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61
JFK Assassination Plus General Discussion And Debate / Re: This at least gives me pause about the LN narrative
« Last post by Lance Payette on Yesterday at 02:39:12 PM »
Quote from: John Corbett on Yesterday at 01:39:16 PM
Oswald wasn't seen with a Coke until after the Baker encounter. Baker said he did not have a Coke when he confronted Oswald. Baker did not write his official statement. It was written up for him and he was asked to sign it. He read the prepared statement and refused to sign it because it said Oswald had a Coke in his hand and he knew that he hadn't said that. They asked him to cross out the reference to the Coke and initial his correction, which he did and then signed the statement

My guess is the person who prepared the statement for Baker did so from notes taken when he was interviewed. It's possible that same person had also prepared Reid's statement and conflated what Reid said with what Baker said. Whatever the reason for the mistake was, Baker made a point to say he did not see Oswald with a Coke in his hand.

Oswald would not have had time to buy a Coke because he had just entered the lunchroom seconds before Baker reached the landing. Baker spotted him through the window of the outer door. There was an inner door which didn't have a glass window and that door had an automatic closer. The only reason Baker was able to see Oswald was because Oswald had just gone through that inner door and it had not closed behind him. Had Oswald ben in the lunchroom for more than a few seconds, that inner door would have been closed and Baker wouldn't have even known he was there.

Yes, I know all that. I have no convincing explanation for why the person who prepared Baker's original affidavit would have gratuitously inserted "holding a Coke" - yet another quirk of the wildly quirky JFKA that only adds to the mystery. With one's CT beanie on, one can see how eliminating the Coke from Baker's story is critical, because if Oswald had a Coke at the time then he had been there longer than a few seconds and buying a Coke before the Baker encounter would be exceedingly odd behavior for an escaping Presidential assassin. On the other hand, even buying a Coke after the assassination would be somewhat odd. Would he really have the presence of mind at that point to think "It will look better if I walk out of here with a Coke in my hand?" The zombie-like encounter with Mrs. Reid, assuming it occurred as she described, is likewise odd. The escaping assassin who had the presence of mind to buy a Coke didn't have the presence of mind to say, "No, really? I'm going to go out and see what I can find out."

It seems that staunch defenders of the LN narrative want to go to immediately to "He had a motive!" and "Here are all the reasons he's guilty!" For purposes of this discussion, I accept all that. I simply ask how we account for behavior that seems (to me, anyway) seriously inconsistent with that?

Things like his behavior in Irving and the Baker encounter have always stuck in my craw. I have explained his post-assassination lack of cooperation and lies on the basis that he was saving everything for a long, theater-like trial in which Abt would guide him through an exploration of his political philosophy and he would at least go down in history as a deep-thinking, ideologically motivated assassin - but even this is pretty iffy. But the more I think about it, his behavior with Marina and his beloved children in Irving, and his lack of any Oswald-like manifesto prepared at Beckley the night before, are really puzzling. To say he had a motive and there is lots of evidence of his guilt avoids these puzzles but doesn't solve them.

My LN-oriented explanation has been that he wasn't fully committed to the JFKA until the very, very last minute, after Marina had rebuffed his attempts at reconciliation. But even this is kind of bizarre: "Maybe I'll buy Marina a washing machine and set up her and the kids in an apartment in Dallas or maybe I'll assassinate the President. Well, that it didn't go so well in Irving - I guess I'll go ahead and assassinate the President and leave Marina and the kids to deal with the aftermath and fend for themselves." What?
62
JFK Assassination Plus General Discussion And Debate / Re: This at least gives me pause about the LN narrative
« Last post by Michael Capasse on Yesterday at 02:22:48 PM »
Quote from: John Mytton on Yesterday at 02:11:21 PM
Not this crapasse again.
 • From the stairs you have a clear view of the Vestibule window, you know a clear glass window which is designed to be seen through.
 • Baker as he raced up the stairs wasn't making a search of the entire building, he noticed something out of the ordinary and investigated. Baker's priority was to reach the top of the building and the only reason he happened to see Oswald was because the elevator was stuck on an upper floor.
 • Truly who came in behind Baker said Oswald was standing just beyond the entrance of the lunchroom.

