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21
How did you establish that Givens account was fictional?

It really doesn't matter because this isn't a key piece of evidence. There is plenty of forensic evidence that establishes Oswald was the one firing the shots from the sniper's nest at 12:30. As Bugliosi pointed out, anyone who doesn't believe that is either unfamiliar with the evidence or a very silly person. Which camp do you fall in?

The point of this thread is to establish how Nutters such as yourself deal with this issue.
Do you accept Givens' account of returning to the 6th floor as laid out in the WC report?

BTW, any evidence that makes it into the conclusions of the WC report can be considered 'key'. It's not a matter of whether or not YOU think it's key evidence.
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JFK Assassination Discussion & Debate / Re: The First Shot
« Last post by Dan O'meara on Today at 11:16:34 AM »
I've read through the arguments for a first shot strike and I don't find them the least bit compelling. You can make an argument for just about any scenario you want depending on the witnesses you choose to believe. I choose to believe the witnesses who are corroborated by the best witness available, Zapruder's camera.
44 witnesses? Out of how many? There are many different versions of the shooting but there is only one correct one. I've weighed the evidence which convinces me there was a missed first shot. I find it far more likely that 44 people didn't recognize the first shot for what it was than that JBC and Bennett imagined hearing a shot that never happened, especially when we can see JBC doing exactly what he said he did in reaction to the first shot and that was several seconds before JFK and JBC were hit.
Your assumption and suspicion were the only arguments you gave for a missed 3rd shot. Where is your evidence of that?
If you don't want me to respond to your half-assed posts, don't make any.


I've read through the arguments for a first shot strike


Outline a single one of these arguments.
It's not that I totally don't believe you when you say you've read through the arguments...

I find it far more likely that 44 people didn't recognize the first shot for what it was than that JBC and Bennett imagined hearing a shot that never happened

It seems that every time you post something there is a misunderstanding or misrepresentation that needs to be cleared up.
It's not that I'm saying you're totally doing it on purpose...
Just to clarify - the 44 witnesses Pat Speer compiled were not referencing whether or not they recognised the first shot for what it was. They were describing JFK's reaction. I made this clear when I posted "Pat Speer compiled a list of 44 witnesses who report JFK reacting to the first shot as we see in the Z-film - hands flying up towards his throat, slumping to his left etc.

You make the point that you "choose to believe the witnesses who are corroborated by the best witness available, Zapruder's camera."
The reactions these witnesses describe are corroborated by the Z-film!

Unbelievably you say you find it far more likely these witnesses were mistaken "than that JBC and Bennett imagined hearing a shot that never happened".
According to JBC he never even heard the shot that hit him!
Are you not aware of this?
JBC reports that there was a "split second" between him hearing the first shot and feeling that he had been hit. He is reporting that there was a split second between the first two shots - do you accept this? Of course you do.
Do you believe the traumatised memory of a man who suffered a life-threatening injury and whose body went instantly into shock, is more reliable than 44 witnesses whose observations are corroborated by the Z-film? Of course you do.
 
23
One of the more blatant fabrications of the Warren Commission Sham was the introduction of Charles Givens' fictional account of going back up to the 6th floor and seeing Oswald coming from the southeast corner.
How do LNers deal with this fabrication? How do they explain it away?

And this was no trivial detail.
It was one of the key pieces of evidence the Sham offered up in the conclusions of its final report placing Oswald at the scene of the crime.


"Fingerprint and palmprint evidence establishes that Oswald handled two of the four cartons next to the window and also handled a paper bag which was found near the cartons. Oswald was seen in the vicinity of the southeast corner of the sixth floor approximately 35 minutes before the assassination and no one could be found who saw Oswald anywhere else in the building until after the shooting. An eyewitness to the shooting immediately provided a description of the man in the window which was similar to Oswald's actual appearance. This witness identified Oswald in a lineup as the man most nearly resembling the man he saw and later identified Oswald as the man he observed. Oswald's known actions in the building immediately after the assassination are consistent with his having been at the southeast corner window of the sixth floor at 12:30 p.m. On the basis of these findings the Commission has concluded that. Oswald, at the time of the assassination, was present at the window from which the shots were fired."
[WC Report pg156]

How did you establish that Givens account was fictional?

It really doesn't matter because this isn't a key piece of evidence. There is plenty of forensic evidence that establishes Oswald was the one firing the shots from the sniper's nest at 12:30. As Bugliosi pointed out, anyone who doesn't believe that is either unfamiliar with the evidence or a very silly person. Which camp do you fall in?
24
JFK Assassination Discussion & Debate / Re: The First Shot
« Last post by Dan O'meara on Today at 10:49:02 AM »
I told you he was a jerk.

Nobody is interested in your pillow talk Comrade Jerkov
25
One of the more blatant fabrications of the Warren Commission Sham was the introduction of Charles Givens' fictional account of going back up to the 6th floor and seeing Oswald coming from the southeast corner.
How do LNers deal with this fabrication? How do they explain it away?

