Dear danny BOY o'meara,

Mark Tyler has Gloria Calvery running up Elm Street towards the TSBD, conferring for about ten seconds with a couple of people in the intersection of Elm and Elm Street Extension, and finally arriving at the steps about 25 seconds after the final shot.

He has Marrion Baker arriving at the steps 30 seconds after the final shot.

Just looking at the Darnell clip, we can see Calvery as she's standing on a lower step with her back to the camera, apparently talking with the man in front of her, but we don't know how long she's been there.

We can, however, see Officer Baker as he's running towards the steps and he's almost there.

Calvery and her three South West Publishing Company colleagues (one of whom can be seen running past Lovelady and Shelley / "Lovelady and Shelley" towards the TSBD entrance) weren't very far down Elm Street from the "island" or the steps while they were watching the motorcade.

I suspect that Calvery and her dressed-in-white colleague next to her on the steps could have gotten to the front steps in about 15 seconds if they had run non-stop, giving Calvery plenty of time to relay the bad news to Lovelady and Shelley, and for Lovelady and Shelley, in turn, to get as far down Elm Street Extension as we see them in Couch/Darnell.

Regarding Lovelady's and Shelley's allegedly waiting "a minute or two (or was it three?) for Calvery to get to them, do you really think that's realistic?

https://www.marktyler.org/mc63.html

-- Tom

Li'l tommy

Lovelady never moved from the steps after the shots.
Shelley went immediately across the street to the island, bumped into Gloria racing the other way and followed her back to the steps.
Lovelady is the man Gloria is talking to on the steps around 15 - 20 seconds after the shooting.
Both Shelley and Lovelady re-entered the front door and made their way immediately towards the back of the first floor where they were seen by Vicki Adams, around 50 -  60 seconds after the shots.
Adams and Styles ran out the back door and seconds later Truly and Baker arrived at the area near the elevators where Baker observed the two white men hanging around.

After giving their same-day affidavits, both Shelley and Lovelady continually lied about their movements after the shooting in every subsequent testimony/interview they gave.
They did everything in their power to undermine Adams' witnessing of them towards the back of the 1st floor around 50 - 60 seconds after the shooting and they were helped to do this by the WC Sham.

In your new scenario you appear to have forgotten that Lovelady and Shelley went across to the little old island immediately after Gloria spoke to them on the steps. They stayed on the island for "a minute or two" according to Shelley, who also testified that he was stood on the island when he saw Baker and Truly heading into the building.
How does that affect your newly made up  scenario?

Provide a link to Larsen's photo analysis.
Provide proof that this analysis even exists.

   These Ed Forum alums provide absolutely No Proof of anything they claim. They got away with this crappola over there. NOT HERE!

The majority of internet posters represent an impairing of conspiracy evidence rather than promotion...

Larsen's photo analysis was very good...It showed the distinct plaid pattern close up and matched it perfectly with its black and white stripes...So good, in fact, that when Larsen realized he had proven the timing for when Frazier was looking at Stanton he went back and deleted it with no protest from the members of The Education Forum...This, apparently, was OK with James Gordon's pinned "Site Behaviour" rules...Calling Larsen out on it was not...Even though that was Gordon's job...The new rules make it simpler: "Thread is now closed to replies"...

Provide a link to Larsen's photo analysis.
Provide proof that this analysis even exists.

The 3 stacked boxes suggest the shooter was going to shoot with rifle sticking partly out the window. Unless Malcolm Couch , Bob Jackson and Amos Euins were encouraged to fabricate a story, their WC testimony confirms this was the plan, since they all saw a rifle stuck OUT the window.

There is no logical reason why Oswald or some other TSBD shooter would try a pot shot while standing at Z124.

The rifle was found with the scope so out of alignment that a shim had  to be inserted under the mount itself to change the mount angle. The metal bracket that held  the scope was not bent, so it appears that the rifle was assembled without the shim on purpose.

It could be Oswald never had intended to use the scope , and assembled the rifle without the requisite shim to introduce speculation about the rifle being planted after the fact.

This might have been a fantasy in Oswald’s OCD mind of acquiring infamy after a trial jury would be convinced he was in fact a patsy.

As to Why Clint Hill did not hear a shot before Z224, there’s the volume of crowd noise to consider besides just some motorcycle noise and some possible desensitization of the SS to sudden 100 db level motorcycle backfires they had probably already experienced multiple times during the whole motorcade trip.

Ok that is about as far to the LN side that I dare venture otherwise my credibility as a CT Skeptic would in jeopardy 

One thing we will never know is what Oswald was thinking because he never told us. Unless you want to conduct a seance, I doubt he ever will.