Mr. BELIN - What did you see that caused you to turn away from going up to the third floor?
Mr. BAKER - As I came out of that stairway running, Mr. Truly had already gone on around, see, and I don't know, as I come around----
Mr. DULLES - Gone on around and up?
Mr. BAKER - He had already started around the bend to come to the next elevation going up, I was coming out this one on the second floor, and I don't know, I was kind of sweeping this area as I come up, I was looking from right to left and as I got to this door here I caught a glimpse of this man, just, you know, a sudden glimpse, that is all it was now, and it looked to me like he was going away from me.
Mr. BELIN - All right. Then what did you do?
Mr. BAKER - I ran on up here and opened this door and when I got this door opened I could see him walking on down.
Mr. DULLES - Had he meanwhile gone on through the door ahead of you?
Mr. BAKER - I can't say whether he had gone on through that door or not. All I did was catch a glance at him, and evidently he was--this door might have been, you know, closing and almost shut at that time.

The view from the stairs, looking right through the vestibule door window into the hallway and the entrance to the lunchroom, which cannot be seen, is to the left

 • Baker saw enough of Oswald to calculate that Oswald was hurriedly moving away from Law Enforcement because Oswald moved quite far in the same time that Baker ran from the top of the stairs to the door. By the time Officer Baker reaches the vestibule door, Oswald has now decided to not "hang around" but Oswald is suspiciously hurrying out of the corridor and is now about 20 feet away from Officer Baker?

Mr. BAKER - Evidently he was hurrying because at this point here, I was running, and I ran on over here to this door.

Mr. BELIN - All right. I see a coke machine off on the left. When you saw Oswald after you got to this doorway inside the lunchroom, had he gone as far as the coke machine?
Mr. BAKER - I didn't notice the coke machine or any item in the room there All I was looking at was the man, and he seemed to be approximately 20 feet down there from me.

A plan of the 2nd floor with Baker's initial position when he saw Oswald, indicated by the "B" enclosed with the red box.

Mr. BAKER - At the upper portion of this stairway leading to the second floor, I was just stepping out on to the second floor when I caught this glimpse of this man through this doorway.
Mr. BELIN - Do you want to put a spot there, with the letter "B" at the point you believe you were when you were looking through that door? You put the letter "B" on Exhibit 497 when you first saw the movement.
Mr. BAKER - Yes, sir.

Truly saw Oswald standing just inside the lunchroom.

Mr. BELIN. And where was Lee Harvey Oswald at the time you saw him?
Mr. TRULY. He was at the front of the lunchroom, not very far inside he was just inside the lunchroom door.
Mr. BELIN. All right.
Mr. TRULY. 2 or 3 feet, possibly.
Mr. BELIN. Could you put an "O" where you saw Lee Harvey Oswald?
All right. You have put an "O" on Exhibit 497.

Howlett showing the vestibule door closing(viewed from a different angled) which may have alerted Baker.

And as for the coke comment, it was crossed out and initialled by Baker.

For reference, here's Roy Truly's report.

Whoever wrote Baker's above report also wrote Truly's.
Not only are the way the letters written identical, the spacing between words and numbers are equally identical.

JohnM

 ::) BLAH BLAH BLAH
Baker stated he saw Oswald drinking a coke. It was written down.

Do you have the statement from Baker that it was a mistake ?
that was not part of the tired garbage you posted.
63
JFK Assassination Plus General Discussion And Debate / Re: This at least gives me pause about the LN narrative
« Last post by John Mytton on Yesterday at 02:11:21 PM »
Not this crapasse again.
 • From the stairs you have a clear view of the Vestibule window, you know a clear glass window which is designed to be seen through.
 • Baker as he raced up the stairs wasn't making a search of the entire building, he noticed something out of the ordinary and investigated. Baker's priority was to reach the top of the building and the only reason he happened to see Oswald was because the elevator was stuck on an upper floor.
 • Truly who came in behind Baker said Oswald was standing just beyond the entrance of the lunchroom.

