JFK Assassination Forum

I was talking about both and got confused between this and the First Shot thread.  But the point is the same.  The idea that anyone would have forgotten about the first shot is absurd.  They may not have counted all the shots but the idea that they did not notice the shots is something that you are just speculating about to explain why not a single witness put the first shot anywhere near where you put it (half a second before Zapruder started filming).

Tina Towner put it later (4-6 seconds after she stopped filming according to her 1996 oral history at Sixth Floor Museum). Hugh Betzner put it later (after z186). Robert Croft put it later (after z161). Occupants of the VP car put it later (just completed the turn). Connally put it later (150-200 feet after the corner).  Mary Woodward put it later (after JFK's last right turn, wave after he passed by where she stood). Occupants of the VP Security car put it later (almost completed the turn). Greer put it later (when they were passing the west edge of the TSBD). Billy Clay, Jean Newman, Georgia Hendrix, Sue Dickerson, Peggy Hawkins, said the President had just passed them when the first shot occurred.  Karan Hicks said :The car he was in was almost directly in front of where I was standing when I heard the first explosion."   

How could all these witnesses independently recall a first shot 4-5 seconds later than you suggest and all be so wrong and yet not a single witness put it anywhere near where you suggest?

Per Tina Towner in her book:

I believe Daddy was about to head down the hill to get another photo, but there was not enough time before the first gunshot sounded—only a second or two, if that, after I stopped filming.

If I remember correctly, her film stops about one second before Z133.

She?

I thought we were talking about Betzner.

My bad.

I was talking about both and got confused between this and the First Shot thread.  But the point is the same.  The idea that anyone would have forgotten about the first shot is absurd.  They may not have counted all the shots but the idea that they did not notice the shots is something that you are just speculating about to explain why not a single witness put the first shot anywhere near where you put it (half a second before Zapruder started filming).

Tina Towner put it later (4-6 seconds after she stopped filming according to her 1996 oral history at Sixth Floor Museum). Hugh Betzner put it later (after z186). Robert Croft put it later (after z161). Occupants of the VP car put it later (just completed the turn). Connally put it later (150-200 feet after the corner).  Mary Woodward put it later (after JFK's last right turn, wave after he passed by where she stood). Occupants of the VP Security car put it later (almost completed the turn). Greer put it later (when they were passing the west edge of the TSBD). Billy Clay, Jean Newman, Georgia Hendrix, Sue Dickerson, Peggy Hawkins, said the President had just passed them when the first shot occurred.  Karan Hicks said :The car he was in was almost directly in front of where I was standing when I heard the first explosion."   

How could all these witnesses independently recall a first shot 4-5 seconds later than you suggest and all be so wrong and yet not a single witness put it anywhere near where you suggest?

CT'ers, past-day and present, need to be upfront and acknowledge that there has long been Tehran and Moscow influencers playing in JFKA-land. It may be worse today than ever, due to the internet and social media.

To be sure, official Washington promoted the LN view.

People should keep in mind that the WC committed to the LN view, not only excluding domestic influence on LHO, but foreign.

No one wanted to know if LHO answered to the KGB or G2, and worse, possibly through KGB asset Bruce Solie. Or G2 assets embedded in the Cuban exile community.

The CT community has spent decades examining the CIA, and not really coming up with much. Some plausible deductions, but really still bordering on speculation.

Yes, Bill Harvey ran assassination programs, hated JFK and was an alcoholic. He may have been on a commercial flight to Texas in late 1963. And?

You keep claiming that the WC quashed investigations into Oswald's foreign connections. Who did this and what is your evidence for it? Who told the FBI and CIA to stop investigating these questions? You think Angleton and the CIA stopped looking into Oswald and any foreign connection to the assassination because someone in the WC ordered them to? Warren? Rankin? Who exactly? In any case, he didn't stop.

From what I've read the WC staff heavily relied on the FBI and CIA and others to conduct most of the investigation. The staff wasn't able to investigate so many different areas, conduct the literally thousands of interviews that were done. Run the tests, examine the film, et cetera. The WC sent, if I have it right, two staffers to Mexico City to investigate what happened there: David Slawson (still alive) and Bill Coleman. Both had to rely on reports from the CIA and FBI of course.

In any case, who in the WC ordered the FBI and CIA to not investigate any foreign connections? And who ordered the HSCA and Church Committee and media not to investigate these matters? You do know we've had more investigations beside the WC?

As to Russo: He says that he believes Oswald alone killed JFK but that Oswald *may* have been influenced by pro-Castro people, people he met in Mexico City and perhaps elsewhere. But that's it. There are all kinds of allegations about Oswald meeting "X" or "Y", as Russo discusses in his books, but people make all sorts of claims about Oswald. Russo's complaint is that the CIA didn't follow up on some allegations. But that wasn't done - or not done - on orders from the WC.

