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61
Firstly, this version of Bell is FAR superior to the one I was using and will be far more helpful, so thanks for that.
I'd like to go slowly to piece together my thinking here. The first thing I'd like to clear up is your comment in an earlier post that in the Bell film Weigman can be seen walking towards Zapruder. As far as I can tell this is not correct but I might be misunderstanding something so I'd like to clear it up. It's not a 'gotcha' or anything, just a genuine attempt to work this timeline out.

In the Bell film we see the limo enter the underpass followed by 3 cars. The camera then quickly pans to the right and shows us the GK area, where we see Zapruder and Sitzman making their way from the plinth and, as it pans across, Weigman in a prone position from where he was filming the Hesters:



This is the moment just before there is a cut/jump in the film.
We can see Weigman lying on the steps. He has just finished filming the Hesters (Mr Hester can be just about made out in the shadows of the pergola, Mrs Hester is getting up from her prone position). Weigman turns around and starts to get up. In the bottom left corner we can see Hargis stood by the lamp post.

The film then cuts/jumps to the scene below. There is no way to tell how much time has passed but a few things have changed - Altgens has appeared out of nowhere, Weigman is now filming the Newmans and Hargis is now running across the road:



Do you agree that the Bell film does NOT show Wegman walking towards Zapruder?
Do you agree there is no way to tell, just by watching the Bell film, how much time has passed between these two images because of the cut/jump?
Do you agree that Weigman has moved from his position filming the Hesters to his position filming the Newmans?

Again, no 'gotchas', just honest questions.


                                                                          YOU TUBE

                  "Did The Umbrella Man Signal The Shot That Killed JFK?"    By - WW2 Mememto  (17:19)

            From 10:38 - 11:31  =  a panning sequence showing the Uncropped Bothun Photo. On the (L) it shows Motorcycle Officer Hargis riding away on his motorcycle. On the (R) it shows Motorcycle Officer Haygood just entering the photo. In between these 2 bookends, it shows the Newman family on the ground, Altgens walking DOWN the knoll toward Elm St, Wiegman filming Officer Haygood as he rides down Elm St, The Cuban and Umbrella Man sitting on the retaining wall, the Chism family beginning their sprint across the knoll, etc. This crystal clear image will assist you in your time stamping. Our Forum "photo gallery" also includes this Bothun Photo, but it is nowhere near as clear as this photo is displayed on YOU TUBE. And remember, the earlier a time stamp you apply to the Wiegman footage, the earlier you are also placing this Man walking down the sidewalk that runs from the Shelter to Elm St on the (E) side/TSBD side of the RL Thornton sign.
          The image of Wiegman running toward Zapruder is on the Bell Film BEFORE the still frame you posted.
          For the record, I do not believe that Wiegman was laying on the ground when he filmed the Hester's. Why would he lay down when filming? Do you know of any other time he laid down when filming that day? I also do Not believe that Wiegman ever climbed atop those steps. I believe Wiegman was Standing on the grass just in front of those steps when he filmed the Hester's. After filming the Hester's, Wiegman started moving (W) on the grass in the direction of Zapruder above and in front of him. What we are seeing on the Bell Film is Wiegman is FALLING. The Bell Film shows the Wiegman figure to be in the position of falling toward the ground. Who gets UP from the ground like we see Wiegman on the Bell Film? Nobody does. There are only 2 explanations for Wiegman's body position on the Bell Film still frame you posted. Either Wiegman is: (1) FALLING to the ground, (maybe he tripped?), or, (2) he is willfully DIVING to the ground. Wiegman did say he felt the "compression" of a bullet on his face during his segment on, "Unsolved History JFK, Death in Dealey Plaza" (2003).
          With respect to the Wiegman Film being deemed "filmed continuously" for 30 yrs, we really have no idea what was being viewed on the Wiegman Film during that time period. Dating back, on this Forum, there was a letter posted from Gary Mack directly addressing this "filmed continuously" issue. And remember, NBC has steadfastly REFUSED to release their Original Wiegman Film. Same goes for NBC and their Original Darnell Film.

