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Author Topic: Lame LN excuses  (Read 48194 times)

Offline John Iacoletti

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Re: Lame LN excuses
« Reply #80 on: January 11, 2020, 02:34:47 AM »
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Maybe they were foolish, but the Commission figured a barely-slowed bullet exiting the throat and traveling downward would have struck something to the immediate front of Kennedy.

Depends on where the throat shot came from and then how or if it deflected. Just presuming with no evidence that it was CE399 isn’t just automatically warranted.

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Re: Lame LN excuses
« Reply #80 on: January 11, 2020, 02:34:47 AM »


Offline Vincent Baxter

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Re: Lame LN excuses
« Reply #81 on: January 11, 2020, 03:58:47 AM »
so to use eyewitness reports from Dealey Plaza as some sort of argument against the LN theory is ridiculous.

But with the Tippit shooting, where they support the LN theory, those eyewitness reports are reliable, right?

And when exactly did I say that? From what I remember there were several contradictory statements to Tippit murder too so the same rule applies to that.
How about the fact that Oswald's jacket (verified by Marina that it was his) was found dumped nearby? The fact that Johnny Brewer saw Oswald duck into his shop when a police car went by, thought he looked suspicious so followed him to the Texas Theatre and the fact that Oswald then pulled out a revolver and fired at a cop when they came into the theatre to question him?
For a completely innocent man who had definitely not shot the President or Tippit, do you not find that peculiar behaviour?.

How about looking at the hard evidence that was actually found on the 6th floor

And by that you mean a paper bag, made from TSBD shipping materials, with several unidentifiable prints on them and one identifiable palmprint from Oswald who happened to work in the building and frequently was on the 6th floor, right?

Well, yeah that and the fact that OSWALD'S RIFLE was found hidden on the 6th floor too. Not to mention that out of the entire staff of TSBD Oswald was the only one who legged it from the building and was missing from a later head count. That he had broken his usual visiting routine by going to visit Marina the night before to allegedly pick up some "curtain rods" which he took to work with him. Also, do you not find it a bit of a coincidence that he took off his wedding ring for the first time and left it on Marina's dresser that morning?

I'd say those 6 points alone (which are the first few that comes to mind) are a fair indication of Oswald's guilt and certainly more viable than a handful of 200+ different eyewitness statements claiming otherwise.

Incidentally, whatever happened to the curtain rods in the paper bag that Oswald took into work with him that morning?

I can kind of understand how people might believe there was a second shooter or that he was part of a larger group, but with such a ridiculous amount of both hard and circumstantial evidence against Oswald, I really don't get how some people can believe he was totally innocent and had nothing whatsoever to do with the assassination.
I think I read that there has been something like 80+ assassins, 40+ groups or organisations and two to three hundred people accused of being responsible or involved in the assassination over the the years and yet not one of those have produced real credible or reliable evidence. Where as Oswald, this poor innocent man, has so many points against him.

Offline Vincent Baxter

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Re: Lame LN excuses
« Reply #82 on: January 11, 2020, 04:10:01 AM »
Furman's use of the word "probably" in the first gif is telling you that he is speculating.

The picture shown in the second gif shows Kennedy and Connally's position relative to eachother. IMO it's actually fairly accurate, in spite of the fact that it had the path of the bullet coming from behind rather than from the side of the car. 

I think what Baxter was getting at is there was no intact bullet (from the neck transit that was mostly, if not all, soft tissue) recovered in the limo and no bullet holes in the upholstery.

Of course that is what he was getting at. However, as the limo was already searched prior to Frazier and his FBI team arrived we can never be sure what was really found or not. Frazier was handed bullet fragments and told they came from the car. There isn't a court in the land that would have accepted such evidence! What in the world were those guys thinking when they decided to search the car and thus contaminate the crime scene? What plausible motive could they have had to not wait for the forensic team of the FBI?

As for there being no bullet holes in the upholstery, how do you know? Have you seen photos of the interior of the limo?

Yawn! Are we really going to go down this lame path?

How do you know JFK sustained injuries to his neck or that Governor Connally received a bullet wound to his back, wrist & thigh? Did you personally inspect their bodies? No, you didn't. Therefore it's clearly all lies and it never even happened.   ::)

« Last Edit: January 11, 2020, 04:14:26 AM by Vincent Baxter »

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Re: Lame LN excuses
« Reply #82 on: January 11, 2020, 04:10:01 AM »


Offline John Iacoletti

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Re: Lame LN excuses
« Reply #83 on: January 11, 2020, 04:44:31 AM »
How about the fact that Oswald's jacket (verified by Marina that it was his) was found dumped nearby?

