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Author Topic: What If Grassy Knoll Sounds And Smoke Were "Only" A Diversion?--A Fun Update!  (Read 21513 times)

Offline Benjamin Cole

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Re: What If Grassy Knoll Sounds And Smoke Were "Only" A Diversion
« Reply #16 on: January 14, 2018, 07:24:53 AM »
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John---thanks for your comment.

In some ways, that is my point.

The Grassy Knoll diversionist selected a spot hidden from other bystanders, and was armed with a snub-nose .38. The diversionist may not have behind the stockade fence, but rather alongside the pergola-colonnade in the bushes. He may have even fired from a crouched position (naturally enough, not wanting return fire from the secret Service or to be seen), with his revolver pointed skyward but over the motorcade.

I too wonder why no one saw a long-rifle anywhere near the Grassy knoll, with the exception of one dubious witness. I conclude the gunshot noises and smoke were made with a snub-nose or improvised fiorecracker.

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Re: What If Grassy Knoll Sounds And Smoke Were "Only" A Diversion
« Reply #16 on: January 14, 2018, 07:24:53 AM »


Offline Steve Thomas

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Re: What If Grassy Knoll Sounds And Smoke Were "Only" A Diversion
« Reply #17 on: January 14, 2018, 09:00:11 AM »
Benjamin,

Without addressing your basic premise, I wouldn't give too much weight to the "hysterical woman" in Joe M. Smith's testimony.
I'm not sure whose affidavit Gary Craig was referencing, but he quotes someone as saying in their affidavit that, "?Some stopped to talk to people standing there as there were a number of women who were hysterical.?
The woman Smith encountered was just one of them.

It's really helpful to pull up CE 354 (as the WC staff did when questioning Joe Smith) and have it side by side when you go through his testimony.
https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=1133#relPageId=973&tab=page

The way I am reading it, he encountered the woman very near the Depository, and then proceeded down the Elm St. extension. He encountered the "Secret Service Agent" in, or very near the parking lot that runs behind, or on the north side of the concrete structure some people refer to as the pergola.

I don't know enough about rifles vs. revolvers and the smell they produce to comment intelligently on your basic premise.

Steve Thomas

Offline Benjamin Cole

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Re: What If Grassy Knoll Sounds And Smoke Were "Only" A Diversion
« Reply #18 on: January 14, 2018, 10:48:04 AM »
Craig: Great list.

To me, even more telling than gunshot noise is the sight and smell of gunsmoke.

One could posit that sound bounces, there were echos, and other noises that day in Dealey Plaza. Personally, I think people accurately heard shots from the Grassy Knoll-colonnade area, but a weak case can be made witnesses were mistaken.   

But no one seriously posits that Dealey Plaza witnesses were smelling gunsmoke from the TSBD, 80 yards downwind. The LN crowd stumbles on this, and the WC just ignored it. The HSCA, more or less, concluded that shot was a miss.

You miss a limo from 75 feet?

Some witnesses recall the sight of gunsmoke, but say it was in the trees etc., so some witnesses could miss that.

To me the basic premise survives: It strains credulity that there were gunshots and copious gunsmoke on the Grassy Knoll just as the President was being assassinated, and yet no shot from the front-right hit even the limousine. 

A intentional diversion fits the facts.

Add on: Seems also a real assassin would want a secluded place he could camp out for a while (even 10 minutes), and level a long-rifle. Oswald (if it was Oswald) had that, and so might assassins in the Dal-Tex building.

Who would bring a rifle alongside a parade route for the President? If even one witness spotted such a individual even three minute before the shooting, the gig would likely be up. 

But a snub-nose .38 is perfect as a diversion. 

The "hysterical woman": Sure there are photos of women crying that day, and even lots of guys, naturally enough. But one summoned Patrolman Smith, and made clear gunman were in the bushes, somewhere around the pergola-colonnade. He took her seriously, and began searching that area.

