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71
That's correct.
Wow. We're agreeing

Obvious. No-one has ever suggested that the limo was the target so you're on safe ground. So I have to agree but I am concerned you might be talking sh£t.[/auote]

You must have missed MTG's take on it from a few days ago. He referred to the limo as a large target.
Quote

Knobhead.

This from somebody who is dumb enough to believe Oswald didn't fire the shots that killed JFK.
72
There is certainly no body of evidence of sufficient integrity to convict Oswald beyond reasonable doubt
of firing shots from a TSBD sixth floor window at President Kennedy inside the time frame laid out in the government's
case.


A ridiculous claim that makes the rest of your diatribe not worth responding to. When one looks at the forensic evidence alone, there should be zero doubt that Oswald was the assassin. Never mind that he immediately fled the scene and about 45 minutes later gunned down a Dallas cop.
73
Key and revealing information about the cover-up surfaced when the ARRB interviewed autopsy x-ray technician Jerrol Custer. Custer's testimony proves that the plotters were already exploring ways to produce altered skull x-rays the day after the autopsy.

Custer told the ARRB that the morning after the assassination, he was called into the radiology suite by Dr. John Ebersole, the autopsy radiologist, and was told to tape some metal fragments to skull bones and x-ray them. Custer x-rayed them with the same machine, at the same distance, that he used the night before during the autopsy. Custer stated that Ebersole said these x-rays would be used to make a bust of JFK. Custer added that Dr. Ebersole suggested that he “should forget” everything he was about to see:

A: The next morning I took them.

Q: And where did you take those X-rays?

A: In the main department, in a private room, with a portable X-ray unit.

Q: Was it the same x-ray unit that was used m to take the autopsy -

A: Yes, sir. The same distance.
 
Q: And what was the purpose of taking these x-rays?

A: I was told by Dr. Ebersole that they were to be taken to make measurements, to make a bust of President Kennedy.

Q: What did you do when you took the x-rays? What were the procedures? How did you go about taking them?

A: All I did was place the bone fragments on the film, and I made different exposures at different distances.

Q: Did Dr. Ebersole say anything to you about metal fragments?

A: He gave me three or four different metal fragments, varying in size. And he asked me to tape them to the bones. . . .

Q: Let me try asking you one question, just to make sure that the record is clear on this. Did Dr. Ebersole ask you to tape the metal fragments to the bone after he had returned from the White House? Are you able to say with certainty?

A: Absolutely. As soon as he walked in, that’s the first thing he said. “I want these bone fragments x-rayed with metal fragments taped”. . . .

Q: Is there any question in your mind whether you, in fact, taped metal fragments to the bones?

A: Absolutely no question at all in my mind. . . .

Q: Did Dr. Ebersole ever subsequently explain to you the purpose for taping metal fragments to the bones to be -

A: No, he didn’t. He just stated to me, when he brought the film -- the bone fragments and the metal fragments to me, that he had just come back from the White House after being debriefed.

Q: And what did he say about that debriefing?

A: WelI, he just said that he was debriefed by the Secret Service. And that was it.
High-ranking people had talked to him. And he suggested to me that everything that I see from now on, I should forget. (“Deposition of Jerrol Francis Custer,” ARRB, Transcript of Proceedings, October 28, 1997, pp. 143-146)


Obviously, taping bullet fragments to skull bones and then x-raying the bones had nothing to do with making a bust of JFK. Ultimately, the plotters opted not to use these x-rays because they realized that the x-rays could be altered via darkroom techniques that would be virtually impossible to detect at the time.

Scientific proof of the alteration was not discovered until Dr. David Mantik performed optical density (OD) measurements on the skull x-rays in the 1990s. Dr. Mantik discovered that the 6.5 mm object is not metallic and that the white patch in the lower rear parietal-occipital area is a physical impossibility for a human skull.

Dr. Mantik discovered that the 6.5 mm object was ghosted over a somewhat smaller genuine bullet fragment and a tiny bullet fragment. The largest of the two fragments is an irregular and jagged fragment measuring 2.0 mm at its narrowest point and 2.5 mm at its widest point, and measuring right around 6.3 mm in height. The tiny fragment is roughly circular and has a diameter of about 0.25 mm.

The density of these two genuine metal fragments is far less than the impossibly density of the 6.5 mm object as established by its OD measurements. The density of the two fragments is consistent with the density of metal fragments, whereas the 6.5 mm object's density is a physical impossibility if the object is metallic, proving that it is a ghosted image.

