JFK Assassination Forum

Tom explained it but I still don't understand it.

fred

Well, that's one vote for my sanity.

To TG: I am not interested in being "convinced." I am not interested in how the KGB stuff makes sense to you, because that would tell me nothing.

I simply wish to know if this KGB stuff actually makes sense to anyone else and, if so, whether that individual would care to explain it in 200 words or less of plain English, without reference to Bagley, Solie and the rest of TG's pantheon.

Here, I'll make it easy: We will assume arguendo, for purposes of this post only, that everything TG says is absolutely true. Please, just connect the dots in plain English in a way that makes any rational sense at all. Just do that. What would it have looked like, out there in the real world? How would it have worked, out there in the real world?

This is pretty much the challenge I issue to every Gee-Whiz True Believer in some notion that strikes me as nonsense.

Tom explained it but I still don't understand it.

fred

Is anyone other than Tom able to follow the logic of what I lovingly call the “KGB stuff?" It quickly loses me. (Don’t bother, TG. You’re on Eternal Ignore. I now wear a COVID mask to avoid being exposed to even the tiniest micro-nuttiness from your invisible posts. I’m just wondering if anyone else can actually follow whatever it is TG is talking about.)

As I understand it (while not pretending to actually understand it) ...

LHO is dispatched to the USSR, apparently unwittingly, to ferret out moles (I love saying that!  ). While there, he attends the mysterious “KGB school” in Minsk and is somehow trained for an eventual mission (what mission?) in the U.S., even though those closest to him have absolutely no clue that this is going on. He returns to the U.S., presumably at the behest of his KGB masters, with his KGB-indoctrinated wife Marina (indoctrinated when and for what purpose?), and they proceed to live pretty much like impoverished bums (their KGB cover?).

LHO then engages in activities and writes things that are hard to square with any KBG mission (proof of just how clever the KGB is?). The time finally arrives for LHO to assassinate JFK (for what KGB-related purpose?), and Marina then lives the next 60+ years in pretty thorough Texas-housewife obscurity (for what KGB-related purpose?), evolving from a veritable LNer to a CTer (for what KGB-related purpose? was this her KGB mission?).

The supermen of the KGB then spend the next 50+ years destroying America from within via their infiltration of the CIA, the proverbial “long march through the institutions” and whatnot (and having rather astonishing success as far as I can tell). The chaotic Monty Python skit that calls itself the “JFKA research community” is apparently part of this dastardly plot (how? why?).

In 2016, the KGB, or at least KGB guy Putin, then causes Kremlin stooge The Donald to defeat Hillary Clinton, even though Hillary is a card-carrying "Rules for Radicals" sort of leftie and The Donald’s platform consists mostly of promises to unravel all that the KGB has accomplished over the past 50+ years (how does that work?). But wait, then Putin and the supermen of the KGB fumble the ball and Team Biden is somehow elected in 2020 (what the heck?). Team Biden, which apparently doesn't grasp the KGB's new Trumpian agenda, then does its best to restore the long march through the institutions, doing quite an excellent job of it, and Team Kamala promises to pretty well finish off the destruction of America (why would Putin and the supermen of the KGB not want this?).

But, no, Vladimir and the gang once again step in and cause their stooge The Donald to be elected in 2024, even though The Donald is now even more hellbent to stop the long march through the institutions and restore America to its former glory as a chest-thumping, war-mongering capitalist state and may be slightly unhinged to boot (the KGB wants this – why?).

Perhaps I’m just not seeing the Big Picture. Or perhaps I'm actually an unwitting KGB stooge, sent here to ferret out moles! I have literally no idea what the “KGB stuff” is all about or how it makes any sense at all. Anyone seeing it more clearly than I am?

Dear FPR,

All you've got to do is read Tennent H. Bagley's 2007 Yale University Press book, Spy Wars: Moles, Mysteries, and Deadly Games, his 2014 follow-up article, "Ghosts of the Spy Wars," and John M. Newman's 2022 book, Uncovering Popov's Mole (but disregard the part where he says high-level military officers killed JFK because he refused to nuke Peking and Moscow in 1963).

https://archive.org/details/SpyWarsMolesMysteriesAndDeadlyGames

https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.1080/08850607.2014.962362

Newman and I believe that James Angleton's confidant, mentor, and mole-hunting superior in the mole-hunting Office of Security, Bruce Leonard Solie, instead of recently-fired-by-CIA Edward Ellis Smith, was the mole who betrayed CIA's spy, GRU Lt. Col. Pyotr Popov, to KGB General Vladislav Kovshuk (aka Vladimir Komarov) in early 1957 in D.C. movie houses. Newman believes Smith (who went on to become a scholar at the Hoover Institution and a San Francisco banker) and James McCord (of future Watergate notoriety) provided logistical support to Solie.

