JFK Assassination Forum

Less than two bullets, were recovered.  There were more than one and a half bullets missing and it was not possible to say whether the pieces recovered were from the same or separate bullets. So parts of two bullets were missing.

There was CE399 which weighed 157.7 grains which is a few grains less than a full bullet. There was CE567, the nose portion of a copper jacket, which weighed 41.5 grains or about 1/4 of a bullet. There was CE569, the base portion of a copper jacket that weighed 20.6 grains, or about 1/8th of a bullet. (6 HSCA 369)

The Firearms Panel of the HSCA tried to see if CE567 and CE569 were from the same bullet but could not find any matching points :

Here is where common sense has to enter the picture. The FBI doesn't speculate on probabilities when forensic evidence is not 100% conclusive. That doesn't stop reasonable people from making such judgements. Do you really think the two large pieces found by the SS in the limo came from anything except the headshot. What else could have caused a full metal jacket bullet to break apart like that?

In general, the HSCA was skeptical and reasonable in their JFKA findings.

While the WC/FBI may have leaned on evidence, I think the HSCA mostly played it down the middle.

I accept the HSCA conclusions regarding the dent.

ME: Were any of the shells that were found in the "Sniper's Nest" on 11/22/63 dented? If so, does it present a problem for the official conclusion of the Warren Commission?

Thought for 23s

GROK: Yes, one of the three spent cartridge cases (shells) found in the "sniper's nest" on the sixth floor of the Texas School Book Depository had a dent. The three cases recovered by Dallas police on November 22, 1963, were designated as Warren Commission Exhibits (CE) 543, 544, and 545. CE 543 had a noticeable inward dent on the mouth (the open lip where the bullet had been seated).

educationforum.ipbhost.com +1

This dent has been documented in photographs taken at the scene (and later in Commission exhibits) and was examined by the FBI and, later, the House Select Committee on Assassinations (HSCA) Firearms Panel. The other two cases (CE 544 and CE 545) were undamaged in this way.

aarclibrary.org

No, this does not present a problem for the Warren Commission's official conclusion (that Lee Harvey Oswald fired three shots from a 6.5 mm Mannlicher-Carcano rifle in the sniper's nest, with the three cartridge cases ejected from that rifle). The Warren Commission itself relied on FBI ballistic analysis showing that all three cases had been fired in Oswald's rifle (CE 139), based on matching firing-pin impressions, extractor marks, and bolt-face marks.

archives.gov

The dent on CE 543 prompted criticism from some researchers, who argued it was so severe that the case could not have held a live bullet beforehand (implying it could not have been one of the three shots fired during the assassination, or that the case was planted or previously damaged).

jfk.boards.net +1

However, the HSCA Firearms Panel (a team of independent firearms experts) directly addressed this in 1977–1978.

They concluded:

The dent on the mouth of CE 543 was produced during ejection from the rifle (specifically, from rapid operation of the bolt/ejector mechanism), not before firing or from manufacturing/loading.

They duplicated an identical dent in test firings with Oswald’s rifle (one of four test cases showed a comparable dent when the bolt was worked quickly).
Microscopic comparison confirmed that all three cases (including the dented CE 543) were fired in the CE 139 rifle, with no evidence of multiple chamberings or prior firings.

aarclibrary.org +1

The panel explicitly rejected the idea that the dent would have prevented the case from being fired in the rifle (or any rifle).

ronaldjlilek.medium.com

The Warren Commission (1964) did not dwell on the dent as an issue—the FBI’s initial matching of the cases to the rifle was sufficient for their conclusion of three shots from the sniper’s nest. The later HSCA analysis reinforced this by resolving the dent question through direct experimentation. While some conspiracy-oriented analyses continue to dispute the replication or point to minor chain-of-custody details (e.g., CE 543 was turned over to the FBI a few days later than the others), the official forensic examinations found the dent fully consistent with the three-shot scenario.

documents3.theblackvault.com

In short, the dent is real and well-documented, but it has been explained as post-firing ejection damage and does not contradict (or undermine) the Warren Commission’s ballistics findings or lone-gunman conclusion.

AI Overview             

Yes, President Lyndon B. Johnson (LBJ) strongly persuaded Chief Justice Earl Warren to head the commission investigating President John F. Kennedy's assassination by arguing that a thorough, trusted report was necessary to prevent a potential nuclear war with the Soviet Union or Cuba.

LBJ used this fear to overcome Warren's initial reluctance to serve, arguing it was a matter of national security and patriotism.

Key Details of the Conversation:The Fear of War: Newly released White House phone transcripts and accounts from Warren show that LBJ was deeply concerned that wild conspiracy theories or rumors suggesting Soviet or Cuban involvement in the assassination could escalate into a conflict."40 Million Americans":

In a telephone conversation with Senator Richard B. Russell, who was also reluctant to serve, LBJ stated that such a war could "kill 40 million Americans in an hour".

