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21
MTG:

Thanks for your comments.

As I understand Russo, he thinks the Cubans encouraged LHO to assassinate JFK.

Russo stops short of saying, "I have evidence of Cuban intel on-the-ground cooperation with LHO on 11.22."

In fact, I have no such evidence either.

What I have is my layman's review of the Z-film, showing JFK shot at ~Z-222, JBC at ~Z-295 and JFK at Z-313. So I contend a lone gunsel armed with a single-shot-per-bolt-action rifle could not have perped that JFKA alone.

I agree with you, the mostly likely jFKA co-conspirators are Cubans, whether Alpha-66 or G2/DGI, or double agents.

22
What vast bodies of evidence?  :D
23
Hmmm ... when you said you "completely disagree with almost all of my posts" I wondered if you might have me confused with someone else. My posts are so all over the map, LN-wise and CT-wise, that it would be difficult to strongly disagree with almost all of them.

Now I wonder if you have Jean Davison confused with someone else. I did both Google and Ed Forum searches and could not find anything substantiating what you describe as her views about RFK and Dulles.

In fact, the only thing I really found was a post by you on this very forum from 2023 in which you quoted a post by Jean in the comments section at JFK Facts as follows:

JEAN DAVISON
APRIL 5, 2016 AT 11:17 PM
“Anyone who actually believes that the Kennedy’s and Dulles held each other in high regard is mortally naïve or utterly disingenuous.”


Lance, please accept my sincere apology. I'm aware my vision deteriorated but I've thought that my mind and memory have not also noticeably degraded.
I try to allow for the expectation that the person exhibiting such symptoms is always the last to know. I don't know how my post ended up worded that way.
I was pleased to log in here yesterday and find that you had decided to participate here. I intended my post to read that I disagreed with most of what I quoted
from your post, certainly not with almost everything you post generally.

Anyway, I believe Jean Davis was quoting what I posted about the post JFKA relations between Dulles and since I remain confident I accurately recall her opinion
and took the counter argument of hers. Her opinion had taken me quite by surprise,

Quote
https://web.archive.org/web/20181226165123/https://jfkfacts.org/devils-chessboard-today/#comment-867706#comment-867706
(Scroll down....)
Jean Davison
April 5, 2016 at 11:17 pm
“Anyone who actually believes that the Kennedy’s and Dulles held each other in high regard is mortally naïve or utterly disingenuous.”

QUOTE:

“Allen Dulles handled himself awfully well, with a great deal of dignity,” Robert Kennedy said of the period after the Bay of Pigs, “and never tried to shift the blame. The President was very fond of him, as I was.”

UNQUOTE
–Schlesinger, “Robert Kennedy and His Times, p. 459

https://books.google.com/books?id=5L-EeG9djO4C&pg=PA459&lpg=PA459&dq=dulles+%22handled+himself+awfully+well%22+dignity&source=bl&ots=_I7BoSypjI&sig=tZ9sHF_C6D8E2dgWeXBdHwj9-iE&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwi1id-e3PfLAhVB72MKHYNUBfwQ6AEIJjAC#v=onepage&q=dulles%20%22handled%20himself%20awfully%20well%22%20dignity&f=false

According to several writers, following the Bay of Pigs, Kennedy told Dulles, “Under a parliamentary system of government, it is I who would be leaving. But under our system, it is you who must go.”

http://www.newsweek.com/bay-pigs-newly-revealed-cia-documents-expose-blunders-67275

Tom S.
April 6, 2016 at 12:14 am
Jean,
You have not convinced me that even you believe JFK held Dulles in high regard, or that he was fond of Dulles.

https://books.google.com/books?id=vf9ZJx8WkjQC&printsec=frontcover&dq=%22Legacy+of+Ashes%22&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjrt8X0j_nLAhWK2SYKHQw0CqkQ6AEIKjAB#v=onepage&q=sexual%20dalliances&f=false



Photon
April 6, 2016 at 6:53 am
How did Kennedy not know that Eisenhower didn’t approve an invasion of Cuba? It didn’t happen while he was in office. He could not have given an order to do so when he was no longer Commander in Chief. It is really a pointless statement attempting to divert a President’s responsibility to know the facts before making a decision to somebody else.
It leads me to question the veracity of the author.

