JFK Assassination Forum

You gave us 9 pages of witnesses recollections which is the most unreliable source of evidence we have and your arguments which are not evidence at all.

I see you didn’t read those 9 pages.  If you had you would realize how consistently similar the witnesses are and realize how improbable it is that you could get a distribution of witness evidence that like this;

where the vast majority were all wrong, yet the same witnesses provided this distribution of the number of shots and were right:

Are we still talking about JFK? He is not even visible at Z222. On what basis do you say he has moved left? Your imagination?

I should have said z224 when we first see his hands and left shoulder. We can see his hands and body in z225 and we can see that the hands remain in the same position when we see that he is no longer up against the right side of the car and is obviously showing signs of reacting to his neck wound. He remains in that position when he brings his hands to his face. Here is the whole sequence:

The more you try to save this turkey of a scenario you are presenting, the sillier you sound.https://assassinationresearch.com/zfilm/z200.jpg
Open your eyes!!! He most certainly is calmly waving to the spectators on Elm as we can see the white cuff of his right hand up in the air and his head is turned toward the spectators. I could have picked just above any from Z193-205 that shows the same thing.

Ok. We know you disagree with the HSCA photographic panel that JFK was showing a reaction to a severe external stimulus by z207 from a shot at z190. I am simply pointing out that the change begins at z193. Here is the entire sequence:

4-5 inches from his spine would still result in a wound to his back. The fact the entry wound was near his right armpit indicates the bullet passed farther to the right than your silly figuring tells you.

Not with JBC turned sharply right:


Finally, all I am saying is that one does not have to reject large bodies of witness evidence to reach the conclusion that all shots were fired from the SN.  The SBT is not only inconsistent with large bodies of evidence, it is not required to support the conclusion that Oswald fired all three shots. The rest of the evidence shows that.

That's an excellent view of the critical frames. When JFK reappears at Z225, he has been shot but his right arm was still moving downward at Z225, a motion he began shortly before he went behind the sign. We know that by comparing the position of his right arm to Z224. It is lower at Z225. It wasn't until Z226 that JFK's arm starts upward, the same frame JBC's arm started upward.

DVP has argued that at Z225 JFK and JBC both show other signs of being struck and he might be right about that. He bases that on JFK's facial expression at Z225. Given the low resolution of the Z-film and we can't compare JFK's facial expression to Z224, I don't think that is conclusive. There is
no question that JBC's right shoulder dips dramatically at Z225 but I simply can't say whether that is a reflexive response or it is being moved by the force of the bullet. Either seems possible to me.

Well, I gave you 9 pages of the evidence that the last two shots were closer together than the first two. I am not going to do that every time I mention it. I am just going to refer to the body of evidence bearing this out. Do you not agree that this large body of evidence set out in those 9 pages is evidence of the 1......2.
..3 shot pattern? Ditto for the 20+ witnesses that said JFN reacted to the first shot and the other 7 bodies of evidence.

You gave us 9 pages of witnesses recollections which is the most unreliable source of evidence we have and your arguments which are not evidence at all.

What is the normal reaction to being shot through the neck?

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I don't know if there is such a thing as a "normal reaction" but if there is, it probably looks a lot like what JFK did starting at Z226.

The change starts at z193-194. By z222 he has moved left and his hands are clenched in front of him.

Are we still talking about JFK? He is not even visible at Z222. On what basis do you say he has moved left? Your imagination?

It may be that he did not immediately know that he had been shot through the neck. It may be that he did not realize how serious things were until he tried to take a breath and realized he couldn't breathe. A person takes a breath about every 4 seconds so maybe his dramatic reaction at z226 is when he took that next breath. (He was also wearing a complete upper body corset so when he moves his entire torso moves).

The more you try to save this turkey of a scenario you are presenting, the sillier you sound.

