JFK Assassination Forum

If just half of them were evil, evil "coverup changes" instead of honest mistakes or misinterpretations of other tinfoil-hat conspiracy theorists, how many bad guys were involved altogether in the planning, the "patsy-ing," the planting of false evidence, the shooting, the getting away, the alteration of photos, films, and X-rays, and the (evidently ongoing!!!) cover up?

Oodles and gobs, or just a few?

You asked for a few examples - I gave you more than 400
You troll - I'm out

Can you give us some examples, Mr. CT?

Sure, Mr Nutter.  I got this list from John Iacoletti
it's incredible, really.

- Howard Brennan lied at the lineup because he was scared for his family.
- Howard Brennan had the ability to estimate a man's height and weight from seeing him in a crouched position from the chest up.
- Klein's mistakenly put February on a March deposit slip
- J. M. Poe forgot to mark the shells
- Studebaker accidentally didn't photograph the bag
- The police forgot to check Oswald's pockets for hours after he was arrested
- Buell Frazier was mistaken about the length of the package
- Linnie Mae Randle was mistaken about the length of the package
- Linnie Mae Randle could see through a wall
- Essie Mae Williams just didn't notice the bag Oswald was carrying
- Arnold Rowland was lying about seeing an elderly black man
- Arnold Rowland was lying about seeing two men on the sixth floor
- So was Carolyn Walther
- So was Ruby Henderson
- Amos Euins was mistaken about seeing a colored man in the sixth floor window
- Amos Euins was mistaken about seeing a man with a bald spot in the sixth floor window
- Jack Dougherty just didn't notice the bag Oswald was carrying
- Marina Oswald was mistaken about the camera viewfinder and how many pictures she took
- The bullet holes don't match because JFK's jacket was bunched
- The lower hole in the autopsy back photo is just a spot of blood
- In every interview and affidavit Charles Givens gave for over 4 months after the assassination he forgot the detail about going back to the sixth floor to get cigarettes and seeing Oswald there.
- Bonnie Ray Williams was mistaken when he said in his affidavit that he only heard two shots
- Carolyn Walther was mistaken about seeing a man with a brown sport coat
- Richard Randolph Carr was mistaken about seeing a man in a brown sport coat in an upper floor of the TSBD
- James Worrell was mistaken about seeing a man in a dark sports jacket run out the back of the building
- The first 11 officers on the 6th floor just didn't notice the long bag
- Helen Markham didn't understand the question 6 times
- The clock at Markham's washateria was slow
- T. F. Bowley's watch was slow
- Margie Higgins' clock was slow
- The clock at Memorial Hospital was slow
- Roger Craig was lying about seeing a Mauser
- Roger Craig was lying about seeing Oswald run down the hill and get into a Nash Rambler
- So was Marvin Robinson
- So was Mrs. James Forrester
- Ed Hoffman was lying about seeing two men behind the fence break down a rifle
- Gordon Arnold was lying about being on he grassy knoll during the assassination and shots being fired from behind him
- Rose Cheramie was lying about riding in a car with two men who told her that they were going to kill the president in Dallas in just a few days
- Acquilla Clemons was mistaken about seeing two men at the scene of Tippit shooting from her front porch, one who had a pistol and was waving the other man away, neither of whom resembled Oswald.
- Frank Wright was mistaken about seeing a man standing over Tippit after he was shot and then driving away in a gray, 1951 Plymouth coupe.
- Gerald Hill was mistaken about there being 3 shells in Benavides' cigarette packet
- Julia Ann Mercer was mistaken about seeing two men exit a green Ford truck with what looked like a gun case and carry it up the grassy knoll at about 10:50.
- Sam Holland was mistaken about seeing a puff of smoke come out from under trees on the grassy knoll
- Bernard Haire was lying about seeing police escort a man with a white pullover shirt from the rear of the Texas Theater
- Aletha Frair was lying about seeing Lee Oswald's driver's license
- So was Lee Bozarth
- Sylvia Odio was mistaken about Oswald visiting her apartment in Houston with two hispanic men in late September, 1963
- Annie Odio was also mistaken about the same thing