Mr. BELIN - What did you see that caused you to turn away from going up to the third floor?
Mr. BAKER - As I came out of that stairway running, Mr. Truly had already gone on around, see, and I don't know, as I come around----
Mr. DULLES - Gone on around and up?
Mr. BAKER - He had already started around the bend to come to the next elevation going up, I was coming out this one on the second floor, and I don't know, I was kind of sweeping this area as I come up, I was looking from right to left and as I got to this door here I caught a glimpse of this man, just, you know, a sudden glimpse, that is all it was now, and it looked to me like he was going away from me.
Mr. BELIN - All right. Then what did you do?
Mr. BAKER - I ran on up here and opened this door and when I got this door opened I could see him walking on down.
Mr. DULLES - Had he meanwhile gone on through the door ahead of you?
Mr. BAKER - I can't say whether he had gone on through that door or not. All I did was catch a glance at him, and evidently he was--this door might have been, you know, closing and almost shut at that time.

The view from the stairs, looking right through the vestibule door window into the hallway and the entrance to the lunchroom, which cannot be seen, is to the left



 • Baker saw enough of Oswald to calculate that Oswald was hurriedly moving away from Law Enforcement because Oswald moved quite far in the same time that Baker ran from the top of the stairs to the door. By the time Officer Baker reaches the vestibule door, Oswald has now decided to not "hang around" but Oswald is suspiciously hurrying out of the corridor and is now about 20 feet away from Officer Baker?

Mr. BAKER - Evidently he was hurrying because at this point here, I was running, and I ran on over here to this door.

Mr. BELIN - All right. I see a coke machine off on the left. When you saw Oswald after you got to this doorway inside the lunchroom, had he gone as far as the coke machine?
Mr. BAKER - I didn't notice the coke machine or any item in the room there All I was looking at was the man, and he seemed to be approximately 20 feet down there from me.

A plan of the 2nd floor with Baker's initial position when he saw Oswald, indicated by the "B" enclosed with the red box.

Mr. BAKER - At the upper portion of this stairway leading to the second floor, I was just stepping out on to the second floor when I caught this glimpse of this man through this doorway.
Mr. BELIN - Do you want to put a spot there, with the letter "B" at the point you believe you were when you were looking through that door? You put the letter "B" on Exhibit 497 when you first saw the movement.
Mr. BAKER - Yes, sir.



Truly saw Oswald standing just inside the lunchroom.

Mr. BELIN. And where was Lee Harvey Oswald at the time you saw him?
Mr. TRULY. He was at the front of the lunchroom, not very far inside he was just inside the lunchroom door.
Mr. BELIN. All right.
Mr. TRULY. 2 or 3 feet, possibly.
Mr. BELIN. Could you put an "O" where you saw Lee Harvey Oswald?
All right. You have put an "O" on Exhibit 497.



Howlett showing the vestibule door closing(viewed from a different angled) which may have alerted Baker.



And as for the coke comment, it was crossed out and initialled by Baker.



For reference, here's Roy Truly's report.



Whoever wrote Baker's above report also wrote Truly's.
Not only are the way the letters written identical, the spacing between words and numbers are equally identical.



JohnM
64
JFK Assassination Plus General Discussion And Debate / Re: This is for Nosenko lovers
« Last post by Benjamin Cole on Yesterday at 02:05:29 PM »
AI version: Yes, CIA counterintelligence officer Bruce Solie attempted to convince the Warren Commission of Yuri Nosenko's bona fides.

Key Details of the Interaction:Early Advocacy: In April 1964, Solie—then a key figure in the CIA's Office of Security—reached out to Warren Commission staffer W. David Slawson.

The Goal: Solie tried to persuade Slawson that Nosenko was a genuine defector and urged the Commission to allow Nosenko to testify regarding Lee Harvey Oswald's time in the Soviet Union.

