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21
It is sad to see WC defenders still posting claims that have long since been soundly refuted.

No, the FBI did not duplicate the dent on CE 543 in any shell that was used to actually fire a bullet. No test has ever duplicated that dent in a shell that fired a bullet. CE 543 could not have been used to fire a bullet during the assassination.

This issue has been settled for years. Even some lone-gunman theorists have acknowledged that CE 543 could not have fired a bullet during the assassination. All those who believe in the mortal-error theory of the assassination acknowledge that CE 543 could not have fired a bullet during the shooting. But, most WC defenders don't want to admit this fact about CE 543 because it raises serious questions about their version of the shooting.

I would refer interested readers to my online article
"The Dented Bullet Shell: Hard Evidence of Conspiracy in the JFK Assassination."


I explore this issue in even more detail in chapter 17 of my book A Comforting Lie: The Myth That a Lone Gunman Killed President Kennedy.

Here is some of what Dr. Josiah Thompson says about the dented shell, CE 543, in his 2020 book Last Second in Dallas:

Things got really interesting when we photographed the three cartridge cases found near the corner window of the sixth floor of the depository and the live round found in the rifle.

I noticed something never mentioned in all the expert testimony or shown in any of the Warren Commission photographs. If you laid out the three cartridges alongside the live round, you could see a dent on the shoulders of two of the cases where they abutted the chamber of the rifle. The live round showed a similar but much less prominent mark. In contrast, the third cartridge case, designated CE 543, had no dent on its shoulder but a sharp dent in its lip. In its present form, this cartridge would not accept a projectile. . . .

According to Hoover, there was no mark like this on CE 543, only the magazine follower mark and the three strange marks mentioned by Nicol.

But the magazine follower mark could not have been caused on November 22 because that mark is caused by a lever under spring tension at the bottom of the magazine that presses against only the last round in the clip. Since the live round found in the rifle was the bottom round in the clip on November 22, it had its own follower mark. Even more important, Hoover’s letter mentioned that the three marks described by Nicol were absent not only from the other cartridge cases and the live round but also from the many cartridge cases produced in test firings of Oswald’s rifle. That clinched it: the cartridge case with the dented lip also had marks from a second Carcano, not Oswald’s. (Last Second in Dallas, pp. 178-179, 184-185)


In their book JFK Case Not Closed, Dave O'Brien and Johnny Cairns note some of the evidence that CE 543 could not have fired a bullet during the assassination:

The only marks that link CE 543 to the Carcano were produced by the magazine follower. These marks are caused by the pressure of the magazine follower on the last round in the clip, which pushes the remaining rounds in the clip upwards as their predecessors are chambered and then ejected from the rifle.

When the final round is chambered, the clip falls past the magazine follower and drops out of the bottom of the magazine well. While other cases had similar marks, the point is that these marks could not have been caused by the Carcano's magazine follower on the day of the assassination as the last round in the clip (CE 141) was unfired and still chambered in the rifle when it was found. . . .

CE 543 lacks a characteristic displayed by all the other cartridge cases (CE 544, CE 545 and CE 577) that have been chambered in the Carcano - a distinct impression along one side. Even CE 141 (the live round), showed a similar, if less pronounced, impression. . . .

If CE 543 is supposed to have been fired in the Carcano, how could it be missing this distinct impression? (JFK Case Not Closed, pp. 141-145)


22
   Though this "theory" has no Proof, neither does the SBT. Yet the SBT is routinely embraced as being legit. The SA Hickey accidental firing of the AR-15 is certainly not "silly". I don't believe the AR-15 was responsible for the JFK Head Explosion, but an accidental missed shot(s) fired from that gun is very possible. This accidental firing would explain the smell of gunpowder stretching down Elm St as this fired weapon inside the Queen Mary traveled down Elm St and then onto the Stemmons Fwy On-Ramp.

