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31
JFK Assassination Discussion & Debate / Re: The First Shot
« Last post by Tom Graves on Yesterday at 09:26:51 PM »
There could be other reasons for those movements which you are ignoring.

What's compelling is the fact that the head turns and/or leanings over of those witnesses were rapid and they all occurred between Z-140 and Z-150.

Allowing for a one to a one-and-a-half-second gap between a person's (typically subtle, hunched, and hard-to-see) "startle reaction" and their head-turning/leaning-over-to-get-a-better-view) "conscious reaction" puts us in the "Z-124" area, not your Z-147 area.

And by the way, at "Z-124" the limo was, from Oswald's POV, completely in-the-clear between the traffic signal's mast arm and the foliage of the oak tree.
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JFK Assassination Discussion & Debate / Re: The First Shot
« Last post by John Corbett on Yesterday at 09:05:28 PM »
If JFK turned his head at Z-143 in response to Oswald's first, missing-everything, shot, would you expect there to be "definitive proof" of it?

No, I wouldn't. Without the bullet making a definitive strike, it is impossible to say with certainty when that shot was fired. The fact that you had to condition that observation with an "if' indicates the evidence of your theorized Z124 shot is not proof positive. If it were, you wouldn't need the "if".
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JFK evidently he didn't recognize the sound as a rifle shot.

He wasn't the only person in the limo who didn't recognize it as a rifle shot.

Secret Service Agent Roy Kellerman said it sounded like a firecracker.

Regarding JFK's waving to the people on his right, maybe he was just returning their waves. Maybe they were smiling at him and cheering, so he figured, "It must have been just another firecracker, or a motorcycle backfire."

Good point.

I assume that by "the first shot," you mean your first shot at Z-145 or whatever?

Jack and Jackie didn't exactly jump out of the limo and start flopping around on the grass, but they did turn their heads at Z-143 -- Jack quickly, and Jackie in an accelerating manner.

Jack Ready, Glen Bennett, and George Hickey in the Secret Service follow-up car all consciously reacted between Z-140 and Z-150.

Conscious reactions to the sounds of an unexpected nearby gunshot typically occur about a second after the shot.

It is a subjective judgement that the movements of the people you mention were a reaction to a gunshot. There could be other reasons for those movements which you are ignoring. You are certainly entitled to believe they are a reaction to a gunshot and I can't say positively they are not, but to me, the weight of the evidence is for a Z147-148 shot. We likely will never know with certainty when that shot was fired nor what it first struck nor do we need to know. There is very compelling evidence that Oswald did fire an early shot and that it missed his intended target. What is important is we know when his next two shots were fired and whom they hit.
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The Davidson enhancement of 2016 showed Stanton's face on Prayer Man and ended the issue...The Prayer Man people solved that problem by getting rogue moderator James Gordon to ban me on BS site rules violations he refused to substantiate and then focused on the strawman of calling for the original films...After all, by calling for the original films they were seeking the truth and not just using cheap tactics to avoid addressing the Davidson enhancement...In 2024 the 6th Floor Museum released its 1st generation copy of Darnell that, because it was a film to film copy, showed the clearly-visible female dress neckline of Sarah Stanton on Prayer Man...This second discovery was corroborating, reinforcing proof that Prayer Man was Stanton...The Prayer Man people had successfully fragmented the research community in to the Deep Politics Forum, The Education Forum, and the successor to ROKC known as "Jacks"...Each of these was controlled by favoring moderators who kept the Prayer Man issue from ever gaining traction...It was when the research community was forced to give an opinion on the dress neckline that Larsen implemented his strategic lie and claimed the dress neckline was forged...Larsen was forced in to this because the only other alternative was admitting the grandiose Education Forum was a gang of hacks who had their asses handed to them by a guy they ridiculed and banned...The clique that did that has now doubled down and are posting instructions on how to put people on ignore...

A credible website addresses the forgery claim and takes a second look at it with the best researchers and best evidence...An uncredible website draws back to its core clique and posts threads on how to put people on ignore...That thread is read-only and the comments are locked...And it originates from "The Moderation Team"...Ben Cole puts hope in this new administration...

