JFK Assassination Forum

You just made my point for me. All you did was take potshots at the WC without offering a better explanation of the evidence, or even one as good, or even one at all. You dismiss the WC as politically motivated without ever refuting the substance of their report or even try to explain how their conclusions don't fit the body of evidence. The WC's conclusions were spot on. Decades of study and advances in technology that wasn't available to the WC have allowed us to fine tune what we know, but it still falls within the parameters the WC provided. The WC did not reach a conclusion about the missed shot, allowing for the miss to be either the first, second, or third shot that missed and even allowed for there to have only been two shots with no misses. Most LNs now believe it was the first shot that missed. The WC found that the single bullet struck between Z210 and Z225. There is a clear consensus that the single bullet struck at or about Z222 and that JFK and JBC both show reactions a few frames later. 3-D computer simulations now have shown us the geometry of the single bullet theory works perfectly. Failure Analysis established a cone from which the single bullet could have been fired and the sniper's nest was in the center of that cone. Dale Myers created a virtual 3-D simulation of Dealey Plaza and showed that JFK and JBC were perfectly lined up for the single bullet to work. All the conspiracy advocates have offered us are 2-D diagrams and that ridiculous courtroom demonstration in Oliver Stone's movie, both of which show JBC directly in front of JFK and facing straight ahead. What they proved is that if you start with a faulty premise, you will likely reach a faulty conclusion. Boy, did they ever.

I bet that if there was a church where you could worship the WC, you'd be there just about every day of the week. It's not rational nor reasonable to blindly accept what one source says; it's the appeal to authority fallacy!

You just made my point for me. All you did was take potshots at the WC without offering a better explanation of the evidence, or even one as good, or even one at all.

Now why would I offer a better explanation to a fairy tale story? Would you perhaps like me to write an alternative version of the report? Are you sane?

You hide behind the WC report as if it is a bible, but are unable to defend their findings and conclusions beyond what they have written in the report. And than, like an insecure little boy, you constantly pump yourself up with crap like claiming your evidence weighing skills are superior. You don't discuss the evidence, as is clearly demonstrated by the fact that you have completely ignored my detailed reply, yesterday, to you crappy "two bags are really one" nonsense! Instead you hide behind the WC, constantly attack the person you talk to and talk down to them. It is pathethic. Your "I've been dealing with with the conspiracy hobbyists on and off for 35 years" makes no impression. All it shows is that during all that time you haven't learned a single damned thing. Critical thinking at it's worst!

What they proved is that if you start with a faulty premise, you will likely reach a faulty conclusion. Boy, did they ever.

Hilarious. Did you forget the Katzenbach memo of 11/25/63?

"The public must be satisfied that Oswald was the assassin, that he did not have confederates who are still at large and that the evidence was such that he would have been convicted at trial."

This was written three days after the murder, when they had just begun to collect evidence. If there ever was a faulty premise to start an "investigation" it's this one!

All you keep on showing in just about every post is that you are incapable of independent logical thought. All you do is blindly follow whatever the leader says, because you are in a cult and don't even know it!

Now please explain to me why it should be worth some of my time to continue talking to you, because I can't figure out a reason why! Hell, I can't even figure out why you are here. You've said yourself that it would be a fool's errand to talk to people over and over again and expect a different result. Yet here you are spewing the same BS over and over again. What's that all about?

If you are here to discuss the evidence, then discuss the evidence and don't hide behind the WC every time you get stuck.

ME: If the JFK assassination was a conspiracy by people other than Oswald, how many people would reasonably be expected to have participated in the planning of the assassination, the "patsy-ing" of Oswald, the fabrication and planting of evidence, the shooting, the getting-away, the alteration of photos, film, and X-rays, and the ongoing coverup?

Thought for 17s

GROK: In a hypothetical scenario where the JFK assassination was a conspiracy orchestrated by people other than Lee Harvey Oswald (i.e., Oswald was an unwitting patsy, with all the physical, ballistic, and behavioral evidence against him fabricated or planted), a reasonable estimate for the total number of participants across all the phases you listed—planning, patsy-ing Oswald, fabrication/planting of evidence, the shooting, getaway, alteration of photos/film/X-rays, and the ongoing 60+ year cover-up—would be in the range of 30–100+ people.