Did the AR-15 have a silencer? None of the other agents nor David Powers heard a shot fired from inside the Queen Mary. No one could miss hearing an AR-15 fired from just a yard or two away.
23
Here are 10 reasons to believe Lee Harvey Oswald did not shoot JFK:

1. The ammo that hit JFK's head behaved nothing like the ammo that Oswald allegedly used.

The ammo that hit Kennedy's head shattered into dozens of tiny fragments (practically particles) and a few larger fragments, deposited at least three fragments on the rear outer table of the skull, and left two fragments in the very front of the skull near the right orbit. Oswald allegedly used FMJ bullets, but FMJ bullets will never, ever, ever fragment in this manner.

An amazingly stupid claim given that a fragmented FMJ bullet was found on the floor of the limo that had two pieces which were positively matched to Oswald's rifle.
Quote


2. Multiple eyewitness accounts clearly indicate that Oswald was not on the sixth floor during the shooting. We now know that the WC was aware of strong eyewitness evidence that Oswald did not come down the stairs after the shooting but suppressed it.

Pure BS. The only person who said he saw Oswald at the time of the shooting was Howard Brennan and he saw him shooting the rifle. There are no witnesses who said they saw Oswald elsewhere at the time of the shooting. There is no one who gives Oswald an alibi.
Quote

3. The trajectory of JFK's back wound was slightly upward, both at its entry point and beyond. No sixth-floor gunman could have fired this shot. The only way that a bullet from the sixth-floor window could have hit JFK's back at an upward angle and then tunneled at an upward angle was if JFK had been leaning nearly 60 degrees forward when the bullet struck, a fact admitted by the chairman of the House Select Committee on Assassinations' (HSCA's) medical panel (FPP).

More BS. The entry wound on the back was higher than the exit wound in the front. If you think otherwise, tell us where you think the shot that hit JFK in the back was fired from, your evidence that supports that shot, and where you think that bullet went.
Quote

4. PSE polygraph analysis of Oswald's statements that he didn't shoot anyone and that he was just a patsy indicates he was telling the truth.

Oswald never took a polygraph. Do you just type things that pop into your head?
Quote

5. Three tests of the paraffin cast of Oswald's right cheek, including the super-sensitive neutron activation analysis (NAA) test, found no traces of nitrates, strongly indicating that he did not fire a rifle on the day of the assassination.

The three tests were the Dallas Police Department's diphenyl-benzidine paraffin test, the FBI's spectrographic paraffin test, and the Oak Ridge NAA paraffin test. The results of the NAA test were suppressed for years until pried loose by a FOIA lawsuit filed by Harold Weisberg.

We now know that Warren Commission (WC) attorney Norman Redlich advised WC member Alan Dulles about the NAA results in an internal memo, stating that they provided "no basis for concluding" that Oswald fired a rifle on 11/22/63. This damning memo only came to light only after a FOIA lawsuit filed by Weisberg.

An FBI agent fired Oswald's rifle and then took a paraffin test on his right cheek. He too tested negative, proving the Carcano could be fired without leaving nitrates on the shooter's cheek. This was explained in the WCR. Have you ever read it?
Quote

6.The alleged shooting feat was far beyond Oswald's marksmanship ability. Oswald was not even remotely skilled or experienced enough to have performed the shooting feat that the WC claimed he did. Rifle tests have proven that the alleged shooting feat would have been extremely difficult even for an experienced, world-class rifleman.

Repeating a lie thousands of times over decades will not make it come true. Oswald was capable of consistently hitting a target at ranges of 200 yards and more in order to twice qualify by USMC standards. That was without the aid of a scope. When he shot JFK, his longest shot was only 88 yards and was aided by a scope.
Quote

7. Oswald had no motive for shooting JFK. By all accounts, he admired JFK. In the days leading up to the assassination, Oswald was talking with his wife Marina about getting back together and getting their own apartment.

Many WC defenders claim that Oswald shot JFK to prove to the Cubans and/or the Soviets that he was devoted to the Marxist cause, but Oswald behaved nothing like an ideologically motivated assassin. Instead, he fiercely denied shooting JFK at every opportunity, told his family not to believe the "so-called evidence" against him, and said he was a patsy. In contrast, throughout history, assassins who were motivated by ideology have proudly taken credit for their crimes. Oswald did the opposite.

