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71
JFK Assassination Plus General Discussion And Debate / Re: Three evenly spaced shots, or "bang . . . . . . . . bang - bang"?
« Last post by Tom Graves on Today at 12:45:12 AM »
Quote from: John Corbett on Today at 12:05:28 AM
The important point is that the eyewitnesses who IDed Oswald as Tippit's murderer were corroborated by the fact Oswald had the Tippit murder weapon in his possession when arrested a short time later along with the same two makes of bullets that were recovered from Tippit's body. I'd call that damn good corroboration.

Without that corroboration, you could make a strong argument for reasonable doubt for Oswald in the Tippit murder. A majority of the wrongfully convicted inmates who were later freed by the innocence project by DNA evidence were convicted due to mistaken eyewitness testimony.

"According to the Innocence Project, as of January 2020, 375 convictions had been overturned through DNA exoneration since 1989. Mistaken identification by eyewitnesses played a role in 61% of those wrongful convictions."

Due to the complicated factors in Dealey Plaza, I think convicting Oswald for the murder of Tippit on eyewitness testimony alone would have been easier than "convicting" him (or any other bad guy) for having fired, from the Sniper's Nest, a missing-everything shot at JFK at hypothetical Z-124 (i.e., half-a-second before Zapruder resumed filming at Z-133), which Roselle and Searce have shown was very probably the case.

https://d7922adf-f499-4a26-96d4-8ab2d521fa35.usrfiles.com/ugd/d7922a_e280e26982b44f2c97c6e6e27026e385.pdf
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JFK Assassination Plus General Discussion And Debate / Re: Gunman in the pergola window...
« Last post by Royell Storing on Today at 12:41:32 AM »
Quote from: Tom Graves on Today at 12:12:19 AM
The fact that this lame thread has had 28,000-plus "views" since it was started a month-and-a-half ago is circumstantial evidence that "former" KGB counterintelligence officer Vladimir Putin really did install Trump as our "president" on 20 January 2017, because it shows how many gullible people there are (most of whom, one can assume, are American citizens) at this forum for him to manipulate and who are attracted to this sort of thing (can you say QAnon?).

   When quoting the "views" for this thread, you miss the obvious. You're outta step. This is further reflected in your looking for an excuse for getting beat in 2016. Long story short, you're in the minority and have been for better than a decade that I know of. Stop being a dink and give Maxwell his due. He's a straw stirring the drink.
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JFK Assassination Plus General Discussion And Debate / Re: Gov. John Connally Grips His White Stetson Hat at Z-272
« Last post by Tom Graves on Today at 12:34:23 AM »
Quote from: Andrew Mason on Today at 12:09:16 AM
Patricia Ann Donaldson said that the limo had just straightened out on Elm Street and that the last two of the three shots were fired very close together. (paraphrased)

Given the nature of the beast (Dealey Plaza created different echoes in different places; people were affected differently by the trauma and chaos they experienced), very few witnesses to the assassination got everything right.

Donaldson at least got the position of the limo basically correct, and from where she was standing, she probably did hear two very close-together echoes.
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JFK Assassination Plus General Discussion And Debate / Re: Education Forum: Clean Towel Service Zionists Waxed JFK!
« Last post by Paul J Cummings on Today at 12:22:16 AM »
Congratulations on discussing! No one researched the company.

Quote from: Bill Brown on Yesterday at 10:26:53 PM

Nonsense.

I saw discussion of this towel truck 20 years ago.
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JFK Assassination Plus General Discussion And Debate / Did LHO fire a shot that missed everything? If so, when did he fire it?
« Last post by Tom Graves on Today at 12:15:31 AM »
When one accepts the reality of the Single Bullet Theorem, i.e., that JFK and JBC were struck by CE-399 at approximately Z-222, then one can speculate on whether or not it was Oswald who had fired the earlier, missing-everything, shot, and if so, when he fired it.

