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61

The question is the same. How about if you are not able to understand it or answer it, maybe just state why you won't. All of this make-believe information and supposed expert opinion from half-baked pseudo experts is pathetic, not impressive. Apparently not one of them could think past his nose and ask themselves the important question about JBC's wounding.

You want someone to ask you a question. How about just repeat to you the question you are dodging and afraid to answer.

Once again, the same old random nonsense and unbelievably loose with the facts. How do you explain Gov Connally's wounds if the bullet does not first pass through JFK?
62
JFK Assassination Discussion & Debate / Re: The First Shot
« Last post by John Corbett on Yesterday at 03:13:22 PM »
And yet:

You choose to ignore 80% of the witnesses who reported a 3 shot pattern ie. those who put the last two closer together. And that 80% is corroborated by 100% of the witnesses who observed JFK’s reaction to the first shot and 100% of the witnesses whose evidence allows us to place the location of JFK at the time of the first shot ie. the time conflicts with an early first shot (before z186).

What is there to corroborate those witnesses? Oh, yeah. Other witnesses.
63

"Yawn" away - I don't care. "Kook" away - I don't care. You're just the JFKA counterpart to a religious fundie who responds to every substantive challenge with "You're going to hell anyway." At least I can understand why a religious fundie's beliefs are so vitally important to him or her. A LN fundie, however? That's a puzzle.

I guess we've seen so many other CTs go down so many other dead-end roads for any of us to get excited about one more. None of these has ever shed light on the question of whether Oswald had any accomplices when he killed JFK.

If any of you ever do actually bag a snipe, let us know.
64
You forgot the last part of your mantra: “unless it agrees with what I think happened, in which case the witness is reliable and accurate”.

There is ample evidence that is far more reliable than divergent eye and earwitness accounts, starting with the best evidence of all, Zapruder's camera. Witness accounts are not without evidentiary value but given their inherent unreliability, they must be weighed against more reliable forms of evidence to determine their value.
65
Oh my goodness. Once again you are decades behind the information curve. How, just how, can you not know that Guinn's 1977 NAA claims were refuted 20 years ago? How did you miss this news?

I guess MTG didn't bother to read my words, "I'll post the article and everyone can decide for themselves.". He automatically assumed I was promoting Dr. Guinn's findings as proof positive and then made his typical knee jerk reaction.
Quote

Guinn's NAA claims were first refuted in 2006 by two scientists, Erik Randich and Patrick Grant, in an article published in the Journal of Forensic Sciences. Several more scientists refuted Guinn's NAA claims the following year in an article published in The Annals of Applied Statistics.

Here are links to their articles:

"Chemical and Forensic Analysis of JFK Assassination Bullet Lots: Is a Second Shooter Possible?" (Spiegelman, Tobin,  James, Sheather, Wexler, and Roundhill) (2007)
https://share.google/dfrci1tNxtQrbGHTz

"Proper Assessment of the JFK Assassination Bullet Lead Evidence from Metallurgical and Statistical Perspectives" (Randich and Grant) (2006)
https://digital.library.unt.edu/ark:/67531/metadc890664/m2/1/high_res_d/900118.pdf

Summary of Randich and Grant's article in the Journal of Forensic Sciences (2006)
https://www.kennedysandking.com/john-f-kennedy-articles/death-of-the-naa-verdict

I quote from the Spiegelman-Tobin-James-Sheather-Wexler-Roundhill article:

Additionally, we show that one of the ten test bullets is considered a match to one or more assassination fragments. This finding means that the bullet fragments from the assassination that match could have come from three or more separate bullets."

In this paper we show that evidence used to rule out a second assassin is fundamentally flawed. This paper discusses new compositional analyses of bullets reportedly to have been derived from the same batch as those used in the assassination. The new analyses show that the bullet fragments involved in the assassination are not nearly as rare as previously reported.

We believe that there is no scientific basis from the fragment matching performed by Dr. Guinn to conclude that only two bullets were the sources of the assassination fragments.


FYI, a little bit about the scientists who debunked Guinn's NAA claims:

-- W. M. Tobin was a principal forensic engineer with Forensic Engineering International.

-- Clifford Spiegelman was a professor of statistics at Texas A&M University and a leader in statistical and environmental forensics.

