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21
JFK Assassination Discussion & Debate / Re: The smell of gunpowder
« Last post by John Corbett on Today at 01:10:44 PM »
JC--

My best guess is the GK diversion was created to allow LHO and a second shooter better odds of leaving the TSBD unmolested. Indeed, police manpower was split up in the immediate aftermath of the JFKA. The diversion broadly worked.

So the plan was to frame Oswald as the lone assassin and you do that by having someone fire shots from a different location. Brilliant!!!

What about the guys who fired the diversion shots. How were they going to get away? It's the same conundrum as for those who argue  Ruby shot Oswald to silence him. You then need somebody to silence Ruby. The you need someone to silence the guy who silenced Ruby and so on.
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In any event, the second official investigation into the JFKA, the HSCA-1979, concluded there was likely a JFKA conspiracy. The HSCA was full of smart and skeptical guys, who did not buy into sub-CTs, such the BYP pics being fake, or that LHO never ordered a weapon.

You must think we send our best and brightest people to Congress. Most people end up there because they sucked at everything else they tried. Like Eric Swawell. The smart guys on the HSCA were the ones who dissented from the majority opinion.
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Unfortunately, the HSCA did not conclude who LHO's co-conspirators were.

Because there weren't any.
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Some HSCA members say they ran out of time. I think they may have been barking up the wrong trees (CIA or Mob, rather than G2, DGI or KGB).

Any tree that Oswald wasn't in was the wrong tree.
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On the other hand, the WC LNT resulted from LBJ's diktat that nothing be found that might trigger a nuke war with Russia. At that time, a very real and tangible possibility, since the US and Russia had nearly nuked it out over Cuba in 1962. So was born the WC-LNT, also an unproven narrative. In some ways I do not blame LBF. Even if the KGB-G2 had assassinated JFK, a nuke war would be a horrible result.

Now you are lying. LBJ gave no such order.
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The WC-LNT never even faced a legal test in court, let alone a compelling scientific test.

We don't put dead people on trial. One of the reasons accused people get a trial is so they can face their accusers. That would have been difficult in Oswald's case. The other reason is because the Constitution prevents the government of depriving someone of life, liberty, or property without due process. Oswald had no life, liberty, or property to deprive him of.
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So, we have two unproven narratives regarding the JFKA.

Draw you own conclusions.

I have. The right one. The only right one.
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@Robert Reeves

I exposed KGB infiltration of the CIA in 1984. There were no "foreign sympathetic loyalties." CIA officers believed their colleagues to be loyal patriotic Americans. Even Barry Goldwater, who was aware that his colleagues killed President Kennedy and had plans to kill President Johnson, thought that his colleagues were Americans.

The KGB made substantial headway into corrupting the United States government. KGB officers had been handling CIA officers targeted for political office for more than thirty years. Over the years, some of the most powerful Members of Congress were KGB-controlled CIA officers. They ranged across the political spectrum from the far left to the far right as the KGB played both ends against the middle.

To be clear, CIA officers who were targeted for political office had no idea that the CIA officers who befriended them when they joined the CIA were KGB officers.

The bipartisan corruption in Congress took root in the early 1950s and continued to grow, seemingly proportionate to the corruption in the CIA. When the KGB was exposed in 1984, bipartisan corruption was well entrenched in the Executive Branch and the Legislative Branch, leaving renegade CIA officers free to do as they please.

CIA officers in Congress are clearly violating Article I, section 6 of the United States Constitution, which states: “No Person holding any Office under the United States shall be a Member of either House during his Continuance in Office.”

The men and women of the CIA are not CIA agents. They are “CIA officers,” and officers of the United States Central Intelligence Agency clearly “hold office under the United States,” which means, in no uncertain terms, that they are Constitutionally prohibited from being Members of Congress while they are in the CIA.

A partial list of renegade CIA officers who were being handled by the KGB and who were elected to Congress includes current Senators Charles Schumer and Patrick Leahy. It also includes former Senators Barry Goldwater, Daniel Patrick Moynihan, Walter Mondale, Edward Kennedy, Barbara Mikulski, Claiborne Pell, Chris Dodd, and Thomas Eagleton.

