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21
The JFK Assassination - Discussion & Debate / Re: The First Shot
« Last post by Andrew Mason on Today at 04:06:46 PM »
Nice job of cherry picking what you are willing to believe from witnesses. The reality is witnesses get all kinds of things wrong. The typical witness, if there is such a thing, will get some things right and some things wrong. That's why anything and everything witnesses tell us needs corroboration before it should be accepted. To you, corroboration means the witness tells a story that conforms with your ridiculous scenario that only you believe.
I can tell that you have not worked much with witnesses.  While it is true that witnesses can be and often are wrong on details, and some lie, honest witnesses rarely hallucinate the same hallucination. At least not in my experience. Have you thought about what caused so many people to have had the same wrong recollection of the first shot occurring while JFK was waving to the crowd on his right and then moving to his left?
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OK, you hopeless JFKA dullards, by popular non-demand I shall end my contributions to this, er, thread with what I regard as my single wackiest experience. Not necessarily profound or meaningful, but by God wacky. It involves, of course, a lizard.

I have lived in my funky little house for 29 years. It is 86 years old, and I am only the second owner. It has a detached one-car garage that is made of pine and is even funkier than the house. One afternoon about ten years ago, I was finishing up some little project at a sink near the side door. Absolutely not thinking about anything.

I turned and stepped toward the door to leave. "Look in that box!" This was not an audible voice, but it also wasn't just a thought. These were definite words that intruded into my brain. Weirder yet, I somehow knew exactly what box the voice was talking about.

Behind me, perhaps six feet away, were some old built-in shelves. Beneath the bottom shelf were five cardboard boxes full of this and that. The mystery voice was talking about a box containing a GM air compressor. In fact, it was the box the compressor had been in when I bought it.

"I don't need to look in that box," I actually said under my breath. "I know what's in that box. It's my air compressor." I had one foot out the door when:

"LOOK IN THAT BOX!!!"

"OK, OK, calm down, I'll look in the box." Feeling a bit foolish, I opened the box. There was my air compressor and ... a huge pink lizard, the biggest I've ever seen around my place, surrounded by his own feces. He appeared to be dead as a doornail - no sign of life at all.

Being a kindly sort, I poured him onto the lawn under a bush, sprinkled him with water, and left a little bowl of drinking water. When I checked an hour later, he was gone!

WHAT ON EARTH was this all about? I guarantee you, I did not subconsciously hear Mr. Lizard scratching at the box. When I opened it, this puppy was long gone. Can comatose lizards communicate telepathically with humans? Do lizards have guardian angels? Do I have a guardian angel who is inordinately fond of lizards? I have no idea, but I suspect that little incidents like this - which many people might shrug off with "Huh, that was weird, what's for lunch?" - are in fact major clues to the nature of the reality in which we live.
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That is the case in my home state of Ohio. Governor Mike DeWine. a long time RINO, has created a moratorium on executions. He is on record as opposing the death penalty. There are currently 116 prisoners on death row. Vivek Ramaswamy, the favorite to win the governorship this fall, has said he will unblock the back log of death sentences. I doubt he will get the chance. I'm betting DeWine will commute all of those death sentences on his way out the door. Governors in other states have done that in the past and I fully expect DeWine to follow suit.

Imagine if some republican governor signed a moratorium on abortions because in his subjective opinion it was wrong.  Thereby prohibiting all such abortions in the state regardless of the law or will of the citizens.  That's an incredible abuse of power.  Absent some specific evidence of innocence or unfairness, the death penalty should be carried out once the appeals process has been exhausted.  And the appeals process should not be allowed to be drawn out for decades in an attempt to undermine the death penalty. 
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I notice you didn't mention your ridiculous theory that "Oswald" fired his first alleged shot before Z133, which would have required him to shoot at a sharply downward angle. The FBI's Robert Frazier told the WC that a pre-Z166 shot would have required a downward angle of 40 degrees.

That's not my theory and never has been. Your reading comprehension is as bad as your analytical skills.
Quote

Yet, at such an angle, the limo would have presented a gigantic target, impossible to miss.

So you do think the limo was Oswald's target. That's hilarious.
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That would be hard to believe if he was trying to shoot the limo but we can safely assume he was not.