- Darrell Tomlinson was mistaken about which stretcher he found a bullet on
- O.P. Wright was mistaken about what the bullet looked like
- Bardwell Odum was mistaken when he said he never saw CE399 or showed it to anybody
- Earlene Roberts was mistaken about a police car stopping and honking while Oswald was in the rooming house
- Eugene Boone was mistaken about the Mauser
- Seymour Weitzman was mistaken about the Mauser
- Marrion Baker was mistaken about the 3rd or 4th floor suspect
- Victoria Adams was mistaken about when she went down the stairs
- Carolyn Arnold was mistaken about seeing Oswald in the second floor lunchroom at 12:25
- The Parkland doctors were all mistaken about the back of the head wound
- George Burkley was mistaken about the location of the back wound
- Sibert and O’Neill were mistaken about a back wound below the shoulders, a shallow back wound, and surgery to the head area
- Rosemary Willis was mistaken about a shot coming from the grassy knoll
- Jean Hill was lying about seeing a shooter on the grassy knoll
- Bill Newman was mistaken about a shot coming from directly behind him
- Nellie Connally was mistaken about seeing JFK reacting after the first shot
- John Connally was mistaken about which shot hit him
- Jack Ruby was demented when he said "Everything pertaining to what's happening has never come to the surface. The world will never know the true facts of what occurred, my motives. The people who had so much to gain, and had such an ulterior motive for putting me in the position I'm in, will never let the true facts come above board to the world".
- Whaley didn't record his passenger times accurately
- Oswald forgot that he was carrying around an ID card with the name he used to purchase the guns he used that day
- Oswald just happened to have 5 wallets
- The other 7 firearms experts weren't as skilled as Nicol
- The other photography experts weren't as skilled as Kirk
- The other fingerprint experts weren't as skilled as Scalice's examination of photographs 30 years later
- The post office forgot to follow their own rules about PO box delivery
- Railway Express forgot to follow their own rules about delivery of weapons
- Louis Feldsott said that Klein's purchased C2766 in June, 1962, but he really meant February, 1963.
- The police didn't record interrogations in those days
- Carl Day forgot to tell the FBI about the palmprint
- Paraffin tests aren't reliable, except when they are
- Vince Drain wrote up two versions of the report on the paper bag characteristics before the results were determined so that he could just throw away the one that was incorrect.
- Dr. Shaw at Parkland just accidentally referred to a fragment in Connally's leg as a bullet
- Oswald snuck off from work in the morning when he was supposed to be working to walk to a post office over a mile away and back in order to go buy a money order and mail an order to Klein's and then falsified his timesheet and nobody noticed.
- The police just accidentally mistook a copper-jacketed 6.5mm bullet for a .30 caliber steel-jacketed bullet
- John Hurt got drunk and just tried to call Oswald in jail to express his outrage over what Oswald had done.  Actually, no, wait, the switchboard operator just made up the whole story.
- Joseph Milteer just made a lucky guess
- W.R. (Dub) Stark was mistaken about Tippit's phone call from the record shop
- So was Louis Cortinas
- Albert Bogard was lying about Oswald test driving a car
- So was Eugene Wilson
- So was Frank Rizzo
- Malcolm Price was mistaken about Oswald practicing at the Sports Drome Rifle Range
- So was Garland Slack
- Edith Whitworth was mistaken about the Oswalds coming in to the Furniture Mart and looking for a gun part
- Dial Ryder was lying about mounting a scope on an Argentinian rifle for a customer named Oswald
- Dr. Humes burned his autopsy notes because he didn't want the president's blood to fall into hands of people with peculiar ideas about the value of that
type of material.  But he also burned a copy of the notes and a first draft report that had no blood on them, and he neglected to burn Boswell's autopsy
notes, even though they did have blood on them.
- Seth Kantor was mistaken about seeing Jack Ruby at Parkland
- Butch Burroughs was lying when he said he sold popcorn to Oswald at 1:15
- Benavides thought the killer had a squared-off hairline because the guy's jacket collar was hiding the actual hairline

