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21
JFK Assassination Plus General Discussion And Debate / Re: Gov. John Connally Grips His White Stetson Hat at Z-272
« Last post by Tom Graves on Today at 06:08:43 AM »
Quote from: Zeon Mason on Today at 06:04:49 AM
[quote author=Zeon Mason link=topic=4893.msg177294#msg177294 date=


Still looks to me like JCs face is indicating he felt at the very least the impact of a bullet about 0.5 sec after S224.

If instead of at Z224  JC is getting hit somewhere between  Z 270-Z280, by a 2nd bullet traveling 2000ft/sec hit his upper body mass , shoujd there not be be some indication of some moment of his upper body forwards?

Since I’ve seen no alternative drawing to the one that JohnM posted to explain the wrist wound, I have to remain doubtful about a shot at Z270-z280 where the bullet exits JCs chest and  goes thru the top of his right hand wrist bone ,  exits the bottom of palm, and misses the hat. The trajectory line from TSBD is the question if it can be aligned with the entry and exit wound line thru JCs upper body in some position between Z270-z280.

The wrist bone wound IDK if it’s reasonable to  suggest that it could have been caused from a fragment from Z 313, because I can’t really tell where JC’s right hand is at the Z313 shot.

If the bullet that stuck JBC in the back was fired from Oswald's Carcano from the Sniper's Nest, would it, having already passed through JFK's upper back / lower neck, have been travelling 2000 fps when it struck JBC in the back?
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JFK Assassination Plus General Discussion And Debate / Re: Gov. John Connally Grips His White Stetson Hat at Z-272
« Last post by Zeon Mason on Today at 06:04:49 AM »
Quote from: Zeon Mason link=topic=4893.msg177294#msg177294 date=
[/quote

Still looks to me like JCs face is indicating he felt at the very least the impact of a bullet about 0.5 sec after S224.

If instead of at Z224  JC is getting hit somewhere between  Z 270-Z280, by a 2nd bullet traveling 2000ft/sec hit his upper body mass , shoujd there not be be some indication of some moment of his upper body forwards?

Since I’ve seen no alternative drawing to the one that JohnM posted to explain the wrist wound, I have to remain doubtful about a shot at Z270-z280 where the bullet exits JCs chest and  goes thru the top of his right hand wrist bone ,  exits the bottom of palm, and misses the hat. The trajectory line from TSBD is the question if it can be aligned with the entry and exit wound line thru JCs upper body in some position between Z270-z280.

The wrist bone wound IDK if it’s reasonable to  suggest that it could have been caused from a fragment from Z 313, because I can’t really tell where JC’s right hand is at the Z313 shot.

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JFK Assassination Plus General Discussion And Debate / Re: Gov. John Connally Grips His White Stetson Hat at Z-272
« Last post by Tom Graves on Today at 04:52:09 AM »
Quote from: Andrew Mason on Today at 03:36:54 AM
There were only four witnesses who thought there were four shots, according to the HSCA compilation of 178 witnesses.

ME: Is this statement correct: "There were only four witnesses who thought there were four shots, according to the HSCA compilation of 178 witnesses."?

GROK: No, the statement is not accurate. According to the HSCA's own compilation and analysis of 178 Dealey Plaza earwitness reports (in Volume VIII, Acoustics Study – Analysis of Earwitness Reports), six witnesses reported exactly four shots, not four.

historymatters.com

Breakdown from the HSCA tabulation:

Exactly 3 shots: 132 (about 74%).
Exactly 2 shots: 17.
2 or 3 shots: 7.
Exactly 4 shots: 6.
Unsure: 9.
Other (1, 4-5, 5, 6, or 8 shots): 7 additional.

historymatters.com

This totals the 178 witnesses. The mean number reported was ~3. The "only four" claim appears to be a minor error or misstatement; the document clearly lists six for exactly four.

historymatters.com

Context

The HSCA (and Warren Commission) noted these discrepancies but attributed most of them to Dealey Plaza's acoustics (echoes/reverberations), surprise/startle effect, and the mix of muzzle blasts, shock waves, and possible impacts—rather than additional gunfire. The vast majority aligned on three shots, often with the last two closer together, matching other evidence. A small number reporting more (or fewer) does not undermine the overall pattern.

spmlaw.ca

The posted claim understates the count slightly but is close; the precise HSCA figure for exactly four is six. For the primary source, see HSCA Volume VIII (especially the earwitness analysis section around the relevant tables).

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JFK Assassination Plus General Discussion And Debate / Re: Gov. John Connally Grips His White Stetson Hat at Z-272
« Last post by Andrew Mason on Today at 03:36:54 AM »
Quote from: Tom Graves on Today at 02:50:14 AM
How else are we to explain why several witnesses reported hearing four or more shots, and why so many people disagreed about where they had come from?
Maybe they weren’t counting.  There were only four witnesses who thought there were four shots, according to the HSCA compilation of 178 witnesses.. And they weren’t very convincing. For example there is Robert Edwards (6 H 205):

Mr. BELIN. How many shots did you hear, if you remember?
Mr. EDWARDS. Well, I heard one more then than was fired, I believe.
Mr. BELIN. You mean you said on the affidavit you heard four shots?
Mr. EDWARDS. I still right now don’t know how many was fired. If I said four, then I thought I heard four.

 In his affidavit sworn Nov. 22, 1963, 24 H 207, Edwards said he thought there were four shots. In his a December 2, 1963 interview with the FBI he is reported to have said he heard three or four shots. He was standing with his friend Robert Fischer who heard only three shots.

