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11
No assumption at all. I take the evidence at face value and examine the rest of the evidence ce to see if there is other evidence that conflicts with it. I reject it only if there is a good reason ie. other evidence that conflicts with it. I don't assume that it is wrong because it is a human witness like you do.

Unless you were there, how would you know? Those who were there - like Mary Woodward, John Templin,Ernest Brandt, Tina Towner, Linda Willis, Rosemary Willis, Bob Jackson and others who made Living History contributions to the Sixth Floor Museum - would say otherwise.

The best evidence we have is the Z-film and any witness statement that conflicts with that should be dismissed. Because won't do that, you reach the ridiculous conclusion that JBC wasn't hit until Z270 and that the reason his is doubled over and dipping hard to his right is because he was trying to see JFK. I suppose you could have come up with a sillier interpretation of the Z-film, but it is hard to imagine how.
12
Once again you make the foolish mistake of assuming what a witness has said is an established fact. You'll never figure out the JFKA as long as you have that mindset.
No assumption at all. I take the evidence at face value and examine the rest of the evidence ce to see if there is other evidence that conflicts with it. I reject it only if there is a good reason ie. other evidence that conflicts with it. I don't assume that it is wrong because it is a human witness like you do.

Quote
There's no reason to think the position of the car would have been "seared into their memories for life".

Unless you were there, how would you know? Those who were there - like Mary Woodward, John Templin,Ernest Brandt, Tina Towner, Linda Willis, Rosemary Willis, Bob Jackson and others who made Living History contributions to the Sixth Floor Museum - would say otherwise.
13
Just a bit more about MTG's hero, George O'Toole. He was not an "ex-CIA agent." He was a CIA computer specialist for less than three years during the period 1966-69. He became a freelance author and wrote some fairly successful books, including a supernatural spy novel in which a deceased Russian spy reveals secrets through a psychic medium. He became a gung-ho CTer. His principal CT-oriented book, The Assassination Tapes, was reviewed thusly in Polygraph, the journal of the American Polygraph Association (Vol. 6, No. 1, March 1977):[SNIP]

I'd bet good money you haven't even read O'Toole's book, and thus you don't know that he presents an extensive discussion on studies on the reliability of VSA (aka PSE) polygraphs. Dr. David Scheim, who holds a doctorate in mathematics from MIT, has said the following about VSA/PSE polygraphs:

. . . the Psychological Stress Evaluator (PSE), a lie-detector device that measures stress by voice pattern analysis. Demonstrated reliable in several tests, it is used by hundreds of U.S. law enforcement agencies and accepted as evidence i more than a dozen states. (Contract on America, 1988, p. 160)

You can find plenty of "scientific research" that says that the traditional polygraph, the "Psychophysiological Detection of Deception" (PDD) polygraph, i.e., the test where they put wires on you, is "subjective," "unreliable," "unsound," etc. Similarly, you can find, as you have done, studies that make the same claim about the VSA/PSE polygraph. PDD and VSA/PSE polygraph defenders argue that the there are questions about the methods and objectivity of the anti-polygraph studies, and that some of the people involved with those studies harbored a strong bias against the use of any kind of lie-detection device. 

I happen to know from my many years in military intelligence that at least two U.S. intelligence agencies use the VSA/PSE polygraph for in-person and remote lie detection/truth evaluation. Some police departments also use it. Police detectives in Sanford, Florida, used it in the George Zimmerman case in 2013, and the evidence indicates it was reliable.

I encourage interested readers to read O'Toole's chapter and appendix, totaling 30 pages, on the reliability of the VSA/PSE polygraph.

Finally, a word about George O'Toole himself. As usual, since O'Toole reached the conclusion that JFK was killed by a conspiracy, Lance Payette seeks to minimize his qualifications, describing him as "a CIA computer specialist." Actually, he was a bit more than a computer specialist, although that in itself is a valid, relevant qualification. O'Toole served as the chief of the CIA's Problem Analysis Branch. He specialized in ways to use electronic information processing technology to solve issues in intelligence analysis. After leaving the CIA, he worked with NASA and on a variety of defense projects for a number of years. This was all before he wrote The Assassination Tapes, which is a serious, credible work on the JFK case (of course, Payette doesn't like it because it presents evidence he doesn't want to believe--and, again, I'd bet good money that he hasn't even read it).


