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21
JFK Assassination Discussion & Debate / Re: The First Shot
« Last post by Dan O'meara on Today at 12:30:57 AM »
What's compelling is the fact that the head turns and/or leanings over of those witnesses were rapid and they all occurred between Z-140 and Z-150.

Allowing for a one to a one-and-a-half-second gap between a person's (typically subtle, hunched, and hard-to-see) "startle reaction" and their head-turning/leaning-over-to-get-a-better-view) "conscious reaction" puts us in the "Z-124" area, not your Z-147 area.

And by the way, at "Z-124" the limo was, from Oswald's POV, completely in-the-clear between the traffic signal's mast arm and the foliage of the oak tree.

None of the movements are "rapid".
There are no 'startle reactions'.
It's all in your imagination.
The study you base all your opinion was never a study of startle reactions.

Unfortunately, you believe Roselle and Scearce studied the Z-film and came to the conclusion of an early missed shot due to their analysis of non-existent 'startle reactions'.
They didn't - they assumed there was an early first shot then looked at the Z-film to see if anything supported this assumption. They then interpreted regular head movements as startle reactions.


22
Doyle's claiming that Calvery/Reed were at the TSBD steps and talking to Shelley/Lovelady only :15 seconds after the kill shot.


Maybe 25 seconds after "the kill shot."

Who knows?

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Darnell was riding in Camera Car #3. He filmed the TSBD steps from the ground on the corner of Houston/Elm. Darnell had to of [sic] climbed out of that car prior to filming Officer Baker running across the Island.

So?

Quote
Wiegman jumped out of the (R) side of Camera Car #1 as it was turning onto Elm St. This allegedly puts Wiegman running right past these 2 women as they were running toward the TSBD. There is Zero Evidence of these ships having, "passed in the night."

Wiegman's camera was pointed down at the pavement for a couple of seconds as he was getting out of the car, and much of the footage he took while running is blurry, to say the least.

No wonder he didn't 'catch" Calvery and Reed as they were running up the sidewalk towards the TSBD steps.

Quote
Bearing in mind that Darnell also filmed the driver of Camera Car #2 standing outside of the car before he filmed Officer Baker (allegedly 20 seconds after the kill shot), and then filmed the TSBD front steps, we have a serious 62+ year-old time stamping issue -- What driver of any car gets out of that car when it has only been sitting bumper-to-bumper for at most 15 seconds? 

Answer: No one.

Did the driver of that camera car know how long the cars around him would be there?

Don't you think he might have gotten out to have a better view of what was going on?
23
If that's what they said, they were wrong, because we see Gloria Calvery, with her back to the camera, on the steps in Darnell about thirty seconds after the final shot.

If that's what they did, they didn't stay there very long.

Of the three scenarios you've given us, that one makes the most sense.

It's not about scenarios I'm giving you  ::)
I'm giving you testimonial evidence that you seem to be completely unaware of, even though it's JFKA 101.
Yes, both Shelley and Lovelady testified that they stayed on the steps for at least 3 minutes before Gloria arrived there. Why would BOTH MEN do that? What is the reason BOTH MEN testified to this?

Shelley testified that they stayed on the little old island for "a minute or two".
How do you explain this?
Three minutes waiting for Gloria??
A minute or two on the concrete spur??
Now that you've been made aware of it, how can you incorporate this testimonial evidence into your understanding of this issue?

And as far as the third scenario I offered...this was your own sad attempt to dig yourself out of this conundrum.
Until it was pointed out to you that never...NEVER...in any testimony or statement by anyone was it suggested that Lovelady ran across to the concrete spur where he ran into Gloria.
This was a sad little lie both you and Lance concocted rather than honestly review the evidence.

Shelley's affidavit and his WC testimony completely contradict each other.

The sequence of events described in his affidavit is as follows:
1] On front steps when he hears shots
2] Heads to the concrete spur (on his own) where he meets Gloria.
3] Returns to the TSBD
4] Re-enters the building

The sequence of events described in his WC testimony is as follows:
1] On front steps when he hears shots
2] Waits on steps for about 3 minutes before Gloria arrives at steps
3] Both he and Lovelady then head over to the concrete spur for "a minute or two".
4] He turns and sees Baker and Truly still outside the building.
5] Heads down Elm Street extension to the railroad yard, hangs around there for a while, re-enters building through west door (none of which is mentioned in his affidavit).

3 minutes on the steps waiting for Gloria to arrive!
A minute or two on the concrete spur!

