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31
The JFK Assassination - Discussion & Debate / Re: The First Shot
« Last post by Andrew Mason on Today at 01:32:40 AM »
Your problem is you don't have a clue as to how to weigh evidence.
Let’s see. On the left side of the scale we put 20 witnesses (there are at least four more including Zapruder, Clint Hill, Bobby Hargis, and Linda Willis) with different vantage points all saying JFK reacted to the first shot. On the right side we put Glen Bennett (his second statement, not his notes) and
your feelings about what you think you are seeing in the zfilm. Hmm. Which way would the scale tilt?

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Your continued blind faith in eyewitness accounts demonstrates that. You think because a witness tells you something, it becomes an established fact.
Drawing conclusions from 20 witnesses all saying the same thing is not blind faith.  Blind faith is your belief that your interpretation of the silent zfilm is more likely correct than 20 independent recollections.  Can you point to a single event in history where 20 independent reports of a simple observable fact got it wrong and zero reported it correctly?

By the way, if you think that an independent witness cannot corroborate another witness, you are wrong. You should also review your high school lessons on probability and statistics.
32
Like everyone else, I have puzzled over what happened to the three audible shots of 11/22. There may have been inaudible shots (simultaneous shots, or shots from a rifle with a silencer). Some witnesses heard four shots, but the most common account is "bang....bang-bang."

It does seem unlikely the TSBD6 sniper would miss the entire limo, and moreover the shot that hit a concrete curb hard enough to cause a fragment to chip off and cut James Tague's face is usually left unexplained.

The SBT-LNT theories are only theories, after all.

My best guess is first audible shot hit JFK, the second hit JBC, and the third JFK, as recounted by the Connallys, and which, in my layman's view, is seen in the Z-film.

I understand other JFKA buffs have different views.

Caveat emptor, and draw your own conclusions.
 
33
So you're still trying to lie your way out of admitting your blunder.

As you know, I've already pointed out to you that you're only citing McDonnel's reading of the enhanced x-rays, which don't show some of the damage as clearly, and are ignoring the fact that he described a larger area of missing frontal bone in his reading of the unenhanced x-rays. I've also pointed out to you that Angel had the advantage of using the photos of the skull fragments, whereas McDonnel was not shown those photos and was only asked to read the x-rays.

But of course you just keep ignoring these facts.

Oh, so these are facts. It couldn't be your misunderstanding of what these professionals had to say. You cite Angel saying there was damage to the frontal bone near JFK's hairline. Which hairline. The one above his forehead or the one around his temples. Because the leaked photos show evidence of the latter. I know of no photos showing damage to the hairline above his forehead. My guess is you read "hairline" and "frontal bone" and you assumed  they were talking about his forehead but maybe there is another explanation for your confusion. 
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You're lying again. The FPP produced diagrams showing no missing bone from the frontal bone, and they absurdly placed the triangular fragment in the parietal bone, even though they knew better from their own radiology and forensic consultants. In fact, the FPP did not place any of the four skull fragments in the frontal bone.

If you are unable to provide a quote to support your assertion, I can only conclude that you overspoke when you said the FPP doggedly denied there was missing frontal bone.

No, this is just further proof of your lack of candor and of your poor knowledge of the medical evidence. As I've mentioned, the FPP avoided this issue like the plague in the text of their report. They carefully avoided saying anything about the amount of missing frontal bone in their report.

Oh, so after telling us the FPP doggedly denied there was missing frontal bone, you're now telling us "the FPP avoided this issue like the plague in the text of their report.". Can't you even keep your story straight?
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But, again, they produced diagrams that showed no bone missing from the frontal bone, diagrams that put all four of the skull fragments in other parts of the skull, not one in the frontal bone (see, for example, HSCA JFK Exhibit F-66).

And your response is to argue (with a straight face?) that this doesn't constitute denying there was missing frontal bone!

