JFK Assassination Forum

I see you didn’t read those 9 pages.  If you had you would realize how consistently similar the witnesses are and realize how improbable it is that you could get a distribution of witness evidence that like this;

where the vast majority were all wrong, yet the same witnesses provided this distribution of the number of shots and were right:

I don't care how consistent your chosen witnesses are with each other, they aren't consistent with what the Z-film shows which invalidates them. I will never understand your obsession with relying on witnesses when we have so much more reliable forms of evidence to tell us what happened.

I should have said z224 when we first see his hands and left shoulder. We can see his hands and body in z225 and we can see that the hands remain in the same position when we see that he is no longer up against the right side of the car and is obviously showing signs of reacting to his neck wound. He remains in that position when he brings his hands to his face. Here is the whole sequence:

Ok. We know you disagree with the HSCA photographic panel that JFK was showing a reaction to a severe external stimulus by z207 from a shot at z190. I am simply pointing out that the change begins at z193. Here is the entire sequence:
Not with JBC turned sharply right:

The sequence you posted shows that from Z189 until JFK goes behind the sign, the only thing he was doing was slowly and calmly lowering his right hand after waving to the few remaining spectators on that section of Elm St.

Finally, all I am saying is that one does not have to reject large bodies of witness evidence to reach the conclusion that all shots were fired from the SN.  The SBT is not only inconsistent with large bodies of evidence, it is not required to support the conclusion that Oswald fired all three shots. The rest of the evidence shows that.

It think it is hilarious that after telling us JBC only rotate his shoulders at most 30 degrees to the right you show a drawing that shows his shoulders turned about 75-80 degrees in order to avoid being hit by the bullet exiting JFK's throat. You also show him leaning way over to the side of the car. When you have to resort to such extreme exaggerations to make your theory work, doesn't that cause you to question the validity of your theory?

One should reject any large body of witnesses who give accounts that conflict with the Z-fillm.

I agree with the CTs on one point. Without the SBT, there had to be two shooters and a conspiracy. Fortunately we have the Z-film and other evidence that tells use positively the SBT is valid. I would go so far as to agree with Dale Myers when he said it isn't a single bullet theory, it is a single bullet fact.

So as mentioned earlier, Groden is passing off a clearly fake photo as real in Absolute Proof. How anybody here is defending that is beyond me, especially in light of the clear record of him stealing evidence and later profiting off of it.

You gave us 9 pages of witnesses recollections which is the most unreliable source of evidence we have and your arguments which are not evidence at all.

I see you didn’t read those 9 pages.  If you had you would realize how consistently similar the witnesses are and realize how improbable it is that you could get a distribution of witness evidence that like this;

where the vast majority were all wrong, yet the same witnesses provided this distribution of the number of shots and were right:

Are we still talking about JFK? He is not even visible at Z222. On what basis do you say he has moved left? Your imagination?

I should have said z224 when we first see his hands and left shoulder. We can see his hands and body in z225 and we can see that the hands remain in the same position when we see that he is no longer up against the right side of the car and is obviously showing signs of reacting to his neck wound. He remains in that position when he brings his hands to his face. Here is the whole sequence:

The more you try to save this turkey of a scenario you are presenting, the sillier you sound.https://assassinationresearch.com/zfilm/z200.jpg
Open your eyes!!! He most certainly is calmly waving to the spectators on Elm as we can see the white cuff of his right hand up in the air and his head is turned toward the spectators. I could have picked just above any from Z193-205 that shows the same thing.

Ok. We know you disagree with the HSCA photographic panel that JFK was showing a reaction to a severe external stimulus by z207 from a shot at z190. I am simply pointing out that the change begins at z193. Here is the entire sequence:

4-5 inches from his spine would still result in a wound to his back. The fact the entry wound was near his right armpit indicates the bullet passed farther to the right than your silly figuring tells you.

Not with JBC turned sharply right:


Finally, all I am saying is that one does not have to reject large bodies of witness evidence to reach the conclusion that all shots were fired from the SN.  The SBT is not only inconsistent with large bodies of evidence, it is not required to support the conclusion that Oswald fired all three shots. The rest of the evidence shows that.