It is impossible for the two figures on Elm Street to be Shelley and Lovelady if this is the case.
There is simply no time as Gloria had just arrived at the steps in Darnell.
There is no way around this.

However, if we accept the affidavits of Shelley and Lovelady, and that Lovelady was still on the steps when Gloria came up and told him about the shooting, it is clear that Darnell is showing the moment Gloria arrives at the steps. The man she is talking to on the steps is Lovelady (who is stood in exactly the same position on the steps he was as the motorcade passed by).
There is nothing contradicting this identification.
It cannot be Molina, who was wearing a white shirt and who specifically testified that he hadn't talked to a woman on the steps.



24
Dear Stormtrooper Storing,

That's not what Doyle's saying.

He's saying that from their locations on the north side of Elm Street during the motorcade, Calvery and Reed were close enough to the TSBD steps to be able to get there about five seconds before Darnell "captured" them there. In other words, if Darnell had started filming the steps about five seconds earlier, he would have "captured" Calvery's telling Shelley and Lovelady that JFK had been hit.

-- Tom

     I understand what he is saying. He's claiming that Calvery/Reed were at the TSBD steps and talking to Shelley/Lovelady only :15 seconds after the kill shot. Darnell was riding in Camera Car #3. He filmed the TSBD steps from the ground on the corner of Houston/Elm. Darnell had to of climbed out of that car prior to filming Officer Baker running across the Island. (Tick/Tock).  Wiegman jumped out of the (R) side of Camera Car #1 as it was turning onto Elm St. This allegedly puts Wiegman running right past these 2 women as they were running toward the TSBD. There is Zero Evidence of these ships having, "passed in the night". Bearing in mind that Darnell also filmed the driver of Camera Car #2 standing outside of the car BEFORE he filmed Officer Baker (allegedly :20 seconds after the kill shot), and then filmed the TSBD front steps, we have a serious 62+ yr old time stamping issue. What driver of any car gets out of that car when it has only been sitting bumper-to-bumper for max 15 seconds?  *Ans- No Driver! 
25
JFK Assassination Discussion & Debate / Re: The First Shot
« Last post by Andrew Mason on Today at 12:04:14 AM »
I hadn't realized that LBJ was wearing a fedora and sunglasses:



26
How is that possible if Both Lovelady and Shelley stated they waited on the steps for at least 3 minutes before Gloria arrived?

If that's what they said, they were wrong, because we see Gloria Calvery, with her back to the camera, on the steps in Darnell about thirty seconds after the final shot.

Quote
Are they lying about running over to the little, old island and staying there for awhile?

If that's what they did, they didn't stay there very long.

Quote
Or, are you saying that immediately after the shots, both men ran out to the little old island, met Gloria there, then made their way along the Extension?

Of the three scenarios you've given us, that one makes the most sense.
27
Dear Stormtrooper Storing,

That's not what Doyle's saying.

He's saying that from their locations on the north side of Elm Street during the motorcade, Calvery and Reed were close enough to the TSBD steps to be able to get them about five seconds before Darnell "captured" them on film there. In other words, if Darnell had started filming the steps about five seconds earlier, he would have "captured" Calvery's telling Shelley and Lovelady that JFK had been hit.

-- Tom

How is that possible if Both Lovelady and Shelley stated they waited on the steps for at least 3 minutes before Gloria arrived?
Are they lying about that?
Are they lying about running over to the little, old island and staying there for "a minute or two"?

Or are you saying that, immediately after the shots, both men ran out to the little old island, met Gloria there, then made their way along the extension?
What are you saying exactly?




28
The print of Altgens 6 in Groden's book is a good-quality print.

If there's no damage in the area identified by Weldon and many others, why were two subsequent reproductions of Altgens 6 altered to obscure that area, one by a diagonal line and the other by bleaching out the area altogether? Why alter the photo in the very area identified as showing a hole and/or damage if there's nothing there?

Well, again, I can't force you to admit seeing what you don't want to admit seeing. It's been some time, but I saw high-quality enlargements of the suspect area in Altgens 6, and I could see damage there. A long list of other researchers can see damage there, but you say you don't see it.
MTG: The print of Altgens 6 in Groden's book is a good-quality print.

Photographs reproduced in books are never particularly good, especially for the kinds of analysis that Weldon was attempting. Too many compromises need to be made to transfer between media and conform to the requirements of mass production. What we now have available on the internet is far superior to what you can find in TKOAP or Trask's POTP.
'

If there's no damage in the area identified by Weldon and many others, why were two subsequent reproductions of Altgens 6 altered to obscure that area, one by a diagonal line and the other by bleaching out the area altogether? Why alter the photo in the very area identified as showing a hole and/or damage if there's nothing there?

