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31
JFK Assassination Plus General Discussion And Debate / Re: JFK's raised left arm identified at Bethesda
« Last post by John Corbett on Yesterday at 05:26:44 PM »
Quote from: Zeon Mason on Yesterday at 04:42:24 PM
They did a masterful job of confusing us as to which evidence is valid and which evidence is not.

People who are confused about the 26 volumes have confused themselves by not understanding what the 26 volumes are. It was not intended to be the long version of the WCR. The WC simply put everything they had gathered on the table whether or not it was probative or relevant. It was the job of the WC to go through it and make sense of it. In some cases they had to resolve conflicting evidence, mainly among the witness statements. The witnesses often gave testimony that conflicted with other witnesses and with the hard evidence. The WC was tasked with determining which parts of the eyewitness accounts were probative and which parts were just plain wrong. In the end, their conclusions for the most part were spot on.
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JFK Assassination Plus General Discussion And Debate / Re: JFK's raised left arm identified at Bethesda
« Last post by Royell Storing on Yesterday at 05:25:44 PM »
Quote from: John Corbett on Yesterday at 01:37:56 PM
The 26 volumes are a log of all the evidence and data collected before any of it was vetted for probative value or relevance. It was left to the commissioners and the staff lawyers to sort through all that raw data and make sense of it. They did a masterful job of that.

   So the WC came to a conclusion on the assassination of JFK, with 26 VOLUMES of evidence and data Not having been vetted for value or relevance? "Masterful"? More like, "Send In The Clowns".
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JFK Assassination Plus General Discussion And Debate / Re: Gov. John Connally Grips His White Stetson Hat at Z-272
« Last post by John Corbett on Yesterday at 05:19:04 PM »
Quote from: Zeon Mason on Yesterday at 04:36:11 PM
Yes it does seem ludicrous which is why it’s on Andrew and not us, to prove this Z190 and Z270 shot , beyond just his drawings and words which is why I suggested that it would take an experiment to overcome the many logically deduced criticisms that you and I and others have posted in this thread.

I've gone around and around with him pointing out the flaws in his theory but he still clings to it. It seems absurd on the face of it and gets even more ridiculous the deeper you dive into it. He has an infatuation with certain eye and ear witnesses as if they are empirical evidence of what happened rather than looking at the much more reliable hard evidence available. The Z-film is a better witness than all the human witnesses combined. It has told us within a few 18ths of a second when the second and third shots struck JFK. The evidence for when the first missed shot was fired is a little less definitive but I believe there are very strong clues for that although not everyone agrees with my assessment. Combining the Z-film with the recovery of the bullets, the shells, the rifle, the rifle bag, fiber evidence on the rifle and the bag, finger and palm prints prove beyond any reasonable doubt that Oswald fired the shots that killed JFK and seriously wounded JBC. Andrew chooses to ignore the solid evidence of the SBT and invent his own lone gunman scenario which makes absolutely no sense. I'm done pointing out the flaws in his scenario. He continues to believe he has discovered something that armies of researchers, both LN and CT, missed. He is a cult of one and it is going to remain that way. In 35 years of debating the assassination online, I've never come across anyone who believes a scenario even similar to his. I will confess that when I was a newbie to the discussion way back in 1991, I tried to come up with a similar lone gunman scenario that didn't involve the SBT. I think I had JFK hit sometime in the Z180s, JBC in the Z230s, and of course the Z313 headshot. Finally, I had to give way to common sense and admit to myself that there were way to many flaws in what I had pieced together to continue believing it. I realized the SBT is the lynchpin of the lone gunman theory. Without it, there had to be two shooters. However, we don't have to do without it. The SBT has stood the test of time and all efforts to tear it down.

I doubt Andrew will ever let go of his theory. If he was going to do so, he would have done so by now. I first came across it on John McAdams' forum way back in 2008 and I don't know how long he had been pushing it then. Nobody was buying it back then and nobody is buying it now, but he keeps on trying to sell it without success.
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JFK Assassination Plus General Discussion And Debate / Re: Zapruder film "fakery" and the ED Forum Kooks!
« Last post by Royell Storing on Yesterday at 05:11:20 PM »
Quote from: John Mytton on Yesterday at 06:10:38 AM
JohnC is right, you've been watching too much Dirty Harry, real life isn't a Hollywood movie.

All these Soldiers were struck in the head with FMJ bullets and not one soldier is forcefully propelled forward and in fact not even one falls forward, they simply crumple straight down and fall back towards the shooters.



Mythbusters had multiple men firing into a pig carcass and it barely moved.



So you think the closest images that we have to what's on the actual Zapruder Film is outdated but your digitally enhanced Zapruder Frames which obscures detail and is not much better than being covered with Vaseline is the Gold standard, Interesting!

