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61
MTG--

The record is fairly damning on JFK and the Diem assassinations.

JFK authorized the coup against the Diems, and the CIA even financed it. (Lucien Conein).

JFK was informed, in recorded conversations, the coup would likely be lethal to the Diems. (Amb. Lodge)

JFK obviously loathed and denigrated the prominent Madame Nhu (Diem's brother's wife). Again this is from recorded conversations.

Yet no one in the entire Kennedy Administration made any effort to extract the Diems, and Conein says his pleas for an aircraft were rebuffed, despite the US operating the huge Danang airbase.

Victor Krulak says he knew of no plans to extract the Diems. There isn't the scintilla of evidence anyone in the Kennedy Administration lifted a finger on behalf of the Diems, and a lot of evidence their assassinations was planned and financed.

At best, JFK was guilty of gross negligence, and to a loyal ally no less.

My layman's assessment is the the US should have worked hard, very hard, to modify Diem's rule, and build as many bridges to the Buddhists as possible. 

Having the Diems assassinated did not stabilize SV.

In a nation suffering a wave after wave of communist terror, a strongman was needed. Tough situation.

Yes, I agree. That is a good, accurate summary of the relevant evidence.

The only thing I would add is that the evidence also shows that JFK did not expect Diem to be killed and that he was very distraught when he learned of Diem's murder. Yes, JFK was warned this would happen, but he clearly did not believe it but expected that Diem would be exiled by the coup leaders -- indeed, many of the coup leaders themselves expected that Diem would be sent into exile in a foreign country, and they were furious when they learned of Diem's death.

But, yes, JFK blundered horribly in authorizing the coup and in not ensuring that Diem would be given safe passage to a foreign country. He should not have simply assumed that the coup leaders themselves would arrange for Diem's exile.
62
JFK Assassination Discussion & Debate / Re: KGB Training Manuals Revealed
« Last post by Tom Graves on Yesterday at 12:34:53 PM »
well…… there’s not much here that I am gravely interested in, but with all this ‘Russia russia Russia’ stuff going on these days, it’s good to know how the enemy thinks, right?

The KGB (today's SVR and FSB) is a world-class humanitarian organization compared to the evil, evil, evil, evil, evil CIA!
63
Some downloads of manuals at link along with other links covering the contents should one really be interested.  Some analysis of these manuals have appeared already in the Daily Beast.

https://www.thedailybeast.com/the-kgb-papers-how-putin-learned-his-spycraft-part-1?ref=scroll

https://www.thedailybeast.com/the-kgb-papers-here-are-the-originals

https://observer.com/2017/03/kremlingate-russia-spy-game-disinformation/

https://www.thedailybeast.com/from-russias-secret-espionage-archives-the-art-of-the-dangle

https://drive.google.com/file/d/16t59k0G381jlasvlZM5i49MZ2wTnwsyA/view   (download, more at link)

And more. A lot of all of this is just a propaganda war that goes back decades.

These manuals go back to the '70s and '80s.

Still, it?s hard to blame the Mexico City resident retrospectively for suspecting what in spook parlance is known as a ?dangle.?

well…… there’s not much here that I am gravely interested in, but with all this ‘Russia russia Russia’ stuff going on these days, it’s good to know how the enemy thinks, right?
64
Iler wrote:


" The JFK Assassination Debate is here for the open and full discussion of the facts surrounding the assassination of President Kennedy. We welcome all sides of the debate so long as arguments are solidly based on evidence, logic, the law, and original work.

An important part of debate is being able to test the strength and veracity of opposing arguments and evidence. "


When the Davidson Enhancement was posted on The Education Forum back in 2016 the 3 members who posted that the evidence showed Oswald was not Prayer Man and questioned those who upheld the theory were permanently banned and not allowed back on the forum...Thomas Graves, Richard Gilbride, and myself found ourselves removed from the forum...Our position was the position that was best "based on evidence, logic, the law, and original work"...The Education Forum and its administrators continue to describe themselves as practicing research methods that the site's record does not bear out...When approached on this the forum continues to respond with silence...

hey didn’t they toss out Jimbo Di & Scully at the same time over the famous arabelli incident? those tossers !! a whole lotta tossin’ goin’ on.
65
Your arguments here range from uninformed to lazy to erroneous to misleading. What are the "plausible explanations" for the Tague curb chip and Tague wounding that preserve the lone-gunman theory? The least ridiculous pro-lone-gunman explanation is the WC's silly theory.

