JFK Assassination Forum

The hole in the back of JBC's shirt proves you are wrong. You can't just ignore this inconvenient evidence.

Absolutely meaningless. The tear in the coat and the wound in his back were both elongated. The wound on the rib was caused by a bullet sliding along the rib with the bullet in a vertical position for 10 CM before pushing through the rib.

Dr. SHAW - The fact that the muscle bundles on either side of the fifth rib were not damaged meant that the missile to strip away 10 centimeters of the rib had to follow this rib pretty much along its line of inclination.

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The hole is entirely consistent with a nose-on impact at an angle and entirely inconsistent with a tumbling bullet.

No, tumbling or yawing is a very rational explanation. Are you are promoting the idea the bullet went from Elongated (coat) to puncture (shirt) to elongated (back wound), and the hole in the shirt was cut back taking samples to the point no one knows what it looked like to begin with. There is no definitive explanation for how a shirt would tear as the bullet passes through it.

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And is it just me who finds the idea that the bullet would have continued 'tumbling' as it passed through JBC's torso ridiculous.

It continues rotating as it smashes through flesh and bone??

Why do you think it is cartwheeling? Yawing was the description I always read. Nose up or down.

The bullet was considered to be undamaged as it left JBC’s chest, but with greatly reduced velocity. The only damage that could possible have occurred to the bullet was when it struck the radius bone in the wrist which the rear of the bullet is flattened as a result. By the time the bullet had entered the wrist the velocity of the bullet had been greatly reduced which is exhibited in the shallow ½ inch deep thigh wound.

Dr. SHAW - The wound entrance was an elliptical wound. In other words, it had a long diameter and a short diameter. It didn't have the appearance of a wound caused by a high velocity bullet that had not struck anything else; in other words, a puncture wound. Now, you have to also take into consideration, however, whether the bullet enters at a right angle or at a tangent. If it enters at a tangent there will be some length to the wound of entrance.

Mr. SPECTER - So, would you say in net that there could have been some tumbling occasioned by having it pass through another body or perhaps the oblique character of entry might have been occasioned by the angle of entry.
Dr. SHAW - Yes; either would have explained a wound of entry.

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Where is all this rotational energy coming from?
It's like Corbett's suggestion that the bullet starts rotating 1000 per second as soon as it leaves JFK's throat!
 
I agree the bullet could deviate from its course as a result of passing through JBC and exit his chest on a different trajectory.
When it strikes his radius the bullet fragments. Tiny fragments are spread throughout his wrist (as shown in the pre-op X-Rays). A Slightly larger fragment passes through his wrist (explaining the "slit-like" exit wound in the crease of his wrist and the lack of a bullet hole through his wrist). But the largest fragment, the majority of the bullet, is deflected down into his leg after which it falls to the floor of Trauma Room 2 as JBC is being transferred from his stretcher to the operating table.

It was a round exit wound in JBC's wrist and a round entrance wound in JBC's thigh.

The bullet entered the wrist backwards with parts of his clothing on it and exited leaving a perfectly round hole in his wrist and then left a ½ inch deep wound in his thigh. Leaving only a minute amount of flakes from the bullet. No large fragments at all. By this point the bullet is a very reduced velocity.

There is so much nonsense and wrong-headedness in this post (as usual) that I can't be bothered trawling through it trying to straighten out all the misconceptions, misinformation, disinformation and misunderstandings.
As usual, I'll pick the misunderstanding I believe is most relevant to the discussion:

Why do you think it is cartwheeling? Yawing was the description I always read. Nose up or down.

I don't believe it was cartwheeling.
That's the whole point I was making.
The bullet didn't cartwheel or tumble or rotate or hit anything backwards.
That's the point I'm making.

What's funny is that you make the point about the bullet not cartwheeling, it only yawed - "Nose up or down", and then write "The bullet entered the wrist backwards..."
 
How did the bullet enter the wrist backwards if it didn't cartwheel??
Why are you not aware of the drivel you constantly post?

I told you how I reached my conclusion. Can you tell me how you reached yours?

I already did - a forensic analysis of the Z-film

The phenomenon of camera jiggle in reaction to gun shots is well established. Zapruder's camera jiggle is consistent for the second and third shots and we can determine that because we know when those shots were fired. Jiggle analysis allows us to be accurate to with in one frame. It is strong evidence for the first shot fired at Z147-148 although it's not as conclusive as for the later shots. We don't have visual evidence of that shot hitting anyone or anything.

CE888 gives us the earliest view from the sniper's nest during the recreation of the shooting. It shows the view from the sniper's nest at Z161 and JFK is just starting to pass under that tree. It could be that as Oswald was tracking JFK through his scope, that tree suddenly came into view in the mid 140s and that could have caused him to rush that shot resulting in a bad miss. Just speculation, of course, but it seems to be a reasonable possibility.

1] Oswald wasn't tracking anything as he wasn't in the SN at the time of the shooting
2] The shooter was fully aware of the tree, it didn't 'suddenly come into view' 
3] The shooter had visualised the open space just beyond the tree as the 'kill zone'.  The limo would be at it's straightest from his POV, with minimal lateral movement.
4] Read through "The First Shot" thread to familiarise yourself with this issue rather than just swallow the WC Report down hook, line and sinker.
5] If the sound of the shots was so distant it would not have created any Jiggle for anyone to Analyse. That's the importance of Sitzman's observation. Jiggle Analysis is meaningless for the Z-film.