...and you conclude from this that they had "all the ducks in a row"?

who is saying that?  -  nutters !
I'm talking about the hundreds of mistakes that are magically corrected over 62 years ....

It was a mistake, pure and simple.

Tom Graves and Fred Litwin have posited the CIA has no such thing as a "contract source."

This is in reference to the CIA historian's definition of Clay Shaw, made in 1992, as a "highly paid contract source" up until 1956.

The dynamic duo claim the CIA historian was mistaken.

So, I asked AI, "Does the CIA have people they call a "contract source"?

AI answer:

Yes, the CIA uses the term "contract source" (or "contract agent") to describe individuals who are not official, full-time government employees but are paid by the CIA to provide specialized services, information, or to assist with intelligence operations.

These individuals work under written or verbal agreements, often within the Directorate of Operations (the clandestine arm of the agency).

Here are the key details regarding "contract sources" and similar personnel:

Definition: A contract source/agent is any person—often a foreign national or specialized independent contractor—who receives funding from the CIA for services, and who is not a permanent federal employee.
Purpose: They are used for various tasks, including intelligence gathering, technical support, translation services, and security roles, often when the CIA needs to operate without leaving a direct trail to the U.S. government.

"Highly Paid" Examples: Declassified documents have referred to specific individuals, such as Clay Shaw, as a "highly paid CIA contract source".

Distinction from Officers: Unlike Staff Operations Officers (who are full-time employees), contract sources usually do not receive standard government employee benefits.

Distinction from Assets: While the terms are sometimes used interchangeably, a contract source is technically "contracted" (paid via a formal agreement), whereas an asset is a broader term for anyone providing information, which might be done through coercion or voluntary cooperation rather than a contract.

The CIA's use of contractors has been subject to oversight, with inspectors general noting in the past that the agency relies heavily on these individuals to fulfill mission requirements.

---30---

So, should we trust the CIA historian on Clay Shaw, or...some guys posting online?

I am not sure. 

But I lean to the CIA historian. I may follow up.

Dear "BC,"

You may follow up, and I may throw up.


Question:

Did Clay Shaw write reports for the (unpaid, voluntary) Domestic Contact Service from 1948 to 1956?

If so, how many?

If so, why didn't J. Kenneth McDonald mention this in his cobbled-together 1992 report?

-- "TG"

ME: How many reports, if any, did Clay Shaw write for the Domestic Contact Service?


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GROK: Clay Shaw, a New Orleans businessman, served as a part-time contact (or source) for the CIA's Domestic Contact Service (DCS, also referred to as the Domestic Contacts Division) from December 1948 to May 1956. This was a non-clandestine program where the CIA debriefed or received voluntary information from thousands of Americans (businesspeople, journalists, etc.) about their overseas travels and observations, particularly regarding potential Soviet or foreign activities of interest.

Declassified CIA documents and related analyses (including from former CIA Director Richard Helms' 1979 testimony and Agency historical reviews) indicate that Shaw provided information on multiple occasions during this period.

The most consistent and detailed figure from CIA sources is that eight reports were written based on Shaw's information/contacts:

CIA internal records (e.g., memos from the New Orleans DCS office) state that Shaw was the source of eight 00-B reports (a DCS reporting format) submitted by the New Orleans office.

A CIA article/review ("The Lie that Linked CIA to the Kennedy Assassination" by Michael Holland) notes the relationship produced reports over the eight-year span, aligning with the eight-report count in primary files.

Other Agency summaries confirm eight reports were generated from his debriefings/contacts.

Some secondary sources (e.g., articles summarizing the period) mention Shaw making 33 reports himself over seven years, but this appears less precise or possibly a mischaracterization—likely referring to the number of contacts/debriefing sessions (around 33–36 total contacts noted in some memos) rather than formal written reports produced by the Agency. Primary declassified records prioritize the eight reports as the count of actual DCS outputs derived from Shaw.

This DCS role was limited, unpaid, and civic-oriented (not covert operations), and the relationship ended in 1956. It was one of many such arrangements with Americans abroad and unrelated to deeper clandestine work or the JFK assassination events. Shaw's file and these details emerged prominently in post-1967 reviews after Jim Garrison's investigation.

43 web pages

Details on 00-B reports[?]

Jim Garrison investigation[?]


ME: Who, if anyone, wrote more reports than him?


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The Domestic Contact Service (DCS, later Domestic Contacts Division) was a large-scale, overt CIA program that debriefed or received voluntary reports from tens of thousands of Americans (businesspeople, academics, journalists, etc.) who traveled abroad, focusing on foreign intelligence of interest (e.g., economic, political, or Soviet-related observations). By the mid-1970s, DCS files included around 150,000 such contacts or sources, with roughly 25,000 Americans providing information annually in some periods.

Declassified CIA documents consistently state that Clay Shaw was the source for eight reports (specifically eight 00-B format reports submitted by the New Orleans DCS office) during his contact period from December 1948 to May 1956. These were based on his debriefings (around 33–36 total contacts/sessions noted in memos), but only eight resulted in formal written reports disseminated by the Agency. Shaw received no pay, and the relationship was non-clandestine/voluntary, ending in 1956.No declassified records, CIA historical reviews (e.g., Michael Holland's "The Lie that Linked CIA to the Kennedy Assassination"), or related analyses identify any specific individual who produced more formal reports than Shaw's eight within the DCS program—or even name "top" or "prolific" sources by report volume. The program was decentralized across U.S. offices, with thousands of low-volume contributors (often one or a few reports per person from a single trip). High-volume sources, if any, are not highlighted in public releases, likely due to source protection or the program's routine nature.

