JFK Assassination Forum

Given the fact that you believe, correctly, that Oswald fired all three shots and killed JFK, why do you think Elsie Dorman, standing 35 feet away from Oswald's ear-splitting Carcano, jiggled her camera so violently at "Z-124" that she inadvertently turned it off, and why did you think she did it again at Z-222?

Do you think Roselle and Scearce are mistaken when they say Kellerman began leaning over and looking behind/down to his right at Z-148, Connally began a quick head turn left, followed by quickly looking back right at Z-149, Jackie started an accelerated head turn to her left at Z-142,  JFK started taking a quick look to his left at Z-142, and Nellie began a quick, sweeping head turn to her right at Z-144?

Bear in mind these aren't shoulder-hunching "flinches", but head turns, and are, therefore, voluntary responses to the sounds of the gunshot, not "startle reactions" that preceded them by about half-a-second second earlier.

You've said that the Zapruder film, unlike many eyewitnesses, has never "lied" to you.

If you try hard enough, you'll find the above-mentioned all-within-a-half-second-of-each-other movements in your beloved celluloid truth-teller.

Lacking any other documented loud stimuli at the time, how else can these nearly simultaneous head movements of all five limo passengers be explained as anything other than their conscious responses to the sound(s) of Oswald's first, missing-everything, shot?

You have Kellerman reacting at Z148. JBC at Z149. Jack and Jackie at Z142. Within a half second is not what I call simultaneous. Your whole premise is based on these non-simultaneous head movements being a reaction to a gunshot, a shot Jackie doesn't even remember hearing. JFK didn't seem at all phased by it as he continued to calmly wave to the crowd until he was struck at or about Z222. Not exactly a WTF-was-that reaction by JFK. Why would you assume these head movements were triggered by a loud stimulus. Can't you think of any other reason the occupants of the limo would be looking around during a motorcade?

That is simply an incorrect statement. There is evidence (shot pattern, Altgens, Hickey Nellie, Greer, etc). You just refuse to accept it. Do you really think the FBI went to the trouble building all these models without some evidence:





JFK was visible when he passed the lamp post.  You obviously have trouble recalling what I have posted many times:

JFK is obviously reacting before z225 because he is already in a contorted position. Look at his face and hands.
You are apparently not familiar with what he said he did in reaction to the first shot. What he did from z230-270 is generally consistent with what both he and Nellie he said he did after the first shot-he turned around to his right and uttered “oh, no, no” because he knew he had just heard a rifle shot and thought assassination was underway.  Jackie turns to look at him, as she said she did, when he starts shouting in the mid z240s.  Nellie said he uttered that before the second shot, which fits. JBC said it was as he was hit, although he said it might have been before he was hit (to the HSCA).
It just requires a slight deflection to the right on the bullet hitting the back.No. That is just what the evidence says happened.  You don’t have to accept it.

It is comical the mental gymnastics you are willing to go through to try and make your scenario seem plausible. It's not working. JBC's position at Z271 alone blows your theory out of the water. It is not remotely possible he could have shot JBC in the back at that point and have the bullet come out the right side of his torso. It would take a hell of a lot more than "a slight deflection to the right" for that to happen. It would require the most magical of all magic bullets. Just what would cause such a dramatic deflection? The bullet hit no bone until it exited from JBC's chest. If it was even possible for the bullet to enter JBC's back at Z271, it would be a tangential strike and the bullet would only graze him. It's unbelievable the things you have convinced yourself of to try and salvage your cockamamie theory. Give it up. You're embarrassing yourself.

1) Funny, I'm not a big fan of people who utter or write redundancies like "hypothetical imaginings."

2) Regardless, do you think it's absolutely impossible that the first shot was fired right before Zapruder resumed filming, i.e., when the limo was already about 70 feet down Elm Street?

3) The quick, nearly simultaneous non-startle head turnings of JFK, Jackie, Connally, Nellie, and Kellerman between Z-140 and Z-149 suggests that it actually did happen, and since it probably took them about a second to start to consciously turn their heads, it means that the shot (or firecracker, or blowout, or Harley backfire if you prefer) they heard was at or very near hypothetical (HYPOTHETICAL BECAUSE ZAPRUDER WASN'T FILMING AT THE TIME) "Z-124."

4) I'm afraid you have Abraham Zapruder and the lead group of motorcycle policemen to blame for your predicament, Robin, because if they hadn't been so doggone far ahead of the limo and/or if Zapruder hadn't turned his camera on when he saw them turning onto Elm Street, he wouldn't have had to stop filming when he realized that the limo wasn't right behind them . . . and then resume filming 17 seconds later when he finally saw the limo, already 70 feet down Elm Street, coming straight towards him.

Hypothetically straight towards him, anyway.

Imagine that!

3) The quick, nearly simultaneous non-startle head turnings of JFK, Jackie, Connally, Nellie, and Kellerman between Z-140 and Z-149 suggests that it actually did happen, and since it probably took them about a second to start to consciously turn their heads, it means that the shot (or firecracker, or blowout, or Harley backfire if you prefer) they heard was at or very near hypothetical (HYPOTHETICAL BECAUSE ZAPRUDER WASN'T FILMING AT THE TIME) "Z-124."

Tom you keep talking about a hypothetical Z-124 frame.

A hypothetical imagining of what actually happened on Elm St after Zapruder stopped filming prior to starting again at Z-133.

I am not a big fan of hypothetical imaginings.

1) Funny, I'm not a big fan of people who utter or write redundancies like "hypothetical imaginings."

2) Regardless, do you think it's absolutely impossible that the first shot was fired right before Zapruder resumed filming, i.e., when the limo was already about 70 feet down Elm Street?

3) The quick, nearly simultaneous non-startle head turnings of JFK, Jackie, Connally, Nellie, and Kellerman between Z-140 and Z-149 suggests that it actually did happen, and since it probably took them about a second to start to consciously turn their heads, it means that the shot (or firecracker, or blowout, or Harley backfire if you prefer) they heard was at or very near hypothetical (HYPOTHETICAL BECAUSE ZAPRUDER WASN'T FILMING AT THE TIME) "Z-124."

4) I'm afraid you have Abraham Zapruder and the lead group of motorcycle policemen to blame for your predicament, Robin, because if they hadn't been so doggone far ahead of the limo and/or if Zapruder hadn't turned his camera on when he saw them turning onto Elm Street, he wouldn't have had to stop filming when he realized that the limo wasn't right behind them . . . and then resume filming 17 seconds later when he finally saw the limo, already 70 feet down Elm Street, coming straight towards him.

Hypothetically straight towards him, anyway.

Imagine that!

My euphoria is unchecked.