                                                                      Your Questions

      (1) The Bell Film DOES SHOW Wiegman moving (W) toward Zapruder. Your posted Bell Film still frame is too late to show this.

      (2) As to estimating the time passage between the 2 images due to the "cut/jump", this is why I mentioned Wiegman being in the process of falling to the ground on the Bell Still Frame you posted. How long was Wiegman on the ground, before he got up and then ran down the Knoll to film the Newman Family? This is yet another variable that is Unknown.

     (3) Yes, I agree that Wiegman did move from filming the Hester's to filming the Newman's.

            That Uncropped Bothun Photo shows Officer Hargis riding away as we see Wiegman filming Officer Haygood entering the Bothun photo on the (R). Hargis gave WC Testimony that he left his motorcycle, crossed Elm St, went up to that "little wall", eyeballed the top of the Triple Underpass where he thought a shot came from,  moved to the light pole, eyeballed the TSBD, and then returned to his motorcycle on the other side of Elm St. How long do you believe it took Officer Hargis to do ALL of this? And, I thought we were seeing Officer Hargis still near his motorcycle on the early frames of the Wiegman Film that show the JFK Limo going under the Triple Underpass?

                                                           Thanks again for tackling this timeline issue.
                                 

     
62
There is nothing complicated about the JFK assassination. A lowly paid laborer learned the POTUS was going to ride past his workplace in a slow moving open top car and for reasons known only to him, he smuggled his cheap, war surplus rifle into work, found a secluded spot on the 6th floor and lay in wait. When the POTUS arrived, he waited for the limo to pass the window he was waiting at, then stuck his rifle out the window and fired three shots, striking him with two, and killing him with the third shot to the head. End of story.
63


You never know if the person you're arguing with belongs to a clique that can ignore/deny good evidence and ban you for posting it and follow up with organized defamation...
64
You never know if the person you're arguing with can't even do basic math, let alone analyse a topic as complicated as the JFK assassination.
65
JFK Assassination Discussion & Debate / Education Forum Goes Off the Rails
« Last post by Brian Doyle on Yesterday at 08:30:53 PM »


Schnapf is on The Education Forum saying Garrison deliberately ignored Marcello...

Marcello did not have the power to corrupt all the government agencies that stymied Garrison...

Shaw was more a CIA man than mob man...
66


I recall reading that there was one small fragment in Connally's chest, but I can't remember the source off the top of my head.

Very interesting. I agree that your research raises further doubts about the claim that the alleged bullet of the single-bullet theory (SBT) shattered the wrist bone.

Are you familiar with the 1967 CBS wound-ballistics test that tried to validate the SBT? They fired FMJ bullets through a block of ballistics gelatin to see if they would then shatter cadaver wrists and then penetrate into a simulated thigh. They did not include a rib bone in the test. Yet, not one of the bullets had enough velocity to penetrate the simulated thigh. In fact, some of the bullets even failed to leave the wrist. And this, even though the bullets were not required to smash 4 inches of rib bone before hitting the wrist.

No shooting can be perfectly replicated because each shooting has its own set of variables. Shooting through ballistic gel into a cadaver's wrist does not replicate what CE399 did on 11/22/1963. It's an apples to oranges comparison. [/quote]

I should add that by "very short distance," I mean very short, like 5 meters (15 feet).

In a ballistics test done in 2023 and published in the July 2023 issue of the International Journal of Legal Medicine, three bullets were fired into blocks of 10% ballistics gelatin from a distance of just 5 meters (15 feet). The bullets were fired from a Tikka M65 Sporter rifle, a high-velocity weapon (2700-2900 fps). The bullet were a full metal-jacketed Norma Jaktmatch bullet, a full-copper Norma Ecostrike bullet, and a soft-point Norma Oryx bullet.

