmart, Oswald was going give  them out...nah
5. Camera with tripod, Oswald wanted take photo of presidential limo.
6. Solid wooden curtain rods to replace the cheap flimsy metal rods in Oswalds boardnig room.
7. Oswalds freshly washed socks and underwear, that he had washed and dryed thursday at Paines house..
8. Some bags of sand or salt, that conspirator had paid Oswald to bring into TSBD, and which Oswald suspected might be illegal substance, but the pay was good, and he didnt ask any questions.
9. some type of lamp fixture, base, or adjustable lamp.







« Last Edit: January 14, 2018, 06:30:06 AM by Zeon Wasinsky »

Offline John Mytton

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Re: Oswald put his package straight into Frazier's car, why?
« Reply #22 on: January 14, 2018, 06:50:13 AM »
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The slats are all angled - just exactly what do you think she saw with a brief view from her limited POV?



OMG Tony, Linnie couldn't be more clear, she saw Oswald go to the right rear door of Frazier's car and put a package in, then when Frazier gets in Frazier sees the package on the back seat. 

Mr. BALL. Did you see him go to the car?
Mrs. RANDLE. Yes.
Mr. BALL. What did he do?
Mrs. RANDLE. He opened the right back door and I just saw that he was laying the package down

Mr. BALL. He put the package in the car.
Mrs. RANDLE. Yes, sir;

Senator COOPER. I mean did you see him throw open the. door?
Mrs. RANDLE. Yes, sir.


Btw how did Linnie know that Oswald put the package on the back seat which was only later confirmed by Buell.

RANDLE stated that about 7:15 a.m., November 22, 1963, she looked out of a window of her residence and observed LEE HARVEY OSWALD walking up her driveway and saw him put a long brown package, approximately 3 feet by 6 inches, in the back seat area of WESLEY FRAZIER's 1954 black Chevrolet four door automobile.



JohnM

Online Tony Fratini

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Re: Oswald put his package straight into Frazier's car, why?
« Reply #23 on: January 14, 2018, 08:44:03 AM »
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OMG Tony, Linnie couldn't be more clear, she saw Oswald go to the right rear door of Frazier's car and put a package in, then when Frazier gets in Frazier sees the package on the back seat. 

Mr. BALL. Did you see him go to the car?
Mrs. RANDLE. Yes.
Mr. BALL. What did he do?
Mrs. RANDLE. He opened the right back door and I just saw that he was laying the package down

Mr. BALL. He put the package in the car.
Mrs. RANDLE. Yes, sir;

Senator COOPER. I mean did you see him throw open the. door?
Mrs. RANDLE. Yes, sir.


Btw how did Linnie know that Oswald put the package on the back seat which was only later confirmed by Buell.

RANDLE stated that about 7:15 a.m., November 22, 1963, she looked out of a window of her residence and observed LEE HARVEY OSWALD walking up her driveway and saw him put a long brown package, approximately 3 feet by 6 inches, in the back seat area of WESLEY FRAZIER's 1954 black Chevrolet four door automobile.



JohnM

JohnM,

I am highly suspicious of the entire bag/curtain rod story because it made no sense, apart from laying the blame squarely onto Lee. After the fact, LMR suddenly becomes "concerned" enough so that she (not her 19 yo brother who goes visiting his step-father at the hospital) goes to the Detectives at the Paines.

Mr. BALL. Did a Mrs. Randle come in the house also?
Mr. STOVALL. No. sir; she didn't. While we were loading this stuff into our car and into the sheriff's deputy's car, we were on the outside, and you know, going in and out, and she had stopped Adamcik and was talking to him and he came over and talked to me and went on back and talked to her and she said that her brother had taken Oswald to work that morning and she said that she had seen him put some kind of a package in the back seat of her brother's car. She told us it could have been a rifle is what she said. She said it was either in a brown paper box or wrapped in brown paper.

Whoops - hindsight is always 20:20 - a rifle? Yet she disclosed none of this to her brother before leaving with Lee?

Also why would BWF look over his shoulder if he was driving out onto the road straight from the drive way?