The Pressure on Warren: According to a 1972 interview with Earl Warren, LBJ invited him to the White House and argued that "conditions around the world were so bad at the moment that he thought it might even get us into a war — a nuclear war".

LBJ mentioned to Warren that he had received estimates from Defense Secretary Robert McNamara suggesting 60 million Americans could be killed in a nuclear attack.

The Goal: LBJ wanted to avoid a "three-ring circus" of multiple investigations and ensure that the public believed Lee Harvey Oswald acted alone, thereby mitigating tensions with foreign powers.Earl Warren ultimately agreed to chair the commission, putting his concerns about the separation of powers aside to serve in what he saw as a moment of national crisis.

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Seems like the WC was more or less told to stay away from findings that would start a nuke war. Such finds would be that LHO had links to KGB (which he did) or G2.

In fact the US Ambassador to Mexico, Thomas Mann, and the State Department staffer in Mexico Charles Thomas, both thought there was a lot to the Cuba-LHO connection, and they were both shut down, and both lost their jobs in short order.

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Charles William Thomas was a U.S. State Department foreign service officer stationed in Mexico City who became a key, yet suppressed, witness regarding Lee Harvey Oswald's activities before the Kennedy assassination.

After his efforts to report evidence of a potential conspiracy were rebuffed, he was forced out of the State Department and later died by suicide in 1971, with his family and congressional investigators suspecting his, death was linked to his pursuit of the truth about the JFK assassination.

Here is what happened to Charles Thomas:

Evidence Regarding Oswald: In the mid-1960s, while serving at the U.S. Embassy in Mexico, Thomas investigated allegations from Elena Garro de Paz, a well-connected Mexican writer. She claimed to have seen Oswald at a party in Mexico City in late 1963 with Cuban diplomats and Mexican leftists who spoke of wanting Kennedy killed.

Attempted Whistleblowing: Thomas believed this intel indicated that Oswald—who visited the Soviet and Cuban embassies in Mexico City weeks before the assassination—had accomplices. He reported this to his superiors at the embassy, including the CIA station, but his efforts to open a new investigation were ignored or rebuffed.

"Selected Out" (Fired): In 1969, Thomas was forced out of the Foreign Service through an "up-or-out" policy. It was later determined that a glowing evaluation of his work in Mexico had been intentionally or mistakenly misfiled, leading to a false "clerical error" justification for his dismissal.Death by

Suicide: Despondent over the destruction of his 18-year career, Thomas committed suicide in his Washington home on April 12, 1971.

Posthumous Findings: Congressional investigators later found that Thomas had been forced out due to his persistent, unwelcome efforts to bring attention to the Mexico City intelligence, which conflicted with the "lone assassin" theory. His family received a formal apology signed by President Gerald Ford.

Ambassador Mann's career came to end also.

I have reasonable doubts that LHO's connections to KGB and G2 are benign.

The predicament for people like me is that there is no neutral ground to dwell on; one either qualifies as a LN or a CT, an objective, open minded approach is very hard to maintain. Yes, I am critical of the Report but also of many of the conspiracy books.

The 'overwhelming evidence' you say convinced you that Oswald assassinated the President hasn't convinced me. At least not completely. The unfortunate fact that the Dallas police allowed the suspect to get lynched prevented a trial, during which many of the questions I have could have been cleared up.--JVDW

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Verily.

Stand your ground. Ignore the contentious types who soon move to ridicule or make derogatory comments in JFKA discussions (LN'ers and CT'ers). 

You are entitled to your observations. Indeed, there is room for reasonable doubt regarding official and various CT accounts of the JFKA. And yes, some CT versions are real laughers, or inspired by ideology or ethnic biases. 

My read on the Z-film is that Gov. JBC was struck ~Z-295, which is less than one second from the strike on JFK at Z-313.


Connally: I was knocked over, just doubled over by the force of the bullet. It went in my back and came out my chest about 2 inches below and the left of my right nipple. The force of the bullet drove my body over almost double and when I looked, immediately I could see I was just drenched with blood. (1 HSCA 42)[/b][/i]

The above happens ~Z-295.

There is the additional curiosity of the entry wound on the dorsal (wristwatch) side on JBC's right wrist---from a bullet that first passed through JBC's chest? His surgeon, Dr. Shaw, thought that was inexplicable. Try touching the face of a wristwatch to your chest. I advise all readers herein to do this.

Then...we see JBC holding his Stetson hat at Z-272, in his right hand. The WC says he had been shot though the right wrist by a large tumbling slug (the Western Cartridge slug is 1 1/4 inches long)---but that JBC maintained his grip on the hat even after being shot through the wrist.

I have reasonable doubts about the above scenario. How can anyone not have doubts?

The WC version also contends, after being shot through the chest, JBC did a 180-degree-turn in his seat to look for JFK.

I have reasonable doubts about that too.

In short, there are grounds to suspect two gunsels in the JFKA, given that it appears one gunsel (likely LHO) was armed with the M-C.