Users Currently Browsing This Topic:
0 Members

Author Topic: Dr. E. Forrest Chapman  (Read 3697 times)

Online John Corbett

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1374
Re: Dr. E. Forrest Chapman
« Reply #84 on: Yesterday at 05:35:37 PM »
You really should find a niche on a religion forum, because so many of your statements are right out of the atheist playbook. Either atheism or religion can be "faith based" in the sense of an entirely mindless adoption of a position for reasons having little or nothing to do with the ontological truth of that position. It is the atheist playbook that religion is entirely faith-based - i.e., nothing but delusional or "magical" thinking. In fact, serious believers - such as myself - have evaluated a vast body of scientific, anecdotal and testimonial evidence, as well as philosophical and theological arguments, in arriving at convictions that can be described as religious. The "leap of faith" in the direction of religion is not markedly different from the "leap of faith" toward atheism because the ontological truth of either position cannot be known in this lifetime. The comparison between a believer and unbeliever is simply a matter of how much diligence the individual has exercised in reaching his or her convictions and the depth of those convictions. Once one has reached a set of religious convictions and is inside the religious framework, then the term "faith" is indeed used in a slightly different and uniquely religious sense that is something along the lines of "internal knowledge."

At this point, the three-shot scenario is not unlike a religious conviction. The ontological truth will never be known. What you call "an overwhelming preponderance of the evidence" others who are equally informed do not find so overwhelming. I do not find it overwhelming. When no one can tell us when the first shot was even fired, and there is no physical evidence apart from a shell with an oddly shaped primer indentation and a dented lip, to refer to "overwhelming" evidence sounds very much like the claim of a religious zealot. You find the evidence sufficient to reach some level of conviction, while others find it sufficient to reach a different conviction or end up holding an "agnostic" position on the issue. That's just the reality - it's a matter of how one interprets the evidence.

Your persistence in calling Jack a troll is exactly what a religious zealot or militant atheist does. "Only I know God, and if you disagree with me and [my interpretation of] the Bible you're going to hell!" "If you persist in believing there is a deity, you're just a delusional magic thinker!" The number of shots fired by Oswald is an open issue as to which intelligent and diligent people can hold different views. There is no certainty and at this point can never be. Before reading Phantom Shot, I had never considered the possibility of only two shots. Having read it and looked into the issue more deeply myself, it is a theory that has a lot of merit. What further underscores that your position is akin to a religious one is that, ironically, the two-shot scenario doesn't challenge the LN narrative at all! It is only a threat to your "dogma." The Great Schism of 1054 AD that forever split the Eastern Orthodox Church from the Catholic Church was largely over the filioque - i.e., whether the Holy Spirit "proceeds" from only the Father or both the Father and the Son. It sounds completely goofy to me, but this "three shot or two shot" debate is strikingly similar: did three shots (orthodoxy!) or only two (heresy!) proceed from Oswald's rifle in the religion we call the LN narrative?

You make the assumption I am an atheist. If atheism could answer all my questions, I would probably be an atheist. It can't so I'm not. I am agnostic. Mankind has been pondering this question for as long as humans have had the ability to ponder. To the best of my knowledge, no one has come up with a provable answer. The late Dr. Carl Sagain, who was also an agnostic, said, "I don't want to believe. I want to know.". That pretty much sums up my position on religion.

As it applies to the JFKA, I KNOW that Oswald was the assassin. I BELIEVE he was acting on his own behalf but because I can't prove a negative, I can't logically say he had no accomplices. Only that I believe that to be highly unlikely. Ditto for the two shot scenario. There is ample, highly compelling evidence of three shots, both forensic and earwitness accounts. The WC recognized the theoretical possibility that Oswald could have started with an empty shell in the chamber and only fired two shots, but I find that to be highly unlikely.

Online Charles Collins

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4498
Re: Dr. E. Forrest Chapman
« Reply #85 on: Yesterday at 05:51:51 PM »
This whole thread has been suspect from the get go. The true purpose has been culminating in your recent posts of the pictures of shells and your explanation for your actions and posts. No one needed one more picture with your ridiculous lines on them. It could not be more obvious how deceitful this has become. 

