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31
JFK Assassination Discussion & Debate / Re: The First Shot
« Last post by John Corbett on Yesterday at 11:45:20 PM »
Ironically, this is the same single witness Corbett bases the entirety of his opinion on.
A man who went into shock after suffering a life-threatening, massively traumatic gunshot injury through the torso.
There is copious research highlighting the effects such a traumatic injury can have on the memory recall of the victims.
There is ample evidence that Connally is suffering from a number of these effects.
He is possibly the most unreliable witness to the shooting in Dealey Plaza.
Researchers like yourself and Corbett treat him as if he were a bystander recalling what he witnessed. At no point do either of you acknowledge how the trauma and shock of his life-threatening injury may have affected his recall of events.

Zapruder corroborates Connally. That's what makes him credible.
32
JFK Assassination Discussion & Debate / Re: Things I don't care about
« Last post by John Corbett on Yesterday at 11:43:26 PM »
History would suggest - the UFO field being one notable example - that governmental disinformation agents and cognitive infiltrators would be far more likely to be promoting self-evident wackiness like Prayer Man or Harvey and Lee than trying to defend and prop up the LN narrative. It's odd that CTers seemingly never grasp this reality.

I will confess, why the LN zealots feel compelled to zealously defend the LN narrative as though it were their religion is a mystery to me, but it certainly isn't because they have been recruited by the CIA; there may have been some of that in the early days, but not 62 years later. A wacky CTer would be a far more likely candidate. On the other hand, every area of weirdness including the JFKA is rife with true wackos whose true wackiness has nothing to do with being a disiniformation agent or cognitive infiltrator - so separating the faux crazies from the genuine ones poses a bit of a challenge.

This is why, I imagine, the LN zealots tend to be the ones suspected of being cognitive infiltrators; zealously defending the LN narrative isn't self-evidently wacky, but on the other hand identifying a motive for this level of zealotry is rather difficult. To pick on John C since he started this thread, he claims to be a devout LNer who finds all this CT stuff beneath him, yet he haunts the forum like almost no one else. Why? Maybe he's being paid to do so, ya think? Some of the CTers here would fit the more likely profile of a cognitive infiltrator - but maybe they're just genuine wackos, ya think? Yep, it's a challenge.

At the Ed Forum, I always thought the CIA could not invent a better cognitive infiltrator than Dr. Niederwacky - a licensed psychiatrist who nevertheless spouts jaw-dropping nonsense about almost every topic while accusing anyone who disagrees (including little old me, for God's sake) of being a cognitive infiltrator! He has almost single-handedly destroyed the Ed Forum. He probably isn't one, but that's what a cognitive infiltrator would look like.

Why would the CIA have ever cared what goes on in forums such as this. At their peaks these forums might have reached a few hundred people and now the regular participants number in the dozens. If people have been getting paid for posting pro-LN material, somebody owes me a shitload of back pay.
33
JFK Assassination Discussion & Debate / Re: Things I don't care about
« Last post by Lance Payette on Yesterday at 11:37:26 PM »

Why don't the "skeptics" ever attack the Prayer Man theory?...

Is it because some CT-ers are actually Agent Provocateurs trying to discredit the genuine CT community with crazy claims?...

History would suggest - the UFO field being one notable example - that governmental disinformation agents and cognitive infiltrators would be far more likely to be promoting self-evident wackiness like Prayer Man or Harvey and Lee than trying to defend and prop up the LN narrative. It's odd that CTers seemingly never grasp this reality.

I will confess, why the LN zealots feel compelled to zealously defend the LN narrative as though it were their religion is a mystery to me, but it certainly isn't because they have been recruited by the CIA; there may have been some of that in the early days, but not 62 years later. A wacky CTer would be a far more likely candidate. On the other hand, every area of weirdness including the JFKA is rife with true wackos whose true wackiness has nothing to do with being a disiniformation agent or cognitive infiltrator - so separating the faux crazies from the genuine ones poses a bit of a challenge.