14
The back shot entered low enough to graze K's first thoracic vertebra as seen from the X-ray. This would put the entrance much lower than picture indicated. First, Oswald could NOT have made that shot from six stories up. Back shot was even at an upward angle.

Bullseye. The HSCA FPP, to their credit, acknowledged that the autopsy photo of the back wound shows that the bullet entered and then tunneled at an upward angle. The FPP's chairman, Dr. Michael Baden, was nice enough to actually demonstrate on camera the only way he could get the wound's upward trajectory to fit with the single-bullet theory (SBT), namely, by assuming that JFK was leaning well over 50 degrees forward when the bullet hit. When Baden demonstrated this mythical forward lean for the cameras, he leaned forward by over 50 degrees.

And, actually, the fact that the back-wound bullet hit and then tunneled at an upward angle was established before the FPP came along: it was established in 1975 by the Rockefeller Commission's medical panel that consisted of three forensic pathologists (Dr. Werner Spitz, Dr. James Weston, and Dr. Russell Fisher). I quote from Dr. Spitz's report:

There is no doubt that the bullet which struck the President’s back penetrated the skin in a sharply upward direction, as is evident from the width of the abrasion at the lower half of the bullet wound of entrance. The term "sharply upward direction" is used because it is evident from this injury that the missile traveled upwards within the body. (Report of Werner Spitz, 4/24/75, p. 1, Rockefeller Commission papers)

This is the one of the few issues on which Dr. Spitz and Dr. Cyril Wecht agreed when the two served together on the FPP, and it was one of the few FPP findings that Dr. Wecht did not dispute. In his lectures on the medical evidence, Dr. Wecht would demonstrate why the back-wound's upward trajectory destroys the SBT.

Yet, the fraudulent SBT trajectory analyses done by John Lattimer and Dale Myers both have the bullet hitting the back at a noticeably downward angle. So do John Mytton's bogus SBT reconstructions.

Another fact that the FPP acknowledged, again to their credit, is that the WC's wound diagram places the back wound at least 1 inch higher than the autopsy photo shows it. The FPP moved the back wound downward by about 1.4 inches, placing it even with or slightly below the throat wound.

Obviously, that makes a huge difference for any trajectory analysis, which is why Lattimer's and Myers' fraudulent SBT reconstructions assume the back wound was a good 1 inch above the throat wound. This is also why the WC's SBT diagram (CE 385) erroneously puts the back wound about 1 inch above the throat wound.

You can see screencaps/photos from Lattimer's and Myers's SBT trajectory analyses in two of Pat Speer's chapters on the SBT:

https://www.patspeer.com/chapter11thesingle-bullettheory

https://www.patspeer.com/chapter12canimania

BTW, there have been many demolitions of Myers' bogus SBT simulations, but Speers' critique is probably the best one ever done. Myers' simulations also change JFK's body shape and change Connally's body size to make the SBT "work." Speers discusses the fact that Myers' simulations have contradicted themselves in their depiction of JFK's clothing and posture. Here is just a little bit of what Speers says about Myer's SBT simulation:

. . . his deception regarding the single-bullet theory is simply inexcusable. He would have to know that when people see computer simulations they believe the proportions are consistent from angle to angle—otherwise it’s just a cartoon. By changing the body shape of Kennedy to accommodate the bullet trajectory through his body, and by shrinking Connally 20% or more to accommodate the bullet trajectory in the car, Myers moved on up to the high rent neighborhood of Thomas Canning: deliberate deceptionville.

In 2023, the forensic engineering firm Knott Laboratory conducted the most data-intensive SBT trajectory analysis ever done and proved the SBT is impossible because JFK and Connally were never in a position to allow a trajectory back to the sixth-floor window.

Knott Lab's experts conducted a high-definition laser scan of Dealey Plaza to generate a point cloud of up to 2 million points per second, to accurately measure point-to-point anywhere in the scene. Using a 3D laser scanner (Leica RTC360), Knott Lab's experts did 36 laser scans of Dealey Plaza, producing a digital reconstruction of the plaza that has 851 million data points. No other SBT trajectory analysis has included such a detailed, accurate digital model of the plaza and of JFK's and Connally's positions in the limousine.

