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21
JFK Assassination Plus General Discussion And Debate / Re: What evidence of a conspiracy would we expect to find?
« Last post by Lance Payette on Yesterday at 09:50:08 PM »
Quote from: John Corbett on Yesterday at 09:19:21 PM
There is as much evidence of Mafia involvement as there is for any other entity other than Oswald which is to say there is zero evidence. If you want to hypothesize a conspiracy for which you can find no evidence, that's your privilege. I choose to base my beliefs on real evidence.
Well, let's see: Frank Ragano, who was unquestionably one of the principal lawyers for Hoffa, Marcello and Trafficante, said there had long been hints of Mafia involvement in the JFKA and that Trafficante made a deathbed confession. Hearsay regarding deathbed confessions is admissible in court under the exceptions for "dying declarations' or "statements against interest" - but you, of course, knew this from Episode #89 of Perry Mason, where Big Louie confessed "Yeah, I killed da bum" and Perry responded "Son of a gun, Della, I didn't see that coming." Ergo, what Ragano says cannot be dismissed as "zero evidence." He should be and was scrutinized, but Blakey believed him.

You can keep saying "zero evidence" to everyone who disagrees with you, but your opinion that the evidence is inadequate does not equate to zero evidence.

Lest anyone think I'm hiding the ball, here is the Wokeypoodia section on Ragano's claims, including Bugliosi's opinion that they were bogus (no, really?).

JFK assassination claims

On January 14, 1992, Ragano told Jack Newfield of the New York Post that he relayed a request from Hoffa to Trafficante and Marcello asking that the two Mafia bosses kill Kennedy.[37] He repeated the claim two days later on ABC's Good Morning America,[38] in Newfield's Frontline report entitled JFK, Hoffa and Mob broadcast in November 1992,[39] and again in his 1994 autobiography Mob Lawyer.[8]

According to Ragano, he met Hoffa at the Teamsters' headquarters in Washington D.C. then delivered the message to Trafficante and Marcello a few days later in a meeting at the Royal Orleans Hotel in New Orleans.[37][38] He stated he was chosen by Hoffa because, as both Hoffa and Trafficante's lawyer, he could be assured of attorney–client privilege.[37] Ragano said that Jim Garrison served as a patsy for the New Orleans mob by disseminating theories that served to distract attention from mafia figures who were involved in the plot.[40]

Although Ragano believed he had received a few hints from both Trafficante and Marcello that they had somehow been involved in the Kennedy assassination, it was not until just before he died in 1987 that Trafficante, according to Ragano, made a direct confession to him. Ragano wrote that on March 13, 1987, a dying Trafficante (he died four days later) asked to meet him in Tampa for a hurried meeting. While riding in Ragano's car, Trafficante allegedly told Ragano in Sicilian: "Carlos e' futtutu. Non duvevamu ammazzari a Giovanni. Duvevamu ammazzari a Bobby," which Ragano translated as: "Carlos screwed up. We shouldn't have killed John. We should have killed Bobby."[41] Ragano stated three witnesses could support his statement that he met Trafficante in Tampa.[42] He refused to name them adding: "One guy is afraid of retaliation. The other guys are two doctors, who say they'll testify if they're summoned to court."[42]

In his book Reclaiming History: the Assassination of President John F. Kennedy, Vincent Bugliosi has pointed out many flaws in Ragano's claims, including the fact that Trafficante was most likely not in Tampa on the day in question, but was rather in North Miami Beach receiving dialysis treatments.[43] Bugliosi argues that it is absurd to think that Marcello and Trafficante would get involved in plotting to assassinate a president, particularly as nothing more than a supposed favor to Jimmy Hoffa.[44] Bugliosi also points out that by allegedly conveying a message in 1963 to that effect, and by relating this confession from an alleged conspirator, Ragano would himself be admitting to having been a part of a murder conspiracy.[45]

Shortly after the initial allegations, Jeffrey Hart compared Ragano's account with that presented in Oliver Stone's recently released film JFK.[46] According to Hart, Ragano presented an "earthy motive, vastly more plausible than the movie theory."[46] Hart quoted G. Robert Blakey as stating that he believed Ragano and that his testimony "would have strengthened the conclusions" of the HSCA.[46] Hart also quoted Frank Mankiewicz, Robert F. Kennedy's press secretary, as finding Ragano's scenario as "the most plausible (assassination) theory".[46]

