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31
I can tell you have no idea how badly you've embarrassed yourself here.

I pointed out that Kenny O'Donnell said that FBI agents pressured him into changing his account of where he heard shots coming from. And you replied by ignoring O'Donnell's account and posed a question that assumed the whole issue was hypothetical, as if O'Donnell never said that FBI agents pressured him into changing this story.

It's as if I pointed that Ronald Reagan cut taxes and you answered by saying, "Why would he have cut taxes?" as if he did not cut taxes.

The valid question to ask is, Why did some FBI agents pressure witnesses into changing their stories, and why did they misrepresent what some witnesses told them? We know this happened. It's been documented in spades. The question is, why did it happen?

Well, it's not complicated: There was a high-level cover-up underway. Some federal agents were ordered to suppress unwelcome testimony and evidence. Some agents did not even need to be told to do this because they didn't want to be the agents who forwarded reports that contained information that contradicted the government's version of the shooting. Some agents may have actually been totally convinced that the government's version was correct and believed that therefore witnesses whose accounts contradicted that version must have been mistaken, must have "imagined" that they heard shots from the knoll, must have "imagined" that they heard more than three shots (or must have heard echoes of the three shots), etc., etc.

We see similarly serious and varied actions of cover-up and reasons for those actions in the Iran-Contra Scandal of the 1980s. Many of the personnel who aided in the attempted massive cover-up did not realize they were aiding a massive cover-up. Some of the personnel suppressed or destroyed evidence because they were ordered to do so. And some personnel, the higher-level ones, knew exactly what they were doing and why they were doing it. Moreover, the cover-up came very close to succeeding. If just a few more key documents had been shredded, the Iran-Contra conspiracy may not have been exposed for years or even decades.

Sometimes I'm almost tempted to ask if you live on a different planet or in some alternative reality where federal agents and police officers never plant evidence, never alter photos or films, never misrepresent witness interviews, never suppress evidence, never destroy evidence, never try to pressure witnesses into changing their stories, etc., etc. That's a fantasy world, not the world that we inhabit.

Do you have any idea how many times FBI agents have been caught altering evidence, suppressing evidence, giving false statements, etc., etc.?

Here's what a Google AI response says on the subject:

Documented instances of FBI personnel planting or altering evidence or official records include the following cases:

Kevin Clinesmith (2020): An FBI lawyer pleaded guilty to altering an email submitted for a Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Act (FISA) application during the "Crossfire Hurricane" investigation. The Department of Justice Office of the Inspector General Special Report found he had changed the wording of an email from another agency to incorrectly state that an individual was not a "source" for another government agency.

Matthew Lowry (2015): An FBI agent in Washington, D.C., was charged with obstructing justice and falsifying records after he allegedly stole heroin from evidence, ingested it, and replaced the missing volume with a cutting agent before returning the evidence bags to the vault.

The FBI Crime Lab Scandal (1990s): Following reports by whistleblower Dr. Frederic Whitehurst, an extensive Department of Justice Inspector General investigation revealed systemic misconduct inside the elite FBI Crime Lab. The findings highlighted cases of scientists and agents altering reports, selectively presenting evidence, and providing scientifically invalid, pro-prosecution testimony in major criminal trials.

Frederic Whitehurst's reports to agency officials ultimately forced the bureau to overhaul its lab practices and launch widespread reviews of historical forensic testimony.

Links:

https://whistleblowersblog.org/government-whistleblowers/intelligence-community-whistleblowers/dr-whitehurst-and-the-fbi-lab-scandal/

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-32380051


Shall we talk about the conduct of some FBI agents and the FBI lab in the JFK case? Let's see: destruction of evidence, contradictory lab reports, producing witness interview reports that misrepresented what the witnesses said, etc. etc. I just have to wonder what you have read on the JFK case to not know these things. 

Ditto for some police departments, especially the Dallas and Los Angeles police departments. Do you have any idea how many times the Dallas police and the LA police have been caught planting evidence, suppressing evidence, giving false statements, etc.?

