JFK Assassination Forum

If I remember right, you are postulating a first shot at virtual frame 124. That would mean the reaction you think you see at Z-142 was almost one second later. That seems like a very slow startle response to me.

If you'll go back and read my earlier posts, you'll see that I'm not talking about their "startle responses."

I'm talking about their intentional head turns about a second after their "startle responses."

Which "startle responses," if the first shot did occur half-a-second before Zapruder resumed filming at Z-133 (and pretty darn far from his camera), probably wouldn't be discernable by us, anyway.


Regarding said intentional head turns:

1) JFK starts a quick look to the left at Z-142

2) Jackie starts accelerated head turning left at Z-142

3) Connally begins a quick head turn left at Z-149, followed by quickly looking back right.

4) Nellie begins a quick sweeping head turn to the right at Z-144

5) Kellerman begins leaning over and looking behind/down to the right at Z-148



ME: What are the typical characteristics of the "startle reaction" / "startle response" of a person who hears a loud noise behind them?

GROK: The typical "startle reaction" to a sudden loud noise from behind is an automatic, involuntary acoustic startle reflex (also called the startle response or startle pattern). This is a rapid defensive reaction mediated by the brainstem that happens in a fraction of a second — often before you’re consciously aware of the sound.

Sequence of the Typical Reaction

Immediate muscle response (within ~30–100 milliseconds):

Eye blink (the fastest and most reliable component).

Neck and shoulder contraction: The head and shoulders jerk downward or forward slightly (a "head dip" or shrug).  [Note: Not a turning of the head]

Upper body flexion: Arms bend inward toward the chest, fists may clench, and the torso hunches or crouches protectively.

Leg response: Knees may bend slightly; in stronger reactions, the whole body jumps or flinches upward.

Orienting/turning component (slightly slower, ~200–500 ms):

Because the noise is behind you, you’ll often rapidly turn your head and upper body toward the source to identify the threat. This is part of the "orienting response" that follows the initial startle.

Autonomic (body-wide) effects:

Heart rate spikes.

Adrenaline surge (fight-or-flight activation).

Increased alertness and faster breathing.

Sweating or a brief "cold" feeling.

Why This Pattern?

Evolutionarily, a loud noise from behind signals a potential predator or danger you can’t see. The reflex protects vital areas (neck, spine, eyes) and prepares you to either flee or turn and confront the threat. It’s very consistent across people, though the intensity varies based on:

How unexpected or loud the noise is.

Individual factors (anxiety level, fatigue, caffeine, PTSD, etc. — people with anxiety or trauma often show exaggerated responses).

Context (you’re less startled in a noisy environment you expect).

Everyday ExamplesJumping and whipping your head around when someone drops a tray behind you in a café.

The classic "someone sneaks up and yells 'Boo!'" reaction — shoulders up, arms in, then spin around.

Drivers slamming on the brakes or swerving slightly after a loud horn from behind.

The startle reflex is one of the most reliable and well-studied responses in psychology and neuroscience. It’s used in labs to measure fear, anxiety, and neurological function because it’s so automatic. In most healthy people, it lasts only a second or two before conscious control and appraisal take over ("Oh, it was just a door slamming").





Costella-frame-by-frame:

https://assassinationresearch.com/zfilm/

So you must have absolutely no confidence in the accuracy of any memory that you have.

I know I remember somethings but I also know of a number of instances where I misremembered what happened. Sometimes I have a resource that will tell me if what I remembered is correct or not. Sometimes I am and sometimes I am not.

On this issue, while the 1.....2...3 shot spacing is the majority opinion, it is hardly unanimous. Others remember it as 1....2....3 and others remember it as 1...2......3. I believe the first two were about 1 second closer together than the last 2, but I base that on only one witness,  Zapruder's camera. That has never lied to me.

Believe it or not, when I first began discussing the JFKA in online forums, I had formulated a theory very similar to yours. I can't remember the specifics but I led myself to believe JFK was hit by the first and third shots and JBC by the second. I can't say specifically but I think I placed the first shot somewhere in the Z180s and JBC somewhere in the Z230s. I came up with all kinds of excuses for why that didn't jibe with the Z-film. I finally gave up because I was uncomfortable with all the mental gymnastics I had to go through to convince myself that the two men were hit by separate shots. Finally I had to admit to myself that I was wrong and started figuring out what really happened once I put my faith in the visual evidence of the Z-film. That has never led me astray. I have fine tuned my conclusions over the years but it has been basically unchanged for decades. The first shot missed. JFK and JBC were hit by the second shot. The third shot was the kill shot.

It's all earwitness evidence and it is all subject to error by large numbers of people. Anyone who bases their beliefs primary on what earwitnesses said has a very shaky foundation.

So you must have absolutely no confidence in the accuracy of any memory that you have.

TC--

Thanks for your comments--

"There were almost 4 seconds between the first and second shots and almost 5 seconds between the second and third shots." --TC

Given that we have no reliable audio of the JFKA, I suppose there is no way to prove beyond reasonable doubt what exactly was the cadence of shots on 11.22.

I will say we have two witnesses in different locations, Gov. JBC and Amos Euins, who both said they believed shots  sounded like they were issued by automatic weapons on 11.22. Then we have Secret Service Kellerman, in the limo,  describing the shots as coming in a "flurry."

Sheriff Weitzman reported the second two shots were nearly simultaneous.

Pat Speer did some compilations, and most witnesses reported a "bang....bang-bang" sequence.

I find it hard to reconcile these observations, often from men with experience with firearms, with the five-second gap between the second and third shots, that you posit.

In addition, like JBC's dorsal-side right wrist wound, the James Tague curb-shot seems to defy explanation. I don't have an answer to where that shot came from, and I have never read an answer that holds water.

Like the heavy smell of gunsmoke in DP-GK area in the immediate aftermath of the JFK--when the wind was blowing towards the TSBD from the Third Street Overpass. How?

The odd man flashing Secret Service credentials on the GK area, to DPD Joe Smith and Sheriff Weitzman. Huh?

I won't pretend to know exactly what happened on 11.22, how JBC received his dorsal-side wrist wound, or Tague his face wound. Why so many witnesses reported the second and third shots as "bang-bang." 

Why JBC was still holding his hat at Z-272 in his right hand, if he had already been shot through the wrist.

So, I remain skeptical of the LN explanation of the JFKA.

I am equally skeptical of the vast majority of CT explanations, especially those crafted to promote various ideologies and agendas, or that reflect putrid ethnic biases.

Interesting. Of course I knew of the SS recreation but this is the first time I saw that reporters were allowed in. I believe the CBS reporter said his name was Lou Wood. He sounded a lot like Cronkite. I noted he said the three shots were fired in under 10 seconds. Apparently the Six Seconds in Dallas myth had not yet been formulated.

10.2 seconds, actually.