21
JFK Assassination Discussion & Debate / Re: How Do LNers Deal With Givens?
« Last post by Dan O'meara on Yesterday at 11:13:14 PM »What a Helicopter you are. I gave you 11 pieces of evidence to explain and your vague one sentence answer that Oswald was framed using his rifle hardly explained those 11 pieces of evidence. You didn't bother to explain how the conspirators got Oswald's rifle. You didn't explain how they got Oswald to bring a long paper bag into work that day. You don't explain how Oswald's palm and finger prints got on the bag. You didn't explain why fibers matching Oswald's rifle blanket ended in the bag. You didn't explain how fibers matching Oswald's shirt end up on the butt plate of the rifle. You didn't bother to explain why Oswald's fingerprints ended up on the boxes that were stacked to form a rifle rest oriented exactly how they would be if Oswald was facing down Elm St. You didn't bother to explain how the conspirators ensured Oswald wouldn't be seen elsewhere at the time the shots were fired. Just a simpleton statement that Oswald's rifle was used to frame him, with no evidence whatsoever that somebody else had used that rifle to kill JFK. Just crazy stuff you have imagined as an excuse to deny the overwhelming evidence of Oswald's guilt.
It's easy to conjure up a vague alternative story to the one the WCR presented. The devil is in the details and you have provided none. The WCR's narrative addressed all of the 11 items and a whole lot more. If we were to give you a grade for your effort, it would be an incomplete.
In six words I offered up an alternative that explained 10 of your 11 pieces of evidence - "Oswald was framed using his own rifle".
How is that "vague," you buffoon?
Now then, getting back to the topic of this thread, let's have your explanation for why Givens never mentioned going back up to the 6th floor when he was grilled about his movements, and what he knew about Oswald's movements, by the FBI on the day of the assassination?
Remember, he also failed to mention this incredibly important piece of information when being grilled by Fritz earlier in the day.
Try to make your answer rational.
You are free to use more than six words.
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JFK Assassination Discussion & Debate / Re: The Miracle On Elm Street
« Last post by Dan O'meara on Yesterday at 11:03:37 PM »Good post Dan, you almost nailed it. But maybe this time, explain why Arnold Rowland is to be believed as a reliable witness. It is well known what he said. Point out the part he gets right. The problem is he gets the description wrong. Weren’t you able to read all of this in the post you were referring to? Didn’t you understand it?
Instead of making grand proclamations, explain how his description of the man with a rifle framed in the 29 inch tall open window, which started 14 inches off the floor, is to be believed. Specter and the WC Panel knew he was full of it. I bet they were not impressed with him wasting their time.
Sorrels didn’t buy into Arnolds description of the man with the rifle having been standing 15 feet back into the room so Arnold moved the man up to 3 feet. Even Barbara noted he changed the distance. You probably do not have an issue with Rowland using a 30 odd size six caliber rifle, do you also have a 30 odd size six caliber rifle like Rowlands? Specter was enjoying himself asking him questions knowing he made up the answers. Maybe Arnold making things up is the kindred spirit you feel for Rowland. Even Gerald Ford was making fun of him by the end of it.
With such a great witness, it is not surprising he is the poster child for your whole conspiracy story. He lived in the same fantasy world.
The best part is his physical description of the man.
Mr. ROWLAND - He was rather slender in proportion to his size. I couldn't tell for sure whether he was tall and maybe, you know heavy, say 200 pounds, but tall whether he would be and slender or whether he was medium and slender, but in proportion to his size his build was slender.
HUH
-----------
To add insult to injury he was not sure if he was a white man or negro.
Arnold doesn't realize it, because Arnold admits he was never in the TSBD. His estimate of the height of the man with the rifle would be one to two feet tall
Mr. SPECTER - Could you give us an estimate on his height?
Mr. ROWLAND - No; I couldn't. That is why I said I can't state what height he would be. He was just slender in build in proportion with his width. This is something I find myself doing all the time, comparing things in perspective.
Mr. SPECTER - Was he a white man or a Negro or what?
Mr. ROWLAND - Seemed, well, I can't state definitely from my position because it was more or less not fully light or bright in the room. He appeared to be fair complexioned, not fair, but light complexioned, but dark hair.
According to Arnold’s description of the man standing next to the window, he was less than 43 inches tall. Actually a couple of feet short of 43 inches. It seems it would not be hard to locate him. You just had to look down. Way down.
