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71
How did Shelley and Lovelady get there within that time, you ask? By walking back into the building from the front steps where they were watching the motorcade?

How obvious is that!
They walked from the front steps, through the lobby, and towards the back of the first floor.
A distance of approximately 80 feet.
Strolling along at 3mph for 20 seconds covers 88 feet.

So, let's reverse engineer that.

Time after shots
 (seconds)

      60          Adams hits first floor where she sees Shelley and Lovelady as she races to the back door.
      40          Shelley and Lovelady enter front lobby door
      25          In Darnell we see Lovelady on the steps and Shelley stood at the bottom of the steps

That leaves Shelley and Lovelady 15 seconds to get from their positions in Darnell to the front door of the building.
There is plenty of time for Shelley and Lovelady to make it to the location Adams saw them within 60 seconds of the shooting.
However, how can those who have mistakenly identified Shelley and Lovelady as the men on the extension make this work?
72
How did Shelley and Lovelady get there within that time, you ask? By walking back into the building from the front steps where they were watching the motorcade?
73
I would recommend Oswald’s Game by Jean Davison, Oswald’s Tale by Norman Mailer, Case Closed by Gerald Posner, With Malice by Dale Myers and Accessories After the Fact by Sylvia Meagher.
74
We appreciate your candor.

Well, your list is actually the most balanced list of the lists submitted by WC apologists in this thread. You deserve credit for including Titovets' book in your list. Epstein's book argues for Oswald's guilt but allows that Oswald may have acted in concert with, or at the behest of, the Soviets. You were the only WC defender who could muster up enough objectivity to at least include one anti-WC/pro-Oswald book in your list.
In post #44, the Supposed WC Apologist enthusiastically recommended Breach of Trust: How the Warren Commission Failed the Nation and Why, to wit:

Now that I'm rereading it, I cannot believe that no one has mentioned Breach of Trust: How the Warren Commission Failed the Nation and Why by Gerald McKnight. McKnight was a serious academic, and this book is widely regarded as one of the two or three absolute best CT tomes. McKnight doesn't go off on any wild CT tangents but simply provides a pretty devastating alternative perspective on the WC and the events swirling around it.

What makes JFKA discussions tedious and unproductive is that virtually everyone is a one-dimensional quasi-religious fanatic who has planted his flag in the LN narrative or some CT alternative and feels compelled to demonize anyone who declines to join his church. Hence, one who is by no means a WC Apologist must be characterized as such so this convenient strawman may be demonized. The JFKA community on both sides simply cannot deal with someone who refuses to be pigeonholed because he has no great emotional involvment in JFK or who killed him. The dynamics are exactly those of the many, many religious debates in which I have participated over the decades.

For the record, your Supposed WC Apologist also just finished rereading William Matson Law's highly readable In the Eye of History in connection with revisiting the truly puzzling death of William Bruce Pitzer. The interviews are of uneven quality - O'Neill and Sibert, who both strongly disavowed the SBT, are excellent - but anyone with a semi-open mind cannot avoid the nagging suspicion that the orthodox LN narrative is not the full story. I, however, have no deep emotional need to plant my flag in any particular notion of what the missing pieces may be; as with all areas of weirdness in which I am involved, I can live with the ambiguity and uncertainty. I don't need a JFKA church.
75
JFK Assassination Discussion & Debate / Re: The First Shot
« Last post by Dan O'meara on July 23, 2026, 10:52:51 PM »
Not all. I certainly agree there was no early missed shot.  So did the Connallys.  The problem with your scenario is that it conflicts with the Connally’s clear recollections that JBC was not struck in the back by the first shot..

