JFK Assassination Forum

I don't care how consistent your chosen witnesses are with each other, they aren't consistent with what the Z-film shows which invalidates them. I will never understand your obsession with relying on witnesses when we have so much more reliable forms of evidence to tell us what happened.

You are relying entirely on JBC saying he turned to his right after the first shot and you are relying entirely on you thinking that happened at z164-170.  So you are relying on only one witness and you are also ignoring the possibility that his turn to look at JFK occurred after z230. 

I am suggesting that one can rely on a large number of witnesses who said the same thing independently.  In fact, there are at  least 22 witnesses who said JFK reacted to the first shot and not a single witness said he smiled and waved after the first shot. That is 22:0.  If they were assumed to be no more than 50% reliable, the probability that all 22 would get it wrong is 1/2^22= 1 in 4 million. If they were 95% accurate as the studies on witness recollection show, the probability that they would all be wrong is on the order of 1 in 1000 trillion.  But you are entitled to stick to your interpretation of the zfilm.  I am just astonished that it would persuade anyone to conclude that 80%-100% of the witnesses as to three different facts (shot pattern, JFK hit by first shot, Location of JFK at time of first shot) were all wrong in the same way.

The sequence you posted shows that from Z189 until JFK goes behind the sign, the only thing he was doing was slowly and calmly lowering his right hand after waving to the few remaining spectators on that section of Elm St.

That is all he does. You are right.  He stops waving at z193. He then turns forward and lowers his hand.  That is what witnesses said he did in response to the first shot.  See Mary Woodward:

It think it is hilarious that after telling us JBC only rotate his shoulders at most 30 degrees to the right you show a drawing that shows his shoulders turned about 75-80 degrees in order to avoid being hit by the bullet exiting JFK's throat. You also show him leaning way over to the side of the car. When you have to resort to such extreme exaggerations to make your theory work, doesn't that cause you to question the validity of your theory?

I said that at z224 JBC's shoulders were rotated only 30 degrees at most:
 
For a shot at z193 JBC was turned far to the right, close to 2:30/3 o'clock (75-90 degrees):

One should reject any large body of witnesses who give accounts that conflict with the Z-fillm.

Maybe you should study their evidence first. It is much more likely that the large proportion of witnesses got it right if it was a simple observation of a detail reported by most witnesses.

I once did a presentation on fact finding to a professional group using Powerpoint. Near the beginning of the presentation a playing card for exactly one second and made no comment. At the end of the presentation, I asked the audience if they noticed a playing card and, if so, to write down on a slip what the card was.  About 70% said Four of Spades and 30% chose other cards. One person had not noticed the card because they were not looking at the screen for that one second. I asked him to decide what the card was from the evidence provided on the slips. He said "Four of spades" and he was absolutely right. Witnesses are reliable. Not all and not always. But large numbers of witnesses that agree are quite reliable.

I agree with the CTs on one point. Without the SBT, there had to be two shooters and a conspiracy. Fortunately we have the Z-film and other evidence that tells use positively the SBT is valid. I would go so far as to agree with Dale Myers when he said it isn't a single bullet theory, it is a single bullet fact.

The real reason for the SBT is the assumption that all of JBC's wounds occurred on the same shot.  If that was the case, then there was no where for the shot through JFK to go other than to strike JBC and if he was struck only once, the SBT would have to be correct.  I am suggesting that the SBT is wrong because so much evidence conflicts with it.  And I suggest the reason it is wrong is that the assumption that JBC was struck by only one bullet is wrong.

I agree that the Groden black &white photo is obviously a "Fake"

Authentic Autopsy Photo.

I see you didn’t read those 9 pages.  If you had you would realize how consistently similar the witnesses are and realize how improbable it is that you could get a distribution of witness evidence that like this;

where the vast majority were all wrong, yet the same witnesses provided this distribution of the number of shots and were right:

I don't care how consistent your chosen witnesses are with each other, they aren't consistent with what the Z-film shows which invalidates them. I will never understand your obsession with relying on witnesses when we have so much more reliable forms of evidence to tell us what happened.

I should have said z224 when we first see his hands and left shoulder. We can see his hands and body in z225 and we can see that the hands remain in the same position when we see that he is no longer up against the right side of the car and is obviously showing signs of reacting to his neck wound. He remains in that position when he brings his hands to his face. Here is the whole sequence:

Ok. We know you disagree with the HSCA photographic panel that JFK was showing a reaction to a severe external stimulus by z207 from a shot at z190. I am simply pointing out that the change begins at z193. Here is the entire sequence:
Not with JBC turned sharply right:

The sequence you posted shows that from Z189 until JFK goes behind the sign, the only thing he was doing was slowly and calmly lowering his right hand after waving to the few remaining spectators on that section of Elm St.

Finally, all I am saying is that one does not have to reject large bodies of witness evidence to reach the conclusion that all shots were fired from the SN.  The SBT is not only inconsistent with large bodies of evidence, it is not required to support the conclusion that Oswald fired all three shots. The rest of the evidence shows that.

It think it is hilarious that after telling us JBC only rotate his shoulders at most 30 degrees to the right you show a drawing that shows his shoulders turned about 75-80 degrees in order to avoid being hit by the bullet exiting JFK's throat. You also show him leaning way over to the side of the car. When you have to resort to such extreme exaggerations to make your theory work, doesn't that cause you to question the validity of your theory?

One should reject any large body of witnesses who give accounts that conflict with the Z-fillm.

I agree with the CTs on one point. Without the SBT, there had to be two shooters and a conspiracy. Fortunately we have the Z-film and other evidence that tells use positively the SBT is valid. I would go so far as to agree with Dale Myers when he said it isn't a single bullet theory, it is a single bullet fact.