The rifle is 42 inches and the actual window opening is 29 inches tall. Yet he can see all of the rifle and two to three feet above his head.
Nobody was buying that man with the rifle was 15 feet back in the room so Arnold had to move him closer.
Mr. SPECTER - And what is your best recollection as to how close to the window he was standing?
Mr. ROWLAND - He wasn't next to the window, but he wasn't very far back. I would say 3 to 5 feet back from the window.
Mr. SPECTER - How much of the rifle was separated from your line of vision by the window?
Mr. ROWLAND - The entire rifle was in my view.
LHO was 69 inches tall. Again, the window opening was 29 inches reaching a maximum window opening height of 43 inches in which to see the gunman.
Mr. SPECTER - And how much of his body, if any, was in the open view where there was no window between your eyes and the object of his body?
Mr. ROWLAND - Approximately two-thirds of his body just below his waist.
Mr. SPECTER - Up to what point?
Mr. ROWLAND - Mid point between the waist and the knees, this is again in my proportion to his height that I make that judgment.
Mr. SPECTER - So from the waist, some point between his knees and his waist, you started to see hi clear in the window?
Mr. ROWLAND - Yes.
Mr. SPECTER - And from that point how far up his body were you able to see without any obstruction of a window between you and him?
Mr. ROWLAND - To the top of his head. There was some space on top of that where I could see the wall behind him.
Mr. SPECTER - What is your best estimate of the space between the top of his head and the open window at the perspective you were observing?
Mr. ROWLAND - Two and a half, three feet, something on that--that is something very hard to ascertain. That would just be an estimation on my part.
No matter how badly you twist Rowland’s testimony, this is not ever going to be the smoking gun you are so desperately hoping to find.
Any new theories remotely relevant to the assassination? This one is the joke is on you, courtesy of Arnold Rowland.
Just to have it clearly on the record, Jack - Do you believe Rowland invented seeing a man with a rifle on the 6th floor of the TSBD building?
It's a yes/no thing.
23
JFK Assassination Discussion & Debate / Re: Everyone is an expert
« Last post by John Corbett on Yesterday at 10:55:24 PM »The last sentence applies perfectly to your post.
Even a newly hired Secret Service official should have realized that, if nothing else, at least the tall buildings in the plaza where the motorcade would have to slow down to make two hairpin turns needed to be checked and monitored. At a minimum, the SS should have asked Dallas police officials to have some of their officers scan the windows of the four tall buildings in Dealey Plaza as the motorcade approached the plaza and while the motorcade was moving through the plaza. This would not have required "a small army" but no more than 12 officers, with three officers assigned to scan the windows of each of the plaza's four tall buildings.
That argument presumes that Dealey Plaza was the only location an assassination could have taken place. The motorcade passed through numerous tall buildings on Harwood and Main streets before arriving in Dealey Plaza. What reason would they have to take more precautions in Dealey Plaza than elsewhere in downtown along the parade route. It is a fallacy that the motorcade would have to slow down more for the 110 degree turn from Houston to Elm than the 90 degree turns from Harwood onto Main and from Main onto Houston. The motorcade was traveling quite slowly for most of the way in downtown Dallas.
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In 1963, the Secret Service routinely asked local police to scan tall buildings along motorcade routes, but this was not done in the case of the Dallas motorcade. This was one of the many suspicious deviations from SS standard procedure that occurred in Dallas.
I've heard similar claims made for decades but I have yet to see anyone offer a cite for what "SS standard procedure" was in 1963. Without such a source, we can disregard such claims as nothing more than assumptions.
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Even the WC admitted that the "usual practice" of the SS official who was in charge of security arrangements for presidential motorcades, Winston Lawson, was to ask local police to scan the windows of buildings along motorcade routes. The WC also admitted that just covering "the most obvious points of possible ambush" along the motorcade route "might well have included" the TSBD:
Admittedly, protective measures cannot ordinarily be taken with regard to all buildings along a motorcade route. Levels of risk can be determined, however, as has been confirmed by building surveys made since the assassination for the Department of the Treasury. An attempt to cover only the most obvious points of possible ambush along the route in Dallas might well have included the Texas School Book Depository Building.
Hindsight is 20/20. As of 12:29 on 11/22/1963, there was no reason for anyone to believe the TSBD posed any greater threat to JFK than any of the other tall buildings in downtown Dallas, nor any greater threat than tall buildings in any of the other cities in which JFK rode in an open top car through urban canyons.
