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Author Topic: John Newman on Veciana  (Read 1769 times)

Offline W. Tracy Parnell

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John Newman on Veciana
« on: July 26, 2018, 02:28:26 PM »
This is my report on the Newman video presentation regarding Veciana for those who are not inclined to watch the entire video:

http://wtracyparnell.blogspot.com/2018/07/john-newman-on-veciana.html

Offline Steve M. Galbraith

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Re: John Newman on Veciana
« Reply #1 on: July 26, 2018, 06:51:05 PM »
This is my report on the Newman video presentation regarding Veciana for those who are not inclined to watch the entire video:

http://wtracyparnell.blogspot.com/2018/07/john-newman-on-veciana.html

By September of 1959 - when Veciana alleges he first met Bishop/Phillips - the situation in Cuba was getting dicey. Castro had expropriated the land and property of Cubans earlier that year - he would take US property the next year - and had executed hundreds if not thousands of opponents. It was clear where Castro was headed and it wasn't in the direction of democracy.

If Newman is correct that Phillip's CIA cover was getting tenuous/weak by 1959, then why would he meet openly with Veciana in the middle of the day at the national bank owned by Julio Lobo, a noted opponent of Castro's? Isn't that what cutouts are for? Anti-Castro Lobo. Middle of the day. At the bank? In person? Really? And recruiting, Veciana, a bank accountant with no military background?

Sure, even smart people do dumb things. We can't dismiss the account simply because it seems stupid. But this is beyond dumb.
« Last Edit: July 26, 2018, 07:06:27 PM by Steve M. Galbraith »

Offline W. Tracy Parnell

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Re: John Newman on Veciana
« Reply #2 on: July 26, 2018, 07:54:33 PM »
By September of 1959 - when Veciana alleges he first met Bishop/Phillips - the situation in Cuba was getting dicey. Castro had expropriated the land and property of Cubans earlier that year - he would take US property the next year - and had executed hundreds if not thousands of opponents. It was clear where Castro was headed and it wasn't in the direction of democracy.

If Newman is correct that Phillip's CIA cover was getting tenuous/weak by 1959, then why would he meet openly with Veciana in the middle of the day at the national bank owned by Julio Lobo, a noted opponent of Castro's? Isn't that what cutouts are for? Anti-Castro Lobo. Middle of the day. At the bank? In person? Really? And recruiting, Veciana, a bank accountant with no military background?

Sure, even smart people do dumb things. We can't dismiss the account simply because it seems stupid. But this is beyond dumb.


I agree Steve. I look forward to Newman's book and it will be interesting to check his sources. But it looks like this is another nail in the coffin for Veciana. I think researchers will be examining his story for years to come trying to figure out what his game is. I think that he created the Bishop character to avoid prosecution for any illegal acts he might have committed during his time as an anti-Castro activist. He was surprised to find all the interest that the story generated and went along with it through the years changing it as needed. Of course, Bishop may have been based on one or more individuals that he worked with or simply been an imaginary character. It is also possible Phillips, or a subordinate, was Bishop but I believe Veciana embellished quite a bit, especially the part about seeing Oswald which was the gold nugget he used to attract attention.

Offline Steve M. Galbraith

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Re: John Newman on Veciana
« Reply #3 on: July 26, 2018, 08:01:05 PM »

I agree Steve. I look forward to Newman's book and it will be interesting to check his sources. But it looks like this is another nail in the coffin for Veciana. I think researchers will be examining his story for years to come trying to figure out what his game is. I think that he created the Bishop character to avoid prosecution for any illegal acts he might have committed during his time as an anti-Castro activist. He was surprised to find all the interest that the story generated and went along with it through the years changing it as needed. Of course, Bishop may have been based on one or more individuals that he worked with or simply been an imaginary character. It is also possible Phillips, or a subordinate, was Bishop but I believe Veciana embellished quite a bit, especially the part about seeing Oswald which was the gold nugget he used to attract attention.