Oliver Stone's Ruth Paine

Stone told actor Gail Cronauer, who played Janet Williams, aka Ruth Paine, in a conspiratorial manner.

https://www.onthetrailofdelusion.com/post/oliver-stone-s-ruth-paine

DO-

Thanks for your collegial comments, and your explanation is as good as any.

I do wonder about a fragment leaving JBC's wrist and making what looks like a near-perfect bullet hole in JBC's pant leg.

I lean to Paul Landis finding CE-399 in the back of the JFK limo, 11/22.

Caveat emptor, and draw your own conclusions.

You don't seem to disagree with my observation that an intact bullet could not have passed through JBC's wrist bone but you don't seem to agree either.
The lack of hole through the bone, the small slit-like exit wound, the trail of metallic fragments through the wound and the irregular nature of the object certainly favours the explanation that a small fragment of bullet passed through the wrist rather than an intact bullet.

As for CE399...there isn't a scrap of evidence, that I'm aware of, placing CE399 anywhere near Parkland hospital on the day of the assassination and Connally recalls the slug that was in his leg being recovered in the operating theatre as he was being moved from the stretcher to the table. He recalls it making a sound like a "wedding band" hitting the floor and that a nurse picked it up. This is from a Robert Harris article [ https://www.kennedysandking.com/john-f-kennedy-articles/the-connally-bullet ]:

But there is an even better reason why we can be quite certain that CE399 was not the bullet that wounded Governor Connally. The real bullet was found on the second floor and recovered by a nurse, who then passed it on to officer Bobby Nolan, who then delivered it to the Dallas Police department. The confirmation of this begins with Governor Connally. This is from his autobiography entitled, "In History's shadow".

"..the most curious discovery of all took place when they rolled me off the stretcher, and onto the examining table. A metal object fell to the floor, with a click no louder than a wedding band. The nurse picked it up and slipped it into her pocket. It was the bullet from my body, the one that passed though my back, chest and wrist and worked itself loose from my thigh.

There was enormous significance to that scrap of metal, but I can't be certain how many years later I understood the importance of it. I have always believed that three bullets found their mark. What happened in the hospital demonstrated how easily a bullet could have been swept aside and lost.."

What the governor obviously didn't realize however, is that the bullet was not "swept aside". Certainly, the nurse who recovered it would not have just discarded the most important piece of forensic evidence she had ever handled. As it turned out, the Dallas District attorney arrived at the hospital, eager to find out how his old friend, Governor Connally was doing. It seems that he arrived at about the same time that the surgery on the governor was completed, when he ran into that same nurse who found the bullet. This is from an interview of Dallas District attorney, Henry Wade, by the Dallas Morning News.

I also went out to see (Gov. John) Connally, but he was in the operating room. Some nurse had a bullet in her hand, and said this was on the gurney that Connally was on. I talked with Nellie Connally a while and then went on home.

Q: What did you do with the bullet? Is this the famous pristine bullet people have talked about?

A: I told her to give it to the police, which she said she would. I assume that's the pristine bullet.

The nurse promptly carried out the district attorney's instructions, passing the bullet to the nearest uniformed officer in sight, who happened to be Dallas Hwy Patrolman, Bobby Nolan, who was standing in the hallway talking to Connally aide, Bill Stinson. This is from my interview of Nolan in 2010.

I was talking to a man who was one of governor Connally's aides. His name was - I think it was either Stinton or Stimmons (Bill Stinson). And he was an aide to the Governor. And she came up and told him that she had the bullet that came off of the gurney. Now I don't know what gurney. I think they meant Governor Connally's gurney. And she said, "What do you want me to do with it?" He and I were just sitting there in the hallway talking to me and said, "Give it to him"

Q. Was it a bullet fragment or a complete bullet?

Nolan: I don't know. It was a  - they told me that it was a bullet. And I don't know if it was a fragment of a bullet or a whole bullet because it was in a little, small brown envelope. And it was sealed and it was about, I'd say 2 by 3 inches. And it was in that envelope when I got it and I never did look at it or anything."

Q. Now when the nurse gave it to you, did she describe it as a bullet fragment or as a bullet.

Nolan: Uh no. She just said it was a bullet. That's all.

Nolan delivered the bullet to the Dallas Police department that evening, and the next morning, was interviewed by the FBI, who reported (emphasis is mine), Bobby M. Nolan, Texas highway patrolman, Tyler district, was interviewed relative to a bullet fragment removed from the left thigh of Governor Connally, which was turned over to him at Parkland Hospital in Dallas for delivery to the FBI.[/b]