-- Simon Sheather headed the Department of Statistics at Texas A&M and won the American Statistical Association's Statistics in Chemistry Award, and is now a visiting professor of statistics at the University of Kentucky.

-- William D. James was a professor of chemical analysis at Texas A&M University and published several studies on NAA testing in peer-reviewed scientific journals.

-- D. M. Roundhill was a chemist with Chemical Consulting and published several articles on chemistry in peer-reviewed scientific journals.

-- Erik Randich at the time was a forensics consultant and metallurgist at the Lawrence Livermore National Laboratory.

-- Patrick Grant is an analytical chemist who has been a staff member at the Lawrence Livermore National Laboratory since 1983, has authored or coauthored more than 120 peer-reviewed scientific publications, and has been a fellow of the American Academy of Forensic Sciences since 1999 and a member of the editorial board of the Journal of Forensic Sciences since 2003.

MTG just assumed I wasn't aware of the fact that Guinn's tests weren't proof positive that the fragments came from the recovered bullets. The fact that it was theoretically possible that the fragments could have come from different bullets doesn't change the fact the matching is still probative. It would have been far more significant if the fragments and bullets didn't match. But of course, that isn't the case. It would be a most amazing coincidence if the fragments and bullets had the  same metallurgical content if the bullets didn't come from the bullets they were compared to. CT fanatics never bother to ask themselves what the likelihood that the fragments matched the bullets if the fragments had not come from the recovered bullets but had come from other bullets that somehow disappeared and were never recovered. 99% probability isn't good enough for CT fanatics. If something isn't 100% conclusive, it has no evidentiary value. This is what happens when one refuses to apply common sense to the available evidence.

Yes, it is theoretically possible the fragments, by coincidence, could have matched the bullets even if they didn't come from the recovered bullets which is why I made the statement that people could judge the article for themselves. That would be a truly remarkable coincidence. Given the fact the metallurgical content of the fragments matched that of the recovered bullets and that no other bullets were recovered, a reasonable person would conclude the fragments came from the recovered bullets. Common sense is not a trait necessary to being a JFKA conspiracy fanatic. In fact, common sense is a detriment to their chosen beliefs.
66
"A theory whose 'evidence' consists mostly of eyewitness' and earwitness' statements about something that happened quicky, that was loud, that was startling, that was traumatic, and that happened in an echo chamber like Dealey Plaza ain't worth the paper it's written on." -- Thomas Graves
You forgot the last part of your mantra: “unless it agrees with what I think happened, in which case the witness is reliable and accurate”.
67

   Where EXACTLY is Mary Woodward supposed to have been standing on the (N) side of Elm St?
   She claims to have been, "...there on the grassy slope just East of the Triple Underpass...", and then goes on to add, "About 10 feet from where we were standing, a man and a woman had thrown their small CHILD to the ground and covered HIS body with theirs". I'm guessing this is the Newman Family she is taking about. There were 2 Newman kids, (NOT 1), and to my knowledge there was not 4 WOMEN standing within 10 feet of the Newman Family in ANY direction.
    I have a very large map of Dealey Plaza which details who was standing where on 11/22/63. This map also details the make/model of vehicles parked all the way over to Commerce St. Nowhere on this exceptionally detailed map is there a person standing on the (N) side of Elm St designated as Mary Woodward. She and her 3 female companions were certainly NOT standing within 10 feet of the Newman Family as she claims.
   As I recall, Mary Woodward did a short segment on "The Men Who Killed Kennedy" (1988). Is she, like Gordon Arnold, another person that claims to have been inside Dealey Plaza and witnessed the JFK Assassination, but is Not on any JFK Assassination image evidence? 
68
Time for more follow-up. (Yes, I've seen the recent replies by Corbett and Nessan. I think most people will realize that their replies fail to explain the evidence, actually avoid most of the evidence, and are simply not worth answering. If anyone has any questions about their arguments, please let me know.)

By the time Humes got in front of the Warren Commission (WC), he had honed his cover story. He knew he did not dare admit they had been able to probe the back wound to its end point after they opened the chest and removed the chest organs. He knew he could not admit he knew about the throat wound well before the end of the autopsy (much less before it began).

