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71
With my chest and hips facing forward I can extend the right arm to the rear reaching back as far as possible and the left extending to the front as far as possible. This puts the right shoulder behind me and the left in front. So with my hips facing in a 12 o'clock position my shoulders turn to about a 1:30 position or 45 degrees.  I suspect I am not anatomically unique in that respect.  My upper chest does turn a bit but not as much as the shoulders.
Do you see JBC reaching his right arm to the rear. If not, your whole exercise is pointless.
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The twist occurs because each rib is connected by a flexible joint to its own vertebra in the spine and the vertebra are connected to each other by flexible material that allow each vertebra to turn a different amount than its immediate neighbours. If a person has had back surgery resulting in fused vertebrae, the ability to twist is lost for those vertebrae.  But Connally appears to have had a normal spine.
 

The wound was lateral to the lateral edge of the right scapula. It missed the scapula. The posterior border of the axilla or armpit is the lateral edge of the scapula. See:
https://teachmeanatomy.info/upper-limb/areas/axilla/

The author shows a diagram of the (left) axilla or armpit region from above which shows that the anterior surface of the scapula forms the posterior boundary of the axilla:



and from the front it shows the right axilla:



The armpit region actually changes depending on the positions of the shoulders and ribs.  But you can easily see that any bullet that misses the scapula enters the armpit.

With Connally turned sharply right as he was in z254 in Altgens 6, the path from the SN looks like this:



Quit trying to play doctor. Your arguments are silly enough as a layman.
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So by entering laterally missing the scapula it hits the fifth rib with a significant impact, deflects right, passes along the fifth rib to about mid-axilla and then passes through the fifth rib and exits an inch or so below the right nipple, (which has moved to the right). 

I don't see the bullet path through JBC at z271 to be a problem if the bullet deflected to the right on impacting the fifth rib (and bending it so much that it fractured at the spine).  I don't see how it could not have deflected given the evidence of impact. By deflecting, instead of going through the lung it went around the pulmonary cavity exiting below the right nipple before then hitting the right forearm.


All I can say is that the evidence says he was hit there (the first shot hitting JFK, the second hitting JBC which was closer to the third shot that hit JFK in the head).  Not my interpretation of the evidence: just the evidence at face value. If you think it is impossible you need to show why.  Just spewing a bunch of pejoratives at it doesn't do anything, other than lower the quality of the discussion.

In order to save this turkey of a scenario you dreamed up years ago, you keep sounding more and more foolish. In order to buy this crapola, we would have to believe:

1. Oswald fired at JFK while he was still passing under the tree when all he had to do is wait on more second to have a clear shot.
2. JFK and JBC were both hit at Z193, but neither reacted immediately. JFK slowly and calmly started to lower his right arm while JBC just continued to turn to look over his right shoulder oblivious to a deep puncture wound in his thigh.
3. Almost two seconds later at Z226, both men exhibited a delayed reaction to being shot at exactly the same instant when both men suddenly and dramatically flipped their arms upward, JFK in reaction to his throat wound and JBC to his thigh wound.
4. JBC began twisting to his right and doubled over in reaction to being shot in the thigh, even though he said he did that in reaction to having been shot in the back. Amazing how willing you are to disregard witnesses when they don't fit your BS story.
5. JBC, continued to turn dramatically in a clockwise direction until he was facing JFK and the shooter, all in reaction to being shot in the thigh.
6. With JBC turned to the rear and his shoulders roughly parallel to the sides of the car and Oswald behind him and slightly right, Oswald managed to fire a shot into his back near his right armpit, even though he had no view of JBC's back, and the bullet made about a 60 degree turn to the right to exit under JBC's right nipple.
7. After having fired his first shot, Oswald took 4.3 seconds to take aim for his second shot but completely missed JFK and hit JBC instead.
8. After missing JFK with his second shot after taking 4.3 seconds to aim, Oswald took only 2.3 seconds, the bare minimum time needed to fire an aimed shot with the Carcano, and made a precision headshot, killing JFK.

One of these items is hard to believe. It is preposterous to believe all 8 of these things could have happened. Do you ever wonder why after all these years, no one else has ever looked at the evidence and reached these same conclusions? Do you really think you have figured out something that eluded armies of researchers, both LNs and CTs, for six decades. You are a cult of one. That alone should tell you how silly your scenario is. That scenario exists only in your head.
72
So if Z271 is hitting JC at 2000ft/sec, an impact which JC recalled , surely there should be some forward moment from that impact. Where is it?
Do you not see movement of JBC here:



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All I see in this Z270-Z280 range is a movement of JC leaning BACK while his shoulder line is still approx parallel with the right side door of the limo. Nothing anywhere near like the very dramatic movement forward  of JC at Z224 by the SBT bullet which was  only 1500ft/sec.