And this was no trivial detail.
It was one of the key pieces of evidence the Sham offered up in the conclusions of its final report placing Oswald at the scene of the crime.


"Fingerprint and palmprint evidence establishes that Oswald handled two of the four cartons next to the window and also handled a paper bag which was found near the cartons. Oswald was seen in the vicinity of the southeast corner of the sixth floor approximately 35 minutes before the assassination and no one could be found who saw Oswald anywhere else in the building until after the shooting. An eyewitness to the shooting immediately provided a description of the man in the window which was similar to Oswald's actual appearance. This witness identified Oswald in a lineup as the man most nearly resembling the man he saw and later identified Oswald as the man he observed. Oswald's known actions in the building immediately after the assassination are consistent with his having been at the southeast corner window of the sixth floor at 12:30 p.m. On the basis of these findings the Commission has concluded that. Oswald, at the time of the assassination, was present at the window from which the shots were fired."
[WC Report pg156]




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                                                                          YOU TUBE

                  "Did The Umbrella Man Signal The Shot That Killed JFK?"    By - WW2 Mememto  (17:19)

            From 10:38 - 11:31  =  a panning sequence showing the Uncropped Bothun Photo. On the (L) it shows Motorcycle Officer Hargis riding away on his motorcycle. On the (R) it shows Motorcycle Officer Haygood just entering the photo. In between these 2 bookends, it shows the Newman family on the ground, Altgens walking DOWN the knoll toward Elm St, Wiegman filming Officer Haygood as he rides down Elm St, The Cuban and Umbrella Man sitting on the retaining wall, the Chism family beginning their sprint across the knoll, etc. This crystal clear image will assist you in your time stamping. Our Forum "photo gallery" also includes this Bothun Photo, but it is nowhere near as clear as this photo is displayed on YOU TUBE. And remember, the earlier a time stamp you apply to the Wiegman footage, the earlier you are also placing this Man walking down the sidewalk that runs from the Shelter to Elm St on the (E) side/TSBD side of the RL Thornton sign.
          The image of Wiegman running toward Zapruder is on the Bell Film BEFORE the still frame you posted.
          For the record, I do not believe that Wiegman was laying on the ground when he filmed the Hester's. Why would he lay down when filming? Do you know of any other time he laid down when filming that day? I also do Not believe that Wiegman ever climbed atop those steps. I believe Wiegman was Standing on the grass just in front of those steps when he filmed the Hester's. After filming the Hester's, Wiegman started moving (W) on the grass in the direction of Zapruder above and in front of him. What we are seeing on the Bell Film is Wiegman is FALLING. The Bell Film shows the Wiegman figure to be in the position of falling toward the ground. Who gets UP from the ground like we see Wiegman on the Bell Film? Nobody does. There are only 2 explanations for Wiegman's body position on the Bell Film still frame you posted. Either Wiegman is: (1) FALLING to the ground, (maybe he tripped?), or, (2) he is willfully DIVING to the ground. Wiegman did say he felt the "compression" of a bullet on his face during his segment on, "Unsolved History JFK, Death in Dealey Plaza" (2003).
          With respect to the Wiegman Film being deemed "filmed continuously" for 30 yrs, we really have no idea what was being viewed on the Wiegman Film during that time period. Dating back, on this Forum, there was a letter posted from Gary Mack directly addressing this "filmed continuously" issue. And remember, NBC has steadfastly REFUSED to release their Original Wiegman Film. Same goes for NBC and their Original Darnell Film.

                                                                      Your Questions

      (1) The Bell Film DOES SHOW Wiegman moving (W) toward Zapruder. Your posted Bell Film still frame is too late to show this.

      (2) As to estimating the time passage between the 2 images due to the "cut/jump", this is why I mentioned Wiegman being in the process of falling to the ground on the Bell Still Frame you posted. How long was Wiegman on the ground, before he got up and then ran down the Knoll to film the Newman Family? This is yet another variable that is Unknown.

     (3) Yes, I agree that Wiegman did move from filming the Hester's to filming the Newman's.

            That Uncropped Bothun Photo shows Officer Hargis riding away as we see Wiegman filming Officer Haygood entering the Bothun photo on the (R). Hargis gave WC Testimony that he left his motorcycle, crossed Elm St, went up to that "little wall", eyeballed the top of the Triple Underpass where he thought a shot came from,  moved to the light pole, eyeballed the TSBD, and then returned to his motorcycle on the other side of Elm St. How long do you believe it took Officer Hargis to do ALL of this? And, I thought we were seeing Officer Hargis still near his motorcycle on the early frames of the Wiegman Film that show the JFK Limo going under the Triple Underpass?

                                                           Thanks again for tackling this timeline issue.
                                 

