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31
Oh, dear, this is not going the way Royell had hoped. Let's see, if Royell's and Dan's Fake Shelley and Lovelady are in fact Real Shelley and Lovelady, as they of course are, then where are the conspirators who just exited the Getaway Car in Royell's exotic scenario? Readers await your next move, Royell and Fake Dan, with eager anticipation.

We must, of course, also write Fake Email Bogus Imposter Kamp out of the scenario as well. Oh, dear, how embarrassing.

Bart Kamp has been, of course, the leading proponent of Prayer Man. Notwithstanding this, he has done an amazing amount of valuable research and has assembled one of the truly great JFKA resources, which I have consulted at least a hundred times (just as I have done with the John Armstrong Collection). I find it beyond ludicrous that he would be accused of manipulating an image to generate a Fake Shelley and Lovelady for no conceivable purpose. That this is silly thread has gone on as long as it has tells you WAY more about his accusers than about Bart.

    The Couch/Darnell images show: (1) Shelley/Lovelady still in front of the TSBD , (2) Officer Baker having almost reached the TSBD, and, (3) "2 Guys" behind Officer Baker walking alongside the car. ALL of this is happening simultaneously. It is physically impossible for the "2 Guys" to be Shelley/Lovelady. Shelley/Lovelady can Not be in 2 different places simultaneously.
32


http://jfk-archives.blogspot.com/Prayer (Wo)Man Discussions

   The above clearly shows Lovelady still standing on the TSBD Steps as Officer Baker runs across the Elm St Extension. So exactly WHERE did those "2 Guys" walking alongside the car and down the Elm St Extension come from? They came from inside the car. There is no other place they could have come from in that scant amount of time following the kill shot.
33
RS and BD:

Yes, all points of view on the JFKA should be allowed in a forum if politely expressed, and, in general, current politics should be avoided.

The images I have seen of Prayer person do not look like LHO. I think DiEugenio undermines his cause, in this regard.

Not one witness ever said they saw LHO as shots rang out. LHO was invisible. (Some eyewitnesses saw a figure in the TSBD6 window that matched LHO's general description, that is Brennan).

I agree with LP, that if LHO's only role in the JFKA was a patsy, then a ruse would have been concocted to draw him to a secreted area of the TSBD, perhaps to talk on the phone, etc.

"LHO was the patsy in the CIA plot, but they left him free to possibly go outside and take pictures of the motorcade as it passed" does not hold water, as it posits an organization with brains and resources---the CIA---made a simpleton error in their plot.

My guess is LHO was the TSBD6 sniper, or a look out.

As I always say, LHO as the sniper does not mean he was LN, and I think there was an additional gunsel that day.

Caveat emptor, and draw your own conclusions.





35
I guess you forgot about Mary Bledsoe seeing him on McWatters bus and the bus transfer from McWatters bus that was found in his pocket when arrested. quote]

Whaley's family in Texas claims Whaley's son and namesake, William, Jr. somehow went missing after Whaley's
first wife died of TB in 1935. The son was not hard to find. He lived his life as if his father did not exist.:
https://www.jfkassassinationforum.com/index.php/topic,180.msg54787.html#msg54787



It's truly amazing the things some CT will focus on. I have no idea where you are going with this. I'm guessing you are trying to somehow discredit Whaley. It is revealing of the mindset so many CTs have. Conspiracy Derangement Syndrome is similar to Trump Derangement syndrome. It doesn't matter what Trump says or does, his enemies will find a reason to criticize him for it. Likewise, it doesn't matter what evidence is presented of Oswald's guilt, CTs will find an excuse to dismiss the evidence. Not all CTs suffer from CDS, but the ones that get it seem to be robbed of their ability to think straight.

Trump and Whaley are victims? Thank you for the heads up!

BTW, if you moved your date of birth three years older, exactly, like I proved Whaley did sometime in his 30s years of age, do your really expect, if Trump had any say about it,
Whaley would ever be allowed to vote, again?
36
Oh, dear, this is not going the way Royell had hoped. Let's see, if Royell's and Dan's Fake Shelley and Lovelady are in fact Real Shelley and Lovelady, as they of course are, then where are the conspirators who just exited the Getaway Car in Royell's exotic scenario? Readers await your next move, Royell and Fake Dan, with eager anticipation.