The difference between you making a claim and expressing an opinion is you having been told how stupid it was to think the shells would have the exact same dent in the exact same place on so many shells and the unfired cartridge as a result of the rear bridge or any location for that matter. The rear bridge could never have caused the dent in CE 543, and you have not shown where it was even remotely a possibility. A picture of the dent in CE 543 needs to show the dimple in the middle of the dent or would that cast this whole bizarre nonsense in a bad light. Where is the top-down picture of the shell you were claiming was CE 543. That is OK, it doesn’t matter; it is only a few pages back in the thread. By your own statements regarding the dent, it is either flared or not a picture of CE 543.


Here’s another photo of the top view as requested. I made it into an animated GIF to show conclusively that there simply is no flare on the mouth of CE 543. The blinking yellow circle is intended to show that the rim of the mouth is still round with the exception of the dented in section.



The side view posted previously with the parallel yellow lines shows that the neck of CE 543 still has parallel sides. This is meant to show that there simply is no flare on the neck of CE 543.

Offline Lance Payette

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1502
Re: Dr. E. Forrest Chapman
« Reply #86 on: Today at 01:57:04 AM »
You make the assumption I am an atheist. If atheism could answer all my questions, I would probably be an atheist. It can't so I'm not. I am agnostic. Mankind has been pondering this question for as long as humans have had the ability to ponder. To the best of my knowledge, no one has come up with a provable answer. The late Dr. Carl Sagain, who was also an agnostic, said, "I don't want to believe. I want to know.". That pretty much sums up my position on religion.

No, I don't assume you're an atheist. I say that your method of arguing your LN position is consistently the same as the internet atheists' method of arguing theirs.

As applied to religion, Carl Sagan's statement is unworthy of a serious thinker. Sagan in fact said some remarkably shallow things. I would love to "know" too, but we cannot know the ontological truth of something like the existence or nonexistence of a deity because the answer, whether yes or no, must be found outside the human frame of reference. The domain of science does not extend beyond the natural order. All we can do is inform ourselves as diligently and thoroughly as possible and arrive at some level of conviction. That conviction, be it theistic or atheistic, cannot possibly be free of all doubt and cannot possibly rise to the level of knowledge. Agnosticism is fine if one has diligently and thoroughly investigated the issue and concluded it is impossible to reach any level of conviction one way or the other - but only if one has diligently and thoroughly investigated the issue. Otherwise, a claim of agnosticism is just a cop-out: "The existence or nonexistence of a deity cannot be known with certainty, and therefore I don't concern myself with the issue and call myself an agnostic." Sagan distinguished his "I want to know" from "blind faith" - but only mindless theism or atheism is a matter of blind faith, so Sagan was guilty of setting up a false dichotomy. Famed New Atheist biologist Richard Dawkins makes precisely the same mistake, having so little understanding of the religious position that he equates all religious belief to mindless blind faith. One can certainly say "I don't think the answer can be known, so I don't bother with the question" - but this is not a true agnostic position and, if certain religions are true, could have unpleasant eternal consequences; indeed, it could have unpleasant eternal consequences even if some species of atheism are true. Hence, I believe the quest for convictions is one of the central purposes of my life.

Quote
As it applies to the JFKA, I KNOW that Oswald was the assassin. I BELIEVE he was acting on his own behalf but because I can't prove a negative, I can't logically say he had no accomplices. Only that I believe that to be highly unlikely. Ditto for the two shot scenario. There is ample, highly compelling evidence of three shots, both forensic and earwitness accounts. The WC recognized the theoretical possibility that Oswald could have started with an empty shell in the chamber and only fired two shots, but I find that to be highly unlikely.

No, you have a high level of conviction that Oswald was the assassin. Your claim of knowledge is also frequently encountered on religion forums, where folks claim "knowledge" when in fact what they are expressing is a high level of conviction. Typically, it is believers who do this, as though their God might be offended if they acknowledged even a kernel of honest (and unavoidable) doubt. Many CTers have a high level of conviction in the opposite direction. Since you are watering down your assessment of the two-shot scenario to "highly unlikely," on what basis is Jack Nessan a troll for defending that position? The fact is - and it's quite striking - that much of the JFKA debate is conducted at a quasi-religious level, not a search-for-historical-truth level.
« Last Edit: Today at 02:02:34 AM by Lance Payette »

Online John Corbett

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1374
Re: Dr. E. Forrest Chapman
« Reply #87 on: Today at 02:09:27 AM »

No, you have a high level of conviction that Oswald was the assassin.

Gee, it couldn't be because all the evidence points to that conclusion.

I agree with what Vincent Bugliosi said. People who don't think Oswald was the assassin are either ignorant of the evidence of his guilt or they are just silly.