The momentum transfer is in the direction the car is moving.
73
Hello Everyone,

This is my first post - apologies if this topic has been broached before, I was unable to find it using the search feature.

I have followed and tracked the statements recorded by David Lifton and Doug Horne for many years.  I feel I have stitched together the - admittedly complex and at times hard to believe - timeline of events concerning the casket(s) and body from Parkland to Bethesda.

The one piece of the puzzle which I cannot fit is based on an "off the record" conversation between David Lifton and Richard Lipsey where no recording equipment was permitted or used.

Lipsey stated - and Lifton directly quoted him - that JFK's left arm was raised like a "Heil Hitler salute" when he saw the body at Bethesda.  Furthermore, Lipsey said that "Humes had to jump on the body and lower it with his knee."

Lifton has discussed this in a few online videos including this series -
Lifton proceeded to hypothesise why the left arm - and only the left arm - was raised.  He implied that this was due to storage conditions for the body aboard the luggage compartment of Air Force 1.

Irrespective of how it was raised, if we take Lipsey at his word, we assume the arm was as raised as it was, I have a major problem.

What I know to be true is that the body was delivered inside a "zipped body bag" inside a "shipping casket" by helicopter, then black cadillac hearse to the back door of the Bethesday morgue at rougly 6:35pm.

Looking at both the zipped body bag (as cofirmed by Paul O'Connor at Bethesday) and the grey shipping casket (as confirmed by Jim Jenkins at Bethesda) I can't physically see how JFK's arm could have been raised at all.  There just isn't the room inside the body bag NOR the casket.

I would warmly welcome this great community to challenge me on this and I am open to being convinced that this is simply a false statement from Lipsey - he is the only person as far as I know that stated this. Equally, I'm open to being told that the body bags have plenty of room for a raised arm - but logistically, I'm sceptical.

I'm looking forward to your comments.

Thank you.
74
Which does nothing to improve on the inaccuracy of them.You seem to have a goofy idea that the human torso can twist like a rubber band. The torso moves as a unit and the shoulders can move very little independently of the torso. Anyone can try this out for themselves. See how much they can rotate their shoulders while keeping the torso square to the front. Very little. The torso does not twist. The chest and abdomen rotate together. There is no twisting.
 
With my chest and hips facing forward I can extend the right arm to the rear reaching back as far as possible and the left extending to the front as far as possible. This puts the right shoulder behind me and the left in front. So with my hips facing in a 12 o'clock position my shoulders turn to about a 1:30 position or 45 degrees.  I suspect I am not anatomically unique in that respect.  My upper chest does turn a bit but not as much as the shoulders.

The twist occurs because each rib is connected by a flexible joint to its own vertebra in the spine and the vertebra are connected to each other by flexible material that allow each vertebra to turn a different amount than its immediate neighbours. If a person has had back surgery resulting in fused vertebrae, the ability to twist is lost for those vertebrae.  But Connally appears to have had a normal spine.

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The wound was not in the armpit. It was in his BACK near the armpit.


The wound was lateral to the lateral edge of the right scapula. It missed the scapula. The posterior border of the axilla or armpit is the lateral edge of the scapula. See:
https://teachmeanatomy.info/upper-limb/areas/axilla/

The author shows a diagram of the (left) axilla or armpit region from above which shows that the anterior surface of the scapula forms the posterior boundary of the axilla:



and from the front it shows the right axilla:



The armpit region actually changes depending on the positions of the shoulders and ribs.  But you can easily see that any bullet that misses the scapula enters the armpit.

With Connally turned sharply right as he was in z254 in Altgens 6, the path from the SN looks like this:



So by entering laterally missing the scapula it hits the fifth rib with a significant impact, deflects right, passes along the fifth rib to about mid-axilla and then passes through the fifth rib and exits an inch or so below the right nipple, (which has moved to the right). 

I don't see the bullet path through JBC at z271 to be a problem if the bullet deflected to the right on impacting the fifth rib (and bending it so much that it fractured at the spine).  I don't see how it could not have deflected given the evidence of impact. By deflecting, instead of going through the lung it went around the pulmonary cavity exiting below the right nipple before then hitting the right forearm.


All I can say is that the evidence says he was hit there (the first shot hitting JFK, the second hitting JBC which was closer to the third shot that hit JFK in the head).  Not my interpretation of the evidence: just the evidence at face value. If you think it is impossible you need to show why.  Just spewing a bunch of pejoratives at it doesn't do anything, other than lower the quality of the discussion.
75
Did you happen to notice where JFK hit the seat? It was on the far right side. That shoots down the claim he went "back and to the left". He was already leaning to his left when the bullet struck his head. From that left leaning position, he went straight back.