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Instead of such advance precautions, the Secret Service depended in part on the efforts of local law enforcement personnel stationed along the route. In addition, Secret Service agents riding in the motorcade were trained to scan buildings as part of their general observation of the crowd of spectators. These substitute measures were of limited value. Agent Lawson was unable to state whether he had actually instructed the Dallas police to scan windows of buildings lining the motorcade route, although it was his usual practice to do so. If such instructions were in fact given, they were not effectively carried out. Television films taken of parts of the motorcade by a Dallas television station show the foot patrolmen facing the passing motorcade, and not the adjacent crowds and buildings, as the procession passed.
Nobody is arguing that security measures in 1963 were anywhere near as stringent in 1963 as they are today. The Secret Service learned a bitter lesson on that day in 1963, as well as on the attempt assassinations, of George Wallace, Gerald Ford (twice), Ronald Reagan, and Donald Trump(three times). Of the four men listed above, three actually were shot which means their security measures failed. Badly. With each incident, the Secret Service learned lessons on how they could give better protection to the protectee. In the final analysis, the primary reason JFK was so vulnerable is because he had a fondness for riding in slow moving open top cars so he could be seen up close by the public (voters). He understood the risks and decided the political considerations outweighed the security concerns.
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Three officers from the Dallas Police Department were assigned to the intersection of Elm and Houston during the morning of November 22 prior to the motorcade. All received their instructions early in the morning from Capt. P. W. Lawrence of the traffic division. . . .
Captain Lawrence was not instructed to have his men watch buildings along the motorcade route and did not mention the observation of buildings to them. The three officers confirm that their primary concern was crowd and traffic control, and that they had no opportunity to scan the windows of the Depository or any other building in the vicinity of Elm and Houston when the motorcade was passing. (Warren Report, pp. 448-449)[/font]
Just how man windows do you think those three cops could have been scanning at any one time and what are the chances they would have spotted Oswald in time to stop the assassination? The Nix film shows us that Oswald did not brandish his rifle until after the limo had turned onto Elm St. and gone past the sniper's nest.
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I take it you have not read any of Vince Palamara's research on JFK's SS protection nor watched any of his videos on the subject.
That might be the truest statement you've made on this forum. Palamara is a kook. I've read enough of his crap to know that. What reason would I have to read more from him?
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For any newcomers or silent readers, I recommend reading Palamara's book Survivor's Guilt: The Secret Service and the Failure to Protect President Kennedy. My book A Comforting Lie: The Myth That a Lone Gunman Killed President Kennedy includes a long chapter on Kennedy's inexcusably and suspiciously weak SS protection in Dallas, including numerous photos that show that in other motorcades (1) SS agents rode on the limousine's side boards and/or rear boards or walked alongside the limo and (2) local police motorcycles traveled alongside the limo, neither of which was done in Dealey Plaza.
If you want to find out just how kooky some of the most popular CT authors can be, by all means read some of Palamara's crap. You should get a good chuckle from it.
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I also recommend Palamara's video Uniquely Insecure: The Tragic Failure of the Secret Service on November 22, 1963.
That would require 21 minutes and 47 seconds out of their lives that they could never get back?
24
JFK Assassination Discussion & Debate / Re: Acoustic Evidence
« Last post by Jarrett Smith on Yesterday at 10:44:59 PM »I recommend that everyone, especially newcomers to the acoustical evidence, read Jason Wakefield's March 2003 article "An In-Depth Study of the Acoustical Evidence in the JFK Assassination." Wakefield's article provides an excellent overview of the history of the acoustical evidence and where research on the dictabelt stood as of 2003.
In 2003, Linsker and his colleagues were still struggling to produce a response to Dr. Don Thomas's 2001 defense of the acoustical evidence in the forensic science journal Science & Justice. The Linsker group submitted a rebuttal to Thomas's article in March 2002 but quickly withdrew it. In reading the draft rebuttal, it is apparent why they withdrew it: it raised only minor points against Thomas's article. They spent three more years working on a response.
In this 2001 article, Dr. Thomas made a convincing case, based on the NRC/NAS panel's calculations for the timing of the transmissions on Channel 1 and Channel 2, that the Bellah "you want" transmission was a far more plausible timing indicator than the Decker "hold everything" transmission. In short, Dr. Thomas showed that if the NRC/NAS timing calculations were correct (and he assumed they were), the Bellah transmission was a far superior timing indicator than the Decker transmission, which refuted the NRC/NAS panel's main argument against the acoustical evidence.