The FMJ bullet deposited fragments from its lead core and from its copper jacket. On a side note, the solid copper bullet only left one fragment in the gelatin block.[/quote]

What does that have to do with the JFKA. Shooting replications can only show what might happen. They can't prove what always happen.
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Predictably, the soft-point (i.e., frangible) bullet left behind over three times more fragments than the FMJ bullet did, and the frangible bullet fragments were more than three times smaller than the FMJ bullet fragments.  Also, the frangible bullet's "fragment cloud" was more than two times larger than the FMJ bullet's fragment cloud. In addition, the FMJ bullet did not begin to fragment until it traveled 21.3 cm (8.3 inches) into the gelatin block, whereas the frangible bullet began to fragment virtually upon impact, fragmenting just 0.3 cm (0.1 inch or 1/10th of an inch) after it entered the gelatin block.

Still more apples to oranges comparisons.
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The scientists who conducted the test were surprised that the FMJ bullet fragmented at all because they expected it to remain intact: "This was surprising as the full metal-jacketed bullet was expected to remain intact." The scientists attributed this to the fact that the bullet was fired from such a short distance: "We hypothesized that this was the result of a short shooting distance that did not allow the bullet to stabilize properly."

The distance is irrelevant. What matters is the velocity a bullet strikes the object at. For those interested, I found this article which explains the forces at work but the calculations make my head spin.

https://modern-physics.org/bullet/

I won't even attempt to calculate the velocity Oswald's bullets struck JFK in the back and the head even though the average muzzle velocity (2265 fps) and approximate distances are know. Suffice it to say that the bullet would have slowed from its muzzle velocity when the two shots struck JFK.
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Researchers who are familiar with the behavior of the ammo that hit JFK's head will see a number of important parallels between the JFK head ammo and the high-velocity frangible ammo in the 2023 test.

The only example I know of that tells us how a Carcano bullet would behave is the JFKA. Do you know of any other case studies that show what happens when a 6.5 x 52mm Carcano bullet strikes various parts of a human body or are you just guessing?
67
I don’t believe there were any bullet fragments in the chest, as per Dr Shaw’s WC testimony. But he did have fragments in the wrist and leg.


I recall reading that there was one small fragment in Connally's chest, but I can't remember the source off the top of my head.

The wrist wound is troublesome when you analyze the holes in the suit and shirt sleeves, and the pants.  Using both mannequins and a live stand in, I’ve run string through pre cut holes in a suit and shirt with French cuffs in the exact locations documented in the official record.  For the string to align, the French cuff had to be completely out of the suit sleeve and the forearm pronated (thumb down) to the near extreme end of its range.  Also the exit hole in the French cuff was jagged and highly irregular—almost a zig zag shape.  And yet the entry hole in the pants was round and the flesh wound in the leg described as “punctate” by Dr Shires.  The odds of a completely unstable bullet making the irregular exit hole in the cuff and within a few inches landing presumably base first to make a round hole has to be astronomical.

Very interesting. I agree that your research raises further doubts about the claim that the alleged bullet of the single-bullet theory (SBT) shattered the wrist bone.

Are you familiar with the 1967 CBS wound-ballistics test that tried to validate the SBT? They fired FMJ bullets through a block of ballistics gelatin to see if they would then shatter cadaver wrists and then penetrate into a simulated thigh. They did not include a rib bone in the test. Yet, not one of the bullets had enough velocity to penetrate the simulated thigh. In fact, some of the bullets even failed to leave the wrist. And this, even though the bullets were not required to smash 4 inches of rib bone before hitting the wrist.

Yes, forensic literature indicates that the only time an FMJ bullet may shear off its jacket is if it is fired from a very short distance from a high-velocity rifle and does not have time to stabilize its flight.

I should add that by "very short distance," I mean very short, like 5 meters (15 feet).

In a ballistics test done in 2023 and published in the July 2023 issue of the International Journal of Legal Medicine, three bullets were fired into blocks of 10% ballistics gelatin from a distance of just 5 meters (15 feet). The bullets were fired from a Tikka M65 Sporter rifle, a high-velocity weapon (2700-2900 fps). The bullet were a full metal-jacketed Norma Jaktmatch bullet, a full-copper Norma Ecostrike bullet, and a soft-point Norma Oryx bullet.

The FMJ bullet deposited fragments from its lead core and from its copper jacket. On a side note, the solid copper bullet only left one fragment in the gelatin block.