LMR knew where his brother was because he told the Detectives - this implied that BWF had indeed come home first, spoke with his sister and took off.


Mr. ADAMCIK. Oh, yes, after talking to this Mrs. Randle, we wanted to talk to Wesley Frazier, and she said that he was at Parkland visiting his sick daddy. So when we got back to the station, we checked with Parkland and couldn't find anybody by that name over there, so we checked with the clinic there in Irving, I believe it was, Irving Professional Center, and found out that he was there. The nurse checked the room, and he was there at the time, so some of the detectives called out there and had him placed in custody at that time so we could get an affidavit from him or question him.

The Detectives went to the Randles house with BWF and confiscated his rifle and ammunition. BWF was placed under arrest and Fritz wanted him to sign a confession as being a co-conspirator.

Can you understand why LMR and BWF would make up the bag and curtain rod story?

And guess what? BWF was even familiar with curtain rods!

Mr. FRAZIER - Well, yes, sir; I say, because one reason I know that because I worked in a department store before and I had uncrated curtain rods when they come in, and I know if you have seen when they come straight from the factory you know how they can bundle them up and put them in there pretty compact, so he told me it was curtain rods so I didn't think any more about the package whatsoever.

The object that Lee told BWF was in the paper bag just happened to be the object that BWF had knowledge about?

X lotto time JohnM  ;D

Curtain Rods and LMR

Mr. BALL. Do you recall on a Thursday night, November 21 that you saw Lee get out of Wesley's car?
Mrs. RANDLE. That is right.
Mr. BALL. About what time of night was it?
Mrs. RANDLE. About 5:20, I believe, 5:15 or 5:25 something like that.
Mr. BALL. Where were you when you saw him?
Mrs. RANDLE. I was on my way to the grocery store.
Mr. BALL. Did you talk to Wesley about the fact that he had brought Lee home on this night?
Mrs. RANDLE. No, sir.

Mr. BALL. Did you think it was unusual that he had come home that night?
Mrs. RANDLE. Well, I knew that he had--Friday is the only time he had ever ridden with him before which was a couple of times, I don't think he rode with him over three times, I am not sure but I never did know of him arriving, you know, except on Friday.
Mr. BALL. Well, did you mention to Wesley that night or did you ask Wesley that night how Lee happened to come home on Thursday?
Mrs. RANDLE. I might have asked him.
Mr. BALL. Do you remember anything about curtain rods?
Mrs. RANDLE. Yes.
Mr. BALL. What do you remember about that?
Mrs. RANDLE. He had told Wesley--
Mr. BALL. Tell me what Wesley told you.
Mrs. RANDLE. What Wesley told me. That Lee had rode home with him to get some curtain rods from Mrs. Paine to fix up his apartment.
Mr. BALL. When did Wesley tell you that?
Mrs. RANDLE. Well, that afternoon I suppose I would have had to ask him, he wouldn't have just told me.
Mr. BALL. You mean that night?
Mrs. RANDLE. Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. After he came home?
Mrs. RANDLE. I was on my way to the store. So I probably asked him when I got back what he was doing riding home with him on Thursday afternoon.

 - a little recap -

Mr. BALL. Did you talk to Wesley about the fact that he had brought Lee home on this night?
Mrs. RANDLE. No, sir.


Mr. BALL. You think that was the time that Wesley told you-
Mrs. RANDLE. Yes, sir; after I got back home.
Mr. BALL. That Lee had come home to get some curtain rods?
Mrs. RANDLE. Yes, I am sure he told me that.

LMR can not keep her story straight - why on earth would LMR care about what her brother's driving arrangement was with Lee?

Note the sudden importance of curtain rods.

Mr. BALL - Do you remember the night before, that is after you got home that night, that your sister asked you how it happened that Oswald came home with you?
Mr. FRAZIER - Yes; I believe she did or something. We got to talking about something and said, I told her that he had rode home with me and told her he said he was going to come home and pick up some curtain rods or something. I usually don't talk too much to my sister, sometimes she is not there when I am in because she is either at the store or something like that and I am either when she comes in as I say I am playing with the little nieces and we don't talk too much about work or something like that.
Mr. BALL - This night, this evening, do you remember you did talk to her about the fact that Oswald had come home with you?
Mr. FRAZIER - 1 believe I did.
Mr. BALL - Did you tell her what he had told you?
Mr. FRAZIER - Yes, sir. I believe she said why did he come home now and I said, well, he says he was going to get some curtain rods.

