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71
The replies from WC defenders amount to this position:

"Never mind that no bullet fired from the sixth-floor window could have hit JFK's back at an upward angle and then passed through his neck at an upward angle. Never mind that this means no bullet from the sixth-floor window could have exited JFK's throat at a downward angle, much less at a 25-degree downward angle. Never mind that we therefore cannot get a bullet from JFK's throat to Connally's back in the first place, unless we're willing to rule out the sixth-floor window as the source of the shot. Just never mind these facts.

"We will continue to excuse ourselves from credibly dealing with these facts until you provide us with a non-SBT trajectory through Connally -- and the trajectory has to be one that we are willing to accept, but of course we will never accept any such trajectory because that would raise further doubt about the SBT.

"Moreover, we will continue to refuse to acknowledge the self-evident implications of the hard physical evidence of JFK's clothing, specifically, the fact that JFK's tie, including the tie knot, had no bullet hole through it, and that the nick on the tie knot was not on the edge of the knot but was visibly inward from the edge, because acknowledging the import of these facts would mean admitting that no bullet exited the throat. In the case of the SBT, we judge fact by theory, not the other way around."


We should keep in mind that the HSCA FPP's SBT does not merely require that JFK's head was tilted substantially forward but that his upper torso was tilted substantially forward as well, as Dr. Baden was nice enough to demonstrate.

As many here know, I am by no means the first researcher to note that the HSCA FPP's SBT is actually fatal to the SBT because no photo or footage shows JFK leaning so far forward during the SBT's timeframe. By acknowledging that the WC placed the back wound at least 2.5 inches too high and that the bullet hit and tunneled at an upward angle, the FPP actually destroyed the SBT. Dr. Wecht repeatedly made this point in his presentations on the SBT.

As I documented in a previous reply, both the NOVA and the Dale Myers SBT trajectory animations have JFK's upper torso virtually upright and have his head either upright (NOVA) or tilted only slightly forward (Myers), and they have the bullet traveling a downward path from the back wound to the throat wound.

And, of course, Lattimer's bogus SBT diagrams, which continue to be used by many WC apologists to this very day, show JFK sitting upright with his head upright, place the back wound visibly above the throat wound, show the bullet traveling downward through the neck, and show the bullet exiting the neck at a downward angle of at least 20 degrees.

No WC apologist has yet produced an SBT trajectory illustration that takes into account the forensic facts pointed out by the HSCA FPP regarding the back wound's upward trajectory, the upward trajectory through the neck, and the pronounced forward lean required to make that trajectory align with the sixth-floor window.

Indeed, even the NASA expert whom the HSCA hired to do their headshot and SBT trajectory analyses, Dr. Thomas Canning, simply ignored the HSCA FPP's diagram showing JFK's forward lean (7 HSCA 100, Figure 12) and instead showed JFK sitting virtually upright with his head virtually upright as well (2 HSCA 177, JFK Exhibit F-142). Incredibly, Canning also impossibly showed the back wound above the throat wound and showed the bullet exiting at a point visibly below JFK's throat wound.

Thank you Sherlock for helping with seeing the light. The whole investigation with certain known facts is the wrong way to view the assassination. Make up your own facts, that is way better. Claim people stated things that they didn't. The shooter was not on the sixth floor 8 feet above Williams, Norman, and Jarmin. He was really down on the street about level with the trunk of the car. Who would have thunk it. Who cares about JFK's and JBC's wounds and the bullet trajectory through their bodies. Obviously the doctors had no idea what they were doing. Greer should have driven the car down the road to a pet clinic and JFK and JBC would have gotten better medical care by people who knew all about gunshot wounds. I am sorry, I had this all wrong about you, I need to add the word savant to the word idiot.

Thanks Michael for all you do. Your knowledge of the assassination is unsurpassed. We all owe you a deep debt of gratitude. It is a debt that can never be repaid.
72
Another of your FUBAR premises for which you are so well known. No bullet hit JFK in the back on the an upward angle. If you think so, tell us where it could ahve been fired from that made sense. 