It was? You mean the white jacket found by nobody-knows-who, supposedly under a car in a “nearby” parking lot (and by “nearby” you mean 2 blocks away) was the gray jacket that Marina said was an old shirt?

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The fact that Johnny Brewer saw Oswald duck into his shop when a police car went by,

He didn’t actually enter the shop, he just looked in the windows.

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thought he looked suspicious so followed him to the Texas Theatre

Brewer said “funny”, not suspicious, and he didn’t see anybody enter the theater. But is this supposed to prove that this man killed a policeman?

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and the fact that Oswald then pulled out a revolver and fired at a cop

That’s not a fact.

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when they came into the theatre to question him?

They didn’t “question him”, they conducted an illegal search and arrested Oswald for murder without a warrant or probable cause.

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For a completely innocent man who had definitely not shot the President or Tippit, do you not find that peculiar behaviour?.

“Peculiar behavior” is not evidence of murder.

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Well, yeah that and the fact that OSWALD'S RIFLE was found hidden on the 6th floor too.

“Oswald’s rifle”. LOL.

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Not to mention that out of the entire staff of TSBD Oswald was the only one who legged it from the building

Not true. Other employees including Charles Givens didn’t return after the motorcade.

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and was missing from a later head count. That he had broken his usual visiting routine by going to visit Marina the night before to allegedly pick up some "curtain rods" which he took to work with him. Also, do you not find it a bit of a coincidence that he took off his wedding ring for the first time and left it on Marina's dresser that morning?

This is all biased rhetoric, not evidence of murder.

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I'd say those 6 points alone (which are the first few that comes to mind) are a fair indication of Oswald's guilt

Of course you would.

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Incidentally, whatever happened to the curtain rods in the paper bag that Oswald took into work with him that morning?

I don’t know and neither do you. Is that supposed to be evidence of murder too?

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I can kind of understand how people might believe there was a second shooter or that he was part of a larger group, but with such a ridiculous amount of both hard and circumstantial evidence against Oswald,

You haven’t mentioned any “hard evidence” yet!

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I really don't get how some people can believe he was totally innocent and had nothing whatsoever to do with the assassination.

I don’t know if he was totally innocent or not, but you certainly haven’t proven beyond a reasonable doubt that he was guilty.

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I think I read that there has been something like 80+ assassins, 40+ groups or organisations and two to three hundred people accused of being responsible or involved in the assassination over the the years and yet not one of those have produced real credible or reliable evidence. Where as Oswald, this poor innocent man, has so many points against him.

That’s the problem with relying on Bugliosi for your information. You end up thinking lawyer rhetoric is evidence and that you can arbitrarily dismiss anything you want by just calling it not “credible”.
« Last Edit: January 11, 2020, 04:47:25 AM by John Iacoletti »

Online Martin Weidmann

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Re: Lame LN excuses
« Reply #84 on: January 11, 2020, 04:49:13 AM »
And when exactly did I say that? From what I remember there were several contradictory statements to Tippit murder too so the same rule applies to that.
How about the fact that Oswald's jacket (verified by Marina that it was his) was found dumped nearby? The fact that Johnny Brewer saw Oswald duck into his shop when a police car went by, thought he looked suspicious so followed him to the Texas Theatre and the fact that Oswald then pulled out a revolver and fired at a cop when they came into the theatre to question him?
For a completely innocent man who had definitely not shot the President or Tippit, do you not find that peculiar behaviour?.

Well, yeah that and the fact that OSWALD'S RIFLE was found hidden on the 6th floor too. Not to mention that out of the entire staff of TSBD Oswald was the only one who legged it from the building and was missing from a later head count. That he had broken his usual visiting routine by going to visit Marina the night before to allegedly pick up some "curtain rods" which he took to work with him. Also, do you not find it a bit of a coincidence that he took off his wedding ring for the first time and left it on Marina's dresser that morning?

I'd say those 6 points alone (which are the first few that comes to mind) are a fair indication of Oswald's guilt and certainly more viable than a handful of 200+ different eyewitness statements claiming otherwise.

Incidentally, whatever happened to the curtain rods in the paper bag that Oswald took into work with him that morning?