en.wikipedia.org +1

This is not a precise figure from any official investigation (none has ever identified any such conspiracy or quantified participants). It is a pragmatic, operational estimate drawn from how real-world conspiracies function, the specialized access and expertise required for each phase, and the scale argued by both conspiracy proponents and lone-gunman analysts like Vincent Bugliosi (who tallied 42 groups/214 individuals accused across theories precisely to illustrate how any attempt to explain all claimed anomalies requires an impractically vast network).

en.wikipedia.org +1

Phase-by-Phase Breakdown of Why the Number Grows

Planning the assassination (5–15 people): High-level decision-makers (e.g., motive-driven figures from intelligence, organized crime, or political circles) plus a small core cell for logistics, motive alignment, and recruitment. Compartmentalization keeps most unaware of the full picture.

en.wikipedia.org

Patsy-ing Oswald and fabrication/planting of evidence (8–20 people): Requires insiders with prolonged access to Oswald’s life (Paine garage for the rifle, workplace for prints/bag/fibers) plus TSBD employees or visitors for the sniper’s nest setup, ballistic prep (pre-firing casings), and Tippit scene staging. Lab/forensic personnel to ensure clean matches without anomalies. Multiple people needed for timing, alibis, and avoiding detection.

archives.gov

The shooting and getaway (4–10 people): At least 1–2 additional shooters (to match claims of grassy knoll or multiple angles), spotters, radio coordinators for timing/escape, and support for exfiltration amid chaos in Dealey Plaza. Oswald’s independent movements (leaving TSBD, rooming house stop) must align perfectly without his knowledge.

archives.gov

Alteration of photos, film, and X-rays (10–25 people): This is a major escalator. Claims of Zapruder film alteration, autopsy tampering at Bethesda, mismatched X-rays, or forged backyard photos require military pathologists, radiologists, photographers, darkroom techs, chain-of-custody handlers, and supervisors on November 22–23, 1963. No single person could handle the medical, photographic, and evidentiary chain without detection.

en.wikipedia.org

Ongoing cover-up (dozens more, pushing total to 30–100+): Sustained silence over decades demands insiders in the FBI, CIA, Secret Service, Warren Commission staff, HSCA, ARRB, and media to withhold documents, manage witnesses, suppress anomalies, and handle re-investigations. This includes file tampering (Oswald’s Mexico City records, etc.), classification of millions of pages, and preventing leaks. Real small conspiracies (e.g., Watergate) unravel fast; a flawless multi-generational one requires redundancy, cutouts, and ongoing enforcement.

digitalcommons.law.uga.edu

Why This Range Is "Reasonable" (Yet Still Implausible)

Pro-conspiracy analyses (e.g., those echoing Jim Garrison, David Lifton, or Oliver Stone) argue exactly this: a small cell (say, 5–12) might handle Dealey Plaza but collapses when you add the institutional layers for autopsy alterations, ballistic ratification, and 60-year document control. Bugliosi and Gerald Posner counter that even 30–100 people makes the plot unsustainable—human error, ego, or one deathbed confession would have surfaced amid exhaustive probes (Warren Commission, HSCA, ARRB, declassifications). No credible evidence of such a network has ever emerged despite millions of pages released.

time.com +1

The House Select Committee on Assassinations (1979) floated a “probable conspiracy” (based on later-discredited acoustics) but explicitly could not identify participants or extent—suggesting it might have been limited but found zero proof of agencies or large groups.

archives.gov +1

Bottom line: In pure hypothetical terms, executing and concealing every element you listed at the level claimed by comprehensive conspiracy theories requires 30–100+ people for operational feasibility. That scale, however, is precisely why most historians and forensic experts view it as extraordinarily unlikely: such a group would almost certainly have left detectable traces, yet none have appeared in six decades of scrutiny. The physical and documentary record remains most consistent with Oswald acting alone.

8 web pages

JC-

Yes, you have provided a partial list of JFKA suspects.

You left off KGB, which is not that far-fetched; LHO visited the KGB in MC, and a Minsk KGB'er said he regarded LHO as an asset. LHO appears to have been in touch with G-2'ers in New Orleans, reports Gus Russo.

Some in the Education Forum favor Nazis (who left Germany after WWII) and William Niederhut has a major, but never requited, boner for Ed Lansdale.

For better or worse (for worse actually) French crackpot Laurent Guyenot is indisputably part of the JFKA news environment.

Guyenot recently received 220 comments on this rather lengthy piece in the The Unz Review, which holds that Israel/Mossad perped the JFKA, working through Angleton. Ron Unz often parrots that same view.