It is crucial to understand that the primary scientific argument that the NRC/NAS panel made against the acoustical evidence was that the Decker "hold everything" transmission was crosstalk and that this proved the impulse patterns on the dictabelt were recorded about one minute after the shooting. Until the panel finally looked into Steve Barber's information about the Decker transmission, they had done nothing but manage to reduce the probability of the timing-movement correlations from 99+% to 93% and to reduce the probability of the grassy knoll shot from 95+% to 77.7% (and only by introducing two severe errors into their calculations).
It is even more crucial to understand that the Decker crosstalk hoax was based on the demonstrably false assumption that Channel 2 stopped recording for about 60 seconds. You don't need to be a scientist to understand that if Channel 2 had stopped recording for 60 seconds, the police dispatcher's subsequent time notations would reflect such a pause, but this did not happen. There is no time missing between the 12:30 and 12:32 transmissions, and the 12:35 and 12:36 time notations occur exactly five and six minutes respectively after the 12:30 time notation, proving, at least on this planet, that Channel 2 could not have stopped recording for 60 seconds (nor for 35 seconds). Dr. Thomas:
The linear regression analysis of the dispatcher's time notations proves that the Audograph machine must have shut off for extended times prior to the assassination. But after 12:30, the approximate time of the shooting, the dispatcher's announced times and the actual elapsed time fall into very close agreement for the six minutes after the shooting. There did not seem to be any appreciable amount of time missing, and none between 12:30 and 12:32 when the relevant broadcasts were made and where a full minute of time is supposed to be missing according to the NRC Panel. That is, there is exactly 120 seconds of playback time between the dispatcher's time notations at 12:30 and 12:32. . . .
Note for example (Table 15) that the dispatcher's time notation for 12:32 occurs exactly two minutes after the notation at 12:30. The NRC panel's theory holds that the recorder stopped for a half minute during this interval. It is indeed possible that the real interval between the time notations was actually two and a half minutes apart and by coincidence the lost 31 seconds only makes it appear that no time was lost. But if this were the case, one would expect to see an offset in the time notations downstream. But there is not. The 12:35 and 12:36 time notations fall exactly five and six minutes respectively after the 12:30 time notation, suggesting that the recording is continuous. . . . (Hear No Evil, 2010, pp. 638-639)
So let us return to the Linsker group and Dr. Thomas's 2001 article. As mentioned, using the NRC/NAS panel's own timing calculations, Dr. Thomas showed that the Bellah "you want" transmission, which the panel acknowledged was crosstalk, was a far more probable timing indicator than the Decker "hold everything" transmission.
In order to refute Dr. Thomas's argument, Linsker and his colleagues had to make a painful admission when they finally submitted their rebuttal in 2005: they had to admit that the NRC/NAS panel's timing calculations were badly off the mark because they had miscalculated the needle-skip adjustment as 60 seconds when in fact it was 35 seconds.
But this was the poster child for a "ruinous victory," i.e., a victory that does fatal damage to the victor. Why? Because, in proving the Bellah crosstalk was not the best time indicator, Linsker and his colleagues were forced to admit that the only way the Decker "hold everything" transmission could be crosstalk was if Channel 2 stopped recording for 35 seconds. This version of the recording-pause theory faced the same unanswerable objection that the NRC/NAS version of the theory faced: a substantial pause on Channel 2, whether 60 seconds, or 44 seconds, or 35 seconds, would cause the dispatcher's subsequent time notations to reflect such a pause, but they do not.
Again, as many scholars have noted, the 12:35 and 12:36 time notations occur exactly five and six minutes respectively after the 12:30 time notation, and there is no time missing between the 12:30 and 12:32 broadcasts. How could this be if Channel 2 stopped recording for 35 seconds? Linsker et al. offered no explanation for why the alleged 35-second pause does not show up in the dispatcher's subsequent time notations. This is one of the facts that caught Dr. David Kaiser's attention and caused him to reject the attacks on the acoustical evidence.
And, as discussed in previous replies, subsequent research by BBN scientists from 2015-2019 has proved that the Decker transmission is an overdub and that the Fisher "I'll check" transmission is crosstalk, which proves that the dictabelt's impulse patterns were recorded during the assassination. Dr. Josiah Thompson discusses this historic new research at length in his book Last Second in Dallas. BBN scientists Dr. James Barger and Dr. Richard Mullen each wrote an appendix for the book.