Oswald had a motive. He just didn't tell anybody what it was. The fact that his motive can't be proven doesn't mean he didn't have one.
Quote

8. HSCA investigators Ed Lopez and Dan Hardway found evidence that someone was impersonating Oswald in Mexico City about two months before the assassination. The committee decided to suppress the explosive Lopez-Hardway report that presented this evidence, but the report was released in redacted form in 1996 and in a less-redacted form in 2003.

Tell us how that proves Oswald did not shoot JFK in Dallas on 11/22/1963.
Quote

9. Anti-Castro Cubans were trying to frame Oswald for the assassination some two months ahead of time. This was revealed by Silvio Odio and  corroborated by her sister Annie in 1964. The HSCA, to its great credit, acknowledged that Silvia Odio's account is credible.

We now know that the WC was aware of Odio's account and knew she was a credible witness. In an internal WC memo, one of the Commission’s attorneys, David Slawson, said Odio was “checked out thoroughly” and that “the evidence is unanimously favorable, both as to her character and reliability, and as to her intelligence." Another one of the WC's attorneys, Wesley Liebeler, in another internal memo, expressed doubts about the Commission's rejection of Odio's account, saying "Odio may well be right" and warned that the WC would "look bad if it turns out" she was telling the truth. Nevertheless, the WC rejected Odio's account as "mistaken."

Tell us how those Cubans knew two months in advance that JFK's motorcade would be routed right past Oswald's workplace. It would have been pretty silly to try to frame Oswald without knowing that?
Quote

10. When we look at the evidence that supposedly proves Oswald's guilt, we find serious problems with it in virtually every instance. Those few items of evidence that are not fraught with problems are of an indirect nature and do not necessarily prove of his guilt.

Indirect my aching ass. We don't find serious problems with the evidence. Only dedicated Oswald deniers such as yourself reach for any excuse imaginable to dismiss each and every piece of conclusive evidence of Oswald's guilt. The is no universe where the body of evidence could point to Oswald's guilt if he were actually innocent.
Quote

In an interview with the Dallas Morning News in November 1969, none other than Dallas police chief Jesse Curry said there was no hard evidence that proved Oswald fired a rifle from the sixth-floor window:

We don't have any proof that Oswald fired the rifle, and never did. Nobody's yet been able to put him in that building with a gun in his hand.

Curry made similar statements in other interviews.

As just one example of the problems with the supposed evidence against Oswald, let's briefly consider the latent palmprint that the Dallas police belatedly claimed to have found on the barrel of the alleged murder weapon.

Lt. J. C. Day claimed to have discovered the latent palmprint on the night of the assassination at around 8:00 PM. Yet, he said nothing about the palmprint to the FBI when he handed over the rifle and other evidence to the FBI the next day, and the palmprint was not forwarded to the FBI until seven days later.

Lt. Day said he could still see the palmprint on the barrel after he lifted it. In fact, he said it was so visible that he thought it was the FBI's "best bet" in terms of fingerprint evidence on the rifle (4 H 261). Yet, when the rifle was examined just hours later by the FBI's Sebastian Latona, not only did Latona find no prints on the barrel, partial or otherwise, but he found no evidence that the barrel had even
been processed for prints.


Incredibly, Lt. Day failed to take a single photo of the palmprint, even though he took photos of the worthless prints on the rifle's trigger guard.

When asked to explain this shocking violation of standard police procedure, Lt. Day said he didn't take photos of the palmprint because Chief Curry called him at around 8:30 and told him to stop all work on the rifle because the FBI would finish what he had started. However, by Lt. Day's own admission, he took a photo of the rifle after Chief Curry called him, but still didn't take a photo of the all-important palmprint.

We now know that even the WC had doubts about the palmprint. An FBI memo released years after the WC dissolved reveals that the Commission's chief counsel, J. Lee Rankin, told the FBI that there was "serious doubt in the minds of the Commission as to whether or not the palm impression that has been obtained from the Dallas Police Department is a legitimate latent palm impression removed from the rifle barrel or whether it was obtained from some other source."

We also now know that when the FBI asked Lt. Day to sign a sworn statement about how he obtained the palmprint, he refused.