- a little recap -

Mr. BALL. Did you talk to Wesley about the fact that he had brought Lee home on this night?
Mrs. RANDLE. No, sir.

Neither brother nor sister can get their stories straight.




« Last Edit: January 14, 2018, 09:37:42 AM by Tony Fratini »

Online Tom Sorensen

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Re: Oswald put his package straight into Frazier's car, why?
« Reply #24 on: January 14, 2018, 11:45:39 AM »
Neither brother nor sister can get their stories straight.

Add to this (LMR):
A stranger, who she recognized the day before as Oswald and was told came to pick up curtain rods, approaches her driveway carrying a long bag. Ring a bell? Apparently not, meaning a stranger carrying a bag gaining access to her brothers car does not prompt her to alert Buell who is right next to her at the kitchen table.

Add to this (BWF):
Buell, giving Oswald a ride home to pick up curtain rods, despite explaining this to his sister has forgotten all about it the next day running late picking up Oswald and has to ask what's in the long bag on the back seat.

Screams fabrication.

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Re: Oswald put his package straight into Frazier's car, why?
« Reply #24 on: January 14, 2018, 11:45:39 AM »


Online Tony Fratini

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Re: Oswald put his package straight into Frazier's car, why?
« Reply #25 on: January 14, 2018, 12:34:55 PM »
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Neither brother nor sister can get their stories straight.

Add to this (LMR):
A stranger, who she recognized the day before as Oswald and was told came to pick up curtain rods, approaches her driveway carrying a long bag. Ring a bell? Apparently not, meaning a stranger carrying a bag gaining access to her brothers car does not prompt her to alert Buell who is right next to her at the kitchen table.

Add to this (BWF):
Buell, giving Oswald a ride home to pick up curtain rods, despite explaining this to his sister has forgotten all about it the next day running late picking up Oswald and has to ask what's in the long bag on the back seat.

Screams fabrication.

I am afraid so. The curtain rod story is thinner than the paper bag that Lee had with him.

However, I completely understand the reason for doing it. LMR took the front foot first and seeded the "long package" in the minds of the Detectives which precipitated them finding and arresting BWF.

BWF admitted that he had gone home after he was dismissed from work.

Mr. FRAZIER - No, sir; I don't believe they did, because they, you know, like one man showed us, we had to give proper identification and after we passed him he told us to walk on then to the next man, and we, you know, put down proper information where he could be found if they wanted to see you and talk to you any more, and then we went on up to a little bit more to the front entrance more toward Mr. Shelley's office there with another man and stood there for a little while and told us all that was there could go ahead and go home.
Mr. BALL - Then you went on home?
Mr. FRAZIER - Right.
Representative FORD - Did all this occur after you had finished your lunch?
Mr. FRAZIER - Yes, sir; it did.

Representative FORD - Did it ever occur to you at any time following the shooting there was something connecting the shooting with Lee Oswald and the package?

Have a read of his answer:

Mr. FRAZIER - Well, I say not particularly not at that time, I didn't think anything about it because, to be frank with you, some were over here, one or two would be over here talking and just strung out here, on the first floor and I didn't think anything about it. I see some of the guys, they go out for lunch and they come back 12:45 so I didn't know whether he had went out to lunch or not. Some of them do every week.

So BWF was completely clueless and didn't answer the question - yet his sister who had just a brief view of LHO and what he was carrying was "concerned" enough to contact the Detectives and mention rifle.


Online Walt Cakebread

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Re: Oswald put his package straight into Frazier's car, why?
« Reply #26 on: January 14, 2018, 12:51:43 PM »
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A little bit of rain wont be an issue for a small paper bag that Lee could tuck under his armpit and cup it in his palm, right? His jacket would have shielded it. Lee may have suspected that BWF was waiting for him in the carport.