Contested Loyalty: Solie’s push to have Nosenko validated early on was highly controversial within the CIA.

Other factions, led by Counterintelligence Chief James Jesus Angleton and case officer Tennent Bagley, fiercely suspected Nosenko was a KGB plant (some even suspected Solie himself of being a mole for his efforts to clear Nosenko).

Ultimately, due to the fierce internal disputes over his true allegiance, the CIA did not present Nosenko to the Warren Commission, and his putative clearing of Soviet involvement in the assassination was kept largely secret for years.

---30---

You gotta wonder about Bruce Solie. Why was he so concerned that the KGB might be linked to LHO?

The WC was very un-interested in LHO-G2-KGB connections anyway. In fact, the WC was told by LBJ not to find out anything that might trigger a nuke war.

LBJ later said he thought Castro was behind the JFKA.

No one doubts that LBJ was a Washington veteran and a very smart guy.





65
JFK Assassination Plus General Discussion And Debate / Re: This at least gives me pause about the LN narrative
« Last post by Michael Capasse on Yesterday at 01:46:12 PM »
Quote from: John Corbett on Yesterday at 01:39:16 PM
Oswald wasn't seen with a Coke until after the Baker encounter. Baker said he did not have a Coke when he confronted Oswald. Baker did not write his official statement. It was written up for him and he was asked to sign it. He read the prepared statement and refused to sign it because it said Oswald had a Coke in his hand and he knew that he hadn't said that. They asked him to cross out the reference to the Coke and initial his correction, which he did and then signed the statement

My guess is the person who prepared the statement for Baker did so from notes taken when he was interviewed. It's possible that same person had also prepared Reid's statement and conflated what Reid said with what Baker said. Whatever the reason for the mistake was, Baker made a point to say he did not see Oswald with a Coke in his hand.

Oswald would not have had time to buy a Coke because he had just entered the lunchroom seconds before Baker reached the landing. Baker spotted him through the window of the outer door. There was an inner door which didn't have a glass window and that door had an automatic closer. The only reason Baker was able to see Oswald was because Oswald had just gone through that inner door and it had not closed behind him. Had Oswald ben in the lunchroom for more than a few seconds, that inner door would have been closed and Baker wouldn't have even known he was there.


"He read the prepared statement and refused to sign it because it said Oswald had a Coke in his hand and he knew that he hadn't said that."
Cite the documented evidence of this garbage and the other 2/3's about where and when he actually said those things.

Otherwise it is just made up BS:
66
JFK Assassination Plus General Discussion And Debate / Re: This at least gives me pause about the LN narrative
« Last post by John Corbett on Yesterday at 01:42:42 PM »
Quote from: Michael Capasse on Yesterday at 01:31:59 PM
Baker said he saw an open coke. It was written in his statement.
 Thumb1: you have pointed out nothing more than a lame excuse for timing that you just made up.

Baker didn't write the statement. It was prepared for him. Baker read it and refused to sign it because he HAD NOT said Oswald had a Coke. He was asked to cross out the reference to the Coke, initial it, and then sign the statement which he did.

Why do you guys keep clinging to these long-ago debunked myths?
67
JFK Assassination Plus General Discussion And Debate / Re: This at least gives me pause about the LN narrative
« Last post by John Corbett on Yesterday at 01:39:16 PM »
Quote from: Lance Payette on Yesterday at 01:24:02 PM

I see the discussion of the Baker encounter. You have just blown off the head of the President. You rush down the stairs, hoping to escape. You hear Baker and Truly coming up. You duck into the lunchroom, apparently seconds before the encounter. Baker sticks his gun in your stomach and asks Truly if you work there. And you are cool as a cumcumber, like a deer in the headlights, not even breathing hard. If you had 5 minutes to compose yourself, perhaps. Under the circumstances, I find it almost unbelievable. The encounter does not sound like it lasted long enough for Oswald to ask, "What is this all about, gentlemen?" After the encounter, I suppose he would now feel a sense of near-euphoria: "I just survived an encounter with the police! I'm actually going to walk out of this building!" He might have had the presence of mind to think "It will look even better if I'm casually carrying a Coke" - but I'm not convinced he even was carrying a Coke, and this too seems like a very odd detail under the circumstances. All just ... very odd. At least to me.