When Ragano was questioned by the Assassination Records Review Board, created in 1992 to reexamine JFK conspiracy theories after the release of Stone's film, he claimed to have contemporaneous notes of his conversations regarding the JFK plot, but when they were produced, "he could not definitively state whether the notes were taken during the meetings [with mob figures]... or later when he was working on his book." His notes were subjected to Secret Service tests to determine when they were actually prepared, but the results were inconclusive.[47]
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JFK Assassination Plus General Discussion And Debate / Re: How Did Bart Kamp Create The Lovelady Image?
« Last post by Zeon Mason on Yesterday at 09:49:51 PM »
Quote from: Royell Storing on Yesterday at 08:28:43 PM
    I agree. That was Not Lovelady & Shelley that were back by the freight elevator when Truly and Baker were back there. There is Nothing to support that claim.
   

That’s right because Adams /Stiles got to the ground floor by 60 secs and if they saw Lovelady / Shelley then it’s an amazing teleportation trick.
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JFK Assassination Plus General Discussion And Debate / Re: The First Shot
« Last post by Zeon Mason on Yesterday at 09:33:51 PM »
At Z255, although SS agents are looking back at the TSBD, there is one man in backseat of the car  looking forward and smiling What? 😳

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JFK Assassination Plus General Discussion And Debate / Re: Video: Dallas Motorcycle Cop H B McClain Interviewed In Dallas 1998
« Last post by John Corbett on Yesterday at 09:29:36 PM »
Quote from: Lance Payette on Yesterday at 03:47:53 PM
He was only asked for his opinion.

Opinions of non-expert testimony is only allowable if it can reasonably concluded from what a witness observed. McLain did not observe the shooting.

Federal Rule of Evidence 701 (Lay Opinion Testimony)
Under FRE 701, a non‑expert witness (a “lay witness”) may give an opinion if it is:

Rationally based on the witness’s perception (what they personally saw, heard, or experienced) LII / Legal Information Institute+1.

Helpful to clearly understanding the witness’s testimony or to determining a fact in issue LII / Legal Information Institute.

Not based on scientific, technical, or other specialized knowledge — that type of opinion must be given by an expert under FRE 702 LII / Legal Information Institute+2.

For example, a witness might say, “The man looked angry when he saw the victim” or “The car seemed to be going too fast for the wet road” — these are admissible because they are grounded in firsthand observation and helpful to the jury uslawexplained.com.

What’s Not Allowed
Opinions that rely on specialized training, technical methods, or professional standards (e.g., “This handwriting is forged” without expert analysis) are not lay opinions and must be given by an expert www.forensisgroup.com+1.

Special Caution: “Human Lie Detector” Testimony
In criminal trials, courts are especially wary of testimony that functions as a human lie detector — for example, a witness saying, “I think the defendant is lying” about a specific statement. Such testimony is generally inadmissible because it undermines the jury’s role in assessing credibility United States Court of Appeals for the Armed Forces.

State Law
Most states follow a version of FRE 701 in their own rules of evidence. Ohio’s rules mirror this framework, so the same principles apply in state criminal trials.

Bottom line: Lay witness opinions are allowed in criminal trials if they are rationally based on firsthand perception, helpful to the jury, and not disguised as expert analysis. However, certain types of opinion — especially those implying truthfulness or falsity about specific statements — are excluded to protect the jury’s role in credibility determinations
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JFK Assassination Plus General Discussion And Debate / Re: "Overthinking" (or maybe not?) the Walker attempt
« Last post by John Corbett on Yesterday at 09:26:17 PM »
Quote from: Zeon Mason on Yesterday at 09:01:13 PM
Hey, could you find a Gumby doll and figure out how Govnr Connally was sitting on the jump seat and which way his legs were positioned and how he was likely holding his hat during the Z film sequence and try out Andrew’s twisted pretzel position for JC at Z270?

I'd say that last picture is a fairly accurate representation of JFK's position in the limo. Assuming the side of the car is to scale, it does give a fairly good representation of JFK when he was shot in the back.