Predictably, the soft-point (i.e., frangible) bullet left behind over three times more fragments than the FMJ bullet did, and the frangible bullet fragments were more than three times smaller than the FMJ bullet fragments.  Also, the frangible bullet's "fragment cloud" was more than two times larger than the FMJ bullet's fragment cloud. In addition, the FMJ bullet did not begin to fragment until it traveled 21.3 cm (8.3 inches) into the gelatin block, whereas the frangible bullet began to fragment virtually upon impact, fragmenting just 0.3 cm (0.1 inch or 1/10th of an inch) after it entered the gelatin block.

The scientists who conducted the test were surprised that the FMJ bullet fragmented at all because they expected it to remain intact: "This was surprising as the full metal-jacketed bullet was expected to remain intact." The scientists attributed this to the fact that the bullet was fired from such a short distance: "We hypothesized that this was the result of a short shooting distance that did not allow the bullet to stabilize properly."

Researchers who are familiar with the behavior of the ammo that hit JFK's head will see a number of important parallels between the JFK head ammo and the high-velocity frangible ammo in the 2023 test.
68
Why would you expect you reenactment of the shooting to produce exactly the same result as the actual shootiing?

I would never expect a reconstruction to exactly produce the same result as the actual shooting.  I never claimed it did.  But reconstructions/wound ballistics testing are frequently used in court as illustrative or demonstrative of a shooting incident. The goal isn’t to exactly reproduce a shooting incident—that’s an impossible standard—but to test whether the known/claimed forensic elements of the incident can be replicated consistently under similar conditions.  Reconstructions are not meant as the final word either way but as a means of assigning weight to the credibility or believability of an assertion—if the shooting can substantially be replicated, it simply means it’s more likely than not it happened the way the evidence suggests. 

I was a longtime believer in the official conclusion of the assassination. But with forensic training and experience from a 29 year career as an FBI Agent and additional years working murder cases as a private investigator, I thought it would be an interesting project to test the ballistic and forensic elements of the assassination personally.  I had no agenda other than seeing what I came up with.  The work is actually fun to me.  I’ve extensively and redundantly tested the single bullet theory through ballistic tests, trajectory analysis using strings, lasers and rods with both mannequins and stand ins, and other forensic reconstructions.  I’m currently working on the head shot.  Despite rigorous and faithful replication of the official parameters, I cannot replicate numerous elements of the SBT.  Does that mean it didn’t happen?  No but the weight of what I’ve found sufficiently convinced me it’s wrong. 
69
JFK Assassination Discussion & Debate / Re: The smell of gunpowder
« Last post by John Corbett on Yesterday at 04:29:02 PM »
SMG-

OK, I will say the HSCA said that JFK was "probably assassinated as a result of conspiracy." I used the word "likely."

JFK was probably assassinated as a result of the conspiracy, said the HSCA in 1979. The second official investigation into the JFKA.

---30---

This is AI slop below, but OK on facts---

AI Overview        

President Lyndon B. Johnson used the threat of a nuclear war that could "kill 40 million Americans in an hour" to pressure key leaders into joining the Warren Commission.

The Phone Calls and the "40 Million Dead" Threat

The Context: Immediately after the assassination of President John F. Kennedy in November 1963, LBJ feared that unverified public rumors and conspiracy theories blaming Soviet leader Nikita Khrushchev or Cuban leader Fidel Castro could escalate into an international military conflict.

The Argument: To convince reluctant officials—including Senator Richard Russell and Chief Justice Earl Warren—to serve on the investigating panel, Johnson argued that a credible, unified national investigation was vital to prove Lee Harvey Oswald acted alone and to prevent public panic from sparking a catastrophic nuclear war.

Persuading Earl Warren: Chief Justice Earl Warren initially turned down requests to lead the commission, believing that a sitting Supreme Court justice should not take orders or lead an inquiry for the executive branch. According to recorded telephone transcripts and historical accounts, Johnson summoned Warren to the White House, pressed him on the grave national security risks, and reportedly invoked FBI intelligence regarding potential foreign involvement. Warren ultimately broke down in tears and agreed to serve "for the good of America".

--30--

Elsewhere I have posted on State Dept employees in Mexico getting canned for wanting to pursue Havana leads into the JFKA.