The cover story was essentially this: They were unable to probe the back wound. When they heard about the stretcher bullet found at Parkland Hospital, they entertained the possibility that the bullet had worked its way out of the back wound, but they never formed a firm conclusion about this. They knew nothing about the throat wound until the following day. Humes explained in his HSCA testimony that they learned about the throat wound by no earlier than noon the next day (more on this later). 

Let's read from Humes's WC testimony:

Commander HUMES. Attempts to probe in the vicinity of this wound were unsuccessful without fear of making a false passage.

Mr. SPECTER. What do you mean by that, Doctor?

Commander HUMES. Well, the defect in the fascia [connective tissue] was quite similar, which is the first firm tissue over the muscle beneath the skin, was quite similar to this. We were unable, however, to take probes and have them satisfactorily fall through any definite path at this point. . . .

Mr. SPECTER. Now, Doctor Humes, at one point in your examination of the President, did you make an effort to probe the point of entry with your finger?

Commander HUMES. Yes, sir; I did.

Mr. SPECTER. And at or about that time when you were trying to ascertain, as you previously testified, whether there was any missile in the body of the President, did someone from the Secret Service call your attention to the fact that a bullet had been found on a stretcher at Parkland Hospital?

Commander HUMES. Yes, sir; they did.

Mr. SPECTER. And in that posture of your examination, having just learned of the presence of a bullet on a stretcher, did that call to your mind any tentative explanatory theory of the point of entry or exit of the bullet which you have described as entering at Point “C” on Exhibit 385?

Commander HUMES. Yes, sir. We were able to ascertain with absolute certainty that the bullet had passed by the apical portion of the right lung producing the injury which we mentioned. (2 H 361, 367)


Let's pause for a second. Humes was blowing smoke here, pretending that this damage suggested a path between the back wound and the throat wound, when in fact this damage was below the throat wound, not above it. The "apical portion of the right lung" is the medical term for the very top part of the right lung. This damage would have been plainly visible once they opened the chest and removed the chest organs, which included the lungs.

Dr. Perry noted damage in this same area in Dallas, without the benefit of having the lungs removed. He detected damage in the "right superior mediastinum," i.e., the very top of the righthand side of the chest compartment, which includes the apical part of the right lung. The apical segment of the right lung is exactly in this area in the chest compartment and is right next to the trachea.

Dr. Perry also saw damage to the right-side strap muscles in the front part of the neck and to the trachea itself, which, along with the hematoma at the top-right part of the chest cavity, logically led him to conclude that the bullet had ranged downward into the chest after entering the throat, since much of the damage was below the throat wound (the rest was parallel to it).

For more information on the damage that Dr. Perry identified on, behind, and under the throat wound, see my article "Research Notes on the Shored-Wound Theory to Explain JFK’s Throat Wound,", which I've linked twice already in this thread.

Let's continue with Humes's cover story to the WC:

I did not at that point have the information from Doctor Perry about the wound in the anterior neck, and while that was a possible explanation for the point of exit, we also had to consider the possibility that the missile in some rather inexplicable fashion had been stopped in its path through the President’s body and, in fact, then had fallen from the body onto the stretcher.

Mr. SPECTER. And what theory did you think possible, at that juncture, to explain the passing of the bullet back out the point of entry; or had you been provided with the fact that external heart massage had been performed on the President?

Commander HUMES. Yes, sir; we had, and we considered the possibility that some of the physical maneuvering performed by the doctors might have in some way caused this event to take place. (2 H 367)


Now, notice Humes said nothing about the removal of the chest organs to facilitate the probing, and nothing about the fact that with the chest organs removed they were able to probe the back wound to its end point and could see that it did not penetrate into the lining of the chest cavity. These were two key facts that Humes and the WC had to conceal at all costs. That's why the Sibert-O'Neill report on the autopsy was suppressed. 

In his HSCA testimony, Humes went into more detail about when he supposedly first learned about the throat wound and about when he wrote the final version of the autopsy report:

Dr. HUMES. Having completed the examination and remaining to assist the morticians in the preparation of the body, we did not leave the autopsy room until 5:30 or 6 in the morning. . . .
 
Dr. BOSWELL. Saturday morning we got together and we called Dallas.

Dr. HUMES. We called Dallas. See we were at a loss because we hadn't appreciated the exit wound in the neck. . . .