As you are well aware, two members of the Methodist staff on hand for Tippit's arrival have said that the clocks in Methodist ER were unreliable. Dr Mollenhoff said, any discrepancy was due to issues with Methodist's time system.

Since when are hospital workers experts on time systems? Show me their statements, please? I can't find their affidavits. Or did they simply express an opinion that you find convenient?

If the time system was indeed having problems, they could have easily get it repaired and obtain a written confirmation of what the problem was. I have never seen or heard this was ever done.

The official document authorizing an autopsy (written on November 22, 163 at 3:00 PM) says that Tippit was declared D.O.A. at 1:15 PM. If you want to dispute that time you will need a little bit more than an alleged statement by one or two hospital workers. Even more so as the officers Davenport and Bardin observed the doctors trying to revive Tippit before declaring him dead at 1:15 PM (which implies that the ambulance actually arrived at the hospital before 1:15 PM). They also mention in their report that 15 minutes later Dr. Moellenhoff removed a bullet from Tippit's body. The only problem is that we don't know which time piece Davenport and Bardin used.

Btw, another contemporary document that confirms the times reported by Davenport and Bardin is the receipt for the submission of a an uniform button and a bullet to the DPD evidence room, issued at 3:10 PM, on 11/22/63 On that document it is noted that Dr Liguori pronounced Tippit D.O.A. at 1:15 PM and Dr. Moellenhoff removed a bullet at 1:30 PM.


At the time it occurred, JFK's murder was also not a federal crime. So why was the FBI investigating it?

That's a good question. Dr. Earl Rose objected to the removal of Kennedy's body from Parkland Hospital on exactly that ground, but the Secret Service broke the law and took the casket anyway.

Where Kennedy differs from Tippit is that he was a federal employee and Tippit was a state officer. I'm only guessing that this could be the reason that FBI got involved, but a more likely scenario is that Hoover simply wanted to control the investigation and leaned on Chief Curry to ask the FBI for "assistance".

MW: Since when are hospital workers experts on time systems?

You don't need to be an "expert on time systems" to know that a clock is off.


MW: Show me their statements, please? I can't find their affidavits.

As I implied, we've already been over this. Nurse Thompson's statements come from Earl Golz' Dallas Morning News articles. Myers interviewed Moellenhoff. As I've pointed out previously.

 
MW: If the time system was indeed having problems, they could have easily get it repaired and obtain a written confirmation of what the problem was. I have never seen or heard this was ever done.

So? It don't mean that the clocks weren't off at Methodist that day.

 
MW: The official document authorizing an autopsy (written on November 22, 163 at 3:00 PM) says that Tippit was declared D.O.A. at 1:15 PM. If you want to dispute that time you will need a little bit more than an alleged statement by one or two hospital workers.

All I need are witnesses at the hospital at the time who say that the clock(s) in the ER were off that day.

The autopsy permit was generated by the Justice of the Peace at 3PM. The JoP was not located at Methodist hospital, and is therefore not independent confirmation of the time of death. If anything, the time is taken from the documentation generated at Methodist, so it is merely repeating information based on the same faulty clock used by Liguori.


MW: Even more so as the officers Davenport and Bardin observed the doctors trying to revive Tippit before declaring him dead at 1:15 PM (which implies that the ambulance actually arrived at the hospital before 1:15 PM). They also mention in their report that 15 minutes later Dr. Moellenhoff removed a bullet from Tippit's body. The only problem is that we don't know which time piece Davenport and Bardin used.

...and if that timepiece was the same one Ligouri used.....


MW: Dr. Earl Rose objected to the removal of Kennedy's body from Parkland Hospital on exactly that ground, but the Secret Service broke the law and took the casket anyway.

It wasn't until later in the afternoon that Texas AG Waggoner Carr and the US Dep of Justice jointly came to the conclusion that JFK's death was not covered under existing US law. Rose was asserting Texas laws regarding the movement of the deceased across county lines.

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After Oswald was brought in from the theater, everyone gathered inside the office of Capt. Westbrook.  This office is where the officers filled out their arrest reports.

Inside this office was Westbrook, Barrett and Oswald's wallet (with Oswald and Hidell identifications inside and taken from him by Bentley during the car ride from the theater to headquarters).

Think about it.

I did think about it. In Westbrook's office (or the lunchroom nearby) the gray jacket was marked by officers who were never part of the chain of custody. Officers who actually did handle the jacket at the car park did not mark it and they remain unidentified until this day. The revolver that Hill brought into the station and allegedly carried around with him for more than one hour wasn't marked by the officer who allegedly took it from Oswald and Hill could not positively confirm the revolver came from Oswald as he was only given the weapon in the car that took Oswald to the police station and was told that it belonged to Oswald. So much for the reliability of those officers.

There is no evidence that the wallet Bentley took from Oswald contained the Hidell identification and there is also no evidence that the wallet given to Gus Rose, by yet another unidentified officer, was the same one as the one Bentley took from Oswald.

I have found no record stating that Barrett was in Westbrook's office and that a wallet was there.

You are making statements you can not support with evidence!