Factoid: False defector-in-place in Geneva in June 1962 Yuri Nosenko, a putative KGB staff officer, said to Bagley during their first meeting that the most important thing he could tell him was that his putative boss, Kovshuk, had made a special two-week trip to the U.S. in early 1957 to "reestablish contact with 'Andrey,'" a cipher machine mechanic he'd recruited in Moscow in "1949 or 1950." Problem is, it turns out that Kovshuk was in Washington (as a "diplomat" on a two-year gig) for ten months and waited until the ninth one to visit "Andrey" -- burnt out Army Seargent Dayle W. Smith -- whose phone number and address were in the phone book and who never did have access to the cipher machines' rotors or any other classified information.

Newman believes Solie also gave the Soviets the U-2's top-secret specifications in those D.C. movie houses, and that when Popov told his handler in West Berlin in April 1958 that he'd heard a drunken GRU colonel brag at a New Years Eve party that the Kremlin had the U-2's secrets, Solie decided to send someone like (unwitting as to the true nature of the mission) Oswald to Moscow as an ostensible "dangle" in a planned to-fail hunt for "Popov's U-2 Mole" (Solie) in the wrong part of the CIA -- the Soviet Russia Division.

The only problem I have with that part of Newman's theory is that there's an eighteen month gap between the betrayal of Popov and Oswald's arrival in Moscow (ironically(?) on the same day that Popov was publicly arrested after being "played back" against the CIA for a year) where all he had to do was toss his passport on Richard Snyder's desk, announce that he wanted to renounce his American citizenship, become a USSR citizen, and declare to Snyder and the microphones in the walls that he planned to commit espionage against the U.S. -- including telling the Soviets "something of special interest." Newman's reasoning for such a long hiatus is that Solie first had to screen for and recruit Oswald and then Oswald had to learn Russian, but I don't see how being fluent in Russian was a prerequisite for the simple tasks I mentioned above.

Unless, perhaps, Solie intended Oswald to stay in The Worker's Paradise for an extended period of time.

Perhaps . . . gasp . . . within half-a-mile of a KGB school in Minsk.


-- Tom

Is anyone other than Tom able to follow the logic of what I lovingly call the “KGB stuff?" It quickly loses me.

As I understand it (while not pretending to actually understand it) ...

LHO is dispatched to the USSR, apparently unwittingly, to ferret out moles (I love saying that!  ). While there, he attends the mysterious “KGB school” in Minsk and is somehow trained for an eventual mission (what mission?) in the U.S., even though those closest to him have absolutely no clue that this is going on. He returns to the U.S., presumably at the behest of his KGB masters, with his KGB-indoctrinated wife Marina (indoctrinated when and for what purpose?), and they proceed to live pretty much like impoverished bums (their KGB cover?).

LHO then engages in activities and writes things that are hard to square with any KBG mission (proof of just how clever the KGB is?). The time finally arrives for LHO to assassinate JFK (for what KGB-related purpose?), and Marina then lives the next 60+ years in pretty thorough Texas-housewife obscurity (for what KGB-related purpose?), evolving from a veritable LNer to a CTer (for what KGB-related purpose? was this her KGB mission?).

The supermen of the KGB then spend the next 50+ years destroying America from within via their infiltration of the CIA, the proverbial “long march through the institutions” and whatnot (and having rather astonishing success as far as I can tell). The chaotic Monty Python skit that calls itself the “JFKA research community” is apparently part of this dastardly plot (how? why?).

In 2016, the KGB, or at least KGB guy Putin, then causes Kremlin stooge The Donald to defeat Hillary Clinton, even though Hillary is a card-carrying "Rules for Radicals" sort of leftie and The Donald’s platform consists mostly of promises to unravel all that the KGB has accomplished over the past 50+ years (how does that work?). But wait, then Putin and the supermen of the KGB fumble the ball and Team Biden is somehow elected in 2020 (what the heck?). Team Biden, which apparently doesn't grasp the KGB's new Trumpian agenda, then does its best to restore the long march through the institutions, doing quite an excellent job of it, and Team Kamala promises to pretty well finish off the destruction of America (why would Putin and the supermen of the KGB not want this?).

But, no, Vladimir and the gang once again step in and cause their stooge The Donald to be elected in 2024, even though The Donald is now even more hellbent to stop the long march through the institutions and restore America to its former glory as a chest-thumping, war-mongering capitalist state and may be slightly unhinged to boot (the KGB wants this – why?).

Perhaps I’m just not seeing the Big Picture. Or perhaps I'm actually an unwitting KGB stooge, sent here to ferret out moles! I have literally no idea what the “KGB stuff” is all about or how it makes any sense at all. Anyone seeing it more clearly than I am?

Many people certainly described the face as appearing untouched. The "pristine" autopsy photos pretty clearly have the flap pulled back into place. If anyone actually described the rear of the head as intact, he needs to have his own head examined.

(Deleted the photo I had previously described as "hauntingly creepy" because it is, in fact, hauntingly creepy. If there is popular outcry to repost it - probably not, huh? - I shall do so.)