JFK Assassination Forum

James,

Was Arce wearing a suit that day, as the "Shelley" figure appears to be doing in the enlarged high-rez frame and the cropped-and-enhanced frames from Couch-Darnell that you can see by scrolling down a bit in this article at a certain website?

http://www.prayer-man.com/tsbd/billy-nolan-lovelady/

-- Tom

No, but if youi hum a few bars.....
Actually, I've always looked at Arce wearing a long dress coat. I doubt he would be wearing a suit jacket but I don't know. The Couch images from your link shows the "Shelley" figure that could be wearing such a coat or possibly a suit jacket. No way to be sure, in my opinion.

Tom, I'm not sucking up but want to take this oppertunity to thank you for the work you, Larson and one ther fellow IIRC for solving the "Dog's Breakfast Identifications" of Calvery, Stemmons sign women and more along the north side of Elm. You don't get enough credit for that work. However, for this Shelley walking down the Elm St. extension I can't buy into. I believe the heights measured are the "Elephant In The Room" for the Darnell and Shelley walking west on the extension theory. One more rant. When Gerda first published the Couch (or Darnell) animation she captioned it as "Shelley and Darnell?", or maybe (Darnell and Shelley?)-I did not save that image. That was the only time I recall Gerda wavering on an identification. We never see that image posted, to my knowledge. 

If you can come up with a explaination for the "5'6" Shelley appearing ~2-3" taller than 5'8.5" Lovelady height difference I'm posting let me know.

James

If anyone has any questions about the arguments being made by SBT defenders in this thread, please message or email me and I'll address them. Unless something changes, I'm probably not going to spend any more time responding to their strained, evasive arguments.

You'll notice that not one of them is explaining how a bullet exiting the throat wound and shirt slits could have missed the tie knot, and how such a bullet could have weaved around the body of the knot to nick its outer surface on the left area of the bottom half of the knot (and not on the edge).

Sherlock Holmes famously said, "When you eliminate the impossible, however improbable, whatever remains must be the truth." To put it another way, once all impossible scenarios are removed from consideration, the only remaining explanation, even if it seems unlikely, must be the correct one.

In this case, the remaining explanation is eminently probable on its face, and it is proven beyond any rational doubt by JFK's shirt, coat, and tie.

Less than two hours after JFK died, the Parkland Hospital doctors held a press conference. During the presser, Dr. Malcolm Perry identified the throat wound as an entrance wound three times. Dr. Perry, who had much more experience with gunshot wounds than Humes or Boswell, diagnosed the throat wound as an entry wound because it was small (3-5 mm), neat, circular, and punched-in, and because of the damage he saw behind the wound.

We have the transcript of the press conference, but not any film footage of it. Why? How could this be? Because the Secret Service confiscated all film footage of the presser, and it has not surfaced since then.

Moreover, the Secret Service lied to the WC and said they could not locate the films or the transcript of the press conference. Thanks to the ARRB, we now know that the Secret Service had the transcript in their possession by 11/26, four days after the shooting.

With no film or transcript of the press conference, the WC claimed that press reports that quoted Perry as saying the wound was a neat puncture wound were inaccurate, and that all the journalists at the presser somehow misunderstood what Perry said. The Commission even pressured Perry into endorsing this claim.

The Church Committee discovered in the 1970s that the Secret Service pressured Dr. Perry to change his story long before he testified before the WC.

It gets worse. Journalist Martin Steadman and two other journalists spoke with Dr. Perry about a week after the assassination. Steadman knew that Perry had identified the throat wound as an entrance wound at the 11/22 press conference. Steadman wrote that Dr. Perry said he thought the throat wound was an entrance wound because the hole was small, circular, and clean (not ragged). Perry added that he had treated hundreds of patients with gunshot wounds and knew the difference between an exit wound and entrance wound.

Steadman reported that Dr. Perry then told him that during the night of the assassination, he got several phone calls from the doctors at Bethesda. He said they were very upset about his statement that the neck wound was an entry wound.

Let me pause to note that this debunks the autopsy doctors' lie that they knew nothing about the throat wound until the morning after the autopsy. The Parkland press conference had been widely reported on by major news outlets. Even without Dr. Perry's disclosure, it would be hard to believe that the autopsy doctors heard nothing about the throat wound until the morning after the autopsy.

