JFK Assassination Forum

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Dear Lance,

I'm afraid you're about seven years behind the curb (sic) on this subject.

Do yourself a favor and look up self-described American Indian, Stella Mae Jacob, and her two TSBD colleagues, strawberry-blond Gloria Jean Holt and light-blue-headscarf-wearing Sharon Simmons, at the so-called Ed Forum.

Hint: Thierry "The Moon Landings Were Faked" Speth, Don Roberdeaux, Todd Vaughan, and our very own Robin Unger misidentified Jacob, Holt and Simmons as "Gloria Calvary" (sic), "Karan Hicks," and "Carol Reed," respectively, about fifteen years ago, probably due to the fact that Jacob, Holt and Simmons misstated to the FBI that they were standing on the south side of Elm Street during the motorcade.

-- Tom

The problem is, they were given only 5.6 seconds to fire all three shots. Oswald, on the other hand, took 10.2 seconds to fire all three shots in the echo chamber known as Dealey Plaza.

I've already answered this argument, yet you repeat and say nothing about the contrary facts and points that I presented to you. You just keep repeating debunked arguments.

You can only expand the firing time to 10.2 seconds with the cockamamie theory that your supposed expert shooter was foolish enough to fire almost straight down and dumb enough to fire when a traffic-signal pole or tree limb was in or near his center of aim. That's ridiculous. An amateur would know better than to make such a stupid mistake.

You're also overlooking the fact that all the riflemen in the WC and CBS rifle tests were allowed to take as much time as they wanted for their first shot. We don't have the target boards for the CBS test, but we do have the ones from the WC test. Look at the first-shot target board. Only one of the shots landed in the head and neck area of the target silhouette, while the rest landed several inches below the neck area of the silhouette.

Look at the second target silhouette: One bullet barely landed in the head and neck area, landing at the very top edge of the head of the silhouette, while the other shots were even farther away from the head and neck area than the other shots on the first-shot target, and three of them missed the silhouette entirely. And these were Master-rated riflemen firing from only 30 feet up.

Moreover, Hendrix took 8 seconds for his first set of shots and 7 seconds for his second set, while Staley took 6.75 seconds for his first set and 6.45 seconds for his second set.

Miller fired more rapidly (5.15 and 4.45 seconds), but his shots were also the most inaccurate.

Even though Hendrix took 8 seconds and then 7 seconds, he failed to duplicate Oswald's alleged feat. Needless to say, Miller and Staley also failed to do so.

I take it no one's going to try to explain how Michael Paine could have told Ruth Paine that he was "sure" Oswald had killed JFK when he called Ruth from work at 1:00 PM on 11/22, when Oswald had not even been arrested yet. How in the world would Michael Paine have even suspected, much less been certain, that Oswald had shot JFK before Oswald was even arrested, especially since both he and Ruth later claimed they were shocked when they learned that Oswald had been charged with JFK's murder?

The FBI's own report on its investigation of the phone call informs us (1) that the records of the Southwestern States Telephone company show only one call between Michael's work and the Paine home between November 22-26, the 11/22 call, and (2) that Ruth herself admitted the call occurred at 1:00 PM, some 50 minutes before Oswald was even arrested.

https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=111186#relPageId=124&search=investigation_regarding alleged telephone call

During this phone call, Michael told Ruth that he was certain Oswald had killed Kennedy but that Oswald was not responsible for the assassination, adding "we both know who is responsible." Again, this was some 50 minutes before Oswald was even arrested.

Everywhere you look in the life of the Paines, you find intelligence connections.

Take, for example, Naushon Island, a hangout of Allen Dulles's mistress and spy Mary Bancroft. Ruth visited the island and then stopped to see her CIA-connected sister in Virginia shortly before driving back cross-country to pick up Marina in New Orleans. Wow, what a coincidence.

Ruth claimed that she found the Kostin letter when she was moving her desk. However, Chris Newton has proved with photographic evidence that the Ruth's couch and desk were in the same position on 11/9 and 11/10 as they were on 11/23. Ruth lied in order to establish a pretext for picking up the letter.

Michael Paine told Dan Rather in 1993 that he saw one of the infamous backyard rifle photos in April 1963! He claimed that Oswald proudly showed him one of the photos when he picked him up for dinner. Humm, why didn't he say anything about this to the FBI or the WC?

