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21
A few follow-up points:

I found a video of Doug Weldon's presentation on the windshield damage at the 1999 JFK Lancer conference. In the presentation, Weldon spends some time talking about the damage visible in Altgens 6 while showing an enlargement of Altgens 6 on the jumbo screen (which appears to be about 6 feet tall and 10 feet wide). The segment starts at 1:40:34 in the video.

Doug Weldon JFK Assassination Conference Presentation: Kennedy Limousine

Since there is no windshield damage in Altgens 6, that makes the whole presentation irrelevant.
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I'm citing Weldon's presentation in part to show that we've known for many years that windshield damage is visible in Altgens 6.

Why do you keep saying "we"?
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Part of the evidence of a hole through the windshield is the fact that Kennedy had two small holes in his right cheek. Tom Robinson, one of the morticians, noticed the holes and plugged them to keep them from leaking embalming fluid. He didn't notice the holes until he started the embalming process and saw embalming fluid leak through them and saw a slight discoloration them begin to appear in them.

A number of scholars have suggested that small particles from the windshield shot hit Kennedy's right cheek, and that a larger glass fragment hit him in the throat. The glass fragment would have been hard to see on the chest x-rays and could have easily been missed. Also, the glass fragment's range would have been limited, which could explain the damage to the right lung slightly below and to the right of the throat wound.

Anyone who would come up with something that silly is no scholar. I do like how you throw that word around loosely to try to give these clowns credibility. It isn't working.
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BTW, Robinson told the HSCA that he saw a small wound in the area of JFK's right temple. No wonder his HSCA testimony was sealed. (It was released by the ARRB in the 1990s.)

Not surprising given it's proximity to the exit point.
22

2] The man in the image I posted is also wearing a plaid shirt and, most definitely, not the white shirt Molina was wearing.
3] During his WC testimony Molina is specifically asked if a girl had come up while he was on the steps and mentioned the President being shot, to which he said "no". This alone proves it wasn't Molina. When asked about Gloria he mentioned nothing about being on the steps. He specifically states he was in the lobby when he interacted with her. Molina's WC testimony does preclude him from being the man on the steps. As does the lack of white shirt:

Mr. BALL. Had somebody come up and said the President was shot before you saw Truly go in?
Mr. MOLINA. No.
Mr. BALL. Do you know a girl named Gloria Calvary?
Mr. MOLINA. Yes.
Mr. BALL. Did Gloria come up?
Mr. MOLINA. Yes, she came. I was in the lobby standing there and she came in with this other girl.


The two men fast-walking up the Elm Street extension are Lovelady & Shelley...

The man in front of Calvery can be further examined by obtaining the 6th Floor Museum 1st generation copy of Darnell and applying high tech digital enhancement...

The Couch/Darnell clip is a 4 second long series of frames...Your image here denies us the best frame of Molina and his bald pate...Frankly I don't trust your image and I'm not sure photo shop games haven't been played with it in order to merge Lovelady in with it...The JFK research community is dysfunctional and corrupted...It operates in a way that prevents evidence being examined instead of honestly pursued...I need that 1st generation copy in order to look at the highest resolution examples of this man...I assure you he is Molina...



When did Frazier say this?
During his WC testimony he seems to be just guessing what Shelley and Lovelady did. He doesn't seem to really know.


Frazier said it in one of his interviews or statements...He said that Lovelady & Shelley spoke to Calvery at the base of the steps...Calvery had told the pair what she had seen at the Knoll and that inspired them to head up to the Knoll to see for themselves...They then went back inside the Depository through the west side doors to the 1st Floor...Adams & Styles had gotten out the rear before they came back in...I think you are well aware the timing for that little talk at the base of the stairs is shown perfectly in Couch/Darnell where Calvery is climbing the stairs at just the right distance from that talk as are Lovelady & Shelley going up the extension at just the right distance from that talk... 


Reed or Hicks. It doesn't really matter but if you feel from your interview of Reed that it might have been her that's good enough for me.
I'm still pretty sure you said something else but it's not a hill I'm willing to die on.
For what it's worth, you had left this forum not long after I was getting involved. I thought the Prayer Man cult was pure nonsense and it seemed to me the only real candidate was Sarah Stanton. When I expressed this I was surprised by how vehement the opposition was to this notion. There were a lot of insults but the main one was the 'new Brian Doyle'. I get the impression I was supposed to be really offended by this.