Yes, I'm especially interested in what Newman has on Phillip's activities in Cuba around the time in question, i.e., 1959 and 1960. If it's true - as he says - that Phillips' cover was "weak" then recruiting anti-Castro people in the middle of the day seems, let's say, "problematic."

Newman is quite adept at ferreting out information. His problem is, it seems to me, the conclusions he makes about that material. His account of Oswald in Mexico City is just not very convincing.






« Last Edit: July 26, 2018, 09:00:11 PM by Steve M. Galbraith »

Offline Steve M. Galbraith

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Re: John Newman on Veciana
« Reply #4 on: July 27, 2018, 03:42:32 PM »
This is my report on the Newman video presentation regarding Veciana for those who are not inclined to watch the entire video:

http://wtracyparnell.blogspot.com/2018/07/john-newman-on-veciana.html

Tracy, did you read/see this review of Veciana's book by Dan Hardway? Hardway worked with Lopez on the HSCA and helped compile the so-called Lopez report on Oswald's activity in Mexico City.

Hardway believes in the "stop WWIII theory" behind the investigation. That is Phillips set up Oswald to take the blame for the assassination and that a major component of this plan was to send him, Oswald, to Mexico City and connect him with Cuba through the visa request (Hardway is wrong: Oswald sought a transit visa not a permanent one).

Then, Phillips et al. (whoever that was) killed JFK. When the government investigated the assassination - and Oswald's activities - it led back to Cuba and the USSR and out of a fear of a war the investigation was essentially halted. The "real" assassins of JFK weren't found.

It's here: https://aarclibrary.org/a-professional-conspirator-questions-about-antonio-veciana-and-his-book-trained-to-kill/
« Last Edit: July 27, 2018, 04:23:27 PM by Steve M. Galbraith »

Offline W. Tracy Parnell

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Re: John Newman on Veciana
« Reply #5 on: July 27, 2018, 04:38:53 PM »
Tracy, did you read/see this review of Veciana's book by Dan Hardway? Hardway worked with Lopez on the HSCA and helped compile the so-called Lopez report.

Hardway believes in the "stop WWIII theory" behind the investigation. That is Phillips set up Oswald to take the blame for the assassination and that a major component of this plan was to send him, Oswald, to Mexico City and connect him with Cuba through the visa request (Hardway is wrong: Oswald sought a transit visa not a permanent one).

Then, Phillips et al. (whoever that was) killed JFK. When the government investigated the assassination - and Oswald's activities - it led back to Cuba and the USSR and out of a fear of a war the investigation was essentially halted. The "real" assassins of JFK weren't found.

It's here: https://aarclibrary.org/a-professional-conspirator-questions-about-antonio-veciana-and-his-book-trained-to-kill/


Yes, I saw that. Hardway is a "CIA did it" believer and although he expresses skepticism saying certain "problems" with Veciana's story "do raise questions about his credibility", he believes that this results from Veciana not telling the whole truth rather than his flat out lying. But Hardway and people like Morley need to go back and trace the evolution of the story. But they don't because they desperately want to believe it.

For example, Hardway says that Veciana has been "fairly consistent" that the date of the meeting was late August or early September. But all of that happened after Fonzi got a hold of Veciana. If you go back to the 3 original interviews, which Fonzi's HSCA report were supposedly based on, you'll find that late August or September in any form are never mentioned. Veciana only said summer of '63 July or August. Now you have people like Wynn Johnson trying to say it was a specific date like September 7 which is just nonsense.

Another example-Hardway says that "Wynne?s dating matches [Veciana's] recollection of the meeting being near the end of a week in either late August or early September." But as I noted, Veciana never said this in the early Fonzi interviews nor did he say it in his June 1976 Dick Russell interview (only saying August without "late"). Not only that, but in his HSCA testimony when he was asked to pinpoint some details about the meeting he said it was on a weekday. Hardway also calls Veciana an "agent of the CIA" which there is no evidence for. I could go on, but you get the idea. Hopefully, Newman will shed some light on many things including Veciana's true association with the CIA and Army Intelligence.