This is why, I imagine, the LN zealots tend to be the ones suspected of being cognitive infiltrators; zealously defending the LN narrative isn't self-evidently wacky, but on the other hand identifying a motive for this level of zealotry is rather difficult. To pick on John C since he started this thread, he claims to be a devout LNer who finds all this CT stuff beneath him, yet he haunts the forum like almost no one else. Why? Maybe he's being paid to do so, ya think? Some of the CTers here would fit the more likely profile of a cognitive infiltrator - but maybe they're just genuine wackos, ya think? Yep, it's a challenge.

At the Ed Forum, I always thought the CIA could not invent a better cognitive infiltrator than Dr. Niederwacky - a licensed psychiatrist who nevertheless spouts jaw-dropping nonsense about almost every topic while accusing anyone who disagrees (including little old me, for God's sake) of being a cognitive infiltrator! He has almost single-handedly destroyed the Ed Forum. He probably isn't one, but that's what a cognitive infiltrator would look like.
34
How did Shelley and Lovelady get there within that time, you ask? By walking back into the building from the front steps where they were watching the motorcade?

How obvious is that!
They walked from the front steps, through the lobby, and towards the back of the first floor.
A distance of approximately 80 feet.
Strolling along at 3mph for 20 seconds covers 88 feet.

So, let's reverse engineer that.

Time after shots
 (seconds)

      60          Adams hits first floor where she sees Shelley and Lovelady as she races to the back door.
      40          Shelley and Lovelady enter front lobby door
      25          In Darnell we see Lovelady on the steps and Shelley stood at the bottom of the steps

That leaves Shelley and Lovelady 15 seconds to get from their positions in Darnell to the front door of the building.
There is plenty of time for Shelley and Lovelady to make it to the location Adams saw them within 60 seconds of the shooting.
However, how can those who have mistakenly identified Shelley and Lovelady as the men on the extension make this work?
35
How did Shelley and Lovelady get there within that time, you ask? By walking back into the building from the front steps where they were watching the motorcade?
36
I would recommend Oswald’s Game by Jean Davison, Oswald’s Tale by Norman Mailer, Case Closed by Gerald Posner, With Malice by Dale Myers and Accessories After the Fact by Sylvia Meagher.
37
We appreciate your candor.

Well, your list is actually the most balanced list of the lists submitted by WC apologists in this thread. You deserve credit for including Titovets' book in your list. Epstein's book argues for Oswald's guilt but allows that Oswald may have acted in concert with, or at the behest of, the Soviets. You were the only WC defender who could muster up enough objectivity to at least include one anti-WC/pro-Oswald book in your list.
In post #44, the Supposed WC Apologist enthusiastically recommended Breach of Trust: How the Warren Commission Failed the Nation and Why, to wit:

Now that I'm rereading it, I cannot believe that no one has mentioned Breach of Trust: How the Warren Commission Failed the Nation and Why by Gerald McKnight. McKnight was a serious academic, and this book is widely regarded as one of the two or three absolute best CT tomes. McKnight doesn't go off on any wild CT tangents but simply provides a pretty devastating alternative perspective on the WC and the events swirling around it.

What makes JFKA discussions tedious and unproductive is that virtually everyone is a one-dimensional quasi-religious fanatic who has planted his flag in the LN narrative or some CT alternative and feels compelled to demonize anyone who declines to join his church. Hence, one who is by no means a WC Apologist must be characterized as such so this convenient strawman may be demonized. The JFKA community on both sides simply cannot deal with someone who refuses to be pigeonholed because he has no great emotional involvment in JFK or who killed him. The dynamics are exactly those of the many, many religious debates in which I have participated over the decades.

For the record, your Supposed WC Apologist also just finished rereading William Matson Law's highly readable In the Eye of History in connection with revisiting the truly puzzling death of William Bruce Pitzer. The interviews are of uneven quality - O'Neill and Sibert, who both strongly disavowed the SBT, are excellent - but anyone with a semi-open mind cannot avoid the nagging suspicion that the orthodox LN narrative is not the full story. I, however, have no deep emotional need to plant my flag in any particular notion of what the missing pieces may be; as with all areas of weirdness in which I am involved, I can live with the ambiguity and uncertainty. I don't need a JFKA church.
38
JFK Assassination Discussion & Debate / Re: The First Shot
« Last post by Dan O'meara on Yesterday at 10:52:51 PM »
Not all. I certainly agree there was no early missed shot.  So did the Connallys.  The problem with your scenario is that it conflicts with the Connally’s clear recollections that JBC was not struck in the back by the first shot..