Like many JFKA narratives...the facts on the ground in Guyenot's JFKA narrative are non-existent. It is an accusation based on the (possible) motives of the accused. Debunking Guyenot is like fighting air---there is no there there.

But Guyenot has many admirers, including "moderator" William Neiderhut of the Education Forum.
 
Guyenot's feculent narrative below is not worth reading, or to even bother disputing, but I present here as I have an interest in the JFKA news environment, and how often becomes platform for dubious characters, whether doing the work of the KGB, Tehran, or, in earlier decades, the US government, or simple polemics or hustlers trying make a buck in JFKA-land.

So read Guyenot herein, and draw your own conclusions. (You can also use Guyenot's JFKA-Mossad poster for free, he informs the reader. Lucky you!)
 

Oh, goody. We have a crackpot who wants to blame Israel. As if we haven't seen this one before. We had one of those on McAdams' forum as well and it was obvious from his other comments he was anti-Semitic as I suspect this person is as well.

Over the years, the list of accused suspects keeps growing. Here is just a partial list of the accused, none of which is based on any credible evidence:

LBJ
J. Edgar Hoover
The FBI
The CIA
The Secret Service
The DPD
The Mafia
Pro-Castro Cubans
Ant-Castro Cubans
Texas oilmen
Jimmy Hoffa
The Justice Department
The Department of Defense
The Army
The Navy
Jackie Kennedy (seriously)
John Connally (seriously)

I know I could probably find a dozen more with a little research that I'm too lazy to bother with now.

All I can say is that must have been one hell of a planning session. Did they have to rent out the Cotton Bowl to have room for everybody?

For better or worse (for worse actually) French crackpot Laurent Guyenot is indisputably part of the JFKA news environment.

Guyenot recently received 220 comments on this rather lengthy piece in the The Unz Review, which holds that Israel/Mossad perped the JFKA, working through Angleton. Ron Unz often parrots that same view.

Like many JFKA narratives...the facts on the ground in Guyenot's JFKA narrative are non-existent. It is an accusation based on the (possible) motives of the accused. Debunking Guyenot is like fighting air---there is no there there.

But Guyenot has many admirers, including "moderator" William Neiderhut of the Education Forum.
 
Guyenot's feculent narrative below is not worth reading, or to even bother disputing, but I present here as I have an interest in the JFKA news environment, and how often the JFKA becomes a platform for dubious characters, whether doing the work of the KGB, Tehran, or, in earlier decades, the US government, or simple polemics or hustlers trying make a buck in JFKA-land.

So read Guyenot herein, and draw your own conclusions. (You can also use Guyenot's JFKA-Mossad poster for free, he informs the reader. Lucky you!)
 
Affix gas masks, and proceed:
 
---30---
 
 
What’s New on the Kennedy Assassination?
Focus on the Angleton-Israel connection
Laurent Guyénot • April 15, 2025
 • 2,200 Words • 220 Comments •

 
To my knowledge, no earth-shattering revelations or damning evidence has emerged from the 64,000 documents made public since March 18th on the assassination of John Kennedy. Nevertheless, the theory of Israeli guilt is reinforced by clarifications on James Jesus Angleton’s proximity to the Mossad. And the word is spreading on the social networks.

As shown here, the word Israel, which was blacked out from a previously declassified document, is now cleared on the new version. This indicates that, while the CIA had wanted to conceal the link between Angleton and Israel, the link is now so well known that the redaction of the word Israel has become ridiculously counterproductive. Similarly, on another document mentioning that Angleton “run several intelligence projects, many of them with [the Israeli Intelligence Service]”, the words in brackets have also been un-redacted, as pointed out on the Wikileaks X account, followed by 5.8 million subscribers.

A newly declassified page shown here cites CIA director (DCI) John McCone about the secret diplomatic crisis between the White House and the Jewish state over the latter’s determination to build nuclear bombs. Noting that the Israelis are “withholding information on the extent of its nuclear activities”, and “refuse to submit to international safeguards prescribed by the International Atomic Energy Agency”, McCone feared that the Israeli project would “trigger grave trouble in the Middle East”, and recommended to President Kennedy, as he had to his predecessor Eisenhower (as chairman of the U.S. Atomic Energy Commission), to impose economic sanctions against Israel. It must be remembered that McCone had been placed at the head of the CIA by Kennedy precisely because of his good knowledge of and opposition to the Israeli Dimona project.