Dr. Mantik was even able to duplicate how the 6.5 mm object was added to the AP skull x-ray. The 6.5 mm object does not appear on the lateral skull x-rays, further absolute proof that the object is not metallic.

BTW, when Dr. Mantik read Custer’s ARRB testimony, he contacted Custer and was able to interview him at length. Custer reaffirmed his ARRB testimony in every detail.
74
Those who defend the obvious lies of the Warren Commission Report need some kind of mental inspection.
It is very possible that you are some kind of extreme lunatic with whom any kind of rational debate is impossible.
Has that ever occurred to you?
Remember - you are like a little child who has had their opinions provided for them. You haven't thought for yourself. You've just swallowed down what you've been told to swallow down.
I've worked for my knowledge and insights.

It's possible that you are just a gigantic loser.

Anyone who can look at the evidence and not conclude Oswald was the assassin ought not to be casting aspersions on the mental capacities of others.

You've been duped by conspiracy proponents over the years into believing myths. You are completely lacking in common sense.
75
Fun back and forth banter is allowed, just remember, i'm always......................................

76
This is so you in my mind.
I still don't have a f%cking clue what you actually think.
I don't know if this helps - the Warren Commission Report is a childishly obvious tissue of lies.
This can be demonstrated beyond the slightest doubt.
Does that count in any way?
Do you think Oswald took the shots?

There is certainly no body of evidence of sufficient integrity to convict Oswald beyond reasonable doubt
of firing shots from a TSBD sixth floor window at President Kennedy inside the time frame laid out in the government's
case.

Rooming house owner Gladys Johnson stated that she recalled Oswald initially asking about availablility of a room for
rent because he wanted to "be near his work". This conflicts with the reality of Oswald not being employed at that time.

Bonnie Ray Williams testified he was eating his lunch alone on the sixth floor until he left at 12:20 pm to descend to the fifth
floor to join co-workers.

In early 2013, I received a curious reaction to my telephoned request to a nephew of one of the most curious person
of interest in the investigation, Jack Dougherty, especially of sixth floor activity during the crucial window of time in which the JFK motorcade
was approaching and making the unusual turn onto Elm St.

The nephew's wife hung up on me when I identified myself as a moderator at the JFK Debate forum requesting to speak to
her husband. I immediately called back and this time the nephew answered. I requested that he consider he or members of his
family donate a photo of his uncle Jack to the Sixth Floor museum in observance of the then upcoming 50th anniversary of the
JFKA. The nephew reacted as if I was accusing his late uncle Jack of committing murder and or conspiracy.
I reminded him I was calling in the interest of history, posterity, pointing out I was not making the request out of personal
benefit in any way and I was not one of the posters on the internet he described as treating his late uncle very badly.
I asked him to consider donating a photo that could reasonably result in clearing his uncle Jack of suspicion, since so much film
evidence of the noon hour in and near the TSBD exists. It seems Jack's family chose to continue to cheat history.

Then there is the palm print DPD Lt. Day claimed he lifted off the rifle found on the sixth floor but somehow neglected to
initially catalogue for the FBI lab in DC where the rifle was sent next. No latent fingerprints were ever lifted from the rifle,
or from the stripper clip containing unfired ammuntion, nor from the 3 spent bullet hulls found on the sixth floor, nor
even from the boxes of books stacked to block the view between the boxes and the sixth floor window investigators
claimed was the sole source of gunfire at the President's limousine.
No retail transaction or other source of the unusual Carcano rifle ammo was ever identified.
Oswald allegedly had a library card with the name of his former co-worker, Jack Bowen, displayed on the back.
Bowen just happened to be the former brother-in-law of Dial Ryder, a man who claimed to have made adjustments
to the Carcano rifle at the request of a customer. A closer look at the background and history of Jack Bowen is
quite amazing. He was a convicted felon who had conned his way into being hired for a position as art director
at a firm that had a section it claimed was compartmentalized to secure to secret, federal government contract work.
That firm also hired recent defector returned from the Soviet Union, LHO.

The rifle investigators claimed to have been a mail order purchase from Klein's in Chicago was associated with a
postal money order payment that allegedly set a record as the fastest mailing from Dallas and quickest payment processing
upon receipt by Klein's that anyone could ever imagine. It certainly wasn't anyone at Klein's fault that the receiving bank
misdated the date of deposit.