Michael T. Griffith professes a Christian faith. Yet he continues to repeat the false claim that the HSCA's FPP concluded that the bullet entered JFK at an upward angle? What are reasonable people to make of that? Is he an unrepentant liar or is he just stupid? I honestly don't know for sure, but I'm going to give him the benefit of doubt that it's the latter. For now anyway.
73
The replies from WC defenders amount to this position:

"Never mind that no bullet fired from the sixth-floor window could have hit JFK's back at an upward angle and then passed through his neck at an upward angle. Never mind that this means no bullet from the sixth-floor window could have exited JFK's throat at a downward angle, much less at a 25-degree downward angle. Never mind that we therefore cannot get a bullet from JFK's throat to Connally's back in the first place, unless we're willing to rule out the sixth-floor window as the source of the shot. Just never mind these facts.

Another of your FUBAR premises for which you are so well known. No bullet hit JFK in the back on an upward angle. If you think so, tell us where it could have been fired from that made sense. 
Quote

"We will continue to excuse ourselves from credibly dealing with these facts until you provide us with a non-SBT trajectory through Connally -- and the trajectory has to be one that we are willing to accept, but of course we will never accept any such trajectory because that would raise further doubt about the SBT.

"Moreover, we will continue to refuse to acknowledge the self-evident implications of the hard physical evidence of JFK's clothing, specifically, the fact that JFK's tie, including the tie knot, had no bullet hole through it, and that the nick on the tie knot was not on the edge of the knot but was visibly inward from the edge, because acknowledging the import of these facts would mean admitting that no bullet exited the throat. In the case of the SBT, we judge fact by theory, not the other way around."[/font]

In addition to your faulty premises, you seem to thrive on refuting strawman arguments that no one has made. It's a lot easier than dealing with things people have actually said in defense of the WCR.
Quote

We should keep in mind that the HSCA FPP's SBT does not merely require that JFK's head was tilted substantially forward but that his upper torso was tilted substantially forward as well, as Dr. Baden was nice enough to demonstrate.

Another of MGT's traits is on display here, conflating two separate issues. The SBT had nothing to do with the head shot.
Quote

As many here know, I am by no means the first researcher to note that the HSCA FPP's SBT is actually fatal to the SBT because no photo or footage shows JFK leaning so far forward during the SBT's timeframe. By acknowledging that the WC placed the back wound at least 2.5 inches too high and that the bullet hit and tunneled at an upward angle, the FPP actually destroyed the SBT. Dr. Wecht repeatedly made this point in his presentations on the SBT.

You seem to know a lot of things that just ain't so.
Quote


As I documented in a previous reply, both the NOVA and the Dale Myers SBT trajectory animations have JFK's upper torso virtually upright and have his head either upright (NOVA) or tilted only slightly forward (Myers), and they have the bullet traveling a downward path from the back wound to the throat wound.

Yes they do and they show the SBT works when JFK and JBC are positioned correctly.
Quote

And, of course, Lattimer's bogus SBT diagrams, which continue to be used by many WC apologists to this very day, show JFK sitting upright with his head upright, place the back wound visibly above the throat wound, show the bullet traveling downward through the neck, and show the bullet exiting the neck at a downward angle of at least 20 degrees.

I've never seen Lattimer's diagrams so I can't speak to their validity. I do know that I'm not going to take your word on what he has said.
Quote

No WC apologist has yet produced an SBT trajectory illustration that takes into account the forensic facts pointed out by the HSCA FPP regarding the back wound's upward trajectory, the upward trajectory through the neck, and the pronounced forward lean required to make that trajectory align with the sixth-floor window.

Indeed, even the NASA expert whom the HSCA hired to do their headshot and SBT trajectory analyses, Dr. Thomas Canning, simply ignored the HSCA FPP's diagram showing JFK's forward lean (7 HSCA 100, Figure 12) and instead showed JFK sitting virtually upright with his head virtually upright as well (2 HSCA 177, JFK Exhibit F-142). Incredibly, Canning also impossibly showed the back wound above the throat wound and showed the bullet exiting at a point visibly below JFK's throat wound.