Jean Davison
April 6, 2016 at 10:48 am
Tom,

Who do you think is lying, Schlesinger or RFK?

If there’s evidence that the Kennedys didn’t hold the opinion about Dulles expressed in that quote, what is it? I’m certainly open to believing it, if you can show me.

The author you quoted didn’t present any evidence that I see when he made the claim about what Joe Kennedy supposedly told his son. Is there any?

I’m not naïve enough to accept any writer’s assertion as fact without seeing what it’s based on.

Tom S.
April 6, 2016 at 2:01 pm
Jean,
You have a conflict of interests. You want to keep your book relevant. You cannot have certain details be of
any consequence, just as DiEugenio cannot have the relatives of Garrison’s wife being the principle named CIA saboteurs of Garrison and his investigation, matter in the least. For both of you authors, your reactions are reflexive and quite understandable. It is reasonable not to accept what you keep defending,
warm relations and mutual admiration between Allen Dulles and the Kennedy brothers.

https://books.google.com/books?id=KUX-Dk6esuUC&dq=editions%3AISBN0517098644&focus=searchwithinvolume&q=stripped+retirement


BTW, I think the more we actually know, the more we have to take what we think we know with a grain of salt. We have to embrace less, admitting to ourselves that it is all quite complicated.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Afsaneh_Mashayekhi_Beschloss#Education
….Current activities

Beschloss is chairman of the Investment Committee of the Ford Foundation and is on the Investment Committee of the Rockefeller Brothers Fund. She is a member of the board of trustees of the Colonial Williamsburg Foundation, the Ford Foundation, and the Urban Institute.[5] She advises international pension funds and central banks and has written a number of journal articles and books.
Personal life
Beschloss is married to presidential historian Michael Beschloss.

http://www.breitbart.com/big-government/2012/01/31/its-father-versus-son-as-morris-beschloss-declares-george-soros-the-most-dangerous-man-in-america/
It’s Father Versus Son as Morris Beschloss Declares George Soros ‘The Most Dangerous Man in America’
…..Afsaneh and Michael Beschloss

We then began to talk about the self-designated, progressive “media watchdog group” Media Matters for America. Michael Beschloss (the son) is married to Iranian born Afsaneh Mashayekhi Beschloss. She has well-documented, strong ties to Democrats and George Soros-backed groups, including Media Matters….

Willy Whitten
April 6, 2016 at 1:43 pm
Again Jean, nobody has to be lying when it comes to the decorum of statesmanlike speech. It is political language Jean, empty of true meaning, just as Orwell stated.

What was Bobby going to say to an author who was likely to publish his answers: “Allen Dulles was a no good S.O.B. and me and John hated that bastard!”?

Guys like Trump, who might be expected to say something like that, didn’t come along until half a century later.
\\][//

Jean Davison
April 6, 2016 at 5:48 pm
“You have a conflict of interests. You want to keep your book relevant. You cannot have certain details be of
any consequence…”

That’s BS, Tom. I don’t give a flip about “keeping my book relevant.” That’s a fantasy you’re projecting onto me.

I’ve been posting in JFK forums ever since Prodigy years ago, when I was delighted to find a group of people who knew what CE399 was, even though most of them didn’t agree with me. I have NEVER brought up the subject of my book on any public forum, not ever. If I say things similar to what I wrote back then it’s because that’s what I believed then and still believe.

I take it from this personal attack that the author you quoted provided no evidence to support his claim about why JFK appointed Dulles.

I don’t care whether the Kennedys hated Dulles or not. I just want to see the evidence for it.

Jean Davison
April 7, 2016 at 11:28 pm
Sorry, I forgot the link. Please post this instead.
———————-

“Again Jean, nobody has to be lying when it comes to the decorum of statesmanlike speech….What was Bobby going to say to an author who was likely to publish his answers: “Allen Dulles was a no good S.O.B. and me and John hated that bastard!”?