I don't know what you are talking about...My emphasis on this board has always been that the Davidson Enhancement clearly showed Stanton's face on Prayer Man...It is out of my control if people want to play games with that obvious conclusion...Reed told me when she got to the passenger elevator the electricity for it was off and it didn't work...Very important evidence that none of the so-called serious researchers were even interested in...As long as it comes from me, no matter how important, the clique demands it be ignored...Not very credible...


LATER EDIT: How do you reconcile the WC testimonies of Shelley and Lovelady with the identification of the men on the extension. This is what really disproves the identification so I would like to hear how you navigate it.


Barry Ernest explains it best...The authorities got Lovelady & Shelley to lie and change their departure from the front steps to 3 minutes after the shots in order to scuttle Victoria Adams' witnessing...Adams & Styles clattered by on the 2nd Floor staircase landing on their way down and out...Oswald heard that noise and got up from his seat in the 2nd Floor Lunch Room and went to the Vestibule door window for that Lunch Room...Oswald was standing there stationary watching the stairs when he saw a police officer emerge on to the staircase landing...He was startled by this and flinched back from the Vestibule window and retreated in to the Lunch Room...This triggered Baker's cop instincts and he pursued Oswald in to the Lunch Room...Both Baker & Truly saw Oswald's lunch on the table and knew he was in there the whole time - which is why Baker broke off without saying anything and started up the stairs...Baker hems and haws in his Commission testimony on how exactly he saw Oswald because he knows he can't tell this true version because it exonerates Oswald...Proof this is correct is the fact the Warren Commission never asked either Truly or Baker "Do you think Oswald was in the Lunch Room the whole time during the assassination?"...This cracking of the conspiracy is desperately kept off The Education Forum...I'm not sure that forum isn't a den of spooks trying to look like researchers...
23
A few follow-up points:

I found a video of Doug Weldon's presentation on the windshield damage at the 1999 JFK Lancer conference. In the presentation, Weldon spends some time talking about the damage visible in Altgens 6 while showing an enlargement of Altgens 6 on the jumbo screen (which appears to be about 6 feet tall and 10 feet wide). The segment starts at 1:40:34 in the video.

Doug Weldon JFK Assassination Conference Presentation: Kennedy Limousine

I'm citing Weldon's presentation in part to show that we've known for many years that windshield damage is visible in Altgens 6.

Part of the evidence of a hole through the windshield is the fact that Kennedy had two small holes in his right cheek. Tom Robinson, one of the morticians, noticed the holes and plugged them to keep them from leaking embalming fluid. He didn't notice the holes until he started the embalming process and saw embalming fluid leak through them and saw a slight discoloration them begin to appear in them.

A number of scholars have suggested that small particles from the windshield shot hit Kennedy's right cheek, and that a larger glass fragment hit him in the throat. The glass fragment would have been hard to see on the chest x-rays and could have easily been missed. Also, the glass fragment's range would have been limited, which could explain the damage to the right lung slightly below and to the right of the throat wound.

BTW, Robinson told the HSCA that he saw a small wound in the area of JFK's right temple. No wonder his HSCA testimony was sealed. (It was released by the ARRB in the 1990s.)




24
Firing down at 60 or 70 degrees does NOT make an upward angle back wound. Any other ideas?


Let's say, for argument's sake, there was an "upward angle back wound", where would that shot have come from and when, in the Z-film, did it happen?
25
David Ferrie's Autopsy

Here are Patricia Lambert's notes of an interview she conducted with Dr. Ronald Welsh, who conducted David Ferrie's autopsy.

I have also included links to over 30 articles which debunk every David Ferrie conspiracy story.

https://www.onthetrailofdelusion.com/post/david-ferrie-s-death
26
Michael,

What do you make of the observation made during the autopsy that the bullet that entered the President's back (several inches below the shoulder and to the right of the spine) had hit JFK at an angle of 45 to 60 degrees

This comes from the Sibert-O'Neill report on the autopsy. It is not in the autopsy report. According to Sibert and O'Neill, at one point Humes voiced the view that the back-wound bullet hit at a 45-60-degree downward angle. Obviously, either Humes was unbelievably incompetent or he could not have been looking at the back wound seen in the autopsy photo of the wound. The wound in the autopsy photo has an abrasion ring around it that is wider on the bottom half than on the top half, proving an upward trajectory at the time of impact, as the HSCA FPP correctly noted:

A red-brown to black area of skin surrounds the wound, forming what is called an abrasion collar. It was caused by the bullet's scraping the margins of the skin on penetration and is characteristic of a gunshot wound of entrance. The abrasion collar is larger at the lower margin of the wound, evidence that the bullet's trajectory at the instant of penetration was slightly upward in relation to the body. (7 HSCA 175)