Offline Tom Scully

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Re: John Newman on Veciana
« Reply #6 on: July 27, 2018, 09:16:04 PM »
?....

Newman is quite adept at ferreting out information. His problem is, it seems to me, the conclusions he makes about that material. His account of Oswald in Mexico City is just not very convincing.

Do the coincidences dilute the research or obscure the meaning of it?

Despite my repeated direct communications to John Simkin, I was unable to influence him to correct the following article to display the
fact that Priscilla Johnson who interviewed Oswald in Moscow in 1959 and later authored the book, Marina & Lee, was Priscilla Mary Post Johnson.

Based on the research of John Newmam, I was able to find that Priscilla Livingston Johnson, born in Stockholm in 1922 as John Newman pointed out,
served in OSS in London in WWII and married soon to be CIA officer in 1945, Thomas McCoy, who later "volunteered" along with his best friend Tom Finney
in the 1968 presidential campaign of Eugene McCarthy.
           
Quote
http://spartacus-educational.com/JFKjohnsonPR.htm
Priscilla Livingston Johnson was born in Glen Cove, New York, on 19th July, 1928. As a student she was a member of the United World Federalists, an organization run by Cord Meyer. After graduating with a master's degree from Radcliffe College in 1952 she applied to join the Central Intelligence Agency.

.....Priscilla Johnson returned to the United States in April 1957. The CIA continued to take an interest in Johnson. In a CIA document dated 23rd August, 1957, Johnson was described as being born in Stockholm, Sweden, on 23rd September 1922. It also stated that during the Second World War she was "utilized by OSO (Office of Special Operations) in 1943 and 1944". John M. Newman has speculated that Johnson was being given a cover story of someone who had a "good security record"....

Quote
http://educationforum.ipbhost.com/topic/8045-priscilla-l-johnson/?page=3&tab=comments#comment-263845
Tom Scully  Posted December 6, 2012
Quote
Oswald and the CIA: The Documented Truth about the Unknown ... - Page 64
books.google.com/books?isbn=1602392536
John Newman - 2008 - Preview - More editions
....Historians now have the unenviable task of trying to figure out whether the CIA was inventing a false Priscilla Johnson or whether it was incapable of telling the difference between two people born five years and three thousand miles apart .
?..
We are left to make of all of this, what we will; a recap of backgrounds and relationships.:
In his 1968 presidential campaign, in addtion to known CIA clandestine operatives McCoy and Finney, Eugene McCarthy was assisted by two other men who had backgrounds easily associated with
U.S. intelligence and espionage work, McCarthy's neighbor John Safer, and Larry Merthan, WWII bomber navigator fluent in German, who had worked for the State Dept. in Stuttgart in 1946 and temporarily left his law practice in 1959 to work for a State Dept. educational program in West Germany. He married Bill Harvey's secretary, later Rosalind Carter's White House assistant, Rita Chapowicki. Rita's sister was a Navy nurse "installed" by George Burkley in response to JFK's choice of his own female personal physician. Nurse Elizabeth Chapowicki and Navy Capt. George Burkley continued at the White House through the administration of LBJ.
So, one or the other of the two Chapowicki sisters was in an intimate White House position during nearly the entire administrations of the three democratic party affiliated US presidents in office between 1961 and 1981, and Rita Chapowicki's husband Larry was
close to democratic senator and presidential candidate McCarthy.
?...

In the small, tight knit Bar Harbor, ME community of the 1930s and 40s were John D Rockefeller II and his sons, Priscilla Livingston Johnson's father,
diplomate Hallett Johnson, John Train's father, Arthur Train, and of course, John McCloy.

John Train's partner Tom Devine roomed with 16 Sigma Chi frat brothers on the MIT campus fraternity house with Gary Coit, CIA handler of Priscilla Mary Post
Johnson. Devine had nine contacts with DeMphrenschildt, beginning April 25, 1963, just 15 days after the alleged shooting attempt against Gen. Edwin Walker.