Even one of your fellow lone-gunman theorists has pointed out to you that the sixth-floor gunman would have had to miss JFK by 3-4 feet in order to miss the gigantic limousine.

Even the Warren Commission, for all their faults, correctly reasoned that it was unlikely that the gunman would have missed the entire limo with his first and closest shot.

Once again you have put yourself on the amateur fringe of the lone-gunman camp. 

CTs like to raise this point to make it seem improbable that the same guy who missed the limo with his first shot could fire the next two with deadly accuracy. The first shot was by far the hardest for reasons I have laid out in previous threads.

And I've personally answered your silly reasons, pointing out why they are nonsensical. Yet, you regurgitate this nonsense and ignore the counterarguments that have been presented to you. A newcomer would never know this unless they bothered to read the threads in which your scenario has been critiqued. 

It seems ironic that some of the same CTs who don't think it is plausible that Oswald could have completely missed the limo with his first shot are perfectly willing to believe the GK shooter completely missed the limo with his one and only shot.

What is truly ironic is that someone who knows so little about the JFK case would pretend to be any kind of an authority on the shooting.

Now, just FYI, the grassy knoll gunman could have missed JFK's head by just a fraction of an inch and easily missed the limousine, because he was firing from slightly above and to the right of the limo.

In contrast, as even one of your fellow WC apologists has told you, your sixth-floor gunman would have had to miss JFK by 3-4 feet in order to miss the limousine. As a reminder, the limo was 21.5 feet long and 6.5 feet wide.

I notice you didn't mention your ridiculous theory that "Oswald" fired his first alleged shot before Z133, which would have required him to shoot at a sharply downward angle. The FBI's Robert Frazier told the WC that a pre-Z166 shot would have required a downward angle of 40 degrees.

Yet, at such an angle, the limo would have presented a gigantic target, impossible to miss.

And, I ask you again, where did this fanciful Z132-Z133 miss go? And, even more important, how could this miss have caused a bullet or fragment to hit the curb near James Tague and to send metal or concrete fragments streaking toward him with enough force to cut his cheek?

That was the conclusion of the HSCA based on their reliance on the acoustical evidence.

Once again you repeat misleading information that you have been corrected on in previous exchanges. As I have told you, the HSCA's staff were divided about whether the grassy knoll shot missed, and the syncing with the Zapruder film that made it into the final report omitted the 140.3 impulse pattern on the dictabelt, even though it passed the echo-delay matching test, and even though 8 of its 10 impulses matched the impulses of one of the Dealey Plaza test shots. 

Then of course we have the CTs who insist the GK shooter didn't miss the limo. They believe the GK shooter fired the kill shot to the head. This belief is illogical on so many levels. A headshot from the JFK would have resulted in massive trauma to the left hemisphere of JFK's brain. The left hemisphere was intact.

You know this is nonsense because I have personally addressed this very issue with you and cited medical experts to reinforce the points.

And, umm, are you the same John Corbett who has repeatedly said you're "not qualified" to explain the medical evidence? Yet, here you are making sweeping--and erroneous--claims about the medical evidence regarding a shot from the front.

A right-frontal head shot with a high-velocity frangible bullet would not necessarily have caused "massive trauma" to the left side of the brain.

If the left brain was "intact," how did bullet fragments get lodged in it? FYI, there are fragments in the left side of JFK’s brain, and there are also fragments lying below the horizontal plane of the floor of the anterior fossa, on both the left and right sides of the skull, a fact confirmed by Dr. Wecht, Dr. Aguilar, and Dr. Chessar--and Dr. Mantik also confirmed this with optical-density measurements.

You know, you are constantly blundering over the medical evidence because you haven't done your homework. You haven't even read the HSCA FPP's report, the Clark Panel's report, the RC medical panel's report, the released HSCA medical interviews and testimony, and the ARRB medical-related interviews, much less any of the scholarly research on the JFK medical evidence done by private experts over the last 20 years.

If JFK had been driven back by such a shot, he would have gone back and to the left, toward the center of the back seat. The reality is he went straight back. When his back contacted the rear seatback, he was still on the far right side of the seat. The illusion that he went back and to the left was created by the fact he was already leaning to his left when he went straight back following the headshot.