While impossible to prove, the most likely explanation for JFK's rearward movement is a neuro-muscular reaction to the massive brain trauma. Also a contributing to the rearward movement could be the so called jet effect caused by the force full ejection of matter from the front of the head propelling him backward. I don't think that force would be enough to cause the backward movement by itself, but it probably was a contributing factor.

What we can rule out is the force of the bullet driving JFK backward. Bullets are two small and don't have that much throw weight. They only transfer a small amount of momentum to the body being struck. I have shot empty aluminum cans with a .44 Magnum and it usually doesn't even knock the cans down. That's because the cans offer almost no resistance to the bullet. There's almost no momentum transfer. Bullets throwing human bodies around like rag dolls is a Hollywood invention done for visual impact. The first time that was done was in the movie Shane. The gunfighter Wilson (Jack Palance)* gunned down a sodbuster whom he had goaded into drawing on him. To create the effect, a rope was tied around the sodbusters waist and as Wilson fired the gun, the sodbuster was yanked backward in an unrealistic manner. Since then, that kind of reaction has become a Hollywood staple in gunfights.

*In the movie Shane, Jack Palance was billed as Walter Jack Palance, a name he kept for several years until dropping the Walter. He was nominated for Best Supporting Actor for his role in Shane. He didn't win for Shane but four decades later he was nominated for the same award for City Slickers and won the Oscar for that performance.

      You have No Idea what I am looking at. And then you assume that JFK was struck with a routine bullet.  "No soup for you"!

      I am extremely familiar with "Shane". "Torrey" and "Wilson" too. Howard Hughes knew what he was doing when he tried to buy that flick.

     Very telling that you would tie a Hollywood Movie into a discussion of the Current Z Film.
76
  Hey John - Have you viewed the higher def Current Z Film(s) posted on You Tube? I have 1 that I prefer, and it clearly shows JFK being HIT with such force that he is PROPELLED BACKWARD into the backrest. JFK is hit with such force the he literally bounces off of the backrest and then falls to the (L) like a tree that has just been cut down.
                  We can argue the bona fides of the Current Z Film, but even hi def copies of that clearly display the impact of a Front (R) shot. The lower def Z Film copies are like watching anything on an old SD Broadcast/TV. Just think back to the stark difference between broadcast SD vs HD. This is why Bart Kamp continues gaining attention. He is posting better definition images. The Current Z Film images being posted on this Forum are outdated. Even the Z Film images that you are posting has all kinds of crappola consistently flying through it. That's a dead giveaway that this "material" dates way back.
                     

Did you happen to notice where JFK hit the seat? It was on the far right side. That shoots down the claim he went "back and to the left". He was already leaning to his left when the bullet struck his head. From that left leaning position, he went straight back.

While impossible to prove, the most likely explanation for JFK's rearward movement is a neuro-muscular reaction to the massive brain trauma. Also a contributing to the rearward movement could be the so called jet effect caused by the force full ejection of matter from the front of the head propelling him backward. I don't think that force would be enough to cause the backward movement by itself, but it probably was a contributing factor.

What we can rule out is the force of the bullet driving JFK backward. Bullets are two small and don't have that much throw weight. They only transfer a small amount of momentum to the body being struck. I have shot empty aluminum cans with a .44 Magnum and it usually doesn't even knock the cans down. That's because the cans offer almost no resistance to the bullet. There's almost no momentum transfer. Bullets throwing human bodies around like rag dolls is a Hollywood invention done for visual impact. The first time that was done was in the movie Shane. The gunfighter Wilson (Jack Palance)* gunned down a sodbuster whom he had goaded into drawing on him. To create the effect, a rope was tied around the sodbusters waist and as Wilson fired the gun, the sodbuster was yanked backward in an unrealistic manner. Since then, that kind of reaction has become a Hollywood staple in gunfights.

*In the movie Shane, Jack Palance was billed as Walter Jack Palance, a name he kept for several years until dropping the Walter. He was nominated for Best Supporting Actor for his role in Shane. He didn't win for Shane but four decades later he was nominated for the same award for City Slickers and won the Oscar for that performance.
77

  Hey John - Have you viewed the higher def Current Z Film(s) posted on You Tube? I have 1 that I prefer, and it clearly shows JFK being HIT with such force that he is PROPELLED BACKWARD into the backrest. JFK is hit with such force the he literally bounces off of the backrest and then falls to the (L) like a tree that has just been cut down.
                  We can argue the bona fides of the Current Z Film, but even hi def copies of that clearly display the impact of a Front (R) shot. The lower def Z Film copies are like watching anything on an old SD Broadcast/TV. Just think back to the stark difference between broadcast SD vs HD. This is why Bart Kamp continues gaining attention. He is posting better definition images. The Current Z Film images being posted on this Forum are outdated. Even the Z Film images that you are posting has all kinds of crappola consistently flying through it. That's a dead giveaway that this "material" dates way back.
                     
