JFK Assassination Forum

What if Zapruder hadn't filmed the assassination?

Oswald comes out guilty without the Zfilm, no question.  The SBT would still have been considered because the neck bullet did not stop at JFK and the only thing in front of JFK that was hit were three places on JBC, a couple of points on the windshield and frame and the curb near James Tague.

How would it have affected our knowledge of the assassination? Would the Single Bullet Theory have ever been developed?

According to David Belin as he related in his book Final Disclosure, Specter came up with the SBT after Belin had found an expert witness (whom he does not name but appears to be FBI Robert Frazier) who said that JBC was turned too far to the right after z240 for him to have received his torso wounds. That presented a real problem because that didn’t leave much time for two shots to have been fired if JFK was hit no earlier, than z210.  So it does appear that the zfilm was important in creating the SBT.

The original FBI models could have been based on witness evidence as far as the relative spacing is concerned, not necessarily on the Zfilm.

Without the zfilm the placement of JFK at the time of the first shot could be bracketed from witnesses and photos: eg as being between the Croft and Betzner photos and the Phill Willis photo.[Betzner gave a detailed statement on 22Nov63 and turned over his film.  Croft turned his film over later and the FBI had it developed, but he never gave a statement. Neither photo was included in the WC exhibits.]

The location of the head shot could be fairly accurately determined from the witness and other photographic evidence (eg Nix film). 

The second shot could then have been inferred as being between the first and third based on the shot pattern and without the zfilm the early FBI models would have been hard to refute.

However, there was the Altgens 6 photo that Altgens said was taken after just the first shot. The Belin expert could have used that photo to conclude that JBC must have been hit in the torso before then because of way he was turned. So, that may have led to suggest first shot SBT: that both men were struck on the first shot.  But with all the problems that creates it may not have persuaded the WC.

I have my doubts although there would be a dilemma for the finding that there were 3 shot and 3 hits, 2 on  JFK and 1 on JBC. Why were there only 2 bullets recovered if three had struck the victims. Maybe somebody would have developed the theory but it would be much more difficult to support.

I don't think the fact that not all the bullets were recovered plays much of a part in the SBT.

Ken Rahn spent a lot of time trying to prove the SBT by showing that the NAA data proved that all fragments came from the same bullet. That was until the Nation Academy of Sciences weighed in.  The FBI eventually admitted that using metallurgical science to identify bullets by comparative bullet lead analysis was fundamentally flawed.

But even if were proved that all the fragments came from one bullet, that would not prove the SBT. The fragments add up to less than half a bullet. So we are missing at least large parts of two bullets.

Try thinking before you write something as stupid as this.

You rely on the WC findings, right?

The WC relied completely on Hoover's FBI for the bulk of the investigation. Everything went through Hoover so if he was completely clueless than so was the WC! 

You're just trolling.

All I have done is show that the recollections of witnesses overwhelmingly put the first shot hitting JFK in the neck and the second shot striking JBC in the right armpit after the midpoint between the first and third, and the third striking JFK in the head.

So, according to that evidence the second shot occurred when JBC was turned sideways.  That is not my “theory”. That just follows from that witness evidence. And, this is exactly what Nellie and Gayle Newman recalled seeing shortly after the events.

Now you are saying that you can prove that, despite being independent and mutually consistent, this evidence is all wrong. So it is up to you to show that what the witnesses said happened could not have occurred.  So why don’t you show us why the bullet path through JBC ‘s torso doesn’t work at z271 but does at z222?

It's pointless even discussing any of this other crap because if you can't show it's even possible for JBC to be shot in the back at Z271, the rest of your theory collapses like a house of cards. I'm not even asking you to prove he was shot in that back at or about Z271. Just show us that it was possible. Apparently, you can't do that.

It's pointless even discussing any of this other crap because if you can't show it's even possible for JBC to be shot in the back at Z271, the rest of your theory collapses like a house of cards. I'm not even asking you to prove he was shot in that back at or about Z271. Just show us that it was possible. Apparently, you can't do that.

All I have done is show that the recollections of witnesses overwhelmingly put the first shot hitting JFK in the neck and the second shot striking JBC in the right armpit after the midpoint between the first and third, and the third striking JFK in the head.

So, according to that evidence the second shot occurred when JBC was turned sideways.  That is not my “theory”. That just follows from that witness evidence. And, this is exactly what Nellie and Gayle Newman recalled seeing shortly after the events.

Now you are saying that you can prove that, despite being independent and mutually consistent, this evidence is all wrong. So it is up to you to show that what the witnesses said happened could not have occurred.  So why don’t you show us why the bullet path through JBC ‘s torso doesn’t work at z271 but does at z222?

What if Zapruder hadn't filmed the assassination?

How would it have affected our knowledge of the assassination? Would the Single Bullet Theory have ever been developed? I have my doubts although there would be a dilemma for the finding that there were 3 shot and 3 hits, 2 on  JFK and 1 on JBC. Why were there only 2 bullets recovered if three had struck the victims. Maybe somebody would have developed the theory but it would be much more difficult to support.

Of course other people were filming but none showed the shooting from start to finish and none had the vantage point Zapruder did.

What other mysteries would we now be facing if not for Zapruder?

I could be wrong, but I don’t think there is any other photographic evidence that seems to clearly show a “back and to the left” JFK head movement. So, perhaps we might have avoided that controversy.