Quote
Regardless, she was standing about 30 feet away -- in the street in front of the TSBD entrance -- and had an excellent view down Elm Street.
[Edit]Your reference to Lawrence/Donaldson made me do some further checking.  I have to apologize for thinking that Holland’s witness Patricia Ann Donaldson was the same person as the witness Ann Donaldson standing with Mary Woodward .  Holland’s witness was Patricia Ann Lawrence in 1963 and she was standing in front of the TSBD.  Donaldson must be her later married name.  I thought there couldn’t be two different people with the names “Ann” and “Donaldson” but apparently there were! 

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JFK Assassination Plus General Discussion And Debate / Re: Interview With JFK Assassination Witness Mary Lea Williams In Dealey Plaza
« Last post by John Mytton on Today at 03:31:31 AM »
Quote from: Royell Storing on Yesterday at 07:26:42 PM
     JOHN-  You mention there being some sort of Zapruder "sight" issue. From that elevated Perch, Zapruder and Sitzman could see the JFK Motorcade turning onto Houston, traveling down Houston St, and then turning onto Elm St. So, an alleged Zapruder "sight" issue did not exist. Dan Rather told the World that the Zapruder Film he viewed the weekend of the assassination showed the JFK Limo turning onto Elm St. And Rather reported this several times. That makes Rather's reporting Not a simple slip-of-the-tongue. Rather reported what he viewed on that Z Film and he did so several times.

Zapruder at first filmed over 7 seconds of essentially nothing, just the motorbikes, then he quickly shut off his camera and waited till he saw and confirmed he actually had Kennedy's Limo in his viewfinder.
As for seeing what was on Houston it seems from the first motorcycle footage that Zapruder wasn't fully aware of what was happening on Houston.
Then when we first see the Limo in Z133, the cars at this point on Houston were barely visible behind the crowd.



And as for Dan Rather, he embellishes what he saw on multiple occasions like describing Connally reaching back, something not seen. He was a reporter and is in his mind, adding detail to better describe what was happening and unlike us who have seen the Zapruder film a bazillion times and have studied and pondered every relevant frame, Dan Rather never had that opportunity. Similar to the eyewitnesses who said the Limo stopped or slowed, it either did one or the other, it couldn't do both!   




JohnM
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JFK Assassination Plus General Discussion And Debate / Re: Three evenly spaced shots, or "bang . . . . . . . . bang - bang"?
« Last post by Tom Graves on Today at 03:30:25 AM »
Quote from: Benjamin Cole on Today at 03:29:24 AM
In his first statement, and most contemporaneous, Amos Euins said he thought the 11/22 shots had been fired so quickly he suspected an automatic rifle.

Wowie zowie!

Case Closed!

(LOL)
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JFK Assassination Plus General Discussion And Debate / Re: Three evenly spaced shots, or "bang . . . . . . . . bang - bang"?
« Last post by Benjamin Cole on Today at 03:29:24 AM »
In his first statement, and most contemporaneous, Amos Euins said he thought the 11/22 shots had been fired so quickly he suspected an automatic rifle.



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JFK Assassination Plus General Discussion And Debate / Re: Three evenly spaced shots, or "bang . . . . . . . . bang - bang"?
« Last post by Tom Graves on Today at 03:27:20 AM »
Quote from: Benjamin Cole on Today at 01:58:59 AM
Most earwitnesses heard three shots.

This does not preclude near-simultaneous shots heard by most witnesses as one shot, or the use of a silencer, meaning there were more than three shots.

Most witnesses place the second and third shots as close together.

Secret Service man Kellerman, in the JFK limo, said the the last two shots came in a "flurry" and Gov JBC, before the WC and the HSCA, said the shots arrived in the cab of the limo as if from an "automatic" rifle.

I thought JBC had meant a "semi-automatic," when he testified by the WC, but he repeated his word "automatic" before the HSCA. So JBC says the shots were fired so rapidly he suspected an automatic rifle.

Kellerman, Weitzman and JBC were all knowledgable about weapons and gunfire.

If witnesses didn't "register" the first (missing everything) shot at hypothetical Z-124 (half-a-second before Zapruder resumed filming at Z-133), but did "register" the second shot at approximately Z-222 and also heard the Z-313 shot and its shot-like echo, then it's understandable that they would mistakenly say the shots were "bang . . . . .  bang-bang."
29
JFK Assassination Plus General Discussion And Debate / Re: Gov. John Connally Grips His White Stetson Hat at Z-272
« Last post by Tom Graves on Today at 02:50:14 AM »
Quote from: Andrew Mason on Today at 02:19:43 AM
No one said there were distinct echoes.

How else are we to explain why several witnesses reported hearing four or more shots, and why so many people disagreed about where they had come from?

Quote
We know Lawrence / Donaldson wasn’t standing anywhere near where she was in "The Lost Bullet."

Regardless, she was standing about 30 feet away -- in the street in front of the TSBD entrance -- and had an excellent view down Elm Street.

Quote
So, I am not sure how you conclude that she got the position of the limo at the time of the first shot right.

I said basically right, i.e., that the limo had, shortly before the first shot, straightened out on Elm Street.
30
JFK Assassination Plus General Discussion And Debate / Re: That Is Not Officer Haygood = Conspiracy! Prove Me Wrong Challenge
« Last post by Robin Unger on Today at 02:48:01 AM »
Buddy Walthers seen in this Murray photo, the TSBD clock shows 12:40 pm

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