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Author Topic: Lame LN excuses  (Read 4268 times)

Online John Iacoletti

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Lame LN excuses
« on: January 12, 2018, 05:54:33 PM »
I've been compiling a list of lame excuses that LNers make to "explain" away conflicting or contradictory evidence in this case.  Feel free to suggest any additions.

- Howard Brennan lied at the lineup because he was scared for his family.
- Howard Brennan had the ability to estimate a man's height and weight from seeing him in a crouched position from the chest up.
- Klein's mistakenly put February on a March deposit slip
- J. M. Poe forgot to mark the shells
- Studebaker accidentally didn't photograph the bag
- The police forgot to check Oswald's pockets for hours after he was arrested
- Buell Frazier was mistaken about the length of the package
- Linnie Mae Randle was mistaken about the length of the package
- Linnie Mae Randle could see through a wall
- Essie Mae Williams just didn't notice the bag Oswald was carrying
- Arnold Rowland was lying about seeing an elderly black man
- Arnold Rowland was lying about seeing two men on the sixth floor
- So was Carolyn Walther
- So was Ruby Henderson
- Amos Euins was mistaken about seeing a colored man in the sixth floor window
- Amos Euins was mistaken about seeing a man with a bald spot in the sixth floor window
- Jack Dougherty just didn't notice the bag Oswald was carrying
- Marina Oswald was mistaken about the camera viewfinder and how many pictures she took
- The bullet holes don't match because JFK's jacket was bunched
- The lower hole in the autopsy back photo is just a spot of blood
- In every interview and affidavit Charles Givens gave for over 4 months after the assassination he forgot the detail about going back to the sixth floor to get cigarettes and seeing Oswald there.
- Bonnie Ray Williams was mistaken when he said in his affidavit that he only heard two shots
- Carolyn Walther was mistaken about seeing a man with a brown sport coat
- Richard Randolph Carr was mistaken about seeing a man in a brown sport coat in an upper floor of the TSBD
- James Worrell was mistaken about seeing a man in a dark sports jacket run out the back of the building
- The first 6 officers on the 6th floor just didn't notice the long bag
- Helen Markham didn't understand the question 6 times
- The clock at Markham's washateria was slow
- T. F. Bowley's watch was slow
- Margie Higgins' clock was slow
- The clock at Memorial Hospital was slow
- Roger Craig was lying about seeing a Mauser
- Roger Craig was lying about seeing Oswald run down the hill and get into a Nash Rambler
- So was Marvin Robinson
- So was Mrs. James Forrester
- Ed Hoffman was lying about seeing two men behind the fence break down a rifle
- Gordon Arnold was lying about being on he grassy knoll during the assassination and shots being fired from behind him
- Rose Cheramie was lying about riding in a car with two men who told her that they were going to kill the president in Dallas in just a few days
- Acquilla Clemons was mistaken about seeing two men at the scene of Tippit shooting from her front porch, one who had a pistol and was waving the other man away, neither of whom resembled Oswald.
- Frank Wright was mistaken about seeing a man standing over Tippit after he was shot and then driving away in a gray, 1951 Plymouth coupe.
- Gerald Hill was mistaken about the shells being from an automatic .38
- Gerald Hill was mistaken about there being 3 shells in Benavides' cigarette packet
- Julia Ann Mercer was mistaken about seeing two men exit a green Ford truck with what looked like a gun case and carry it up the grassy knoll at about 10:50.
- Sam Holland was mistaken about seeing a puff of smoke come out from under trees on the grassy knoll
- Bernard Haire was lying about seeing police escort a man with a white pullover shirt from the rear of the Texas Theater
- Aletha Frair was lying about seeing Lee Oswald's driver's license
- So was Lee Bozarth
- Sylvia Odio was mistaken about Oswald visiting her apartment in Houston with two hispanic men in late September, 1963
- Annie Odio was also mistaken about the same thing
- Darrell Tomlinson was mistaken about which stretcher he found a bullet on
- O.P. Wright was mistaken about what the bullet looked like
- Bardwell Odum was mistaken when he said he never saw CE399 or showed it to anybody
- Earlene Roberts was mistaken about a police car stopping and honking while Oswald was in the rooming house
- Eugene Boone was mistaken about the Mauser
- Seymour Weitzman was mistaken about the Mauser