Ironically, this is the same single witness Corbett bases the entirety of his opinion on.
A man who went into shock after suffering a life-threatening, massively traumatic gunshot injury through the torso.
There is copious research highlighting the effects such a traumatic injury can have on the memory recall of the victims.
There is ample evidence that Connally is suffering from a number of these effects.
He is possibly the most unreliable witness to the shooting in Dealey Plaza.
Researchers like yourself and Corbett treat him as if he were a bystander recalling what he witnessed. At no point do either of you acknowledge how the trauma and shock of his life-threatening injury may have affected his recall of events.

76
    The Darnell/Couch film images that show Officer Baker running across the Island, have been given a time stamp of ":20 seconds after the kill shot". Do you agree with that :20 second time stamp?
    That :20 time stamp jams up Shelley and Lovelady being at the TSBD 1st floor freight elevator at Under 1:00 after the kill shot. This "under 1:00 minute" is when they allegedly were seen by Adams when she reached the TSBD 1st floor. The faster You have Adams reaching the TSBD 1st floor, you then are placing Shelley and Lovelady at that same 1st floor location even quicker. And Adams makes no mention of Shelley and Lovelady being in motion, as if Shelley and Lovelady were just arriving when she saw them. They were in position on the 1st floor when she saw them. The still frame you have posted shows Shelley being on the ground in front of the TSBD. This would be at :25 seconds after the kill shot, leaving LESS than :35 seconds for Shelley to go from the ground: (1) up through the very crowded TSBD front steps, (2) through the crowded TSBD Lobby, (3) unlocking the Closed Gate at the desk, (4) traveling across the TSBD 1st Floor, (5) arriving at the freight elevator. Again, ALL of this in Under :35 seconds. And, ALL of this is if Shelley IMMEDIATELY left his position on the still frame you posted. To me, this is far to fast for Shelley to do ALL of this largely due to his NOT being in motion on the still frame you have posted. The Shelley figure is at a Dead Stop and does Not look to be in any kind of a hurry. The same goes for Lovelady. The Tick/Tock here does does fit if you buy into the :20 seconds after the kill shot being tied to Officer Baker running across the Island. That :20 second timestamp is when the Shelley and Lovelady clock begins running. 
    This is why I continue to encourage you to do a thread on the subject of Shelley and Lovelady going through the TSBD front door. This is your very own unique idea, but it does have time stamping issues that You need to iron out.

Let's do something very few people ever think to actually do - let's take the WC testimony of Vicki Adams at face value.
She comes across as an intelligent and articulate woman in the transcript of her testimony, which is confirmed by the "lost Interview" she did with Mark Lane and someone else, where we hear Vicki in her own words (and she again confirms she did inded see Shelley and Lovelady as she raced out of the building).

Mr. BELIN - How long do you think it took you. to get from the window to the bottom of the stairs on the first floor?
Miss ADAMS - I would say no longer than a minute at the most.


Mr. BELIN - When you got to the bottom of the first floor, did you see anyone there as you entered the first floor from the stairway?
Miss ADAMS - Yes, sir.
Mr. BELIN - Who did you see?
Miss ADAMS - Mr. Bill Shelley and Billy Lovelady.


She is saying it took her no longer than 60 seconds to get to the first floor (this seems to be a maximum estimation) and when she got there she saw Shelley and Lovelady.
How did Shelley and Lovelady get there within that time?
Remember, even if it's just as a thought experiment, that we are taking Adams' testimony at face value - how did Shelley and Lovelady get there within that time?
77
JFK Assassination Discussion & Debate / Re: The First Shot
« Last post by Andrew Mason on July 23, 2026, 10:16:38 PM »

Like all true Nutters, you labour under the delusion that what you think is a fact, just because you think it.
There was no early shot.
Both men were shot through at z222/z223.
This is based solely on the mountain of valid evidence pointing to this conclusion.
Your opinion is based on a single witness.
Not all. I certainly agree there was no early missed shot.  So did the Connallys.  The problem with your scenario is that it conflicts with the Connally’s clear recollections that JBC was not struck in the back by the first shot..
78
Obviously, Adams & Styles squeaked out the rear exit just before Truly & Baker ran in...