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Re: What If Grassy Knoll Sounds And Smoke Were "Only" A Diversion
« Reply #18 on: January 14, 2018, 10:48:04 AM »


Offline Dan DAlimonte

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Re: What If Grassy Knoll Sounds And Smoke Were "Only" A Diversion
« Reply #19 on: January 14, 2018, 02:16:16 PM »
Dan--

Thanks for reading and you sensible commentary. Of course, what you suggest makes sense--if the diversion was poorly timed and too early---it would alert the Secret Service and others.

I posit the diversionist was told something along the lines of, "Wait until you hear gunshots. Then, do your diversion." After the first gunshot, the Secret  Service is alerted anyway (well, they should have been).

So, I think a diversion plan holds water, if the diversionist is told to hold his shot-and-smoke show until after the first "real" shot.

BTW, this diversion action may explain why so many witnesses describe the first shot as not as loud as subsequent shots.

Hey, Ben.  Despite the few knuckleheads who frequent this place, I do hope you decide to stay.
You (like most of us) do seem to want to discuss this case in a sane and rational manner.
At any rate.here's my take on this.  To me, there's two types of diversion tactics which a group could use
to commit murder.  The first is like what happened to Malcolm X.   He had started to or was about to start  a speech to a seated crowd in a hall of some sort when a fake fight broke out.  As everyone's attention was drawn to that fake fight a gunman approached Malcolm and shot him dead and then he (like everyone else, innocent or guilty alike) bolted.  This type of diversion was meant to increase the odds of committing the crime. 
The second type of diversion, as you suggest, is not to increase the chances of successfully committing
the crime but was designed to allow the real assassin(s) to flee and there is a difference.  Again, I really don't think the group would have spent so much time planning to fake shots when they could have had real shots aimed to kill

Offline Jerry Organ

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Re: What If Grassy Knoll Sounds And Smoke Were "Only" A Diversion
« Reply #20 on: January 14, 2018, 04:03:47 PM »
Funny how those witnesses closest to the fence corner (like Hudson and Sitzman) totally missed the "copious gunsmoke" and diversionary gun shot/firecracker sound.

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Re: What If Grassy Knoll Sounds And Smoke Were "Only" A Diversion
« Reply #20 on: January 14, 2018, 04:03:47 PM »


Offline Benjamin Cole

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Re: What If Grassy Knoll Sounds And Smoke Were "Only" A Diversion
« Reply #21 on: January 15, 2018, 02:07:44 AM »
Dan-

Thanks again for reading, and I enjoy your observations.

Yeah, that is a good point: Why not just take a real shot at the President from the Grassy Knoll-pergola area and then run away. It would be both a diversion from the main assassins and another chance to kill the target.

Well, I think a few reasons.

The limo is running left to right from anyone standing in the Grassy Knoll area (the Zapruder film view, for example). If one wishes to remain hidden from view, that means crouching down behind the pergola or the stockade fence (remember Secret Service eyes forward from the motorcade). 

A shot at the horizontally moving target with a handgun is possible, but probably not reliable.

So a sensible to-kill Grassy Knoll shot means pointing a long rifle at the president, but no credible witness saw a rifle that day near the Grassy Knoll. None has shown up on photos, or movies. None was found tossed aside after the event. Some have pointed out that a shooter behind the stockade fence has his view of the motorcade blocked by the pergola-monument "until the last moment."

I can imagine carrying a break-apart rifle to ground-level along motorcade route. But how to run away carrying a rifle? But no rifle found at the scene.

So I deduce no rifle was used on the Grassy Knoll.

Another thought: The real assassins are hired and they survey the scene. They are in the Dal-Tex building, and they are not affiliated with Oswald. They say, "Nice layout, we are shooting from behind the president, and he is more or less moving in a straight line from us. But we need to escape after the act. So plan a diversion near the Grassy Knoll, but wait until our first shot."