Something cut Tague's cheek during the shooting; the first two police officers who saw the curb scar recognized it as having been caused by a bullet; and Tague saw immediately that the curb scar was deep enough to have sent a chip of concrete that was large enough to cut his face, so it is comical for you to claim that, gee, we really don't know what caused Tague's injury. Yeah, we do.

To all but the brainwashed, it is obvious that a projectile from a bullet or propelled by a bullet caused Tague's injury -- that is the only rational, scientifically credible explanation, but you can't admit it because your theory has no bullet that could have done this.

You don't even have a halfway credible explanation for the curb scar and Tague's wounding.

The closest projectile you have would have come from a bullet that was over 200 feet away and that had just finished plowing through a human skull, and this fragment would have had to clear both the limo's windshield and roll bar and then magically dive downward and leftward like a guided missile while somehow, someway, in defiance of the laws of physics, still retaining enough velocity to do the required damage.

The next closest projectile you have was a bullet that was over 400 feet away that supposedly magically shed its copper jacket after merely hitting an oak tree limb (when in fact FMJ bullets will easily penetrate several inches into oak wood), and then, even more magically, supposedly sent one fragment downward to strike the pavement behind the limo and sent another fragment directly to the curb over 400 feet away, missing everything in between. Never mind that even an FMJ bullet traveling at a low velocity would not have behaved in this manner after striking an oak tree's limb.

Again, it is no wonder the WC and the FBI ignored the Tague incident as long as they dared, until so many reports about it appeared in the press that they could no longer pretend it didn't happen.

The Tague incident proves there had to have been more than three shots fired and thus automatically refutes the lone-gunman theory. I bet you didn't even read my linked article on the subject.

A bullet fired from a lower floor of the Dal-Tex Building could have barely missed JFK and gone on to hit the curb near Tague. A number of witnesses thought gunfire came from the Dal-Tex Building; there is photographic evidence that suggests a shot was fired from a lower floor of that building, as Harold Weisberg documented; and a Mafia man, Eugene Hale Brading, was arrested coming out of the building shortly after the assassination because he seemed to be acting suspiciously.

    And with your, "....bullet fired from a lower floor of the Dal-Tex building...." in mind, what about SA Hickey's AR-15?
66
Probably but not certainly.
Not so. There is not positive proof of what caused Tague's injury. The most likely cause would a ricochet from the first shot miss or a fragment from the head shot. I have gone back and forth as to which one is the more likely explanation. There are arguments for and against both scenarios but nothing that settles the question.
Tague was wrong. The second shot was CE399 and that whole bullet, except for a few flakes of lead, was found at Parkland. The curb near Tague could have been struck by a first shot ricochet or a fragment of the headshot. There is no evidence that proves or disproves either possibility.
You are offering an unproven hypothesis based on your assumption. Not very compelling.
Another unproven hypothesis based on an assumption. You are not alone in that regard.
Your argument assumes the bullet behaved in a typical manner. An atypical behavior remains a possibility.
Another of your unproven hypotheses.
The WC offered possibilities but did not reach conclusions for the same reasons I have identified. There is no proof positive as to what caused Tague's injury. This was the WC's final word on the Tague injury:

"The wide range of possibilities and the existence of conflicting testimony, when coupled with the impossibility of scientific verification, precludes a conclusive finding by the Commission as to which shot missed."

