JFK Assassination Forum

To believe that the bag found on the 6th floor was the one Oswald carried to the TSBD with a rifle in it on Friday morning, you have to believe;

- There was indeed a rifle stored in Ruth Paine's garage on 11/21/63

That's easy. Will these get harder as we go?

- Oswald figured he needed a paper bag despite the fact that he had far less conspicious duffel bags at Ruth Paine's garage.

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Why would you second guess Oswald's successful choice?
- Oswald made the bag at the wrapping department of the TSBD on Thursday afternoon without being seen or being missed from his job on the 6th floor.

It could have been anytime that week but Thursday seems the most likely. He could have made it during the lunch break or any time he knew the wrapping station would be unattended.

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- Then he folded the bag and concealed it on his person in such a way that Frazier did not see it.

The bag had creases in it so we know it was folded. It could easily have been tucked in his jacket without Frazier seeing it. Had it been discovered, he could have just told Frazier it was for the curtain rods he was going to get.

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- Then he took it to Ruth Paine's house and hid it there until the next.

I'm guessing you meant to say until the next morning. We don't know what time he put the rifle in the bag but if it was me, I wouldn't have waited until the last minute. I would have done it the night before after everyone went to bed.

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- At some point in time he dismantled the rifle, without anybody noticing, and put the individual pieces in the bag which he now had unfolded. And all that without leaving even one scratch on the inside of the bag.

None of that would have been difficult

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- Then he carried the bag to Frazier's car and placed it on the back seat.

Yup.

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-  Upon arrival at the TSBD car park, he picked up the package and placed it in the cup of his hand and under his armpit. It was at this time when he left one single parcial print on the package.

It's never been established the top of the bag was tucked under his armpit.

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- He then took it up to the 6th floor, hid it there somewhere, until he needed the rifle. He then took out the pieces of the weapon and put it together again.
- After that he did not decide to dispose of the bag No, instead he folded it up and allegedly left it in the corner of the sniper's nest.

So?

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All that with leaving only one partial print! Go figure.

But there is more;

On Friday evening Detective R.D. Lewis ran a polygraph of Buell Wesley Frazier and found he was being truthful. While being polygraphed Frazier was shown the 6th floor bag and instantly denied it was the bag he had seen Oswald carry, which he described as a crickly brown paper sack. In his FD 302, FBI Vincent E. Drain writes, on 11/29/63, that the DPD is of the opinion that the 6th floor bag was used by Oswald to carry the rifle in. Drain concludes that the paper referred by Lewis is not a gun case at all!

A polygraph can indicate if a person is saying something he knows to be untrue. It measures stress through blood pressure, breathing rate, and a galvanic skit response. If he person believes he is telling the truth, even if he is wrong, there's no reason to think he will show stress.

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So, you also have to believe that Frazier somehow managed to fool the polygraph

See above. For Frazier to pass the polygraph, he only had to fool himself which he apparently did.
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 and went against the wishes of Day and Fritz to identify the heavy duty paper bag. Not only did he do so while he was still considered to be a suspect but also had no reason to lie about the bag he had seen. At that point in time Frazier wouldn't even be able to know what the significance of the paper bag would be in the future.

Exactly which is why we wouldn't expect Frazier to show any stress if he BELIEVED he was telling the truth.

I took a polygraph as a condition for employment once. I was asked a number of mundane questions to establish a baseline for my anxiety level. A polygraph shows spikes in the stress level when a person knowingly lies.

Oh, btw, according to the same report by Drain, Lt Day said that the paper sack of the type described by Frazier was not recovered by the Police Department. It's possible, but improbable, that it was recovered by the Homicide Bureau. If so, they do not know anything about it in the Crime Laboratory of the Dallas Police Department. In other words, Day hasn't got a clue what happened or could have happend to the (how Frazier described it, according to Day) "thin, flimsy, sack like the one purchased in a dime store"

Still relying on Frazier to establish the characteristics of a bag he only glance at.

Now, I would love to read the LN explanation(s) for the above.

What's there to explain? Nothing on your list seems the least bit improbable.

How did Oswald handle that paper bag as described and manage to only leave on partial print?
And how did Frazier manage to fool the polygraph and why would he lie (the polygraph said he told the truth) about the bag he had seen?

Whoever handled that makeshift bag managed to do so while only puting a partial finger print and palm print on the bag. Why couldn't that someone have been the guy who left the prints.