Long after the assassination, in the 1980s, Ruth showed up at Sue Wheaton’s council meetings of the anti-Contra group in Nicaragua, of which Ruth's group Pro-Nica was not a member. Wheaton noticed that Ruth was taking down information about individuals and groups in attendance. Ruth “studied the bulletin board there, copying everything on it. . . . Also she made reference to people she knew in the U. S. Embassy.” Wheaton added that Ruth would show up with two men who would make tape recordings and take pictures. Ruth claimed they were authorized by the Nicaragua Network to take photos, but when this was checked, the claim turned out to be false. IOW, Ruth was still doing surveillance work for the CIA in the 1980s.

1) Didn't Adams deny having said that?

2) In which of his official statements, affidavits and testimonies did Officer Baker say he saw two white men in that area?

    The fallout from this wild Calvery telling Officer Smith about shots being fired from the bushes is seriously damaging your own Calvery Claim. It's now snowballing into inaccurate quotes/reports regarding Adams and Baker. And this stuff about Lovelady and Shelley going into the TSBD via the front door and traveling back to the corner of the 1st floor does your footage claiming to show Lovelady and Shelley moving down the Elm St Ext serious damage. This fallout continues engulfing your Calvery claim. 

Dear Comrade Griffith,

Due in part to the severity of the consequences of being caught, which category of people is harder to "pull the wool" over:

1) People to help you assassinate and/or cover up the assassination of the President of the United States, or

2) People to help you pull off and/or cover up the Iran-Contra thingy?

-- Tom

Is this supposed to be your answer to the fact that the JFK autopsy skull x-rays show at least 2/3 of the right side of the brain to be missing but that the autopsy brain photos show, by Dr. Michael Baden's own admission, only 1-2 ounces of brain tissue missing? That's what you can charitably call a massive contradiction.

Again, how do you square the alleged brain photos with the fact that we know that pieces of JFK's brain were blown onto 16 surfaces?

As reminder: In 1975, Dr. Fred Hodges, then the chief of neuroradiology at the John Hopkins medical school, was asked to examine the JFK autopsy materials for the Rockefeller Commission. Among other things, he noted in his report that a "goodly portion" of the right brain was "missing":

AP and two lateral views show. . . . A goodly portion of the right brain is apparently missing
and the anterior part of the right cranial cavity contains air.
(https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=32027#relPageId=3, p. 2)

Dr. Hodges’ observation that in the skull x-rays “a goodly portion of the right brain is apparently missing” has been confirmed by Dr. Mantik, Dr. Chesser, and Dr. Aguilar. Dr. Mantik confirmed this both with direct analysis and with optical density measurements, determining that at least 2/3 of the right side of the brain is missing in the skull x-rays.

Further confirmation of a large amount of missing brain comes from a surprising source: Dr. James Humes. Humes admitted to JAMA that "two thirds of the right cerebrum had been blown away" (Journal of the American Medical Association, May 27, 1992, p. 2798).

Shall we talk about all the witnesses who saw JFK's brain before the autopsy and who said that 1/4 to 1/2 to 2/3 of it was gone, and about all the surfaces onto which bits of JFK's brain were blown? Let's do:

Francis O'Neill, one of the two FBI agents who attended the autopsy:

Parts of the brain were still within the cavity, but not much. The head wound was massive. It would seem that no one could survive such an injury. . . .
         
Humes pointed out a tracheostomy had been performed. He also pointed out to Sibert and myself the grave wound at the right rear of the President's head and the tremendous damage done to the brain therein.

From O'Neill's ARRB interview:
         
Mr. Gunn: Earlier in the deposition we referred to your observation of the brain being removed during the course of the autopsy. Do you recall that?         
Mr. O'Neill: Yes.         
Mr. O'Neill: [After some discussion about removal procedures] "... Now once again too this is just a portion of it [the brain] because the rest of it was--you know, really gone. And it was a very, very large portion of it. . . .           
Mr. Gunn: "Do you have any sense of what percentage of the brain was missing at the time it was removed from the cranium?         
Mr. O'Neill: . . . It was--Oh well, more than half of the brain was missing.

James Sibert, the other FBI agent who attended the autopsy:
         
A: I think part of the brain was missing, as I recall, or a statement to that effect was made--due to this explosion caused by the gunshot wound in the head.         
Q: Do you recall seeing. . . .?         
A: I certainly don’t recall seeing an intact brain, you know, like you see on a color photograph in med school or something like that.