- Marrion Baker was mistaken about the 3rd or 4th floor suspect
- Victoria Adams was mistaken about when she went down the stairs
- Carolyn Arnold was mistaken about seeing Oswald in the second floor lunchroom at 12:25
- The Parkland doctors were all mistaken about the back of the head wound
- George Burkley was mistaken about the location of the back wound
- Sibert and O?Neill were mistaken about a back wound below the shoulders, a shallow back wound, and surgery to the head area
- Rosemary Willis was mistaken about a shot coming from the grassy knoll
- Jean Hill was lying about seeing a shooter on the grassy knoll
- Bill Newman was mistaken about a shot coming from directly behind him
- Nellie Connally was mistaken about seeing JFK reacting after the first shot
- John Connally was mistaken about which shot hit him
- John Connally had a "delayed reaction" from being struck in the chest by a bullet
- Jack Ruby was demented when he said "Everything pertaining to what's happening has never come to the surface. The world will never know the true facts of what occurred, my motives. The people who had so much to gain, and had such an ulterior motive for putting me in the position I'm in, will never let the true facts come above board to the world".
- Whaley didn't record his passenger times accurately
- Oswald forgot that he was carrying around an ID card with the name he used to purchase the guns he used that day
- Oswald just happened to have 5 wallets
- The other 7 firearms experts weren't as skilled as Nicol
- The other photography experts weren't as skilled as Kirk
- The other fingerprint experts weren't as skilled as Scalice's examination of photographs 30 years later
- The post office forgot to follow their own rules about PO box delivery
- Railway Express forgot to follow their own rules about delivery of weapons
- Louis Feldsott said that Klein's purchased C2766 in June, 1962, but he really meant February, 1963.
- The police didn't record interrogations in those days
- Carl Day forgot to tell the FBI about the palmprint
- Paraffin tests aren't reliable, except when they are
- Vince Drain wrote up two versions of the report on the paper bag characteristics before the results were determined so that he could just throw away the one that was incorrect.
- Dr. Shaw at Parkland just accidentally referred to a fragment in Connally's leg as a bullet
- Oswald snuck off from work in the morning when he was supposed to be working to walk to a post office over a mile away and back in order to go buy a money order and mail an order to Klein's and then falsified his timesheet and nobody noticed.
- The police just accidentally mistook a copper-jacketed 6.5mm bullet for a .30 caliber steel-jacketed bullet
- John Hurt got drunk and just tried to call Oswald in jail to express his outrage over what Oswald had done.  Actually, no, wait, the switchboard operator just made up the whole story.
- Joseph Milteer just made a lucky guess
- W.R. (Dub) Stark was mistaken about Tippit's phone call from the record shop
- So was Louis Cortinas
- BrianBogard was lying about Oswald test driving a car
- So was Eugene Wilson
- So was Frank Rizzo
- Malcolm Price was mistaken about Oswald practicing at the Sports Drome Rifle Range
- So was Garland Slack
- Edith Whitworth was mistaken about the Oswalds coming in to the Furniture Mart and looking for a gun part
- Dial Ryder was lying about mounting a scope on an Argentinian rifle for a customer named Oswald
- Dr. Humes burned his autopsy notes because he didn't want the president's blood to fall into hands of people with peculiar ideas about the value of that type of material.  But he also burned a copy of the notes and a first draft report that had no blood on them, and he neglected to burn Boswell's autopsy notes, even though they did have blood on them.
- Seth Kantor was mistaken about seeing Jack Ruby at Parkland
- Butch Burroughs was lying when he said he sold popcorn to Oswald at 1:15
- Benavides thought the killer had a squared-off hairline because the guy's jacket collar was hiding the actual hairline
- Marina confused Nixon with LBJ (i.e. the Vice President) who was in Dallas in April '63.
- R.J. Gebelein from the Winchester-Western company really meant 1954 when he wrote to Stewart Galanor that their last production of the 6.5 mm Mannlicher-Carcano cartridges was in 1944.
- Shirley Randall was mistaken about SS asking her to get "...someone to come and wash the blood out of the car"
- The SS had to remove blood spatter evidence to get the bubble top back on.
- The SS had to remove more blood spatter evidence so they could drive the car.

