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21
While one is always entitled to engage in thought experiments, a thought experiment taking Vicki Adams' story at face value seems a stretch to me in light of the fact that Sandra Styles, her companion, always said she thought Vicki's time estimate was at least somewhat off and, more importantly, was adamant that Shelley and Lovelady were not there. Occam (or Ockham, if you prefer) tells me a more plausible thought experiment has Vicki conflating her and Styles' trip down the stairs with a slightly later encounter by her with Shelley and Lovelady when they reentered the TSBD. But, hey, that's just my and Occam's little thought experiment.

Bart Kamp summarizes what Styles repeatedly told Barry Ernest here: http://www.prayer-man.com/tsbd/sandra-styles/. Sean Murphy also followed up with her after Ernest's book came out. I also found a long discussion at Greg Parker's forum where the sentiment seemed to be that the "Shelley and Lovelady" question and answer had been fiendishly inserted into Vicki's actual WC testimony precisely to make it seem that she and Styles must have left the fourth floor window later than she thiought. Greg seemed to find this unlikely, and my thought experiment doesn't require any such shenanigans by the WC; in mine, the two cuties can have come down the stairs however quickly you like, with Vicki simply being a bit off as to when she saw Shelley and Lovelady.

(Lots of Sandra Styles' stuff for sale on eBay. Don't miss your chance: https://www.ebay.com/itm/175838680679. I may have got burnt on $1200 worth of Bogus Imposter Haygood autographs, but this Styles stuff is the real deal.)

Adams' version of events is supported by the Tom Dillard pic, the Stroud document, the fact she never encountered Truly and Baker (and vice versa) and Baker's observation of two white men hanging around the area Adams said Shelley and Lovelady were and at the same time, roughly 60 seconds after the shooting.
She is a totally credible witness of impeccable character.

Just for argument's sake though...
Let's say you do have some intelligence and can manage this rudimentary thought experiment, you must agree that the only way for Shelley and Lovelady to reach the area near the freight elevators within 60 seconds is to enter the building through the front entrance moments after the shooting.
You must agree, as part of the thought experiment of course, that taking Adams' testimony at face value would disprove your identification of Shelley and Lovelady in Darnell.
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The TSBD photo evidence only showed 2 spent bullet shell casings (used) and 1 live round (unused).
23
While one is always entitled to engage in thought experiments, a thought experiment taking Vicki Adams' story at face value seems a stretch to me in light of the fact that Sandra Styles, her companion, always said she thought Vicki's time estimate was at least somewhat off and, more importantly, was adamant that Shelley and Lovelady were not there. Occam (or Ockham, if you prefer) tells me a more plausible thought experiment has Vicki conflating her and Styles' trip down the stairs with a slightly later encounter by her with Shelley and Lovelady when they reentered the TSBD. But, hey, that's just my and Occam's little thought experiment.

Bart Kamp summarizes what Styles repeatedly told Barry Ernest here: http://www.prayer-man.com/tsbd/sandra-styles/. Sean Murphy also followed up with her after Ernest's book came out. I also found a long discussion at Greg Parker's forum where the sentiment seemed to be that the "Shelley and Lovelady" question and answer had been fiendishly inserted into Vicki's actual WC testimony precisely to make it seem that she and Styles must have left the fourth floor window later than she thiought. Greg seemed to find this unlikely, and my thought experiment doesn't require any such shenanigans by the WC; in mine, the two cuties can have come down the stairs however quickly you like, with Vicki simply being a bit off as to when she saw Shelley and Lovelady.

(Lots of Sandra Styles' stuff for sale on eBay. Don't miss your chance: https://www.ebay.com/itm/175838680679. I may have got burnt on $1200 worth of Bogus Imposter Haygood autographs, but this Styles stuff is the real deal.)
24
JFK Assassination Discussion & Debate / Re: The First Shot
« Last post by Dan O'meara on Today at 12:44:11 AM »
Oswald's first, missing-everything, shot was at "Z-124," half-a-second before Zapruder resumed filming at Z-133, as evidenced by the fact that:

1) Glenn Bennett (who said he saw a bullet strike JFK in the back after he heard a "firecracker-like" sound) started leaning far to his right around Z-150 to see around Dave Powers.

2) George Hickey started leaning over the side of the car and looking down at the pavement in Z-146.

3) Rosemary Willis glanced at the TSBD while she was running and looked in that direction after she stopped running.

4)  All five passengers of the limo quickly turned their heads (in different directions) between Z-140 and Z-150.

5) Mary Woodward said there were three shots, that the first shot sounded like a backfire, that JFK and Jackie turned their heads in response to it, and that the first shot missed everything. (JFK turned his head quickly to his left starting in Z-143; Jackie extended and accelerated her already left head turn to be captured in the Z-161 Robert Croft photo with a concerned look on her face.)

6) Etc. Etc. Etc.

Poor lil tommy and his debunked little theory.
Let's have a look at some of the tripe you post:

1) Glenn Bennett (who said he saw a bullet strike JFK in the back after he heard a "firecracker-like" sound) started leaning far to his right around Z-150 to see around Dave Powers.

This is total  BS: from start to finish.
That you believe you can tell he was trying to "see around Dave Powers" tells us all we need to know about how you like to add a little story to your nonsense interpretations of the Z-film.

2) George Hickey started leaning over the side of the car and looking down at the pavement in Z-146

Hickey definitively states that his response to the first shot was to look to his right and rear.
You know this.
It's another example of the brazen lies you are willing to perpetuate in order to cling on to your debunked theory.

3) Rosemary Willis glanced at the TSBD while she was running and looked in that direction after she stopped running.