But none of the above is even required for me to be a sceptic of the first government panel's conclusion and reports.
There is the matter of the DOJ sending its number 3 assistant to the Attorney General, Howard Willens to be its eyes and
ears on the WC. Willens later testified he determined who was to investigate what area and when to stop devoting
investigative resources to any given assignment. For example, Willens later testified he had ended the investigation of
Jack Ruby's foreign travel and activity. In 1956, FBI records indicate questioning of Willen's father after he had returned from
a Home Builder's Association organized trip to and tour of the Soviet Union. The senior Willens asked the FBI agents not to be prejudiced
by Willens' recent decision, at that time, to purchase and relocate his wife and son to a residence adjacent to that of Tony
Accardo. Articles exist more recently online describing the basement of the former Willens residents being connected by
a tunnel to the former Accardo residence!

Descriotion and photo of Accardo's former home,
https://archive.is/WWRPp  Or, https://www.chicagotribune.com/2025/10/15/anthony-accardo-river-forest-mansion/

"....The property had a $47,917 property tax bill in the 2023 tax year."
77
The JFK Assassination - Discussion & Debate / Re: The First Shot
« Last post by Andrew Mason on Yesterday at 06:01:22 AM »
This is a lie.
I've always been slightly disgusted by how low you are willing to go.
The last we see of all three agents is z207 and not a single one makes any sign of turning to the right and rear.
You really should be ashamed for peddling this never-ending lie.

You really should try to control your impulsive visceral responses to posts.  Lashing out in anger with ad hominem epithets is not persuasive and universally recognized as poor advocacy.  No one is trying to deceive anyone here. As far as Ready beginning his turn to the right, here is Ready from z193-z207.  Follow his right hand. it is on the right hand hold in z193. It is down by his right side and his body is turning right by z207:



He is completely turned around to the right rear 2.5 seconds later in Altgens 6.  He didn't have time to turn left and then right again between z207 and z255 so I suggest that this is the right turn that he is referring to, which he said he made after the first shot.  If you disagree, just explain why.

Quote
Another ridiculous lie.
It never ends.
JFK reacts by throwing his hands up towards his throat/chin.
It is not by "moving left".

Are you not ashamed by the endless lies you have to tell?
Do you have no respect for the truth?
Several witnesses directly behind the limo, such as Dave Powers, Ken O'Donnell, Sam Kinney, George Hickey, and Clint Hill, all reported JFK moving to the left and/or slumping to left after the first shot.  The fact that you find this so surprising that you suggest it is a lie says more about your lack of knowledge of the evidence than anything else.  Again, the ad hominem approach is the poorest form of debate. You really should try to control that.
78

Let’s be honest: Rational people who are acquainted with the evidence as whole know Oswald shot JFK from TSBD6 and murdered Tippit. There’s no real doubt about this.

Lance, I'm going to give a summary comment on the Tippit case and I would like you to explain if you classify it as "lunatic fringe" and say why. But first, a comment on the real issue you raise of what is the difference between a legitimate differing argument or interpretation of evidence, and "wacky" territory. I have an analogy here you might find instructive. It appears in a book I wrote a couple decades ago, "Showdown at Big Sandy", about a Bible college in east Texas I attended for two years in the 1970s. I was discussing the phenomenon of "cults", which is in some ways parallel to the definitional questions you raise here. What is the difference between a religion one does not personally believe, but which one does not regard it sociologically as a "cult"? At the time I wrote the book, one of the leading (supposedly) authorities on cults was Walter Martin, who wrote a book called "Kingdom of the Cults". He wrote from a conservative Christian perspective, and detailed an encyclopedic taxonomy of all sorts of various offbeat and idiosyncratic religious groups with which American history has been filled, part of America's claim to fame.   

The problem was in among the extensive cult listings in his book, Kingdom of the Cults, he listed Unitarians. Unitarians?? I found that odd. As I noted at the time, Unitarians have produced four American presidents and too many famous scientists to count--how on earth did he have them defined as a "cult"? Well, he gave his reasons, three reasons. Here is what, in his view, made Unitarians a "cult", and I am not making this up: Unitarians do not believe in the Trinity, they do not believe in hell, and they replace the authority of the Bible with reason. Those three things, said Martin, quite logically make Unitarians a "cult". Obviously Unitarians in America are not a "cult", and it is clear what was going with Martin: he was confusing his definition of "heresy" categories (beliefs different from what he considered correct historic Christian doctrines) with a sociological/behaviorial phenomenon, "cultism", not the same thing, a category confusion.