Heard of the Ramparts Scandal involving the LA police where some officers and detectives were found to have planted evidence and given false statements? The city of LA had to pay a massive settlement to settle all the lawsuits that came when these cases were exposed.

Some links for your education:

https://journals.library.wustl.edu/lawreview/article/4627/galley/21460/view/

https://peabodyawards.com/award-profile/fake-drugs-real-lives/

https://www.prisonlegalnews.org/news/2006/mar/15/dallas-fake-drug-cases-settle-for-millions-jury-awards-damages/

https://digitalcommons.law.uga.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1208&context=fac_pm

"Dallas Police Officer Accused of Planting Evidence Turns Himself In"

"Crooked Cop Caught Red Handed Planting Evidence"

https://www.congress.gov/117/bills/hr129/BILLS-117hr129ih.htm
EXCERPT: In what became known nationally as the ``Sheetrock'' scandal, Dallas police officers and undercover informants were found to have set up dozens of innocent people, mostly Mexican immigrants, by planting fake drugs on them consisting of chalk-like material used in sheetrock and other        brands of wallboard. The revelations led to the dismissal of over 40 cases (although some of those arrested were already deported). In April 2005, a former Dallas narcotics detective was sentenced to five years in prison for his role in the scheme. Charges against others are pending.

https://pelleylaw.com/blog/2017/08/cops-planting-drugs-it-doesnt-just-happen-in-the-movies/

https://www.justice.gov/archive/opa/pr/2004/January/04_crt_041.htm

https://markshawbooks.com/assets/docs/New-Evidence-Proving-Warren-Commission-Corruption_Oct-26-2023-1.pdf

FBI Crime Lab scandal and Other Cases of Evidence Tampering/fabrication:

https://archive.nytimes.com/www.nytimes.com/books/first/k/kelly-evidence.html?scp=8&sq=Ultraviolet&st=Search

https://oig.justice.gov/sites/default/files/archive/special/9704a/index.htm (even this quasi-whitewash of the crime lab scandal by the DOJ IG contains a great deal of damning evidence of misconduct and incompetence by FBI crime lab experts)

https://www.washingtonpost.com/archive/politics/1998/08/06/minimal-punishment-meted-in-fbi-lab-flap/074b8ecc-8190-4983-a112-86504ff21be4/

https://makejusticeblind.com/a-roundup-of-the-key-facts-of-the-tampering/ (discusses a case where photos were altered by the FBI to help convict someone--gee, sound familiar?)

https://www.forensicscolleges.com/blog/resources/real-cases-of-forensic-fraud-flawed-evidence

Secret Service Misconduct in JFK Case and Other Cases:

We now know that HSCA staff counsel Belford Lawson, who conducted the Committee’s investigation of the Secret Service, suspected that a Secret Service agent planted CE 399 at Parkland Hospital. In a memo on the interview with Nathan Pool, who had seen a bullet on a stretcher at Parkland Hospital, Lawson noted that a Secret Service agent was close enough to the area where the bullet was found to have planted the bullet, and that following up on Pool’s testimony could have led to identifying the agent:

A Secret Service agent was for a significant period of time close enough to the elevator to plant a bullet; may lead to an identification of that agent; and will reveal the superficiality of the Warren Commission’s approach. (“Untaped Interview of January 10, 1977, with Nathan Pool,” HSCA memorandum from Belford Lawson to Robert Tanenbaum, January 12, 1977, record number 180-10089-10189, available at
https://ia801206.us.archive.org/31/items/nsia-PoolNathan/nsia-PoolNathan/Pool%20Nathan%2001.pdf)