ROSEMARY WILLIS??
 :D :D :D

4)  All five passengers of the limo quickly turned their heads (in different directions) between Z-140 and Z-150.e
Yet another of your desperate lies.
Aren't you aware we can all see the Z-film?

5) Mary Woodward said there were three shots, that the first shot sounded like a backfire, that JFK and Jackie turned their heads in response to it, and that the first shot missed everything. (JFK turned his head quickly to his left starting in Z-143; Jackie extended and accelerated her already left head turn to be captured in the Z-161 Robert Croft photo with a concerned look on her face.)


Woodward said that she and her friends called out to attract the attention of JFK and Jackie as they passed by.
She says that both Jackie and JFK turned and waved. We see all four occupants of the limo turning their heads towards Woodward and her friends.
JFK waves and smiles. We see him do this in the Z-film just before the limo passes behind the Stemmons sign.
Woodward is unequivocal that the first shot happened just after this.
Woodward completely disproves your silly notion of such an early shot.

Time for you to hide away for a while  Thumb1:
25
Good presentation, but not quite up there with the legend Michael Brownlow yet. Need to jazz things up. Need more pazazz  :D

Yes, I need to tell a few porky pies and when challenged on them, simply claim I saw proof in the Dallas Police city records.
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JFK Assassination Discussion & Debate / Re: The First Shot
« Last post by Dan O'meara on Today at 12:29:35 AM »
Projecting?

You choose to ignore 90+% of the witnesses who heard 3 shots and are corroborated by 3 spent shells in the sniper's nest.

As I have posted on many occasions, Pat Speer collected and analysed the statements of over 200 witnesses who described hearing the shots.
Over 160 witnesses, more than three quarters, stated they heard 3 audible shots.
You have zero knowledge regarding how my opinion has been formed by the mass of evidence regarding the issue of when the first shot occurred.
In some of my recent posts I have presented parts of this mass of evidence pointing towards a first shot that passed through both men at z222/z223.
You, on the other hand, have presented a single distorted observation from a single traumatised witness.
You are deluded and know nothing about this subject.


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JFK Assassination Discussion & Debate / Re: The First Shot
« Last post by Tom Graves on Today at 12:22:54 AM »
Taking the earlier difficult shot gave Oswald an extra chance to hit JFK. He  could still be able to take the easier later shots if he missed which he did. It could be argued that by taking the early first shot, he could have cost himself a chance at the later shots, but that didn't happen. That was a decision Oswald had to make and the fact someone else might have made a different choice proves nothing. Given that Oswald eventually succeeded in what he was trying to do, I see no reason to second guess his choice.

Oswald's first, missing-everything, shot, was at "Z-124," half-a-second before Zapruder resumed filming at Z-133, as evidenced by the fact that:

1) Secret Service Agent Glenn Bennett (who said he saw a bullet strike JFK in the back after he heard a "firecracker-like" sound) started leaning far to his right around Z-150 to see around Dave Powers to see if JFK was okay.

2) Secret Service Agent George Hickey started leaning over the side of the car and looking down at the pavement in Z-146.

3) Rosemary Willis glanced at the TSBD while she was running and looked in that direction after she stopped running.

4)  All five passengers of the limo quickly turned their heads (in different directions) between Z-140 and Z-150.

5) Mary Woodward said there were three shots, that the first shot sounded like a backfire, that JFK and Jackie turned their heads in response to it, and that the first shot missed everything. (JFK turned his head quickly to his left starting in Z-143; Jackie extended and accelerated her already left head turn to be "captured" in the Z-161 Robert Croft photo with a concerned look on her face.)

6) In Z-180 we see that John Connally has turned his head back far to his right in his futile attempt to catch a glimpse of JFK (who has turned his head far to his right and is waving to Mary Woodward) over his right shoulder.
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JFK Assassination Discussion & Debate / Re: The First Shot
« Last post by John Corbett on Today at 12:06:50 AM »
No, it doesn't.
You have chosen a single observation from a traumatised memory and have convinced yourself you see this in the Z-film.
You completely ignore 90% of what Connally actually said about that shooting.
But because you think it then it must be a fact.
You're completely delusional.

Projecting?

You choose to ignore 90+% of the witnesses who heard 3 shots and are corroborated by 3 spent shells in the sniper's nest.
29
I can detect nothing about Secret Service Agent Glen Bennett's position from the Z-153 frame. The image is too small and blurry to decipher anything about his position.

Can you see the oblong-shaped, kinda vertically aligned flesh-colored object about the size of a football in the passenger's side back-seat of the Secret Service Follow-up car in Z-150 and Z-153?

Hint: That's Glen Bennett's face, and it's leaning much farther over to his right in Z-153 than it was in Z-150.

Why?

Because he was trying to see around Dave Powers in front of him to see if JFK was okay after Oswald's first, missing-everything, shot, at "Z-124," half-a-second before Zapruder resumed filming at Z-133.

PS Note that Secret Service Agent George Hickey, opposite Bennett in the back seat, leaned over the side of the car and looked down at the pavement (he evidently thought a firecracker had exploded there), in Z-150 and especially in Z-153.
30
JFK Assassination Discussion & Debate / Re: The First Shot
« Last post by Dan O'meara on Yesterday at 11:49:45 PM »
Zapruder corroborates Connally. That's what makes him credible.

No, it doesn't.
You have chosen a single observation from a traumatised memory and have convinced yourself you see this in the Z-film.
You completely ignore 90% of what Connally actually said about that shooting.
But because you think it then it must be a fact.
You're completely delusional.
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