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21
The JFK Assassination - Discussion & Debate / Re: The First Shot
« Last post by John Corbett on Yesterday at 10:07:28 PM »
And a bullet looking anything like CE399 strikes a rib so hard it broke at the spine and felt like a sucker punch to the back, blasted out 10 cm of the rib farther along, then shattered the radius in five pieces before bending around the radius - not deflecting away from the point of contact and not going through it either - and entered the left thigh where it embeds a piece of lead in the femur - that is NOT impossible?  What is your test for impossibility?
You are on to me now.  I fabricated all of the "evidence" from voices in my head and then made devilishly clever moves to plant my fabrications into the public record:

  • T.E. Moore (24 H 534, "President KENNEDY had reached the Thornton Freeway
    sign, a shot was fired and Mr. MOORE observed the President slumping forward in
    the Presidential car.")
  • Nellie Connally (4 H 147. "I turned over my right shoulder and looked back, and saw
    the President as he had both hands at his neck.")
  • David Powers (7 H 473: "I noticed then that the President moved quite far to his left
    after the shot from the extreme right hand side where he had been sitting. There was a
    second shot and Governor Connally disappeared from sight and then there was a third
    shot which took off the top of the President’s head")
  • Gayle Newman (19 H 488: "President Kennedy kind of jumped like he was startled
    and covered his head with his hands and then raised up. After I heard the first shot,
    another shot sounded and Governor grabbed his chest and lay back on the seat of the
    car")
  • William Newman (19 H 490 "The President jumped up in his seat, and it looked like
    what I thought was a firecracker had went off and I thought he had realized it.")
  • John Chism (19 H 472 “When I saw the motorcade round the corner, the President
    was standing and waving to the crowd. And just as he got just about in front of me, he
    turned and waved at the crowd on this side of the street, the right side; at this point I
    heard what sounded like one shot, and I saw him, "The President," sit back in his seat
    and lean his head to his left side.”
  • Faye Chism (19 H 471 “As the President was coming through, I heard this first shot,
    and the President fell to his left.”)
  • James Altgens (7 H 520. He said his z255 shot was after first shot and before any
    other. It shows JFK reacting.)
  • George Hickey (CE1024, 18 H 761. Perhaps 2 or 3 seconds elapsed from the time I
    looked to the rear and then looked at the President. He was slumped forward and to
    his left, and was straightening up to an almost erect sitting position as I turned and
    looked. At the moment he was almost sitting erect I heard two reports which I thought
    were shots and that appeared to me completely different in sound than the first report
    and were in such rapid succession that there seemed to be practically no time element
    between them.”)
  • Sam Kinney (CE1024, 18 H 731. “As we completed the left turn and on a short
    distance, there was a shot. At this time I glanced from the tailights of the President's
    car that I use for gaging distances for driving. I saw the President lean toward the left
    and appeared to have grabbed his chest with right hand. There was a second of pause
    and then two more shots were heard”).
  • Paul Landis (CE1024, 18 H 758. Saw JFK move in response to first shot but thought
    he was just turning in the direction of the sound. Landis began to scan crowd,
    buildings and car before second shot was heard. He recalled only two shots.)
  • Cecil Ault (24 H 534. Viewing from court house on Houston. Reported to have seen
    JFK rise up in his seat after first shot.)
  • Harold Norman (3 H 191. “but I know I heard a shot, and then after I heard the shot,
    well, it seems as though the President, you know, slumped or something,”)
  • Malcolm Summers (Affidavit, 19 H 500 “The President's car had just come up in
    front of me when I heard a shot and saw the President slump down in the car and
    heard Mrs. Kennedy say, "Oh, no", then a second shot and then I hit the ground as I
    realized these were shots.”)
  • Mary Moorman (Affidavit, 19 H 487, “As I snapped the picture of President
    Kennedy, I heard a shot ring out. President Kennedy kind of slumped over.”
  • Jean Newman (Affidavit, 19 H 489, “The motorcade had just passed me when I heard
    that I thought was a firecracker at first, and the President had just passed me, because
    after he had just passed, there was a loud report, it just scared me, and I noticed that
    the President jumped, he sort of ducked his head down and I thought at the time that it
    probably scared him, too, just like it did me, because he flinched, like he jumped. I
    saw him put his elbows like this, with his hands on his chest.”)
  • Charles Brehm (Dallas Times Herald statement, Nov. 22, 1963 “The witness Brehm
    was shaking uncontrollably as he further described the shooting. ‘The first shot must
    not have been too solid, because he just slumped’.”)
  • Pierce Allman, (WFAA radio interview, in which he statyes that he thought “the
    President was ducking from the first shot”)

But as if that was not enough, I scrounged around and persuaded Ernest Brandt and his friend John Templin to come forward and provide additional lies that JFK reacted visibly to the first shot.

