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31
Here would be an interesting challenge for MTG: Instead of these endless posts of "What about this, huh?" and "What about that, huh?" and "Go read my article about this," how about you lay out in plain English your conspiracy scenario? Take us through exactly how you think it was organized, exactly what you think took place in Dealey Plaza, and exactly what you think the cover-up looked like. Give us every last detail! Name names! I would be fascinated. I would bet large sums of money it ends up looking like the JFKA was planned by Rube Goldberg tripping on LSD.

Truly, try it! Put up or shut up. Here, this will get your creative juices flowing:

32



That’s an interesting video, thanks Duncan. I don’t think it addresses an early first shot though. (One that would have occurred a few seconds before any of the first shots taken by these participants.) And it also would be nice for a replica sniper’s nest (with the window boxes, etc in their proper places) to be incorporated into the demonstration.
33


So you're another WC apologist who keeps repeating statements that you know are false. As I have told you previously, I have never said there was a shooter on the top of the linen truck. Do a search of all my articles and forum posts: you won't find one single sentence where I advance such an argument.
 

You say that like it's some wild idea,

You say that like you don't realize it is.
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yet your embrace such genuine fantasies as the single-bullet theory and the the FMJ-ammo-headshot theory.

Both certainties to people who know the evidence and are capable of applying common sense. I'm not sure you meet either qualification on this one. You seem to think that one bullet hit JFK in the back and another hit him in the throat, both barely penetrated and then fell out. That requires two magic bullets.
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Gun cameras were already a thing in the early 1960s. I am persuaded by Mary Haverstick's and Jeff Sundberg's research that the Babushka Lady may have fired at JFK with a gun camera.

Which speaks volumes about your gullibility.
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Have you read their research? Are you aware that some OAS assassins used gun cameras? You can Google it.

I did google and the only thing that came up were killings that were CAUGHT on camera. Nothing about killings with gun cameras.

Then we have this AI response to gun cameras:

Yes, gun cameras do exist and are used to capture video or images from the perspective of a firearm, primarily for training, analysis, and documentation purposes.

Overview of Gun Cameras

Gun cameras are devices mounted on firearms that allow users to record their shooting experiences from the gun's perspective. They have been utilized in various contexts, including military applications, hunting, and training exercises. Historically, gun cameras were first used in military aircraft during World War I and became more common in World War II to document aerial combat and training

Modern Applications
Military and Tactical Use: Modern gun cameras are often integrated into military aircraft and attack helicopters, allowing for real-time recording of engagements without the need to fire the weapon. They are typically built into targeting pods rather than being standalone devices

Consumer Use: There are several models of gun-mounted cameras available for civilian use, designed for activities such as hunting and shooting sports. These cameras can be attached to rifles, shotguns, or handguns and are used to capture high-definition video of shooting activities

.Training and Analysis: Gun cameras serve as valuable tools for training, allowing shooters to review their performance and improve their skills. They can help identify shooting habits and provide feedback on technique

BTW, if we were to search the archives, would we find any posts by you in which you cited Beverly Oliver's claim that she was Babushka Lady.
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I've already corrected you on this falsehood, but you just keep repeating it. My belief in a triangulated crossfire is not based on Garrison's claims, including his claim that Ferrie, Shaw, and Oswald developed such a plan.
 

By rogue elements of the CIA (without the knowledge of the director and his staff and most of the rest of the CIA) and elements of the Mafia, yes, absolutely. Plenty of other scholars share this view.

You seem to think a scholar is anybody who disagrees with the WCR.
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And? Here, again, you act like you're describing some wild idea when in fact you're describing a perfectly credible scenario that's supported by the autopsy skull x-rays, by the ballistics evidence, by the Parkland 11/22/63 descriptions of the head and throat wounds, by accounts from several witnesses at the autopsy, and more.

Isn't it amazing that none of the forensic pathologists who reviewed the autopsy material could find any medical evidence of shots from any direction other than behind JFK. The only one of them who believed there was also a frontal shot didn't base that opinion on the medical evidence.
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You guys are constantly labeling perfectly valid arguments as wild, crazy, nutty, fringe, etc.,

You are always labeling wild, crazy, nutty, fringe, etc arguments as valid. Like the one about the gun camera.
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usually because you have no other answer to them. Yet, as mentioned, you turn around and float truly ridiculous theories such as the single-bullet theory and the FMJ-bullet-headshot theory.