Again, the police tapes (combined with the actions of witnesses like Mary Wright, Barbara Davis and L.J. Lewis, who contacted the police shortly after the shooting) tell us that Markham was NOT going to arrive at Patton and Jefferson at 1:15.  She was approaching Patton and Tenth at 1:15.


You may be thinking of Fred Litwin's "On The Trail Of Delusion" podcast.  I was not responsible for the graphics, though I don't have a problem with them.

You asked for my opinion and then ridicule me by calling it "self-serving speculation".  You really are a dickhead, aren't ya?


Clearly YOU aren't aware that Jack Tatum would be approaching the intersection of Tenth & Patton while Tippit and his killer were talking.  Markham described "traffic was coming".  She didn't say a police car was coming.  Or... are we now accepting everything the FBI (in this case, Barrett) says is 100% true?  If that's the case, then the bag was indeed three feet long by six inches wide, according to Linnie Mae Randle (per Bookhout).

Markham tells us no such thing.  You're putting words into her mouth.  That's bad form.

Again, the police tapes (combined with the actions of witnesses like Mary Wright, Barbara Davis and L.J. Lewis, who contacted the police shortly after the shooting) tell us that Markham was NOT going to arrive at Patton and Jefferson at 1:15.  She was approaching Patton and Tenth at 1:15.

Rely on bad evidence and get bad results.

You may be thinking of Fred Litwin's "On The Trail Of Delusion" podcast.  I was not responsible for the graphics, though I don't have a problem with them.

Could be. No surpise that you don't have a problem with them. You won't have a problem with them if they showed Markham having a barbeque at that intersection.

You asked for my opinion and then ridicule me by calling it "self-serving speculation".  You really are a dickhead, aren't ya?

Said one dickhead to another. I asked you because there was a possibility you might come up with something credible. All I got was the same BS as per usual.

When you start talking about how you can imagine something; you are by definition speculating. Easy enough to understand!

Clearly YOU aren't aware that Jack Tatum would be approaching the intersection of Tenth & Patton while Tippit and his killer were talking.  Markham described "traffic was coming".  She didn't say a police car was coming.  Or... are we now accepting everything the FBI (in this case, Barrett) says is 100% true?  If that's the case, then the bag was indeed three feet long by six inches wide, according to Linnie Mae Randle (per Bookhout).

So, the FBI only tells the truth when you need them to? In my opinion no FD 302 is evidence of anything. It is my personal opinion that we would have been far better off without them as they only muddy the waters. Plain and simple. The point was that Markham told Bookhout that she hoped to catch a bas at about 1:15 PM and she only stopped because of a police car and cars passing by. She basically said the same thing in her WC testimony, athough she didn't mention the police car. If you think Bookhout lied about that, be my guest.

I'm very much aware of Jack Tatum coming up, but he didn't pass the intersection until after the shots, so he would have far enough away to give Markham time to pass the street. You make it out as a highway with loads of cars passing by. It wasn't and still isn't.

Markham tells us no such thing.  You're putting words into her mouth.  That's bad form.

She didn't? HAHAHAHAHA. Are you playing your typical semantics game again? Talk about utter dishonesty!

Markham never said that she took her regular bus at 1:15 PM? Are you for real?

Let me guess, normally Markham "usually" get's her bus at 1:15 PM (which would either be a delayed 1:12 or the 1:22) but on that day she figured she would leave 9th street later and just risk missing her usual bus. Oh well, anything to keep your fairytale alive, I suppose.

No.

To get to her bus stop "some three minutes earlier" than the time the bus was due by would mean she would get to the bus stop at around 1:09 (for the 1:12 bus) or 1:19 (for the 1:22 bus).

That assumes that Markham knew the official timetable and that the busses would always run on time. The reality is that Markham, in her mind, needed to be at the bus stop at 1:15 to get her bus!

Mr. BALL. You know what time you usually get your bus, don't you?
Mrs. MARKHAM. 1:15.

Busses seldom run exactly on time, so trying to argue that they did in this instance is disingenuous. Markham, in her mind, clearly needed to be at the bus stop every day at 1:15 and she would get on the first bus on her route that came along. That's how it works in the real world.

Nice try, but that's not what is shown in a video you recently took part in, which showed a map with Markham being stationary for some time at 10th and Patton.
I just can't remember which video that was, but perhaps you know. Beyond that, you can imagine it all you want, it's still self-serving speculation.

