Author Topic: Where was Lovelady Standing in Wiegman and Altgens6?  (Read 7277 times)

Online James Hackerott

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Re: Where was Lovelady Standing in Wiegman and Altgens6?
« Reply #30 on: August 04, 2018, 02:21:31 AM »
Hi James,
just for my own sanity, I did mention "the two step thing" yes but I gave no evidence for it nor any explaination, basically I was referring to your caution on the observed one step drop for Lovelady in Wiegman that may not be reliable because of the movement of Dave's camera(so perhaps it was two steps).
Anyway, just a thought here, how about trying it another way, put your Lovelady model on step6 and show how it doesn't line up with Altgens.
Btw James, you might be the only researcher I'm aware of that thinks Wiegman opened first, I hope that's not influencing you too much because you may have trouble supporting that idea :)
Thanks for the heads-up...seems trouble is my middle name lately.
How about my last ani-collage in post #26. It cycles in order Landing, Landing-leaning 35deg, step 6 in an Altgens position, and step 5. Lovelady on 6 and Landing leaning share essentially the same 3D space. How to tell the difference? IDK

Offline Alan Ford

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Re: Where was Lovelady Standing in Wiegman and Altgens6?
« Reply #31 on: August 04, 2018, 07:37:28 PM »
James,
at the start of this thread it seems we all agreed that Lovelady appears to have only dropped down one step. Now since you've changed your mind on what step he is on in W2, as you wrote above, then it had to change something else.  Well it seems you quite easilly went from "one step" to two steps, only the height of one step  was cut in half from 7" to around 3.5" but with no explaination or reasoning.

Barry, James,
I hate to be a bore (!) but there is still a large issue here with the placement of Frazier in W1:



The blue line extends approximately from his chin. He is clearly much higher than, and at a much greater distance back from, Lovelady than in any of James' simulations. Given that we know pretty well the two men's actual heights, I can't for the life of me see how they can both be on the landing.

Offline Barry Pollard

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Re: Where was Lovelady Standing in Wiegman and Altgens6?
« Reply #32 on: August 04, 2018, 08:23:09 PM »
Hi Alan,
hopefully James will fix that and some of the other small details in the near future,
the distance between those two men in his model for example and the shadow hitting Lovelady's head.
When I saw BL on step6 for Altgens it looked good immeadiatly but the BL on the landing in Wiegman I'm still struggling with.

James, have you ever seen the Powers and Dillard images that both show the boxes in the SN put into motion by John Mytton?
That's what I was thinking of, similar to what you did with Lovelady sliding onto the lower step.
An animation that goes from Wiegman to Altgens that may rule out the 6th step for BL in W1.
I'm yet to be convinced your opinion is the correct one for W1, sorry.
Again for Altgens I had np, why would anyone doubt that? It just Syncs/Cinques/Sinks.

Online James Hackerott

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Re: Where was Lovelady Standing in Wiegman and Altgens6?
« Reply #33 on: August 05, 2018, 09:53:35 PM »
Barry, James,
I hate to be a bore (!) but there is still a large issue here with the placement of Frazier in W1:



The blue line extends approximately from his chin. He is clearly much higher than, and at a much greater distance back from, Lovelady than in any of James' simulations. Given that we know pretty well the two men's actual heights, I can't for the life of me see how they can both be on the landing.
Alan,
I've created three sets of Wiegman W1 vs Altgens6 at the landing, 6in East and 12in East.
For each set Lovelady leans from his approximate waist from 0-35deg. Please review and pick one or two that best match your Lovelady to Frazier observation.

p.s. I hope you and others have means to step through these as single frames. Maybe there is a better way to display these?

20180805 ani-collage1


Online James Hackerott

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Re: Where was Lovelady Standing in Wiegman and Altgens6?
« Reply #34 on: August 05, 2018, 10:03:49 PM »
Hi Alan,
hopefully James will fix that and some of the other small details in the near future,
the distance between those two men in his model for example and the shadow hitting Lovelady's head.
When I saw BL on step6 for Altgens it looked good immeadiatly but the BL on the landing in Wiegman I'm still struggling with.

James, have you ever seen the Powers and Dillard images that both show the boxes in the SN put into motion by John Mytton?
That's what I was thinking of, similar to what you did with Lovelady sliding onto the lower step.
An animation that goes from Wiegman to Altgens that may rule out the 6th step for BL in W1.
I'm yet to be convinced your opinion is the correct one for W1, sorry.
Again for Altgens I had np, why would anyone doubt that? It just Syncs/Cinques/Sinks.
Hey Barry, don't sweat the shadow on BL. Than is fixable with 4deg lean forward. I removed that when doing the 0-35deg leaning comparisons I just posted in #33.

Sure, I saw that morphing by John. Of course I tried it with my software and was quite pleased with his work vs mine. Good job. Now for what you are requesting I need to know a few more details. Are you looking for a 'morph' from W1 to W2, or W2 to Altgens6 or something else?
Before I do, please remove my name from the W1 short list for now :D. More to come...