LOL! Oh, so the left-rear head snap is just an "illusion"! You again show that you don't even know what your own side has said on key issues.

Even your side's most qualified wound ballistics expert, Dr. Larry Sturdivan, acknowledges that back-left head snap occurs in the Zapruder film. He says that the film shows JFK's head moving "rapidly backward" and that the head snap moves "the President’s torso backward into the seat of the car."

FYI, Sturdivan rejects the jet-effect explanation and the neuromuscular-reaction explanation for the head snap; he says the rapid backward motion was caused by a muscle spasm that resulted from spinal damage induced by the head shot (The JFK Myths, pp. 154-167)

Lastly, the most compelling reason to dismiss a headshot coming from the GK is there is no medical evidence of such a shot. The medical evidence is conclusive that the headshot was fired from behind JFK.

One, you know this is false because I have personally cited and linked for you research by Dr. Chesser and Dr. Mantik that presents medical evidence of a shot from the front, including clear evidence on the skull x-rays.

Two, in other threads you have cried, "I don't have to explain the medical evidence because I'm not qualified to explain it." Then what in the devil are you doing here talking about the medical evidence?! Huh?

IOW, when you're asked to explain the indisputable proof of alteration and fraud in the medical evidence, you beg off with the claim that, gee, you're just not qualified to explain the medical evidence. But, then you turn around in other threads and make adamant declarations about what the medical evidence does and does not show.

The radiating fracture lines from the entry point in the back of JFK's head establish that fact.

Oh?! Well, umm, which "entry point in the back of JFK's head" are you talking about? According to the autopsy doctors, the autopsy radiologist, the autopsy photographer, and two federal agents who attended the autopsy, as well as Dr. Sturdivan, Dr. Riley, Dr. Mantik, Dr. Aguilar, Dr. Chesser, and others, the entry point was the EOP site described in the autopsy report and reaffirmed by the autopsy doctors after a five-hour review of the autopsy materials in 1966. But, according to the HSCA FPP, the Clark Panel, and the RC medical panel, the entry site was a whopping 4 inches higher, at least 1 cm above the lambda in the parietal bone.

Which entry point are you talking about?

So does the inward beveling in the bullet hole in the back of JFK's head.

LOL! I know you have no clue what a land mine you just stepped on with this comment. I know you have no clue about the severe disagreements over the issue of beveling in the skull and in the skull fragments. 

The autopsy doctors specifically cited beveling in the skull at the EOP site as evidence of an entry wound. They even reflected the scalp and examined the wound from both sides. Dr. Boswell dropped the bombshell on the HSCA, and again with the ARRB, that part of the rear head entry wound was contained in one of the late-arriving skull fragments from Dallas. Dr. Finck even had pictures taken of the interior of the EOP entry wound, but they vanished.

Your comment again begs the question: Which entry point are you talking about? 

So does the fact that the massive brain trauma was to the right hemisphere of JFK's brain.

WHHAAAAATTT?! So you reject the brain photos after all, since they show no "massive trauma" to the right hemisphere, and since they only show "less than 1-2 ounces" of missing brain tissue from the entire brain?!

I certainly agree that the autopsy skull x-rays show massive trauma to the right brain; they show about 2/3 of the right brain to be missing. But we see no such damage in the alleged autopsy brain photos.

The brain photos only show one long laceration starting at the front of the right occipital lobe and running slightly to the right of the midline to the end of the frontal lobe. This narrow laceration does not even touch the occipital lobes--both the right and left occipital lobes are intact, undamaged.

And, again, Baden himself admitted that the brain photos show "less than 1-2 ounces" of missing brain tissue, yet the skull x-rays show a massive loss of brain tissue in the right brain, about 2/3 of the right cerebrum, a fact first identified by Dr. Fred Hodges of the RC medical panel, and confirmed years later by Dr. Mantik, Dr. Aguilar, Dr. Chesser, Dr. Humes, Dr. Lattimer, etc. 

Even WC critic Cyril Wecht agrees the medical evidence indicates conclusively that the head shot came from behind JFK.

You know this is false. I have personally pointed out to you that even in his HSCA FPP dissent, Wecht argued for a frontal shot, and that after the FPP he became even more convinced there was a frontal shot.