Hoover, tight with LBJ, was working the LHO-LNT within 48 hours.

You are correct, the HSCA concluded LHO was the sole gunman who struck the target, even if there was a diversion, or fourth shot at JFK, from GK.

I have reservations about that conclusion. But each to his own.

Do you think AI is a reliable source of information. All AI does is collect all information it can find regarding a particular issue and regurgitates it. Since there is lots of crapola on the internet, it's hardly surprising that AI would repeat it. Garbage in, garbage out.

There is a reason they call it ARTIFICIAL intelligence. There is no actual intelligence. AI has no ability to think critically. It only knows what it has been told and it has been told a lot of  BS:
70
Whaaaat?! LOL! Are you actually illiterate? Where in the world do you get the silly idea that the premise of this thread is that the Secret Service sent a bullet to Bethesda? Where? This is just some nonsense that you've made up, and now you're pretending that I've said this!

I got that from you. The premise of this thread which you spelled out in the OP is that Dr. Young received an envelope containing a bullet that had been found on the floor of the limo. If the Secret Service didn't send it to Bethesda, how did it get there? Did it just miracle its way over there?
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The premise of this thread, which you surely must already know (unless you're illiterate), is that two Navy chiefs, Mills and Martinell, found a deformed bullet and some skull fragments in JFK's limo at the White House garage, that they gave the bullet and skull fragments to Dr. Young in an envelope, that Dr. Young examined the bullet and the skull fragments, and that Dr. Young then handed the envelope to Dr. Humes.

That's even sillier. The Secret Service had possession of the car and they were searching it for evidence. Do you really think they would let two Navy non-coms have access to the car. It seems you have embellished this story quite a bit. Cite your source that says these two NCOs were the ones who searched the limo and found the bullet and bone fragments. I'm betting right now that if you do actually cite a source, what it says is nowhere close to what you have claimed.
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This dubious, comical dodge deserves further comment. You have floated this argument at least twice before, and I refuted it both times.

You haven't refuted jack. You spew  BS: and claim it is a refutation.
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Yet, here you are repeating it again and saying nothing about the contrary facts that I presented to you.

You don't report facts. You present unconfirmed rumors or your FUBAR interpretations of what other people have said. Your postings are a bad joke that don't amount to anything.
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You want readers to believe that it would be understandable if the autopsy doctors egregiously mislocated the entry wound because the skull was so badly damaged and because they peeled back the scalp during the autopsy.

Some points in reply (again):

-- The FPP majority, whom you cite as the final and unquestionable authority only when it suits you, said there was no bone whatsoever missing from the occipital bone. As I've pointed out to you several times in other threads, the FPP's diagrams of the head wound show no skull fragments missing from the occipital bone. Thus, the autopsy doctors would have had no problem whatsoever in seeing, examining, and measuring the entry wound in the occiput.

-- The fact that the autopsy pathologists reflected the scalp ("peeled back the scalp") makes it all the more absurd to claim that they could have confused a wound 1 cm above the EOP in the occipital bone for a wound 4 inches higher above the lambda and the lambdoid suture and to the right of the sagittal suture in the parietal bone. That would be as unbelievable and impossible a mistake as describing a wound in the middle of the wrist as a wound in the middle knuckle.

-- Dr. Finck, the forensic pathologist at the autopsy, explained that he examined both sides of the rear head entry wound after the scalp was reflected, and that he had photos taken of the interior side of the wound. (BTW, why do you suppose those photos never made it into the official set of autopsy photos?)

Here's what Finck said at the 1969 Clay Shaw trial when he was challenged by Assistant DA Al Oser with the Clark Panel's claim that the rear head entry wound was actually 10 cm (100 mm) higher than where the autopsy doctors placed it:

I saw that wound of entry in the back of the head at approximately 1 inch or 25 millimeters to the right and slightly above the external occipital protuberance, and it was definitely not 4 inches or 100 millimeters above it. (Transcript, State of Louisiana vs. Clay Shaw, February 29, 1969, https://www.jfk-assassination.net/russ/testimony/finckshaw.htm)

-- Dr. Boswell, one of the autopsy doctors and the head of the pathology department at Bethesda, explained to the HSCA and the ARRB that part of the rear head entry wound was contained in one of the late-arriving skull fragments. And, Dr. Ebersole, the autopsy radiologist, disclosed to the HSCA that one of those skull fragments was a large fragment of occipital bone.