Among the CIA officers who became Members of the House of Representatives are Leon Panetta, George H. W. Bush, Geraldine Ferraro, Edwin Forsythe, and Lawrence McDonald.

Twelve of these CIA officers were Members of Congress in 1984 while George Bush, who had previously served two terms in Congress in violation of the Constitution, held the Office of Vice President.

There were other CIA officers in Congress from both parties whose names I do not recall, and there have been more CIA officers elected to Congress since 1984. To repeat, this is only a partial list.

Former Senator John Ashcroft and former Senator John Kerry are renegade CIA officers who were elected to the Senate after the KGB was exposed. Ashcroft went on to have an “official cover” as U.S. Attorney General under President George W. Bush, and Kerry went on to have an “official cover” as U.S. Secretary of State under President Barack Obama. Both Kerry and Ashcroft were KGB assets prior to the KGB being exposed.

The Congressional hierarchy tried to justify the Constitutional violation in 1984 by maintaining that CIA officers in Congress would simply treat their Congressional positions separately from their CIA positions. Adding to the ill-conceived logic is the fact that all CIA officers are identified on CIA records by pseudonyms, the names assigned to them when they join the CIA.

Before 1984, the closest any of the KGB officers had ever come to being exposed was during the 1950s when Senator Joseph McCarthy said he had a list of a few dozen people who were secretly Communists, but McCarthy then began accusing thousands of people of being Communists. Many were simply vouching for the credibility of what they thought were loyal Americans, and others were just antithetical to McCarthy’s heavy-handed tactics. McCarthy’s effort itself would have been easy to infiltrate and sabotage by anyone who masked their intentions with a zeal to expose Communists.

“McCarthyism” was born, and McCarthy’s effort failed miserably.

KGB officers continued to enter the United States, assume the identities of deceased Americans, and then join the CIA during the 1950s. McCarthy was ultimately beneficial to them because they were much better off when he and his effort lost all credibility. After they solidified their positions inside the CIA as ostensibly loyal patriotic Americans, the KGB officers began killing Members of Congress in 1957. Six years later, they took aim at the President of the United States.

After the KGB was exposed in 1984, renegade CIA officers took up the mantle and began their own quest to control the government.

CIA officers in Congress are literally spearheading the quest to control the government. They are vanguards for renegade CIA operations inside the United States. They are themselves renegade CIA officers by sheer token of the fact that they are violating the Constitution.

It’s all in my book. Click the link.

https://www.amazon.com/dp/B07V9JT65Y


As for the propaganda that "the damn dirty Ruskies are assassinating dissident freedom fighters and invading allied lands," I am acutely aware that ever since the fall of the Soviet Union in 1991, the CIA has been trying to restart the Cold War.

What you've written sounds like KGB disinformation in-and-of-itself.

The people who were more likely KGB penetrations of the CIA than the people you've listed are: 1) probable mole Bruce Leonard Solie (James Angleton's confidant, mentor, and mole-hunting superior in the Office of Security -- he "cleared" false defector Yuri Nosenko via a bogus polygraph exam and a specious report in October 1968), 2) probable mole Nosenko-defending Leonard V. McCoy, the Soviet Russia Division's Reports & Requirements officer who became Deputy Chief of CIA Counterintelligence in 1975), and probable mole Russia-born George Kisevalter ("CIA's greatest agent handler" and Nosenko defender).
23
I should add that people who peddle this argument also need to explain why Lt. Day confirmed that a bullet hit the grass near the manhole cover, why Dudman reported that a police inspector told him that a bullet was found in the grass, why Walthers told his wife that they found a bullet in the grass, and what the suited man picked up from the hole in the grass and put in his pocket.

These people are reporting what they heard, not what they saw. You don't care. Rumors are all you have, not real evidence.
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Also, I may have been wrong in saying the bullet was removed from the hole before the Fort Worth Star-Telegram photo was taken. As I look at the enlargement of the photo in "Michael Capasse's first reply", there appears to be what looks like the bottom of a bullet in the upper part of the hole, as if the bullet hit the grass, created the dug-out hole, and then lodged in the top part of the hole just under the mound it created.