Misconceptions are not facts whether they are yours or the HSCA's. The HSCA got lot's of things wrong, including their conclusion of a probable fourth shot and a conspiracy to kill JFK. WC defenders are not obligated to also defend the HSCA.
74
JFK Assassination Discussion & Debate / Re: The First Shot
« Last post by Jack Nessan on Today at 01:28:27 AM »


Above is a crop from Bronson with various witnesses (poorly) labelled.
The pic is lifted from Pat Speer's site where he equates this pic to approximately z225
The limo has just passed Templin, Brandt and Newman.
It is just passing Burney and Dishong.
It is almost in front of the Chisms
Charles Brehm is further down the road.

Although witness statements are often contradictory and unreliable when it comes to certain details, there is surely a basic fact the people who were stood on both sides of Elm Street could be sure of - whether or not the limo had passed their position when they heard the first shot.
These are the witness statements from right to left.

John Templin -  I would say, thirty feet past us, we heard what I personally thought was a motorcycle backfire, and I... the president kind of threw his shoulders up a little bit and kind of laid his head back on the back of the seat,

Ernest Brandt - And of course, all I could see above the back seat was his shoulders, his neck, and head…I think the limousine was probably about 60 or 70 feet past us, three or four seconds I guess from the time. It wasn't moving real slow but yet not real fast either, y'know. And--60 or 70 feet past us, then BAM!

Jean Newman - The motorcade had just passed me when I heard something that I thought was a firecracker at first, and the President had just passed me, because after he had just passed, there was a loud report...

Peggy Burney -  The car had passed about 15 feet beyond me when I heard the first shot.

June Dishong - His arm in the air waving… He drops his arm as they go by, possibly 20 feet. Suddenly--a sound. Gun shots?

Faye Chism - “As the President was coming through, I heard this first shot,

John Chism - And just as he got just about in front of me, he turned and waved to the crowd on this side of the street, the right side; at this point I heard what sounded like one shot,

Charles Brehm - I happened to be about fifteen feet away from the President when the first shot hit him...the first shot rang out and I was positive when I saw the look on his face and saw him grab his chest and saw the reaction of his wife that he had been shot.

Templin, Brandt, Newman, Burney and Dishong all state that the limo had just passed them when the first shot sounded.
Brehm states he was looking at JFK's face after the first shot, the limo had not yet reached his position.

The Bronson pic above seems to have pretty much captured the position of the limo as described by the witnesses standing close by on Elm Street. Below is a stripped down version of Dom Roberdeau's map which gives an approximate idea of where the limo was in terms of Z-frames:




Further evidence that the first shot occurred at z222/z223

Before John Chism would not be Z222. He is standing in front of the Stemmons sign. Z218 or earlier by Zapruder film count.
75
Trump is not giving money to anyone.  I support his policies but he often thinks out loud with all sorts of ideas that never come to fruition.  Some of which are terrible.  I think it's entirely possible, however, that AI will create such efficiency and wealth that few may have to work in the near term future.  Not sure what the implications are from that but government policies that promote such efficiencies could result in rewarding citizens with such payments and services.  Maybe providing incentives to be good citizens including reducing crime and promoting art and education.  We are not forever limited to the capitalist vs socialist choices.  The opposition to data centers is futile.  There are legitimate concerns, but it is still coming for good or ill.  China and others are not going to hold back.  The US has no real choice.  Trump knows that.  It would not surprise me if the anti-data center campaign is even being funded by the Chinese.

You are vastly overrating the effect of AI especially in the near term. AI will change the job skills in demand and will assist those in many walks of life but there will always be work that humans must do that AI can't. The AI revolution will vastly increase the demand for people with electrical skills for example. The day that machines will be doing most of the work is a long way off. It won't happen in our lifetimes.
76
A basic analysis of the Z-film shows us both men reacting in an incredibly extreme way beginning around z225 (indicating a shot passing through both of them around z222/z223).
It is baffling that a lot of people can't recognise this.
What is equally baffling is that Nutters believe the bullet that passed through them is CE399. The cursory examination of the condition, the injuries and 'provenance' of CE399 demonstrates, beyond any reasonable doubt, that it had nothing to do with the shot at z222/z223. It is accepted into evidence as a bullet found in Parkland without a single person identifying it as such. This fact alone should have alarm bells ringing.