Offline Alan Ford

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Re: Where was Lovelady Standing in Wiegman and Altgens6?
« Reply #35 on: August 05, 2018, 10:31:00 PM »
Alan,
I've created three sets of Wiegman W1 vs Altgens6 at the landing, 6in East and 12in East.
For each set Lovelady leans from his approximate waist from 0-35deg. Please review and pick one or two that best match your Lovelady to Frazier observation.

p.s. I hope you and others have means to step through these as single frames. Maybe there is a better way to display these?

20180805 ani-collage1


I'm afraid none of them do, James. The Wiegman frame does not (IMO) show Lovelady bending forward to any great extent, and each standing-straight Lovelady is simply too high, and too close, in relation to Frazier's head:



We seem to be looking at different Fraziers in W1! To replicate the actual relationship of BL and BWF in W1, why not simply put BL down on step 1?

Online James Hackerott

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Re: Where was Lovelady Standing in Wiegman and Altgens6?
« Reply #36 on: August 06, 2018, 08:55:51 PM »
I'm afraid none of them do, James. The Wiegman frame does not (IMO) show Lovelady bending forward to any great extent, and each standing-straight Lovelady is simply too high, and too close, in relation to Frazier's head:



We seem to be looking at different Fraziers in W1! To replicate the actual relationship of BL and BWF in W1, why not simply put BL down on step 1?
Alan, thank you for your observations- I fully agree. However, if Lovelady is on the landing he is too tall. If on step 6 he is too short. Goldilocks tells us we are seeing the process of Lovelady taking that step. Please compare this animation with your frame showing the line connecting Frazier's chin area to Lovelady's top of head. That frame is rotated some and has aspect issues, but not so much as to change the results.


p.s.
I'm  sorry Alan. I still have Frazier where I've had him for some time. Overlays of your frame with Frazier's head with my renderings basically fit where I place him. Will you please give me your reason for thinking him so far off?

Offline Barry Pollard

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Re: Where was Lovelady Standing in Wiegman and Altgens6?
« Reply #37 on: August 07, 2018, 08:18:58 PM »
James,
Billy's big lean in Altgens is to his left, not forward(did you say, you had trouble replicating that in your models? If so don't worry).
Anyway, his legs would not be and are not visible from Ike's position(but again no big).

Regarding the possible morth.
Altgens to Wstep6 was what I was requesting because I don't see the difference in Lovelady and Shelly in W1 and Altgens,
that is, it looks about the same to me, can you persuade me otherwise?

Also for Alan's benefit, perhaps you should do a close up of BL's and BWF's heads in the images and your model so we can see what the difference/trouble is.
I was looking at PMvBL in your latest post and they seem to line up with Wiegman only when Lovelady is about to hit the 6th step,
if you brought BWF forward in that frame that might be a match all around(I'm restricted to plain eyeballing it atm, don't expect any sudden overlays).

Online James Hackerott

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Re: Where was Lovelady Standing in Wiegman and Altgens6?
« Reply #38 on: August 09, 2018, 03:57:27 AM »
James,
Billy's big lean in Altgens is to his left, not forward(did you say, you had trouble replicating that in your models? If so don't worry).
Anyway, his legs would not be and are not visible from Ike's position(but again no big).

Regarding the possible morth.
Altgens to Wstep6 was what I was requesting because I don't see the difference in Lovelady and Shelly in W1 and Altgens,
that is, it looks about the same to me, can you persuade me otherwise?

Also for Alan's benefit, perhaps you should do a close up of BL's and BWF's heads in the images and your model so we can see what the difference/trouble is.
I was looking at PMvBL in your latest post and they seem to line up with Wiegman only when Lovelady is about to hit the 6th step,
if you brought BWF forward in that frame that might be a match all around(I'm restricted to plain eyeballing it atm, don't expect any sudden overlays).
Hey Barry,
Thanks for those clarifications. I'll respond in reverse of your comments.

I looked at Alan's Frazier image and shifted him 3? eastward so he is closer to the vertical door frame as seen in Wiegman and will leave him there.

I made a morph of the Altgens to W1 but its not a good presentation because much of the view is blocked by plaza objects. I did make a fly-by morph of the doorway as seen from the Elm Extension. I hope that gives a view to your liking.

As for the leftward lean that helps, but does not work just on its own. But combining a leftward lean of about 10deg with a forward bend of about 31deg gives a favorable Altgens and W1 view IMO. All on the landing. It also solves Alan's observation of Frazier's approximate chin level with BL.
201808081603 Altgens to W1 BL focus


« Last Edit: August 09, 2018, 04:05:54 AM by James Hackerott »

Offline Barry Pollard

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Re: Where was Lovelady Standing in Wiegman and Altgens6?
« Reply #39 on: August 10, 2018, 01:24:27 AM »
Man that is some fantastic looking work, thank you kindly James.
Now let me try and take it all in... :o
Ok, like you said it's not exactly what I was after but right now who cares?  Love it and that lean is really working.

 

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