JFK Assassination Forum

It's hard to tell with the circles covering JFK but I'm estimating you have JFK's head to far inside. With his side against the side of the limo, I estimate the centerline of his head would only be about 9 inches inside that. I base that on my on body which is broader than JFK. I outweigh him by about 70 lbs. My ballpark estimate is the centerline of JFK's head would be at most 2 ft. from the outside edge of the limo.

I think I have that same model car although mine is not stamped Luckydiecast. I can't quite make out what the script is identifying the manufacturer but it is stamped Made in China. I've had mine about 10 years. My experience with model trains tells me manufacturers will often sell or duplicate the molds among themselves and it is not unusual to see that same item produced by two or more companies. It's very easy to change the embossed label. Mine indicates it was manufactured under license number 24048 if that means anything. The jump seats on mine fold down and then can be pushed forward completely out of the way.

I measured it (centerline of the model to edge of outside of the limo) at 3/4’ from the outside edge of the limo. That scales to be 18”.


I had previously ground away part of the model to simulate having the side of his torso against the inside edge of the side of the limo. Sorry about the sideways orientation. It’s apparently the image hosting site’s issue.




Here it is sitting in the limo.

That's a fair perspective - certainly more balanced than John's. But my God, there are at least 100 news stories every year involving multiple murders that are factually more ghastly than the JFKA. I read them, factor them into my perspective on human nature and what humans are capable of, and move on. I do think you grossly overstate the case in terms of Oswald letting a genie out of the bottle. There were surprisingly ghastly crimes long before Oswald, and the 1970's and 1980's looked nothing like today in terms of what you're describing. I think the near-hell we're living in today is due to factors much more recent than the JFKA. John's suggestion was that there is something illegitimate about anyone who is interested in the JFKA for any reason other than "JFK angst" and visceral hatred of Oswald. As stated, I'm very interested in Oswald the man and can have empathy for him without minimizing his actions. I can also be interested in the JFKA simply as a whodunnit and opportunity to exercise my brain, all of which I believe to be entirely legitimate. I actually think that the attitudes John expresses are an impediment to thinking critically about the case.

The critical thinking has been done countless times over the years to expose the fallacies of all CT objections to the conclusions of the WC. The questions the LNs pose to the CTs are questions they should have asked themselves but rarely if ever do.

OK, I'm bored, so let's examine this. It's not a matter of what I think Oswald "should" have done. It's a matter of what it seems to me that someone of Oswald's intelligence who was thinking rationally would have done;

Either way you are guessing and your guesses do not trump real evidence that indicates Oswald was the assassin.

since that isn't what he did, I wonder why he did what he did (or if he actually did it) and do not immediately leap to the typical LN responses of "it's irrelevant" 

Your guesses are irrelevant.

(well, no it's not) or "Oswald was a madman" (well, no, he wasn't). Yes, he made an unusual trip to Irving the evening before the JFKA - highly suspicious.

On the other hand, both Ruth and Marina accepted that he was there to try to make peace with Marina, and he made great efforts to do exactly that. The extent of those efforts and his reactions that Marina described are "just a bit" hard to explain if he was really there to get his rifle and shoot JFKA.

Hard for you. Not hard for people who think real evidence outweighs guesses.

Neither Ruth nor Marina saw anything like the mysterious paper bag or any conduct by Oswald suggesting he was taking the rifle out of the blanket and wrapping it in the bag.

Since you are into guessing, do you guess he would have allowed them to see what he was up to?

Indeed, as Martin has pointed out, there is no solid evidence that the rifle was even in the garage on 11-21.

Now it's my turn to ask the same question you asked in another thread. What evidence would you expect there to be.

No one saw him making the bag in the TSBD,

Which in no way precludes him from having made the bag. Same question as before. Do you think he would have wanted anyone to see what he was doing?

which would have been an odd choice anyway, and Frazier neither saw nor heard any evidence of it on the ride to Irving.

Would he have had any reason to show Frazier his bag?

Then, of course, we have Frazier's and Randle's stubborn insistence that the bag they saw was too short

Oh goody. More guesses by witnesses. Or did either Frazier or Randle actually measure the bag. 

It may well be that the LN version of events is 100% correct,

It is.

but to suggest it's free of all doubt goes too far.

Not really.

Moreover, we encounter this at virtually every stage of the JFKA. For some reason, we weren't blessed with a cut-and-dried case that Perry Mason could've wrapped up in an hour.

At every stage of the JFKA, a CT will dream up some cockamamie excuse to dismiss a piece of rock solid evidence of Oswald's guilt. I've seen this movie countless times over the past 35 years. A CT is presented with compelling evidence of Oswald's guilt and the CT responds with an excuse to disregard that evidence. They do it time and tine again. They never respond with any evidence of their own nor do they even attempt to put together an alternative scenario that takes into account all the available evidence. One would think that given the advantage of 62 years, some CT somewhere would have been able to construct a plausible evidence based scenario that has someone other than Oswald involved in the crime but that has never happened and I have no reason to believe it ever will.