Well, Willy, here’s RFK’s reported opinion of J. Edgar Hoover from the same book.

QUOTE:

…Anthony Lewis asked Robert Kennedy whether he thought Hoover just a nasty person or truly dangerous. “No, Kennedy replied, “I think he’s dangerous.” “He’s rather a psycho,” he told John Bartlow Martin, “…I think it’s a very dangerous agency…and I think he’s become senile and rather…frightening.” (p.260)
UNQUOTE

http://www.amazon.com/Robert-Kennedy-Times-Arthur-Schlesinger/dp/0618219285/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1460083881&sr=8-1&keywords=schlesinger+robert+kennedy#reader_0618219285

So much for “the decorum of statesmanlike speech.” If RFK didn’t want to comment on Dulles he could’ve said “no comment.” He didn’t have to lie.

Willy Whitten
April 8, 2016 at 5:23 am
“Anthony Lewis asked Robert Kennedy whether he thought Hoover just a nasty person or truly dangerous. “No, Kennedy replied, “I think he’s dangerous.” “He’s rather a psycho,” he told John Bartlow Martin, “…I think it’s a very dangerous agency…and I think he’s become senile and rather…frightening”.”~Jean Davison

Perhaps J Edgar Hoover was a softer target by that time. Dulles was still dangerous to RFK, in fact he most certainly had a hand in Robert Kennedy’s death as well as his brother John’s.
\\][//

Jean Davison
April 9, 2016 at 12:29 am
“Perhaps J Edgar Hoover was a softer target by that time. Dulles was still dangerous to RFK, in fact he most certainly had a hand in Robert Kennedy’s death as well as his brother John’s.”

Or maybe Schlesinger’s quote was accurate and RFK meant what he said. You certainly haven’t presented any evidence to the contrary. You haven’t shown that the Kennedys “despised” Dulles nor provided a shred of evidence for your other accusations quoted above.

Willy Whitten
April 9, 2016 at 2:01 am
“You haven’t shown that the Kennedys “despised” Dulles nor provided a shred of evidence for your other accusations quoted above.”~Jean Davison

I think that a proper assessment of the entire period shows that there was great antagonism between Kennedy and Dulles – serious mortal antagonism. If you can’t see that, it is no my problem.

You have not put either one of those quotes in context, nor perspective. You don’t even state what dates they were made, and it is unclear as to which author quoted which quote.
\\][//
....
24
The JFK Assassination - Discussion & Debate / Re: The First Shot
« Last post by Jarrett Smith on Today at 01:18:55 AM »
I estimate Hill would have heard the second shot about Z223 which is a very clear frame with no blurring. It doesn't look to me as if he is looking directly at JFK at that point. Prior to hearing the shot, I would think his focus would have been on the few spectators to the left of the limo. There would have been less than 2 seconds from the time he heard the second shot until Altgens took the photo. He would have had to turn to look at JFK, seen that he had been hit, and then reacted. I think less than two seconds for that process seems reasonable to me.

Mr. HILL. Well, as we came out of the curve, and began to straighten up, I was viewing the area which looked to be a park. There were people scattered throughout the entire park. And I heard a noise from my right rear, which to me seemed to be a firecracker. I immediately looked to my right and, in so doing, my eyes had to cross the Presidential limousine and I saw President Kennedy grab at himself and lurch forward and to the left.
Mr. SPECTER. Why don't you just proceed, in narrative form, to tell us?
Representative BOGGS. This was the first shot?
Mr. HILL. This is the first sound that I heard; yes, sir. I jumped from the car, realizing that something was wrong, ran to the Presidential limousine. Just about as I reached it, there was another sound, which was different than the first sound. I think I described it in my statement as though someone was shooting a revolver into a hard object--it seemed to have some type of an echo. I put my right foot, I believe it was, on the left rear step of the automobile, and I had a hold of the handgrip with my hand, when the car lurched forward. I lost my footing and I had to run about three or four more steps before I could get back up in the car.
Between the time I originally grabbed the handhold and until I was up on the car, Mrs. Kennedy--the second noise that I heard had removed a portion of the President's head, and he had slumped noticeably to his left.
Mrs. Kennedy had jumped up from the seat and was, it appeared to me, reaching for something coming off the right rear bumper of the car, the right rear tail, when she noticed that I was trying to climb on the car. She turned toward me and I grabbed her and put her back in the back seat, crawled up on top of the back seat and lay there.