I can kind of understand how people might believe there was a second shooter or that he was part of a larger group, but with such a ridiculous amount of both hard and circumstantial evidence against Oswald, I really don't get how some people can believe he was totally innocent and had nothing whatsoever to do with the assassination.
I think I read that there has been something like 80+ assassins, 40+ groups or organisations and two to three hundred people accused of being responsible or involved in the assassination over the the years and yet not one of those have produced real credible or reliable evidence. Where as Oswald, this poor innocent man, has so many points against him.

And when exactly did I say that? From what I remember there were several contradictory statements to Tippit murder too so the same rule applies to that.

So we agree on that.  Thumb1:

How about the fact that Oswald's jacket (verified by Marina that it was his) was found dumped nearby?

Let's examine that claim a little bit closer, shall we? Yes, Marina identified the gray jacket now in evidence as belonging to Oswald, but is that really the jacket that was found under a parked car? A few things to consider there; first of all, nobody knows who actually found the jacket under the car. Captain Westbrook was directed to the jacket by the officer who allegedly found it, but in his testimony he could not say who that officer was. Secondly, when the discovery of the jacket was called in, it was described as a white jacket. One can argue that there may have been shade which made the jacket look different in color, but there is a photograph of an officer holding the jacket in plain sunlight at the carpark, which makes it bit difficult to believe that they couldn't see the difference between gray and white. Thirdly, Westbrook testified that he went on to the Texas Theater and gave the jacket to an uniformed officer, but again he could not say who that officer was. And then of course, there is no record at all of how the jacket from the carpark got to the police station and how Westbrook got it back to place it in the evidence room some two hours later. What we do know is that the initials seen on the jacket now in evidence were put on that jacket at the police station, which of course calls into question the chain of custody.

And there is more. Marina said that Oswald had two jackets. One dark and another gray. The dark jacket was later found at the TSBD. However, Frazier, testified that when he drove Oswald to Irving on Thursday he was wearing a gray jacket. Granted, his description of the jacket was not perfect, but as we know from Marina that Oswald only had one gray jacket, one has to wonder how it can be that Oswald left the roominghouse in Oak Cliff on Friday afternoon wearing his gray jacket, when he wore that same gray jacket to Irving on Thursday and was wearing his dark jacket to the TSBD on Friday morning.

So, how can you be sure that the jacket now in evidence is in fact the one they found at the carpark?

Oswald then pulled out a revolver and fired at a cop when they came into the theatre to question him?

Oswald did not fire at anybody inside the Texas Theater.

For a completely innocent man who had definitely not shot the President or Tippit, do you not find that peculiar behaviour?.

Since when makes "peculiar behaviour" somebody a killer? I've met quite a few people in my life who acted peculiar but none of them (as far as I know) killed anybody.

Well, yeah that and the fact that OSWALD'S RIFLE was found hidden on the 6th floor too.

What makes you say it was Oswald's rifle?

Not to mention that out of the entire staff of TSBD Oswald was the only one who legged it from the building and was missing from a later head count.

That's not true. Others were missing also.

That he had broken his usual visiting routine by going to visit Marina the night before to allegedly pick up some "curtain rods" which he took to work with him.

And what routine was that exactly? If I recall correctly he only went to Irving with Frazier a couple of times and had in fact not gone the previous weekend, because Marina was upset with him. Both Marina and Ruth Paine testified that they believed that Oswald had come to Irving on Thursday to make up with Marina. If that was the case, do you really think he's going to tell a 19 year old Frazier that? Far easier to tell a little white lie... if that is what happened.

Also, do you not find it a bit of a coincidence that he took off his wedding ring for the first time and left it on Marina's dresser that morning?

Nope, first of all, you do not know if it was the first time he took his wedding ring off. And secondly, if he went to Irving to make up with Marina and to persuade her to start living together again, which she did not want, he may well have thought that his marriage was over.

I'd say those 6 points alone (which are the first few that comes to mind) are a fair indication of Oswald's guilt

No. There is way too much conjecture and speculation in those points to be a fair indication of anything. It is however telling that some of these arguments are actually needed to make a highly circumstantial case against Oswald. It only shows just how weak the case actually is.

Incidentally, whatever happened to the curtain rods in the paper bag that Oswald took into work with him that morning?