added by Rick McTague:
- Dr. Evalea Glanges lied when she stated that there was a "through and through bullet hole, front to back" in the windshield of the limo.
- Dr. Malcom Perry was either mistaken or lied when he told the press 3 times on 11/22/63 that the throat wound was an entrance wound.
- Lee Bowers lied about seeing the 3 cars entering and driving in the parking lot the 20 minutes before the shooting, the men inside them, the 2 men behind the fence, a flash of light, gun smoke and hearing the last 2 shots "almost on top of each other".
- Every person who said they smelled gunsmoke in the area after the shooting is lying.
- Richard C. Dodd was lying about gunsmoke coming from the top of the hedges at the top of the grassy knoll and footprints and cigarette butts behind the fence.
- J. C. Price (atop the Terminal Annex building) was lying about the shots coming from the area near the triple underpass and seeing a man running behind the fence, through the parking lot and behind the TSBD.
- James L. Simmons lied about seeing a puff of smoke from the wooden fence and hearing shots come from that area.
- Charles Brehm lied about the skull fragment from JFK's head fly back and to the left.
- Robert Vinson was lying about seeing LHO on the CIA flight out of Dallas to Roswell.

« Last Edit: January 12, 2018, 05:57:32 PM by John Iacoletti »

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Lame LN excuses
« on: January 12, 2018, 05:54:33 PM »

Offline John Mytton

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Re: Lame LN excuses
« Reply #1 on: January 13, 2018, 01:21:30 AM »
Quote
- Howard Brennan lied at the lineup because he was scared for his family.

Brennan's first day affidavit of seeing a slender man white with a rifle in the very window where a sniper's nest with shells was found is supported by the Police Broadcast at 12:45 and proves that Brennan saw Oswald.

Quote
- Howard Brennan had the ability to estimate a man's height and weight from seeing him in a crouched position from the chest up.

Mr. BELIN. At the time you saw this man on the sixth floor, how much of the man could you see?
Mr. BRENNAN. Well, I could see at one time he came to the window and he sat sideways on the window sill. That was previous to President Kennedy getting there. And I could see practically his whole body, from his hips up. But at the time that he was firing the gun, a possibility from his belt up.


Quote
- Klein's mistakenly put February on a March deposit slip

Right back at ya, the conspirators only had one job to and they even stuffed that up!

Quote
- J. M. Poe forgot to mark the shells

The other two shells were marked and verified.

Mr. BALL. Did you make a mark?
Mr. POE. I can't swear to it; no, sir.
Mr. BALL. But there is a mark on two of these?
Mr. POE. There is a mark. I believe I put on them, but I couldn't swear to it. I couldn't make them out any more.

Quote
- Studebaker accidentally didn't photograph the bag

The bag at one time was in the building at the same time as Studebaker and his camera so if they wanted to do they had the option of placing the bag and photographing it in the sniper's nest but pure logic must be observed and that the brown paper bag must have been accidentally moved and following strict Police procedure wasn't replaced for the photo because that would be naughty.

Quote
- The police forgot to check Oswald's pockets for hours after he was arrested

You rely on a Police report to tell that you that the very same Police discovered bullets on Oswald a couple of hours later, where does that go?

Quote
- Buell Frazier was mistaken about the length of the package

Up until 12:30 Oswald's bag that he claimed contained Curtain rods, to Frazier must have been insignificant and this is reinforced by his testimony where he repeatedly says he never payed attention to the bag.

Mr. BALL - All right.
When you got in the car did you say anything to him or did he say anything to you?
Mr. FRAZIER - Let's see, when I got in the car I have a kind of habit of glancing over my shoulder and so at that time I noticed there was a package laying on the back seat, I didn't pay too much attention and I said, "What's the package, Lee?"
And he said, "Curtain rods," and I said, "Oh, yes, you told me you was going to bring some today."
That is the reason, the main reason he was going over there that Thursday afternoon when he was to bring back some curtain rods, so I didn't think any more about it when he told me that.

Mr. BALL - Did it look to you as if there was something heavy in the package?
Mr. FRAZIER - Well, I will be frank with you, I didn't pay much attention to the package because like I say before and after he told me that it was curtain rods and I didn't pay any attention to it, and he never had lied to me before so I never did have any reason to doubt his word.

Mr. BALL - Well, from the way he carried it, the way he walked, did it appear he was carrying something that had more than the weight of a paper?
Mr. FRAZIER - Well, I say, you know like I say, I didn't pay much attention to the package other than I knew he had it under his arm and I didn't pay too much attention the way he was walking because I was walking along there looking at the railroad cars and watching the men on the diesel switch them cars and I didn't pay too much attention on how he carried the package at all.