The Single Bullet Fact has stood the test of time. It is the only plausible explanation JFK's non-fatal wounds and all of JBC's wounds. The few people who have tried to offer alternatives end up with scenarios that require multiple magic bullets. If you dispute that, give us your scenario of those wounds. I'm not even asking you to prove your theory. Just tell us another way it COULD HAVE happened. Tell us where the bullets were fired from, the wounds they caused, and where the bullet went after causing the wounds. Take your time. Do it right.
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I've already explained this to you, but you again ignore my explanation. Again, given that the Dallas test firing only fired shots from two locations, the acoustical evidence does not prove that shots were only fired from the sixth-floor window and from the grassy knoll. It does indeed prove that at least four shots were fired, and that one of them came from the grassy knoll, but it does not prove that there were only four shots or that all the shots fired from the rear came from the sixth-floor window.

Does it make sense to you that conspirators who were trying to frame a lone gunman would shoot at JFK from three or four different places?
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I again remind you that the committee required that the 140.3 impulse pattern be ruled a false alarm, even though it passed the echo-delay matching test, and even though 8 of its 10 impulses matched the impulses of one of the Dealey Plaza test shots. They required this because a shot at 140.3 on the dictabelt would mean there was another gunman firing from behind, and they found that conclusion unacceptable, in spite of the evidence for it.

Are you impeaching your own "experts".
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One, this is a silly argument. Two, see above.

I'll say the same thing I said when you made this argument in another thread: the contradictory arguments are in your mind and are based on your distortions and misrepresentations of my research.

You don't seem to have a theory of what happened. You seem to have many. Anything different from what the WCR gains favor with you. You're like the guy who went to a roulette wheel and bet every number except the winning one.
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Perhaps you could quote Bugliosi's explanation for the timing-movement correlations identified by the BBN scientists between the dictabelt and the recording of the Dallas test firing. Let me save you some time: Bugliosi didn't say a word about them.

Perhaps you could quote Bugliosi's explanation for the fact that even the NRC/NAS panel stated there was a 93% probability that timing-movement correlations identified by the BBN scientists occurred because the dictabelt was recorded in Dealey Plaza during the assassination. Let me save you some time: Bugliosi didn't say a word about this.

Perhaps you could quote Bugliosi's explanation for the fact that the NRC/NAS panel stated there was a 77.7% probability that the 144.9 impulse pattern was indeed caused by gunfire from the grassy knoll. Let me save you some time: Bugliosi didn't say a word about this.

Perhaps you could quote Bugliosi's explanation for the windshield-distortion correlations on the dictabelt. Let me save you some time: Bugliosi didn't say a word about them.

Perhaps you could quote Bugliosi's explanation for the fact that N-waves from supersonic rifle fire occur on the dictabelt; that those N-waves occur only among the identified gunshot impulse patterns, and only in the two impulse patterns that were recorded when the motorcycle’s microphone was in position to record them; and that the dictabelt not only contains N-waves but also contains muzzle blasts and muzzle-
blast echoes, and those N-waves, muzzle blasts, and muzzle-blast echoes occur in the correct order and interval.               

Let me save you some time: Bugliosi's response to this evidence was to claim, citing the FBI TSD's farcical report, that detecting "shock waves accurately" is "very difficult" and that therefore any statements about "shock waves" (i.e., N-waves) on the dictabelt are "extremely questionable." He, following the TSD's lead, simply ignored the fact that the N-waves only occur in the two impulse patterns that were recorded when the motorcycle's mic was in position to record them, and that the N-waves, muzzle blasts, and muzzle-blast echoes occur in the correct and interval, which debunks the speculation that these sounds were merely "some other sounds or electrical impulses produced internally” (Reclaiming History, Endnotes, p. 199).