   

The guy I've labelled Weigman in the Bell frames I posted is 100% Dave Weigman just after he has finished filming the Hesters. Below is a frame from Weigman's footage.The first thing to notice is how low down this shot is taken from. He is virtually on the same level as the grass. At the bottom of the frame is the concrete of the steps he is laying on.
Further proof it is Weigman is the angle of the shot in respect to the concrete pergola. The pergola structure has six columns at the front. At the time of the shooting the outward faces of two of the columns were in darkness and four of them in sunlight. In the Weigman frame below, the outward face of column A is in darkness and column B in light. Mrs Hesters head is in direct alignment with column A.



In the frame from Bell below I have labelled the same columns A and B. When we draw a line from Weigman to column A it passes through Mrs Hesters head. It is exactly the correct alignment.



I have proven that the figure in Bell is Weigman.
I have proven it with photographic evidence that cannot be disputed.
Can you post the timestamp from the Bell film you pointed me towards (JFK Theorist version) so I can see who you believe Weigman is because there is no-one running towards Zapruder in the Bell film and I can't figure out what you mean.
27
This from a guy who has offered no alternative explanation for how the Tague injury occurred. Why don't you give us an alternative theory wo we can compare it to the possibilities that it was caused by one of Oswald's shots. As is the custom for most CTs, you set the bar very high for the LNs and very low for yourself. We are expected to prove every last detail with 100% certainty while you are allowed to speculate while providing no evidence.
If you can, why don't you.

A number of plausible explanations have been offered for how a shot from Oswald's rifle could have continues down range and struck the curb near Tague. Posner has theorized the bullet hit a tree branch. I don't necessarily believe that but I can't logically refute it either. Others have suggested the bullet struck the traffic arm that the limo passed under. Again, not my theory but possible. I lean toward the first shot missing to the right of the limo, ricocheting off the pavement and continuing down range to toward Tague. I used a Google Earth view of Dealey Plaza and it shows a line from the sniper's nest to where Tague was standing passes through the right lane of Elm St. Still others believe that a lead fragment from the headshot passed over the windshield and continued down range toward Tague. Without knowing the exit velocity of those fragments, it's impossible to say whether or not that was possible.

Now let's see your explanations.


You are correct that  a 1st shot before Z224 to the right of the JFK limo, could strike the manhole cover.
However it would have to be high above JFKs head. So that suggests  an inadvertent unaimed shot fired as the TSBD shooter was in the act of adjusting the rifle on the boxes. It seems plausible enough to me but I’m having trouble dismissing the majority witness hearing the 1….2.3 pattern, and Tague seemly more inclined That it was 2nd or 3rd shot.

Seems to me improbable that an MC bullet would break apart after hitting the manhole cover such that a fragment of lead  completely separated from the copper jacket and flew across to the curb, while the remainder of the bullet still in the copper  jacket buried into the grass. Maybe an experiment  is necessary to see if it could happen this way.

Similarly, if no copper trace element was found in the curb and only lead then does not that rule out a 1st missed shot before Z224? Unless…Maybe it hit the road and ricocheting?  :-\  Hmm…possible but It would be almost the same result:a portion of lead separated completely from the copper jacket and flew to the curb, while the Rest of the bullet with copper went into the grass ( or where?)

But if it was the TSBD shooters MC bullet surely they should have found the builet if it buried in the grass. There is no reason not to document that if it was found (unless it was Not an MC bullet?)

So this  leaves the Z313 shot breaking up such that a lead fragment separated  completely and flew to  hit the curb. However if it got over the windshield  then as Andrew Mason noted ( if his math is correct)that the fragment would only be traveling approx 200 ft/ sec ( the parabolic arc physics equation).

So… the only  other possibility is a Z313 a fragment that went just to the left side of Greers head such that the parabolic arc is flattened by not having to go over the windshield, thus the fragment velocity could be much greater, say more like 1000 ft/ sec which with be enough  force of  impact on the curb to explode some  particles of concrete.

28
It was John McCain who lost.  Badly. His campaign was a complete disaster.  Anyone involved with that campaign should take up a career other than politics.   Trump won twice with the media and political establishment of both parties doing everything possible to defeat him.  No other person in our lifetime has been able to break the stranglehold that this group has on power.  It's likely no one will do so again.  It's an absolute miracle that Trump won with all those forces against him.  Sparing us a Hillary and Kamala administration.  Disasters that would have brought the country to ruin.

McCain was toast when he turned on Bill Cunningham at that rally. Limbaugh and the rest of talk radio bailed, and it was over with a thud.
29
Had it not been for covid and all the bogus mail in ballots Trump would have won easily.
30
JFK Assassination Discussion & Debate / Re: The smell of gunpowder
« Last post by Benjamin Cole on Today at 01:19:50 AM »
JC-

Yes, you are correct about AI.

In this case, AI-Gemini accurately summarized the historical record on LBJ instructions to Warren and Russell.

You may regard my human intelligence with low regard, and have expressed as much many times, but I used human intelligence to monitor the AI intelligence results.

I regard you as a smart guy, who happens to have different views on the JFKA than me.



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