BTW, Knott Lab's SBT trajectory analysis has been endorsed by the the Henry C. Lee Institute of Forensic Science and the journal Forensic. In fact, Forensic did their own documentary on the JFK case using Knott Lab's SBT trajectory study.

Finally, it bears repeating ad nauseum that we now know that the back wound had no exit point, that there was no hole through JFK's tie, that there was no nick on either edge of the tie knot, and that numerous photos show that JFK's tie knot was neatly centered in the middle of the collar band during the Dallas motorcade.

JFK's Clothing Proves the Single-Bullet Theory Is Impossible
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1MAgWA0frOLVeWY6ok9nzdrgpRN4Wv1AL/view
 










15
Even if Oswald had hit K through the back, he was much higher than even this
bs photo. From the sixth floor the angle would have been 60 or 70 degrees downward. All reports that the back shot was 20 or 30 degrees is impossible. Back shot was even at an upward angle. Where could an upward shot have come from? Think about it.

The first image comes from the HSCA analysis and they have the SBF happening at about Z190 but modern Scholars have the SBF occurring as Kennedy emerges from behind the Stemmons sign from Zapruder's POV.











JohnM
16
Even if Oswald had hit K through the back, he was much higher than even this
bs photo. From the sixth floor the angle would have been 60 or 70 degrees downward. All reports that the back shot was 20 or 30 degrees is impossible. Back shot was even at an upward angle. Where could an upward shot have come from? Think about it.
17
SMG-

Thanks for your comments.

To be sure, mere reporters and authors, without incarceration, investigative and subpoena powers, can only say for certain so much. Russo is careful to say what he has learned, and to not go beyond that.

Sure, a reporter can gently ask questions, peruse the public domain. 

But it remains that Al Haig, Win Scott and Thomas Mann (and State Dep't staffer Thomas) all thought somebody was behind LHO. I do too. Win Scott papers are a curious lacuna in the public record.

Moreover, it is beyond dispute that forma or government investigations into LHO-Havana connections were suffocated in 1963-4 by LBJ order, and that G2'ers have told Russo (and were filmed in his documentary) that other G2'ers triggered LHO.

Did G-2'ers physically assist LHO on 11.22?

As the SBT-LNT theory does not hold water, I think it is an open question.
18
I modified the title of this thread, as William Niedernut has been defrocked.

In truth, I hope the EF-JFKA recovers, and becomes more focused on the JFKA than on current politics.

The internet is flooded with political commentary, from all sides. Another forum in the red- blue-pissing wars...not needed.

19
The Weidmann method:

1.) Make unsupported assertion.

2.) Demand that the other guy find evidence for said unsupported assertion

3.) Whine that the other guy is "playing games"

4.) When the other guy points out the games you play, whine some more.

 :D

And here we go, round and round again...

Still no explanation of what is wrong with the case I have presented. Only a waste of time...
20
You are praising a politician who has been found guilty of sexual assault by a jury in a civil proceeding who employed a CFO for 50 years, in a business found guilty on all counts of financial crimes by a jury, after the CFO plead guilty of all criminal counts against him.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Allen_Weisselberg

A politician found by a NY court in a civil trial to have committed massive fraud and is currently awaiting determination in the penalty phase of that proceeding as to whether the assets of the business will be sold by the court appointed receiver to satisfy up to $375 million in civil fraud damages.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_York_investigations_of_The_Trump_Organization

A presentation of the 91 criminal charges in four indictments and a superseding indictment, currently faced by this politician, especially considering the recent background described  above, convincingly labels this politician as leader of a personality cult, along with the evidence of sheer denial in the post quoted above.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indictments_against_Donald_Trump

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prosecution_of_Donald_Trump_in_New_York

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Federal_prosecution_of_Donald_Trump_(classified_documents_case)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Federal_prosecution_of_Donald_Trump_(election_obstruction_case)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Georgia_election_racketeering_prosecution
The State of Georgia v. Donald J. Trump, et al. is a pending criminal case against Donald Trump, the 45th president of the United States, and 18 co-defendants.
wow, a lot has happened in just two and a half years, huh?  guess enough good men did enough of nothing.  and they called ed meese a pig……. sigh+
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