Clint Hill did not jump off the follow up car until after Z-313 and almost reached the car at Z-331 the exact time Zapruder's film blurred.  Bang......bang..bang?

Largest Z313-Z318
2nd Largest Z331-Z334

25
The only ghost is the Holy Ghost. When you die its either paradise or torment. The mind can play tricks on you.

I've been down that road when I was young proselytizing nuisance with Campus Crusade for Christ. I now pee on that theology. In none of my theological beliefs is dogma allowed to trump the evidence. VAST bodies of evidence show conclusively that the "paradise or torment" theology is simply false. Nor am I willing to play the game that "I can't believe my own lying eyes and brain because everything that cuts against my dogma is the product of supernaturally clever deceiving demons." Lord, what a way to live!
26
I wonder if you realize how extreme and biased you make yourself look with this kind of polemic.

Pretty dadgum extreme and biased. YEE-HAA!

Quote
You couldn't even list six books, but only five.

That's because I was quoting a post from 2018. Here ya go: Walden by Henry David Thoreau. Happy now?

Quote
Then, you just had to get on your soapbox and repeat your talking point that everyone who disagrees with you has a "conspiracy-prone mindset." In other replies, you've stated that those who disagree with you have warped minds, faulty neural pathways, and even a form of mental illness. In one reply, you said Greg Doudna was part of the "lunatic fringe." In another reply, you said that Dr. David Mantik sees things that no one else sees.

Not everyone, sweetie, but indeed some we could name.  ::) I'm sure Greg is an intelligent and hardworking guy who is kind to stray dogs, but in my opinion his ideas on virtually every issue are indeed lunatic fringe stuff. YMMV, and I'll bet it does.

The fact is, as I have pointed out repeatedly, there is now a VAST body of psychological and sociological literature concerning the conspiracy-prone mindset. Your continued umbrage might seem to many as though you were protesting just a wee bit too much.

Familiarity with this literature would be exceedingly helpful to a newbie in attempting to separate the wheat (e.g., Larry Hancock) from the chaff (i.e., you) in the CT literature.

Quote
And notice the difference between the balance in my list and the lop-sided nature of your list. You list a very old book (Epstein) that questions the Warren Commission but posits a conspiracy theory that virtually no one believes anymore, and you list a book on Oswald in Russia (Titovets) written in 2021 by a guy who knew Oswald during his few years in Russia from October 1959 to June 1962. I would have been hard pressed to think of two weaker pro-conspiracy books. Your three pro-LN books are not terrible--I can think of several that are worse--but two of the authors had rather weak credentials to be writing about the JFK case, and it shows in their books (McMillan and Davison).

In my list, I included a recent and robust scholarly defense of the Warren Report, an exposition on the mortal-error theory (which disagrees with both the lone-gunman view and the conspiracy view), a book that focuses on the nature of the shooting and goes no further than to argue for multiple shooters without speculating on suspects), a book on the historic ARRB disclosures written by a former senior ARRB analyst, a book on the forensic and ballistics evidence written by a radiation oncologist and physicist who's also licensed in radiology, and a book on the evidence of Mafia involvement written by an award-winning investigative journalist.