Dr. Robert McClelland, one of the Parkland doctors, told the WC that at least a third of the brain had been blasted out:

You could actually look down into the skull cavity itself and see that probably a third or so, at least, of the brain tissue, posterior cerebral tissue and some of the cerebellar tissue, had been blasted out. There was a large amount of bleeding, which was occurring mainly from the large venous channel in the skull which had been blasted open.

According to the autopsy records, JFK's post-mortem brain weighed 1500 grams, about 150 grams more than the average male brain weighs. As mentioned, Baden told Bugliosi that JFK's brain was missing no more than 56 grams of tissue ("an ounce or two"). Baden did not explain how this could be when it is a matter of record that brain matter was splattered inside the limousine, on the back of the limousine, on Jackie's dress, on the follow-up car, and on two of the trailing patrolmen.

Below are additional eyewitnesses regarding the large amount of missing brain. Either these people were all amazingly "mistaken" or the autopsy brain photos are fraudulent. Note that their accounts consist of observations made at close range in the back seat of the limo, at Parkland Hospital, at the autopsy, and after the autopsy.

Floyd Riebe, who assisted John Stringer with taking photos at the autopsy, said that less than half the brain was present:

Q: Did you see the brain removed from President Kennedy?    
A: What little bit there was left, yes.            
Q: Were any photographs taken of the brain?            
A: I think I did some when they were putting it in that stainless steel pail.            
Q: When you say that there was not much left, what do you mean by that?            
A: Well, it was less than half of a brain there.

Secret Service agent Clint Hill repeatedly said part of the brain was gone and said there was a large wound in the right-rear part of the head. The following comes from Hill's 11/30/1963 report, in which he described what he saw at very close range for several minutes as he rode on top of the limousine’s back seat on the way to Parkland Hospital:

As I lay over the top of the back seat I noticed a portion of the President's head on the right rear side was missing and he was bleeding profusely. Part of his brain was gone.

From Clint Hill's WC testimony:
         
Mr. SPECTER: What did you observe as to President Kennedy's condition on arrival at the hospital?
         
Mr. HILL: The right rear portion of his head was missing. It was lying in the rear seat of the car. His brain was exposed. There was blood and bits of brain all over the entire rear portion of the car. Mrs. Kennedy was completely covered with blood. There was so much blood you could not tell if there had been any other wound or not except for the one large gaping wound in the right rear portion of the head.

When interviewed by CBS News in 2013, Hill repeated his account of seeing a large amount of missing brain:
         
Scott Pelley: What did you see?
         
Clint Hill: Brain matter, blood, bone fragments all come out of the wound.… Then Mrs. Kennedy came up on the trunk. She was trying to grab some of that material and pull it back with her.… I got a hold of her and I put her in the backseat. … And when I did that, his body fell to its left into her lap. His face--is head was in her lap.

The right side of his face was up. I could see his eyes were fixed. I could see an area through the skull that there was no brain matter in that area at all. So I assumed it was a fatal wound.

Mortician Tom Robinson, who witnessed the autopsy and helped to reassemble JFK's skull after the autopsy, said that the amount of brain missing in the back of the head was about the size of a closed fist. A closed fist would be equal in size to at least one third of an average male brain. (The male brain is typically about 5.5 inches wide, 6.5 inches long, and 3.6 inches high.) From the ARRB meeting report on the interview with Robinson. From ARRB interview summary of Robinson's interview:

Robinson said that he saw the brain removed from President Kennedy's body and that a large percentage of it was gone "in the back," from the "medulla," and that the portion of the brain that was missing was about the size of a closed fist. He described the condition of the brain in this area as the consistency of "soup."

Gloria Knudsen, wife of White House photographer Robert Knudsen, who processed some of the autopsy photos, told the ARRB that her husband told her that JFK's brains were largely missing. From her ARRB interview summary:
         
Mrs. Gloria Knudsen said that her husband Robert had told her that . . . the President's brains were largely missing (blown out).