Tom Finney was law partner of Clark Clifford, loaned to CIA in 1955 to serve in Denmark, and loaned again in 1968 to the Eugene McCarthy campaign.

The man in this 1964 photo, a close friend and Santa Fe, NM neighbor of Priscilla's first cousin, David C Davenport, formerly of the CIA, was Jerome A Hasty,
aka Hastings, married at the time the photo was taken in late 1964, to the aunt of Clark Clifford, Marguerite Bowman McAdams.

http://www.nydailynews.com/news/national/author-85-knew-jfk-killer-oswald-article-1.1525293

Marina Oswald (left), widow of Lee Harvey Oswald, with friend Jerre Hastings (center) and Priscilla Johnson McMillan. McMillan befriended Oswald after the assassination of JFK. (Josh Reynolds/JOSH REYNOLDS PHOTO)
« Last Edit: July 27, 2018, 09:24:01 PM by Tom Scully »

Offline Tom Scully

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Re: John Newman on Veciana
« Reply #7 on: July 27, 2018, 09:29:26 PM »
?.continued from my last post.

The following was originally posted here.:
https://www.jfkassassinationforum.com/index.php/topic,144.msg2931.html#msg2931
Priscilla's Neighborhood, traces of George Bouhe, Ilya Mamantov, Thomas Devine

Look at Clark Clifford's sordid career after 1963! Including Chairman of BCCI.

Raymond Rocca in the first CIA Garrison Group Meeting stated that he thought Garrison would get a conviction against Shaw.  They decided they should inform certain people of the seriousness of the situation.  Obviously the first name they quoted was the Director.  Next was Hoover and then Clark Clifford, Yale Skull and Bones!!
Clark Clifford did not attend Yale and was not Skull and Bones.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clark_Clifford

Friends in High Places: The Rise and Fall of Clark Clifford - Page 15
https://books.google.com/books?isbn=0316291625


I do find it curious that the man married to Clifford's aunt Marguerite Bowman McAdams in late
1964 was a close friend of Priscilla's first cousin, David C Davenport, CIA, and performed as driver
and bodyguard of Priscilla and Marina.
https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=60397&relPageId=146 and http://www.maryferrell.org/mffweb/archive/viewer/showDoc.do?docId=60313&relPageId=49

20 October, 2001

Without Reservations: From Harlem to the End of the Santa Fe Trail
https://books.google.com/books?isbn=0943734363


2-1/2 years later, Clark Cilfford's first cousin JoAnne McAdams
filed a lawsuit against that man, her stepfather Jerome Jerre Hastings Hasty, his friend David Davenport,
and several doctors for involuntarily committing her to the State of New Mexico mental hospital.

No one reacts to those facts because they do not know what to make of them despite the uncontested
facts that support all of that as true!

Caprio and company must read it in a 40 year old book to embrace it unconditionally.

Quote
Las Vegas Optic from Las Vegas, New Mexico on July 31, 1967 ? Page 1
https://www.newspapers.com/newspage/35602601/
Miss Me Adams, who is not represented by an attorney in the suit relates in the complaint that she had come to Santa Fe to visit her mother, Mrs. Marguerite McAdams Hasty, and her mother's husband, Jerome Hasty, and David Davenport, a friend of Hasty, induced her to consult Dr. Roscnbaum. As a result, she claims, the ...



http://www.nydailynews.com/news/national/author-85-knew-jfk-killer-oswald-article-1.1525293

Marina Oswald (left), widow of Lee Harvey Oswald, with friend Jerre Hastings (center) and Priscilla Johnson McMillan. McMillan befriended Oswald after the assassination of JFK. (JOSH REYNOLDS/JOSH REYNOLDS PHOTO)

1954 Obit:


Quote
http://www.newspapers.com/newspage/449857/
Alton Evening Telegraph ? 21 December 1950 ? Page 18

....Miss Margaret Clifford Weds in Chevy Chuse The marriage of Lt. William
Henry Lanagan, jr., United States Marine Corps, and Miss Margaret
Pepperell Clifford, daughter of Mr. and Mrs. Clark, McAdams Clifford, were
married Wednesday at 4 o'clock in All Saints Episcopal Church, Chevy
Chase, Md. A reception was held at the recently acquired estate of the
Cliffords, 8551 Rockville Pike, Bethesda, Md., after the wedding. Guests
included the bride's paternal grandmother, Mrs. Frank A. Clifford of St.
Louis, and uncle, William D. McAdams of New York.