Your problem is you don't have a clue as to how to weigh evidence. Your continued blind faith in eyewitness accounts demonstrates that. You think because a witness tells you something, it becomes an established fact. I didn't count them but it looks like you just cited about 20 witnesses and you present their accounts as if they are empirical evidence. You have no idea how to corroborate what witnesses have said. You just believe any witness who tells a story that conforms with your pet theory which is a pretty good indication that the witness got something wrong because your scenario makes no sense. Witnesses are fallible and one fallible witness isn't much corroboration for another fallible witness. You've never understood that and you likely never will. You are too wedded to a ridiculous scenario you dreamed up about two decades ago.

Let's put it this way. If you are right, everyone who has ever studied the JFKA is wrong because I've never come across anyone who has ever argued for what you believe happened. Maybe you should create a sock puppet so you would have someone who agrees with you.
22
We don't know if JFK was grimacing in Z224 because his face wasn't visible.
You are right.  We don't know if he was grimacing at z224.  We also don't know that he wasn't reacting like that during the second or so he was behind the sign.  Your common sense then is to assume that he wasn't.  Your "common sense" is to assume that it was just an amazing coincidence that the first time he grimaced was the first frame when he came into Zapruder's view. I suggest that your definition of "common sense" is not all that common.
Quote
Because I am capable of exercising common sense. Reflex actions occur almost immediately after the stimulus.
Reflex actions do not occur in stages.
Yes there is. He stopped waving at the people to his right and started turning to face the front.
There is no evidence that JFK's reaction is a reflex.  A voluntary reaction will take at least 100 ms. to occur after the stimulus. A reflex reaction takes much less:  15-50 ms to start after the stimulus. So if JFK was shot at z223-224 as you suggest his reaction at z226 would not be a reflex.
24
The JFK Assassination - Discussion & Debate / Re: The First Shot
« Last post by Andrew Mason on Yesterday at 09:44:25 PM »
Your scenario is impossible.
And a bullet looking anything like CE399 strikes a rib so hard it broke at the spine and felt like a sucker punch to the back, blasted out 10 cm of the rib farther along, then shattered the radius in five pieces before bending around the radius - not deflecting away from the point of contact and not going through it either - and entered the left thigh where it embeds a piece of lead in the femur - that is NOT impossible?  What is your test for impossibility?

Quote
It's not the evidence that tells you JFK was struck by the first shot. That's the voices in your head telling you that.
You are on to me now.  I fabricated all of the "evidence" from voices in my head and then made devilishly clever moves to plant my fabrications into the public record:

  • T.E. Moore (24 H 534, "President KENNEDY had reached the Thornton Freeway
    sign, a shot was fired and Mr. MOORE observed the President slumping forward in
    the Presidential car.")
  • Nellie Connally (4 H 147. "I turned over my right shoulder and looked back, and saw
    the President as he had both hands at his neck.")
  • David Powers (7 H 473: "I noticed then that the President moved quite far to his left
    after the shot from the extreme right hand side where he had been sitting. There was a
    second shot and Governor Connally disappeared from sight and then there was a third
    shot which took off the top of the President’s head")
  • Gayle Newman (19 H 488: "President Kennedy kind of jumped like he was startled
    and covered his head with his hands and then raised up. After I heard the first shot,
    another shot sounded and Governor grabbed his chest and lay back on the seat of the
    car")
  • William Newman (19 H 490 "The President jumped up in his seat, and it looked like
    what I thought was a firecracker had went off and I thought he had realized it.")
  • John Chism (19 H 472 “When I saw the motorcade round the corner, the President
    was standing and waving to the crowd. And just as he got just about in front of me, he
    turned and waved at the crowd on this side of the street, the right side; at this point I
    heard what sounded like one shot, and I saw him, "The President," sit back in his seat
    and lean his head to his left side.”
  • Faye Chism (19 H 471 “As the President was coming through, I heard this first shot,
    and the President fell to his left.”)
  • James Altgens (7 H 520. He said his z255 shot was after first shot and before any
    other. It shows JFK reacting.)
  • George Hickey (CE1024, 18 H 761. Perhaps 2 or 3 seconds elapsed from the time I
    looked to the rear and then looked at the President. He was slumped forward and to
    his left, and was straightening up to an almost erect sitting position as I turned and
    looked. At the moment he was almost sitting erect I heard two reports which I thought
    were shots and that appeared to me completely different in sound than the first report
    and were in such rapid succession that there seemed to be practically no time element
    between them.”)
  • Sam Kinney (CE1024, 18 H 731. “As we completed the left turn and on a short
    distance, there was a shot. At this time I glanced from the tailights of the President's
    car that I use for gaging distances for driving. I saw the President lean toward the left
    and appeared to have grabbed his chest with right hand. There was a second of pause
    and then two more shots were heard”).
  • Paul Landis (CE1024, 18 H 758. Saw JFK move in response to first shot but thought
    he was just turning in the direction of the sound. Landis began to scan crowd,
    buildings and car before second shot was heard. He recalled only two shots.)
  • Cecil Ault (24 H 534. Viewing from court house on Houston. Reported to have seen
    JFK rise up in his seat after first shot.)
  • Harold Norman (3 H 191. “but I know I heard a shot, and then after I heard the shot,
    well, it seems as though the President, you know, slumped or something,”)
  • Malcolm Summers (Affidavit, 19 H 500 “The President's car had just come up in
    front of me when I heard a shot and saw the President slump down in the car and
    heard Mrs. Kennedy say, "Oh, no", then a second shot and then I hit the ground as I
    realized these were shots.”)
  • Mary Moorman (Affidavit, 19 H 487, “As I snapped the picture of President
    Kennedy, I heard a shot ring out. President Kennedy kind of slumped over.”
  • Jean Newman (Affidavit, 19 H 489, “The motorcade had just passed me when I heard
    that I thought was a firecracker at first, and the President had just passed me, because
    after he had just passed, there was a loud report, it just scared me, and I noticed that
    the President jumped, he sort of ducked his head down and I thought at the time that it
    probably scared him, too, just like it did me, because he flinched, like he jumped. I
    saw him put his elbows like this, with his hands on his chest.”)
  • Charles Brehm (Dallas Times Herald statement, Nov. 22, 1963 “The witness Brehm
    was shaking uncontrollably as he further described the shooting. ‘The first shot must
    not have been too solid, because he just slumped’.”)
  • Pierce Allman, (WFAA radio interview, in which he statyes that he thought “the
    President was ducking from the first shot”)

But as if that was not enough, I scrounged around and persuaded Ernest Brandt and his friend John Templin to come forward and provide additional lies that JFK reacted visibly to the first shot.
25

Is it plausible Oswald could have completely missed the limo with his first shot?


What was the angular velocity of JFK's head from the Sniper's Nest point of view at "Z-124," i.e., half-a-second before Zapruder resumed filming at Z-133 after a 17-secound pause?
26
I'm only mildly surprised that there are significantly fewer Democrats who believe in conspiracy than Republicans or Independents. I would have guessed the numbers would be pretty close for all three groups.

Count me among the 31% of Independents who don't believe there was a conspiracy.
27
The JFK Assassination - Discussion & Debate / Re: The bones of the skull
« Last post by John Corbett on Yesterday at 08:41:49 PM »
LOL and Holy Cow! So the FPP's own head-wound diagrams don't count?!

And, umm, I already said that the FPP did not discuss the amount of missing frontal bone in their report. They "said" nothing specific about it, but in their diagrams they depicted the frontal bone as undamaged and they absurdly placed the triangular fragment in the parietal bone.

Have you STILL not looked at the FPP head-wound diagrams?
 

Oh my! I have danced around the issue?! You must have written this howler in juvenile-teenager-provocation mode.

You've done nothing but dance and duck and dodge to avoid admitting you severely blundered in claiming that the FPP "identified a piece missing from the posterior of the frontal bone," when their own diagrams prove they did no such thing.

People who read this silliness are going to conclude that you either have a serious reading comprehension problem or that you are incapable of being candid and credible.