Perhaps I should have been more specific in the title of the thread. I should have addressed it to CTs who dispute the SBT. A small percentage of CTs do accept the SBT and find their belief in conspiracy for other reasons. I think the primary reason for so many people doubting Oswald acted alone is their doubts about the SBT and for many of those folks, it was the courtroom demonstration performed by Costner/Garrison in Oliver Stone's fictional account of the JFKA. I remember coming out of the movie theater and hearing many of the patrons expressing their doubts about Oswald acting alone based on that scene. It's a shame that Ollie's movie was the primary source of their "knowledge" of the JFKA.
77
A basic analysis of the Z-film shows us both men reacting in an incredibly extreme way beginning around z225 (indicating a shot passing through both of them around z222/z223).
It is baffling that a lot of people can't recognise this.
What is equally baffling is that Nutters believe the bullet that passed through them is CE399. The cursory examination of the condition, the injuries and 'provenance' of CE399 demonstrates, beyond any reasonable doubt, that it had nothing to do with the shot at z222/z223. It is accepted into evidence as a bullet found in Parkland without a single person identifying it as such. This fact alone should have alarm bells ringing.
78
JFK Assassination Discussion & Debate / Re: The First Shot
« Last post by Dan O'meara on Today at 12:34:15 AM »


Above is a crop from Bronson with various witnesses (poorly) labelled.
The pic is lifted from Pat Speer's site where he equates this pic to approximately z225
The limo has just passed Templin, Brandt and Newman.
It is just passing Burney and Dishong.
It is almost in front of the Chisms
Charles Brehm is further down the road.

Although witness statements are often contradictory and unreliable when it comes to certain details, there is surely a basic fact the people who were stood on both sides of Elm Street could be sure of - whether or not the limo had passed their position when they heard the first shot.
These are the witness statements from right to left.

John Templin -  I would say, thirty feet past us, we heard what I personally thought was a motorcycle backfire, and I... the president kind of threw his shoulders up a little bit and kind of laid his head back on the back of the seat,

Ernest Brandt - And of course, all I could see above the back seat was his shoulders, his neck, and head…I think the limousine was probably about 60 or 70 feet past us, three or four seconds I guess from the time. It wasn't moving real slow but yet not real fast either, y'know. And--60 or 70 feet past us, then BAM!

Jean Newman - The motorcade had just passed me when I heard something that I thought was a firecracker at first, and the President had just passed me, because after he had just passed, there was a loud report...

Peggy Burney -  The car had passed about 15 feet beyond me when I heard the first shot.

June Dishong - His arm in the air waving… He drops his arm as they go by, possibly 20 feet. Suddenly--a sound. Gun shots?

Faye Chism - “As the President was coming through, I heard this first shot,

John Chism - And just as he got just about in front of me, he turned and waved to the crowd on this side of the street, the right side; at this point I heard what sounded like one shot,

Charles Brehm - I happened to be about fifteen feet away from the President when the first shot hit him...the first shot rang out and I was positive when I saw the look on his face and saw him grab his chest and saw the reaction of his wife that he had been shot.

Templin, Brandt, Newman, Burney and Dishong all state that the limo had just passed them when the first shot sounded.
Brehm states he was looking at JFK's face after the first shot, the limo had not yet reached his position.

The Bronson pic above seems to have pretty much captured the position of the limo as described by the witnesses standing close by on Elm Street. Below is a stripped down version of Dom Roberdeau's map which gives an approximate idea of where the limo was in terms of Z-frames:




Further evidence that the first shot occurred at z222/z223
79
The "data centers" and AI hoopla is just people being afraid of the unknown. If you fear this, then separate yourself from your cell phone. Certainly DO NOT attach your house heat/air to a cell phone. Buy yourself a "burner" and "break glass in case of fire" if need be. The landline remains.