Dr. BADEN: Now this was the day after?

Dr. HUMES. The day after, within 6 or 8 hours of having completed the examination assisting Waller's and so forth for the preparation of the President's remains. We got together and discussed our problem. We said we've got to talk to the people in Dallas. . . .

So I called Dr. Perry. Took me a little while to reach him. We had a very nice conversation on the phone in which he described a missile wound what he interpreted as a missile wound in the midline of the neck through which he had created a very quick emergency as you can see from the photographs tracheotomy incision, in effect destroying its value to us and obscuring it very gorgeously for us. Well, of course, the minute he said that to me, lights went on and we said, ah, we have some place for our missile to have gone. (Humes-Boswell Testimony Before HSCA Medical Panel, 9/16/77, pp. 256-257)


Obviously, the last statement refutes any notion that during the autopsy the pathologists saw a path from the back wound to the throat wound. Notice that Humes claimed that as of Saturday morning, they still could not figure out where the back-wound bullet had gone.

Mind you, since Humes said he didn't leave the autopsy room until 5:30 or 6:00 that morning, "6 or 8 hours" after that means he didn't meet with Boswell and Finck and call Perry until noon on Saturday, at the earliest.

Obviously, we're dealing with some fiction here, but it's worth noting the timeline that Humes put forward.

Also, I should note that Humes's conversation with Perry was anything but "very nice." Perry told Nurse Audrey Bell and three journalists that he received several calls from Bethesda during the night, and that they argued with him about the throat wound and tried to persuade him to change his mind about it. Also, thanks to Dr. Ebersole, we know that Humes first spoke with Perry during the autopsy at 10:00 or 10:30, and that that was when he learned about the throat wound.

Keep in mind, too, that Boswell initially told his HSCA interviewer that during the autopsy, the autopsy doctors thought the throat wound was a bullet wound, and that he could see the bottom half of the bullet wound in the throat. The fact that the autopsy doctors knew about the throat wound during the autopsy was confirmed by Dr. Ebersole.

Let's continue: 

And then, of course, I asked him, much to my amazement, had he or any other physician in attendance upon the President examined the back of the patient, his neck or his shoulder? They said no, the patient had never been moved from his back while they were administering to him.

So the confusion that existed from some of his comments and the comments of other standby people in the emergency room in Dallas had
been in the news media and elsewhere. so that added to the confusion.

So following that, and that discussion, and we having a meeting of minds as to generally what was necessary to be accomplished, and being informed by the various people in authority that our gross report should be delivered to the White House physician no later than Sunday evening the next day, 24 hours later or not quite 24 hours later. Not having slept for about 48 hours, I went home and rested from noon until 8 or 10 that evening Saturday evening, and then I sat down in front of other notes on which I had made minor comments, handwritten notes.

I wrote the report which is present here. (Humes-Boswell Testimony Before HSCA Medical Panel, 9/16/77, p. 257)


Humes then addressed the fact that he had destroyed some of his autopsy notes:

Now we also have here -- and since it's in the record I want to comment about it -- some comments that I destroyed some notes related to this by burning in the fireplace of my home and that is true. However, nothing that was destroyed is not present in this write-up. (Humes-Boswell Testimony Before HSCA Medical Panel, 9/16/77, p. 257)

The transcript of the 1/27/64 WC executive session alone proves Humes was lying about this. So does the Sibert-O'Neill report on the autopsy. So do the accounts of Dr. Ebersole, Dr. Karnei, and med-tech Jenkins, and the HSCA and ARRB testimony of FBI agents Sibert and O'Neill.

There is yet another witness who confirmed that the autopsy doctors found that the back wound had no exit point: Richard Lipsey, who attended the autopsy on orders from Major General Philip Wehle, the commanding general of the Washington, D.C., military district. Lipsey also described in great detail the removal of the chest organs, and he, too, said the autopsy doctors knew about the throat wound during the autopsy. Lipsey was interviewed by the HSCA in early 1978. We'll talk about Lipsey's important testimony in a future reply.