Ironically, this is the same single witness Corbett bases the entirety of his opinion on.
A man who went into shock after suffering a life-threatening, massively traumatic gunshot injury through the torso.
There is copious research highlighting the effects such a traumatic injury can have on the memory recall of the victims.
There is ample evidence that Connally is suffering from a number of these effects.
He is possibly the most unreliable witness to the shooting in Dealey Plaza.
Researchers like yourself and Corbett treat him as if he were a bystander recalling what he witnessed. At no point do either of you acknowledge how the trauma and shock of his life-threatening injury may have affected his recall of events.

39
    The Darnell/Couch film images that show Officer Baker running across the Island, have been given a time stamp of ":20 seconds after the kill shot". Do you agree with that :20 second time stamp?
    That :20 time stamp jams up Shelley and Lovelady being at the TSBD 1st floor freight elevator at Under 1:00 after the kill shot. This "under 1:00 minute" is when they allegedly were seen by Adams when she reached the TSBD 1st floor. The faster You have Adams reaching the TSBD 1st floor, you then are placing Shelley and Lovelady at that same 1st floor location even quicker. And Adams makes no mention of Shelley and Lovelady being in motion, as if Shelley and Lovelady were just arriving when she saw them. They were in position on the 1st floor when she saw them. The still frame you have posted shows Shelley being on the ground in front of the TSBD. This would be at :25 seconds after the kill shot, leaving LESS than :35 seconds for Shelley to go from the ground: (1) up through the very crowded TSBD front steps, (2) through the crowded TSBD Lobby, (3) unlocking the Closed Gate at the desk, (4) traveling across the TSBD 1st Floor, (5) arriving at the freight elevator. Again, ALL of this in Under :35 seconds. And, ALL of this is if Shelley IMMEDIATELY left his position on the still frame you posted. To me, this is far to fast for Shelley to do ALL of this largely due to his NOT being in motion on the still frame you have posted. The Shelley figure is at a Dead Stop and does Not look to be in any kind of a hurry. The same goes for Lovelady. The Tick/Tock here does does fit if you buy into the :20 seconds after the kill shot being tied to Officer Baker running across the Island. That :20 second timestamp is when the Shelley and Lovelady clock begins running. 
    This is why I continue to encourage you to do a thread on the subject of Shelley and Lovelady going through the TSBD front door. This is your very own unique idea, but it does have time stamping issues that You need to iron out.

Let's do something very few people ever think to actually do - let's take the WC testimony of Vicki Adams at face value.
She comes across as an intelligent and articulate woman in the transcript of her testimony, which is confirmed by the "lost Interview" she did with Mark Lane and someone else, where we hear Vicki in her own words (and she again confirms she did inded see Shelley and Lovelady as she raced out of the building).

Mr. BELIN - How long do you think it took you. to get from the window to the bottom of the stairs on the first floor?
Miss ADAMS - I would say no longer than a minute at the most.


Mr. BELIN - When you got to the bottom of the first floor, did you see anyone there as you entered the first floor from the stairway?
Miss ADAMS - Yes, sir.
Mr. BELIN - Who did you see?
Miss ADAMS - Mr. Bill Shelley and Billy Lovelady.


She is saying it took her no longer than 60 seconds to get to the first floor (this seems to be a maximum estimation) and when she got there she saw Shelley and Lovelady.
How did Shelley and Lovelady get there within that time?
Remember, even if it's just as a thought experiment, that we are taking Adams' testimony at face value - how did Shelley and Lovelady get there within that time?
40
JFK Assassination Discussion & Debate / Re: The First Shot
« Last post by Andrew Mason on Yesterday at 10:16:38 PM »

Like all true Nutters, you labour under the delusion that what you think is a fact, just because you think it.
There was no early shot.
Both men were shot through at z222/z223.
This is based solely on the mountain of valid evidence pointing to this conclusion.
Your opinion is based on a single witness.
Not all. I certainly agree there was no early missed shot.  So did the Connallys.  The problem with your scenario is that it conflicts with the Connally’s clear recollections that JBC was not struck in the back by the first shot..
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