If you have another doll, I would just cut off the lower legs to allow it to fit and turn JBC's shoulders about where you think he was at Z222. You don't need the lower legs for this exercise.
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JFK Assassination Plus General Discussion And Debate / Re: What evidence of a conspiracy would we expect to find?
« Last post by John Corbett on Yesterday at 09:19:21 PM »
Quote from: Lance Payette on Yesterday at 08:51:30 PM
All of those would be wonderful, but would they realistically be EXPECTED in a tight, compartmentalized Mafia hit of the POTUS - a hit that could literally destroy the organization if it went awry? Have a little respect for professionalism of the Mafia, willya? The American and Sicilian Mafia are estimated to have carried out thousands of successful hits over the past century. My expectation for the JFKA would be no more evidence than we have.

Alas, all of the Mafia-did-it books are not available on Kindle, so I'm going to have to load up on hard copies.

I know Larry Schnapf and Pat Speer lean toward the Mafia. I did a search on the Ed Forum and found what I expected: The Mafia gets little attention, and then only in the context of being a bit player in the elaborate and completely unbelievable LBJ, CIA and Everyone Else In the World Except Jackie and Hickey Conspiracy. The CT community simply cannot abide a conspiracy as dull and unsatisfying as the Mafia - just the Mafia.

There is as much evidence of Mafia involvement as there is for any other entity other than Oswald which is to say there is zero evidence. If you want to hypothesize a conspiracy for which you can find no evidence, that's your privilege. I choose to base my beliefs on real evidence.
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JFK Assassination Plus General Discussion And Debate / Re: What evidence of a conspiracy would we expect to find?
« Last post by Lance Payette on Yesterday at 09:12:42 PM »
Quote from: Zeon Mason on Yesterday at 08:47:20 PM
Well I would suggest that if Oswald was the shooter and he was  part of a conspiracy, there were no plans for Oswald to be the patsy because surely there would have been a conspirator cameraman on the ground filming or getting a zoomed in photo of Oswald’s face as he stuck the rifle out the window.

Perhaps, but now we have a cameraman who is part of the conspiracy and is going to have to survive scrutiny of himself. I ran this past Phoebe Marcello, Carlos' cousin quadruply removed, and she said "Nah, I think they had Oswald sufficiently framed that photos would have been overkill. 'Overkill' - get it? Hee, hee, hee."

Quote
So if it’s a conspiracy, then Oswald was not the shooter although he might have been used by the conspirators after they found out he was kind if a kook who had taken pictures of himself with a rifle and revolver.

I will agree that Oswald being a shooter in a Mafia conspiracy that he thinks is a pro-Castro conspiracy bumps up against some of the problems I suggested with the LN narrative - he simply doesn't act like there is anything of that sort on his mind while he's in Irving or on the morning of the JFKA. On the other hand, to be the perfect Mafia patsy, he has to be a shooter who knows nothing except that he's in a pro-Castro conspiracy. In this scenario, it doesn't matter if he lives or dies. As I understand Orr's theory, Marcello recruits Oswald through the Dutz Murret connection and makes him an offer he can't refuse - but then Oswald knows too much and can't be allowed to live. I absolutely refuse to believe the Mafia would entrust the future of the entire organization to ... JACK RUBY?

Quote
That’s my Centrist perspective
 
Now who would know about Oswald’s rifle and his photos and that he had shot at Walker and all kinds of things helpful to the WC narrative ?That  would be Marina, the innocent naive  USSR girl who had coincidentally met all the other CIA defectors and of course said nothing at all to her relative KGB officer.

But we are not allowed to question poor little Marina , the one who in one WC testimony can barely speak English or understand it and then in other WC testimony is speaking English fluently and in great detail without a stumble. It’s a Miracle! Certainly the new husband is happy. However , George DeCIA spy , best friend of Oswald is depressed and finally reaches out to George H.W. Bush to get advice. George H.W.B sends a letter to George DeM and George DeSpy decides he should talk to a reporter but alas, about an hour before he is supposed to meet and share, he decides to put a shotgun in his mouth and pull the trigger.

Oh well nothing to see here folks. It’s nothing because “Oswald is our man” and “this case is cinched”.

That’s my CT perspective.