These are just some of the problems with the latent palmprint, yet pro-WC books cite the palmprint as strong evidence of Oswald's guilt. For more information on the reasons to doubt the palmprint's value as evidence, see my article https://drive.google.com/file/d/1NzWhdO-Ak3nbuxl8vsy62-fpLTBMBvPx/view?usp=sharing]"Was Oswald's Palmprint Planted
on the Alleged Murder Weapon? Some Questions About the Latent Palmprint"[/url]
.

Duncan should retitle this thread, 10 Reasons to Laugh at Michael T. Griffith. Not that we needed more reasons to do that.
24
I think it would be worthwhile to quote more of what Dr. Mantik says about windshield damage in Altgens 6 and in pre-Z256 frames of the Zapruder film:

Roy Schaeffer of Dayton, Ohio, claims first discovery of the windshield damage seen in the Altgens 6 photographs. No one has disputed this. Schaeffer was at the Dayton Daily News when he received the Mary Moorman and the Altgens 6 photographs and removed them from the Thermofax machine at 7:15 a.m., on Saturday, November 23, 1963. He is considered “an expert of the highest order, with intricate knowledge of the newspaper business of the late ‘50s and early ‘60s and beyond.”    Schaeffer, in his unpublished article, “A Matter of a Reasonable Doubt,” claimed that Z-222 shows the windshield hole.

At Z-230, a white dot of reflected light is visible on the limousine windshield. As viewed from the front, this appears just above and to the right of the rearview mirror (Figure 5.3).

Figure 5.3: Z-230. The circle identifies damage to the windshield. Z-230 is a fair representation of the windshield damage I saw on the first generation MPI images at the Sixth Floor Museum in Dallas. . . .

I asked Roy Schaeffer when he had first noticed the windshield damage. Here is his reply in an email to me on October 30, 2021:


Dr. Mantik,

It was near Christmas of 1963, after learning at Willard’s garage of bullet damage to the Presidential Limousine. I then noticed the bullet hole in the Presidential Limousine from looking at the Saturday Evening Post near New Years that year.

I told two editors from the Dayton Daily News that I remember, one Carl Byers, staff writer, and then Lou Rotterman, Washington Bureau Chief. You have to remember Ralph McGill was Pres. of the Atlanta Constitution. I also told later Jim Nickols, writer and friend at the Dayton Daily News. That was as far as it went. At that time, I was an Apprentice.

I didn’t notice the bullet hole on 11/23/1963. My father had been a friend of Humphrey since 1930. Sadly, when my father died in 1968 my mother got rid of all their correspondence. After that, from time to time, I would mention it at the newspaper. As far as going to the outside media, I didn’t until 1991, Channel 22, ABC news, Dayton.

Roy Schaeffer
(The Assassination of President John F. Kennedy: The Final Analysis, 2024, pp. 287-289, 343)

Anthony Edward DeFiore discussed the windshield damage seen in Altgens 6 and used to have good-quality enlargements of Altgens 6 on his website that enabled you to see the damage, but his site is no longer active.

Here is a YouTube video titled JFK - Altgens Photo 6 Colorized: Bullet Hole Clearly Visible In Windshield

I should have titled this thread "Why Altgens 6 and Pre-Z256 Zapruder Frames Refute the Lone-Gunman Theory," because the windshield damage is even more visible in the MPI large-frame version of the Zapruder film in a number of frames before Z256. You can get the MPI version on DVD and view it yourself. Here's one link to it:

https://www.mpihomevideo.com/products/image-of-an-assasination-a-new-look-at-the-zapruder-film-dvd

I can see windshield damage in Z227-230 in my copy of the MPI version when I view it on my 55-inch HD flat-screen TV. As Dr. Mantik notes, the damage is especially visible in Z229-230. I do not have the advantage of viewing individual large-format transparencies as Dr. Mantik was able to do at the Sixth Floor Museum, but I can see with my own eyes the damage he describes as being readily visible in Z229-230 on my DVD copy of the MPI digitally enlarged version of the film.

   So Schaeffer has, "...intricate knowledge of the newspaper business..."? So what. This has absolutely Nothing to do with his ability to examine a JFK Assassination Photo hot off  that 1963 "Thermofax machine". Seriously?
25
One of the silliest theories proposed regarding the JFKA.