We must, of course, also write Fake Email Bogus Imposter Kamp out of the scenario as well. Oh, dear, how embarrassing.

Bart Kamp has been, of course, the leading proponent of Prayer Man. Notwithstanding this, he has done an amazing amount of valuable research and has assembled one of the truly great JFKA resources, which I have consulted at least a hundred times (just as I have done with the John Armstrong Collection). I find it beyond ludicrous that he would be accused of manipulating an image to generate a Fake Shelley and Lovelady for no conceivable purpose. That this is silly thread has gone on as long as it has tells you WAY more about his accusers than about Bart.
37
Greg, you appear to be insinuating that my grandmother was not a hitwoman!  :D

Obviously, I don't KNOW that Craford wasn't a hitman, and you have the inside sources you have cited. My comment was based on his eccentric early life and placid later life, which would lead me to think his claim was more likely BS or greatly exagerrated than true. What is a hitman anyway? The term to me suggests something along the lines of "professional killer." Given the amount of evidence pointing to Oswald, and the unlikelihood (to me) of Craford actually ever having been a hitman or being recruited for that role in Dallas, it would take some really startling evidence even to persuade me this was a possible explanation for the Tippit murder. And I'll let it rest there as well.

38

At one time, specifically in regard to the questions being raised about Craford in connection with Tippit, I researched him as best I could, all the way up to his death many years later. He was a complete nobody all his life. He was about as much a hitman as my grandmother and about as unlikely a Tippit assassin as one could imagine.

What do you do about his confession that he was a hitman c. 1960-1961?

I questioned his daughter closely on that. First, was it true that he had told his brother--her uncle--that, and she said yes that was true, he had told her uncle that. Curtis (that is what the family called him incidentally, "Curtis") had not told anybody else in the family that to her knowledge, not her and she did not think he had told her mother that, but he had told his brother that. Second question, was Craford--her father--a raconteur type, a make-up-stories type, a bullshitter in bars type? She was serious that the answer to that was "no". I asked if she believed her father had been a hitman at that stage of his life. She said she did not know. I asked if her uncle--Craford's brother--believed it was true. She said yes he did believe it was true.

I think Craford had a rough early life, dodged a couple of bullets (not caught and charged), remarried in Oregon and was straight the rest of his life.

Lets just say your cheerful total confidence at your distance that Curtis Craford had never been a hitman any more than your grandmother was not shared by family members who were sympathetic to him. But you just know from your distance, don't you, you can just tell? :-)

How many innocent persons in history have been wrongly convicted on the basis of narratives that sounded simple and sensible. Only problem was the person didn't do it. Innocence Project issues. That's my caution here on Oswald on Tippit. And I know if anything is considered airtight in the JFKA range of things, its Oswald on Tippit. But he never got a trial and I have brought out a few things that never were investigated. And for me, its not because of any fun out of being contrarian. Its because, rightly or wrongly, I'm actually after the truth.

And because I did my master's thesis at Cornell under the late Martin Bernal, author of "Black Athena". Smart man. He aroused the ire of the entire classics profession by challenging the "Greek miracle" model of Western civilization, in which western civilization comes from the Greeks and the Greeks started by themselves. Bernal said the Greeks didn't start by themselves, that the Greeks themselves plus everyone else anciently saw Egypt as the source prior to Greece. Bernal said that was changed in intellectual history in the 19th century for racist reasons. Bernal said classicists today are liberal and not racist, it is scholarly conservatism (that's not meant politically) which is the explanation for today inheriting an historical construction "born in sin" in the 19th century born out of racism. The week after I signed Bernal to be my thesis advisor, a review came out in the New York Review of Books by a major-name classicist literally likening Bernal to the devil. No kidding--cited Milton on Lucifer ascending to challenge God, as Bernal ascending to challenge the veritable truths of classicists. A line drawing illustrating the review drew a caricature portrait of Bernal with pointed Spock ears, to make him look like he was the devil. Bernal (from England, whose father was a famous scientist and whose maternal grandfather was Sir Alan Gardiner, one of the world's greatest Egyptologists) answered back that if classicists though he was Lucifer in that Milton analogy, who did that mean they thought they were?