Why is any of this an issue? None of it sheds any light on the JFKA. It is just a bunch of screwballs trying to make something out of nothing.
34
JFK Assassination Discussion & Debate / Re: When Was JBC Hit?
« Last post by John Corbett on Yesterday at 08:51:56 PM »
Between Z-133 and Z-143, JFK is looking at the spectators to his right (and either waving to them or brushing his hair back), as is JBC, who is just looking at them.

In Z-143, JFK starts turning his head quickly towards Jackie and then turns it quickly back to his right, towards the spectators.

At Z-150, JBC quickly turns his head to his left about 45 degrees and is "captured" looking almost straight ahead in the Z-161 Robert Croft photo.

In Z-164, JBC starts turning his head quickly back to his right about 120 degrees to try to catch a glimpse of JFK over his right shoulder, but he can't "see" (i.e., recognize) him because by Z-180 JFK has turned his head far to his right and has raised his hand and forearm to wave to someone, thereby partially obscuring JBC's (peripheral) view of his face.

None of the things you mentioned, other than the JBC Z164 turn, are definitive signs of a reaction to a gunshot. There are other plausible reasons for those movements. The only reason the Z164 is more compelling is because JBC described how he reacted to the sound of the first shot. We see him do exactly what he said he did. If I am correct that the first shot was fired at Z147-148, JBC would have heard it in the Z149-150 window and his reaction would have been roughly 3/4 of a second. The Z155 jiggle/shake of Zapruder's camera is very similar to his reactions at Z227 and Z318, both closely following when known shots were taken. To  me, that is the preonderance of evidence as to when the first shot was fired, even if not proof positive.

Point being: JBC consciously reacted to Oswald's "Z-124" shot about 1.31 seconds after hearing it, not "just over two seconds" after hearing it.
35


The Davidson enhancement of 2016 showed Stanton's face on Prayer Man and ended the issue...The Prayer Man people solved that problem by getting rogue moderator James Gordon to ban me on BS site rules violations he refused to substantiate and then focused on the strawman of calling for the original films...After all, by calling for the original films they were seeking the truth and not just using cheap tactics to avoid addressing the Davidson enhancement...In 2024 the 6th Floor Museum released its 1st generation copy of Darnell that, because it was a film to film copy, showed the clearly-visible female dress neckline of Sarah Stanton on Prayer Man...This second discovery was corroborating, reinforcing proof that Prayer Man was Stanton...The Prayer Man people had successfully fragmented the research community in to the Deep Politics Forum, The Education Forum, and the successor to ROKC known as "Jacks"...Each of these was controlled by favoring moderators who kept the Prayer Man issue from ever gaining traction...It was when the research community was forced to give an opinion on the dress neckline that Larsen implemented his strategic lie and claimed the dress neckline was forged...Larsen was forced in to this because the only other alternative was admitting the grandiose Education Forum was a gang of hacks who had their asses handed to them by a guy they ridiculed and banned...The clique that did that has now doubled down and are posting instructions on how to put people on ignore...

A credible website addresses the forgery claim and takes a second look at it with the best researchers and best evidence...An uncredible website draws back to its core clique and posts threads on how to put people on ignore...That thread is read-only and the comments are locked...And it originates from "The Moderation Team"...Ben Cole puts hope in this new administration...
36
JFK Assassination Discussion & Debate / Re: When Was JBC Hit?
« Last post by Tom Graves on Yesterday at 08:00:55 PM »
One has to understand how to assess probabilities of independent events. The probability that 25 would independently imagine seeing the same thing, which did not occur, while none would report what actually did occur, is effectively zero.

Was Hickey barfing, or picking up some litter?

Trying to retrieve a nickel he'd dropped?

Was Bennett leaning over to his right while looking straight ahead because he had a boil on his ass?

Was Roy Kellerman turned far to his right in the Croft photo because he was keepin' an eye on them Black "terrorists"?

Did Rosemary Willis turn her head towards the TSBD because she was hoping to catch a glimpse of LBJ and Lady Bird?

Was Connally's head turned so far to his right at Z-180 because the pretty gal JFK was waving to had caught his eye, too?

Did Jackie turn her head far to her left and have a concerned look on her face in the Z-161 Robert Croft photo because she was worried that he was using the wrong speed film?

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The CIA altering Oswald's work shirt into a dress neckline is Cinque worthy. You're Not doing your cause any favors with these wild claims.

Dear Stormtrooper Storing,

I think you've got it backwards.

Doyle's saying Larsen claimed that the evil, evil, evil CIA made the Oswald figure look like a woman.

