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91
JFK Assassination Plus General Discussion And Debate / Re: The First Shot
« Last post by Zeon Mason on June 02, 2026, 09:33:51 PM »
At Z255, although SS agents are looking back at the TSBD, there is one man in backseat of the car  looking forward and smiling What? 😳

92
He was only asked for his opinion.

Opinions of non-expert testimony is only allowable if it can reasonably concluded from what a witness observed. McLain did not observe the shooting.

Federal Rule of Evidence 701 (Lay Opinion Testimony)
Under FRE 701, a non‑expert witness (a “lay witness”) may give an opinion if it is:

Rationally based on the witness’s perception (what they personally saw, heard, or experienced) LII / Legal Information Institute+1.

Helpful to clearly understanding the witness’s testimony or to determining a fact in issue LII / Legal Information Institute.

Not based on scientific, technical, or other specialized knowledge — that type of opinion must be given by an expert under FRE 702 LII / Legal Information Institute+2.

For example, a witness might say, “The man looked angry when he saw the victim” or “The car seemed to be going too fast for the wet road” — these are admissible because they are grounded in firsthand observation and helpful to the jury uslawexplained.com.

What’s Not Allowed
Opinions that rely on specialized training, technical methods, or professional standards (e.g., “This handwriting is forged” without expert analysis) are not lay opinions and must be given by an expert www.forensisgroup.com+1.

Special Caution: “Human Lie Detector” Testimony
In criminal trials, courts are especially wary of testimony that functions as a human lie detector — for example, a witness saying, “I think the defendant is lying” about a specific statement. Such testimony is generally inadmissible because it undermines the jury’s role in assessing credibility United States Court of Appeals for the Armed Forces.

State Law
Most states follow a version of FRE 701 in their own rules of evidence. Ohio’s rules mirror this framework, so the same principles apply in state criminal trials.

Bottom line: Lay witness opinions are allowed in criminal trials if they are rationally based on firsthand perception, helpful to the jury, and not disguised as expert analysis. However, certain types of opinion — especially those implying truthfulness or falsity about specific statements — are excluded to protect the jury’s role in credibility determinations
93
Hey, could you find a Gumby doll and figure out how Govnr Connally was sitting on the jump seat and which way his legs were positioned and how he was likely holding his hat during the Z film sequence and try out Andrew’s twisted pretzel position for JC at Z270?

I'd say that last picture is a fairly accurate representation of JFK's position in the limo. Assuming the side of the car is to scale, it does give a fairly good representation of JFK when he was shot in the back.

If you have another doll, I would just cut off the lower legs to allow it to fit and turn JBC's shoulders about where you think he was at Z222. You don't need the lower legs for this exercise.
94
All of those would be wonderful, but would they realistically be EXPECTED in a tight, compartmentalized Mafia hit of the POTUS - a hit that could literally destroy the organization if it went awry? Have a little respect for professionalism of the Mafia, willya? The American and Sicilian Mafia are estimated to have carried out thousands of successful hits over the past century. My expectation for the JFKA would be no more evidence than we have.

Alas, all of the Mafia-did-it books are not available on Kindle, so I'm going to have to load up on hard copies.

I know Larry Schnapf and Pat Speer lean toward the Mafia. I did a search on the Ed Forum and found what I expected: The Mafia gets little attention, and then only in the context of being a bit player in the elaborate and completely unbelievable LBJ, CIA and Everyone Else In the World Except Jackie and Hickey Conspiracy. The CT community simply cannot abide a conspiracy as dull and unsatisfying as the Mafia - just the Mafia.

There is as much evidence of Mafia involvement as there is for any other entity other than Oswald which is to say there is zero evidence. If you want to hypothesize a conspiracy for which you can find no evidence, that's your privilege. I choose to base my beliefs on real evidence.
95
Well I would suggest that if Oswald was the shooter and he was  part of a conspiracy, there were no plans for Oswald to be the patsy because surely there would have been a conspirator cameraman on the ground filming or getting a zoomed in photo of Oswald’s face as he stuck the rifle out the window.