Markham tells a different story;

In her statement to FBI Agent Robert Barrett on 3/16/64 she said "she had hoped to catch a bus at about 1:15 PM" According to Barrett "She stopped at this intersection in order to allow a police squad car and some other cars pass by.

Mr. BALL. You know what time you usually get your bus, don't you?
Mrs. MARKHAM. 1:15.
Mr. BALL. So it was before 1:15?
Mrs. MARKHAM. Yes, it was.
Mr. BALL. When you came to the corner of Patton and 10th Street--first of all, what side of the street were you walking on?
Mrs. MARKHAM. Now you have got me mixed up on all my streets. I was on the opposite of where this man was.
Mr. BALL. Well, you were walking along the street--
Mrs. MARKHAM. On the street.
Mr. BALL. On Patton, you were going toward Jefferson?
Mrs. MARKHAM. Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. And you were on the right- or left-hand side of the street as you were walking south?
Mrs. MARKHAM. That would be on the left.
Mr. BALL. Your right.
Mrs. MARKHAM. Yes, it would be right.
Mr. BALL. Right-hand side, wouldn't it? When you came to the corner did you have to stop before you crossed 10th Street?
Mrs. MARKHAM. Yes, I did.
Mr. BALL. Why?
Mrs. MARKHAM. On account the traffic was coming.
Mr. BALL. And you stopped there on the corner?
Mrs. MARKHAM. Yes, sir.

If Markham wasn't stopped at the intersection by Tippit's cruiser passing by, she would have had no plausible reason for stopping. She was on her way to catch her usual bus and only had minutes to spare. That's not a moment for sightseeing!

By the time she actually gets to the corner, Tippit is pulling over or has just pulled over.  She sees the guy who was walking then walk over to the passenger side of the car and watched as the conversation between the two takes place.  Because of this, instead of continuing to walk on her merry way, she stands there at the corner wondering why a police officer in his squad car has pulled alongside a guy who was walking on the sidewalk.

And risk missing her usual bus? For a police officer calling a civilian and having a conversation with him? Really?

We can't assume that Markham was trying to catch a bus at 1:15.  There's no reason to assume that, especially since we know there was no 1:15 bus.

We don't have to assume it. Markham herself told us!

By the way, my opinion is that the shooting occurred around 1:15:30(ish).

So now you disagree with Dale Myers?

That assumes that Markham knew the official timetable and that the busses would always run on time. The reality is that Markham, in her mind, needed to be at the bus stop at 1:15 to get her bus!

Mr. BALL. You know what time you usually get your bus, don't you?
Mrs. MARKHAM. 1:15.

Busses seldom run exactly on time, so trying to argue that they did in this instance is disingenuous. Markham, in her mind, clearly needed to be at the bus stop every day at 1:15 and she would get on the first bus on her route that came along. That's how it works in the real world.

Again, the police tapes (combined with the actions of witnesses like Mary Wright, Barbara Davis and L.J. Lewis, who contacted the police shortly after the shooting) tell us that Markham was NOT going to arrive at Patton and Jefferson at 1:15.  She was approaching Patton and Tenth at 1:15.

Nice try, but that's not what is shown in a video you recently took part in, which showed a map with Markham being stationary for some time at 10th and Patton.
I just can't remember which video that was, but perhaps you know. Beyond that, you can imagine it all you want, it's still self-serving speculation.

You may be thinking of Fred Litwin's "On The Trail Of Delusion" podcast.  I was not responsible for the graphics, though I don't have a problem with them.

You asked for my opinion and then ridicule me by calling it "self-serving speculation".  You really are a dickhead, aren't ya?

Markham tells a different story;

In her statement to FBI Agent Robert Barrett on 3/16/64 she said "she had hoped to catch a bus at about 1:15 PM" According to Barrett "She stopped at this intersection in order to allow a police squad car and some other cars pass by.

