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JFK Assassination Discussion & Debate / Re: CTer vs Logic
« Last post by John Corbett on Yesterday at 04:06:54 PM »
Gerry, this is unlike you.

But, if we must talk about which side relies on horrible logic. . . .

-- Shall we talk about your side's egregiously illogical attempt to explain the location of the holes in the back of JFK's shirt and coat with the demonstrably false bunched-clothing theory, which requires the assumption that the shirt and coat bunched in nearly perfect correspondence with each other, never mind that the photo taken closest to the time of the shot shows that JFK's coat was lying nearly flat, and never mind that the one motorcade photo that you guys cite (Croft 3) does not show a bunch that was large enough and in the right location to cause a bullet that hit at C3/C4 (per the WC) or T1 (per the HSCA FPP) to create two holes that were over 5 inches below the collar?


The body shows us where the bullet struck, not JFK's clothing. It would be silly to argue the holes in his coat and shirt were not caused by the same bullet that struck his back.
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-- Shall we talk about your theory that, yes, all the motorcade photos in evidence show JFK's tie knot centered in the middle of the collar band, but that just before the bullet hit, the tie knot shifted just enough to allow the bullet to nick the tie knot's left edge, not to mention the fact that both evidence photos of the knot show the nick was not on the left edge but was inward from it?

The tracheostomy prevents us from knowing precisely where the bullet exited JFK's throat but the fact it nicked the left side of the know of his tie tells us the exit wound would have been very close to center.
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-- Shall we talk about your theory that JFK's throat wound was small (5-7 mm), neat, and punched inward because the collar band created a "shoring" effect, tightening the skin to enable the wound to have an entry-like appearance, even though, according to your side, the wound was below the collar band, and even though forensic science tells us that shored wounds will not look like that?


I'll leave it to others to argue the collar shored the neck wound. The simple fact is that FMJ bullets are designed not to deform when striking soft tissue so it is not at all surprised CE399 made a neat exit wound just as it had made a neat entrance wound.
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-- Shall we talk about your theory that numerous medical professionals and federal agents mistook a wound above JFK's right ear for a wound that was several inches farther back and lower and that included about half of the right side of the occipital bone, from which cerebellar tissue could be seen oozing? Mind you, these witnesses include the two nurses who cleaned the wound and packed it with gauze and the three morticians who reassembled the skull after the autopsy, in addition to a federal agent who described the wound as "right-rear" after seeing it up close for several minutes and then seeing it again when he was taken to the morgue for the express purpose of viewing JFK's wounds.

MTG is back to playing doctor, ignoring the fact that every qualified forensic medical examiner who has seen the medical evidence has agreed the headshot struck JFK from behind.
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We're supposed to believe that not one of those people could tell the difference between a gaping wound above the right ear and a wound in the right occipital-parietal area. This is an especially vacuous theory if the autopsy photos of the back of the head are accurate, since they show the rear of the head to be entirely intact.

The Z-film showed us the gaping wound above the right ear the instant the bullet caused the upper right side of JFK's head to explode.
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-- Shall we talk about your side's embarrassing response to the historic optical-density measurements done by Dr. Mantik, Dr. Chessar, Dr. DeSalles, and Dr. Aguilar, which prove, among other things, that the skull x-rays show far, far more missing brain (2/3 of the right cerebrum) than the autopsy brain photos show (per Baden, "less than 1-2 ounces")? 

Why should any of us care what doctors who work in fields unrelated to forensic medicine have to say about what the medical evidence indicates?
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Allow me to add that years earlier, Dr. Fred Hodges, one of the leading radiologists in his day, found that the x-rays show a large part of the right brain to be missing, and that Dr. Humes himself told JAMA that 2/3 of the right cerebrum was blasted away, and that their disclosures are supported by the accounts of a number of witnesses, including the one mortician who commented on the amount of missing brain, who reported that a large part of JFK's brain was missing.

It's not exactly a newsflash that a good portion of the right hemisphere of JFK's brain was blown away.
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Really, you guys are in no position to be accusing others of faulty logic.

This from one of the most illogical people I have ever come across in 35 years of arguing about this case in various online forums.
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https://www.jfkassassinationforum.com/index.php/topic,3681.msg144507.html#msg144507

Start watching the video at 19:25.

Thanks, Tim

Now I do remember the video.