In context:

Shaw's eight reports placed him above average for the era, as many contacts yielded zero or one report.

Some secondary accounts confuse contacts/debriefings (~33–36 for Shaw) with reports, but primary CIA files (e.g., 1990s releases and ARRB-related docs) confirm eight as the count of actual reports written/submitted.

No evidence emerges of anyone exceeding this in comparable documented cases from the same period or office.

Thus, while many thousands participated overall, no publicly available information points to a specific person (or anyone) who definitively wrote or was the source of more formal DCS reports than Clay Shaw.


44 web pages

Details on Shaw's eight reports[?]

Other JFK assassination figures[?]


ME: Max Holland!


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GROK: Max Holland is an American journalist, historian, and author specializing in U.S. intelligence history, Cold War topics, and particularly the JFK assassination. Born in 1950, he has contributed extensively to publications like The Atlantic, The Washington Post, The New York Times, Wilson Quarterly, and the CIA's Studies in Intelligence. He edits Washington Decoded, an online newsletter focused on U.S. history and declassified records.

Holland is best known in JFK assassination research for his detailed analyses debunking conspiracy theories, especially those involving the CIA. His most prominent work on Clay Shaw and the Domestic Contact Service (DCS) is the 2001 article "The Lie That Linked CIA to the Kennedy Assassination" (published in Studies in Intelligence, Vol. 45 No. 5, Fall-Winter 2001), which won a CIA award for its scholarship. In that piece (available as a PDF on the CIA website), Holland examines how New Orleans DA Jim Garrison's 1967 prosecution of Clay Shaw for conspiracy in the JFK assassination was fueled by disinformation—likely originating from a KGB-influenced Italian newspaper (Paese Sera) falsely portraying Shaw as a deep CIA operative tied to covert funding via Permindex/CMC. Holland clarifies that Shaw's actual CIA link was limited and routine: from 1948 to 1956, he was a voluntary, unpaid, part-time source for the DCS (a non-clandestine program debriefing Americans on overseas observations, involving ~150,000 such contacts by the mid-1970s). Shaw provided information from travels (mostly Latin America), resulting in reports graded as "of value" and "reliable" (e.g., on economic matters like currency devaluation or trade with the Soviet bloc), but the relationship ended without escalation to covert ops.

Holland emphasizes this was a minor civic-type arrangement, not evidence of Agency involvement in the assassination, and argues the broader "CIA-Shaw" narrative was a successful piece of dezinformatsiya (Soviet disinformation) that Garrison amplified and that persists in popular culture (e.g., via Oliver Stone's JFK films).Other relevant works by Holland include:

The Kennedy Assassination Tapes (2004), editing and annotating White House recordings from November 1963 onward.
Articles on Jim Garrison (e.g., "The Demon in Jim Garrison" in Wilson Quarterly, 2001).

Contributions to declassification efforts and reviews of Warren Commission-related records.

Critics (often from pro-conspiracy perspectives) have accused Holland of being too aligned with official narratives or the CIA, but his work draws heavily from declassified documents, including ARRB releases and Agency files. No public records indicate he has direct access beyond what's been released, and his analyses are considered rigorous by mainstream historians. If you're asking in the context of our prior discussion on Clay Shaw's DCS reports, Holland's article is a key primary source summarizing the declassified file details without specifying higher-volume sources.

29 web pages

Summarize Holland's Garrison article[?]

Explore Jim Garrison's prosecution[?]


ME: You called him Michael Holland.


Thought for 16s


GROK: You're correct—I mistakenly referred to him as "Michael Holland" in one of my earlier responses

cia.gov

His full name is Max Holland, often credited as such in his works, including the 2001 article "The Lie That Linked CIA to the Kennedy Assassination."

foreignaffairs.com

2 web pages

Max Holland's other JFK works[?]

Jim Garrison's prosecution details[?]


ME: Please tell me the "details on Shaw's eight reports."


