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Author Topic: Where was Lovelady Standing in Wiegman and Altgens6?  (Read 1197 times)

Offline Barry Pollard

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Re: Where was Lovelady Standing in Wiegman and Altgens6?
« Reply #10 on: July 27, 2018, 11:24:30 PM »
James,
the difference between BL and Frazier appears to be more than one step as Alan observed.


Also, on your Altgens view.
You have Lovelady coming down to meet his position for Ike's photo but that doesn't appear correct.
His position in Altgens is the highest we see him and he's in the that same position in Wiegman IMO because we still see a slight leaning, then it's from from that position he goes down to a lower step.

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Re: Where was Lovelady Standing in Wiegman and Altgens6?
« Reply #10 on: July 27, 2018, 11:24:30 PM »


Offline Barry Pollard

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Re: Where was Lovelady Standing in Wiegman and Altgens6?
« Reply #11 on: July 27, 2018, 11:38:49 PM »
The slight lean that suggests it's within a couple seconds of Altgens to me,
also compare Lovelady to Shelley above and in Altgens, it looks very similar.
So this is the highest we see him.

Offline James Hackerott

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Re: Where was Lovelady Standing in Wiegman and Altgens6?
« Reply #12 on: July 28, 2018, 12:32:43 AM »
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Here he is, James. I've put a small dot on his left cheek. His distinctive hair contour is visible.

The height discrepancy between Frazier and Lovelady---as in the Wiegman-Darnell blend that Chris prepared---is simply too great for Lovelady to be on the landing also.
Alan & Barry,
I've taken a Wiegman frame from DiDP, a 5 frame composite of the doorway, your Frazier Id and my POV rendering. All three of the frames show the Frazier inside of your red circle, as well as the blue dot. I can't see why you feel my modeled Frazier is in a completely wrong position? Maybe a few inches to low? Please be patient to examine this new GIF and offer some thoughts.



Offline Barry Pollard

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Re: Where was Lovelady Standing in Wiegman and Altgens6?
« Reply #13 on: July 29, 2018, 02:26:18 AM »
James,
let me try again in case my question was lost or not clear enough.

In your view from Altgens, you have Lovelady coming down from the landing to meet his obligation for Ike's image, why?
Hughes(and perhaps Towner too) suggests he moved up the steps.


Offline James Hackerott

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Re: Where was Lovelady Standing in Wiegman and Altgens6?
« Reply #14 on: July 29, 2018, 03:51:39 AM »
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James,
the difference between BL and Frazier appears to be more than one step as Alan observed.


Also, on your Altgens view.
You have Lovelady coming down to meet his position for Ike's photo but that doesn't appear correct.
His position in Altgens is the highest we see him and he's in the that same position in Wiegman IMO because we still see a slight leaning, then it's from from that position he goes down to a lower step.
Hi Barry,
Barry, you beat this posting by about 20 minutes as I wrote it before I saw your last post.

Let me discuss the Altgens simulation in a little more detail. I think we are dealing with three distinct time periods beginning with the first Wiegman doorway views of Lovelady (W1 landing)-Altgens6 (step 6) -Wiegman (W2 step 6). In other words, Wiegman does not actually catch Lovelady in the Altgens6 location. So for that short period between W1 and W2 there is time for Lovelady to step into the Altgens6 position and then shift slightly eastward for his Wiegman position before W2 starts.
 
I put 5'8.5 Lovelady on step 6 for Altgens6 because of the similarity of the pose of his head against that of 5'6 Shelley (see post #1184 in the Prayer Woman thread). This step 6 scenario does not require, but could accommodate a slight amount of leaning - if  you think there is some leaning. All of this IMHO.

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Re: Where was Lovelady Standing in Wiegman and Altgens6?
« Reply #14 on: July 29, 2018, 03:51:39 AM »


Offline Barry Pollard

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Re: Where was Lovelady Standing in Wiegman and Altgens6?
« Reply #15 on: July 29, 2018, 04:07:52 PM »
Thanks James,
I agree that your positioning of Lovelady for Altgens looks very good with Shelley but I would suggest that in W1, there is no difference and yet you obviously dissagree.  I don't quite understand why yet sorry.  I was just asking Brian why he thought Wiegman comes perhaps 3-4s after Altgens, I think 1-2s later, now you are saying Wiegman came first because you see Lovelady higher than he is in Altgens. and it's W2 that is closest to Altgens, again I don't understand why, perhaps sometime you could point these differences out visually.
I think in W2, BL is back on the same step he was for Hughes, two up from Jones, whether that's on step 4 or 5 though I'm not sure.