He is not waving after z193. The change begins after z193.

https://assassinationresearch.com/zfilm/z200.jpg
Open your eyes!!! He most certainly is calmly waving to the spectators on Elm as we can see the white cuff of his right hand up in the air and his head is turned toward the spectators. I could have picked just above any from Z193-205 that shows the same thing. JFK begins to go behind the sign at Z205 and he is blocked from our view for just about one second. Just before he goes behind the sign he had started to lower his right hand. His right hand is still part way up when it becomes visible at Z224 and when we compare that frame to Z225, his arm is still being lowered at that point but is still part way up. It isn't until Z226 that his arms and JBC's right arm start moving rapidly upward in reaction to the single bullet having passed through both of them a few frames earlier. It's impossible to pinpoint the precise moment that single bullet struck but it would have been slightly before JBC's jacket bulged out at Z224.

 

He turns forward, brings his hand down and eventually his arm. By z222 both hands are up in front of him and are cupped or clenched. That is about 1.5 seconds and we really don't know when those hands took that position because he was behind the sign before then..

Pure BS. JFK is not even visible at Z222. His right hand becomes visible at Z224 and when we compare that to Z225 when his face reappears. his hand was still moving downward at Z225. it was at frame Z226 that his arms start to move dramatically upward.

So his previous actions could not be a reaction to the shot through his neck?

So says Dr. Andrew Mason.

They asked more than 50 witnesses

Oh, brother. More cherry picked witnesses. I'll gladly take the Z-film over all 50 of those witnesses. I would say the same if it was 500 or 5000.

what happened and the thrust of what they said happened is similar. But you do have to read what they said.

No I don't because we have the Z-film and that tells me exactly what happened and it trumps the recollections of every witness in DP.

Maybe because his back/shoulders were turned sharply right. Maybe he was not as far left as you suggest. Itek said 4-8 inches. If he was 4 inches inside and leaning forward a bit, it could have passed 4-5 inches or so from his spine.

4-5 inches from his spine would still result in a wound to his back. The fact the entry wound was near his right armpit indicates the bullet passed farther to the right than your silly figuring tells you.

Ok lets have another look at Adams & Styles great escape.
Adams said that after the shots they stood at the 4th floor window for 20 sec.  Styles said a bit longer. Adams said that they went to the back stairs.  Styles said that they went to the elevator first.  How long did they stand at the elevator (was the electricity off).  From there they would have walked throo the storage area to the back stairs via the door near the elevator, not the door from the office.  Anyhow the elevator detour adds a few seconds to their transit.  I reckon that they didn’t enter the storage area until 40 sec after the shots.

After entering the storage area Adams & Styles would have taken about 48 sec to exit to the Houston dock, this route having the same overall distance & the same length of stairway & the same time as the Oswald re-enactment.  Actually, they were rushing, whilst in The 6th Floor Museum youtube re-enactment "Oswald" aint, so they would have exited in say 40 sec, making it a total of 80 sec (instead of Adam's claimed 60 sec).

In Secret Service re-enactments in the TSBD Oswald took 78 sec & 74 sec to get to the 2nd floor (after the last shot).  In a modern Sixth Floor Museum re-enactment in a similar warehouse Oswald took 48 seconds without rushing.  In the Secret Service re-enactment the Agent is mincing along nonchalant & smelling the flowers as he goes.  He must have been paid by the second.  In The 6th Floor Museum re-enactment "Oswald" was paid by the yard, but wasn’t rushing, & didn’t take any short cuts.

The critical thing is that Oswald had already quietly snuk around the say 8 paces from one leg of the stairs to the other leg well before Adams & Styles had entered the storage area.  Indeed he would have already reached the 2nd floor & exited the stairs if Adams & Styles took 48 sec to enter the storage area.