Anyway, to continue. Steadman reported that Perry said that the autopsy doctors asked him if he or another Parkland doctor had turned over the body to see the wound in Kennedy’s back. Perry said they had not. They then argued that he could not therefore be certain about the throat wound, that there was no evidence of a shot from the front, and that he should stop saying the throat wound was an entrance wound.

Moreover, Steadman said that Dr. Perry told him that when he insisted he could only say what he believed to be true, one or more of the autopsy doctors told him he would be brought before a medical board if he continued to insist on his story. Perry said they even threatened that he would lose his medical license.

Crucially, Parkland nurse Audrey Bell confirmed in her 1997 ARRB interview that Dr. Perry told her that he received several calls on the night of the assassination from Bethesda Naval Hospital pressuring him to change his story about the throat wound:

Saturday morning, when I got over there, Dr. Perry came up to
the office. I said, "You look awful. Did you get any sleep last night?"

He said, "Well, not too much, between the calls from Bethesda
that came in during the night." ["Bethesda" refers to Bethesda Naval
Hospital, where the autopsy was performed.]

I said, "What about?"

He said, "Oh, whether that was an entrance wound or an exit wound
in the throat."

He said, "They were wanting me to change my mind."
(https://history-matters.com/archive/jfk/arrb/medical_interviews/audio/ARRB_Bell.htm)

All of this makes perfect sense when we acknowledge the hard physical evidence that no bullet could have exited the throat and shirt slits without tearing through the tie, that no such bullet could have magically flown around the knot and nicked its outer surface, which facts in turn confirm that the throat wound was above the tie knot and could have only been an entry wound.

20250917 Revision of my Shelley-Lovelady-Arce post from 2018 (Prayer Woman thread). The calculated heights were not revised.

Alan Ford
Re: Prayer Woman
« Reply #955 on: July 01, 2018, 01:29:48 PM »

I'm pretty sure the man in black in Couch is not Bill Shelley but Danny Arce!

Alan,
That looks like a great call, as the determined heights of Bill Shelley and Danny Arce will show.

Using my Dealey Plaza 3D model I measured the apparent heights for Arce, Williams, and Shelley as they are escorted to a police car. In the animation I included Billy Lovelady popping-in next to Shelley for the group photo. Results for their heights are as follows:

Arce      5'11”
Williams   6' 2.5”
Detective   5' 9”
Lovelady   5' 8.5” (from other sources)
Shelley   5'6”


The next animation compares a 5’8.5” Lovelady with a 5’6” Shelley and 5’11” Danny Arce with a Couch frame. To make these renderings I used my on-site measurement for the curb height of 9”. I also added a Lovelady stand-in, who's calculated height does fit nicely with the alleged Lovelady in Couch. The height analysis shows that the two men in Couch could include Billy Lovelady, but not Bill Shelley. Danny Arce is a good fit as the taller man.

Where do you get that Shelley was 5'6”?

Magnificent to see England treating President Trump with all the dignity and respect that America deserves.  A stark contrast with how they were laughing at Biden's weakness.

Smith,

Are you a Russian troll?

You sound like a Russian troll.

Because I just love it when CTers get into an internecine cat fight, I have continued to monitor the identical thread that Michael started at the Ed Forum. Cliff Varnell, who is the godfather of the Impossible Clothing Argument, says "Forget the damn necktie, willya??? We don't need it!"

I had failed to appreciate the subtlety of Cliff's argument. I thought he was positing a CIA melting ice bullet for the frontal throat wound and a dud Carcano round falling out of the shallow back wound. Cliff wisely points out that the back wound wasn't THAT shallow and a Carcano bullet wouldn't have simply fallen out.

For the back wound - and perhaps the throat wound as well - Cliff now posits a "blood soluble" bullet as developed for the CIA at the Army Biological Laboratory at Fort Detrick (MD) in connection with something called MKNAOMI, which you can read about here: https://www.archives.gov/files/research/jfk/releases/178-10004-10087.pdf. (Any document with "shellfish toxin" and "hand-launchers loaded with dog incapacitant" in it is worth reading, no?)

Wow, huh? Bad guys with blood-soluble bullets at both the front and rear! I had previously thought Lin Soo Mknaomi was just a South Korean professional golfer on the LPGA Tour, but now I'm starting to come around to Cliff's way of thinking on this.