-- Dr. Humes, the chief autopsy doctor, was the head of anatomic pathology at Bethesda. He, of all people, would not have confused a wound 1 cm above the EOP in the occipital bone for a wound above the lambda and the lambdoid suture and to the right of the sagittal suture in the parietal bone, especially with the scalp reflected. The EOP, the lambdoid suture, and the sagittal suture are impossible to miss on a human skull.

-- Six witnesses who saw JFK's head wounds up close said the rear head entry wound was near the EOP and/or the hairline (the EOP was about 1 inch above JFK's hairline). They were Roy Kellerman (SS agent who viewed the body in the morgue after the autopsy), Francis O'Neill (one of the two FBI agents at the autopsy), John Stringer (chief autopsy photographer), Floyd Riebe (assistant autopsy photographer), Dr. James Young (who witnessed most of the autopsy), and Richard Lipsey (an Army officer ordered to observe the autopsy).

Stringer's placement of the wound is especially important because he was in charge of photographing the wound. In his ARRB testimony, Stringer adamantly rejected the claim that the wound was at the cowlick site. He practically scoffed at the claim. Similarly, Stringer's assistant, Riebe, agreed that the entry wound was in the "right posterior occipital region."

-- There were four obvious reference points on the skull and one on the head that the autopsy doctors had available to help them locate and describe the entry wound: the EOP, the lambda, the lambdoid suture, the sagittal suture on the skull, and the hairline on the head. The lambdoid suture is plainly visible and is a clear boundary on the skull that separates the occipital bone from the parietal bone. The sagittal suture is equally obvious, and it stops at the lambda, i.e., at the top of the occiput.

Given these obvious reference points, it boggles the mind to try to imagine how three pathologists, one of them a forensic pathologist and one of them an anatomic pathologist, could have examined and measured a wound that was supposedly above the lambda, above the lambdoid suture, and to the right of the sagittal suture in the parietal bone and then could have somehow imagined that the wound was actually 4 inches lower, below the lambda, below the lambdoid suture, below the sagittal suture, and just slightly above the EOP in the occipital bone. No way.

-- If you believe the autopsy photos are authentic, then you must believe that there were no skull fragments missing from the occipital bone and no visible damage to the entire area of the back of the head. Thus, the autopsy doctors would have had no trouble whatsoever in detecting and examining the rear head entry wound.

Of course, literally dozens of witnesses said there was an obvious hole in the back of the head that included a sizable part of the right occipital bone and a sizable part of the rear section of the parietal bone. Some of these witnesses were the two Parkland nurses who cleaned the large head wound, packed it with gauze, and wrapped a sheet around it; the Parkland neurosurgeon, Dr. Kemp Clark, who examined the wound; Clint Hill, who observed the wound up close for several minutes on the way to Parkland and then saw the wound again when he came to the morgue for the express purpose of recording JFK's wounds; the two FBI agents at the autopsy; Floyd Riebe, the assistant autopsy photographer; and the three morticians who reassembled JFK's skull after the autopsy.

If the entry wound was slightly above and to the right of the EOP, the autopsy brain photos are undeniably fraudulent. Any bullet entering at the EOP site could not possibly have avoided tearing through the right occipital lobe and at least damaging the cerebellum, as the HSCA FPP correctly and emphatically pointed out. Yet, the brain photos show no damage whatsoever to the right occipital lobe or the cerebellum.

I'm not going to spend another hour doing a point-by-point rebuttal of your  BS: like I did last night. That is at least 55 minutes more than your nonsense deserved. It has been acknowledged that the Bethesda team and the FPP placed the entry wound in the back of the head in different locations. It doesn't matter which of them got it right. What matters is they all agreed the entry wound was in the back of the head and that fits the finding that Oswald fired the shot from the sniper's nest, which is what all the forensic evidence indates.
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