Since three spent shells that had been fired from Oswald's Carcano were found in the Sniper's Nest about an hour after the assassination, since the Carcano, with Oswald's prints on it, was found on the sixth floor, and since Oswald was seen on the sixth floor near the Sniper's Nest by Charles Givens at about 12:05 and by Roy Truly and Officer Baker in the second floor lunchroom about 90 seconds after the final shot, we can reasonably assume that that it was Oswald who had fired all three shots.

Now the only remaining question is when he fired the missing-everything shot.

Brian Roselle and Kevin Scearce point out in their 2020 study that an involuntary "startle" reaction to a loud, unexpected sound like a gunshot does not involve a major L-R head rotation, but "flexion" movements (bending the head and neck forward and downward), instead.

They also point out that seven prime witnesses (including five passengers in the limo: JFK, Jackie, JBC, Nellie, and Kellerman) quickly turned their heads within half-a-second of each other between Z-142 and Z-149, indicating that Oswald's missing-everything shot was at hypothetical Z-124, half-a-second before Zapruder resumed filming at Z-133 and 2.02 seconds before Croft took his photo at Z-161.

Rhetorical question: Can even three of those passengers be shown to have turned their heads quickly within half-a-second of each other in any other part of the Zapruder film up to Z-222?

I haven't looked yet, but I rather doubt it.

https://d7922adf-f499-4a26-96d4-8ab2d521fa35.usrfiles.com/ugd/d7922a_e280e26982b44f2c97c6e6e27026e385.pdf
76
JFK Assassination Plus General Discussion And Debate / Re: Gunman in the pergola window...
« Last post by Tom Graves on Today at 12:12:19 AM »
Quote from: Jake Maxwell on March 08, 2026, 02:45:24 AM
This is from Moorman... Looks like a gunman or a spotter...



The fact that this lame thread has had 28,000-plus "views" since it was started a month-and-a-half ago is circumstantial evidence that "former" KGB counterintelligence officer Vladimir Putin really did install Trump as our "president" on 20 January 2017, because it shows how many gullible people there are (most of whom, one can assume, are American citizens) at this forum for him to manipulate and who are attracted to this sort of thing (can you say QAnon?).
77
JFK Assassination Plus General Discussion And Debate / Re: Gov. John Connally Grips His White Stetson Hat at Z-272
« Last post by Andrew Mason on Today at 12:09:16 AM »
Quote from: John Corbett on Yesterday at 10:13:47 PM
Did you miss this in another thread:

Eyewitness "Patricia Ann Donaldson" said that the Limo was in this position when she heard the first shot.

....

How does that fit with your theory the first shot was fired at Z193.How do you know what he is trying to do? So you say.
It's easy to corroborate your witnesses when you cherry pick the witnesses. How about providing some hard evidence to support your theory of the first shot at Z193.
If witnesses can corroborate other witnesses, they can also refute other witnesses. Why are your cherry picked witnesses more credible than my cherry picked witnesses.
Unfortunately, you picked the wrong witness.  This is the same Patricia Ann Donaldson who said that there was a pause after the first shot and the last two shots were fired rapidly "bam bam", as we see in the Youtube clip:
She describes the very short time the last two shots. So Donaldson must be mistaken about the placement of the President at the time of the first shot because the time between the last two shots that she describes does not permit JFK to have been hit in the neck by the second shot.

[Edit]See my later above in reply to Robin Unger. I was wrongly conflating the Ann Donaldsons so  my comments below, based on them being the same person are not correct]
But Donaldson's mistake about the car location is understandable because she is mistaken about where she was standing.   Patricia Ann Donaldson, known by "Ann" worked at the Dallas Morning News and was standing with Mary Woodward just to the west of the lamp post as shown in the Roberdeau map:


and as noted by Woodward in her DMN story written a few hours later: "Four of us from Women's News, Maggie Brown, Aurelia Alonzo, my roommate Ann Donaldson, and myself had decided to spend our lunch hour by going to see the President. ... The President was looking straight ahead and we were afraid we would not get to see his face. But we started clapping and cheering and both he and Mrs. Kennedy turned, and smiled and waved, directly at us, it seemed. .... [after talking about the second shot she says:] "This was followed rapidly by another shot."

