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71
The JFK Assassination - Discussion & Debate / Re: Quoting Common Sense
« Last post by Tom Scully on Yesterday at 10:04:12 PM »
....
-Snip-
My guess would be that Oswald was simply looking for jobs in downtown Dallas and wanted a room convenient to the main bus line. I think that's a more logical interpretation than that he knew he'd be working at the TSBD because it had all been scripted in advaance.

I'm really not familiar with Adele at all. For those who likewise aren't, here is a 2004 thread started by John Simkin at the Ed Forum where his original post summarizes her story in considerable detail: https://educationforum.ipbhost.com/topic/609-adele-edisen/.

Below is a photo of the pleasant-looking Adele. This is from the unlikely site Cassiopaea, the Fellowship of the Cosmic Mind. In a thread titled "High Strangeness, Adele Edison and the otherwordly murder of JFK," someone named Michael B-C seems to know a hell of a lot about Adele:
https://cassiopaea.org/forum/threads/high-strangeness-adele-edisen-and-the-otherworldly-murder-of-jfk.48858/

Seriously, that thread is worth reading.

This sounds like it's right down my weirdness alley, and I'll have to dive into it!



It gets much, much weirder, Lance.

Adele claimed she was moved by the assassination to ignore her psychiatrist husband's strong advice against it,
and proceed on the morning after, November, 23, to report her story about Rivera to the Secret Service office in NOLA, where she resided at the time.

The federal building seemed closed but she gained access and met up with SS Saic John Rice and an FBI agent named Odum. Rice had been talking to.
She said that they advised that they were leaving that afternoon by plane for a meeting in Dallas.

Adele in her own words at age 73, in 2001,


Agent Rice was deceased by 2010 when I spoke with Adele. His wife's birthday happened to be on 11/22.
According to the wedding announcement, was living near the Polk base and it was located on the route to Shreveport.
I felt strongly Rice dropped his wife off to visit their daughter and celebrate her mother's birthday.
The daughter may have been able to corroborate details of Adele's visit with her father and that he
flew to Dallas for a meeting. Agent Rice's trip to Shreveport on the morning of 11/22 was known because the
record indicates he was ordered to question a Jack Martin of northern Louisiana hours after the JFKA and he
filed a report about that diversion of his return trip from Shreveport.

I located Rice's daughter and gave Adele location and contact info.

Adele seemed grateful to receive that contact information but she then sat on it. She told me she did not want to disturb
Rice's daughter. I also found a contemoorary photo of Rice's daughter.
72
The WC gave pro and con arguments for each of the three shots being the one that missed. They gave no indication they favored any one scenario over the others. They simply laid out the case for and against each scenario and left it to the reader to decide which they thought was more likely to be the correct one. Reading all the arguments the WC laid out and combining it with what we have learned in the last several decades leaves me with no doubt that the first shot missed and the second was the single bullet.

Correct.
73
Just putting myself in Oswald's head, as I am wont to do, I believe the thought process more likely would have been "I may only get one shot at this, so I'm going to make it the best one I can." I don't picture a former Marine sharpshooter taking a "what the hell, maybe I'll get lucky" first shot and alerting the entire world to his location.

This seems like typical ad hoc reasoning: I think he missed an early first shot, ergo this is what he was thinking and what happened. Common sense - oops, that's the other thread - says my scenario is more likely.

I thought his cheapie scope was nonadjustable - no?



I thought his cheapie scope was nonadjustable - no?

There are three adjustments available on the scope found on the rifle on the sixth floor of the TSBD on 11/22/63.
1).  Elevation - adjusts the horizontal crosshair up and down.
2).  Windage - adjusts the vertical crosshair left and right.
3).  Ocular or Diopter - adjusts the focus to bring the the crosshairs (reticle) into sharp focus.

What it doesn’t have is any adjustment for different magnifications (it is fixed at 4X). And it doesn’t have any adjustment for parallax (to bring the target into sharp focus and minimize any parallax effects).

74
The JFK Assassination - Discussion & Debate / Re: Quoting Common Sense
« Last post by Lance Payette on Yesterday at 09:54:13 PM »
Well, weirdness fans, I made a stiff screwdriver and read through the whole Adele Edisen thread. Jesus! I don't know what to make of it, but unless Adele was just flat off her rocker it demands attention. Michael B-C relies heavily on the work of Hank Albarelli, but he and the other posters are no dummies. Weird as they may be, it was refreshing to read participants who are civil and intelligent. I may join!