This reminds us that incriminating “the CIA” in general terms for the Kennedy assassination makes little sense, since its director was certainly innocent. What needs to be done is to identify the CIA agents who may have been involved without their director’s knowledge. The name on which all suspicions focus since the 1970s is that of James Jesus Angleton, head of Counterintelligence. The CIA trail leads straight to the threshold of his office. However, since the publication in 2017 of his biography by Jefferson Morley (The Ghost), we know that his office led to the Mossad through a back door. Thus, through Angleton, the trail of the CIA leads straight to the Mossad, just like through Jack Ruby (Jacob Rubenstein), the trail of the “mafia” leads straight to the Irgun. Sam Parker summarizes well here the main acts of treason of Angleton in favor of Israel. (link not provided).

As stated in a recent Washington Post article on the tributes paid to Angleton in Israel after his death, “Angleton is reputed to have helped Israel obtain nuclear technical data”. This is an understatement: Angleton in fact covered up the theft and smuggling of materials intended for the Dimona nuclear reactor. Angleton was thus sabotaging Kennedy’s policy in a highly sensitive national and even global security matter.

Jefferson Morley, who has documented Angleton’s intimate connection to Mossad chiefs but refrained from making the connection with the Kennedy assassination—and, in the 1990s, had dismissed Michael Piper—now ventures to mention Israel’s possible involvement in the assassination in this interview with Tucker Carlson:

(no link)

At another occasion, Morley is heard explaining that Angleton had close relations with the Mossad and was hiding from the Church Committee (1975) his knowledge of how the CIA had helped Israel to steal nuclear materials from the U.S. He also explains that, according to his own testimony before the Church Committee, Angleton had recruited Israelis whose profile matches that of Rubin Efron (Efron was an Israeli spy, and a document declassified in 2023 revealed that he had been tasked with spying on Oswald’s mail for the CIA). But after emphasizing these important points, Morley summarizes what he can “say with confidence” (“my bottom line”): “The CIA’s counterintelligence is responsible for the Kennedy assassination.”

[Note from me: If Morley realy said that, he has lost his marbles. Perhaps CIA counter-intel, with lax standards, is a suspect in the JFKA...but "responsible"? Really, who knows who was on the ground in Dallas 11.22, and who they worked for? I have never seen anyone present any compelling evidence that any suspect other than LHO was in Dealey Plaza or the TSBD on 11.22]

Given that the head of counter-intelligence was also the exclusive liaison with Mossad, and that he had introduced Israeli spies into the CIA, including to spy on Oswald, and given that it was Morley who documented all of this, his conclusion sounds either like hypocrisy or like a ruse, an implicit way of saying that Israel is involved. I’d like to be optimist and belief the second hypothesis, but it is remarkable that Morley carefully avoids mention of Israel in his JFK Facts Substack blog. Likewise, when Karl Golovin asked him to comment on the question of Israel’s involvement in the Kennedy assassination, he replied: “I see no evidence of this.” Interestingly, Oliver Stone shows his awareness of the Dimona and the AIPAC issues, but turns to Jim DiEugenio as the expert. As I showed here, DiEugenio has done a great job on his website to show that LBJ reversed JFK’s foreign policy, especially in the Middle East, but refrains from pointing out that this makes Israel a major suspect.

This brief question and answer session followed a speech by Oliver Stone at the invitation of Anna Paulina Luna, appointed in February to head the House Oversight and Government Reform Committee, which is responsible for declassification. Anecdotally, Karl Golovin, sitting two rows behind Stone, kept my book in view of the camera during the conference.

Karl also joined a recent JFK Facts Zoom with Morley and DiEugenio, and it is pleasing to see both responding politely to his question. Morley dismisses as “hasbarah” the fact that the Jewish press has called LBJ “the first Jewish US president”, implying that this should not be taken seriously. Nevertheless, Morley allowing his “old friend” Karl Golovin to make his points, and answering him, is a welcome development. Jim DiEugenio’s willingness to engage with the issue is also positive, although, like Morley, what he is saying essentially is that he does not see the evidence linking the JFK assassination to Israel.