   Though this "theory" has no Proof, neither does the SBT. Yet the SBT is routinely embraced as being legit. The SA Hickey accidental firing of the AR-15 is certainly not "silly". I don't believe the AR-15 was responsible for the JFK Head Explosion, but an accidental missed shot(s) fired from that gun is very possible. This accidental firing would explain the smell of gunpowder stretching down Elm St as this fired weapon inside the Queen Mary traveled down Elm St and then onto the Stemmons Fwy On-Ramp.
26
Here are 10 reasons to believe Lee Harvey Oswald did not shoot JFK:

1. The ammo that hit JFK's head behaved nothing like the ammo that Oswald allegedly used.

The ammo that hit Kennedy's head shattered into dozens of tiny fragments (practically particles) and a few larger fragments, deposited at least three fragments on the rear outer table of the skull, and left two fragments in the very front of the skull near the right orbit. Oswald allegedly used FMJ bullets, but FMJ bullets will never, ever, ever fragment in this manner.

2. Multiple eyewitness accounts clearly indicate that Oswald was not on the sixth floor during the shooting. We now know that the WC was aware of strong eyewitness evidence that Oswald did not come down the stairs after the shooting but suppressed it.

3. The trajectory of JFK's back wound was slightly upward, both at its entry point and beyond. No sixth-floor gunman could have fired this shot. The only way that a bullet from the sixth-floor window could have hit JFK's back at an upward angle and then tunneled at an upward angle was if JFK had been leaning nearly 60 degrees forward when the bullet struck, a fact admitted by the chairman of the House Select Committee on Assassinations' (HSCA's) medical panel (FPP).

4. PSE (aka VSA) polygraph analysis of Oswald's statements that he didn't shoot anyone and that he was just a patsy indicates he was telling the truth.

5. Three tests of the paraffin cast of Oswald's right cheek, including the super-sensitive neutron activation analysis (NAA) test, found no traces of nitrates, strongly indicating that he did not fire a rifle on the day of the assassination.

The three tests were the Dallas Police Department's diphenyl-benzidine paraffin test, the FBI's spectrographic paraffin test, and the Oak Ridge NAA paraffin test. The results of the NAA test were suppressed for years until pried loose by a FOIA lawsuit filed by Harold Weisberg.

We now know that Warren Commission (WC) attorney Norman Redlich advised WC member Alan Dulles about the NAA results in an internal memo, stating that they provided "no basis for concluding" that Oswald fired a rifle on 11/22/63. This damning memo only came to light only after a FOIA lawsuit filed by Weisberg.

6.The alleged shooting feat was far beyond Oswald's marksmanship ability. Oswald was not even remotely skilled or experienced enough to have performed the shooting feat that the WC claimed he did. Rifle tests have proven that the alleged shooting feat would have been extremely difficult even for an experienced, world-class rifleman.

7. Oswald had no motive for shooting JFK. By all accounts, he admired JFK. In the days leading up to the assassination, Oswald was talking with his wife Marina about getting back together and getting their own apartment.

Many WC defenders claim that Oswald shot JFK to prove to the Cubans and/or the Soviets that he was devoted to the Marxist cause, but Oswald behaved nothing like an ideologically motivated assassin. Instead, he fiercely denied shooting JFK at every opportunity, told his family not to believe the "so-called evidence" against him, and said he was a patsy. In contrast, throughout history, assassins who were motivated by ideology have proudly taken credit for their crimes. Oswald did the opposite.

8. HSCA investigators Ed Lopez and Dan Hardway found evidence that someone was impersonating Oswald in Mexico City about two months before the assassination. The committee decided to suppress the explosive Lopez-Hardway report that presented this evidence, but the report was released in redacted form in 1996 and in a less-redacted form in 2003.

9. Anti-Castro Cubans were trying to frame Oswald for the assassination some two months ahead of time. This was revealed by Silvio Odio and  corroborated by her sister Annie in 1964. The HSCA, to its great credit, acknowledged that Silvia Odio's account is credible.