Anyway, Bernal talked to me a lot about "sociology of knowledge", of how knowledge is not only about facts but about how it is constructed. Neither here nor there on JFKA and Tippit really, just a bit of my background comparable to your interesting Roswell history.

Anyway I'm not going to press this further, thanks for your comments.
39
After dealing with this nonsense off and on for the last 35 years, I just can't take any of it seriously. It never ceases to amaze me the lengths people will go to in order to make the case for conspiracy.

The CT community as a whole has been stuck in neutral for all of those 35 years and probably a hell of a lot longer than that. what have hey accomplished and what do they think they are going to accomplish by bringing up these non-issues over an over again. That have been spinning their wheels for as long as I have been involved in the conversation, Haven't they noticed their car isn't going anywhere. Do they really think they are actually going to solve this case with a different answer than what the DPD came up with in the first 12 hours? Do they think some magic piece of evidence is suddenly going to pop up out of nowhere that's going to finally provide them the proof they've been looking for six decades?

The reality is that none of them are actually trying to solve anything. They just want to find reasons to reject the WC findings. None of them will ever tell us how they think the assassination actually went down. That would require them to build a case and that requires real evidence that answers the key questions of who, what, where, when, and how. The why will likely never be known. Not even the WC could prove why Oswald did it. But they clearly answered the other five. The what, where, and when are givens. JFK was assassinated in Dealey Plaza in Dallas on 11/22/1963. All that is needed to solve the case is the who and the how. The WC answered those questions with ample evidence to support both answers. The CTs rarely even try. Their whole game is to invent excuses to reject the answers the WC gave us. I would actually respect a CT who at least tried to answer the key questions. I can't remember when I ever saw a CT try to do that.

"Former" KGB Counterintelligence officer, Lt. Col. Vladimir Putin, whose predecessors in deception-based Department D of the First Chief Directorate -- today's SVR -- and its analog in Department 14 of the Second Chief Directorate (today's FSB) motivated overly ambitious, scandal-plagued, and revengeful Jim Garrison's and gullible Oliver Stone's giving us the "Deep State-exposing" movie, "JFK," and who himself installed Donald Trump as our "president" on 20 January 2017, is JUMPING FOR JOY that there's an ever-expanding number of nation-rending "rabbit holes" for us to fall into.

I do wish that our resident (or should I say rezident?) genealogist and Wayback Machine social-page-reader, Tom Scully, would look into probable moles Bruce Leonard Solie, Leonard Vernon McCoy, and Russia-born George Kisevalter -- whose folksy biography ("CIA Spymaster") by his friend, business partner, and former CIA analyst, Clarence Ashley, is, IMHO, full of lies.

Query: Who was that man with the Slavic surname who lived with the Solies on their dairy farm when Bruce was an impressionable lad?

Hmm?
40

   In Kamp's sharp enlargements you can see Shelley's black jacket and white button down shirt collar coming up above his jacket collar...Shelley's "Duck's Ass" hair doo is also seen...Lovelady's plaid shirt pattern and bald spot are visible...The timing is also the exact time that they were said to head up to the Knoll to check out what Gloria Calvery told them...Pretty much a done deal...

What makes the pair definitely Lovelady & Shelley with reasonable certainty is the fact Shelley can be seen pulling up and turning his head to talk to Karan Hicks as she ran by...It is very quick but you can see it in the best slow motion Gerda Dunkel You Tube blow-ups...For some reason Shelley changed talking to Karan Hicks at the concrete island to Gloria Calvery...That swap may have been an honest mistake due to memory or a deliberate muddying of evidence to avoid any witnessing of the conspiracy...

I think I did a bugaboo and called Calvery "Westbrook" in other posts...(Ooops)

   Above, you say, "... the exact time that THEY were said to head up to the knoll to check out what Gloria Calvery told them.." Who claimed this is the "exact time" that Shelley/Lovelady went "Up to the knoll". And by "up to the knoll", are you referring to the Island Corner across from the TSBD? Crossing the Elm St Ext and possibly STANDING on/near that Island is Not where we see the "2 Guys" on the Couch/Darnell films. Those "2 Guys" are in the middle of the Elm St Ext, on the driver's side of the car and IN MOTION moving down the Elm St Ext toward the train yard.
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