Bugliosi's book was only about 1600 pages. He couldn't possibly deal with every nutty argument the CT crowd had made over 4+ decades. Maybe if he had lived, he would have gotten around to writing Reclaiming History II. Then he might have had room to address your silliness.
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Gary Cornwell, the deputy chief counsel for the HSCA, noted that the NRC/NAS panel ignored this and other evidence:

And the NRC essentially ignored, and never did explain how, if these impulse patterns were not gunfire, their timing, sequencing, and qualitative characteristics were so extensively corroborated by the other physical and scientific evidence in the case. Was all of the meshing of such evidence simply a coincidence? . . . Several witnesses testified that one shot came from the grassy knoll, just as the acoustics indicated. Just a coincidence? The shock waves and windshield distortions were present on the shots where they should have been, and absent on the others. One more coincidence? Since the NRC described their findings as conclusive and not subject to question, one must wonder why the NRC ignored all of this evidence that corroborated the Barger and Weiss findings, but is totally inconsistent with the NRC findings that these impulses are not the actual sounds of gunfire. One might also wonder why the NRC never addressed, never discussed, and never attempted to explain other "cross talk" on the Channel I tape that is totally inconsistent with the NRC conclusion that impulse patterns evidencing four shots occurred . . . after the actual assassination. (Real Answers: The John F. Kennedy Assassination, Spicewood, Texas: Paleface Press, 1998, pp. 112-114)

This is a completely illogical approach. There is no default position that says unexplained impulse patterns must mean they were gun shots. If the cause of the impulse patterns is not provable, it is illogical to assume they must be gunshots.
34
My foray into factoid-checking began because Harvey and Lee said that bank executive Robert Wilmouth had stated that the PMO should have bank stamps, to wit:

The $21.45 money order, according to Wilmouth, should have been stamped and dated by three different banking institutions. But not a single bank endorsement stamp or transaction date appears on either the front or back side of the postal money order. It is clear that postal money order No. 2,202,130,462 was never deposited or cashed by any bank or financial institution.

NOTE: Bank Vice-President Robert Wilmouth was never called to testify before the Commission. Wilmouth most certainly would have pointed out that the money order was never deposited to any financial institution due to a lack of bank endorsement stamps.


This sounds pretty specific and definitive, yes? In my innocence, I simply wondered what Wilmouth had said. I wasn't expecting to find any problem. The statements in H&L were supported only by a footnote to the FBI interview of Wilmouth. I discovered to my astonishment that Wilmouth had said NOTHING WHATSOEVER about bank stamps! You can see the FBI report here: https://harveyandlee.net/Mail_Order_Rifle/Mail_Order_Rifle.html. (Now, incredibly, the H&L site says the interview report was fabricated!)

I raised this problem repeatedly at the Ed Forum and asked what the source of the "bank stamps" claim actually was. As you can read, the silence was deafening. This is me back in 2017:

John Armstrong started all the silliness about the Klein's PMO not having the required bank endorsements.  In Harvey and Lee, he cited to a bank official at the First National Bank of Chicago (named Wilmouth, as I recall) who supposedly said this.  I exposed that the citations were FICTITIOUS.  The bank official never said anything about bank endorsements.  Armstrong's fiction became CT "gospel" and has been repeated throughout the conspiracy literature, apparently without any of these "experts" bothering to check Armstrong's footnotes as I did.  When I pointed out that Armstrong's citations were fictitious, which you can easily confirm for yourself, the non-response was deafening.

NO ONE EVER DID attempt to address this. They just closed ranks and declared me a newbie nuisance. I even went to the John Armstrong Collection at Baylor University to no avail. TO THIS DAY, I still don't know where the "bank stamps" nonsense originated!

What an eye-opener this all was! I realized that supposed luminaries like David Josephs and Sandy Larsen were fundamentally crazy and cared nothing at all about accuracy or truth, only about preserving their nutty CT narrative. All because innocent newbie me simply had enough diligence to check one of Armstrong's footnotes. I subsequently saw this scenario play out again and again - some nugget of conspiracy gospel had its origin in little more than thin air but was then repeated and repeated and repeated in the CT community until you were an infidel if you dared to question it. I have yet to check ONE - not ONE - CT factoid that stood up to scrutiny.
35
The Armstrong, DiEugenio, David Joseph, Sandy, et al belief system is swallowed and defended as a whole. As we've experienced, it is heresy to think
evidence like ours could be other than disinfo, irrelevant to the requirement that the Klein's money order was fake, not purchased by LHO!

One of many reasons why their forum is a joke! Lance has done awesome work on this money order issue and deserved credit for it.
36
This guy ( Lance Payette )is an ignorant nut job.