Dear Stormtrooper Storing,

You have no idea what you're talking about.

-- Tom
80
JFK Assassination Discussion & Debate / Re: The First Shot
« Last post by Dan O'meara on Today at 12:23:27 AM »
There is another way to corroborate a first shot around z222/z223 thanks to the work of Pat Speer and Mark Tyler. It concerns the witness statements of the occupants of the Vice-Presidential car and the Vice-Presidential follow-up car. From these statements it is possible to glean an approximate position for each car at the time of the first shot and from these approximate positions it is possible rule out various theories regarding the first shot.
I will look at a number of theories put forward for when the first shot occurred in relation to the Z-Film:

z133 (and before)
z160
z190
z223 (my own proposal for the first shot)

First, a look at the statements:

VICE PRESIDENTIAL CAR

Hurchel Jacks [Driver] -
"My car had just straightened up from making the left turn. I was looking directly at the President’s car at that time. At that time I heard a shot ring out..."

Rufus Youngblood [Passenger Seat] -
"The motorcade then made a left turn, and the sidewalk crowds
were beginning to diminish in size. I observed a grassy plot to my right in back of a small crowd...I heard an explosion…"

"As we were beginning to go down this incline, all of a sudden there was an explosive noise."
"We had straightened on Elm now and were beginning to move easily down the incline in the wake of the cars ahead. Suddenly there was an explosive noise..."

Senator Yarborough [back left] - 
“as the motorcade went down the slope of Elm Street toward the railroad underpass, a rifle shot was heard by me; a loud blast..."

Lady Bird Johnson [back centre] - 
“we were rounding a curve, going down a hill and suddenly there was a sharp loud report..."
"...suddenly in that brilliant sunshine there was a sharp rifle shot. It  came, I thought, from over my right shoulder."

Lyndon Johnson [back right] - 
"After we had proceeded a short way down Elm Street, I heard a sharp report."

VICE-PRESIDENTIAL FOLLOW-UP CAR

Joe Henry Rich [Driver] -
“We turned off of Houston Street onto Elm Street and that was when I heard the first shot."


Cliff Carter [passenger seat]  - 
"...our car had just made the left hand turn onto Elm and was right along side of the Texas School Book Depository Building when I heard a noise which sounded like a firecracker."

Jerry Kivett [back right] - 
"As the motorcade was approximately 1/3 the way to the underpass, traveling between 10 and 15 miles per hour, I heard a loud noise..."

Warren Taylor [back centre] -
“Our automobile had just turned a corner (the names of the streets are unknown to me) when I heard a bang which sounded to me like a possible firecracker —the sound coming from my right rear."

Thomas (Lem) Johns [back right] - 
"We turned onto Elm Street...We were going downhill...which put the Texas Book Depository on our right, more or less...But we were going down this Elm Street, with my door open. I heard at least two shots.."


10 witnesses in 2 vehicles all corroborating each others statements. Not one or two ambiguous statements open to any kind of interpretation. Every single occupant of both cars are stating, basically, the same thing - at the time of the first shot these cars had turned off Houston Street and were travelling down Elm.
I now turn to the work of Mark Tyler to compare how these statements support or refute the various theories put forward.

Z133



In the image above the Vice-Presidential car is marked 7 and the follow-up car 8. It is obvious from this image that both vehicles are still on Houston at the time of this proposed first shot and, as such, a shot around z133 (or before) is absolutely refuted by the 10 witness statements.

Z160



Again, we can clearly see that, although car 7 is well into it's turn, car 8 is still on Houston. The theory of a first shot around z160 is refuted.

Z190



It can be said that car 7 is now travelling down Elm but car 8 is still to complete the turn as specified by the occupants of this car and, as such, a shot around z190 is refuted by the witness statements.

Z223



My own proposal.
It can be seen from the above image that both cars are now travelling on Elm after having completed the turn off Houston. There can be no doubt that this is the only theory that comes anywhere close to fitting the witness statements of the 10 occupants of these vehicles.
Yet further corroboration, if any were needed, that the first shot was the one that struck JFK in the throat around z223.
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