We now know that the WC was aware of Odio's account and knew she was a credible witness. In an internal WC memo, one of the Commission’s attorneys, David Slawson, said Odio was “checked out thoroughly” and that “the evidence is unanimously favorable, both as to her character and reliability, and as to her intelligence." Another one of the WC's attorneys, Wesley Liebeler, in another internal memo, expressed doubts about the Commission's rejection of Odio's account, saying "Odio may well be right" and warned that the WC would "look bad if it turns out" she was telling the truth. Nevertheless, the WC rejected Odio's account as "mistaken."

10. When we look at the evidence that supposedly proves Oswald's guilt, we find serious problems with it in virtually every instance. Those few items of evidence that are not fraught with problems are of an indirect nature and do not necessarily prove of his guilt.

In an interview with the Dallas Morning News in November 1969, none other than Dallas police chief Jesse Curry said there was no hard evidence that proved Oswald fired a rifle from the sixth-floor window:

We don't have any proof that Oswald fired the rifle, and never did. Nobody's yet been able to put him in that building with a gun in his hand.

Curry made similar statements in other interviews.

As just one example of the problems with the supposed evidence against Oswald, let's briefly consider the latent palmprint that the Dallas police belatedly claimed to have found on the barrel of the alleged murder weapon.

Lt. J. C. Day claimed to have discovered the latent palmprint on the night of the assassination at around 8:00 PM. Yet, he said nothing about the palmprint to the FBI when he handed over the rifle and other evidence to the FBI the next day, and the palmprint was not forwarded to the FBI until seven days later.

Lt. Day said he could still see the palmprint on the barrel after he lifted it. In fact, he said it was so visible that he thought it was the FBI's "best bet" in terms of fingerprint evidence on the rifle (4 H 261). Yet, when the rifle was examined just hours later by the FBI's Sebastian Latona, not only did Latona find no prints on the barrel, partial or otherwise, but he found no evidence that the barrel had even been processed for prints.

Incredibly, Lt. Day failed to take a single photo of the palmprint, even though he took photos of the worthless prints on the rifle's trigger guard.

When asked to explain this shocking violation of standard police procedure, Lt. Day said he didn't take photos of the palmprint because Chief Curry called him at around 8:30 and told him to stop all work on the rifle because the FBI would finish what he had started. However, by Lt. Day's own admission, he took a photo of the rifle after Chief Curry called him, but still didn't take a photo of the all-important palmprint.

We now know that even the WC had doubts about the palmprint. An FBI memo released years after the WC dissolved reveals that the Commission's chief counsel, J. Lee Rankin, told the FBI that there was "serious doubt in the minds of the Commission as to whether or not the palm impression that has been obtained from the Dallas Police Department is a legitimate latent palm impression removed from the rifle barrel or whether it was obtained from some other source."

We also now know that when the FBI asked Lt. Day to sign a sworn statement about how he obtained the palmprint, he refused.

These are just some of the problems with the latent palmprint, yet pro-WC books cite the palmprint as strong evidence of Oswald's guilt. For more information on the reasons to doubt the palmprint's value as evidence, see my article "Was Oswald's Palmprint Planted
on the Alleged Murder Weapon? Some Questions About the Latent Palmprint."
27

The problem is that you guys have no bullet that can explain the pre-Z256 windshield damage. But, rather than admit this, it looks like you're going to claim that no such damage existed before Z256.


I don't think any of us can explain things that exist only in your head. We don't hear the voices either.
28
Here's Z260.

https://assassinationresearch.com/zfilm/z260.jpg

Does anybody see damage to the windshield?

29
Are you for real? I didn't say anyone disputed the windshield was damaged. Can you read?

I said I've never met anyone who has denied that windshield damage can be seen in Altgens 6. It can also be seen in Altgens 7. Good grief, Roy Schaeffer noticed and talked about the windshield damage visible in Altgens 6 way back in the 1960s. This has been discussed in many books.

I'm curious: Do you also deny that windshield damage can be seen in a number of Zapruder frames before Z233, especially in the MPI large-format version of the film?

So it's looking like the LNer tactic is going to be to just deny that Altgens 6 and pre-Z233 Zapruder frames show windshield damage. You're gonna say, "I don't see that!" Well, no one can force you to admit seeing what you don't want to admit seeing.