Dr. Spitz had already made the same point, in writing, four years earlier in his report to the Rockefeller Commission:

There is no doubt that the bullet which struck the President’s back penetrated the skin in a sharply upward direction, as is evident from the width of the abrasion at the lower half of the bullet wound of entrance. The term "sharply upward direction" is used because it is evident from this injury that the missile traveled upwards within the body. (Report of Werner Spitz, 4/24/75, p. 1, Rockefeller Commission papers, see https://websites.umich.edu/~ahaq/correspondence.pdf)

Could Humes have been so utterly incompetent as not to recognize that an abrasion ring that is wider on the bottom than on the top proves the bullet struck at an upward angle? I don't think Humes was that incompetent. Finck surely recognized what the abrasion ring indicated. Yet, not surprisingly, this crucial information never made it into the autopsy report, just as the 6.5 mm object and the high fragment trail did not make it into the autopsy report.

For all the covering up that the FPP did (read: what Baden and Weston led them to cover up), the FPP members deserve enormous credit for admitting that the bullet hit at an upward angle. My guess is that Baden would have preferred not to acknowledge this devastating fact, but Dr. Wecht was on the panel and he easily recognized what the abrasion collar meant, and, surprisingly, Dr. Spitz, who was ardently pro-WC, backed up Wecht on this crucial point. The other FPP members recognized the obvious implication of the abrasion collar as well, and so this was one of the FPP's unanimous findings. This was something Baden could not keep out of the record.

Furthermore, Baden acknowledged -- indeed, demonstrated -- that the only way to make the back wound's upward trajectory line up with the sixth-floor window was to assume that Kennedy was leaning nearly 60 degrees forward at the moment of impact. On one occasion, Baden leaned far forward for the cameras to demonstrate the point. He almost looked like he was doubled over.

and did not penetrate more than an inch or so?

Yes, this was positively established with the ARRB materials and other disclosures in the 1990s. One of the med-techs, James Jenkins, had already revealed this in the 1970s in a recorded interview, noting that he could see the end of the probe pushing up against the lining of the chest cavity. This was corroborated in the materials disclosed in the 1990s.

We now know that the pathologists even removed the chest organs so they could have a clear view of where the probe was going, and they saw that it only went a few inches and ended at the lining of the chest cavity. That's why the first two drafts of the autopsy report said nothing about the throat wound being an exit point for the back wound.

Dr. Robert Karnei was a resident surgeon at Bethesda Naval Hospital in 1963 and witnessed the autopsy. In a 1991 recorded interview, Karnei said the autopsy doctors positioned the body in multiple ways to facilitate the probing of the back wound, and that “the men” who saw the probing commented that they could see the end of the finger and then the end of the probe “from inside the empty chest”! He added that the pathologists worked “all night long with the probes” to find the bullet’s path through the body:

A: They did have the body--trying to sit it up and trying to get that probe to go. . . .
Q: Why didn't they turn the body over?
A: Well, they did. They tried every which way to go ahead, and try to move it around. . . .
Q: But this was after the Y incision?
A: Yes. The men described being able to see the end of the finger and the probe from inside the empty chest. They were working all night long with probes trying to make out where that bullet was going on the back there. (Interview transcript, p. 10)


In his 3/10/97 ARRB interview, Karnei said that by around midnight the autopsy doctors "had not found a bullet track through the body, nor had they found an exit wound for the entry in the shoulder" (p. 001476).

In James Jenkins' 8/29/1977 HSCA interview, he said that Dr. Humes found that the bullet tract had not "penetrated into the chest" and that Humes had been able to "reach the end of the wound." Jenkins specified that the back wound "was very shallow" and that "it didn't enter the peritoneal cavity [the chest cavity]. He noted that there was quite a “controversy” because the doctors “couldn’t prove the bullet came into the chest cavity” even though they probed the back wound “extensively” (pp. 5, 7, 10-11, 13).

In a 1979 filmed interview, Jenkins explained that he could see the end of the probe pushing up against the lining of the chest cavity (pleura):

Commander Humes put his finger in it, and, you know, said that ... he could probe the bottom of it with his finger. . . . I remember looking inside the chest cavity and I could see the probe . . . through the pleura. You could actually see where it was making an indentation. . . . It was pushing the skin up. . . . There was no entry into the chest cavity.