MTG would have better luck selling air conditioners to Eskimos than selling this turkey of a theory. According to MTG, once the back wound was probed early on during the autopsy, the probe only passed a few inches into the wound, and somebody uttered the words "no exit", that was the end of the story. Nothing the prosectors learned later on mattered. It didn't matter that once the chest organs were eviscerated, they discovered a trail of tissue damage from the back wound to the tracheostomy incision. It didn't matter that Dr. Perry confirmed to them that he had performed a tracheostomy over the bullet wound in the throat. It didn't matter that it is not remotely possible that a bullet would have only penetrated a few inches into JFK's back. Once somebody uttered the words "no exit", that settled it. That had to be their final answer no matter what else they learned later in the process. The were stuck with that and weren't allowed to change it. The foolishness of that position couldn't be more obvious. Who clings to an early impression once more and better information becomes available? Answer: a JFK conspiracy fanatic. Like MTG. Early on when he read that the words "no exit" were uttered during the probing of the back wound, that became his mantra. He was going to cling to those words no matter what. Since there is no real evidence that somebody other than Oswald took part in the JFKA, he was going to hang on to the magic words "no exit" come hell or high water. There's no reasoning withs somebody that fanatical. It makes me wonder why I even try.
69
(YAWN)
One of your more insightful contributions, actually. Other than the fact that you appear to have no life other than this forum and to be completely obsessed with adding your $0.0000000002 to every post, I would not have expected you to read far enough to (YAWN) to my last post. I and William Bruce Pitzer, RIP, are deeply flattered.

Mastubatory one-liners aren't my thing. I have a hard time understanding why they are anyone's thing, but they clearly are since they are so prevalent on every internet forum of every variety.

If I were satisfied the LN narrative had been established beyond any doubt, I'm not sure why I would be on a JFKA forum at all or feel compelled to dismiss everyone who raises questions with some dogmatic label like "kook." If I were satisfied the LN narrative had been established beyond any doubt, I think I'd move on to other territory - take up golf, learn to knit, visit all the National Parks, whatever. I can only conclude that for you and your ilk, the LN narrative is not "like" a religion - it is a religion. For those who don't share your dogmatism, your non-substantive responses strike most people as a bad case of protesting too much. It's quite weird.

Good old William Bruce Pitzer is a perfect example of how I manage to maintain any interest at all in the JFKA. I reread one of the leading CT tomes just for the hell of it because I saw it mentioned favorably by a CTer I respect. Dennis David, and the high regard in which he was held as a humble, seemingly truthful human being, piqued my interest. I decided to explore, for my own amusement, the Pitzer angle. I got lucky right off the bat: Kent Heiner's free e-book is a paradigmatic example of what research should look like - take one tale, research the hell out of it, let the chips fall where they may, and change your mind if the evidence demands it. With it as a starter, I decided to exercise my brain and legal skills for no more reason than the exercise. Voila, it turned out to be way more interesting than your seemingly endless pissing matches with MTG.

I even hit upon a slightly different wrinkle: WHAT IF the conclusion of suicide were correct, but that isn't the end of the matter? WHAT IF David's claimed encounter in Pitzer's office were more or less true? WHAT IF, as wacky as I believe the Lifton/Horne stuff to be, there actually were shenanigans at the autopsy - not by conspirators in the assassination itself, but by folks with a mandate to pin the assassination on Oswald for what they believed to be patriotic reasons?

Do I insist this scenario is likely? No, I insist it isn't ridiculous. I insist it's far less ridiculous than the Lifton/Horne stuff. I insist it's consistent with my nagging doubts that the orthodox LN narrative isn't the full story and that the many, many, many direct participants in the events surrounding the JFKA who share my nagging doubts aren't all "kooks." Having seen virtually every species of kook exposed in the many areas of weirdness in which I've been involved, I have a difficult time dismissing Dennis David as a kook.

"Yawn" away - I don't care. "Kook" away - I don't care. You're just the JFKA counterpart to a religious fundie who responds to every substantive challenge with "You're going to hell anyway." At least I can understand why a religious fundie's beliefs are so vitally important to him or her. A LN fundie, however? That's a puzzle.
70
Time for more follow-up. (Yes, I've seen the recent replies by Corbett and Nessan. I think most people will realize that their replies fail to explain the evidence, actually avoid most of the evidence, and are simply not worth answering. If anyone has any questions about their arguments, please let me know.)