Oh boy the never-awaited return of Walt Cakebread.. I guess Royell Storing needed company amongst the most laughable conspiracy theorists on this message board?
38
The confusion regarding Kansas City, which was one of Sandy Larsen's big talking points and still appears on Armstrong's site, was: Under the agency agreement between the Federal Reserve and the Postal Service, the Federal Reserve was responsible solely for processing and paying a Postal Money Order. The agreement specifically said that the Federal Reserve had no responsibility for auditing a PMO for fraud or irregularities. The Post Office was responsible for that. In 1955, the process was streamlined so all PMOs went to an auditing center in Kansas City instead of a variety of auditing centers as they had previously done. So they did all go to Kansas City before being placed into storage at the Federal Records Center in Alexandria. The storage was for a fairly short retention period in case some claim was made and a PMO was needed as evidence. After that period, they were destroyed; tens of millions were sold, so storage would have been a major issue if they had been retained for years. I believe it was Sandy who found a newspaper article from 1955 saying that "all" PMOs would now go to Kansas City, and he and the H&L gang misunderstood what this meant. There were three functions: processing and payment (Federal Reserve), auditing (Post Office), storage (Federal Records Center).
Lance
Armstrong cited testimony collected by an official in a position to know who was apparently unaware that the Post Office had been able, because of new tech purchases
reported in June, to eliminate paying the Fed Res to provide manual key punching of the M.O. (on a key punch card format) face amount onto the
M.O.'s which become obsolete after LHO purchased some of them in 1962 and sent as payment to Dept. of State for the travel expenses that Dept. had loaned
to him.

Armstrong presented that those 1962 M.O.'s of which he had the serial numbers, supported that the M.O. associated with payment to Klein's for the
rifle, were suspiciously lower, considering how many M.O.s the Dallas P.O. was selling per month. I provided proof by displaying a late 1962 internal bulletin
that Dallas P.O. was to receive new format M.O.s


(Link to dated bulletin excerpt, I can't get it to display in this forum's BB code....
https://onedrive.live.com/?qt=allmyphotos&photosData=%2Fshare%2FFE47B6F7A749F492%21sbde028d3691746f7911bc18968150f98%3Fithint%3Dphoto%26e%3DNzQWy7%26migratedtospo%3Dtrue&cid=FE47B6F7A749F492&id=FE47B6F7A749F492%21sbde028d3691746f7911bc18968150f98&redeem=aHR0cHM6Ly8xZHJ2Lm1zL2kvYy9mZTQ3YjZmN2E3NDlmNDkyL0lRRFRLT0M5RjJuM1JwRWJ3WWxvRlEtWUFYd2NNTnM4MEJlQXN0ak5Gc2xWQlZVP2U9TnpRV3k3&v=photos


with higher serial numbers unrelated to those purchased in Dallas in 1962. The bulletin directed postmasters
to destroy via burning the 1962 M.O. inventory still on hand after roll out of the higher serial numbered, "print punch" M.O.'s to be sold in Dallas beginning
about Jan. 5, 1963. The new machines on P.O. counters performed the face value key punched code at point of sale, saving the P.O. approx. $166,000 nationally,
annually, that had been formerly paid to the Fed. Res. for individual manual keypunching.

The FLN you contributed accurate interpretation of was printed on each paid money order after receipt at the Arlington, VA archive, the FLN providing instruction
to the archive staff of exactly where to file each M.O. stored at the archive at the exact location it was to be filed, making them retrievable if necessary.

The older style M.O.'s requiring manual Fed. Res. keypunching all went to Kansas City for audit and storage. None received Arlington formatted FLNs and
thus would have been impossible or at least extremely difficult to retrieve in a timely manner since the FLN initially assigned a storage location at Arlington
facilitating the quick retrieval experienced on 11/23/63.

The 1962 news reporting and that internal P.O. news bulletin blow the belief system of Armstrong and his followers out of the water.
Armstrong seemed never to have noticed the FLN you cracked the meaning of and certainly missed the 1962 news reporting about the P.O. purchase
on new "print punch" at point of sale M.O. printing machines, as well as the late internal P.O. bulletin which fully explained why the serial number on
the Klein's M.O. as so much higher, leavinlg Armstrong with no support for his belief the Klein's M.O. was fake because it was too high compared
late 1962 Dallas P.O. issued M.O.

