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61
TG--

If what you and John Newman suspect is true about Solie, then Solie is the perfect candidate to leak info to Garrison...that Garrison would naturally believe, given the source.

Somebody inside the CIA leaked to Garrison that Shaw had a history with the CIA.

The KGB "CIA perped the JFKA" narrative in full flower.

In fact, Shaw was possibly monitoring LHO in New Orleans, just as de Mohrenschildt had in Dallas (although De M. may have been a double agent).



62
JFK Assassination Discussion & Debate / Re: The First Shot
« Last post by John Corbett on Yesterday at 12:34:29 PM »
It would have exited over the top of the windshield and gone on to hit the curb. The two large fragments found in the limo had gone upward upon exiting Kennedy's head. And they went there separate ways laterally. The one that hit the chrome piece was not far off from exiting. If it was a fragment that struck Tague , it would have had to go between 5 and 10 degrees to the left in order to hit Tague. I can't remember the figure and I can't check it out now because I've just been updated to the most recent version of GIMP and I have don't feel like trying to figure out how to use the measuring tool tonight. I'll delete this version tomorrow and download a much older one.

On edit: I just used the measuring tool in the latest version of GIMP. The fragment would have had to "deflect" 6 degrees to the left in order to hit the curb near where Tague was standing

While that is a possibility, it requires that a fragment exited JFK's head with a low enough velocity to pass over the windshield and arc back down to where it struck the curb in front of Tague but still have enough velocity to cause the debris to injure Tague. I don't know if there is a velocity that would satisfy both those requirements. I tend to lean towards the theory that the first missed shot fragmented and one of the fragments ricocheted down range to strike the curb. Using Google Earth, a line drawn from the sniper's nest to Tague's location would passes just to the right of where the limo was on Elm St. I believe that the first shot struck the pavement to the right of the limo. Posner hypothesized the bullet hit a tree branch and others believe it hit the traffic arm that the limo passed under. We will never know for sure what the cause of Tague's injury was, only that it was likely a lead fragment from one of Oswald's shots.
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My experience is AI can be a useful tool for finding facts although even those should be verified. I don't trust it to analyze factual information. That requires real intelligence, not artificial. AI only know what it has been told and it gets told a lot of  BS:
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JFK Assassination Discussion & Debate / Re: How Do LNers Deal With Givens?
« Last post by Zeon Mason on Yesterday at 12:19:53 PM »
The Myers  computer graphics model somehow aligns the SBT trajectory. It looks good in that computer simulated reality, however in the real world of physics experiments the trajectory did not work out so well since no experiment so far has been able to replicate the bullet exiting the throat. They got it almost there in the 2003 experiment with the 2 torso models demonstrating the 6.5mm bullet fired from the MC rifle could go thru 2 bodies. However the straight line trajectory is clearly well below the throat wound location.

The experiment left  off the arms and hands and heads and the torsos were fixed and stationary. Thus experiment was doomed from the start to be an inaccurate representation, probably because they did. not wish to address the wrist wound problem and where exactly JCs right hand was positioned at Z224.



65


The only thing worse than witness testimony is 40 year old witness testimony. Griffith goes on endlessly with this type of crap.

Well said.
66
I sliced it the way that I sliced it. Please read it again. Ford did not change the location of the entry wound. He did not move it by as much as a mm in any direction. He recommended a change in the wording of the draft report. He did not unilaterally change that wording. His recommendation was valid. Humes et al said that the wound was in the low neck. I'm not interested in defending Ford. I didn't particularly care for him. My interest is for historical accuracy. Your issue is with Humes et al. You may be right. The bullet may not have entered the back of the neck. I usually argue that it did but I don't need it to have. The bullet traversed downward through Kennedy and exited his throat. It honestly makes no difference to me if it entered at the level of C7 or T1.

The wording is what was FUBAR. The bullet did not hit JFK in the back of the neck. I don't know why he proposed that. Perhaps he misunderstood Humes's testimony.

I agree with 99% of what I have read in the WCR. If I could change one thing in the report, that would be it.

If I could change two things, the second one would be their statement that SBT is not essential to the finding that JFK was killed by a lone gunman. If there was no single bullet, there had to be a second shooter.
67
I sliced it the way that I sliced it. Please read it again. Ford did not change the location of the entry wound. He did not move it by as much as a mm in any direction.

Surely you're joking. "Please read it again"? What don't you understand here? You can read it a thousand times, and it's still going to read that Ford replaced "at a point slightly below the shoulder" with "the back of his neck."

Sheesh, even Google AI says that Ford changed the wound's description so that it would "better align" with the single-bullet theory:

Gerald Ford successfully pushed the Warren Commission to change the written description of President John F. Kennedy's back wound from the upper back to the base of the neck to better align with the single-bullet theory. (Google "gerald ford's alteration of the description of jfk's back wound")

I was surprised by this acknowledgment because Google AI usually gives answers that are pro-WC.