We don't know whether Oswald used the scope or the fixed sights although I lean toward him using the scope. From my own limited experience, I know the scope is a great aid in quickly reacquiring the target. It is much easier to put the cross hairs on the target the target then getting the front and rear sights properly aligned on the target. Both the scope and the fixed sights would aim high at the range Oswald fired at. As the WCR pointed out, this would actually aid a shooter firing at a moving target since he would need to lead the target with his aim. Oswald might have known this and taken it into account, or it could have been just blind dumb luck. What we do know is the Carcano was the murder weapon because the ballistics matching clearly establishes that. Not only was Oswald's Carcano positively matched to the recovered bullets, but no other bullets from any other rifle were ever recovered. Why do you suppose that is?

Readers who have seen our previous exchanges on this issue will see that you are now just lying through your teeth and are continuing to simply make up nonsense, not to mention that you are acting like a rude teenager who knows he's losing the argument--and losing it badly.

This from the guy who claimed I had cited Guinn's findings when I hadn't even mentioned him in this thread. Clean up your own act before you start accusing others of lying.

They'll see that you are still ducking the skull x-rays from the WC's headshot wound-ballistics test, which show minimal bullet fragmentation. They'll see that I've quoted a number of forensic and ballistics experts on the behavior of FMJ bullets, and that you obviously have no answer for the cold, hard facts about FMJ bullet behavior.

Refuting your FUBAR conclusions is not ducking. I applied critical thinking to your claims and pointed out the flaws in your logic. That is not ducking/.

They will find it odd that you comically accuse me of not providing sources when I have provided numerous sources (including page numbers therein) for my statements, and when you almost never provide any sources to back up your bogus claims.

I provided a link to the ENTIRE Science Direct article instead of following you standard practice of clipping a few short sentences out of context and then putting your own spin on what it mean.

They will notice that you still haven't explained the fact that every expert who has examined the medical evidence and commented on it has said the skull damage indicates the bullet was traveling at a high velocity.

I did address this and I pointed out that without a standard definition of what constitutes "high velocity", the observation is meaningless. It tells us nothing about the round in question. Do you know of such a definition? I didn't think so, but that doesn't stop you from using the term to lamely try to make a point.

If they read the 2022 Science Direct summary article that you linked (I just have to chuckle about this), they will see that the article says the JFK skull damage was done by the "high-speed impact" of a bullet--but, again, the alleged murder weapon was not a high-velocity rifle. They will notice that the study was purely computational and virtual and was not based on any actual JFK headshot wound-ballistics tests. They will notice that the study does not even address the known behavior of FMJ bullets when they strike skull bone. And, they will notice that not one of the four authors of that study had ever written a single article on a forensic/ballistics issue before they wrote their 2022 "ballistic analysis" of JFK's head damage.

Now tell us what Science Direct considered "high velocity". Oh wait, You can't. Never mind.

(The four authors' previous articles deal with such subjects as the viscoelasticity of human gluteal tissue, metabolic consequences of persistence of visceral obesity and diabetes, radiation dose-dependent skin toxicity, the adhesion and invasion of renal cell carcinoma cells, strategy of robotic surgeons to exert public influence through Twitter, laser-induced thermotherapy using MR thermometry, vitamin D deficiency in orthopedic patients, cartilage chip transplantation for cartilage defects, and periprosthetic joint infection and low vitamin D levels. What happened to your phony position that only the opinions of forensic experts who have examined the autopsy materials at the National Archives count?)

When you aren't lying, you are telling half-truths which is just as bad. I have cited the forensic experts who have examined the medical evidence. I have never said that they are the only ones that count. I have cited the work of the Haags on ballistics. I have rejected your practice of citing  "experts" who are commenting on fields outside of their area of expertise.

They will find it especially odd that you are still claiming that "every forensic expert" who has examined and commented on the JFK medical evidence has "concluded JFK was shot from above and behind," when I've proved to you that this is not true,

My aching Bahookie. Name one FORENSIC MEDICAL EXPERT who has seen the medical evidence who has disagreed with the original autopsy conclusion that JFK was struck by two bullets fired from behind him. That doesn't include radiation oncologists. That doesn't include ophthalmologists. It doesn't include gynecologists. These are the kinds of doctors you typically cite to try and make your FUBAR points.

 

and when this does not even address the issue of the ammo's behavior. They will also find it quite revealing that you once again allude to Guinn's debunked NAA findings. And on and on I could go.