Mr. BALL - You will notice that this bag which is the colored bag, FBI Exhibit No. 10, is folded over. Was it folded over when you saw it the first time, folded over to the end?
Mr. FRAZIER - I will say I am not sure about that, whether it was folded over or not, because, like I say, I didn't pay that much attention to it.

Mr. BALL - But are you sure that his hand was at the end of the package or at the side of the package?
Mr. FRAZIER - Like I said, I remember I didn't look at the package very much, paying much attention, but when I did look at it he did have his hands on the package like that.

Mr. BALL - Mr. Frazier, we have here this Exhibit No. 364 which is a sack and in that we have put a dismantled gun. Don't pay any attention to that. Will you stand up here and put this under your arm and then take a hold of it at the side?
Now, is that anywhere near similar to the way that Oswald carried the package?
Mr. FRAZIER - Well, you know, like I said now, I said I didn't pay much attention--


Quote
- Linnie Mae Randle was mistaken about the length of the package

On the first weekend she told the FBI that the package was 3 feet long.

Quote
- Linnie Mae Randle could see through a wall

Really???, the garage was enclosed by slats.







Quote
- Essie Mae Williams just didn't notice the bag Oswald was carrying

So what?

Anyway so far from your compiled list I see the usual misrepresentations, ignorance and lies which don't seem to lead to any specific conclusion. Surely all your extensive lists of suspicious evidence must go somewhere, where? Or is your only job to create as much obfuscation as possible, so clearly you can hide your mates on Capitol Hill???

JohnM
« Last Edit: January 13, 2018, 03:26:47 AM by John Mytton »

Offline Benjamin Cole

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Re: Lame LN excuses
« Reply #2 on: January 13, 2018, 01:02:57 PM »
U discuss the gunsmoke in my Grassy Knoll as a Diversion post.

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Re: Lame LN excuses
« Reply #2 on: January 13, 2018, 01:02:57 PM »

Offline Benjamin Cole

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Re: Lame LN excuses
« Reply #3 on: January 13, 2018, 01:03:51 PM »
I discuss, that is....

Offline Ray Mitcham

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Re: Lame LN excuses
« Reply #4 on: January 13, 2018, 01:34:30 PM »
Bill Newman

First day affidavit
?I thought the shot had come from the garden directly behind me, that it was on an elevation from where I was as I was right on the curb. I do not recall looking toward the Texas School Book Depository. I looked back in the vacinity [sic] of the garden.?

FBI report

?NEWMAN first thought the President and Governor were playing some kind of a game and suddenly realized they had been shot and that he was perhaps in the line of fire because officers started running toward the arcade diectly back of him and his wife.?

Shaw trial

?Q: Now would you push the microphone aside and step down to the aerial photograph and identify that general area, just the general area from which the sounds came.
A: In my opinion, the sounds of the shots sounded as if they had come from directly behind me (indicating). I was standing near this light standard here, and I thought the shots were coming from back here, and apparently everybody else did because they all ran in that direction. ?

?Newman: (Indicating) ?This is all the grassy knoll area, and it was my opinion or my thought from the noise, that the shots were coming from directly behind in here. I would say that the shots could have been fired from here, but the further this way you go, the less likely it would have been. ?
BY MR. DYMOND:
Q: I see. Now from the parking lot area behind the grassy knoll -- I am referring to the area north of the building here (indicating) --
A: Yes, sir.



Behind him. Not from his left side.

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Re: Lame LN excuses
« Reply #4 on: January 13, 2018, 01:34:30 PM »

Offline Steve Barber

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Re: Lame LN excuses
« Reply #5 on: January 13, 2018, 02:07:31 PM »
Bill Newman

First day affidavit
?I thought the shot had come from the garden directly behind me, that it was on an elevation from where I was as I was right on the curb. I do not recall looking toward the Texas School Book Depository. I looked back in the vacinity [sic] of the garden.?

FBI report

?NEWMAN first thought the President and Governor were playing some kind of a game and suddenly realized they had been shot and that he was perhaps in the line of fire because officers started running toward the arcade diectly back of him and his wife.?

Shaw trial

?Q: Now would you push the microphone aside and step down to the aerial photograph and identify that general area, just the general area from which the sounds came.
A: In my opinion, the sounds of the shots sounded as if they had come from directly behind me (indicating). I was standing near this light standard here, and I thought the shots were coming from back here, and apparently everybody else did because they all ran in that direction. ?