Anyway, here is the text for review. Is this text "lunatic fringe"? Or is that kind of name-calling like Walter Martin's overreach in his labeling? This text is from my website, I wrote it.

[START]
Informal assessment of the Tippit case--a different way to look at it

There are evidence-based grounds for reasonable doubt Oswald killed Tippit, contrary to prevailing mainstream opinion. This has nothing to do with conspiracy theory. It has to do with did he do the crime.

The single strongest crime scene witness of all, because of how close he was from only 15-25 feet away, testified he had an excellent view of the back of the killer’s head and described a block cut rear hairline which, as it stands, is highly credible stand-alone exonerating testimony, given that all photos of Oswald show him with a tapered rear hairline. For good measure this single best crime scene witness of all was a barber. Hard to beat that for a witness favorable to reasonable doubt.

No less than eight (!) crime scene witnesses or witnesses of the fleeing gunman testified that that gunman was wearing a white or light-colored shirt, underneath a partly open zippered jacket. As everyone knows Oswald was seen by Brewer and arrested in a dark brown shirt. This is not an easy massive number of witness testimonies that can easily be accounted for as mistakes. Reasonable doubt grounds number two.

Multiple witness reports had the gunman’s hair described as “black” or very dark brown. Oswald’s appears to have been medium brown, and I am not aware of any independent testimony to a witness seeing Oswald’s hair as “black.” Reasonable doubt grounds number three.

There is a strong–more so for reasons argued earlier than has been acknowledged–argument that two sets of fingerprints lifted from the Tippit patrol car 20 minutes after the crime, deriving from the same one individual, were left by the killer. Those prints were found by expert analysis to be not Oswald’s. Those prints have never been proven to not be the killer’s. Reasonable doubt grounds number four.

The witnesses who identified the gunman as Oswald are less decisive than it appears. For some reason few seem aware that since the time of the Warren Commission in 1964 when the following was not known, studies since then have established–this is mainstream yet seems still not to have percolated consciousness of JFKA related/Tippit case discussions in a perverse illustration of scholarly compartmentalization–that witness facial recognition in cases in which the witness does not already know the person, is not reliable at over 50 feet. Reason: the human eye loses detail with distance, necessary for accurate reliability in facial recognition. This lack of reliability at over 50 feet overrides witnesses’ expressions of confidence or certainty. There goes Callaway (56 feet) and all of the Warren Reynolds auto place witnesses, right there. The Davis sisters-in-law both said they saw the killer’s face only in profile not full face.

This is not to say there isn’t a case against Oswald from the shell hulls Oswald revolver identfication if one does not consider chain of custody issues with those hulls to be significant.

And there is an argument from coincidence/proximity that Oswald was nearby in the midst of a live shooter police manhunt in process.

But the eyewitness identifications incriminating Oswald range from poor to medium quality, none exceptionally strong, with the argument for incrimination relying on the number of them more than their quality.

There is zero weight toward incrimination of Oswald from the killer’s jacket (CE 162)’s fibers, from any expert testimony. That is why neither the FBI nor Warren Commission who knew of those fibers ever claimed they were positive weight evidence of a match to Oswald’s brown shirt, because no expert ever testified to that and it is unlikely any would. Non-expert interpretations don’t count. It is like saying common cooking ingredients prove a certain kind of cake was made.

As for the jacket itself, Marina testified it was Lee’s, and Buell Frazier testified even more emphatically that it definitely was not–that he knew Lee’s gray work jacket and Lee’s was woolen and gray, not the off-white light tan cloth CE 162 which would easily pick up dirt and not be too practical as a daily work jacket in dusty or dirty surroundings doing manual labor. One is not right between Marina and Buell, take your pick.

Here is a clue: there are plenty of photos of Oswald when he was in Minsk, but none of those photos show him wearing CE 162. But the famous Minsk coworkers’ photo shows Oswald in a jacket which appears to be an exact match with Buell Frazier’s description of Oswald’s gray woolen zippered work jacket. Draw your own conclusions from that.

There is a case from the facts of the crime that Tippit’s killer was a professional. Curtis Craford, recent hire by Oswald’s killer Jack Ruby, generously given a room to sleep in exchange for work supposedly at no pay by Ruby at the Carousel Club, was a self-confessed hitman at this stage of his life. He was left-handed as the fingerprints on the Tippit patrol car, if they were from the killer, indicate the killer was. Craford had a full head of hair so dark brown that it appeared black. On this last detail, Craford’s daughter (born after Craford left Dallas and remarried) told me that as a child growing up, for years as a child she thought her father’s hair was black until belatedly learning it was actually dark brown. EXACTLY the police description of the killer’s hair color, first hour, from Callaway and one other witness as two first-hour police radio bulletin sources on that, who saw and told the color of the killer’s hair as they saw it, before there was any influence on witness testimonies of Oswald in the news.