The problem is that you guys have no bullet that can explain the pre-Z256 windshield damage. But, rather than admit this, it looks like you're going to claim that no such damage existed before Z256.

Here's what Dr. Mantik says about the windshield damage in his 2024 book The Assassination of President John F. Kennedy: The Final Analysis:

On Friday, November 20, 2009, I viewed the first generation, large format MPI transparencies of the Zapruder film at the Sixth Floor Museum in Dallas with Sydney Wilkinson, a Zapruder film expert. The MPI transparencies had incredible clarity. The first sign of windshield damage appears at Z-193. This is uncannily consistent with the National Photographic Interpretation Center (NPIC) conclusion that JFK was hit in the throat at Z-190. Quite naïvely, as I examined the MPI images, I had forgotten this NPIC conclusion, so my observations were quite unbiased.

In these MPI images, this windshield site is obscured during Z-203 to Z-214, but the damage is visible (consistently at the same site) in Z-215 to Z-232. It is especially obvious in Z-229 and Z-230, but it is more difficult to see after Z-232. The windshield damage in the Zapruder frames appears at the same site as seen in Altgens 6 and Altgens 7. Roy’s description is also consistent with this.

I would emphasize that if the shot had occurred earlier than Z-222 (i.e., that was Roy’s selected frame), then a windshield transit would have been more likely—because the windshield elevation would have been higher. The Altgens 6 photograph (Figure 5.4) was taken at about Z-255, just thirty frames after Z-225 (i.e., less than two seconds later); it shows windshield damage consistent with a South Knoll shot. Shaeffer was the first to notice this windshield damage that lay very near JFK’s left ear (in the Altgens 6—see Figure 5.4). He observed that “the small spiral nebula has a dark spot at the center, strongly suggesting a through-and-through bullet hole.”   

Of note, the official view is that the windshield damage was caused by a fragment from the headshot; that is nonsense, of course—because the headshots occurred after Z-300, far too late to affect the windshield at Z-255.

Figure 5.4: Altgens 6. The circle highlights damage to the windshield. The damage to the windshield can also be seen in Altgens 7 (Figures 5.5 and 5.6), taken as the limousine sped toward the Triple Overpass. (The Assassination of President John F. Kennedy: The Final Analysis, 2024, pp. 289-291)


What a joke you are! It tends to raise a red flag with reasonable people when Jim Fetzer and his collaborators claim to have discovered something new, but with you it seems to automatically become undisputed fact.

Let's turn back time and give the word to Fetzer in Assassination Science (1998).

Quote
What [Fetzer collaborator] Schaeffer noticed is that, slightly to the right and barely above the upper-right-hand comer of the center-mounted rear-view mirror (looking toward the vehicle as it is displayed in the photograph), there is something that has the appearance of a small spiral nebula at exactly the location the President's left ear would be visible were it not obscured by a white image. The small spiral nebula has a dark spot at the center, strongly suggesting a through-and-through bullet hole. This is quite different from the windshield that the Secret Service produced, which shows a star-like configuration.

Groden (1993), p. 36, has published photos of both, side by side.

Here's what Groden had to say in The Killing of a President (1993). Notice that even he doesn't see any damage (my emphasis below).

Quote
Taken by Ike Altgens just after the first four [sic!] shots, the photo (right) shows the windshield of the President's car with no sign of damage from gunfire.

So what did Fetzer's collaborator discover? See below.



Hmm, that doesn't look entirely convincing to me, but let's hear what serious researchers like Barb Junkkarinen, Jerry Logan & Josiah Thompson think.

ETERNAL RETURN: A HOLE THROUGH THE WINDSHIELD? (2009)

Quote
The feature in the photograph that Fetzer believes is a through-and-through bullet hole in the windshield he describes as “a small spiral nebula.” Good copies of the Altgens photo show it to be not a feature of the windshield. Rather it is a pattern formed by the gathering of fabric in the dress of a woman spectator standing in the background. The Altgens #6 photo demonstrates that the limousine windshield is not damaged at Zapruder frame 255.