You cannot be so illiterate as to not understand that I have plainly and repeatedly said that the FPP was demonstrably wrong (1) for denying that the x-rays show a substantial amount of missing frontal bone, (2) for ignoring McDonnel's and Angel's conclusions about the amount of missing frontal bone, and (3) for bogusly placing the triangular fragment in the parietal bone.

So whose version of the missing frontal bone do you endorse, McDonnel's or Angel's. McDonnel said the missing piece was from the posterior of the frontal bone which is nowhere near the hairline.

I asked you for a quote to support your assertion that the FPP doggedly denied there was missing frontal bone. Omitting a piece of the posterior of the frontal bone from their diagram of the head wound is not what I would call doggedly denying it. If you are unable to provide a quote to support your assertion, I can only conclude that you overspoke when you said the FPP doggedly denied there was missing frontal bone.
28
About three years old but I don't think it would be much different today.

29
You don't know that. That's just what you want to believe. Since I know it would be a waste of time with you, I won't bother to cite all the evidence of illicit pre-autopsy surgery, of two extra bullets being found during the autopsy (one in the sheets wrapped around JFK's head and on in the limo), and of the receipt for a "missile" found during the autopsy (which missile later disappeared and was covered up with the explanation that the federal agents used the word "missile" to refer to fragments--sure, happens all the time).

OMG!!! I didn't even think you were gullible enough to believe that ridiculous story of post-mortem surgery concocted by David Lifton. That is probably the nuttiest conspiracy theory anyone has ever come up with. No one who takes that story seriously should themselves be taken seriously. That includes you. You seem willing to swallow just about any BS story as long as it claims there was a conspiracy.
Quote

For those who would like to read some of the evidence of extra bullets and missed shots, please see my article on the subject:

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1WRwhDQ9HMydf5pICsHwgtkoNKw0YSO8T/view?usp=sharing

BTW, why haven't any of the SBT wound ballistics tests, even some of the markedly rigged ones, been able to duplicate the SBT, i.e., produce a bullet that did the same amount of damage that CE 399 allegedly did and emerged in the same virtually pristine condition as CE 399? What's up with that?

Oh, sorry, I forgot that you reject the science of wound ballistics testing when it comes to the JFK case.

Yeah, never mind that Connally said he was certain he was not hit before Z229. Never mind that his visible reactions that start in Z238--the right shoulder drop, the puffing of cheeks, and the pained expression--were involuntary reactions that would not have taken more than four frames to occur after he was hit.

Never mind JBC flipping his arm upward at Z226 which coincided with JFK starting to raise his arms in reaction to being shot. You dodge this inconvenient fact every time it is brought up because you have no explanation for it.
Quote


And are you ever going to explain how you can still believe in the SBT when we know there was no hole through the tie and no nick on the tie knot's left edge?

Whether the bullet did or did not nick the tie upon exiting JFK's throat is not an essential element of the SBT. I believe it did, but the SBT works either way.
30
So unable to provide a quote to support your assertion you use the kitchen sink approach and dump a whole lot of documents and expect me to go through them to find the quote that you claim exists. Specifically, in which of those documents does the FPP doggedly deny there was missing frontal bone?

LOL and Holy Cow! So the FPP's own head-wound diagrams don't count?!

And, umm, I already said that the FPP did not discuss the amount of missing frontal bone in their report. They "said" nothing specific about it, but in their diagrams they depicted the frontal bone as undamaged and they absurdly placed the triangular fragment in the parietal bone.

Have you STILL not looked at the FPP head-wound diagrams?

You have danced around the issue so much I don't even know which side you are taking.


Oh my! I have danced around the issue?! You must have written this howler in juvenile-teenager-provocation mode.

You've done nothing but dance and duck and dodge to avoid admitting you severely blundered in claiming that the FPP "identified a piece missing from the posterior of the frontal bone," when their own diagrams prove they did no such thing.

Do you side with the FPP who you CLAIM denied there was missing frontal bone or with McDonnel and Angel who said there was?

People who read this silliness are going to conclude that you either have a serious reading comprehension problem or that you are incapable of being candid and credible.

You cannot be so illiterate as to not understand that I have plainly and repeatedly said that the FPP was demonstrably wrong (1) for denying that the x-rays show a substantial amount of missing frontal bone, (2) for ignoring McDonnel's and Angel's conclusions about the amount of missing frontal bone, and (3) for bogusly placing the triangular fragment in the parietal bone.


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