This is really bizarre.
I completely agree that Adams and Styles "squeaked out the rear exit" just before Truly and Baker arrived at the area near the freight elevators on the first floor.
The Dillard picture proves Adams had left her position by the fourth floor window within 15 seconds of the final shot.
She stated that before the limo had even reached the underpass she had decided to get down there.
She consistently insisted that she ran all the way down, placing her on the first floor within 60 seconds of the shot, if not sooner.

The thing I don't understand is this, Brian, and maybe you can invent something else to account for this:
When Adams hit the first floor within 60 seconds of the shooting she saw Shelley and Lovelady not far from the elevators as she raced by. She even tried to interact with them but they didn't respond.
Truly and Baker arrived at the same location seconds later where Baker reported two white men (who can only be Shelley and Lovelady) hanging around that area.
How is it possible for the two men you claim to be Shelley and Lovelady on the Elm Street extension, get to the area near the elevators on the first floor where they were observed by Adams and Baker, within 60 seconds of the shooting?
Do you even realise how you are contradicting yourself?

    The Darnell/Couch film images that show Officer Baker running across the Island, have been given a time stamp of ":20 seconds after the kill shot". Do you agree with that :20 second time stamp?
    That :20 time stamp jams up Shelley and Lovelady being at the TSBD 1st floor freight elevator at Under 1:00 after the kill shot. This "under 1:00 minute" is when they allegedly were seen by Adams when she reached the TSBD 1st floor. The faster You have Adams reaching the TSBD 1st floor, you then are placing Shelley and Lovelady at that same 1st floor location even quicker. And Adams makes no mention of Shelley and Lovelady being in motion, as if Shelley and Lovelady were just arriving when she saw them. They were in position on the 1st floor when she saw them. The still frame you have posted shows Shelley being on the ground in front of the TSBD. This would be at :25 seconds after the kill shot, leaving LESS than :35 seconds for Shelley to go from the ground: (1) up through the very crowded TSBD front steps, (2) through the crowded TSBD Lobby, (3) unlocking the Closed Gate at the desk, (4) traveling across the TSBD 1st Floor, (5) arriving at the freight elevator. Again, ALL of this in Under :35 seconds. And, ALL of this is if Shelley IMMEDIATELY left his position on the still frame you posted. To me, this is far to fast for Shelley to do ALL of this largely due to his NOT being in motion on the still frame you have posted. The Shelley figure is at a Dead Stop and does Not look to be in any kind of a hurry. The same goes for Lovelady. The Tick/Tock here does does fit if you buy into the :20 seconds after the kill shot being tied to Officer Baker running across the Island. That :20 second timestamp is when the Shelley and Lovelady clock begins running. 
    This is why I continue to encourage you to do a thread on the subject of Shelley and Lovelady going through the TSBD front door. This is your very own unique idea, but it does have time stamping issues that You need to iron out.   
79
JFK Assassination Discussion & Debate / Re: The First Shot
« Last post by Dan O'meara on July 23, 2026, 08:12:43 PM »
Taking the earlier difficult shot gave Oswald an extra chance to hit JFK. He  could still be able to take the easier later shots if he missed which he did. It could be argued that by taking the early first shot, he could have cost himself a chance at the later shots, but that didn't happen. That was a decision Oswald had to make and the fact someone else might have made a different choice proves nothing. Given that Oswald eventually succeeded in what he was trying to do, I see no reason to second guess his choice.

This is all just made up nonsense based on nothing.

I am offering a witness report observing the shooter staring "transfixed" for 10 - 15 seconds in the direction of the underpass.
This was seconds before the motorcade entered Dealey Plaza.
I offer an image showing what the shooter was looking at, the area in which we see both men actually reacting to being shot in the Z-film.
It makes complete sense that the shooter is focussed on the 'kill zone'.
The arrangement of boxes, known as the Sniper's Perch, also demonstrates the direction in which the shooter intended to fire. He put these boxes in position with the shooting in mind.