The Dal-Tax shooters have semi-automatics, so it will be fast after the first shot anyway

Also, not every plan is a perfect plan. Maybe the diversion was a "bad idea." It risked exposure before the real shots were fired. It risked capture of the Grassy Knoll diversionist, who might confess. The more confederates in a conspiracy, the more chances for leaks, bumbling, extortion (one might wonder how long the diversionist lived after Nov. 22).

But the "Grassy Knoll" diversion plan fits the events. It was the plan they went with. People make plans, and plans have flaws. They have to work with available resources, the topography at hand, and personnel. Might have had only a week or two for on-the-ground for planning. They planned a diversion.

Anyway, that is my reasonable conjecture on the Grassy Knoll smoke-and-shot show.




Offline Gary Craig

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Re: What If Grassy Knoll Sounds And Smoke Were "Only" A Diversion
« Reply #22 on: January 15, 2018, 02:26:58 AM »
Funny how those witnesses closest to the fence corner (like Hudson and Sitzman) totally missed the "copious gunsmoke" and diversionary gun shot/firecracker sound.

Right Jerry. That's why the majority of the people closest to JFK's limo when he was shot ran toward the

grassy knoll.  Almost none of the people at the corner of Houston and Elm, the alleged source of the shots,

ran toward the TSBD looking for a shooter. 

-------------

http://www.maryferrell.org/mffweb/archive/viewer/showDoc.do?docId=35&relPageId=304

Mr. Hargis: I was at the left-hand side of the Presidential Limousine.

Mr. Stern: Riding next to Mrs. Kennedy?

Mr. Hargis: Right.

....Well at the time it sounded like the shots were right next to me. There wasn't
anyway in the world I could tell where they were coming from but at the time there
was something in my head that said that they probably could have been coming from the
 railroad overpass, because I thought since I had got splattered with blood-I was just
a little back and left of-justa little back and left of Mrs. Kennedy, but I didn't know.
I had a feeling that it might have been from the Texas Book Depository. and these places
was the primary place that could have been shot from....

....I ran across the street looking over towards the rairoad overpass and I remembered
seeing people scattering and running and then I looked--...

.....and then I looked over to the Texas School Book Depository Building, and no one that
was standing at the base of the building was--seemed to be looking up at the building or
anything like they knew where the shots were coming from,so
.....

.....Well, then, I thought since I had looked over at the Texas Book Depository and some
people looking out of the windows up there, didn't seem like they knew what was going on,
but none of them were looking towards or near anywhere the shots had been fired from
.....

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Re: What If Grassy Knoll Sounds And Smoke Were "Only" A Diversion
« Reply #22 on: January 15, 2018, 02:26:58 AM »


Offline Gary Craig

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Re: What If Grassy Knoll Sounds And Smoke Were "Only" A Diversion
« Reply #23 on: January 15, 2018, 03:09:13 AM »


?Motorcade Cop Tells How It Happened,? Sunday News (New York), 24 November 1963
p.25:

Dallas, Nov. 23 (Special) - B. W. Hargis, 31, Dallas motorcycle patrolman who was riding
in President Kennedy?s motorcade, gave this account today of the assassination:
 
?We turned left onto Elm St. off Houston, about half a block from where it happened. I was
right alongside the rear fender on the left hand side of the President?s car, near Mrs. Kennedy.
 
When I heard the first explosion, I knew it was a shot. I thought that Gov. Connally had been
hit when I saw him turn toward the President with a real surprised look.

The President then looked like he was bent over or that he was leaning toward the Governor, talking to him.
 
As the President straightened back up, Mrs. Kennedy turned toward him, and that was when he got hit in the side of his head, spinning it around.

I was splattered with blood.
 
Then I felt something hit me. It could have been concrete or something, but I thought at first I might have been hit.

Then I saw the limousine stop, and I parked my motorcycle at the side of the road, got off and drew my gun.
 
Then this Secret Service agent (in the President?s car) got his wits about him and they took off. The
motorcycle officer on the right side of the car was Jim Chaney. He immediately went forward and announced to the chief that the President had been shot.?