Here is a 2009 interview with 81-year-old Adele, so you can read what she actually had to say: https://digital.utsa.edu/digital/api/collection/p15125coll4/id/1966/download.

There are really only two choices: (1) Adele was seriously demented, despite her fantastic academic and professional background or (2) Something Damn Weird happened.

I'm not totally clear as to what Michael B-C is suggesting, but it sounds more exotic than "just" MK/ULTRA-type stuff. Something along the lines of The Matrix.

I have mentioned before, but one of my really good friends is an 84-year-old guy who has been one of the true luminaries of the UFO field for 50+ years. Believe me: one of the true luminaries. He believes we live in a programmed virtual reality. He has no interest in the JFKA per se - none - but he does believe that certain events were programmed to have a significance beyond the mere historical event. Two that he has mentioned are the JFKA and the sinking of the Titanic, the latter event being one of my absolute obsessions since I was a toddler.

(Admit it, people: Isn't this way more interesting than that "common sense" stuff? We don't need no stinkin' common sense.)

75

It was not until the HSCA used audio analysis to suggest an early missed first shot that anyone seriously considered that the first shot missed.  If you can find any serious publication prior to the HSCA report in which it was seriously proposed that the first shot missed I will stand corrected.


This snip from the WCR seems to me to be the WC seriously considering whether or not the first shot missed:

The First Shot

If the first shot missed, the assassin perhaps missed in an effort to fire a hurried shot before the President passed under the oak tree, or possibly he fired as the President passed under the tree and the tree obstructed his view. The bullet might have struck a portion of the tree and been completely deflected. On the other hand, the greatest cause for doubt that the first shot missed is the improbability that the same marksman who twice hit a moving target would be so inaccurate on the first and closest of his shots as to miss completely, not only the target, but the large automobile.

Some support for the contention that the first shot missed is found in the statement of Secret Service Agent Glen A. Bennett, stationed in the right rear seat of the President's follow-up car, who heard a sound like a firecracker as the motorcade proceeded down Elm Street. At that moment, Agent Bennett stated:

... I looked at the back of the President. I heard another firecracker noise and saw that shot hit the President about four inches down from the right shoulder. A second shot followed immediately and hit the right rear high of the President's head.337
Substantial weight may be given Bennett's observations. Although his formal statement was dated November 23, 1963, his notes indicate that he recorded what he saw and heard at 5:30 p.m., November 1963, on the airplane en route back to Washington, prior to the autopsy, when it was not yet known that the President had been hit in the back.338 It is possible, of course, that Bennett did not observe the hole in the President's back, which might have been there immediately after the first noise.

Page 112

Governor Connally's testimony supports the view that the first shot missed, because he stated that he heard a shot, turned slightly to his right, and, as he started to turn back toward his left, was struck by the second bullet.339 He never saw the President during the shooting sequence, and it is entirely possible that he heard the missed shot and that both men were struck by the second bullet.


This illustrates what I said earlier. The WC gave pro and con arguments for each of the three shots being the one that missed. They gave no indication they favored any one scenario over the others. They simply laid out the case for and against each scenario and left it to the reader to decide which they thought was more likely to be the correct one. Reading all the arguments the WC laid out and combining it with what we have learned jin the last several decades leaves me with no doubt that the first shot missed and the second was the single bullet.
76
The WR speaks for itself.  What I am saying is that the consensus of all members of the WC was that JFK was hit by the first shot and this was also the general consensus of the media and observers.  It was not until the HSCA used audio analysis to suggest an early missed first shot that anyone seriously considered that the first shot missed.  If you can find any serious publication prior to the HSCA report in which it was seriously proposed that the first shot missed I will stand corrected. This is why Connally kept insisting that he disagreed with the WC on the first shot. His disagreement was not that it hit JFK. His disagreement was that it was not the shot that he felt hit him in the torso


It was not until the HSCA used audio analysis to suggest an early missed first shot that anyone seriously considered that the first shot missed.  If you can find any serious publication prior to the HSCA report in which it was seriously proposed that the first shot missed I will stand corrected.


This snip from the WCR seems to me to be the WC seriously considering whether or not the first shot missed:

The First Shot

If the first shot missed, the assassin perhaps missed in an effort to fire a hurried shot before the President passed under the oak tree, or possibly he fired as the President passed under the tree and the tree obstructed his view. The bullet might have struck a portion of the tree and been completely deflected. On the other hand, the greatest cause for doubt that the first shot missed is the improbability that the same marksman who twice hit a moving target would be so inaccurate on the first and closest of his shots as to miss completely, not only the target, but the large automobile.