Mr. FRAZIER - No, sir; it didn't. I just thought maybe, you know, he just left a little bit earlier but when I looked up and saw that the clock was. I knew I was the one who was running a little bit late because, as I say, I was talking, sitting there eating breakfast and talking to the little nieces, it was later than I thought it was.

LMR told us this from her WC testimony.

Mrs. RANDLE. No; because I only opened the door briefly and what made me establish the door on Wesley's car, it is an old car and that door, the window is broken and everything and it is hard to close, so that cinched in my mind which door it was, too. But it was only briefly that I looked.


We don't know how hard it was raining when Lee walked from the house of Paine to  Frazier's car......

A little bit of rain wont be an issue for a small paper bag that Lee could tuck under his armpit and cup it in his palm, right? His jacket would have shielded it.

I believe that is exactly why Lee carried the flimsy brown paper sack under his arm...... He didn't want his lunch to fall out of a wet paper sack.


Offline Jerry Organ

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Re: Oswald put his package straight into Frazier's car, why?
« Reply #27 on: January 14, 2018, 03:45:41 PM »
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6. Solid wooden curtain rods to replace the cheap flimsy metal rods in Oswalds boardnig room.
7. Oswalds freshly washed socks and underwear, that he had washed and dryed thursday at Paines house..


18"-20" seems rather short for solid wooden curtain rods. I believe they're meant for longer spans.

Oswald was no longer getting his laundry done at Ruth Paine's. He was doing it himself in Oak Cliff.

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Neither brother nor sister can get their stories straight.

Add to this (LMR):
A stranger, who she recognized the day before as Oswald and was told came to pick up curtain rods, approaches her driveway carrying a long bag. Ring a bell? Apparently not, meaning a stranger carrying a bag gaining access to her brothers car does not prompt her to alert Buell who is right next to her at the kitchen table.


She could have put it better, but what I think she meant by "didn't recognize him" and "I wondered who was fixing to come to my back door" was that Oswald was a semi-stranger to her. That she wouldn't have been so nosey if Oswald had been a personal acquaintance of hers.

Quote

Add to this (BWF):
Buell, giving Oswald a ride home to pick up curtain rods, despite explaining this to his sister has forgotten all about it the next day running late picking up Oswald and has to ask what's in the long bag on the back seat.

Screams fabrication.

Maybe Frazier momentarily doubted it was curtain rods because the bag seemed excessive to contain just a few lightweight sliding metal curtain rods.

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Re: Oswald put his package straight into Frazier's car, why?
« Reply #27 on: January 14, 2018, 03:45:41 PM »


Online Tom Sorensen

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Re: Oswald put his package straight into Frazier's car, why?
« Reply #28 on: January 14, 2018, 07:09:50 PM »
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- snip -

She could have put it better, but what I think she meant by "didn't recognize him" and "I wondered who was fixing to come to my back door" was that Oswald was a semi-stranger to her. That she wouldn't have been so nosey if Oswald had been a personal acquaintance of hers.

Maybe Frazier momentarily doubted it was curtain rods because the bag seemed excessive to contain just a few lightweight sliding metal curtain rods.

Close but no cigar.

"I didn't recognize him" is exactly how she put it. So why did she say that to BALL when there is nothing about not recognizing Oswald in neither her AFFIDAVIT nor in the BOOKHAUT report?

Because even if Oswald was a semi-stranger she would have no reason to move to the back door to check on him since she had been told that Oswald picked up curtain rods, hence the long bag; still trying to improve on the tale as she couldn't have seen Oswald by the car unless she moved to the door.

I seriously doubt Frazier would expect a dime store bag to fit a random set of curtain rods, would you?

Note BTW that BALL carefully avoids asking LMR when and to whom she initially volunteers information about the bag...
   

Offline Bill Chapman

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Re: Oswald put his package straight into Frazier's car, why?
« Reply #29 on: January 14, 2018, 07:59:56 PM »






Note slats...
« Last Edit: January 14, 2018, 08:09:31 PM by Bill Chapman »

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Re: Oswald put his package straight into Frazier's car, why?
« Reply #29 on: January 14, 2018, 07:59:56 PM »