Yeah, never mind that even the least problematic x-ray reading from the FPP's expert consultants said a sizable piece of bone was missing from the rear of the frontal bone! And never mind that the FPP's expert consultant in skull-fragment identification and skull reconstruction said the triangular fragment was "clearly frontal bone" and produced diagrams showing that the missing frontal bone extended nearly to the hairline!

This is fascinating. A few posts ago you were telling us Dr. Angel said the missing frontal bone was not limited to the posterior of the bone. Now you have changed course again and going with Dr. McDonnel's conclusions. Why can't you come up with one story and stick to it? [quorw]

"Yeah, exactly. The FPP wasn't denying anything when they produced wound diagrams that showed no missing frontal bone, that didn't place any of the four skull fragments in the frontal bone, and that ignored what McDonnel and Angel told them," to paraphrase your silly dodge.

Let's approach your discrediting evasion by asking you a simple question regarding your blundering statement in your OP for this thread. You said,

The autopsy report stated the blowout in JFK's skull was "chiefly the parietal bone but extending somewhat into the temporal and occipital regions." The FPP also identified a piece missing from the posterior of the frontal bone.[/quote]

I was pointing out that the FPP included Dr. McDonnel's report in their findings. You have claimed that the FPP "doggedly denied"  there was missing frontal bone, an assertion you can't support with an actual quote.
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Okay, which piece of skull did they identify as missing from the rear part of the frontal bone? Which one of the four skull fragments was it?

And keep in mind that the FPP claimed that those four fragments completed the large head wound and left "no additional pieces of bone missing" (HSCA RN 180-10120-10023, p. 2), so you have no wiggle room.

McDonnel said the missing piece of frontal bone was from the posterior. He wasn't any more specific than that.

I'm curious. Why did you earlier cite McDonnel's report to support your position and now are disputing his conclusions.
34


So once again you're floating this phony argument and ignoring the fact that these are not just my assertions but the assertions of many medical experts, including the FPP, the autopsy doctors, and the ARRB's forensic experts.

It's not just little ole me saying that the skull x-rays show no trace of the low fragment trail described in the autopsy report (Humes, the entire FPP, the Clark Panel, the RC medical panel, and the ARRB's forensic experts, etc., etc.).

It's not just little ole me saying the brain photos, if authentic, categorically refute the EOP site (the FPP, Mantik, Aguilar, Chesser, Henkelmann, etc.).

It's not just little ole me saying that the skull x-rays show about 2/3 of the right brain missing (Hodges, Humes, Mantik, Chesser, Aguilar, Lattimer, etc.) but that the autopsy brain photos show only "less than 1-2 ounces" of missing brain tissue (Baden, Bugliosi, etc.).

You don't need a medical degree to understand that either the EOP site is valid or the brain photos are fraudulent, that either the skull x-rays are fraudulent or the brain photos are fraudulent, that it's wildly implausible to theorize that three autopsy pathologists and the radiologist "missed" the high fragment trail or mistook it for a fragment trail 5 inches lower and in a different part of the skull, that it's preposterous to suggest that three autopsy pathologists and the autopsy photographer mistook an entry wound in the parietal bone, 1 cm above the lambda, for a wound 1 cm above the EOP, nearly 4 inches below the rear edge of the parietal bone, when they had the EOP and lambda as reference points, when they reflected the scalp, and when they examined both sides of the wound in the skull after they reflected the scalp.

You seem to jump back and forth from criticizing the FPP to embracing their findings. Which is it?

There is one thing they all agree on and which you reject. JFK was shot twice from behind and there is no medical evidence of him being shot from any other direction.  But I suppose we should dismiss what all these qualified people have to say and accept your amateurish analysis of the medical evidence.
35
Sure, we can hypothesize HOW Oswald might have missed, but the most parsimonious, evidence-based, Occam-friendly explanation is "He didn't." I have just a bit of conceptual difficulty with a shot that misses everything followed by two longer shots that are pretty much right on the money.

You probably have not done much shooting if you can't recognize how much more difficult the early first shot was compared to the to later an longer shots. At 88 yards or less, distance is hardly a factor at all. He was firing almost dead down range with little relative movement of the target to the line of fire. That was not true of the first shot which also required shooting from an awkward stance with nothing to brace the rifle with the window sash likely partially obscuring his view.