I think I determined the 3’ miss distance based on my 3D computer model. I decided to try another approach using my 1/24th scale model of the limo. If we scale the 2’ and 3’ distances to 1/24th scale, they are 1” and 1.5” respectively. I cut 2” and 3” diameter targets and centered them on JFK’s head. The angles are reasonably close to the angles at Z133. Here are some resulting images:


The first image shows the two targets with a clear ruler laid on top of them in order to show their respective diameters.




The second image shows the 2” target centered on JFK’s head. This scales to be a 4’ diameter target.





The third image shows the 3” target centered on JFK’s head. This scales to be a 6’ diameter target.




As can be seen above, the 3” diameter target barely covers the limo and only at a small section of its circumference.

It's hard to tell with the circles covering JFK but I'm estimating you have JFK's head to far inside. With his side against the side of the limo, I estimate the centerline of his head would only be about 9 inches inside that. I base that on my on body which is broader than JFK. I outweigh him by about 70 lbs. My ballpark estimate is the centerline of JFK's head would be at most 2 ft. from the outside edge of the limo.

I think I have that same model car although mine is not stamped Luckydiecast. I can't quite make out what the script is identifying the manufacturer but it is stamped Made in China. I've had mine about 10 years. My experience with model trains tells me manufacturers will often sell or duplicate the molds among themselves and it is not unusual to see that same item produced by two or more companies. It's very easy to change the embossed label. Mine indicates it was manufactured under license number 24048 if that means anything. The jump seats on mine fold down and then can be pushed forward completely out of the way.

We keep hearing that "all the evidence" points to Oswald and that CTers and those like me who are at least open-minded never present any "evidence" for their positions.

Realistically, what evidence would be EXPECTED?

I've indicated openness to a Mafia conspiracy. Trafficante's lawyer said he confessed. An inmate who was an FBI informant said Marcello confessed. Maybe both are bogus, maybe not. There are other "hints and allegations" (as the saying goes) that suggest Mafia involvement. (Forget Ruby - the Mafia wouldn't have cared if Oswald lived or died, and they sure as hell wouldn't have recruited a red-flag loose cannon like Ruby.)

Precisely what evidence would we EXPECT if the JFKA were a Mafia hit? (You can, of course, ask this about any conspiracy theory.)

In terms of the mechanics of it, the JFKA would have been just another Mafia hit. No big deal, business as usual. The actual gunman, a pro, would have been in and out of the Dal-Tex building (or wherever) as seamlessly as Joe the accountant. If Oswald were a Mafia patsy - a role for which he would have been almost too good to be true - then OF COURSE the evidence would point to him to the maximum extent possible.

So, barring some absolutely bombshell piece of evidence that comes to light, we are limited to: (1) the Trafficante and Marcello hearsay and other evidence that is largely hearsay or completely apocryphal (e.g., the mysterious Robert E. Morgan who ostensibly found a shell while working on the roof of the County Records building); (2) the kinds of questions that I and others have raised about Oswald that just don't seem to fit the LN narrative or the profile of a Presidential assassin; and (3) the questions raised by the Dealey Plaza evidence itself.

In a sane conspiracy (i.e., a Mafia conspiracy) with Oswald as a patsy, there would have been one and only one pro in or on a building to the rear of the limousine who would be firing on a trajectory plausibly attributable to Oswald, using either ammunition that would completely fragment or a sabot with a 6.5 bullet. The LN narrative posits a last-resort theory called the SBT ... and not just that, but an SBT with a Magic Bullet that survived almost pristinely intact ... and not just that, but a Magic Bullet that left holes in JFK's clothing and body that force the claim that "his clothes must have been bunched" ... and not only that, but a victim, JBC, who pretty much insisted the SBT was incorrect ... and not only that, but a Magic Bullet whose provenance is uncertain at best ... and not only that, but a Magic Bullet that Landis claimed he found on the back seat of the limo! And yet this is the  evidence, we are told, that leaves no room for doubt and seals Oswald's fate as the Lone Nut.

Evangelical Christians do the same thing with the Resurrection: they insist all the evidence shows it occurred as a real-world event you could have videotaped if you'd been there. Well, of course they say this; it's the linchpin of the entire faith. But when you approach it in the same way that I suggest the LN narrative should be approached, you realize it is entirely an article of faith and that the evidence and reasonable inferences are nowhere near as solid as the True Believers claim. Can anyone produce evidence it didn't happen, the True Believers ask? Barring a definitive discovery of the bones of Jesus, no - but we can critically examine what evidence there is, draw reasonable inferences, and decide which understanding of the event seems most plausible.

Someone tell me: If the JFKA were a tight, compartmentalized Mafia hit with Oswald as a patsy, what affirmative evidence would you expect there to be? It really seems to me that the demand for affirmative evidence is largely a red herring.

(What there is NOT, I will admit - at least so far - is anything that would plausibly tie Oswald to anyone connected to the Mafia. This is the elephant in the room with the Mafia theory. Dutz Murret - as I believe John Orr suggests - is possible but seems far-fetched to me. To be an effective patsy, Oswald would have had to believe he was part of a pro-Castro assassination and been completely oblivious to Mafia involvement.)