Whatever are the motivations of Jim DiEugenio and Jefferson Morley for dismissing the Israel theory, they must be commended for their work: DiEugenio for showing how LBJ reversed JFK’s foreign policy in favor of Israel, and Morley for showing that the main suspect within the CIA was more loyal to the Mossad than to his own hierarchy. As an example, Morley mentions in his book The Ghost, p. 171, that, from the mid-50s, “Angleton liked nothing better than to leave the cramped office politics of Washington for the austere frontier of the Holy Land. On his visits, Angleton stayed in Ramat Gan, on the suburban coastal plain north of Tel Aviv, the home to many Israeli intelligence officers and diplomats.”

“He used to come from time to time, to meet the head of Mossad, to get briefings,” recalls Efraim Halevy, who served as the Mossad’s liaison officer to the CIA station in Tel Aviv in the early 1960s. Halevy escorted Angleton on his rounds and recorded his meetings with Israeli officials. “He used to meet with David Ben-Gurion, whom he knew for many years,” Halevy recalled. “Ben-Gurion ultimately left office [in 1963] and Angleton went down to Sde Boker [Ben-Gurion’s home in the Negev] to meet him. I didn’t attend those meetings. Those were just the two of them. He had business to transact.”

What could Angleton and Ben-Gurion have been discussing secretly that day? Remember that Ben-Gurion resigned (officially “for personal reasons”) on the day (June 16, 1963) he was to receive Kennedy’s final letter threatening Israel with sanctions if Israel refused an inspection of Dimona. The most reasonable hypothesis is that, having failed to make Kennedy yield on that matter, Ben Gurion decided to deal with him in another method (the rise-and-kill-first method). He probably called on the Irgun and Lehi veterans, specialists in political assassinations and false-flag operations, in particular Menachem Begin and Yitzhak Shamir, who would later be prime ministers.

Angleton has no doubt become, thanks to Morley’s work, a key piece of the puzzle. And although Morley struggles to keep the two Angletons separate (the CIA Angleton and the Mossad Angleton), Angleton has now been exposed as a traitor to his own country for bringing Israeli spies into the CIA, including into the monitoring of Oswald. This is of equal significance to LBJ being exposed as a traitor to his own country by allowing Israel to try to sink the USS Liberty and get away with it.

As Karl Golovin reminds us, Angleton was deeply admirative of the Mossad:
 
[no link]

In conclusion, great progress has been made over the last decade in the investigation into the assassination of JFK. The Israeli connection, first suggested by Michael Collins Piper in the 1990s, is now being raised by influential figures such as the historian Martin Sandler, who in 2013 edited a collection of Kennedy’s letters, including his exchange with Ben-Gurion in June 1963. It is fair to clarify that in the post below, the beginning of his sentence has been cut off, so that he seems to affirm a conviction, when in fact he is only summarizing Piper’s theory, without explicitly validating it. Nevertheless, his taking seriously this thesis is significant.

Since Johnson has been openly recognized as the most pro-Israel US president since Truman, investigators who targeted Lyndon Johnson as the mastermind of the assassination can no longer ignore Israel’s involvement. An example with Roger Stone, author of The Man Who Killed Kennedy: The Case Against LBJ:

(No link)

With Israel’s genocide in Gaza, the cognitive inhibitions that prevented considering Israel’s guilt in the assassination of Kennedy are crumbling. Highly influential journalists such as Candace Owens and Tucker Carlson have broken the taboo. Jackson Hinkle, followed by almost 3 million subscribers on X, relays Muammar Gaddafi’s speech at the UN General Assembly, which was almost impossible to find on the internet even a year ago.

I am happy to have contributed to this development with my book and my film, which Ron Unz quotes favorably in his recent article “How Israel killed the Kennedys”:

One of the tiny handful of later writers willing to embrace and promote the Piper Hypothesis has been Laurent Guyénot, a leading French conspiracy-researcher. Although I might not necessarily endorse every particular element, I would strongly recommend his 2019 book The Unspoken Kennedy Truth as the best single exposition of the Israel/Mossad case for the JFK Assassination. This paperback summarizes all the important information and is short enough that it can easily be read in just a day or two. His 2018 article on the same subject covers the same information in much more abbreviated form: “Did Israel Kill the Kennedys?” (June 3, 2018). Guyénot also presented this same controversial material in the form of a 2022 documentary available on YouTube. Although perhaps too hagiographic, “Israel and the Assassinations of the Kennedy Brothers” likewise constitutes the best video introduction to that subject.

The film can be watched on the Youtube channel of the indispensable Sam Parker:
 [no link]

Feel free to use my poster recapping the essential arguments of the case against Israel in the Kennedy assassinations (plural intended).