Groden's matching of the film and acoustic data.
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JFK Assassination Discussion & Debate / Re: How Do LNers Deal With Givens?
« Last post by John Corbett on Yesterday at 10:19:44 PM »The LNers' replies in this thread are yet another example of the fact that they hold pro-WC witnesses to a much lower standard than they hold anti-WC witnesses. When they're dealing with anti-WC witnesses, they pounce on even the tiniest inconsistencies in their accounts and pretend they've found strong evidence of falsehood or unreliability. They ignore any and all evidence that corroborates the witnesses' accounts. They search far and wide for any prior evidence of character flaws in the witnesses, and if they find any, they cite them as a reason to disbelieve the witnesses' accounts. If an anti-WC witness gave more information in a subsequent account than he/she gave in their first account, LNers pounce on that as an indication of fraud or unreliability, as if everyone always remembers every single relevant detail in their first account of an event.
But, oh, when LNers deal with pro-WC witnesses, they overlook or bend over backward to excuse clear contradictions, outright changes of story, demonstrably impossible claims, failure to mention key information in the first version of their accounts, character flaws, etc., etc.
The accusation is simply not true. I hold all witnesses to the same standard. If their account can be corroborated by other forms of evidence, I find them to be credible. If their account is refuted by other forms of evidence, I find them to be not credible. If their account can neither be corroborated nor refuted, I do not pass judgement on it. It becomes a big MAYBE.
26
JFK Assassination Discussion & Debate / Re: How Do LNers Deal With Givens?
« Last post by John Corbett on Yesterday at 10:16:08 PM »The best CT alternative I could offer is that Oswald was involved with the shooter.
Oswald brought the MC rifle onto the TSBD that morning and hid it in the attached garage part just before he then went into TSBD thru the back door.
The shooter if not some other employee, would have had to been disguised as perhaps a contract worker. He retrieved the bagged disassembled rifle from where Oswald had hidden it in the annex bldg.
The shooter took the bag to the 7th floor and assembled the rifle , probably between 11:45-12:00.
The shooter then remained hidden on the 7th floor until about 12:10 when he took the assembled rifle (covered with the bag )in case he was inadvertantly seen coming down to 6th floor landing by somebody coming up stairs from 5th floor.
The shooter had checked out the 6th floor at 12:00 thinking it was clear but BRW came up unseen by the shooter at 12:05 as the shooter went back up to 7th floor to get the rifle.
When the shooter returns to the 6th floor carrying rifle in bag, he was planning to shoot from the SW window. He was surprised as he approached the SW window to notice BRW was at the SE window. Thus he was only momentarily sighted by Arnold Rowland at 12:15.
The shooter backed away from the SW window,put the rifle back in the bag ( in case another unexpected person might appear) , moved himself with bag in hand to the NE corner of the 6th floor behind some boxes where he could wait and see if BRW would leave the floor.
The shooter saw BRW leave the floor by 12:24. The shooter then had has potentially 2-3 minutes to have arranged 3 boxes stacked as a rifle rest. The shooter was wearing gloves which is why he left no fingerprints on the boxes, the bag, and the rifle. The Oswald print on one of the boxes was merely coincidence of Oswald having handled MANY boxes when he was helping move boxes earlier.
The shooter took the rifle out of the bag and left the bag there in the SN. He lowered the window and placed the box on the window ledge just before the Bronson film started.
The shooter sat on one box and kept himself out of sight during Bronson film and Hughes film.
The shooter hid the MC rifle between the boxes near the staircase as early as 25 seconds post shots because he could run faster than 8ft/sec, not having to wipe prints from rifle while running with it.
Just one question. Other than BRW showing up, is there any evidence that any of this happened?
Why do you need and alternative to the WCR narrative? OK. That's two questions.
27
JFK Assassination Discussion & Debate / Re: Determining a Timestamp for Darnell
« Last post by Matt Brooks on Yesterday at 07:11:12 PM »Nobody has detailed the route Wiegman took: (1) from the point we see him stumbling/falling on the Bell Film, to, (2) the point we see him standing at the bottom of the Knoll. Point (1) and Point (2) are Not inline. The Wiegman story has always been that he Stopped Filming when he ran Down the knoll. Now, we know that Wiegman was also Not Filming when he moved from point (1) to place him inline with point (2). This expands the Wiegman Tick/Tock. If Wiegman stumbled and then Fell as he moved into position to run down the knoll, this would be additional Tick/Tock.