And, just for your education, here's what Wecht said about the kind of ammo that caused JFK's head damage in an interview with Howard Donahue:

It is my experience, including bullets that are not as powerful and fully jacketed ammunition like this, that they do not explode into dozens of pieces. They make break into two or three fragments or pieces, but they don't just disintegrate like that. And so when you say it behaved much more like a soft or hollow-point or so on, I agree with you. I've been saying that for a long time." (Mortal Error, p. 231)

As I have pointed out to you several times, Dr. Vincent DiMaio, considered one of the best forensic pathologists in the 20th and 21st centuries, said the exact same thing: that FMJ bullets will never shatter into dozens of tiny fragments.

If the forensic evidence proves anything, it proves that the ammo that hit JFK's head was not the same kind of ammo that Oswald allegedly used. Oswald supposedly used full-metal-jacketed (FMJ) ammo, but FMJ ammo will never, ever, ever shatter into dozens of tiny fragments, much less while also magically leaving several fragments in the rear outer table of the skull and two fragments at the other end of the skull near the right orbit.

So does every qualified medicat [medical] examiner who reviewed the photos and x-rays from the autopsy.

You know this is both false and misleading. And, apparently you don't know that not all medical examiners are forensic pathologists.

Dr. Wecht, Dr. Nichols, and Dr. Fillinger were forensic pathologists, and all three rejected the lone-gunman shooting scenario and argued that the ammo that hit JFK's head could not have been FMJ ammo. A host of other highly qualified medical experts have likewise rejected your version of the shooting and have posited a frontal shot, including Dr. Robert Livingston, Dr. David Mantik, Dr. Randy Robertson, Dr. Joseph Riley, Dr. Gary Aguilar, Dr. Greg Henkelmann, Dr. Art Snyder, Dr. Doug DeSalles, Dr. John Costello, and Dr. Michael Chesser.

I notice you didn't say a word about the evidence of a frontal shot that I've presented to you in other threads. 

A shot from the GK simply isn't plausible no matter how you slice it.

It is far more plausible than your impossible scenario of an FMJ bullet not only shattering into dozens of tiny fragments but also magically leaving several fragments in the rear outer table of the skull and leaving two more fragments at the other end of the skull near the right orbit.

Even Dr. Sturdivan has admitted, in writing, that no FMJ bullet could have deposited a fragment at its entry point on the rear outer table of the skull, much less below its entry point while allegedly entering at a 15-degree downward angle. It is a physical impossibility.   

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We have all viewed the images of the "bucket" sitting on the ground alongside the JFK Limo at Parkland Hospital. And we have been told that the bucket came out of the JFK Limo trunk. That this out-of-place bucket held the tool(s) and nuts-n-bolts that were required to install the JFK Limo Top. This "tale" is simply another JFK Assassination Urban Legend. It's been repeated over-n-over until it has been accepted as being fact. It is Not Fact. It is Fiction. That Bucket did Not come out of the trunk of the JFK Limo. It did Not hold tool(s) or nuts-n-bolts. That bucket came out of Parkland Hospital. It is a "Scrub Bucket". It was used to "Scrub Down" the backseat area of the JFK Limo. This "Scrub Down" made the backseat area of the JFK Limo an ALTERED CRIME SCENE. ALL FBI Photos of the JFK Limo backseat area are photos of an Altered Crime Scene.
If this bucket originally came out of the JFK Limo Trunk, it should have gone back into the JFK Limo Trunk after the JFK Limo Top was installed. This "Scrub Bucket" did NOT go back into the JFK Limo Trunk after that Top was completely installed.
I have found B/W film footage showing the JFK Limo Top having been completely installed, and the JFK Limo Trunk CLOSED. All work on the Top is done. This film footage also shows a suited man walking alongside the JFK Limo. He is carrying the "Scrub Bucket" by its' handle toward/into Parkland Hospital. He is walking AWAY from the JFK Limo Trunk with this "Scrub Bucket" in hand. This "Scrub Bucket" originated from Parkland Hospital, and this suited man is now returning it to whence it came.