Perhaps, but now we have a cameraman who is part of the conspiracy and is going to have to survive scrutiny of himself. I ran this past Phoebe Marcello, Carlos' cousin quadruply removed, and she said "Nah, I think they had Oswald sufficiently framed that photos would have been overkill. 'Overkill' - get it? Hee, hee, hee."

Quote
So if it’s a conspiracy, then Oswald was not the shooter although he might have been used by the conspirators after they found out he was kind if a kook who had taken pictures of himself with a rifle and revolver.

I will agree that Oswald being a shooter in a Mafia conspiracy that he thinks is a pro-Castro conspiracy bumps up against some of the problems I suggested with the LN narrative - he simply doesn't act like there is anything of that sort on his mind while he's in Irving or on the morning of the JFKA. On the other hand, to be the perfect Mafia patsy, he has to be a shooter who knows nothing except that he's in a pro-Castro conspiracy. In this scenario, it doesn't matter if he lives or dies. As I understand Orr's theory, Marcello recruits Oswald through the Dutz Murret connection and makes him an offer he can't refuse - but then Oswald knows too much and can't be allowed to live. I absolutely refuse to believe the Mafia would entrust the future of the entire organization to ... JACK RUBY?

Quote
That’s my Centrist perspective
 
Now who would know about Oswald’s rifle and his photos and that he had shot at Walker and all kinds of things helpful to the WC narrative ?That  would be Marina, the innocent naive  USSR girl who had coincidentally met all the other CIA defectors and of course said nothing at all to her relative KGB officer.

But we are not allowed to question poor little Marina , the one who in one WC testimony can barely speak English or understand it and then in other WC testimony is speaking English fluently and in great detail without a stumble. It’s a Miracle! Certainly the new husband is happy. However , George DeCIA spy , best friend of Oswald is depressed and finally reaches out to George H.W. Bush to get advice. George H.W.B sends a letter to George DeM and George DeSpy decides he should talk to a reporter but alas, about an hour before he is supposed to meet and share, he decides to put a shotgun in his mouth and pull the trigger.

Oh well nothing to see here folks. It’s nothing because “Oswald is our man” and “this case is cinched”.

That’s my CT perspective.

I could be wrong, but isn't most of Marina's WC testimony via an interpreter - so we're not really reading her words? I have a really hard time picturing Our Little Marina as being up to anything really nefarious in either the USSR or US. If she was, she deserves ten Academy Awards. I think I've posted this before, but it's an article with some excellent photos about Our Little Marina's English studies at the University of Michigan after the JFKA: https://heritage.umich.edu/stories/the-assassins-widow/.
96


I measured it (centerline of the model to edge of outside of the limo) at 3/4’ from the outside edge of the limo. That scales to be 18”.


I had previously ground away part of the model to simulate having the side of his torso against the inside edge of the side of the limo. Sorry about the sideways orientation. It’s apparently the image hosting site’s issue.




Here it is sitting in the limo.



Hey, could you find a Gumby doll and figure out how Govnr Connally was sitting on the jump seat and which way his legs were positioned and how he was likely holding his hat during the Z film sequence and try out Andrew’s twisted pretzel position for JC at Z270?
97
That's for the people hypothesizing a conspiracy to figure out. But since I'm in a generous mood, I'll give you a little help.

Physical evidence of one or more gunshots from a location other than the sniper's nest.

An eyewitness to a second gunman.

Wiretaps showing communications between the plotters and Oswald. Not an unrealistic expectation if you suspect the Mafia.

An informant.

That's just off the top of my head.

You'll have to take if from here.

All of those would be wonderful, but would they realistically be EXPECTED in a tight, compartmentalized Mafia hit of the POTUS - a hit that could literally destroy the organization if it went awry? Have a little respect for professionalism of the Mafia, willya? The American and Sicilian Mafia are estimated to have carried out thousands of successful hits over the past century. My expectation for the JFKA would be no more evidence than we have.