"Pictures Of The Pain" details that Wiegman saw SA Lem Johns UP the knoll. Is it during the above time frame that Wiegman saw SA Johns? Wiegman claiming to have seen SA Johns UP the knoll, is contrary to Johns claiming that he never left Elm St after jumping out of the LBJ SS Car. For its' initial 30 yrs, the Wiegman Film was ballyhooed as being filmed "continuously". Did Wiegman actually continue filming while he moved between points (1) and (2) and film SA Lem Johns UP the knoll? This possible "lost" footage would also be "lost" Tick/Tock. To this day, NBC has steadfastly refused to release the Original Wiegman film.
We'll just raid NBC's Archives and take it by force by all means.
28
General Discussion And Debate (Any Topic) / Re:Donald Trump is a Piece of Uh Oh Uh Oh Uh Oh Uh Oh
« Last post by Michael Capasse on Yesterday at 06:37:17 PM »The "war" is not costing much. Many of those are sunk costs regardless of whether they are engaged in a conflict or floating around the world. The costs are certainly much less than the harm that Iran would cause if they were allowed to develop and use a nuclear weapon. How much did 9/11 eventually cost us because Bill Clinton put politics ahead of taking out bin Laden when he had the chance? I do agree, however, that the overall military budget is not sustainable. Trump's addition is a grain of sand compared to decades long accumulation of debt. Politicians don't want to be the bearer of bad news. They feel as though that they can't get elected stating truths such as the socialist programs at not sustainable given all the spending. How many billions were wasted or stolen in fraud using COVID as a pretext? They will wait until it collapses rather than acknowledge that reforms are necessary.
Hold on. You're not calling it a war? - So, do u prefer conflict?
but not actual war, huh? - Fox News propaganda is very effective indeed.29
General Discussion And Debate (Any Topic) / Re: Am I the only one...
« Last post by Michael Capasse on Yesterday at 05:50:54 PM »The left opposes the death penalty. Typically, it is leftist judges and organizations that impede the process with countless appeals. Even in red states such as TN, the legal system includes leftist judges and lawyers who look for any excuse to interfere. They only have to find one such judge in the multitude of appeals to create delays. There are leftist organizations dedicated to impeding the death penalty regardless of the circumstances. They oppose it on moral grounds and undermine the legal process.
OK. Who was the leftist judge(s) and organization(s) that impeded this process?
Or is that just some CT phantom leftest ONLY group you make up - like w/ elections and pandemics?
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...I find it very difficult to believe there was not some intent to undermine her execution.
30
JFK Assassination Discussion & Debate / Re: Determining a Timestamp for Darnell
« Last post by Royell Storing on Yesterday at 05:20:03 PM »The opening frame of the Darnell footage is less than 20 seconds after the headshot.
At the time of the opening frame Weigman, is filming the Hesters.
He finishes filming around 17 seconds after the headshot.
Four or five seconds into this footage we see Weigman running down the knoll to where the Newmans are.
Nobody has detailed the route Wiegman took: (1) from the point we see him stumbling/falling on the Bell Film, to, (2) the point we see him standing at the bottom of the Knoll. Point (1) and Point (2) are Not inline. The Wiegman story has always been that he Stopped Filming when he ran Down the knoll. Now, we know that Wiegman was also Not Filming when he moved from point (1) to place him inline with point (2). This expands the Wiegman Tick/Tock. If Wiegman stumbled and then Fell as he moved into position to run down the knoll, this would be additional Tick/Tock.
"Pictures Of The Pain" details that Wiegman saw SA Lem Johns UP the knoll. Is it during the above time frame that Wiegman saw SA Johns? Wiegman claiming to have seen SA Johns UP the knoll, is contrary to Johns claiming that he never left Elm St after jumping out of the LBJ SS Car. For its' initial 30 yrs, the Wiegman Film was ballyhooed as being filmed "continuously". Did Wiegman actually continue filming while he moved between points (1) and (2) and film SA Lem Johns UP the knoll? This possible "lost" footage would also be "lost" Tick/Tock. To this day, NBC has steadfastly refused to release the Original Wiegman film.
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