That's an excellent view of the critical frames. When JFK reappears at Z225, he has been shot but his right arm was still moving downward at Z225, a motion he began shortly before he went behind the sign. We know that by comparing the position of his right arm to Z224. It is lower at Z225. It wasn't until Z226 that JFK's arm starts upward, the same frame JBC's arm started upward.

DVP has argued that at Z225 JFK and JBC both show other signs of being struck and he might be right about that. He bases that on JFK's facial expression at Z225. Given the low resolution of the Z-film and we can't compare JFK's facial expression to Z224, I don't think that is conclusive. There is
no question that JBC's right shoulder dips dramatically at Z225 but I simply can't say whether that is a reflexive response or it is being moved by the force of the bullet. Either seems possible to me.

Well, I gave you 9 pages of the evidence that the last two shots were closer together than the first two. I am not going to do that every time I mention it. I am just going to refer to the body of evidence bearing this out. Do you not agree that this large body of evidence set out in those 9 pages is evidence of the 1......2.
..3 shot pattern? Ditto for the 20+ witnesses that said JFN reacted to the first shot and the other 7 bodies of evidence.

You gave us 9 pages of witnesses recollections which is the most unreliable source of evidence we have and your arguments which are not evidence at all.

What is the normal reaction to being shot through the neck?

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I don't know if there is such a thing as a "normal reaction" but if there is, it probably looks a lot like what JFK did starting at Z226.

The change starts at z193-194. By z222 he has moved left and his hands are clenched in front of him.

Are we still talking about JFK? He is not even visible at Z222. On what basis do you say he has moved left? Your imagination?

It may be that he did not immediately know that he had been shot through the neck. It may be that he did not realize how serious things were until he tried to take a breath and realized he couldn't breathe. A person takes a breath about every 4 seconds so maybe his dramatic reaction at z226 is when he took that next breath. (He was also wearing a complete upper body corset so when he moves his entire torso moves).

The more you try to save this turkey of a scenario you are presenting, the sillier you sound.

He is not waving after z193. The change begins after z193.

https://assassinationresearch.com/zfilm/z200.jpg
Open your eyes!!! He most certainly is calmly waving to the spectators on Elm as we can see the white cuff of his right hand up in the air and his head is turned toward the spectators. I could have picked just above any from Z193-205 that shows the same thing. JFK begins to go behind the sign at Z205 and he is blocked from our view for just about one second. Just before he goes behind the sign he had started to lower his right hand. His right hand is still part way up when it becomes visible at Z224 and when we compare that frame to Z225, his arm is still being lowered at that point but is still part way up. It isn't until Z226 that his arms and JBC's right arm start moving rapidly upward in reaction to the single bullet having passed through both of them a few frames earlier. It's impossible to pinpoint the precise moment that single bullet struck but it would have been slightly before JBC's jacket bulged out at Z224.

 

He turns forward, brings his hand down and eventually his arm. By z222 both hands are up in front of him and are cupped or clenched. That is about 1.5 seconds and we really don't know when those hands took that position because he was behind the sign before then..

Pure BS. JFK is not even visible at Z222. His right hand becomes visible at Z224 and when we compare that to Z225 when his face reappears. his hand was still moving downward at Z225. it was at frame Z226 that his arms start to move dramatically upward.

So his previous actions could not be a reaction to the shot through his neck?

So says Dr. Andrew Mason.

They asked more than 50 witnesses

Oh, brother. More cherry picked witnesses. I'll gladly take the Z-film over all 50 of those witnesses. I would say the same if it was 500 or 5000.

what happened and the thrust of what they said happened is similar. But you do have to read what they said.

No I don't because we have the Z-film and that tells me exactly what happened and it trumps the recollections of every witness in DP.

Maybe because his back/shoulders were turned sharply right. Maybe he was not as far left as you suggest. Itek said 4-8 inches. If he was 4 inches inside and leaning forward a bit, it could have passed 4-5 inches or so from his spine.

4-5 inches from his spine would still result in a wound to his back. The fact the entry wound was near his right armpit indicates the bullet passed farther to the right than your silly figuring tells you.