The above was the only sensible position to take on the matter. It is not necessary to prove exactly how Tague was injured.  It was enough to recognize the various possibilities.
It is simply not true that the WC ignored the Tague injury. The fact that they could come to no definitive conclusion doesn't mean they ignored it. They discussed the possibilities thoroughly on pages 116-117 of the WCR.
It is duly noted that MTG does not offer an alternative explanation for the Tague injury. He knows that any alternative would have the same problems as the WC's attempt to explain the injury. It would have the same ambiguities, the same lack of definitive proof that the WC faced in dealing with the matter. This is standard practice for the CT crowd. They give us their objections to the WCR but fail to apply those same objections to any alternative theory they might present. Since the rarely offer any alternative theories to the one presented by the WCR, they don't need to face those same problems.

In short, the injury to Tague does not refute the Lone Gunman Theory as MTG has claimed. Plausible explanations do exist that are consistent with a lone gunman even if they are unproveable.

Your arguments here range from uninformed to lazy to erroneous to misleading. What are the "plausible explanations" for the Tague curb chip and Tague wounding that preserve the lone-gunman theory? The least ridiculous pro-lone-gunman explanation is the WC's silly theory that has a fragment from the head shot somehow flying over the windshield and the roll bar and then diving downward and veering leftward (since Tague was to the left of the limo) yet miraculously somehow still retaining enough velocity to blast out a piece of concrete from the curb and send the piece streaking toward Tague with enough force to cut his face.

Something cut Tague's cheek during the shooting, because moments after the shooting a police officer noticed that Tague had a bleeding cut on his right cheek. Plus, the first two police officers who saw the curb scar recognized it as having been caused by a bullet, and Tague saw immediately that the curb scar was deep enough to have sent a chip of concrete that was large enough to cut his face. So it is comical for you to claim that, gee, we really don't know what caused Tague's injury. Yeah, we do.

To all but the brainwashed, it is obvious that a projectile from a bullet or propelled by a bullet caused Tague's injury -- that is the only rational, logical, scientifically credible explanation, but you can't admit it because your theory has no bullet that could have done this.

You don't even have a halfway credible explanation for the curb scar and Tague's wounding.

The closest projectile you have would have come from a bullet that was over 200 feet away and that had just finished plowing through a human skull and would have exited from the right side of the skull (but Tague was to the left of the limo), and this fragment would have then had to clear both the limo's windshield and roll bar and then magically dive downward and leftward like a guided missile while somehow, someway, in defiance of the laws of physics, still retaining enough velocity to do the required damage. This is one of the theories that you call "plausible"!

And, pray tell, how could your alleged lone headshot bullet have produced a fragment large enough and with enough velocity to gouge the curb and/or cut Tague's face over 200 feet away, when this same bullet would have had to leave a 6.3 x 2.5 mm fragment in the rear outer table of the skull, leave several tiny fragments near the 6.3 x 2.5 mm fragment (including the McDonnel fragment), leave a 3 x 1 mm fragment and a 7 x 2 mm fragment just above the right orbit at the opposite end of the skull, leave all the fragments contained in the high fragment trail, and also leave two large fragments inside the limo near the driver's seat?! Deep down, although you'll never admit it, you can't really believe this wild tale.

The next closest projectile you have was a bullet that was over 400 feet away that supposedly magically shed its copper jacket after merely hitting an oak tree limb (when in fact FMJ bullets will easily penetrate several inches into oak wood), and then, even more magically, supposedly sent one fragment downward to strike the pavement behind the limo and sent another fragment directly to the curb over 400 feet away, missing everything in between. Never mind that even an FMJ bullet traveling at a low velocity would not have behaved in this manner after striking an oak tree limb.

Again, it is no wonder the WC and the FBI ignored the Tague incident as long as they dared, until so many reports about it appeared in the press that they could no longer pretend it didn't happen.

The Tague incident proves there had to have been more than three shots fired and thus automatically refutes the lone-gunman theory. I bet you didn't even read my linked article on the subject.