The Armstrong, DiEugenio, David Joseph, Sandy, et al belief system is swallowed and defended as a whole. As we've experienced, it is heresy to think
evidence like ours could be other than disinfo, irrelevant to the requirement that the Klein's money order was fake, not purchased by LHO!

Archived image loads slowly :



LN Version before your FLN interpretation and my subsequent discoveries "influenced" incomplete face savings attempts.

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https://web.archive.org/web/20170806231524/http://www.jfk.education/node/13
.....
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http://harveyandlee.net/Guns/Guns.html
Oswald Did NOT Purchase a Rifle from Kleins
by John Armstrong - allegedly found at the US postal facility in Arlington, VA, and not at the US postal facility in Kansas City where all other unpaid money orders that Oswald purchased from the Dallas post office were stored? ..?
.... FBI records allegedly show that on November 23, at 7:55 pm (CST), Secret Service Agent Grimes was told that a $21.45 money order had been located in Washington, DC by Robert Jackson, an employee of the National Archives. But why would an employee of the National Archives have access to archived U.S. Postal records late on Friday evening? And how is it possible that a never-deposited, never-cashed US postal money order could be deposited at the FNB of Chicago, routed thru the Federal Reserve Bank, and then sent to a postal facility for storage (there are no bank endorsement stamps from either the FNB of Chicago, the Federal Reserve Bank, or the US Postal facility in Kansas City)? And why was that unpaid money order allegedly found at the US postal facility in Arlington, VA, and not at the US postal facility in Kansas City where all other unpaid money orders that Oswald purchased from the Dallas post office were stored? The answer is that this $21.45 money order was never cashed, never deposited, and never routed thru the Federal Reserve banking system. This unpaid money order was most likely taken from a stack of new money orders on 11/23/63 at the Dallas post office by US Postal Inspector Harry Holmes, a long-time FBI informant identified by the bureau as "Dallas, T-2". Holmes was likely the person who date stamped the money order "March 12, 1962" and it was then sent directly to FBI headquarters. The serial numbers on this money order indicate that it was "pulled" from a stack of new money orders at the Dallas post office in late 1963. ....
39
Bagley thought LHO was a "witting" CIA asset when in Russia. Maybe "witting," but reporting to Solie? 

According to Malcolm Blunt and John M. Newman, Pete Bagley realized from the documents Blunt showed him (which Bagley hadn't been privy to in 1959) that all of the incoming non-CIA cables on Oswald's defection had been routed to the Security Research Staff in the Office of Security instead of where they would normally go -- the Soviet Russia Division -- and that Oswald, therefore, had been sent to Moscow by the CIA.

How did Bagley know that?

Because he knew that someone of adequate authority in OS/SRS had to arrange in advance for said cables to be routed like that.

Caveat: Neither Bagley in 2012 (or so) nor Oswald in 1959 knew that he was an ostensible "dangle" in a planned-to-fail hunt for "Popov's U-2 Mole" (Bruce Solie in the mole-hunting Office of Security?) in the wrong part of the CIA -- the Soviet Russia Division.

Factoids:

Bruce Solie, James Angleton's confidant, mentor, and mole-hunting superior -- who was in Beirut (home of Kim Philby) in February 1957 right after CIA's spy Pyotr Popov was betrayed (by Solie?) in D.C. movie houses, who in April 1964 tried to convince W. David Slawson into letting Nosenko testify to the Warren Commission, who 1966 became the CIA's case officer for Kremlin-loyal triple agent Igor Kochnov (Kitty Hawk) in the tragic Shadrin Affair, and who in 1968 "cleared" false defector-in-place in Geneva in June 1962 / false (or perhaps rogue) physical defector to the U.S. in February 1964 Yuri Nosenko via a bogus polygraph exam and a specious report -- just happened to be Deputy Chief of OS/SRS and Chief of its top-secret-records-hoarding Research Staff.

Oh, and he was one of the five members of the HONETOL mole-hunting panel which found no moles in the CIA.

Look it up.

Oh, and he was probably privy to the U-2's specifications in January 1957, too.