I will concede: you are as fair and balanced as FOX News.  ::)

What you fail to grasp is that I am talking about methodology for a newbie. My suggestion would be for a newbie, BEFORE he (or she) dives into substantive JFKA materials, to (1) familiarize himself with the literature concerning the conspiracy-prone mindset, and (2) thoroughly acquaint himself with Oswald the actual man, not the fictional Most Interesting Man Who Ever Lived of much CT literature or the cardboard cutout who is plugged into many conspiracy theories only because "we gotta do something with him."
28
Six Seconds in Dallas
Last Second in Dallas
JFK: Absolute Proof
No More Silence
Mafia Kingfish: Carlos Marcello and the Assassination of John F. Kennedy
The Plot to Kill the President
29
I wouldn't stoop to reply, but this is CLASSIC of what MTG does. Reality simply cannot penetrate the CT bubble in which he lives.

The ABSOLUTELY SCATHING review of O'Toole's book that I cited and quoted from was from the PROFESSIONAL JOURNAL OF THE AMERICAN POLYGRAPH ASSOCIATION. Hello?

Forty years later, Sean DeGrilla and his highly professional VSA cohorts ABSOLUTELY SHREDDED O'Toole's work and demonstrated the gross error that he had either incompetently or fraudulently committed.

The issue is not the accuracy of VSA. The issue is the incompetence and lack of ethics of O'Toole. Correctly done VSA by DeGrilla and peer-reviewed by world-class VSA experts showed Oswald as LYING.

No, he was not the chief of anything during his less than three years with the CIA. His PRECISE POSITIONS that I quoted were from a CIA DOCUMENT describing his employment. This was not a document attempting to minimize O'Toole or his CT views. It was simply a document briefly describing each of the principals of the Committee to Investigate Assassinations: https://www.cia.gov/readingroom/docs/THE%20COMMITTEE%20TO%20INVESTIG%5B16506075%5D.pdf.

I repeat: "He was employed as a Digital Computer Systems Analyst in March 1966. He resigned 24 January 1969 from a position as a Research Officer, GS-14, ORD/DDS&T" (Office of Research and Development, Directorate of Science and Technology).

He was not an "ex-CIA agent." He was not a "bureau chief." He was not "Chief of the Problem Analysis Branch." These are all titles that O'Toole either misappropriated or allowed to be attached to his name because what he actually was didn't sound sufficiently impressive. You will also see him referred to as a "case officer."

If this isn't sufficient for you, there WAS NO "Problem Analysis Branch" in the Office of Research and Development. It was called the Analysis Division. https://nsarchive2.gwu.edu/NSAEBB/NSAEBB54/st33.pdf. A history of the Analysis Division written in the 1970s said the Chief (name redacted) was appointed in 1968 and remained Chief "throughout its history" to the date of writing. https://www.governmentattic.org/27docs/HistCIAofcRandDvols1-6.pdf.

This is what MTG does, again and again. His crap is exposed, reamed, steamed and drycleaned - AND HE FLAT DOESN'T CARE. In the SAME THREAD in which it's been exposed, he repeats it all over again! There is something seriously wrong with this guy.

Oh, boy. Once again we're going to see that you get into trouble and show the inadequacy of your research when you engage on specifics.

For starters, I notice you didn't address the point about whether you have even read O'Toole's book.

Now, it just figures that you would cite Sean DeGrilla apparently without knowing of any of the many problems with his shoddy scholarship.

DeGrilla's critique of O'Toole's book is downright deceptive. Let's take a look at DeGrilla's attack on O'Toole's PSE analysis in his book Malcontent (Part II:1):

DeGrilla pretends that PSE experts Mike Kradz and Lloyd (“Rusty”) Hitchcock did not confirm what O’Toole said about their PSE analyses, and that they gave “less than ringing endorsements” when asked about O’Toole’s PSE research. If you actually read DeGrilla’s quotes from Kradz and Hitchcock, you see that he is rather clumsily misrepresenting what they said, even though he quotes them.

With Kradz’s statement, DeGrilla underlines the part where, clearly for rhetorical effect, Kradz describes O’Toole’s research as “a strange, different, and bizarre system of explanations and interpretations.” Perhaps DeGrilla hoped that by underlining these words, the reader would not notice that Kradz then goes on to say that O’Toole’s system of explanations and interpretations is “creditable” and “has not been denied nor refuted.” So even though Kradz said that O’Toole’s research was creditable and had not been denied or refuted, DeGrilla pretends that Kradz denigrated O’Toole’s research.

