JFK Assassination Forum

Although I can see that JFK and Jackie and SS agent Hickey are reacting in sync beginning at Z140, I’m totally unconvinced that it was due to a loud shot from the TSBD at Z124.

Otherwise, then surely Rosemary Willis would be slowing down beginning at Z124  instead of at z190.

And surely at Z140 , JC would have turned his head left also in sync with JFK Jackie , since he said he heard the 1st shot.

So the Z124 1st shot idea is totally implausible and is also not supported by vast majority of ear witnesses that heard 3 shots in about 6 seconds ( 4 secs in the case of Harold Norman) and that the last 2 shots were back to back. That cannot be the case if the 2nd shot is Z223 and the 3rd shot is Z313 because that is  a 4.8 sec span of time which no normal person would have perceived as “back to back” or 0.5 sec apart as Lee Bowers demonstrated to Mark Lane.

Andrew Masons proposed Z190 1st shot from TSBD does not work either if JC was hit by a bullet .at Z223 -z225. This appears to be the case as at Z223-Z227 JFK and JC are moving in sync and the very abrupt forward movement  of JC’s upper torso and his right shoulder rotating is indicative that he had been hit by a bullet. 

Andrew proposes that the JC reaction at Z225 is only  due  to hearing a shot 2 secs back at Z190. The abrupt movement of JC is supposedly just him attempting to turn his torso around leftwards to look back at JFK after earlier having failed to see JFK when he turned his head right.

The Z190 shot is tricky proposition to  understand so I’m not entirely ruling it out because it has never really been determined as a fact , which way JC had his legs positioned at Z223.

My opinion about the position of JCs legs is that both left and right legs were together and turned about 45 degrees towards the right door.  I base this opinion on 3 reasons:

1. When JC is seen again at Z223 , his upper shoulders and upper torso and head appear to be turned towards his right at about 45 degrees.

2. The jump seat that JC is sitting on is very close to the front seat that SS agent Kellerman is seated on. So JC probably had to sit in the seat at an angle so that his legs would not be pushing onto the back of SS agent Kellermans front seat. Since JC was going to be facing the Dealey plaza crowd located on the right  side of the JFK limo, then JC most likely had his body and both his legs turned towards the right door of the JFK limo. This would be a much more comfortable position.

3. Based on the trajectory of the SBT , and that JC was gripping  his hat upside down in his right hand when his hand moves abruptly upward in   Z223-Z230 range , the well of that upside down hat would have had to be on the outside of his left leg if both his legs were turned about 35-45 degrees right towards the door.

Now I know Andrew has a diagram/ drawing which positions JCs legs spread apart and with JC holding his hat  upside down between his legs. This position would not work with the SBT trajectory line as the bullet would have had to go thru JCs hat before it impacted his inner left thigh.

It’s easy just to avoid these problems by claiming that the SBT is false and devising a different sequence of shots as Andrew does by proposing the 2nd shot was at  Z275-280 ish. That however , is  also improbable due to the Altgens 6 photo at Z255 which establishes the SS agents have reacted to a shot from behind the JFK limo well before Z275-80. It is unlikely the SS agents at Z255 were reacting to a Z190 shot because their heads would have been turned by Z207 responding as Rosemary Willis has at Z200.

Based on these problems  and mainly with the lack of reactions by SS agents from Z135-Z207 to look back at TSBD( Hickey although leaning does NOT look back) a 1st shot from TSBD at Z223 seems to me more probable than any 1st shot prior to Z223, except for the possibility of some suppressed shot by a 2nd shooter.

I was talking about both and got confused between this and the First Shot thread.  But the point is the same.  The idea that anyone would have forgotten about the first shot is absurd.  They may not have counted all the shots but the idea that they did not notice the shots is something that you are just speculating about to explain why not a single witness put the first shot anywhere near where you put it (half a second before Zapruder started filming).

Tina Towner put it later (4-6 seconds after she stopped filming according to her 1996 oral history at Sixth Floor Museum). Hugh Betzner put it later (after z186). Robert Croft put it later (after z161). Occupants of the VP car put it later (just completed the turn). Connally put it later (150-200 feet after the corner).  Mary Woodward put it later (after JFK's last right turn, wave after he passed by where she stood). Occupants of the VP Security car put it later (almost completed the turn). Greer put it later (when they were passing the west edge of the TSBD). Billy Clay, Jean Newman, Georgia Hendrix, Sue Dickerson, Peggy Hawkins, said the President had just passed them when the first shot occurred.  Karan Hicks said :The car he was in was almost directly in front of where I was standing when I heard the first explosion."   