Alas, all of the Mafia-did-it books are not available on Kindle, so I'm going to have to load up on hard copies.

I know Larry Schnapf and Pat Speer lean toward the Mafia. I did a search on the Ed Forum and found what I expected: The Mafia gets little attention, and then only in the context of being a bit player in the elaborate and completely unbelievable LBJ, CIA and Everyone Else In the World Except Jackie and Hickey Conspiracy. The CT community simply cannot abide a conspiracy as dull and unsatisfying as the Mafia - just the Mafia.
98
Well I would suggest that if Oswald was the shooter and he was  part of a conspiracy, there were no plans for Oswald to be the patsy because surely there would have been a conspirator cameraman on the ground filming or getting a zoomed in photo of Oswald’s face as he stuck the rifle out the window.

That’s my LN / perspective.

So if it’s a conspiracy, then Oswald was not the shooter although he might have been used by the conspirators after they found out he was kind of a kook whom had taken pictures of himself with a rifle and revolver while holding magazines.

That’s my Centrist / Skeptic perspective
 
Now who would know about Oswald’s rifle and his photos and that he had shot at Walker and all kinds of things helpful to the WC narrative ?That  would be Marina, the innocent naive  USSR girl who had coincidentally met all the other CIA defectors and of course said nothing at all to her relative , a KGB officer no less.

But we are not allowed to question the veracity of poor little Marina , the one who in one WC testimony can barely speak English or understand it and then in other WC testimony is speaking English fluently and in great detail without a stumble. It’s a Miracle! Certainly the new husband was helpful.  However , George DeCIA spy , best friend of Oswald is depressed and finally reaches out to George H.W. Bush to get advice. George H.W.B sends a letter to George DeM and George DeM  decides he should talk to a reporter but alas, about an hour before he is supposed to meet and share, he decides to put a shotgun in his mouth and pull the trigger.

Oh well nothing to see here folks. It’s nothing because “Oswald is our man” and “this case is cinched”.

That’s my CT / Cynic perspective.
99
It's hard to tell with the circles covering JFK but I'm estimating you have JFK's head to far inside. With his side against the side of the limo, I estimate the centerline of his head would only be about 9 inches inside that. I base that on my on body which is broader than JFK. I outweigh him by about 70 lbs. My ballpark estimate is the centerline of JFK's head would be at most 2 ft. from the outside edge of the limo.

I think I have that same model car although mine is not stamped Luckydiecast. I can't quite make out what the script is identifying the manufacturer but it is stamped Made in China. I've had mine about 10 years. My experience with model trains tells me manufacturers will often sell or duplicate the molds among themselves and it is not unusual to see that same item produced by two or more companies. It's very easy to change the embossed label. Mine indicates it was manufactured under license number 24048 if that means anything. The jump seats on mine fold down and then can be pushed forward completely out of the way.



I measured it (centerline of the model to edge of outside of the limo) at 3/4’ from the outside edge of the limo. That scales to be 18”.


I had previously ground away part of the model to simulate having the side of his torso against the inside edge of the side of the limo. Sorry about the sideways orientation. It’s apparently the image hosting site’s issue.




Here it is sitting in the limo.

100
If that’s Lovelady then its doubtful that he and Shelly can do all they said they did and get back to the west.side rear door entrance in time to be the 2 unidentified men that Baker and Truly met 50 secs later at the rear elevators 1st floor.

But it can’t be Oswald there on the steps 20
sec post shots either because everyone has been gradually led to believe that the Altgens 6 photo at Z255 must be Lovelady even though no one has replicated that weird position and photograph it such that the lower shirt sleeve (with no hand !?) appears IN FRONT of whom ever the black guy is standing at the base of the steps. ( it’s either Roy Lewis or the big guy named Carl something).

    I agree. That was Not Lovelady & Shelley that were back by the freight elevator when Truly and Baker were back there. There is Nothing to support that claim.
   
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