By the time Humes got in front of the Warren Commission (WC), he had honed his cover story. He knew he did not dare admit they had been able to probe the back wound to its end point after they opened the chest and removed the chest organs. He knew he could not admit he knew about the throat wound well before the end of the autopsy (much less before it began).

The cover story was essentially this: They were unable to probe the back wound. When they heard about the stretcher bullet found at Parkland Hospital, they entertained the possibility that the bullet had worked its way out of the back wound, but they never formed a firm conclusion about this. They knew nothing about the throat wound until the following day. Humes explained in his HSCA testimony that they learned about the throat wound by no earlier than noon the next day (more on this later). 

Let's read from Humes's WC testimony:

Commander HUMES. Attempts to probe in the vicinity of this wound were unsuccessful without fear of making a false passage.

Mr. SPECTER. What do you mean by that, Doctor?

Commander HUMES. Well, the defect in the fascia [connective tissue] was quite similar, which is the first firm tissue over the muscle beneath the skin, was quite similar to this. We were unable, however, to take probes and have them satisfactorily fall through any definite path at this point. . . .

Mr. SPECTER. Now, Doctor Humes, at one point in your examination of the President, did you make an effort to probe the point of entry with your finger?

Commander HUMES. Yes, sir; I did.

Mr. SPECTER. And at or about that time when you were trying to ascertain, as you previously testified, whether there was any missile in the body of the President, did someone from the Secret Service call your attention to the fact that a bullet had been found on a stretcher at Parkland Hospital?

Commander HUMES. Yes, sir; they did.

Mr. SPECTER. And in that posture of your examination, having just learned of the presence of a bullet on a stretcher, did that call to your mind any tentative explanatory theory of the point of entry or exit of the bullet which you have described as entering at Point “C” on Exhibit 385?

Commander HUMES. Yes, sir. We were able to ascertain with absolute certainty that the bullet had passed by the apical portion of the right lung producing the injury which we mentioned. (2 H 361, 367)


Let's pause for a second. Humes was blowing smoke here, pretending that this damage suggested a path between the back wound and the throat wound, when in fact this damage was below the throat wound, not above it. The "apical portion of the right lung" is the medical term for the very top part of the right lung. This damage would have been plainly visible once they opened the chest and removed the chest organs, which included the lungs.

Dr. Perry noted damage in this same area in Dallas, without the benefit of having the lungs removed. He detected damage in the "right superior mediastinum," i.e., the very top of the righthand side of the chest compartment, which includes the apical part of the right lung. The apical segment of the right lung is exactly in this area in the chest compartment and is right next to the trachea.

Dr. Perry also saw damage to the right-side strap muscles in the front part of the neck and to the trachea itself, which, along with the hematoma at the top-right part of the chest cavity, logically led him to conclude that the bullet had ranged downward into the chest after entering the throat, since much of the damage was below the throat wound (the rest was parallel to it).

For more information on the damage that Dr. Perry identified on, behind, and under the throat wound, see my article "Research Notes on the Shored-Wound Theory to Explain JFK’s Throat Wound,", which I've linked twice already in this thread.

Let's continue with Humes's cover story to the WC:

I did not at that point have the information from Doctor Perry about the wound in the anterior neck, and while that was a possible explanation for the point of exit, we also had to consider the possibility that the missile in some rather inexplicable fashion had been stopped in its path through the President’s body and, in fact, then had fallen from the body onto the stretcher.

Mr. SPECTER. And what theory did you think possible, at that juncture, to explain the passing of the bullet back out the point of entry; or had you been provided with the fact that external heart massage had been performed on the President?

Commander HUMES. Yes, sir; we had, and we considered the possibility that some of the physical maneuvering performed by the doctors might have in some way caused this event to take place. (2 H 367)


Now, notice Humes said nothing about the removal of the chest organs to facilitate the probing, and nothing about the fact that with the chest organs removed they were able to probe the back wound to its end point and could see that it did not penetrate into the lining of the chest cavity. These were two key facts that Humes and the WC had to conceal at all costs. That's why the Sibert-O'Neill report on the autopsy was suppressed. 

In his HSCA testimony, Humes went into more detail about when he supposedly first learned about the throat wound and about when he wrote the final version of the autopsy report:

Dr. HUMES. Having completed the examination and remaining to assist the morticians in the preparation of the body, we did not leave the autopsy room until 5:30 or 6 in the morning. . . .
 