Some support for the contention that the first shot missed is found in the statement of Secret Service Agent Glen A. Bennett, stationed in the right rear seat of the President's follow-up car, who heard a sound like a firecracker as the motorcade proceeded down Elm Street. At that moment, Agent Bennett stated:

... I looked at the back of the President. I heard another firecracker noise and saw that shot hit the President about four inches down from the right shoulder. A second shot followed immediately and hit the right rear high of the President's head.337
Substantial weight may be given Bennett's observations. Although his formal statement was dated November 23, 1963, his notes indicate that he recorded what he saw and heard at 5:30 p.m., November 1963, on the airplane en route back to Washington, prior to the autopsy, when it was not yet known that the President had been hit in the back.338 It is possible, of course, that Bennett did not observe the hole in the President's back, which might have been there immediately after the first noise.

Page 112

Governor Connally's testimony supports the view that the first shot missed, because he stated that he heard a shot, turned slightly to his right, and, as he started to turn back toward his left, was struck by the second bullet.339 He never saw the President during the shooting sequence, and it is entirely possible that he heard the missed shot and that both men were struck by the second bullet.


77
I would recommend the following six books for a new student of the JFKA:

(1) The first chapter ("Summary and Conclusions") of the Warren Report to get familiar with the basic facts as presented by the Commission. This is a good starting point.

(2) Final Report of the House Select Committee on Assassinations. Chapters I B ("Scientific acoustical evidence establishes a high probability that two gunmen fired at President John F. Kennedy") and I C ("The committee believes, on the basis of the evidence available to it, that President John F. Kennedy was probably assassinated as a result of a conspiracy. The committee was unable to identify the other gunmen or the extent of the conspiracy.")

(3) Sylvia Meagher - Accessories after the Fact to get acquainted with criticism of the Warren Report. For the same reason I would encourage the reading of

(4) Harold Weisberg - Whitewash I

(5) Jim Marrs - Crossfire - The Plot that killed Kennedy. One of the books promoting the existence of a rather large conspiracy. Biographical data about Oswald interesting, in general well written by former journalist Marrs. The complete absence of end notes prevents the reader from fact checking the sometimes bold statements. A good read though.

(6) The Zapruder film is not a book, therefore the recommendation of Josiah Thompson's Six Seconds in Dallas for an analyses of the film.

78
The JFK Assassination - Discussion & Debate / Re: Quoting Common Sense
« Last post by Tom Scully on Yesterday at 09:16:54 PM »
I really don't have an evidentiary minimum. What I posted is the only evidence there is. The tip came into the DPD from a confidential source only ten days after the JFKA. The Allright manager, Morrow, didn't come forward but had to be approached - for some reason not until January 23. His story sounds entirely credible to me - nothing sensationalized, but with the distinctly odd detail that Oswald asked about the height of the building and whether it had a good view of downtown Dallas. The other employee, Sapp, "knew for a fact" that Oswald never spoke to employee Hallmark or submitted an application - which sounds as though she is at least confirming the encounter. This sounds to me like one of those intriguing little JFKA details that might be worth its weight in gold if only we knew more.

My guess would be that Oswald was simply looking for jobs in downtown Dallas and wanted a room convenient to the main bus line. I think that's a more logical interpretation than that he knew he'd be working at the TSBD because it had all been scripted in advance.

I'm really not familiar with Adele at all. For those who likewise aren't, here is a 2004 thread started by John Simkin at the Ed Forum where his original post summarizes her story in considerable detail: https://educationforum.ipbhost.com/topic/609-adele-edisen/.

Below is a photo of the pleasant-looking Adele. This is from the unlikely site Cassiopaea, the Fellowship of the Cosmic Mind. In a thread titled "High Strangeness, Adele Edison and the otherwordly murder of JFK," someone named Michael B-C seems to know a hell of a lot about Adele:
https://cassiopaea.org/forum/threads/high-strangeness-adele-edisen-and-the-otherworldly-murder-of-jfk.48858/

Seriously, that thread is worth reading.

This sounds like it's right down my weirdness alley, and I'll have to dive into it!



Adele's Col. Dr. Jose Rivera was 21 in 1900, consistent with his first marriage record in DC in 1924. Then, he got younger, not older like cabbie William Whaley managed to.