Dr. Donald Wilkes, "The Secret Service and the JFK Assassination"
https://digitalcommons.law.uga.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1174&context=fac_pm

https://www.amazon.com/Survivors-Guilt-Service-Failure-President/dp/1937584607

https://www.usnews.com/news/national-news/slideshows/prostitutes-grenades-and-drunk-driving-20-years-of-secret-service-scandals

https://time.com/3449641/secret-service-scandal/

A good introduction to the subject of the dubious evidence cited against Oswald is Donald Wilkes' article "Lee Harvey Oswald, the Patsy: An Objective Review of the Evidence Concludes That Oswald Was Framed," published by the University of Georgia in 2013 on the University of Georgia Digital Commons: Popular Media website. At the time, Wilkes was an emeritus professor of law at the University of Georgia. Here's a link to his article:

https://digitalcommons.law.uga.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?httpsredir=1&article=1184&context=fac_pm

The case of Randall Adams. The award-winning 1988 Errol Morris documentary The Thin Blue Line documents the now-infamous case of Randall Adams, who was framed and railroaded by the DPD and the Dallas District Attorney's (DA's) office in 1976 on the false charge of killing a police officer named Robert Wood.

The film documents that the DPD used false witnesses, suppressed exculpatory evidence, discarded the most likely suspect (who later confessed), and refused to let Adams talk to a lawyer for two weeks. Gee, sound familiar? The DA was Henry Wade. The DPD officer who engineered the frame-up was Gus Rose. Humm, do those names sound familiar?

The Texas Criminal Court of Appeals overturned Adams' conviction in 1989 on the grounds of prosecutorial malfeasance (misconduct) and inconsistencies in the evidence. It had become clear that Adams had nothing whatsoever to do with Officer Wood's murder.

Yet, even after the Texas Criminal Court of Appeals voided Adams' conviction, DA Wade vowed to retry Adams, saying there was no room in his book "for a cop-killer getting off with anything else than the death penalty"! Mind you, this was after the state's criminal appeals court had found the DA's office guilty of misconduct! This says volumes about Wade's ethics and integrity.

Because of public pressure created by the release of The Thin Blue Line and pressure from state government officials, the Dallas DA's office eventually decided against retrying Adams.

Here's the transcript of The Thin Blue Line:

https://www.errolmorris.com/film/tbl_transcript.html

Here are links with more information on the DPD's sleazy record, running clear into the 2020s:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dallas_Police_Department#:~:text=in%20July%202008.-,Fake%20drug%20scandal,were%20actually%20not%20illegal%20substances.

https://www.wfaa.com/article/news/local/fourth-former-dallas-officer-in-fake-drug-scandal-gets-one-year-probation/287-338790876

https://www.chron.com/news/houston-texas/article/Dallas-police-hammered-for-fake-drug-scandal-1486478.php

https://www.nbcdfw.com/news/local/6-dallas-police-officers-on-leave-linked-to-illegal-search/2748127/

Here are links with information on cases of other police departments planting and fabricating evidence:

https://openscholarship.wustl.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=6013&context=law_lawreview

https://www.themarshallproject.org/records/4692-cops-planting-evidence

https://scholarship.law.bu.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?params=/context/faculty_scholarship/article/1903/&path_info=S_Fisher_Just_the_Facts.pdf

https://www.ebsco.com/research-starters/law/police-corruption-revealed-los-angeless-rampart-division
Discusses the LAPD's Rampart scandal, where the LAPD was caught planting and fabricating evidence in the 1990s. The city of LA eventually was forced to pay millions to settle the civil lawsuit brought by some of the victims.

https://jmarshlaw.com/chicago-police-planted-evidence/
Discusses three cases where the Chicago Police Department was caught planting evidence from the 1980s to the mid-2000s.

https://www.ojp.gov/pdffiles1/nij/grants/249850.pdf

Just so no one gets the wrong impression, I am not saying that federal agents or local police officers frequently fabricate, alter, or suppress evidence. These are not things that happen all the time or very frequently, but they have happened, and they will likely continue to happen on an occasional basis.

As some here know, I am very pro-law enforcement. I strongly oppose the leftist push to defund local police forces. Also, in my many years in the intelligence community, I worked with a number of FBI agents and found the vast majority of them to be honorable and trustworthy.