Another of your half-truths. I have never cited Guinn to support any argument I have made. In response to another poster who suggested that the lead fragments from the JBC's wrist and JFK's head be compared to the recovered bullets, I pointed out that this had already been done. This is what I actually wrote on the matter"

"Actually, fragments from the brain were compared to the fragments found inside the limo and fragments from JBC's wrist were compared to CE399, both by the FBI in 1964 and by Dr. Vincent Guinn for the HSCA in 1977. Ken Rahn wrote an excellent article about it. Rather than put my own spin on what those tests did or didn't prove, I'll post the article and everyone can decide for themselves.

https://kenrahn.com/JFK/Scientific_topics/NAA/NAA_and_JFK_assassination.html"

I neither endorsed nor refuted Guinn's findings and as I said, left it up to the reader to make their own judgement. You resort to your practice of telling half truths have suggested that I endorsed Guinn's findings, which I most certainly did not do. But that didn't stop you from making your knee-jerk reaction to what I wrote.

You see, I know that you're never going to deal with this issue in an honest, credible manner. I realize that. You've proved in spades. You've done nothing but duck and dodge and grasp and blunder in trying to explain the fact that the ammo that hit JFK's head behaved nothing like FMJ ammo.

You are the last person on this forum who should be pontificating about honesty.

Let me refresh your memory with quotes from Dr. DiMaio's internationally acclaimed forensic book Gunshot Wounds that I've presented to you several times now and that you just keep dodging:

An x-ray of an individual shot with a full metal-jacketed rifle bullet . . . usually fails to reveal any bullet fragments at all even if the bullet has perforated bone such as the skull or spine.If any fragments are seen, they are very sparse in number. . . .[./u](Gunshot Wounds, p. 166)

In x-rays of through-and-through gunshot wounds, the presence of small fragments of metal along the wound track virtually rules out full metal-jacketed ammunition.. . . In rare instances involving full metal-jacketed centerfire rifle bullets, a few small, dust-like fragments of lead may be seen on x-ray if the bullet perforates bone. One of the most characteristic x-rays and one that will indicate the type of weapon and ammunition used is that seen from centerfire rifles firing hunting ammunition. In such a case, one will see a 'lead snowstorm'. . . . Such a picture rules out full metal-jacketed rifle ammunition or a shotgun slug. (Gunshot Wounds, p. 318, emphasis added)

Again, did you catch that? Did you see where DiMaio said (1) in the "rare" cases when FMJ bullets do fragment if they penetrate bone, they will only leave "a few" fragments, and (2) if an x-ray shows a "lead snowstorm," this "rules out" FMJ ammo?

But, of course, I'm fairly certain you'll just continue to lie, duck, dodge, grasp, and blunder about this fact.

BTW, if rifles are almost never used in gunshot cases involving headshots except in wartime, why do forensic and ballistics sources state that FMJ bullets will not shatter into dozens of tiny fragments when striking skull bone? What is their basis for saying this? Huh?

I bet I know: I bet they base that statement of fact on known forensic cases. If the present is any indication of the past, then this should not be surprising. Why? Well, in 2020 and 2021 rifles were used in murders over 900 times; rifles were used 570 times in 2022 murders; rifles were used 533 times in 2023 murders, and rifles were used 401 times in 2024 murders (https://www.gunowners.org/wp-content/uploads/FBI_UCR_Expanded_Homicide_Data_Table_8_Murder_Victims_by_Weapon_2020-2024-1.pdf).

If only 10% of those cases involved headshots with FMJ ammo, that would make over 230 cases involving headshots with FMJ ammo, and, again, FMJ ammo is one of the three most common types of ammo.

So you can drop your bogus claim that we have very little information on the behavior of FMJ bullets when they hit skulls. We also have the WC's, Lattimer's, and Fackler's headshot wound ballistics tests, none of which produced FMJ bullets that shattered into dozens of fragments, not to mention FMJ bullets that also deposited several small fragments on the outer table of the skull upon impact, created a fragment trail disconnected from any entry wound, and magically deposited two fragments at the opposite and of the skull at least 1 inch from any fragment trail.

I have pointed out to you how infrequently any type of rifle is used in homicides in the US and those involving rifle fired FMJ bullets to the skull would be a tiny fraction of rifle homicides. Even smaller would be those involving 6.5mm Carcano bullets would be the only meaningful comparison to the JFK assassination. Everything else is apples to oranges. It would not surprise me at all if JFK was the only person murder in the USA by such a bullet fired into the skull, given how unusual that particular rifle and round are. Even though the Carcano has become a collector's item, finding the same type of ammo Oswald fired is difficult. There are a number of dealers selling 6.5X52mm Carcano compatible rounds, but the FMJ round nosed bullet is quite rare. There are pointy tipped FMJ rounds available and also rounded lead bullets, but that is not what Oswald fired.