Quote
Since the late 1960s, it has been well-known that Altgens #6 (taken at Z 255) shows an undamaged windshield while Altgens #7 (taken seconds later) shows damage to the windshield. Hence, whatever damage was incurred by the windshield it was incurred during this time interval. More importantly, the location and character of damage to the windshield showing in Altgens #7 matches what we see in a later photo of the windshield taken during Frazier’s examination. A photo of the limousine taken at Parkland Hospital may also show damage to the windshield at the location apparent in the Altgens and FBI photos.

Can you still claim, with a straight face, that it's an undisputed fact that the damage is visible in Altgens 6?

The crop below is from the best scan I have of the image. Gee, could that "nebula" above JFK's left shoulder actually be from the clothing of a person in the background, as suggested by Junkkarinen, et al?

30
I think it would be worthwhile to quote more of what Dr. Mantik says about windshield damage in Altgens 6 and in pre-Z256 frames of the Zapruder film:

Roy Schaeffer of Dayton, Ohio, claims first discovery of the windshield damage seen in the Altgens 6 photographs. No one has disputed this. Schaeffer was at the Dayton Daily News when he received the Mary Moorman and the Altgens 6 photographs and removed them from the Thermofax machine at 7:15 a.m., on Saturday, November 23, 1963. He is considered “an expert of the highest order, with intricate knowledge of the newspaper business of the late ‘50s and early ‘60s and beyond.”    Schaeffer, in his unpublished article, “A Matter of a Reasonable Doubt,” claimed that Z-222 shows the windshield hole.

At Z-230, a white dot of reflected light is visible on the limousine windshield. As viewed from the front, this appears just above and to the right of the rearview mirror (Figure 5.3).

Figure 5.3: Z-230. The circle identifies damage to the windshield. Z-230 is a fair representation of the windshield damage I saw on the first generation MPI images at the Sixth Floor Museum in Dallas. . . .

I asked Roy Schaeffer when he had first noticed the windshield damage. Here is his reply in an email to me on October 30, 2021:


Dr. Mantik,

It was near Christmas of 1963, after learning at Willard’s garage of bullet damage to the Presidential Limousine. I then noticed the bullet hole in the Presidential Limousine from looking at the Saturday Evening Post near New Years that year.

I told two editors from the Dayton Daily News that I remember, one Carl Byers, staff writer, and then Lou Rotterman, Washington Bureau Chief. You have to remember Ralph McGill was Pres. of the Atlanta Constitution. I also told later Jim Nickols, writer and friend at the Dayton Daily News. That was as far as it went. At that time, I was an Apprentice.

I didn’t notice the bullet hole on 11/23/1963. My father had been a friend of Humphrey since 1930. Sadly, when my father died in 1968 my mother got rid of all their correspondence. After that, from time to time, I would mention it at the newspaper. As far as going to the outside media, I didn’t until 1991, Channel 22, ABC news, Dayton.

Roy Schaeffer
(The Assassination of President John F. Kennedy: The Final Analysis, 2024, pp. 287-289, 343)

Anthony Edward DeFiore discussed the windshield damage seen in Altgens 6 and used to have good-quality enlargements of Altgens 6 on his website that enabled you to see the damage, but his site is no longer active.

Here is a YouTube video titled JFK - Altgens Photo 6 Colorized: Bullet Hole Clearly Visible In Windshield

I should have titled this thread "Why Altgens 6 and Pre-Z256 Zapruder Frames Refute the Lone-Gunman Theory," because the windshield damage is even more visible in the MPI large-frame version of the Zapruder film in a number of frames before Z256. You can get the MPI version on DVD and view it yourself. Here's one link to it:

https://www.mpihomevideo.com/products/image-of-an-assasination-a-new-look-at-the-zapruder-film-dvd

I can see windshield damage in Z227-230 in my copy of the MPI version when I view it on my 55-inch HD flat-screen TV. As Dr. Mantik notes, the damage is especially visible in Z229-230. I do not have the advantage of viewing individual large-format transparencies as Dr. Mantik was able to do at the Sixth Floor Museum, but I can see with my own eyes the damage he describes as being readily visible in Z229-230 on my DVD copy of the MPI digitally enlarged version of the film.
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