Again, this is why the first two drafts of the autopsy report said nothing about the throat wound being an exit point for the back wound. They knew the back wound had no exit point.

Did this bullet fall out and became CE 399? The ammo was presumably as ancient as the rifle, like more than 20 years old, and perhaps the bullet wasn't discharged properly?

Yes, a squib bullet is an entirely plausible, reasonable explanation. This would explain why so many witnesses said one of the shots sounded different than the others. Another possible explanation is that a fragment from a bullet that hit the pavement behind the limo caused the back wound.

No, that bullet wasn't CE 399. As SBT believers used to love to point out, what damage there is on CE 399 proves that the bullet hit an object while traveling sideways. SBT believers, even in this forum, used to love to point this out because they were going with Lattimer's and Myers' bogus enlarged size for Connally's back wound, because they didn't know that the wound track through Connally was remarkably narrow, and because they assumed the magic bullet nicked JFK's tie knot as it allegedly exited his throat.

What is your theory about the location of the assassin to the rear of JFK?

I definitely believe that a gunman was firing at JFK from the rear, quite possibly two gunmen. There is no credible doubt that a man with a rifle was seen in the sixth-floor window.
28
"Debunked"? The Patterson footage is Now consistently being validated via "AI". The interest in "Big Foot" is growing. Your "debunked" claim explains how you got ripped off/$$ on those autographed JFK Assassination Photos. Seriously, you have absolutely no idea what is going on all around you.

Dear Stormtrooper Storing,

Is it carrying both of its gloves, or just one?

-- Tom
29
I think the bulk of the Bigfoot believers do not believe the Patterson/Gimlin film has been debunked.

I do not think that Bigfoot exists. It would be wildly strange that it does exist, but we can't find a skeleton, EDNA, nothing.

The figure in the Patterson/Gimlin film certainly walks like a human and has the same proportions of limb length of a human. Ratio of leg length to arm length. Ratio of upper arm to lower arm length. Ratio of upper leg to lower leg length. Ratio of limb lengths to torso lengths. It only looks a lot stouter than a human which could be the result of a bulky costume.

A film of any other known ape, Gorilla, Chimpanzee, Orangutang, Gibbon, could be immediately dismissed as a human in a suit. Only Bigfoot seems to be the special exception. It is a man in a suit.

   Just checkout "You Tube". There are several presentations there involving "AI" and the Patterson/Gimlin footage.
30
In this video, I proove that:
 - Harold Norman
 - James Jarman
 - Bonnie Ray Williams
 - Charles Givens

ARE LYING


And based on this picture, where Umbrella Man sit next to "black" people, means that there were black people involved in the Kennedy assassination and why this hole group of Plywood Laying Group is a group whose main task was to assassinate Kennedy.



Jack Dougherty who was in this Plywood Laying Group was the shooter of JFK, and the rest of the members are only supporting and helping Jack Dougherty and why these black people were at the top floors when Kennedy was shot.



And this is the reason why Norman, Jarman, Williams and Givens are lying in statements to Dallas Police, because they are members of this Kennedy assassination team.

And think about, how cheap it would be hiring these "negroes" into this assassination of JFK, because these Dallas millionaires has so much money that they could hire 1000 gangs of people for helping this assassination of JFK And think about how good alibi that would be at that time, when you have negroes doing FALSE testimony and statement concerning the JFK assassination

A cadet in '40 and '41? Where was Jack Dougherty a cadet during those years? He testified he had left high school in 1937.
However, Jack's testimony or the recording or transcription of it by a WC court reporter conflicts with 1940 US Census data.
The census entry described Jack as "H-1" for both current school level, 16 year old high school freshman and H-1 also as the
extent of his schooling, Older brother, Redfern, age 19, was attending college and performing a part time job with prior year
earnings of 10% that of his father's. Jack's occupation displayed no employment or earnings.
Jack was two years older than most high school freshman. I was 13 during most of my freshman year and my current wife as
well as two prior partners were all two months older than I. All of the three graduated high school no later than the same month and year that I did.
In fact one of those prior two partners skipped a grade in high school and graduated a year earlier than I and my other two examples.
She and her twin sister entered college at age 16. I highly doubt Jack was a cadet, (a high school extra curricular program) in 1940 or '41.

View census page, Jack's line is on very bottom, with red mark to left of his name.:
https://photobucket.com/share/693e09a0-ff9a-444a-a220-9064f9ae2b49/media/c26898bb-b55c-4413-86ff-ebab98f4e450


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