The photo shows no bullet, just a hole. It was investigated and no bullet was found in the hole. But that didn't stop the rumor that a bullet was found there from spreading. 62+ years later, you are still believing the rumor.
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Yes, the object could just be another rock, but the object seems to have a visible ring inside the circular outside edge.

Seems? IOW, it's in the eye of the beholder. There is no bullet in the photo.
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It's possible that the reporter was allowed to take that photograph before the suited man removed the bullet from the hole.


"The suited man"? IOW, you can't name anyone who actually found a bullet in that hole.
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I assumed the photo must have been taken after the bullet was removed because other photos show bystanders being kept at a distance from the hole in the grass.

You assume a lot. Rumors and assumptions are the building blocks of your beliefs. It certainly isn't evidence.
24
On the Trail of Delusion, Episode 45, Jerry Dealey on Fence Sitting

A really fun talk with Jerry Dealey about his book JFK Assassination: Shades from the Fence.


25

The argument that every single one of the witnesses was mistaken and that this was all just a giant misunderstanding is unserious and discrediting. Anyone who peddles this line needs to explain what else could have hit the grass in such a way as to make Officer Foster believe that a bullet had hit the grass.

I should add that people who peddle this argument also need to explain why Lt. Day confirmed that a bullet hit the grass near the manhole cover, why Dudman reported that a police inspector told him that a bullet was found in the grass, why Walthers told his wife that they found a bullet in the grass, and what the suited man picked up from the hole in the grass and put in his pocket.

Also, I may have been wrong in saying the bullet was removed from the hole before the Fort Worth Star-Telegram photo was taken. As I look at the enlargement of the photo in "Michael Capasse's first reply", there appears to be what looks like the bottom of a bullet in the upper part of the hole, as if the bullet hit the grass, created the dug-out hole, and then lodged in the top part of the hole just under the mound it created.

Yes, the object could just be another rock, but the object seems to have a visible ring inside the circular outside edge.

It's possible that the reporter was allowed to take that photograph before the suited man removed the bullet from the hole. I assumed the photo must have been taken after the bullet was removed because other photos show bystanders being kept at a distance from the hole in the grass.
26
I was hoping that under new owner Andrew Iler, and the nine-member (!) moderator panel, the anti-Semitic crackpots at the Education Forum-JFKA would be curbed.

After all, the lead crackpot, former "moderator" William Niedernut, has disappeared entirely, although the EF-JFLA was his raison d'être. Maybe Niedernut is on suicide watch somewhere.

But the kook-crackpots are still operating in force, with their CT's that the Jews and Mossad perped the JFKA.

Epstein is still a favorite main-bar topic at the EF-JFKA, something to do with Jew-cabals running the planet, despite zero connection between the Kennedy assassination and Epstein.

Typical recent EF-JFKA post content  (Screen Capture)

The EF-JFKA has some good participants...but also many who defecate on themselves, and the EF-JFKA, in public and frequently.

Well, I don't know that we can say that positing Israeli involvement in JFK's death is automatically anti-Semitic or that anyone who posits such involvement must be anti-Semitic.

However, I think it is entirely fair to say, based on their posts and replies, that most of the EF members who posit Israeli complicity are clearly anti-Israeli and pro-Hamas/Hezbollah/Iran.

When I've accused some of those EF folks of posting anti-Semitic material, they have insisted they have nothing against Jews as people but are talking about certain Israeli leaders and Israeli intelligence operatives at the time. I believe some of them and disbelieve others.

There is often a very fine line between being anti-Israeli and being anti-Semitic.

Like you, I believe that Niederhut is anti-Semitic.
27
I was hoping that under new owner Andrew Iler, and the nine-member (!) moderator panel, the anti-Semitic crackpots at the Education Forum-JFKA would be curbed.

After all, the lead crackpot, former "moderator" William Niedernut, has disappeared entirely, although the EF-JFKA was his raison d'être. Maybe Niedernut is on suicide watch somewhere.

But the kook-crackpots are still operating in force, with their CT's that the Jews and Mossad perped the JFKA.

