JFK Assassination Forum

When I agree with what's in the official record you hate me.
When I disagree with what's in the official record you hate me.

At least you're consistent! LOL!

Anyway, the WC Report and the Official Volumes isn't the Bible written by the word of God, and I'm allowed to disagree with certain insignificant aspects and in this case regarding Frazier, it ultimately doesn't matter what Frazier says about the size of the bag, because;

The bag was the perfect size for the rifle.
The bag had multiple Oswald prints.
The bag was discovered in the Sniper's nest next to the relatively fresh Oswald prints.
The bag was on the other side of the floor where Oswald's rifle was found.
The bag's location in Frazier's car was lied about by Oswald, because obviously the bag was too big to carry it on his lap.
The Bag's contents were lied about by Oswald who said to Frazier that the contents were curtain rods and told the Police the bag contained his lunch.

JohnM

They believe in two Oswalds, two shooters, two autopsies, two Zapruder films, why not two John Myttons?

It's always 1964 with the conspiracy believers. As if the Warren Commission is the only investigation we've had into the assassination. Sixty plus years of investigations by several generations of Americans in the government and outside of it. Investigative reporters, scholars, historians have all looked, directly and indirectly, into the assassination. Histories of the CIA, the FBI have been done. Biographies on the major figures have been compiled.

All of this additional information, it fills half a library, volumes of it. Should we simply dismiss all of this as just "the Warren Commission?"

I note that J&G Sales in Prescott, from which I've bought guns in the past, has Carcanos in reasonable condition for around $200.

But this one, tricked out to match Oswald's, went for $2,345: https://www.gunsinternational.com/guns-for-sale-online/rifles/rifles---italian-sporting/jfk-oswald-repro-rifle---scope-carcano-model-1938-ts-6-5x52mm-carbine-c-r-wwii-extremely-similar-to-the-one-used-by-lee-harvey-oswald.cfm?gun_id=101591646

Another, documented to be from Klein's, had an estimated auction value of $2,500 to $5,000: https://www.rockislandauction.com/detail/50/3373/carcano-1938-carbine-65-mm

Not as much as I waste on golf clubs, I suppose.

Yes, the ones that are the same model as C399 have become rare due to collectors wanting them. I will likely settle for one that is similar enough for experimentation and leave the collectible ones alone. It might be different if I was loaded with a lot more money.   

A classic example of someone who didn't pay much attention is Buell Wesley Frazier, he repeatedly says that he never payed much attention to the paper sack and why should he have, they were just innocuous "curtain rods" in a plain brown paper bag and when Frazier did see Oswald holding the bag in his famous recollection that has now become CT gospel of "armpit to cupped hand" that was only from a distance and from behind. But I have a sneaking suspicion that naïve Frazier initially never did pay much attention to the bag but as the horror of the events became clear and his sudden realization that he transported Oswald with his rifle to work, Frazier in an effort to distance himself from the assassination, started "remembering" events a little differently.

Mr. BALL - All right. When you got in the car did you say anything to him or did he say anything to you?
Mr. FRAZIER - Let's see, when I got in the car I have a kind of habit of glancing over my shoulder and so at that time I noticed there was a package laying on the back seat, I didn't pay too much attention and I said, "What's the package, Lee?"
And he said, "Curtain rods," and I said, "Oh, yes, you told me you was going to bring some today."
That is the reason, the main reason he was going over there that Thursday afternoon when he was to bring back some curtain rods, so I didn't think any more about it when he told me that.

Mr. BALL - Did it look to you as if there was something heavy in the package?
Mr. FRAZIER - Well, I will be frank with you, I didn't pay much attention to the package because like I say before and after he told me that it was curtain rods and I didn't pay any attention to it, and he never had lied to me before so I never did have any reason to doubt his word.

Mr. BALL - Well, from the way he carried it, the way he walked, did it appear he was carrying something that had more than the weight of a paper?
Mr. FRAZIER - Well, I say, you know like I say, I didn't pay much attention to the package other than I knew he had it under his arm and I didn't pay too much attention the way he was walking because I was walking along there looking at the railroad cars and watching the men on the diesel switch them cars and I didn't pay too much attention on how he carried the package at all.

Mr. BALL - You will notice that this bag which is the colored bag, FBI Exhibit No. 10, is folded over. Was it folded over when you saw it the first time, folded over to the end?
Mr. FRAZIER - I will say I am not sure about that, whether it was folded over or not, because, like I say, I didn't pay that much attention to it.

Mr. BALL - But are you sure that his hand was at the end of the package or at the side of the package?
Mr. FRAZIER - Like I said, I remember I didn't look at the package very much, paying much attention, but when I did look at it he did have his hands on the package like that.

Mr. BALL - Mr. Frazier, we have here this Exhibit No. 364 which is a sack and in that we have put a dismantled gun. Don't pay any attention to that. Will you stand up here and put this under your arm and then take a hold of it at the side?
Now, is that anywhere near similar to the way that Oswald carried the package?
Mr. FRAZIER - Well, you know, like I said now, I said I didn't pay much attention--

And to be honest I don't blame Frazier he was just a 19 year old kid who was used by a killer, in fact I think others also saw the brown paper package but just kept their mouths shut, Dougherty who was another well intentioned but not quite all there employee, testified to the following. Even though Dougherty's testimony was a bit bonkers, this should have been followed up.