I see that the photos and clip were made by Max Holland and that is him speaking with Donaldson.  That shows you how rigorous he was in placing the location of the first shot....
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JFK Assassination Plus General Discussion And Debate / Re: Three evenly spaced shots, or "bang . . . . . . . . bang - bang"?
« Last post by John Corbett on Today at 12:05:28 AM »
Quote from: Tom Graves on Yesterday at 10:13:44 PM
There's a big difference between identifying a person seen at and/or leaving a crime scene and trying to say from which direction and at what frequency three (or more???) shots were fired in a large echo chamber like Dealey Plaza.

D'oh!

The important point is that the eyewitnesses who IDed Oswald as Tippit's murderer were corroborated by the fact Oswald had the Tippit murder weapon in his possession when arrested a short time later along with the same two makes of bullets that were recovered from Tippit's body. I'd call that damn good corroboration.

Without that corroboration, you could make a strong argument for reasonable doubt for Oswald in the Tippit murder. A majority of the wrongfully convicted inmates who were later freed by the innocence project by DNA evidence were convicted due to mistaken eyewitness testimony.

"According to the Innocence Project, as of January 2020, 375 convictions had been overturned through DNA exoneration since 1989. Mistaken identification by eyewitnesses played a role in 61% of those wrongful convictions."
79
JFK Assassination Plus General Discussion And Debate / Re: Three evenly spaced shots, or "bang . . . . . . . . bang - bang"?
« Last post by John Corbett on Yesterday at 11:58:01 PM »
Quote from: Andrew Mason on Yesterday at 10:59:58 PM
If you think that is a representative sample of the witnesses, you haven't read the evidence. What it doesn't show is that of the many witnesses who, without prompting of any kind, recalled a pattern to the shots, the vast majority distinctly stated that the last two were closer together.

I don't care if it is representative of the body of witnesses or not. It shows that people can watch the same event and remember it very differently which is why I don't put much faith in witnesses or corroboration of witnesses by other witnesses. People can make the same mistake, even large groups of people. That's why we have a large group of witnesses who said it sounded like the shots came from the GK.
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JFK Assassination Plus General Discussion And Debate / Re: Three evenly spaced shots, or "bang . . . . . . . . bang - bang"?
« Last post by Tom Graves on Yesterday at 11:57:12 PM »
Quote from: Andrew Mason on Yesterday at 11:27:48 PM
Yes there is. Eyewitness IDENTIFICATION evidence is prone to error and much less reliable than observation of the number and pattern of three shots.  This is because it is not just about witness observation.  It is about forming an opinion that the person you saw was the same person seen in the line-up.  The famous case of Adolph Beck in England where several people misidentified Beck as the thief in an offence that occurred 17 years earlier. After serving his lengthy prison sentence, five women wrongly identified Beck again as the culprit in another fraud case and he was found guilty.  However, before sentencing, the real thief was found and, as it turns out, was the same person who had committed the first offence as well. This led to a public inquiry that established strict rules for admitting this kind of evidence.

On the other hand, simple witness observation of salient details (those recalled without prompting by most witnesses) is highly accurate as shown by the studies compiled by Eliz. Loftus in her book Eyewitness Testimony (1979), Harvard Press.

Having said all that, the eyewitness identification evidence that Oswald was the person who shot Officer Tippit is supported by a great deal of other evidence and, therefore, the conclusion that Oswald shot Tippit is reliable.

You've got it backwards.

The ten or so eyewitness' identification of the person who murdered Tippit and/or fled the scene was much easier than the hundred or so earwitnesses' trying to remember how many shots were fired at JFK in the echo chamber known as Dealey Plaza, not to mention how those (two? three? four? five? fifteen?) shots were distributed.

D'oh!
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