I am confident that most of the federal agents and military officers who altered evidence, suppressed evidence, misrepresented witness accounts, etc., in JFK case were ordered to do so and were led to believe they were acting in the interest of national security. 

Harold Rydberg, the person who drew the diagrams of JFK's wounds that were published in the Warren Commission's (WC's) report, was the director of the Medical Illustration School at Bethesda Naval Hospital at the time. He knew Dr. James Humes and Dr. J. Thornton Boswell, two of the autopsy doctors, quite well. In fact, Humes and Boswell attended Rydberg's wedding.

When interviewed in 2003 by William Matson Law, Rydberg said he believed that the autopsy doctors were ordered to misrepresent JFK's wounds and to suppress evidence of any frontal shots to JFK. (William Matson Law, In The Eye Of History; Disclosures in the JFK Assassination Medical Evidence, 2004, pp. 152-153, 420-428).

I find it interesting that Rydberg held the same view of Humes that I formed a few years ago: that Humes tried to leave clues to indicate there was more information about JFK's wounds than was described in the autopsy report.

Rydberg also said the following:

-- That the "stare of death" autopsy photo does not show the damage that was visible on JFK's face during the autopsy.

-- That there are many autopsy photos missing from the official collection.

-- That he doubted that the autopsy photos in evidence are the authentic autopsy photos.

-- That he and other hospital personnel involved with the autopsy or JFK medical evidence in any way were placed under strict gag orders. 


32
1. The ammo that hit JFK's head behaved nothing like the ammo that Oswald allegedly used.

The ammo that hit Kennedy's head shattered into dozens of tiny fragments (practically particles) and a few larger fragments, deposited at least three fragments on the rear outer table of the skull, and left two fragments in the very front of the skull near the right orbit. Oswald allegedly used FMJ bullets, but FMJ bullets will never, ever, ever fragment in this manner.

This is simply nonsense; Kookspeak.

Full metal jacketed bullets can indeed fragment when striking a skull while traveling at full velocity.

I'm not sure where you get your mistaken info from but you better check again.

Stop spewing misinformation.
33
No.11 reason: the 24” bag (give or take a couple of inches) as Buell W. Frazier described the way he saw Oswald  carrying the bag under  his armpit and in the  cupped palm of his hand.

No.12 reason: per BW Frazier, Oswald was wearing the GRAY jacket that Friday morning. Oswald had only 2 jackets, a gray jacket and a blue jacket. Oswald left TSBD wearing no jacket according to John Corbett because he believes Bledsoe saw Oswald on McWatters bus wearing  only the brown shirt with a hole in the sleeve. Ok, if that is true then how does Oswald’s gray jacket which he must have left in the TSBD get to under a car in a parking lot to be pointed out by some unnamed person? Oswald leaving the boarding house zipping up a jacket (per Earlene Roberts), could therefore only be the BLUE jacket. The description of the Tippit shooters “tan” jacket does not fit the  BLUE jacket Oswald had on when he left the boarding house. If Oswald discarded this blue jacket before he was seen by Brewer, how does that BLUE jacket wind up being found in the TSBD in the Domino room? And Who found BLUE jacket anyway?

In October of 1964, Frazier acknowledged that the rifle was in the bag when he signed a notarized affidavit stating that his car is the car which transported the weapon that morning.
34

The Education Forum calls itself a research forum but right now it is dedicated to NOT obtaining the best known copy of Darnell at the 6th Floor Museum...

It is avoiding obtaining and enhancing the Hughes Film in order to show Stanton up behind Lovelady in the Prayer Man spot...
35
It's truly amazing the conclusions the CTs can arrive at from something as innocuous as a cheese sandwich and an apple. Meanwhile they are perfectly willing to dismiss all rock solid evidence of Oswald's guilt, the kind of evidence that is routinely used to prosecute criminals in other cases, fingerprints, ballistics, medical evidence, fiber evidence, etc.