Even if Oswald did take say 8 paces on the 4th floor (to get from one leg of the stairs to the other leg) while Adams & Styles were already in the storage area then there is a possibility that they couldn’t easily see him.  The sight line from the door to the stairs is a long diagonal (they entered via the door near the elevator)(ie very near the Houston wall), there are concrete columns, there are high stacks of boxes, & possibly other infrastructure, & Adams & Styles & Oswald are not tall.  Photos of other floors in the TSBD show that it is nigh impossible to see very far on a diagonal if there are stacks of boxes.  And Oswald's 8 paces do not cross a window.  But we don’t need any of that stuff.  Oswald had already passed the 4th floor when Adams & Styles entered the storage area.

In Baker & Truly re-enactments Baker took 90 sec & 75 sec to get up to the 2nd floor after the first shot (equal to  100 sec or 85 sec if after the shots).  Baker said that he had been  slower than that there 90 sec, so lets call it 100 sec.  In which case Baker & Truly enter the storage area of the first floor at say 80 sec.  That allows 20 sec to gallop to the elevators, they are sitting at floor 5 & 6 say, the west elevator wont come down probly koz the gate has been left open. So, they then gallop to the stairs & up one floor to the 2nd floor (where they see Oswald).

Adams exited the TSBD to the Houston dock  80 sec after the shots.  I wont call it the rear dock koz the Elm St dock (the Elm dock) is sometimes called the rear dock.  Baker & Truly entered the storage area at 80 sec.  Hence Baker & Truly didn’t see Adams & Styles.  In any case their sight-line would have been affected by stacks of books.  In any case 2 gals exiting that far doorway would not have worried them & would be forgettable.  And there were other workers on the first floor.  And Baker & Truly were hell bent on getting to the roof.

It’s a mystery why Baker was at all worried by Oswald, ie on the lowly 2nd floor, the first level that they reached on the way up, with 6 more levels to go after the 2nd (the roof being level 8 ).  Had they used an elevator (ie Plan A) Baker would have happily gone straight up to the 7th floor. He wouldn’t have stopped at every floor & taken valuable time to check for snipers.  For sure he wouldn’t have stopped the elevator at the 2nd floor, even if he had seen Oswald.  The whole sorry saga reminds me of a Monty Python film where the knight slays everyone he meets on the way up a castle tower to save a damsel in distress.

So, where were we, we have Adams & Styles exiting at 80 sec & Baker & Truly entering at 80 sec.  There is no problem there at all.  That leaves us with one big problem.  Why did Oswald stop at the 2nd floor?   He was at least 10 sec ahead of Adams & Styles.  Had Oswald not stopped he would have been at the front door before Baker & Truly.  Hell, it could have been Oswald that volunteered to show Baker the stairs, ie doing a U-turn, & praps going all the way back up with Baker.  On the way up it would have been Oswald saying "that man works here".
Oswald had time.  But he dug in on the 2nd floor.  Why?

Nearly forgot. Praps i should have written this first.  Dorothy Garner followed Adams & Styles to the stairs.  I think that Garner belatedly decided to follow Adams & Styles down in the elevator.  And she saw that Adams & Styles had headed for the back stairs, so she praps decided to follow, instead of taking the front stairs.  Anyhow she didn’t go down the back stairs, she looked out the nearby western window (there is no western window in her office), & there sure was lots to see, bedlam, so she watched for we don’t know how long.

She said she saw Baker & Truly gallop past (they would have been 10 ft away).  But Baker & Truly make no mention of Garner, certainly Baker didn’t slay her, i mean stick his gun in her ribs.  And of course she didn’t see Oswald, or anyone else, Oswald was long gone.

Anyhow, Oswald got to the 2nd floor in 48 sec.  Baker & Truly got there in 100 sec.
Why did Oswald stop?
What did Oswald do for 52 sec?

Remember, this "getaway" car is 17.5 feet long and was parked Back from the traffic signal. This would put your claimed, "...what looks like the rear end....", well to the left of Fedora Man. There's nothing there. Not Yet!

Dear Royell,

What kind of strange-looking car was that on the other side of Elm Street Extension, anyway?

It looks like some kind of welded-together monstrosity!!!

-- Tom