Oswald wasn't seen with a Coke until after the Baker encounter. Baker said he did not have a Coke when he confronted Oswald. Baker did not write his official statement. It was written up for him and he was asked to sign it. He read the prepared statement and refused to sign it because it said Oswald had a Coke in his hand and he knew that he hadn't said that. They asked him to cross out the reference to the Coke and initial his correction, which he did and then signed the statement

My guess is the person who prepared the statement for Baker did so from notes taken when he was interviewed. It's possible that same person had also prepared Reid's statement and conflated what Reid said with what Baker said. Whatever the reason for the mistake was, Baker made a point to say he did not see Oswald with a Coke in his hand.

Oswald would not have had time to buy a Coke because he had just entered the lunchroom seconds before Baker reached the landing. Baker spotted him through the window of the outer door. There was an inner door which didn't have a glass window and that door had an automatic closer. The only reason Baker was able to see Oswald was because Oswald had just gone through that inner door and it had not closed behind him. Had Oswald ben in the lunchroom for more than a few seconds, that inner door would have been closed and Baker wouldn't have even known he was there.
68
JFK Assassination Plus General Discussion And Debate / Re: This at least gives me pause about the LN narrative
« Last post by Michael Capasse on Yesterday at 01:31:59 PM »
Quote from: John Corbett on Yesterday at 01:26:04 PM
Cherry picking? I simply pointed out that Oswald did not have a Coke in his hands when confronted by Baker. The source of Oswald having a Coke in his hands was Reid, not Baker. It really doesn't matter if Reid saw Oswald with a Coke.

Baker said he saw an open coke. It was written in his statement.
 Thumb1: you have pointed out nothing more than a lame excuse for timing that you just made up.

69
JFK Assassination Plus General Discussion And Debate / Re: This at least gives me pause about the LN narrative
« Last post by John Corbett on Yesterday at 01:26:04 PM »
Quote from: Michael Capasse on Yesterday at 12:46:36 PM
:D Once again, cherry picking  BS:

Cherry picking? I simply pointed out that Oswald did not have a Coke in his hands when confronted by Baker. The source of Oswald having a Coke in his hands was Reid, not Baker. It really doesn't matter if Reid saw Oswald with a Coke.
70
JFK Assassination Plus General Discussion And Debate / Re: This at least gives me pause about the LN narrative
« Last post by Lance Payette on Yesterday at 01:24:02 PM »
Once again, to be clear: Nothing in my posts suggests Oswald was an innocent patsy. My posts are predicated on him doing what the LN scenario says he did. In that context, his behavior seems distinctly odd to me, beginning the day before the assassination. I simply noted that if he were an innocent patsy, his behavior would be (somewhat) more understandable.

Ben just posted a thread where, when things didn't go smoothly in MC, Oswald supposedly "became violent and screamed 'I'm going to kill that damn Kennedy!'' This is not the Oswald of November 21-24. There is an odd disconnect.

I see the discussion of the Baker encounter. You have just blown off the head of the President. You rush down the stairs, hoping to escape. You hear Baker and Truly coming up. You duck into the lunchroom, apparently seconds before the encounter. Baker sticks his gun in your stomach and asks Truly if you work there. And you are cool as a cumcumber, like a deer in the headlights, not even breathing hard. If you had 5 minutes to compose yourself, perhaps. Under the circumstances, I find it almost unbelievable. The encounter does not sound like it lasted long enough for Oswald to ask, "What is this all about, gentlemen?" After the encounter, I suppose he would now feel a sense of near-euphoria: "I just survived an encounter with the police! I'm actually going to walk out of this building!" He might have had the presence of mind to think "It will look even better if I'm casually carrying a Coke" - but I'm not convinced he even was carrying a Coke, and this too seems like a very odd detail under the circumstances. All just ... very odd. At least to me.
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