I could be wrong, but isn't most of Marina's WC testimony via an interpreter - so we're not really reading her words? I have a really hard time picturing Our Little Marina as being up to anything really nefarious in either the USSR or US. If she was, she deserves ten Academy Awards. I think I've posted this before, but it's an article with some excellent photos about Our Little Marina's English studies at the University of Michigan after the JFKA: https://heritage.umich.edu/stories/the-assassins-widow/.
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JFK Assassination Plus General Discussion And Debate / Re: "Overthinking" (or maybe not?) the Walker attempt
« Last post by Zeon Mason on Yesterday at 09:01:13 PM »
Quote from: Charles Collins on Yesterday at 08:43:52 PM


I measured it (centerline of the model to edge of outside of the limo) at 3/4’ from the outside edge of the limo. That scales to be 18”.


I had previously ground away part of the model to simulate having the side of his torso against the inside edge of the side of the limo. Sorry about the sideways orientation. It’s apparently the image hosting site’s issue.




Here it is sitting in the limo.



Hey, could you find a Gumby doll and figure out how Govnr Connally was sitting on the jump seat and which way his legs were positioned and how he was likely holding his hat during the Z film sequence and try out Andrew’s twisted pretzel position for JC at Z270?
29
JFK Assassination Plus General Discussion And Debate / Re: What evidence of a conspiracy would we expect to find?
« Last post by Lance Payette on Yesterday at 08:51:30 PM »
Quote from: John Corbett on Yesterday at 07:33:39 PM
That's for the people hypothesizing a conspiracy to figure out. But since I'm in a generous mood, I'll give you a little help.

Physical evidence of one or more gunshots from a location other than the sniper's nest.

An eyewitness to a second gunman.

Wiretaps showing communications between the plotters and Oswald. Not an unrealistic expectation if you suspect the Mafia.

An informant.

That's just off the top of my head.

You'll have to take if from here.

All of those would be wonderful, but would they realistically be EXPECTED in a tight, compartmentalized Mafia hit of the POTUS - a hit that could literally destroy the organization if it went awry? Have a little respect for professionalism of the Mafia, willya? The American and Sicilian Mafia are estimated to have carried out thousands of successful hits over the past century. My expectation for the JFKA would be no more evidence than we have.

Alas, all of the Mafia-did-it books are not available on Kindle, so I'm going to have to load up on hard copies.

I know Larry Schnapf and Pat Speer lean toward the Mafia. I did a search on the Ed Forum and found what I expected: The Mafia gets little attention, and then only in the context of being a bit player in the elaborate and completely unbelievable LBJ, CIA and Everyone Else In the World Except Jackie and Hickey Conspiracy. The CT community simply cannot abide a conspiracy as dull and unsatisfying as the Mafia - just the Mafia.
30
JFK Assassination Plus General Discussion And Debate / Re: What evidence of a conspiracy would we expect to find?
« Last post by Zeon Mason on Yesterday at 08:47:20 PM »
Well I would suggest that if Oswald was the shooter and he was  part of a conspiracy, there were no plans for Oswald to be the patsy because surely there would have been a conspirator cameraman on the ground filming or getting a zoomed in photo of Oswald’s face as he stuck the rifle out the window.

That’s my LN / perspective.

So if it’s a conspiracy, then Oswald was not the shooter although he might have been used by the conspirators after they found out he was kind of a kook whom had taken pictures of himself with a rifle and revolver while holding magazines.

That’s my Centrist / Skeptic perspective
 
Now who would know about Oswald’s rifle and his photos and that he had shot at Walker and all kinds of things helpful to the WC narrative ?That  would be Marina, the innocent naive  USSR girl who had coincidentally met all the other CIA defectors and of course said nothing at all to her relative , a KGB officer no less.

But we are not allowed to question the veracity of poor little Marina , the one who in one WC testimony can barely speak English or understand it and then in other WC testimony is speaking English fluently and in great detail without a stumble. It’s a Miracle! Certainly the new husband was helpful.  However , George DeCIA spy , best friend of Oswald is depressed and finally reaches out to George H.W. Bush to get advice. George H.W.B sends a letter to George DeM and George DeM  decides he should talk to a reporter but alas, about an hour before he is supposed to meet and share, he decides to put a shotgun in his mouth and pull the trigger.

Oh well nothing to see here folks. It’s nothing because “Oswald is our man” and “this case is cinched”.

That’s my CT / Cynic perspective.
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