Epstein is still a favorite main-bar topic at the EF-JFKA, something to do with Jew-cabals running the planet, despite zero connection between the Kennedy assassination and Epstein.

Typical recent EF-JFKA post content (Screen Capture)




The EF-JFKA has some good participants...but also many who defecate on themselves, and the EF-JFKA, in public and frequently.
29
JFK Assassination Discussion & Debate / Re: The smell of gunpowder
« Last post by Benjamin Cole on Today at 03:54:24 AM »
JC--

My best guess is the GK diversion was created to allow LHO and a second shooter better odds of leaving the TSBD unmolested. Indeed, police manpower was split up in the immediate aftermath of the JFKA. The diversion broadly worked.

In any event, the second official investigation into the JFKA, the HSCA-1979, concluded there was likely a JFKA conspiracy. The HSCA was full of smart and skeptical guys, who did not buy into sub-CTs, such the BYP pics being fake, or that LHO never ordered a weapon.

Unfortunately, the HSCA did not conclude who LHO's co-conspirators were. Some HSCA members say they ran out of time. I think they may have been barking up the wrong trees (CIA or Mob, rather than G2, DGI or KGB).

On the other hand, the WC LNT resulted from LBJ's diktat that nothing be found that might trigger a nuke war with Russia. At that time, a very real and tangible possibility, since the US and Russia had nearly nuked it out over Cuba in 1962. So was born the WC-LNT, also an unproven narrative. In some ways I do not blame LBF. Even if the KGB-G2 had assassinated JFK, a nuke war would be a horrible result.

The WC-LNT never even faced a legal test in court, let alone a compelling scientific test.

So, we have two unproven narratives regarding the JFKA.

Draw you own conclusions.

30
As part of an ongoing project testing the forensic/ballistic elements of the assassination. I’ve done extensive and redundant ballistic testing, trajectory analysis and forensic reconstructions. To test the head shot trajectory and fragmentation pattern, I shot three intact pig’s heads.  I had pre and post X-rays taken.  Using surplus 6.5 Carcano on one of the heads, the shot did not explode the head and left a relatively small exit hole (8-9mm) with minor skull fracturing.  A witness panel 2 feet behind the head revealed only a slight yaw and the x-ray showed no fragmentation/jacket separation.  The maintained its trajectory through the skull into the witness panel.  Then using .257 Roberts with a thin jacketed sierra matchking projectile at 3300 fps, it took out the occipital skull and most of the brain with it.  It left the characteristic lead snowstorm on the x-ray and the smallest of fragments on the witness panel. 

I was a little uncertain as to the cortical thickness of the skull so I did a separate test shooting a 7 mm thick pork shoulder blade embedded on one end of a 8 inch ballistic gel block and pork ribs on the other end.  The Carcano round made a 6 mm round hole in the shoulder blade, cut a straight path through the ballistic gel, and clipped the edge of one if the ribs leaving a perfect semi circle.  The witness panel again showed a slight yaw and no fragmentation/jacket separation whatsoever with no deviation in trajectory. 

I’ve long been skeptical of the trajectories of CE 567 and 569, so that was the purpose of the test—but I couldn’t get the Carcano jacket to shear.

I have said for a long time that no shooting can be perfectly replicated. There are simply too many variables. Even if a pig skull replicates JFK's skull, which of course it doesn't, even a slight change in the angle of entry could produce an entirely different result. A recreation can show what MIGHT have happened but it can never prove what did happen. You could do your experiment 100 times and you would likely get 100 different results. Some of them might be very similar, but none are going to be identical.

The proof of what CAN happen when a 6.5 X 52mm Carcano bullet strikes a human skull lay on the floor of the presidential limo and in the photos and x-rays of JFK's skull. There is no evidence of any other type of bullet having been fired at JFK that day. 3 spent shells were found on the 6th floor of the TSBD that were positively matched to the rifle found a short distance away and that rifle was positively matched to CE399 found at Parkland and to two of the fragments found on the floor of the limo. It doesn't take Columbo to figure out the fragmented bullet found on the floor of the limo was the one that struck JFK's skull and also cracked the windshield and dented the frame. For that to possible, it only needed to happen once. It does not need to be duplicated.
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