This CBS 60 Minutes producer is longtime spouse of Rivera's wife's nephew.

Quote
https://news.colgate.edu/scene/2018/02/60-minutes-turns-50.html
"...We decided to go ahead, against Don’s instincts, and shot the story in Poland. By midwinter, we were ready to show it to him. The 60 Minutes room is a comfortable place, with theater seating and a big monitor in the front of the room. In those days, the correspondent sat out in the seats with senior producer .Merri Lieberthal, while Don and Phil sat behind a small desk. The producer sat in an elevated area toward the room, next to the senior editor, Esther Kartiganer, who timed a clock..

Hilda Aldunate, mentioned in this obit of Jose Rovera's wife, displayed below, was the MIL of longtime wife of Hilda's son, Carlos Aldunate, CBS's Merri Liebenthal, whose career began at CBS as Mike Wallace's secretary.

https://news.google.com/newspapers?nid=1298&dat=19931113&id=Y-cyAAAAIBAJ&sjid=mQcGAAAAIBAJ&pg=4307,2534374
In right top center of the newspaper page image linked above,:
"November 13, 1993
....Producer Merri Lieberthal was Mike Wallace's secretary when the show made it's debute."

Quote
https://www.mylife.com/merri-lieberthal/e6379878996
Merri Lieberthal is 84 years old and was born on 05/05/1942. Right now, Merri Lieberthal lives in Aventura, FL. Merri also answers to Merr S Lieberthal, Merri Sue Lieberthal, Merri S Liebethal, Merri S Lieberthal and Merri S Aldunate, and perhaps a couple of other names. Background details that you might want to know about Merri include: ethnicity is unknown, whose political affiliation is none; and religious views are listed as unknown. Hilda Aldunate, Carlos Aldunate,...

Quote
https://www.mylife.com/carlos-aldunate/e6362211018
Carlos P Aldunate, 85 - Aventura, FL - Has Court or Arrest Records
As of this date, Carlos is single. Carlos has many family members and associates who include Merri Lieberthal, Hilda Aldunate, Carlos Aldunate, Robert Aldunate and Joanne Aldunate.



79
I thought it was newsworthy, especially in 2013, with the 50th anniversary of the JFKA approaching, that the Rochester Democrat and Chronicle, a Gannett chain newspaper since 1928, be made aware that a hometown boy, Tom Devine, is described in HSCA records as meeting, on behalf of CIA, with DeMohrenschildt and Clemard Charles in NYC less than four weeks after what would be the final time the DeMohrenschildt couple ever visited with the Oswald couple, on Easter Sunday, 1963. DeMohrenschildt later wrote that he had asked, "Lee, how did you miss," referring to the attempt on Edwin Walker. George Dem's wife, Jean was on record as seeing the rifle that day.

There's a further coincidence for ya: I lived in Rochester from 1985 to 1987 and again in 1993. Even though I'm a native Arizonan, it was my favorite place I've ever lived. I had a letter to the editor published in the Democrat and Chronicle!
80
(SIGH)

Here we go with another one of Andrew's "So-and-so said" observations, as if that establishes something as a fact.

I never said that Mrs. Cabell’s evidence was a fact. But it is evidence that fits with a first shot too late and with the rifle in the wrong position for a missed first shot.  You don’t seem to want to acknowledge that at every turn the witnesses fit together in a way that is completely inconsistent with a missed first shot. 

Quote
The truth is that a lot of witnesses in Dealey Plaza gave us lots of versions of what happened. Some of them were right and some of them were wrong. Andrew seems unwilling to look beyond the witness statements to figure out who was right and who was wrong. He developed a crazy scenario years ago that makes no sense and ever since has been cherry picking the witness observations to find support for his scenario. He then takes the forensic evidence and tries to force fit it to his scenario. It is a completely bassackwards approach to the evidence which has yielded his bassackwards conclusion. He will remain hopelessly lost in learning the truth of the JFKA and his silly scenario, which only he believes, will die with him, even if that's fifty years from now.

There are at least 80 witnesses who provided evidence that is entirely inconsistent with a missed first shot.  You nevertheless maintain that JFK smiled and waved for at least 3 seconds after the first “horrible ear-shattering noise” despite not being able to point to a single witness who said that occurred.  I suppose that is not cherry picking because you haven’t yet found a cherry.  I don’t have to cherry pick. Everytime I reach in my cherry basket I pull out a handful.
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