4:32 - 4:36  -  Shows the JFK Limo, the dark suited man, the "Scrub Bucket" being carried toward/into Parkland Hospital
                                                         


               

                     
                                         

    This has Nothing to do with me. The revelation here is this 62+ yr old "CBS" Film Footage showing the Scrub Bucket was separated from the JFK Limo as it was carried into Parkland Hospital. That scrub bucket Never had any connection to the JFK Limo Trunk or the JFK Limo Top. That bucket was hand carried into this murder scene in order to alter it. And being this guy looks SS connected as he walks right past DPD Officers standing directly beside the JFK Limo, we Now have concrete evidence of the SS being connected to a Cover Up only minutes after the Kill Shot. This Gerda Dunckel preserved film footage should have been discovered a long, long time ago. 
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I have explained ad nauseum why those actions are consistent with JFK reacting to the effects of his neck wound that began around z193 and JBC beginning his reaction to hearing it, just as witnesses described it. The reactions are occurring at the same time because the overlap but they do not begin at the same time. JFK began his reaction before z225. It is not a random coincidence. Their actions are their responses to the first shot.

You seem to think that anyone who disagrees with your interpretation of the zfilm is an idiot. That's an issue for you to deal with, not me.

Yes, you have explained it many times and not once has your explanation made any sense.
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The JFK Assassination - Discussion & Debate / Re: The First Shot
« Last post by John Corbett on Today at 02:42:24 PM »
First of all, determining direction of a sound is not a simple observable fact, especially in Dealey Plaza. Second, the apparent direction depended on the location of the listener. Third, many of the witnesses said they couldn't tell but still offered a a guess. Finally, this is not an example where there were zero who observed it correctly.

Nice job of cherry picking what you are willing to believe from witnesses. The reality is witnesses get all kinds of things wrong. The typical witness, if there is such a thing, will get some things right and some things wrong. That's why anything and everything witnesses tell us needs corroboration before it should be accepted. To you, corroboration means the witness tells a story that conforms with your ridiculous scenario that only you believe.
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It appears to this observer that Bucket Man is not wearing gloves, which this observer finds highly suspicious. He shall henceforth be known as No Gloves Bogus Bucket Guy.

I wondered if Royell's habit of Randomly capitalizing Words for no apparent Reason might Be indicative of a brain lesion or some other Condition for which Dr. Payette could offer assistance and perhaps use as fodder for a law review article. Apparently, However, this is a new "thing" that Some PeoPle just do for no Apparent reason, like a verbal Tic of some sort: https://mashable.com/article/capitalizing-first-letter-words-trend.
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How about one involving a dog - isn't that what we need? :D

I've had a few ADCs involving animals, one of which was included in Kim Sheridan's very successful book Animals and the Afterlife. This is a different one, but it's my favorite. Dusty was a golden retriever we adopted at an event in the Walmart parking lot. His previous owners had given him up because he was supposedly incorrigible and destructive. Actually, they were the problem. Dusty was the best dog ever. When they saw us walking this gentle sweetie, they actually stopped and asked to have him back. I told them to go to hell in considerably more colorful language than that. Alas, after several years he developed cancer and died.

When my wife was undergoing cancer treatments, I sometimes read in a recliner in the living room and often fell asleep there. On this particular night, that's what happened - or at least "sorta kinda" happened. I was in what's called the hypnagogic state, which is the trance-like liminal state between wakefulness and sleep. It seemed as though I was dreaming, but my circumstances were exactly as they really were - in the recliner with the light on next to me. This was perhaps a month or less after Dusty's death.

I heard the familiar click of Dusty's paws on the hardwood floor behind me. "Lie down, Dusty," I said. Lie down, Dusty? Wait a minute - Dusty is dead.

I looked up and he was standing about five feet away, grinning in the goofy way only a big dog can grin. What was odd was that he looked like some sort of hologram, kind of shimmering like the projection was having difficulty holding itself together. Now fully awake - or so it seemed - I said "Dusty, it's really you!" He continued grinning as he faded away like the Cheshire cat in Alice in Wonderland.

And that was that. I took it to mean he was saying thanks and good-bye for now. If this all sounds weird and unlikely, you need to read Animals and the Afterlife. Some of the contributors are nuts. Wait a minute, you rode your dead horse around the corral??? (Actually, in some encounters with dead relatives, including ones I've heard personally from people I know well, the deceased seems as solid and real as in life, at least for a short time.)

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