A bullet fired from a lower floor of the Dal-Tex Building could have barely missed JFK and gone on to hit the curb near Tague. A number of witnesses thought gunfire came from the Dal-Tex Building; there is photographic evidence that suggests a shot was fired from a lower floor of that building, as Harold Weisberg documented; and a Mafia man, Eugene Hale Brading, was arrested coming out of the building shortly after the assassination because he seemed to be acting suspiciously.

Oh, Tague was wrong about which shot caused his wound?! Yeah, you bet. Tague said he'd already heard one shot before he felt something sting his face, but, nah, you say he was "mistaken." Right, of course. And then you fall back on the single-bullet theory (SBT) to justify your rejection of Tague's account, even though you know -- but won't admit -- that the SBT is refuted (1) by the hard physical evidence of the rear JFK clothing holes and of JFK's tie, (2) by Willis Slide 5 and Croft 3 and the Zapruder film, (3) by Connally himself, and (4) by the fact that we now know that at the end of the autopsy the autopsy doctors had established for an absolute fact that the back wound had no exit point based on direct observation of the probing done with the chest organs removed, including the observation of the probe pushing up against the lining of the chest cavity, proving beyond any doubt that the back wound had no exit point -- which of course explains why the first two drafts of the autopsy report said the back wound had no exit point (and Lt. Richard Lipsey confirmed that even after the autopsy, after Sibert and O'Neill had departed, the autopsy doctors were certain the back wound had no exit point).

67
TS-

Leslie Sharp had her membership revoked in the EF-JFKA!

She has been a pillar of the community, and possibly an embarrassment, for a generation.

She must have made up 10-20% of the posts, or maybe more, all by herself.

In a way, this is a little sad. I placed no faith in her purported datebook, but Sharp's threats to pursue legal action against another poster were obviously hollow. In sum, I thought she was harmless.

Sharp had more zany angles on the JFKA than any other three researchers combined.









68
MTG--

Thanks for posting.

Verily, the Tague shot is a puzzler.

I suppose it is possible that a bullet fractured somewhere, and then part of it struck the curb near Tague, and another part struck Tague in the directly in face. But such a small fragment would be likely to lose momentum before it struck Tague. 

The LNT-SBT is the contortion necessary to explain all the JFK-JBC wounds, given the Tague shot.

The FBI found only lead on the Tague curb, somewhat indicating it was a lead core strike. However, at that time the FBI was under tremendous pressure to support the LNT.

I agree, the prospect a ricochet, and only a soft lead core, striking the Tague curb with enough force to spray up concrete and cause a cut on Tague's face...is a long shot.

Another possibility is the bullet that struck the curb near Tague was not jacketed. That would indicate a shot from a handgun, possibly just a straight shot that missed.

While most 11.22 witnesses heard three shots, in the "bang....bang-bang" cadence, this does not rule out inaudible shots (silencers) or simultaneous shots.

I have no confidence in any explanation of the Tague shot.





69
MTG--

The record is fairly damning on JFK and the Diem assassinations.

JFK authorized the coup against the Diems, and the CIA even financed it. (Lucien Conein).

JFK was informed, in recorded conversations, the coup would likely be lethal to the Diems. (Amb. Lodge)

JFK obviously loathed and denigrated the prominent Madame Nhu (Diem's brother's wife). Again this is from recorded conversations.

Yet no one in the entire Kennedy Administration made any effort to extract the Diems, and Conein says his pleas for an aircraft were rebuffed, despite the US operating the huge Danang airbase.

Victor Krulak says he knew of no plans to extract the Diems. There isn't the scintilla of evidence anyone in the Kennedy Administration lifted a finger on behalf of the Diems, and a lot of evidence their assassinations was planned and financed.

At best, JFK was guilty of gross negligence, and to a loyal ally no less.

My layman's assessment is the the US should have worked hard, very hard, to modify Diem's rule, and build as many bridges to the Buddhists as possible. 

Having the Diems assassinated did not stabilize SV.

In a nation suffering a wave after wave of communist terror, a strongman was needed. Tough situation.



70
BD-

Well, I am still banned too.

We will see if the EF-JFKA can progress from the destructive WN era.
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