Mr. BALL - Did you ever see Lee Oswald carry any sort of large package?
Mr. DOUGHERTY - Well, I didn't, but some of the fellows said they did.
Mr. BALL - Who said that?
Mr. DOUGHERTY - Well, Bill Shelley, he told me that he thought he saw him carrying a fairly good-sized package.
Mr. BALL - When did Shelley tell you that?
Mr. DOUGHERTY - Well, it was--the day after it happened.

JohnM

Yes, Frazier's testimony was what first alerted me to this CT game. The number of times he said "I really wasn't paying much attention" literally leaps off the page. Then we factor in the reality that there was utterly no reason for him to have been paying much attention. Yet it is now conspiracy gospel that Oswald was carrying a package tucked under his armpit that was too short to be the rifle.

I think we do have to be somewhat impressed with Frazier and Randle sticking to their guns (pun?) about the package being too short. It seemingly would have been easy for them to cave in on that. Of course, that cuts both ways - the WC (supposedly) could intimidate doctors and other witnesses into toeing the party line, but not folksy Buell and Linnie Mae - really? Frazier is instructive in another way: his pathetic metamorphosis into the story he tells today should be instructive as to how seriously to take any of these latter-day tales.

I'm always struck by real-life incidents. Try to recall what you had for lunch yesterday, or what your wife (or maybe you!) was wearing yesterday. Unless your wife was wearing a Weidmann Beer t-shirt, it isn't easy. Yet everyone connected with the events of 11-22 is assumed by the CT community to have had a photographic memory. If their recall fits the CT narrative, it becomes conspiracy gospel. If not, they are lying because someone "got to them." And on it goes.

This from Hornady [ammo manufacturer]:

https://static.hornady.media/site/hornady/files/obsolete-data/6-5-x-52mm-carcano.pdf

Carcano rifles have become popular collector firearms again, recent imports
and the availability of accurate information, ammunition and components have
helped to make it more attractive. The first of the 6.5 mm military cartridges to
appear was near the end of the 19th century. The Carcano’s history has been
plagued by a great deal of negative press and criticism, mainly the result of
misinformation and lack of understanding of the design.
The Carcano’s action design is by no means weak, tests performed by P.O.
Ackley and several others were unable to cause action failure. However, surplus
rifles should all be thoroughly inspected by a competent gunsmith before firing.
Carcano rifles are built with a .257" bore and .268" grooves. This was done to
extend barrel life. The rifles are, by virtue of this, not generally accurate with
conventional .264" 6.5 mm bullets. Hornady now produces a .267" 160 grain
Round Nose bullet designed specifically for Carcano rifles. We have achieved
excellent accuracy with this bullet and the loads listed here, our best results
came from H 414 and WIN 760.
Historically, Norma has been the only source for Boxer primed Carcano
cartridge cases, these cases have an extractor groove that is too narrow and
does not function properly in the stripper clip and eject with difficulty. Cases
recently made available by Privi Partizan have the proper groove dimension and
functioned flawlessly in our test rifle.


I believe that the above helps explain why some folks consider the Carcano to be undesirable. However, as stated above, with the correct ammo these rifles tend to have excellent accuracy.

   In my opinion Oswald's job was to set up the sniper's nest. His prints would be found on the boxes inside the sniper's nest, but order filling/handling boxes with books inside them was his job. Easily explaining his prints being on those boxes. After setting up the sniper's nest, he was instructed to establish his alibi by being inside the 2nd Floor Lunchroom. That's exactly where Baker and Truly found him.

In my opinion Oswald's job was to set up the sniper's nest.

First of all I appreciate that you are trying to create a narrative because most CT's are too gutless to explain their beliefs, because most likely they know that any alternative to the official version ultimately never makes sense.
Oswald was nobody's lapdog, he was arrogant and fiercely independent, I can't imagine a scenario where some conspirators could get Oswald to construct a sniper's nest for someone else to take shots from, even if Oswald was told that these sniper's were just taking pot shots, how stupid do we have to believe that Oswald was? But if Oswald built the sniper's nest for himself then that is perfectly logical and fits Oswald's psychological profile.

After setting up the sniper's nest, he was instructed to establish his alibi by being inside the 2nd Floor Lunchroom.

This old chestnut, why have Oswald be in a space where people frequent? If Oswald was seen in the lunchroom as the shots were fired, he would have a great alibi but that's obviously not the plan. Wouldn't the plan be planting Oswald's rifle on the 6th floor so Oswald would clearly be linked to the assassination, that's kind of a no brainer.

That's exactly where Baker and Truly found him.

Well not exactly, Oswald wasn't seated within the 2nd floor lunchroom but was on foot entering the second floor lunchroom. And again the official narrative makes more sense, Oswald coming down from the 6th floor quickly ducked into the lunchroom after he heard Truly shout up the elevator shaft.

JohnM