So, after Aguilar and Thompson visited him, he called Thompson to say that he vaguely remembered having a conversation with Wright, but he couldn't recall when and what they talked about. Aguilar had already told him that the FBI had claimed that he had shown CE 399 to a couple of people, he put two and two together and assumed that the conversation with Wright must have been about CE 399, despite the fact that he still couldn't remember ever having CE 399 in his possession.

That's a far cry from how you put it; "In 2003, Josiah Thompson said that Odum called him on the phone and essentially deferred to the FBI document. Meaning that he did indeed show CE-399 to Tomlinson and Wright on June 12, 1964. He remembered being in Wright's office not long after the assassination but couldn't remember why. "

At best it shows that Odum was guessing about what possibly could have happened. As I said before, Odum trusted the FBI so it is understandable for him to question his memory after being told that the FBI said he had shown CE 399 to Wright and Tomlinson.

However, Tomlinson said in his WC deposition that he was interviewed by the FBI only once. And in 1966, during his interview with Marcus, he said that he was shown the bullet only once and that was by SAC Shanklin, about a week after the assassination. No mention of Odum or a June 1964 interview. Given the fact that Tomlinson made those two statements in 1964 and 1966, it is highly likely that his memory was better than Odum's in 2003.
73
JFK Assassination Discussion & Debate / Education Forum Goes Off the Rails
« Last post by Brian Doyle on Yesterday at 03:48:26 PM »


Nobody has the decency, honesty, or back bone to go to Iler and ask him to account for the forum's handling of the Prayer Man Theory...

They protect themselves with Mark Knight who only shows up in order to ban an innocent person and censor his evidence...
74


The origin of the term "Conspiracy Theorist" was CIA trying to put peer pressure on people who told the truth about the Kennedy Assassination...This was a Constitutional violation...CIA was acting as a political control organization illegally as a government department...
75
I honestly don't remember seeing the video you mention.

I'm not interested in playing Groundhog day with you.

Easy to avoid, just post something new and accurate and not the same old BS.

This is the second time in just as many days that you walk away from a conversation after your claims fail to persuade.

https://www.jfkassassinationforum.com/index.php/topic,3681.msg144507.html#msg144507

Start watching the video at 19:25.
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If I remember correctly the bullet hit the floor with a "plink" that only a whole bullet could make...
77

Repeating pure hogwash does not improve it. Again, let's see you produce just one example from any FBI or other investigative document where the term "missile" was used to refer to two small bullet fragments that constituted less than 2% of the mass of a bullet. Let's see it. We both know you can't produce such an example because it doesn't exist, because no one would be dumb enough or careless enough to willingly describe two small bullet fragments as a "missile." 

I know that I've seen a single fragment referred to as a missile by the FBI. I'll see if I can find an example. In the meantime, here is FBI Supervisor Joseph Loeffler referring to multiple bullet fragments as "the bullet".

http://jfk.hood.edu/Collection/McKnight%20Working%20Folders/Part%203/Evidence%20-%20Re%20Fragments%20From%20Connally%20Wrist/Evidence%20Connally%20Fragments%2002.pdf

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Wow, I guess you saw no need to mention any of the problems and indications of fraud that I pointed out in Sibert and O'Neill's HSCA and ARRB statements. I guess you saw no need to mention that I documented that Sibert and O'Neill repeatedly distinguished between "missile/bullet" and "fragments" in their 11/26/63 report and in their HSCA and ARRB interviews. I guess you saw no need to mention that Boyers, the Navy corpsman who supposedly typed the "missile" receipt, said there were three or four fragments, not two, and that Sibert likewise indicated there were more than two fragments in the evidence bottle. You ignored all these points and falsely cited me as if I had contradicted Michael Capasse's arguments.

From the ARRB Deposition of Francis O'Neill:

O'NEILL: Now, I know there’s been some controversy also about- Because we saw them put into a jar, and Jim and I signed for that jar. We signed for a missile. That was exactly what the Navy terminology is for a bullet-anything which flies through the air is a missile. It’s changed since then, because they now have the guided missiles and things such as that.  But at that time, anything which went through the air was a missile. And that’s the way the wrote it up, and that’s the way we signed for it.
GUNN : When you say that you signed a receipt for that, I’d like to show you a document marked Exhibit No. 69, and ask YOU whether that’s a
reproduction of the receipt that you signed?
O'NEILL: Yes .And it says a missile. There were two pieces of it there. But that is correct, yes.
GUNN:  Did you sign any receipts other than the one represented by Exhibit No. 69?
O'NEILL:  No, sir

From the ARRB Deposition of James Sibert:

SIBERT:  Yes, I recall. I’d Iike to elaborate a little further on this. Here,  we get to this term “missile”.  Now, some things I’ve read about the agents giving a receipt -This receipt was prepared by Navy personnel. I think a Navy corpsman typed it up. And this terminology is U.S. Navy about the “missile”. Now, had I been preparing or making out a receipt and giving it to them, I would have said “fragments” here. This is another thing that’s been kicked
 around a lot in books and everything. I’ve gotsome notes here from a guy who called me about this very thing, a “missile”.
 GUNN: Other than the document that’s now marked Exhibit No. 69, did you sign any other receipts on the night of November 22nd/23rd related to fragments or missiles?
SIBERT: No
...
GUNN: And the document that we have here, Exhibit 69. was attached in a sense to Commission Exhibit 843 - the bottle that’s in front of you?
SIBERT: Right
78
JFK Assassination Discussion & Debate / Re: CTer vs Logic
« Last post by Michael T. Griffith on Yesterday at 02:46:31 PM »
Gerry, this is unlike you.

But, if we must talk about which side relies on horrible logic. . . .

-- Shall we talk about your side's egregiously illogical attempt to explain the location of the holes in the back of JFK's shirt and coat with the demonstrably false bunched-clothing theory, which requires the assumption that the shirt and coat bunched in nearly perfect correspondence with each other, never mind that the photo taken closest to the time of the shot shows that JFK's coat was lying nearly flat, and never mind that the one motorcade photo that you guys cite (Croft 3) does not show a bunch that was large enough and in the right location to cause a bullet that hit at C3/C4 (per the WC) or T1 (per the HSCA FPP) to create two holes that were over 5 inches below the collar?

-- Shall we talk about your theory that, yes, all the motorcade photos in evidence show JFK's tie knot centered in the middle of the collar band, but that just before the bullet hit, the tie knot shifted just enough to allow the bullet to nick the tie knot's left edge, not to mention the fact that both evidence photos of the knot show the nick was not on the left edge but was inward from it?

-- Shall we talk about your theory that JFK's throat wound was small (5-7 mm), neat, and punched inward because the collar band created a "shoring" effect, tightening the skin to enable the wound to have an entry-like appearance, even though, according to your side, the wound was below the collar band, and even though forensic science tells us that shored wounds will not look like that?

-- Shall we talk about your theory that numerous medical professionals and federal agents mistook a wound above JFK's right ear for a wound that was several inches farther back and lower and that included about half of the right side of the occipital bone, from which cerebellar tissue could be seen oozing? Mind you, these witnesses include the two nurses who cleaned the wound and packed it with gauze and the three morticians who reassembled the skull after the autopsy, in addition to a federal agent who described the wound as "right-rear" after seeing it up close for several minutes and then seeing it again when he was taken to the morgue for the express purpose of viewing JFK's wounds.

We're supposed to believe that not one of those people could tell the difference between a gaping wound above the right ear and a wound in the right occipital-parietal area. This is an especially vacuous theory if the autopsy photos of the back of the head are accurate, since they show the rear of the head to be entirely intact.

-- Shall we talk about your side's embarrassing response to the historic optical-density measurements done by Dr. Mantik, Dr. Chessar, Dr. DeSalles, and Dr. Aguilar, which prove, among other things, that the skull x-rays show far, far more missing brain (2/3 of the right cerebrum) than the autopsy brain photos show (per Baden, "less than 1-2 ounces")?

Allow me to add that years earlier, Dr. Fred Hodges, one of the leading radiologists in his day, found that the x-rays show a large part of the right brain to be missing, and that Dr. Humes himself told JAMA that 2/3 of the right cerebrum was blasted away, and that their disclosures are supported by the accounts of a number of witnesses, including the one mortician who commented on the amount of missing brain, who reported that a large part of JFK's brain was missing.

Really, you guys are in no position to be accusing others of faulty logic.

79
JFK Assassination Discussion & Debate / Re: CTer vs Logic
« Last post by John Corbett on Yesterday at 02:42:58 PM »
That video is funny but I have to disagree with one thing. When CTs try to apply logic, they usually fall flat on their faces.
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JFK Assassination Discussion & Debate / Re: The First Shot
« Last post by John Corbett on Yesterday at 02:40:58 PM »
There was no chip in the concrete.  It was a lead smear. There was no concrete missing. See Shaneyfelt Ex.26, 21H472

Do you think a smear could have caused Tague's facial injury?
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