JohnM

   Come on now John. We do Not know that ALL of those guys were shot in the head. What I do know is that NOT a single head EXPLODES. Not 1!
   And the template for "Dirty Harry", before there was "Dirty Harry" (1971), was Frank "Bullitt" (1968).
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JFK Assassination Plus General Discussion And Debate / Re: JFK's raised left arm identified at Bethesda
« Last post by Zeon Mason on Yesterday at 04:42:24 PM »
Quote from: John Corbett on Yesterday at 01:37:56 PM
The 26 volumes are a log of all the evidence and data collected before any of it was vetted for probative value or relevance. It was left to the commissioners and the staff lawyers to sort through all that raw data and make sense of it. They did a masterful job of that.

They did a masterful job of confusing us as to which evidence is valid and which evidence is not.
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JFK Assassination Plus General Discussion And Debate / Re: Gov. John Connally Grips His White Stetson Hat at Z-272
« Last post by Zeon Mason on Yesterday at 04:36:11 PM »
Quote from: John Corbett on Yesterday at 12:19:08 PM
Why would you need an experiment to know how ludicrous this theory is?

Yes it does seem ludicrous which is why it’s on Andrew and not us, to prove this Z190 and Z270 shot , beyond just his drawings and words which is why I suggested that it would take an experiment to overcome the many logically deduced criticisms that you and I and others have posted in this thread.
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JFK Assassination Plus General Discussion And Debate / Re: Mannlicher-Carcano?
« Last post by John Corbett on Yesterday at 01:47:45 PM »
I just found this listing for a Carcano short rifle.

https://collectorsfirearms.com/1111-italian-carcano-m38-short-6-5-carcano-r27052.html/

Unfortunately, it has already been sold. Asking price was $439.95. I would have thought it would have sold for more. I don't see a date for the sale. It appears to be the same model as what Oswald used. It does show that the "Oswald model" does occasionally become available if one keeps an eye out and gets lucky. Had I seen this ad before the rifle was sold, I would have been sorely tempted. I wonder how many of these are in private hands right now.
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JFK Assassination Plus General Discussion And Debate / Re: JFK's raised left arm identified at Bethesda
« Last post by John Corbett on Yesterday at 01:37:56 PM »
Quote from: Royell Storing on Yesterday at 12:06:28 AM
   Did you forget about the, "surgery to the head area", declaration that Lifton discovered buried inside the 26 Volumes? Your "pathologist" claim above is incorrect based on this being in the 26 volumes.

The 26 volumes are a log of all the evidence and data collected before any of it was vetted for probative value or relevance. It was left to the commissioners and the staff lawyers to sort through all that raw data and make sense of it. They did a masterful job of that.
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JFK Assassination Plus General Discussion And Debate / Re: Zapruder film "fakery" and the ED Forum Kooks!
« Last post by John Corbett on Yesterday at 12:27:53 PM »
Quote from: Zeon Mason on Yesterday at 03:29:53 AM
And Amos Euins said he heard 4 shots. He is a major close up witness who not only heard the shots but was looking AT the shooter AS the shooter fired the rifle.

And  Amos said the shooter was sticking the rifle OUT the window and yet Amos saw no scope on the rifle.

But Arnold Rowland from a block away , DID see a scope on the rifle in the hands of some person at the SW 6th floor at 12:15.

Eagle Eye Rowland  however completely missed seeing the SE window shooter sticking a rifle out the window while Amos was watching the shooter at 12:30.

So these witness DRIVE me crazy lolz

This is why uncorroborated witnesses should not be trusted. Not because they lie but because they don't have perfect recall. One witness said the rifle had no scope and another said it did. How can they both be right? Should we believe that Oswald had the scope on the rifle at 12:15, took it off before he shot JFK, then put it back on before he hid it behind some boxes? The event happened only one way yet if we believe all the witnesses, it happened a dozen or more ways. People who rely primarily on eye and ear witness accounts instead of the hard evidence are very, very foolish.
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JFK Assassination Plus General Discussion And Debate / Re: Gov. John Connally Grips His White Stetson Hat at Z-272
« Last post by John Corbett on Yesterday at 12:19:08 PM »
Quote from: Zeon Mason on Yesterday at 03:12:32 AM
I see in this Z260-Z290 range  that JC’s right shoulder appears to be rotating in the opposite direction from what would normally be expected from an impact of a 2000ft/ sec bullet hitting (presumably) the right of his upper back and exiting the right side of chest . Hitting the mass to the right of center of mass will usually impart angular momentum causing that mass to spin about the vertical axis ( JCs vertical spine) in the direction the bullet is traveling.

But I am not a physics expert , nor do I know for  certain the angle of this Z270 bullet hitting JC. If the bullet deflected rightward  going out of his chest, that might induce  some % of counterspin which could cancel out the initial entry spin.

I think it’s going to require an experiment with some replica human bodies that include head  arms and legs ( and a hat in the right hand of the JC model) to prove this Z190 and Z270 shot theory.

Generally I think probably most of the LNs prefer Z224 as a shot because of the forward movement of JC and his right shoulder rotating counter clockwise at Z225-Z230 to be indicative of transfer of momentum caused by bullet impact.

Note: As JC begins to lean back into Mrs Cs Lap, I think Andrew might concede that the expression on JCs face is “painful “ especially if I suggest that he has just felt the “ impact of the Z270 bullet 🙂

Why would you need an experiment to know how ludicrous this theory is?
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