In his Commission testimony Captain Will Fritz was not going to let yankee federal commission members make a good Texan lie so when Commission lawyer Ball asked Fritz where Oswald said he was during the assassination Fritz responded with the truth...He told Ball that Oswald told him he was eating a cheese sandwich and apple in the 2nd Floor Lunch Room...That cheese sandwich and apple was Oswald's description, not Fritz's...Ball went in to panic mode and guided Fritz back to the official story, but not before Fritz had gotten the full truth out that Oswald was eating a cheese sandwich and apple in the same 2nd Floor Lunch Room that Carolyn Arnold saw him in...That is the same cheese sandwich and apple that Frazier is talking about that the un-named employee said was on the 2nd Floor Lunch Room table after the assassination...And if it was on the table after the assassination then it had to be right there on the table when Truly & Baker confronted Oswald in that same Lunch Room...The Education Forum calls itself a research forum but it seems to be more interested in writing overbearing rules than actually discussing case-cracking solving of the case like this... 

As to the evidence that was collected against Oswald, that was a combination of defrauded evidence and that evidence which occurs when an Intelligence agent is cooperating with his being framed...
36
Again... After Oswald was brought in from the theater, everyone gathered inside the office of Capt. Westbrook.  This office is where the officers filled out their arrest reports.

Inside this office was Westbrook, Barrett and Oswald's wallet (with Oswald and Hidell identifications inside and taken from him by Bentley during the car ride from the theater to headquarters).

Think about it.
37
   Hey Bill - Disagree regarding the "lid".
                 You do Not know for a fact that the high-speed chase, "would have altered any and ALL blood spatter evidence.....". And if what you are claiming was true, why did the FBI take photos of the JFK Limo back seat area?   

Royell, you can disagree with me on a supposed lid on that bucket, but that doesn't change the fact that there is no lid on that bucket.
38
I assume the 6th Floor Museum copy is a 1st generation film copy that can have all the scanning and digital enhancement planned for the original film done to it that can bring out Molina in better detail in front of Calvery on the steps...

   "ASSUME"? That don't cut it around here.
39
Curry was at the front of the motorcade and couldn't see what was happening behind him. He heard the shots as his car was approaching the underpass. It's not surprising that his impression was that someone fired from the bridge. It's very difficult to locate the source of gunfire by sound alone. That's why the shot-spotter technology used by many large cities uses triangulation to determine the source of gunfire.
40
JFK Assassination & General Discussion & Debate / Re: The First Shot
« Last post by John Corbett on Yesterday at 03:22:02 PM »
Not theoretical.  That is exactly what witnesses said occurred: “ 'just about as fast as you could expect a man to operate a bolt action rifle” (Emmett Hudson).

I didn't know Emmett Hudson was timing the shooter.
Quote


Most witnesses described the last two shots as being in rapid succession and several estimated the time between them to be no more than two seconds.

If those witnesses were correct, those two shots couldn't have been fired by Oswald. Some of these witnesses said they thought the last two shots sounded like they came one on top of the other. That doesn't fit your sill scenario of a Z270 shot followed by the Z313 head shot. The likelihood is that those witnesses heard two reports from the same shot. There are several possible explanations for hearing the muzzle blast and one other sound. It could have been and echo. It could have been the sound of the impact on JFK's skull. It could have been the sound a supersonic bullet will make when it passes near someone. I have personally experienced that third one. I have a neighbor who sometimes take target practice with his muzzle loading rifle. I have heard the double sound that rifle makes when he fires that rifle. A muzzle loader can't possibly fire two shots closely spaced. Therefore, it had to be two distinct sounds from the same shot.
Quote

You prefer your reasoning. But your reasoning is not evidence.
 

Nor is yours. My reasoning actually makes sense.
Quote

I prefer to base conclusions on evidence. Courts do too.
I would suggest it is ridiculous to suggest that your reasoning should supplant the evidence of 45+ witnesses who described the last two as being in rapid succession, real quick, etc.  Besides, reasoning could also work the other way: it makes sense that he would want to get the last shots off quickly as the car was getting farther away.

It doesn't matter if your reasoning is based on evidence if your reasoning is hair brained.
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