And surely you can't look at the autopsy photo of the back wound and claim with a straight face that it shows the wound in "the back of his neck" where Humes put it in his drawing for the WC, can you? The HSCA FPP concluded the photo puts the wound at T1, which is a good 2 inches lower than where Humes placed it in his WC drawing. Indeed, the FPP said they placed the wound "in the back area" and "a few inches lower" than where Humes put it in his drawing:

The panel also places the entrance perforation on the lower, in the back area, a few inches lower than illustrated in this drawing. (1 HSCA 256)

He recommended a change in the wording of the draft report. He did not unilaterally change that wording. His recommendation was valid. Humes et al said that the wound was in the low neck. I'm not interested in defending Ford. I didn't particularly care for him. My interest is for historical accuracy. Your issue is with Humes et al. You may be right. The bullet may not have entered the back of the neck. I usually argue that it did but I don't need it to have. The bullet traversed downward through Kennedy and exited his throat. It honestly makes no difference to me if it entered at the level of C7 or T1.

But Humes's wound diagram for the WC put the wound at C3 or C4, not C7. He put the wound noticeably above the throat wound, as we see in CE 385. Humes had to put the back wound above the throat because he and the WC claimed the bullet traveled a "downward path" from the back wound to the throat wound, a piece of pure fiction that even the HSCA FPP rejected.

A bullet entering at C7 would have struck barely level with or slightly below the throat wound. A bullet entering at T1 would have struck at least 1/3 of an inch below the throat wound, which is one reason the HSCA FPP said the bullet hit the back at an upward angle and that it tunneled upward, a fact that Dr. Werner Spitz had confirmed for the Rockefeller Commission three years earlier:

There is no doubt that the bullet which struck the President’s back penetrated the skin in a sharply upward direction, as is evident from the width of the abrasion at the lower half of the bullet wound of entrance. The term "sharply upward direction" is used because it is evident from this injury that the missile traveled upwards within the body. (Report of Werner Spitz, 4/24/75, p. 1, Rockefeller Commission papers, see https://websites.umich.edu/~ahaq/correspondence.pdf)

This is why the FPP had to assume that JFK was leaning so far forward as to be nearly doubled over when the bullet struck, as Dr. Baden was nice enough to demonstrate in front of TV cameras.

Also, we know the back wound was actually at T3, as documented in the death certificate (marked "verified") and on the autopsy face sheet (also marked "verified"), and as confirmed by the hard physical evidence of the rear JFK clothing holes.

Sibert and O'Neill insisted the back wound was well below the throat wound and could not have exited the throat.

A careful look at the autopsy photo of the back wound shows the photo is consistent with the T3 location, when you take into account the fact that the head is tilted substantially backward, so much so that two lines of folded skin can be seen on the upper part of the neck just below the hairline. With those two lines of folded skin unfolded, the wound could very well be at T3 or more than halfway between T2 and T3.

"JFK's Clothing Proves the Single-Bullet Theory Is Impossible"

"Where Was President Kennedy's Back Wound?"
68
Whomever  typed up the document using the  word “recoved” and the singular word “missile” to represent multiple fragments made a gross mistake. Seems odd that given the serious unique situation of a President of the USA being ASSASSINATED, that some individual given responsibility to type up reports ACCURATELY would be so careless. This kind of  negligence is pervasive through out the entire process of the Will Fritz team gathering and documenting  evidence and securing the crime scene. It is equally troubling in many FBI documents and snafus such as the failure of communication between Lt. Day and FBI agent Drain.

Given the magnitude of errors in the process which go beyond what the probability is for random errors in other cases, it is not unreasonable that the public might  tend to be suspicious. It’s gets even more difficult to accept these snafus when FBI agents such as Odum and Hosty  deny a report attributed to their name or introduce new notes that they had kept secret.



 
69
JFK Assassination Discussion & Debate / Re: How Do LNers Deal With Givens?
« Last post by Zeon Mason on Yesterday at 11:23:35 AM »
I think maybe it would be more accurate to say the BASE of the neck. It still looks lower than that to me but I’m just a layman :)
70
TG-

I doubt the CIA historian made any error in his definition of Clay Shaw, in preparing a classified report for the CIA director.

The CIA historian may have used non-standard nomenclature in describing Shaw. So what?

The CIA historian may have relied on documents that are not public record, or on off-the-record verbal discussions with CIA officers, in coming to his conclusions about Shaw. The historian may have not been allowed to discuss those OTR discussions, or classified records.

No one at the CIA has ever issued a statement that the CIA historian was in error in his description of Shaw. I find it hard to believe the CIA would never clear up the record, if the historian had bungled the truth.

Rather, I suspect someone at the CIA had Garrison's ear, and that someone wanted to plant the "CIA did it" narrative.

Who might that be?

Well, your buddy, J. Kenneth McDonald, wrote that so-called history in January 1992.

Probable KGB mole Bruce Leonard Solie -- James Angleton's Office of Security-based confidant, mentor, and mole-hunting superior -- had already retired from the Agency in 1979, but he didn't die until 23 December 1992, so who knows?
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