Are you saying that's what the evil, evil, evil CIA did?

-- Tom
38
So are you NOW claiming that these 2 women sprinting up the sidewalk are in the Wiegman Film? That we just can Not see them? Is that your new wrinkle? This is what happens when you Fail to thoroughly think through your claim. It requires patching. Again, you need to CHANGE THE TIMELINES.

Dear Stormtrooper Storing,

That's not what Doyle's saying.

He's saying that from their locations on the north side of Elm Street during the motorcade, Calvery and Reed were close enough to the TSBD steps to be able to get them about five seconds before Darnell "captured" them on film there. In other words, if Darnell had started filming the steps about five seconds earlier, he would have "captured" Calvery's telling Shelley and Lovelady that JFK had been hit.

-- Tom
39
JFK Assassination Discussion & Debate / Re: The First Shot
« Last post by Tom Graves on Yesterday at 07:20:41 PM »
There is no definitive proof as to why JFK turned his head [quickly and briefly to his left at Z-143].

If JFK turned his head at Z-143 in response to Oswald's first, missing-everything, shot, would you expect there to be "definitive proof" of it?

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What I do know is after the first shot, he resumed waving to the spectators on the north side of Elm St. as if nothing was wrong. I seriously doubt that would have been his reaction if he had recognized the sound as a gunshot as JBC did.

JFK evidently he didn't recognize the sound as a rifle shot.

He wasn't the only person in the limo who didn't recognize it as a rifle shot.

Secret Service Agent Roy Kellerman said it sounded like a firecracker.

Regarding JFK's waving to the people on his right, maybe he was just returning their waves. Maybe they were smiling at him and cheering, so he figured, "It must have been just another firecracker, or a motorcycle backfire."

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My guess is the roar of the accelerating motorcycle escort muffled the sound of the first shot.

Good point.

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The people who showed the least amount of reaction to the first shot are those closest to the motorcycles. That would be Jack, Jackie, and the agents in the Queen Mary.

I assume that by "the first shot," you mean your first shot at Z-145 or whatever?

Jack and Jackie didn't exactly jump out of the limo and start flopping around on the grass, but they did turn their heads at Z-143 -- Jack quickly, and Jackie in an accelerating manner.

Jack Ready, Glen Bennett, and George Hickey in the Secret Service follow-up car all consciously reacted between Z-140 and Z-150.

Conscious reactions to the sounds of an unexpected nearby gunshot typically occur about a second after the shot.
40
JFK Assassination Discussion & Debate / Re: Oswald In Helsinki
« Last post by Tom Scully on Yesterday at 07:13:36 PM »
Interesting tidbit on LHO first crossing the border into Russia:

"There is also a curious snippet from a man named Bill Trousdale, who happened to share a train from Helsinki into Russia with LHO. Fellow Americans, the pair bantered a bit on the train.

According to JFK Facts, “Trousdale saw Oswald get special treatment from the Russian border guards: “At the border my bags were given pretty thorough going over,” Trousdale wrote, “but they scarcely looked at Lee’s.’”

Was LHO already a de facto KGB asset, and waved through the Russian border?

Some have posited LHO may have been working for CIA'er Bruce Solie, who is further posited to have been a KGB asset.
That is an interesting CT on JFKA-world.

So...how long did LHO remain a KGB asset? Was LHO a witting KGB asset? Did the KGB "lay off" LHO onto G2 or DGI??

Why was LBJ so concerned about LHO-Havana connections?

At least since 2018, Trousdale's claims were public, four or five years before Finland's SUPO released a rail passenger manifest
supporting/confirming Trousdale's recollection.

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https://www.scholarlyroadsideservice.com/blog_entry/travels-with-harvey
Travels with Harvey - scholarlyroadsideservice.com
Feb 15, 2018 · But that evening Alexis and I went on line and confirmed most of the details in stories about Oswald’s travels. All that is left is to see Bill’s diary itself. Roll the clock forward three months …

September, 2023

https://yle.fi/a/74-20064205

And...

substack.com
https://jfkfacts.substack.com/p/the-finland-file-how-did-oswald-get
The Finland File: Asked How Did Oswald Get to Helsinki?
Jan 6, 2025 · The file contained a passenger manifest of the train that Oswald took on his way to the Soviet Union, which revealed there was another American
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