And the Craford daughter told me her father had a habit of talking to himself, compare Scoggins hearing the gunman doing that leaving the crime scene, not a practice or habit known of Oswald.

Craford is known independently to have been mistakenly identified as Oswald by sincere witnesses–time after time, over a half-dozen confirmed. There goes the perception of strength of the witnesses’ Oswald identifications on Tippit and the argument from numbers of weak witnesses. If it’s a choice between Oswald and Craford as the Tippit gunman, it could be either one from the witnesses’ evidence.

Tippit’s killer came to the crime scene walking from the east on foot consistent with an origin point in the approximate vicinity of Jack Ruby’s apartment. Craford was driven home from the Vegas Club by Ruby at ca. 3 am the night before. Ruby could have driven him to his apartment instead of to the Carousel Club as normally. Both Ruby and Ruby’s apartment-mate George Senator, from Senator’s separate bedroom, left the apartment Friday morning. Craford could have been in Ruby’s room without Senator knowing it, then had the empty apartment to himself until the time came to walk to the crime scene four blocks west to flag down an expected arrival of Tippit as he arrived and kill him as a contract execution. Just saying.

I have developed a few things such as this on a case for Craford on Tippit in a way that has not previously been argued, though I have not had time to write the case fully, it is stopped at this moment because of another project (publication of a book on the General Walker case) and I do not know when I will have time. For anyone interested here are the first three chapters start of the case: https://www.scrollery.com/?p=1850.

Also, final point on the arrest. Oswald did have a loaded gun on him at his arrest, he did resist arrest, and he did punch an officer. But he did not attempt to shoot an officer, and he did not say, “it’s all over now” when he stood up. He said that after he was subdued and had stopped resisting, which changes the meaning. See the testimony of Walthers and others present on that timing point. The failed attempt to shoot Oswald’s revolver evidenced by the telltale “click” everyone heard was McDonald attempting unsuccessfully to shoot Oswald with Oswald’s own gun. This is not speculation but fact, from confession of McDonald that he got control of Oswald’s revolver, pointed it intentionally into Oswald’s stomach, had his finger on the trigger, and started intentionally to pull the trigger to shoot him. That’s not speculation, that’s McDonald himself on YouTube. He says he started to pull the trigger to shoot Oswald with the pistol pointed by McDonald intentionally into Oswald’s stomach. That’s McDonald saying that, not me. But Bentley’s hand was injured blocking the hammer which is why McDonald’s attempt to shoot Oswald failed. It was not premeditated on McDonald’s part to shoot Oswald with his own gun. It followed Oswald punching McDonald in the face. But Oswald no more pulled that trigger than Anthony Pretti in Minneapolis tried to shoot ICE officers as was first claimed over national news citing ICE sources. McDonald claimed Oswald did but McDonald clearly did. Once the matter is properly studied and considered it is not even ambiguous, it is as clear as the Anthony Pretti case. Not that this point materially bears on who killed Tippit, but just to clear the deck on this particular long-standing claim. If you read Westbrook in Sneed, Westbrook, the commanding officer at the scene of the Oswald arrest–he knew it was McDonald who pulled that trigger (p. 315).

Anyone is still free to consider Oswald guilty on Tippit. But there is another side to the story that was never investigated.
[END]
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Here are 10 JFK Assassination books that I would recommend:

1. The Warren Commission's Final Report

2. "Reclaiming History" by Vincent Bugliosi

3. "Case Closed" by Gerald Posner

4. "Oswald's Game" by Jean Davison

5. "The JFK Myths" by Larry Sturdivan

6. "With Malice" by Dale Myers

7. "Kennedy And Lincoln" by Dr. John K. Lattimer

8. "November 22, 1963: You Are The Jury" by David Belin

9. "The Death Of A President" by William Manchester

And, of course, my own book (which provides a good overview of the case)....

10. "Beyond Reasonable Doubt" by Mel Ayton with David Von Pein


80
:D :D :D
You are the biggest loser that has ever posted on this forum.
I urge everyone to look through Lance's recent posts.
What a tiny cock!

   Careful! He will sick his buddy Bart Kamp on you.
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