I don't know and neither does anybody else. There is no record of the TSBD having been searched for curtain rods, and even if Oswald did in fact bring curtain rods, he would have had the entire morning to dispose of them. Fact is that we do not know for sure what was in the paper bag, nor do we know what happened to the content or the bag itself for that matter. On Friday evening, Frazier was given a polygraph test. He was shown the paper bag the DPD had found on the 6th floor and he denied it was the bag he had seen Oswald carry. This is day 1 information which is often simply ignored!

I can kind of understand how people might believe there was a second shooter or that he was part of a larger group, but with such a ridiculous amount of both hard and circumstantial evidence against Oswald, I really don't get how some people can believe he was totally innocent and had nothing whatsoever to do with the assassination.

I find it highly unlikely that a completely innocent and not somehow involved man could be framed in such an elaborate way, making it likely that Oswald was involved in some way.

I think I read that there has been something like 80+ assassins, 40+ groups or organisations and two to three hundred people accused of being responsible or involved in the assassination over the the years and yet not one of those have produced real credible or reliable evidence.

I do think that it is likely there was indeed a plot against Kennedy, but there is way too much speculation about who would have been involved and how it was done. Too many people have too many pet theories and it seems to me that's possibly exactly what the plotters wanted. Create so much contradictory evidence to keep everybody guessing for decades to come. The simple truth of the matter is that, if there was indeed a plot, most, if not all, of those involved have likely died by now and the chance that somebody has left a written record behind is IMO remote. And so, we keep on discussing and guessing.




« Last Edit: January 11, 2020, 04:01:49 PM by Martin Weidmann »

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Re: Lame LN excuses
« Reply #84 on: January 11, 2020, 04:49:13 AM »


Online Martin Weidmann

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Re: Lame LN excuses
« Reply #85 on: January 11, 2020, 04:55:26 AM »
Yawn! Are we really going to go down this lame path?

How do you know JFK sustained injuries to his neck or that Governor Connally received a bullet wound to his back, wrist & thigh? Did you personally inspect their bodies? No, you didn't. Therefore it's clearly all lies and it never even happened.   ::)

Yawn! Are we really going to go down this lame path?

What lame path would that be? Do you think it is normal that a crime scene is searched and being contaminated by unqualified people who later hand in some bullet fragments to Frazier and his FBI team?

How do you know JFK sustained injuries to his neck or that Governor Connally received a bullet wound to his back, wrist & thigh? Did you personally inspect their bodies? No, you didn't.

The answer is that we don't know that with any kind of certainty, because the autopsy was a mess and there is sufficient witness testimony from those who were there to know that there was a lot of shenanigans going on at Bethesda.

Therefore it's clearly all lies and it never even happened.

It's BS, but if you say so... You seem to know it all, so who am I to argue?

It is beyond a shadow of a doubt that there have been lies told in this case. For instance, the WC knew that Marina had frequently lied, prior to her testimony, yet they relied on her testimony as truthful nevertheless. Michael Paine testified that an FBI agent had shown him a backyard photo in Friday evening to determine where it was taken and Fritz confirmed on Saturday morning that they knew it was the Neeley addres from Paine, but the backyard photos were officially not found until the second search of Ruth Paine's house on Saturday afternoon. And why were FBI documents about Tippit's time of death altered? And why did the FBI claim that SA Odum had shown bullet CE399 to Tomlinson and Wright in mid-1964 when Tomlinson himself said that he was only shown a bullet once by SAC Shanklin in December 1963 and Odum said that he never had CE399 to show to anybody?.... It goes on and on.
« Last Edit: January 11, 2020, 04:04:08 PM by Martin Weidmann »

Offline Bill Chapman

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Re: Lame LN excuses
« Reply #86 on: January 11, 2020, 05:30:09 AM »
The fact that Johnny Brewer saw Oswald duck into his shop when a police car went by

Oswald didn't duck into the shop, but notably, did enter the foyer (or whatever they call it) which effectively got him off the sidewalk. Brewer said he thinks he saw him in his store in the past apparently; maybe you confused that part.
« Last Edit: January 11, 2020, 05:49:49 AM by Bill Chapman »

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Re: Lame LN excuses
« Reply #86 on: January 11, 2020, 05:30:09 AM »


Online Jerry Organ

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Re: Lame LN excuses
« Reply #87 on: January 11, 2020, 02:13:24 PM »
I would say that poor Mr. Baxter was just handed a taste of Warren Commission Derangement Syndrome. There's no known cure. :P