Offline James Hackerott

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Re: Where was Lovelady Standing in Wiegman and Altgens6?
« Reply #16 on: July 29, 2018, 07:57:43 PM »
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James,
the difference between BL and Frazier appears to be more than one step as Alan observed.


Also, on your Altgens view.
You have Lovelady coming down to meet his position for Ike's photo but that doesn't appear correct.
His position in Altgens is the highest we see him and he's in the that same position in Wiegman IMO because we still see a slight leaning, then it's from from that position he goes down to a lower step.
The Texas Two Step...
Barry and Alan, I suppose I should eat my hat, but would rather eat Ruth Dean's hat. I had purposely modeled her height to represent the apparent height to the top of her  hat, but exaggerated it a few inches. I  now represent her matching eye levels. That looks more natural.

Then I placed Lovelady on the landing, 1 step down and 2 steps down and animated that versus a Wiegman W2 frame. I can agree with you and Alan that Lovelady does appear to be on step 5 in the second pass of Wiegman's view of the doorway. That does not change my opinion of him being on the landing in W1 and step 6 for Altgens6. Sorry for any trouble this might have caused anyone.

p.s.
I might consider adding 2 to Frazier's height, based on past and now personal enhancements from the deep shadow of the doorway. But that would make him about 6'3. Do we have a hard number for his height?
p.p.s
I also remodeled the horizontal aluminum frame by changing it from a slender cylinder to a box shape with more width. That may help visualization of Frazier in doorway. Disguised warning, don't use Frazier's height for quantitative estimations in this model at this time.


Offline James Hackerott

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Re: Where was Lovelady Standing in Wiegman and Altgens6?
« Reply #17 on: July 29, 2018, 08:09:40 PM »
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Thanks James,
I agree that your positioning of Lovelady for Altgens looks very good with Shelley but I would suggest that in W1, there is no difference and yet you obviously dissagree.  I don't quite understand why yet sorry.  I was just asking Brian why he thought Wiegman comes perhaps 3-4s after Altgens, I think 1-2s later, now you are saying Wiegman came first because you see Lovelady higher than he is in Altgens. and it's W2 that is closest to Altgens, again I don't understand why, perhaps sometime you could point these differences out visually.
I think in W2, BL is back on the same step he was for Hughes, two up from Jones, whether that's on step 4 or 5 though I'm not sure.

Barry, I think for him to be on the landing puts him too high. He appearns taller than Shelly then. I suppose the argument is Lovelady leans enough to lower his chin below Shelley's. I find that difficult to believe. I will try to re-test this, but it will require some surgery on my mannequins to be able to bend at the waist. I will check out the Hughes frame too when I can.

Best Regards


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Re: Where was Lovelady Standing in Wiegman and Altgens6?
« Reply #17 on: July 29, 2018, 08:09:40 PM »


Offline Alan Ford

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Re: Where was Lovelady Standing in Wiegman and Altgens6?
« Reply #18 on: July 29, 2018, 08:33:32 PM »
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The Texas Two Step...
Barry and Alan, I suppose I should eat my hat, but would rather eat Ruth Dean's hat. I had purposely modeled her height to represent the apparent height to the top of her  hat, but exaggerated it a few inches. I  now represent her matching eye levels. That looks more natural.

Then I placed Lovelady on the landing, 1 step down and 2 steps down and animated that versus a Wiegman W2 frame. I can agree with you and Alan that Lovelady does appear to be on step 5 in the second pass of Wiegman's view of the doorway. That does not change my opinion of him being on the landing in W1 and step 6 for Altgens6. Sorry for any trouble this might have caused anyone.

p.s.
I might consider adding 2 to Frazier's height, based on past and now personal enhancements from the deep shadow of the doorway. But that would make him about 6'3. Do we have a hard number for his height?
p.p.s
I also remodeled the horizontal aluminum frame by changing it from a slender cylinder to a box shape with more width. That may help visualization of Frazier in doorway. Disguised warning, don't use Frazier's height for quantitative estimations in this model at this time.


Thanks for your continued work on this, James  Thumb1:

In W1, Lovelady is approximately at the height of Frazier's chin:

In W2, he goes down another step:


Offline James Hackerott

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Re: Where was Lovelady Standing in Wiegman and Altgens6?
« Reply #19 on: July 29, 2018, 10:22:41 PM »
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Thanks for your continued work on this, James  Thumb1:

In W1, Lovelady is approximately at the height of Frazier's chin:

In W2, he goes down another step:

I increased Frazier to 6'3 per enhanced frames, and redid the overlays. It looks to me like landing for W1 and step 5 for W2.

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Re: Where was Lovelady Standing in Wiegman and Altgens6?
« Reply #19 on: July 29, 2018, 10:22:41 PM »