Quote
Chicago Tribune - Aug 16, 1954
RIES William Douglas McAdims Services for William Doug- las McAdams, 67, of 734 Lin- coln av., Wlnnetka, who died Saturday in his home, will be held at 10 am Wednesday in the Congregational churc4, Winnetka. He had been a Winnetka resident for forty years and also maintained a home ..Mr. McAdams leaves his wife, Marguerite Bowman McAdams; a son, William D. ... three daughters, Joan A. McAdams, Mrs. IVarilyn Barton and Mrs. Marguerite Borregaard.....
1940 U.S. Census snippet of a household in New Trier (Winnetka)Illinois:

On April 26, 1940, Jerome A Hastings was a 29 year old man who was born in Wisconsin and was employed as a buyer at a country club. His education level was C2, two years of college. Hastings' annual income was just over $300. In 1935 his residence was in Flemington, NJ.

On May 18, Jerome Hasty was a 29 year old man who was born in Wisconsin and was employed as a officer at a country club. His education level was C1, one year of college. Hasty's annual income was just over $600. In 1935 his residence was in Carmel-by-the-Sea, CAL.

26 years later, Jerome Allen Hasty files a notice of legal change of name from Hasty to Hastings:



« Last Edit: July 27, 2018, 09:34:08 PM by Tom Scully »

Offline Steve M. Galbraith

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Re: John Newman on Veciana
« Reply #8 on: September 25, 2018, 05:30:55 PM »
Of course, the main argument is always "there is no evidence". Don't you folks have the imagination to wonder... Why?

       Why exactly are the limo blueprints hidden and nobody, I repeat nobody knows their whereabouts?

Back to Veciana: Maurice Bishop (aka Not-So-Secret Santa) was able to supply him with any resource he desired (much like ABC, PBS, Kochs, Haags, Sturdivan, etc.) during a decade. If Antonio had said:

[Veciana:] "An aircraft carrier".

[Bishop:] "Which class? Don't you rather have two?"

(I am, of course, exaggerating for effect)

How about the meeting in Caracas where a TV station (I happen to know the owners of Venevision, the Cisneros, fierce anticommunists) provided the cameras to hide the weapons and kill Fidel in Santiago de Chile during Allende's inauguration? The Cisneros are Cubans closely affiliated with powerful people. So the CIA knew nothing? Boy, what a bunch of incompetent keystone kops!

Even if it was not the CIA (let's say that some other rich/powerful source was Veciana's benefactor). Can you look us in the eye and claim that the CIA was completely ignorant about such well provisioned man and movement (Alpha 66)? In the most closely watched corridor (Miami - Habana) in the planet?

    https://goo.gl/D4AFbE  [Click in HSCA.mp4, then fast forward to minute 1:00"]

In the videoclip above you can see John McCone, head of the CIA acknowledged before Congress having an agent using the cover name "Maurice Bishop", but then recanted. That detail was kept secret for a long time (thanks again, Oliver Stone!). Hardway and Lopez were furious. Even G. Robert Blakey has changed his tune today, veering his accusing finger from the mob to the CIA.

    "The job of a spy is to lie, and then lie some some more"

-Ramon
JFK Numbers


ps: Tracy: I posted something specially for you, Chez McAdams, in the thread where you kiss his ring.
Veciana says in his book that Bishop provided no funds/money at all to his group. Evidence (in the book and elsewhere) indicates that he, Veciana, had enormous problems funding operations for it. In fact, Alpha 66 splintered into several factions early on due to internal divisions and financial problems.