Now let's talk about all the surfaces that had brain matter splattered on them during the shooting:

Patrolman Bobby Hargis, who was riding closely behind and to the left of JFK’s limousine, said that when the explosive head shot occurred, he was "splattered with blood and brain":

Mr. HARGIS. Yes; when President Kennedy straightened back up in the car, the bullet hit him in the head, the one that killed him, and it seemed like his head exploded, and I was splattered with blood and brain, and kind of a bloody water.

Patrolman B. J. Martin, who was riding beside Hargis, said blood and "other matter" were splattered on his uniform, windshield, and motor:
         
Mr. BALL. What about your uniform?         
Mr. MARTIN. There was blood and matter on my left shoulder of my uniform.   
Mr. BALL. You pointed to a place in front of your shoulder, about the clavicle region?   
Mr. MARTIN. Yes, sir.   
Mr. BALL. Is that about where it was?   
Mr. MARTIN. Yes.   
Mr. BALL. On the front of your uniform and not on the side?   
Mr. MARTIN. No, sir.   
Mr. BALL. That would be left, was it?
Mr. MARTIN. Yes; on the left side.   
Mr. BALL. And just below the level of the shoulder?   
Mr. MARTIN. Yes, sir.   
Mr. BALL. And what spots were there?   
Mr. MARTIN. They were blood spots and other matter.
Mr. BALL. And what did you notice on your windshield?          
Mr. MARTIN. There was blood and other matter on my windshield and also on the motor.

Jack McNairy, who saw the limousine up-close at Parkland Hospital, said in a video-taped interview that there was "gray matter" splattered over a large part of the back seat:
         
As I looked around, I saw that there was gray matter splattered here [pointing to the inside of the rear passenger door to the right of JFK's seat] and along the back of the front seat.

Patrolman H. B. McClain, who helped Jackie get out of the limousine at Parkland Hospital, said in a video-taped interview that there was "matter" splattered all over the inside of the right-hand side of the car:

I could see what looked like a piece of skull, some hair, and matter splattered all over inside the car. It was all on the right-hand side of the car, except the part of the skull--it was laying right in the middle.

Secret Service agent Sam Kinney, who rode in the follow-up car, stated in a recorded interview with Vincent Palamara that brain matter splattered "all over" his windshield and arm:
         
The back of that Lincoln would be directly in front of me. Well, I had brain matter all over my windshield and arm. That's how close we were.

In 2003, Dr. Robert Grossman, one of the Parkland Hospital doctors, wrote that Jackie's dress was splattered with brain tissue and blood:
         
Her face was very white and she appeared to have been crying. She was wearing a light-colored dress. The lap of her dress was covered with blood and brain tissue.

Jackie Kennedy scooped up as much brain tissue as she could gather off the rear hood of the limo, brought it into the Parkland ER, and handed it to one of the medical staff in the room.

Dr. Marion T. Jenkins, one of the doctors who treated Kennedy at Parkland Hospital, reported that there were “fragmented sections of brain on the drapes of the emergency room cart.”

JFK's brain matter was splattered on 16 surfaces:

The back seat of JFK’s limousine.   
The right-rear passenger door of the limo.   
The trunk/rear hood of the limo.   
The front seat of the limo (per Roy Kellerman).   
Roy Kellerman's coat ("it was all over my coat").   
The back of William Greer's coat (per Greer himself, and per Kellerman).   
Governor Connally's clothes.   
Nellie Connally's clothes.   
Officer Martin's clothes.   
Officer Hargis's clothes.   
Officer Martin's motorcycle.   
Officer Hargis's motorcycle.   
Sam Kinney's clothes (riding in the follow-up car).   
The windshield of the follow-up car.   
The drapes of JFK’s emergency room cart.   
Jackie's dress (she said JFK's brains were "all over me").

You guys would have us believe that all this brain matter amounted to no more than 2 ounces, because that's what the autopsy brain photos show. But, clearly, the autopsy brain photos do not show JFK's brain.

Similarly, the claim that JFK's post-assassination brain weighed 1,500 grams is impossible. Even if we assume the brain was weighed after it had been fixed in formalin, the weight of 1,500 grams is still impossible. Fixing a brain in formalin may add about 100 grams of weight, but it may also reduce the weight by that amount. The average male human brain weighs about 1,350 grams. At the very least, giving every benefit of the doubt to the lone-gunman theory, one-fourth of JFK’s brain was blown out of the skull, but even that is far more than the amount of missing brain tissue seen in the alleged autopsy brain photos.