78
JFK Assassination Plus General Discussion And Debate / Re: JFK Videos
« Last post by John Corbett on May 07, 2026, 04:23:43 PM »
Vigilantism can never be defended or supported John. Who gets to decide when the act can be done? The vigilante? How many Leo Franks do we need to have? Isn't one enough?

I don't defend or support vigilantism. That doesn't mean I can't be happy about it when it happens to someone like Oswald.
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If Ruby hadn't shot Oswald none of us would be here. Oswald's lies would have been exposed, his acts revealed. He couldn't explain where he was, why he left work, why he was in that movie theater, how the BYPs were made, and on and on. His alibis would have fallen apart.

You underestimate the CT mindset. James Earl Ray confessed and was convicted and that hasn't stopped people from theorizing he was part of a conspiracy. Sirhan Sirhan gunned RFK down in a crowded room and still there are people who don't even think he was a lone gunman or even that he fired the shots. His conviction didn't stop the wild speculation. Neither would Oswald's. There are people who would claim he had been railroaded.
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More important, if Ruby's act is defensible then does that mean the conspiracy crowd could be justified in shooting Ruth Paine when she lived? Some of them are certain she was one of the murderers; in fact they believe there's more evidence of her culpability than Oswald. So one of them could have shot her like Ruby shot Oswald? How about Michael Paine? Earl Warren? Hugh Aynesworth? Hoover? LBJ? Marina? There's a long list of people the conspiracy crowd is convinced murdered JFK. Would shooting them be justified? Like Ruby's act? Vigilantism for me but not for thee? How could you argue their acts, shooting Ruth Paine, was wrong?

Again, I don't justify Ruby's killing of Oswald, but I'm still glad he did it.
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No, Ruby's act is indefensible on many levels.

For those not familiar, here is the story of Leo Frank: https://www.history.com/articles/leo-frank-lynching
I can applaud Ruby's act without defending it. Oswald's murder was a terrible thing but if it was going to happen to somebody, Oswald was a damn good choice.
79
The day after the assassination, about 24 hours later, LBJ calls Hoover for an update on the investigation. Hoover is confused and provides LBJ, even about a day later, with astonishingly incorrect information.

Like this (he tells LBJ that Oswald killed a police officer during a gun battle in the theater):



Transcript is here: https://www.history-matters.com/archive/jfk/lbjlib/phone_calls/Nov_1963/html/LBJ-Nov-1963_0029a.htm
80
JFK Assassination Plus General Discussion And Debate / Re: JFK Videos
« Last post by Steve M. Galbraith on May 07, 2026, 03:29:20 PM »
I was four days short of my 12th birthday was Oswald was shot. I was out playing touch football in our neighbor's yard when my younger sister came running out of their house and over to our house yelling, "Mom, somebody shot Oswald.". A man followed her out and we asked him if it was true. He said, "Yeah, somebody just walked up and BOOM". The football game ended abruptly, and I went back home and saw the replay. I've always regretted I didn't get to see it happen live. I think it was about an hour and a half later, NBC's Frank McGee came on the air and announced Oswald had died. I remember being happy to hear that and I've never felt any different for one second since. I'm glad that little bastard never got to enjoy his newfound notoriety. I think he was looking forward to that, even knowing he would probably get the death penalty. It's unlikely the sentence would have been carried out. An 86-year-old Oswald might still be thumbing his nose at us from his jail cell. Jack Ruby handed down a death sentence Oswald couldn't appeal. Nice shot, Jack. I hope Oswald suffered greatly before he died.
Vigilantism can never be defended or supported John. Who gets to decide when the act can be done? The vigilante? How many Leo Franks do we need to have? Isn't one enough?

If Ruby hadn't shot Oswald none of us would be here. Oswald's lies would have been exposed, his acts revealed. He couldn't explain where he was, why he left work, why he was in that movie theater, how the BYPs were made, and on and on. His alibis would have fallen apart.

More important, if Ruby's act is defensible then does that mean the conspiracy crowd could be justified in shooting Ruth Paine when she lived? Some of them are certain she was one of the murderers; in fact they believe there's more evidence of her culpability than Oswald. So one of them could have shot her like Ruby shot Oswald? How about Michael Paine? Earl Warren? Hugh Aynesworth? Hoover? LBJ? Marina? There's a long list of people the conspiracy crowd is convinced murdered JFK. Would shooting them be justified? Like Ruby's act? Vigilantism for me but not for thee? How could you argue their acts, shooting Ruth Paine, was wrong?

No, Ruby's act is indefensible on many levels.

For those not familiar, here is the story of Leo Frank: https://www.history.com/articles/leo-frank-lynching
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