I've always wished somebody would do a reenactment of that first shot just to see what challenges it would have presented. I'm not asking for a duplication which is impossible. Just a re-enactment to highlight the difficulties.
36
Sure, we can hypothesize HOW Oswald might have missed, but the most parsimonious, evidence-based, Occam-friendly explanation is "He didn't." I have just a bit of conceptual difficulty with a shot that misses everything followed by two longer shots that are pretty much right on the money.

Dear FPR,

Oswald's first shot (at "Z-124") was the most difficult of the three.

-- Tom
37
Sure, we can hypothesize HOW Oswald might have missed, but the most parsimonious, evidence-based, Occam-friendly explanation is "He didn't." I have just a bit of conceptual difficulty with a shot that misses everything followed by two longer shots that are pretty much right on the money.
38
I dare you folks to step out of your Serious JFKA Researcher modes and admit there is some weird shit that goes on in this world. I don't consider myself "mystical" at all, but I've had weird incidents at the rate of 2-4 per year to the point that I started keeping a log or diary some 25 years ago. Here are two that were entirely objective - i.e., you would've experienced the same things if you'd been there.

1. Complex incidents of synchronicity - "meaningful coincidence" or what Jung called an "acausal connecting principle" - absolutely fascinate me. In 2007, I was a widower awaiting the arrival of my fiance from Belarus. I had ordered from art.com some eight pieces of art to freshen up the house. I was online looking at them. I asked my paralegal across the hall, named Vicki, if she'd ever seen the site. Looking over my shoulder, she asked "Do they have anything by Gustav Klimt?" I brought up what they had, and Vicki said "Oh, my God, 'The Kiss' - that's my favorite painting!" OK, whatever. A week later, I was awaiting the arrival of the final piece - a droll Victorian print of Mama Cat teaching her studious-looking children how to catch mice. It arrived. I looked at the shipping invoice - yep, here it was. I opened the box and pulled out "The Kiss" by Gustav Klimt. What??? I just about fainted. I got back online to make sure I hadn't gone into some sort of trance and ordered "The Kiss." Nope. I contacted art.com. "Eh, mistakes sometimes happen at the warehouse. Send it back." I asked Vicki if she wanted it, but $300 was too much for her. Fast-forward some five years. I had retired (working from home) and Vicki had died. Some good friends from out of town were visiting to go to lunch. My wife was still getting ready. We were standing right in front of the print of Mama Cat, so I told them my "The Kiss" story. We drove to the restaurant at an historic hotel down the road. They have a gift shop and a little book nook where they sell books on local history and whatnot. While the others were in the gift shop, I stuck my head in the book nook. There was a little table with exactly one book sitting upright on it: a metallic gold dustjacket with "GUSTAV KLIMT" in big red letters. I have no idea what a book on Klimt would have been doing there. I just about fainted again and of course bought it. Weird.

2. My late wife was in a morphine-induced coma in a hospice the last 30 days. I worked all morning, then rode my motorcycle to the hospice in the afternoon. She could have died at any time, but nothing suggested her death was imminent. I arrived back home and was startled by what I found. Sitting upright on the carpet was a little teddy bear she had received at a cancer survivor's retreat. It had been sitting on top of her jewelry box on a 5-foot bookshelf in the corner of our bedroom where I had arranged a little "shrine" to her and her late parents. I tried gently toppling Mr. Teddy about 50 times but could never get him to land upright or where he was found. Odd, I thought. An hour later, I was in the kitchen making dinner. I put a muffin in the little toaster oven I used every morning and evening. As I was making a salad at the counter, there was a huge POP! I turned to the cat on my right and said "What the hell was that?" I then turned to my left and saw that the toaster oven was little glowing orange and the muffin was a piece of charcoal, as though 50,000 watts had shot through it. I carefully unplugged it. The phone almost immediately rang - it was, of course, the hospice telling me my wife had died soon after I left. The next morning, the toaster oven was fine. But wait, there's more ...