Dr. BOSWELL. Saturday morning we got together and we called Dallas.

Dr. HUMES. We called Dallas. See we were at a loss because we hadn't appreciated the exit wound in the neck. . . .

Dr. BADEN: Now this was the day after?

Dr. HUMES. The day after, within 6 or 8 hours of having completed the examination assisting Waller's and so forth for the preparation of the President's remains. We got together and discussed our problem. We said we've got to talk to the people in Dallas. . . .

So I called Dr. Perry. Took me a little while to reach him. We had a very nice conversation on the phone in which he described a missile wound what he interpreted as a missile wound in the midline of the neck through which he had created a very quick emergency as you can see from the photographs tracheotomy incision, in effect destroying its value to us and obscuring it very gorgeously for us. Well, of course, the minute he said that to me, lights went on and we said, ah, we have some place for our missile to have gone. (Humes-Boswell Testimony Before HSCA Medical Panel, 9/16/77, pp. 256-257)


Obviously, the last statement refutes any notion that during the autopsy the pathologists saw a path from the back wound to the throat wound. Notice that Humes claimed that as of Saturday morning, they still could not figure out where the back-wound bullet had gone.

Mind you, since Humes said he didn't leave the autopsy room until 5:30 or 6:00 that morning, "6 or 8 hours" after that means he didn't meet with Boswell and Finck and call Perry until noon on Saturday, at the earliest.

Obviously, we're dealing with some fiction here, but it's worth noting the timeline that Humes put forward.

Also, I should note that Humes's conversation with Perry was anything but "very nice." Perry told Nurse Audrey Bell and three journalists that he received several calls from Bethesda during the night, and that they argued with him about the throat wound and tried to persuade him to change his mind about it. Also, thanks to Dr. Ebersole, we know that Humes first spoke with Perry during the autopsy at 10:00 or 10:30, and that that was when he learned about the throat wound.

Keep in mind, too, that Boswell initially told his HSCA interviewer that during the autopsy, the autopsy doctors thought the throat wound was a bullet wound, and that he could see the bottom half of the bullet wound in the throat. The fact that the autopsy doctors knew about the throat wound during the autopsy was confirmed by Dr. Ebersole.

Let's continue: 

And then, of course, I asked him, much to my amazement, had he or any other physician in attendance upon the President examined the back of the patient, his neck or his shoulder? They said no, the patient had never been moved from his back while they were administering to him.

So the confusion that existed from some of his comments and the comments of other standby people in the emergency room in Dallas had
been in the news media and elsewhere. so that added to the confusion.

So following that, and that discussion, and we having a meeting of minds as to generally what was necessary to be accomplished, and being informed by the various people in authority that our gross report should be delivered to the White House physician no later than Sunday evening the next day, 24 hours later or not quite 24 hours later. Not having slept for about 48 hours, I went home and rested from noon until 8 or 10 that evening Saturday evening, and then I sat down in front of other notes on which I had made minor comments, handwritten notes.

I wrote the report which is present here. (Humes-Boswell Testimony Before HSCA Medical Panel, 9/16/77, p. 257)


Humes then addressed the fact that he had destroyed some of his autopsy notes:

Now we also have here -- and since it's in the record I want to comment about it -- some comments that I destroyed some notes related to this by burning in the fireplace of my home and that is true. However, nothing that was destroyed is not present in this write-up. (Humes-Boswell Testimony Before HSCA Medical Panel, 9/16/77, p. 257)

The transcript of the 1/27/64 WC executive session alone proves Humes was lying about this. So does the Sibert-O'Neill report on the autopsy. So do the accounts of Dr. Ebersole, Dr. Karnei, and med-tech Jenkins, and the HSCA and ARRB testimony of FBI agents Sibert and O'Neill.

There is yet another witness who confirmed that the autopsy doctors found that the back wound had no exit point: Richard Lipsey, who attended the autopsy on orders from Major General Philip Wehle, the commanding general of the Washington, D.C., military district. Lipsey also described in great detail the removal of the chest organs, and he, too, said the autopsy doctors knew about the throat wound during the autopsy. Lipsey was interviewed by the HSCA in early 1978. We'll talk about Lipsey's important testimony in a future reply.

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