?Newman: (Indicating) ?This is all the grassy knoll area, and it was my opinion or my thought from the noise, that the shots were coming from directly behind in here. I would say that the shots could have been fired from here, but the further this way you go, the less likely it would have been. ?
BY MR. DYMOND:
Q: I see. Now from the parking lot area behind the grassy knoll -- I am referring to the area north of the building here (indicating) --
A: Yes, sir.



Behind him. Not from his left side.

I urge you to look at the "Trial of Lee Harvey Oswald" the mock trial in London, with Gerry Spence and Vince Bugliosi as trial attorneys.   Take a look at where Mr. Newman indicated where he was referring to when asked where on the map of Dealey Plaza he thought the shots came from.  It wasn't to his right by a long shot.  It was to his LEFT.  He highlighted the area with a marker.

Online Martin Weidmann

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Re: Lame LN excuses
« Reply #6 on: January 13, 2018, 02:11:54 PM »
I urge you to look at the "Trial of Lee Harvey Oswald" the mock trial in London, with Gerry Spence and Vince Bugliosi as trial attorneys.   Take a look at where Mr. Newman indicated where he was referring to when asked where on the map of Dealey Plaza he thought the shots came from.  It wasn't to his right by a long shot.  It was to his LEFT.  He highlighted the area with a marker.

Which only shows that witness recollection may change as more time passes by.

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Re: Lame LN excuses
« Reply #6 on: January 13, 2018, 02:11:54 PM »

Offline Steve Barber

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Re: Lame LN excuses
« Reply #7 on: January 13, 2018, 02:20:17 PM »
Which only shows that witness recollection may change as more time passes by.

If Bill Newman were to walk up to you and slap you on the face and point to you where he thought the shots came from, you'd tell him he is wrong.  That's a typical conspiracy nutter.  If you listen to Bill Newman describe the reason he thought the shot came from the area he referred to as "the garden", it isn't because he thought it sounded like it, it was because of how the president reacted during the fatal shot.  Haven't you seen the Newman family interview with Stephen Fagin at The Sixth Floor Museum in 2013? It was broadcast on C-Span and is available on YouTube.  As many times as the Newman's have been interviewed and contacted over the years, I highly doubt that the passage of time has changed Bill or Gayle Newman's opinions on what they witnessed that day.  It stays fresh on their minds because according to Bill, they get at least one letter a week, and they have stuck to their stories over the past 54 years without changing anything. 
« Last Edit: January 13, 2018, 02:26:58 PM by Steve Barber »

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Re: Lame LN excuses
« Reply #7 on: January 13, 2018, 02:20:17 PM »

Online Martin Weidmann

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Re: Lame LN excuses
« Reply #8 on: January 13, 2018, 02:34:56 PM »
If Bill Newman were to walk up to you and slap you on the face and point to you where he thought the shots came from, you'd tell him he is wrong.  That's a typical conspiracy nutter.  If you listen to Bill Newman describe the reason he thought the shot came from the area he referred to as "the garden", it isn't because he thought it sounded like it, it was because of how the president reacted during the fatal shot.  Haven't you seen the Newman family interview with Stephen Fagin at The Sixth Floor Museum in 2013? It was broadcast on C-Span and is available on YouTube.

If Bill Newman were to walk up to you and slap you on the face and point to you where he thought the shots came from, you'd tell him he is wrong.  That's a typical conspiracy nutter.

You clearly just want to hear what your bias tells you, you want to hear.

There is a clear contradiction between what Newman said in his first day affidavit (which is likely why the WC did not call him to testify) and what he said 13 years later as well as in 2013.

The contradiction can be explained by the fact that, as time goes by, people's memory plays tricks on them, whether you like it or not. 



Offline Duncan MacRae

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Re: Lame LN excuses
« Reply #9 on: January 13, 2018, 02:43:10 PM »
I urge you to look at the "Trial of Lee Harvey Oswald" the mock trial in London, with Gerry Spence and Vince Bugliosi as trial attorneys.   Take a look at where Mr. Newman indicated where he was referring to when asked where on the map of Dealey Plaza he thought the shots came from.  It wasn't to his right by a long shot.  It was to his LEFT.  He highlighted the area with a marker.


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Re: Lame LN excuses
« Reply #9 on: January 13, 2018, 02:43:10 PM »

 

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