Like all true Nutters, you labour under the delusion that what you think is a fact, just because you think it.
There was no early shot.
Both men were shot through at z222/z223.
This is based solely on the mountain of valid evidence pointing to this conclusion.
Your opinion is based on a single witness.

80
Huh? I was quoting a physicist who was discussing information he obtained directly from a renowned forensic pathologist when he interviewed him.

This is yet another lame dodge. Dr. Fillinger did not need to examine the medical evidence at the National Archives to comment on Humes's and Kellerman's WC testimony about the bullet fragmentation seen in the skull x-rays, and to comment on the fragmentation of the skull described by the autopsy doctors in their WC testimony and illustrated in the WC's two wound diagrams of the exit wound (CE 386 and CE 388). If he had examined the skull x-rays at the Archives, he would have seen the 30-40 tiny fragments that Humes and Kellerman described; and if he had examined the skull x-rays and autopsy photos at the Archives, he would have seen the skull damage that the autopsy doctors described and that the WC's wound diagrams illustrated.

Why of course. Who needs to see the stinking medical evidence when second hand accounts are available. The FPP did see all the medical evidence and they concurred with the autopsy conclusion that the bullet that entered JFK's back exited from his throat. That finding was unanimous. But we should disregard that because of a conclusion by Fillinger based on what he read from Humes's and Kellerman's WC testimony. Do you have any idea how laughable that is?
Quote

So, now, what is your answer to Dr. Fillinger's point that FMJ ammo, especially FMJ ammo that was not traveling at a high velocity, would not have shattered into 30-40 tiny fragments and would not have caused the kind of extensive damage that was done to JFK's skull?

If he had never seen a case of what a 6.5mm FMJ Carcano bullet does when it strikes a skull, his observations are nothing more than educated guesses.
Quote

Notice that Dr. Fillinger's observations fit perfectly with Dr. Vincent DiMaio's observations about the behavior of FMJ bullets. Just to refresh your memory, once again, here's what Dr. DiMaio said on the subject:

Again, I have to remind you that not all FMJ ammo is the same. They have different shapes, constructions, velocities, etc., all of which will impact what happens to the bullet when it strikes a hard surface like a human skull. FMJ bullets come in a wide variety of shapes, calibers, velocities, etc. It is ludicrous to assume they will all fragment in the same manner when striking a human skull.
Quote

An x-ray of an individual shot with a full metal-jacketed rifle bullet . . . usually fails to reveal any bullet fragments at all even if the bullet has perforated bone such as the skull or spine.If any fragments are seen, they are very sparse in number. . . .(Gunshot Wounds, p. 166)

In x-rays of through-and-through gunshot wounds, the presence of small fragments of metal along the wound track virtually rules out full metal-jacketed ammunition.. . . In rare instances involving full metal-jacketed centerfire rifle bullets, a few small, dust-like fragments of lead may be seen on x-ray if the bullet perforates bone. One of the most characteristic x-rays and one that will indicate the type of weapon and ammunition used is that seen from centerfire rifles firing hunting ammunition. In such a case, one will see a 'lead snowstorm'. . . . Such a picture rules out full metal-jacketed rifle ammunition or a shotgun slug. (Gunshot Wounds, p. 318)

Again, did you catch that? Let's review: (1) In the "rare" cases when FMJ bullets do fragment when they penetrate bone, they will only leave a "few" fragments. And (2) if an x-ray shows a "lead snowstorm," this "rules out" FMJ ammo.

On a side note, I trust you're aware that experts from both sides have described the cluster of 30-40 tiny fragments seen on the JFK skull x-rays as a "lead snowstorm."

So? [quote[

The ammo that hit JFK's head could not have been FMJ ammo.
[/quote]

An idiotic, statement made by an .....well, I don't need to say it.
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