Mr. BALL. You know what time you usually get your bus, don't you?
Mrs. MARKHAM. 1:15.
Mr. BALL. So it was before 1:15?
Mrs. MARKHAM. Yes, it was.
Mr. BALL. When you came to the corner of Patton and 10th Street--first of all, what side of the street were you walking on?
Mrs. MARKHAM. Now you have got me mixed up on all my streets. I was on the opposite of where this man was.
Mr. BALL. Well, you were walking along the street--
Mrs. MARKHAM. On the street.
Mr. BALL. On Patton, you were going toward Jefferson?
Mrs. MARKHAM. Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. And you were on the right- or left-hand side of the street as you were walking south?
Mrs. MARKHAM. That would be on the left.
Mr. BALL. Your right.
Mrs. MARKHAM. Yes, it would be right.
Mr. BALL. Right-hand side, wouldn't it? When you came to the corner did you have to stop before you crossed 10th Street?
Mrs. MARKHAM. Yes, I did.
Mr. BALL. Why?
Mrs. MARKHAM. On account the traffic was coming.
Mr. BALL. And you stopped there on the corner?
Mrs. MARKHAM. Yes, sir.

If Markham wasn't stopped at the intersection by Tippit's cruiser passing by, she would have had no plausible reason for stopping. She was on her way to catch her usual bus and only had minutes to spare. That's not a moment for sightseeing!

Clearly YOU aren't aware that Jack Tatum would be approaching the intersection of Tenth & Patton while Tippit and his killer were talking.  Markham described "traffic was coming".  She didn't say a police car was coming.  Or... are we now accepting everything the FBI (in this case, Barrett) says is 100% true?  If that's the case, then the bag was indeed three feet long by six inches wide, according to Linnie Mae Randle (per Bookhout).

We don't have to assume it. Markham herself told us!

Markham tells us no such thing.  You're putting words into her mouth.  That's bad form.

To believe that the bag found on the 6th floor was the one Oswald carried to the TSBD with a rifle in it on Friday morning, you have to believe;

- There was indeed a rifle stored in Ruth Paine's garage on 11/21/63
- Oswald figured he needed a paper bag despite the fact that he had far less conspicious duffel bags at Ruth Paine's garage.
- Oswald made the bag at the wrapping department of the TSBD on Thursday afternoon without being seen or being missed from his job on the 6th floor.
- Then he folded the bag and concealed it on his person in such a way that Frazier did not see it.
- Then he took it to Ruth Paine's house and hid it there until the next.
- At some point in time he dismantled the rifle, without anybody noticing, and put the individual pieces in the bag which he now had unfolded. And all that without leaving even one scratch on the inside of the bag.
- Then he carried the bag to Frazier's car and placed it on the back seat.
-  Upon arrival at the TSBD car park, he picked up the package and placed it in the cup of his hand and under his armpit. It was at this time when he left one single parcial print on the package.
- He then took it up to the 6th floor, hid it there somewhere, until he needed the rifle. He then took out the pieces of the weapon and put it together again.
- After that he did not decide to dispose of the bag No, instead he folded it up and allegedly left it in the corner of the sniper's nest.

All that with leaving only one partial print! Go figure.

But there is more;

On Friday evening Detective R.D. Lewis ran a polygraph of Buell Wesley Frazier and found he was being truthful. While being polygraphed Frazier was shown the 6th floor bag and instantly denied it was the bag he had seen Oswald carry, which he described as a crickly brown paper sack. In his FD 302, FBI Vincent E. Drain writes, on 11/29/63, that the DPD is of the opinion that the 6th floor bag was used by Oswald to carry the rifle in. Drain concludes that the paper referred by Lewis is not a gun case at all!

So, you also have to believe that Frazier somehow managed to fool the polygraph and went against the wishes of Day and Fritz to identify the heavy duty paper bag. Not only did he do so while he was still considered to be a suspect but also had no reason to lie about the bag he had seen. At that point in time Frazier wouldn't even be able to know what the significance of the paper bag would be in the future.

Oh, btw, according to the same report by Drain, Lt Day said that the paper sack of the type described by Frazier was not recovered by the Police Department. It's possible, but improbable, that it was recovered by the Homicide Bureau. If so, they do not know anything about it in the Crime Laboratory of the Dallas Police Department. In other words, Day hasn't got a clue what happened or could have happend to the (how Frazier described it, according to Day) "thin, flimsy, sack like the one purchased in a dime store"

Now, I would love to read the LN explanation(s) for the above.


How did Oswald handle that paper bag as described and manage to only leave on partial print?
And how did Frazier manage to fool the polygraph and why would he lie (the polygraph said he told the truth) about the bag he had seen?

I think it stands for New Frontier Video, a company created by Groden back in the day.

Thanks