How could all these witnesses independently recall a first shot 4-5 seconds later than you suggest and all be so wrong and yet not a single witness put it anywhere near where you suggest?

Per Tina Towner in her book:

I believe Daddy was about to head down the hill to get another photo, but there was not enough time before the first gunshot sounded—only a second or two, if that, after I stopped filming.

If I remember correctly, her film stops about one second before Z133.

She?

I thought we were talking about Betzner.

My bad.

I was talking about both and got confused between this and the First Shot thread.  But the point is the same.  The idea that anyone would have forgotten about the first shot is absurd.  They may not have counted all the shots but the idea that they did not notice the shots is something that you are just speculating about to explain why not a single witness put the first shot anywhere near where you put it (half a second before Zapruder started filming).

Tina Towner put it later (4-6 seconds after she stopped filming according to her 1996 oral history at Sixth Floor Museum). Hugh Betzner put it later (after z186). Robert Croft put it later (after z161). Occupants of the VP car put it later (just completed the turn). Connally put it later (150-200 feet after the corner).  Mary Woodward put it later (after JFK's last right turn, wave after he passed by where she stood). Occupants of the VP Security car put it later (almost completed the turn). Greer put it later (when they were passing the west edge of the TSBD). Billy Clay, Jean Newman, Georgia Hendrix, Sue Dickerson, Peggy Hawkins, said the President had just passed them when the first shot occurred.  Karan Hicks said :The car he was in was almost directly in front of where I was standing when I heard the first explosion."   

How could all these witnesses independently recall a first shot 4-5 seconds later than you suggest and all be so wrong and yet not a single witness put it anywhere near where you suggest?

CT'ers, past-day and present, need to be upfront and acknowledge that there has long been Tehran and Moscow influencers playing in JFKA-land. It may be worse today than ever, due to the internet and social media.

To be sure, official Washington promoted the LN view.

People should keep in mind that the WC committed to the LN view, not only excluding domestic influence on LHO, but foreign.

No one wanted to know if LHO answered to the KGB or G2, and worse, possibly through KGB asset Bruce Solie. Or G2 assets embedded in the Cuban exile community.

The CT community has spent decades examining the CIA, and not really coming up with much. Some plausible deductions, but really still bordering on speculation.

Yes, Bill Harvey ran assassination programs, hated JFK and was an alcoholic. He may have been on a commercial flight to Texas in late 1963. And?

You keep claiming that the WC quashed investigations into Oswald's foreign connections. Who did this and what is your evidence for it? Who told the FBI and CIA to stop investigating these questions? You think Angleton and the CIA stopped looking into Oswald and any foreign connection to the assassination because someone in the WC ordered them to? Warren? Rankin? Who exactly? In any case, he didn't stop.

From what I've read the WC staff heavily relied on the FBI and CIA and others to conduct most of the investigation. The staff wasn't able to investigate so many different areas, conduct the literally thousands of interviews that were done. Run the tests, examine the film, et cetera. The WC sent, if I have it right, two staffers to Mexico City to investigate what happened there: David Slawson (still alive) and Bill Coleman. Both had to rely on reports from the CIA and FBI of course.

In any case, who in the WC ordered the FBI and CIA to not investigate any foreign connections? And who ordered the HSCA and Church Committee and media not to investigate these matters? You do know we've had more investigations beside the WC?

As to Russo: He says that he believes Oswald alone killed JFK but that Oswald *may* have been influenced by pro-Castro people, people he met in Mexico City and perhaps elsewhere. But that's it. There are all kinds of allegations about Oswald meeting "X" or "Y", as Russo discusses in his books, but people make all sorts of claims about Oswald. Russo's complaint is that the CIA didn't follow up on some allegations. But that wasn't done - or not done - on orders from the WC.

Oliver Stone's Ruth Paine

Stone told actor Gail Cronauer, who played Janet Williams, aka Ruth Paine, in a conspiratorial manner.

https://www.onthetrailofdelusion.com/post/oliver-stone-s-ruth-paine