Or, whatever happened to two copies had nothing to do with the alleged "damage" and Weldon (via you) tried using the highly-scientific method known throughout the industry as "insinuation." 


Well, again, I can't force you to admit seeing what you don't want to admit seeing {...} A long list of other researchers can see damage there, but you say you don't see it. 

I see that the "spiral nebula" is something that is behind the rearview mirror. Anyone who says different is suffering from a bad case of wishful thinking.


It's been some time, but I saw high-quality enlargements of the suspect area in Altgens 6, and I could see damage there.

You need to have your eyes examined. If that doesn't fix the problem, then examine your own head.
29
JFK Assassination Discussion & Debate / Re: When Was JBC Hit?
« Last post by Tom Graves on Yesterday at 10:48:40 PM »
JBC and Rosemary Willis are seen reacting. Then of course, we have Zapruder reacting.

JBC began consciously reacting at Z-150 when he quickly turned his head to his left (to be caught "looking straight ahead" in the Z-161 Croft photo).

Rosemary Willis began consciously reacting in Z-140 when she began turning her head away from the limo and back towards the TSBD.

Zapruder may have been buffeted by wind and/or Sitzman may have had a bad case of the hiccups.

Rhetorical question: Why did Elsie Dorman involuntarily stop filming the two times she involuntarily stopped filming?


ME: Elsie Dorman involuntarily stopped filming twice during the JFK assassination. Which Zapruder frames correlate timewise with those two instances?

Perplexity AI: The two involuntary stops in Elsie Dorman’s filming line up, in Zapruder‑time, just before Z133 and then at about Z228, with a third [voluntary] stop later around Z411.

Correlated Zapruder frames

Dale Myers’ epipolar geometric synchronization of the amateur films places Dorman’s three camera interruptions as follows:

First stop: 0.12 seconds before Zapruder starts filming the limousine, i.e., just prior to Z133.

Second stop: at the time equivalent to Zapruder frame Z228 (shortly after the “back/neck” shot near Z223).

Third stop: at the time equivalent to Zapruder frame Z411 (roughly five seconds after the last shot).
30

The Davidson enhancement of 2016 showed Stanton's face on Prayer Man and ended the issue...The Prayer Man people solved that problem by getting rogue moderator James Gordon to ban me on BS site rules violations he refused to substantiate and then focused on the strawman of calling for the original films...After all, by calling for the original films they were seeking the truth and not just using cheap tactics to avoid addressing the Davidson enhancement...In 2024 the 6th Floor Museum released its 1st generation copy of Darnell that, because it was a film to film copy, showed the clearly-visible female dress neckline of Sarah Stanton on Prayer Man...This second discovery was corroborating, reinforcing proof that Prayer Man was Stanton...The Prayer Man people had successfully fragmented the research community in to the Deep Politics Forum, The Education Forum, and the successor to ROKC known as "Jacks"...Each of these was controlled by favoring moderators who kept the Prayer Man issue from ever gaining traction...It was when the research community was forced to give an opinion on the dress neckline that Larsen implemented his strategic lie and claimed the dress neckline was forged...Larsen was forced in to this because the only other alternative was admitting the grandiose Education Forum was a gang of hacks who had their asses handed to them by a guy they ridiculed and banned...The clique that did that has now doubled down and are posting instructions on how to put people on ignore...

A credible website addresses the forgery claim and takes a second look at it with the best researchers and best evidence...An uncredible website draws back to its core clique and posts threads on how to put people on ignore...That thread is read-only and the comments are locked...And it originates from "The Moderation Team"...Ben Cole puts hope in this new administration...

   In 2024 The Sixth Floor DID NOT Release their ENTIRE 1st Generation Copy of the Darnell Film. The Sixth Floor did Not provide any footage that Darnell filmed after he filmed the motorcade going down Elm St. This missing footage includes the train yard segment revealing the Bogus DPD Motorcycle Cop walking along the string of passenger train cars and then his going toward/down the Elm St Extension. The Sixth Floor also did Not release the short Darnell filmed segment showing the area between the short wall running down from Zapruder and the Picket Fence. That I know of, Darnell is the ONLY photog that captured that Black Dog Man/Badge Man area immediately after the assassination. The Sixth Floor has been sitting on this Darnell footage for 2 yrs now.   
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