Many of the exiles, especially the wealthier ones, refused to give money to Alpha 66 because they viewed it as a leftist/socialist organization. This was because the military leader of the group - Eloy Menoyo - joined Castro's government briefly after the revolution. They didn't trust him.

So your claim that Alpha 66 got whatever they want from Bishop is belied by Veciana's own account that he, Bishop, never provided money for their operations.

It is apparently true - based on Veciana's account - that when his group needed munitions or arms that they were always supplied with them. So if he's being truthful - doubtful in my opinion - then someone or some group was providing those resources to his group.

Just to add: Alpha 66 operated from overseas; their home base during this period was in Puerto Rico and the British Isles. Not Miami.

As to McCone: Nowhere in his testimony did McCone "acknowledge[] before Congress having an agent using the cover name "Maurice Bishop". McCone testified that he remembers hearing about a CIA employee named Maurice Bishop. Nothing about an "agent using the cover name."

Here is his relevant testimony:


Nothing here about Bishop being a cover name. In fact, he says here that it was the name of an employee and not a pseudonym.

Source: https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=1212#relPageId=54&tab=page
« Last Edit: September 25, 2018, 09:15:24 PM by Steve M. Galbraith »

Offline Mark A. Oblazney

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Re: John Newman on Veciana
« Reply #9 on: September 25, 2018, 09:28:38 PM »
?.continued from my last post.

The following was originally posted here.:
https://www.jfkassassinationforum.com/index.php/topic,144.msg2931.html#msg2931
Priscilla's Neighborhood, traces of George Bouhe, Ilya Mamantov, Thomas Devine
Clark Clifford did not attend Yale and was not Skull and Bones.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clark_Clifford

Friends in High Places: The Rise and Fall of Clark Clifford - Page 15
https://books.google.com/books?isbn=0316291625


I do find it curious that the man married to Clifford's aunt Marguerite Bowman McAdams in late
1964 was a close friend of Priscilla's first cousin, David C Davenport, CIA, and performed as driver
and bodyguard of Priscilla and Marina.
https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=60397&relPageId=146 and http://www.maryferrell.org/mffweb/archive/viewer/showDoc.do?docId=60313&relPageId=49

20 October, 2001

Without Reservations: From Harlem to the End of the Santa Fe Trail
https://books.google.com/books?isbn=0943734363


2-1/2 years later, Clark Cilfford's first cousin JoAnne McAdams
filed a lawsuit against that man, her stepfather Jerome Jerre Hastings Hasty, his friend David Davenport,
and several doctors for involuntarily committing her to the State of New Mexico mental hospital.

No one reacts to those facts because they do not know what to make of them despite the uncontested
facts that support all of that as true!

Caprio and company must read it in a 40 year old book to embrace it unconditionally.

http://www.nydailynews.com/news/national/author-85-knew-jfk-killer-oswald-article-1.1525293

Marina Oswald (left), widow of Lee Harvey Oswald, with friend Jerre Hastings (center) and Priscilla Johnson McMillan. McMillan befriended Oswald after the assassination of JFK. (JOSH REYNOLDS/JOSH REYNOLDS PHOTO)

1954 Obit:

1940 U.S. Census snippet of a household in New Trier (Winnetka)Illinois:

On April 26, 1940, Jerome A Hastings was a 29 year old man who was born in Wisconsin and was employed as a buyer at a country club. His education level was C2, two years of college. Hastings' annual income was just over $300. In 1935 his residence was in Flemington, NJ.

On May 18, Jerome Hasty was a 29 year old man who was born in Wisconsin and was employed as a officer at a country club. His education level was C1, one year of college. Hasty's annual income was just over $600. In 1935 his residence was in Carmel-by-the-Sea, CAL.

26 years later, Jerome Allen Hasty files a notice of legal change of name from Hasty to Hastings:

Um, can anyone tell me why no one has made any comments on Tom's last two posts?  Is no one interested?  He has been presenting much of these findings over the years, but to deaf ears it would seem, save the descendants of this small 'club' he writes of, whom I'm sure reads them in horror.

 

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