A few weeks later, I was puttering in the bedroom when the stereo simply started playing a CD all by itself. Having had some prior incidents with electrical devices (as did my wife), I jokingly said into the air "Bev, was that you?" I turned off the stereo and went to get the clothes out of the dryer. I brought them into the bedroom and the stereo immediately started playing again. "Do that again and I'll be impressed." I then went grocery shopping at Safeway, so it was more than an hour later before I entered the bedroom again. Yep. "OK, I'm impressed." I shared this incident (one of many, many such incidents that have been reported) with arch-skeptic Michael Shermer, who had shared a similar incident in the pages of Scientific American, https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/anomalous-events-that-can-shake-one-s-skepticism-to-the-core/. Shermer caught so much flak from his arch-skeptic fans that he was forced to distance himself from what he had written. To me, he merely talked about the need to keep "an open mind." Uh-huh.

I could recount at least 30 or more incidents of weirdness the equal of these. When someone says to me "Nothing like that has ever happened to me" my response (to myself) is always "Bullshit - you are either willfully blind or you are sleepwalking through life." One of my personal axioms is that if you share experiences like the above with any group of five relatives, friends or colleagues, at least two of them will share experiences so jaw-dropping that they make yours sound hardly worth relating.
39
Well there is  no record of Oswald having practiced shooting at a 12-15mph target at ranges of 60-90 yds from a firing position 72 ft in height.

And since the rifle was stored in the Paines garage while Oswald lived at the boarding house then he probably had not fired the rifle for several months.

And then his plan was hastily conceived and he was probably in high state of anxiety just before he started shooting. So he could have inadvertently squeezed the trigger as he leaned over to position the rifle on the stacked box firing platform. 

Who knows if the scope was even zeroed correctly for that 100 yds range and if the reticle had drifted off it’s zero.

Could have been some minor trigger malfunction because Oswald for 15 minutes while on the 6th floor could not have prepped by operating bolt and trigger because of Bonnie Ray Williams on the floor until about 12:23. And then from
12:23-12:30 Norman was on the 5th floor directly beneath the SN and he did not hear  any sound of bolt or trigger operation preceding the shooting.
40
We have all viewed the images of the "bucket" sitting on the ground alongside the JFK Limo at Parkland Hospital. And we have been told that the bucket came out of the JFK Limo trunk. That this out-of-place bucket held the tool(s) and nuts-n-bolts that were required to install the JFK Limo Top. This "tale" is simply another JFK Assassination Urban Legend. It's been repeated over-n-over until it has been accepted as being fact. It is Not Fact. It is Fiction. That Bucket did Not come out of the trunk of the JFK Limo. It did Not hold tool(s) or nuts-n-bolts. That bucket came out of Parkland Hospital. It is a "Scrub Bucket". It was used to "Scrub Down" the backseat area of the JFK Limo. This "Scrub Down" made the backseat area of the JFK Limo an ALTERED CRIME SCENE. ALL FBI Photos of the JFK Limo backseat area are photos of an Altered Crime Scene.
If this bucket originally came out of the JFK Limo Trunk, it should have gone back into the JFK Limo Trunk after the JFK Limo Top was installed. This "Scrub Bucket" did NOT go back into the JFK Limo Trunk after that Top was completely installed.
I have found B/W film footage showing the JFK Limo Top having been completely installed, and the JFK Limo Trunk CLOSED. All work on the Top is done. This film footage also shows a suited man walking alongside the JFK Limo. He is carrying the "Scrub Bucket" by its' handle toward/into Parkland Hospital. He is walking AWAY from the JFK Limo Trunk with this "Scrub Bucket" in hand. This "Scrub Bucket" originated from Parkland Hospital, and this suited man is now returning it to whence it came.

4:32 - 4:36  -  Shows the JFK Limo, the dark suited man, the "Scrub Bucket" being carried toward/into Parkland Hospital
                                                         


               

                     
                                         
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