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The details on Clay Shaw's eight reports from his time as a voluntary, unpaid contact with the CIA's Domestic Contact Service (DCS, New Orleans office) remain limited in publicly available declassified records. These were 00-B format reports (a standard DCS dissemination format for information from domestic sources on foreign observations), generated from Shaw's debriefings based on his international business travels, primarily to Latin America, between roughly 1948 and 1956.Declassified CIA documents (including internal memos from the 1960s–1990s releases, ARRB-related files, and summaries in the National Archives JFK collection) confirm the total of eight reports submitted by the New Orleans office with Shaw as the source. Some files note that a few of these reports are "on hand" in Agency records, but full texts or complete lists with individual titles, exact dates, or verbatim contents have not been widely released or detailed in public sources.

From the most authoritative secondary summary—Max Holland's 2001 article "The Lie That Linked CIA to the Kennedy Assassination" (published in Studies in Intelligence and available on the CIA website)—the reports covered routine, non-sensitive economic and political topics of interest during the early Cold War:

Devaluation in Peru (likely currency/economic policy changes).

A proposed new highway in Nicaragua (infrastructure developments).

The desire of Western European countries to trade with the Soviet bloc (a key U.S. concern at the time regarding potential technology transfers or economic ties that could aid the Soviets).

These were graded by CIA evaluators as "of value" and "reliable", reflecting Shaw's credibility as a source. The information stemmed from his role as managing director of the International Trade Mart in New Orleans, which involved frequent travel and contacts in trade/promotion circles abroad.

No comprehensive list of all eight reports (with dates, full subjects, or dissemination details) appears in open sources. Some CIA memos (e.g., from 1967 reviews after Garrison's arrest of Shaw and later ARRB processing) reference the existence of the reports and note Shaw's former "Y" source number (145.1 at one point), but they do not enumerate specifics beyond the examples above. The relationship produced these reports over the ~8-year span, with around 33–36 total debriefing contacts/sessions, though only eight advanced to formal written reports.

This aligns with the DCS program's nature: overt, low-level intelligence collection from American citizens abroad, unrelated to clandestine operations or the JFK assassination (as confirmed in multiple Agency reviews, HSCA findings, and Richard Helms' 1979 testimony). Full originals, if still extant and released, would be in the JFK Assassination Records Collection at the National Archives, but they have not been highlighted with granular breakdowns in public scholarship or media.

31 web pages

DCS program overview[?]

Jim Garrison investigation[?]


ME: What was the date of Shaw's final report?


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GROK: The date of Clay Shaw's final report from his time as a voluntary contact with the CIA's Domestic Contact Service (DCS) is not explicitly detailed in publicly available declassified records or secondary sources with a precise day/month/year for the eighth (last) report itself.

However, reliable sources consistently tie the end of his entire DCS relationship—and thus the submission of his last report—to May 1956, specifically May 25, 1956:

Shaw was first contacted by the CIA's New Orleans DCS office in December 1948.

Between 1949 and May 25, 1956 (when he ceased to be a contact), he had a total of 36 debriefing contacts/sessions.
Eight formal reports (00-B format) were written and submitted based on his information over this ~8-year period.
The relationship lapsed after 1956, with no further contacts or reports noted.

This is corroborated in multiple key references:

A 1992 CIA memorandum (released under the JFK Assassination Records Collection Act) summarizes Shaw's file and explicitly states the contact period ended on May 25, 1956.

Patricia Lambert's book False Witness (1998) cites the 1992 CIA memo and notes the same end date for his status as a contact.
Max Holland's article "The Lie That Linked CIA to the Kennedy Assassination" (2001, published in Studies in Intelligence and on the CIA website) describes the relationship ending after 1956 without specifying why, but aligns with the above timeline.
Other declassified CIA files and summaries (e.g., from the National Archives JFK releases) confirm the 1948–1956 span, with the last contact on May 25, 1956.

The eight reports themselves covered routine economic/trade topics (e.g., devaluation in Peru, a Nicaraguan highway proposal, European-Soviet trade interest), with six described in summaries (from 1949–1952 trips and events) and two withheld/redacted for sensitivity per the Assassination Records Review Board (ARRB). No public source provides the exact submission date for the eighth/final report, but it necessarily occurred on or before May 25, 1956, as that marks the cutoff of all debriefings and his status as a source.

This information stems from primary CIA records reviewed post-1967 (after Jim Garrison's investigation) and during 1990s declassifications—no evidence suggests any reports after mid-1956.

31 web pages

Details of the eight reports[?]

Jim Garrison's investigation[?]