Interestingly, Newman tells us in his 1995/2008 book, Oswald and the CIA, that all of those incoming cables disappeared into a "black hole" for six weeks and that the ones that mentioned that the former marine U-2 radar operator had threatened to tell the Soviets "something of special interest" didn't resurface until after the assassination.
40


At the 48 minute mark the sycophantic Tim Gardner and Eli Frame ask Kamp about Prayer Man being Sarah Stanton...Kamp responds by saying "Sarah Stanton was 300 pounds"...The two hacks Gardner and Frame giggle like frat boys...Kamp is making a diversion here in order to evade the issue...Sarah Stanton was filmed in the Prayer Man spot at 2pm when she left the Depository in the Owens film...The answer to Kamp is Sarah Stanton was what she was in the Owens film and saying Stanton was 300 pounds doesn't answer the point...Davidson just so happened to show that Stanton in Owens matched Prayer Man Darnell...Because Kamp is being coddled by sympathetic hosts he is never made to confront these critical points...

Kamp's next evasion is to utter that Stanton had blonde hair...What Kamp is trying to insinuate here is the false suggestion that if Prayer Man was Stanton Prayer Man would also have blonde hair...It is well known in photography that the contrast properties of certain cameras and films will depict light colored objects as dark in shade...That is the case with Prayer Man where Stanton's white hair shows up as dark colored in Darnell...If you look at the 6th Floor Museum's 1st generation copy of Darnell you can just make out Stanton's white hair...

Kamp is outright lying when he said Stanton and Frazier both located Stanton to Frazier's left...What matters the most is where the witnesses placed Stanton at the time of the Prayer Man photography...Lovelady was quite clear that at the time the limousine passed the front steps Stanton was "next to me to the far right of the entranceway"...The best copies of the Hughes Film show Stanton's faint outline behind Lovelady in the Prayer Man spot at the time...The Prayer Man people know this so they avoid ever mentioning it...I have posted ad nauseum that the original Hughes Film needs to be gotten and scanned so we can bring out Stanton (Prayer Man) behind Lovelady...The Prayer Man people are making sure this never happens because they know what it will show...Next is Buell Frazier who made clear he was facing and talking to the heavy-set Stanton right after Calvery got to the steps and told everybody Kennedy had been shot...Frazier is facing Prayer Man in Couch/Darnell at the same exact time he said he was facing Stanton...Gardner and Frame are not credible research interviewers if they fail to confront Kamp with this refuting evidence... 

Kamp then doubles down by libelling me as a troll who never shows any evidence...This of course is a false accusation seeing how I am the researcher who has shown the most evidence that Prayer Man is Stanton...Kamp says Stanton was short and heavy-set and then proceeds to ignore my evidence that showed Prayer Man was short and heavy-set - while accusing me of not showing any evidence...Kamp further slanders that I cut out all evidence to the contrary and common sense and that I am stuck in a delusional belief (projection anyone?)...Kamp can't believe some researchers take me seriously...Easy to say when you avoid discussing any of my evidence...

Kamp then hangs himself with his incoherent coverage of the woman's dress neckline in the 6th Floor Museum 1st generation copy...In his incoherent statement Kamp accuses me of claiming Prayer Man's neckline is circular in the 6th Floor Museum copy...Kamp tries to reel off several deflections of film generations, sample size, clarity etc - none of which answer the basic point about the 1st generation copy clearly showing Stanton's dress neckline...Kamp ends his evasive non-answer by asserting I am seeing things that aren't there...But if we go to Davidson's High Key Filter image is that really true?...Kamp accuses me of hallucinating a woman's dress neckline without evidence...However if we go to Davidson's High Key Filter enhancement of the 6th Floor Museum copy we see the round neckline Kamp is accusing me of imagining right there in front of us...Gardner and Frame say nothing...

The two clowns Gardner and Frame chuckle along and offer no counter evidence to Kamp...If you analyze Kamp he only appears in places where the hosts are pro-Prayer Man, where no counter evidence is ever shown, and there is no adversarial opponent...Kamp accuses me of not showing any evidence in places where my evidence is pre-emptively censored...Put me on that same Ciphered Past podcast and let me debate Kamp directly and you will see a much different outcome than the uncredible one the two cranks Gardner and Frame produced...When Kamp mangled the neckline issue Gardner and Frame did not take control and demand that the evidence be articulated better...They just sat there like staring idiots while Kamp lied and avoided the evidence...When I PM'ed Tim Gardner to ask for fair air time to respond he accused me of stalking and threatened me with legal action...And this is on a public podcast that invites the public to offer any input that would aid in understanding the subject matter...The clique in full form...
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