Furthermore, we should remember that when O’Toole asked Kradz to analyze the Oswald PSE charts, he did not tell him that the charts were of Oswald’s statements. He simply told Kradz that the charts were of statements made by someone who had been accused of murder, so Kradz had no idea that he was looking at charts of statements made by Oswald. I mention this because DeGrilla does not.

Also, when Kradz learned that the PSE charts were of Oswald, he suspected the O’Toole had misused his PSE equipment, so he checked all the settings that O’Toole had used--and found no problem with them.

DeGrilla’s attempt to minimize Hitchcock’s endorsement of O’Toole’s PSE research on Oswald’s declarations of innocence is perhaps even more misleading and sophomoric than his treatment of Kradz’s statement.

DeGrilla quotes an FBI memo that opined that Hitchcock’s letter to O’Toole was “far from an unqualified endorsement.” Really? Hitchcock said that unless Oswald was so crazy that he was unaware of his own actions, he, Hitchcock, could state “beyond reasonable doubt” that Oswald did not shoot Kennedy and did not shoot anyone else. Let’s read what the memo itself quotes Hitchcock as saying:

“Assuming that he (Oswald) was not suffering from a psycho-pathological condition that made him ignorant of his own actions, I can state, beyond reasonable doubt, that Lee Harvey Oswald did not kill President Kennedy and did not shoot anyone else.”

And this is not all that Hitchcock said. DeGrilla conveniently fails to inform his readers that Hitchcock also said in his letter that his own PSE analysis of the recordings of Oswald’s innocence declarations “clearly” indicated that Oswald believed he was telling the truth when he made them. I quote from Hitchcock’s letter:

“My PSE analysis of these recordings indicates very clearly that Oswald believed he was telling the truth when he denied killing the president.”

Humm, I wonder why DeGrilla does not see fit to quote that part of Hitchcock’s letter. Why do you suppose he omitted such crucial information?

You have once again been burned by your failure to read both sides of an issue before discussing the matter in a public forum. I'm certain you had no idea about the errors and deception in DeGrilla's research, and it apparently did not occur to you to read O'Toole's book or his article before running with DeGrilla's hack job.

I would encourage everyone to read O’Toole’s article on his PSE analysis of Oswald’s innocence declarations. O’Toole’s article contains a lot more information than what I’ve presented so far, such as information on O’Toole’s methodology and how he used the PSE equipment. Here’s the link to the article:

http://jfk.hood.edu/Collection/Weisberg%20Subject%20Index%20Files/O%20Disk/O%27Toole%20George/Item%2021.pdf

I would also encourage everyone to read O'Toole's book The Assassination Tapes.

As for O'Toole's position at the CIA, I will just point out that unfortunately the CIA has a long record of not always being completely accurate when describing the work and positions of former CIA personnel who said things the agency did not like.

It is worth noting that O'Toole authored several award-winning books, including The Encyclopedia of American Intelligence and Espionage and Honorable Treachery: A History of American Intelligence. One of his books was a Pulitzer Prize nominee.

The bio that O'Toole submitted to a research committee reads as follows:

Mr. O'Toole is a former employee of the Central Intelligence Agency. He was employed as a Digital Computer Systems Analyst in March 1966. He resigned 24 January 1969 from a position as a Research Officer, GS-14, ORD/DDSGT. Mr. O'Toole accepted a position as Director of the Education Division of Computer Methods Corporation, New York.

Now, I can tell you as a federal employee myself that GS-14 is a very high rank, and that GS-14s are frequently put in charge of running offices or branches of departments and sometimes entire departments. The person who ran the department I worked for at Army Sustainment University was a GS-14.

Of course, you seek to denigrate or minimize the qualifications of any author who posits a conspiracy in the JFK case, but O'Toole was clearly an educated person and a serious and respected scholar.

30
The only ghost is the Holy Ghost. When you die its either paradise or torment. The mind can play tricks on you.
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