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JFK Assassination Discussion & Debate / Re: The First Shot
« Last post by Royell Storing on Yesterday at 09:20:07 PM »
Why would you assume Oswald fired the first shot in a sudden panic? He had ample time to study the layout. Why couldn't he have decided ahead of time, that he could probably get off a shot after the limo turned onto Elm and maybe 2 or 3 more after the limo cleared the tree. That first shot was the most difficult one but he had a better chance of scoring a hit than if he didn't take that shot.

He could have had the same mindset of hockey or soccer players. They know that the more shots on goal you take, the greater your chances of getting one past the goalie. Even if he missed that first shot, he would still have the chance to take the later shots. I wouldn't second guess his choices given that he succeeded in what he was trying to do.

   What you are describing above is not a "plan". Certainly not a "plan" by anyone with military training such as Oswald. This stuff about a shooter firing a rifle almost straight down through a 1/2 open window and then sitting down and firing 2 more shots with a bolt action rifle is not reasonable when applied to Oswald. Max Holland started this rubbish and for whatever reason some of you have bought into it. There is No Evidence that Oswald or anyone else did this cockamamie maneuver.
   And if the shooter was serious about this "more shots on goal" hooey, he would Never have used a bolt action rifle to begin with. ALL of this is totally "out there"!
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It's hilarious that you act as if you are the smartest person on this forum when the reality is you are the dumbest.


No, I get it...

The FBI and Warren Commission did ZERO investigation of one of the most important events in the Depository, in the form of how Oswald left the Depository, because what I wrote above is just completely ridiculous and doesn't give a shockingly tight-fitting reason for it...I get it...

And, even though, in a presidential assassination, Lovelady not telling the authorities in the original 1963 investigation that he saw Oswald exit through the front door is, technically, a with-holding of evidence crime, that HSCA and FBI just decided to not confront Lovelady cause, ah, ehm, they already knew...Yeah, that's the ticket because you know how forgiving those Specter-types are...This is the same FBI that committed Ralph Yates...But, no, I get it...

Still waiting for you to give a credible answer to that...
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Unfortunately there are several people right here on this board that believe the above. Kinda amazing, hilarious and sad all at the same time.

I'm sure the people you are talking about (I'm not one of them) think the same about people who dismiss those possibilities.

Both sides have people who think, for some reason that's utterly beyond me, that, despite the fact that they have no first hand information, think that their opinion is the only correct one.
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Well, it is a mystery. One that we may never be able to prove. I've recently reviewed some of the testimonies regarding the hulls but get completely lost trying to put it all together in coherent way.
From my shadow analysis and testimony we have the following timeline.
~1:57 for Alyea films the Sniper's Nest with the re-positioned hull at the Hull B location
~1:57 Lt. Day as he left the building and is about to cross Houston street.
~2:00 Detective Sims leaves the TSBD, per his WC testimony.
~2:20 for William Allen's photo of Studebaker at the three window boxes.


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Some of the biggest nuts in the case.

 The Harvey and Lee nuts.

Body alteration nuts.

All the evidence was altered nuts

Fred

Unfortunately there are several people right here on this board that believe the above. Kinda amazing, hilarious and sad all at the same time.
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They "avoided" it because they knew it never happened. No cop ever "stopped Oswald in the Lobby" of the Depository. Oswald was stopped only one time in the TSBD by a policeman on 11/22, and that was by Marrion Baker, of course, and that occurred in the second-floor lunchroom. That fact was verified for all time by Roy Truly (and by Baker too).

More here:
https://jfk-archives.blogspot.com/2019/02/jfk-assassination-arguments-part-1308.html#DMN-11-23-63

The record does indeed show that Truly and Baker encountered Oswald in the 2nd floor lunchroom, although I seem to remember that early on in the case there was some mention of a 3rd floor encounter.

That being said, my question for you, David, is how does anybody really know that something never happened?

I'm really wondering how that works. Did they ask some (or all) officers if they stopped Oswald at the lobby and when nobody answered "yes", did they simply conclude it never happened? Never mind that absence of evidence is never evidence of absence, right? And if that's what happened, what would have been the reason for asking those officers in the first place?

I'm also wondering what Oswald was actually doing in the 2nd floor lunchroom, if he wasn't there to get a soda. If, as the WC claimed, he came down the stairs and heard Truly and Baker come up, why did he go to the lunchroom, when he could have turned right and walk down the hall and office space to the building's front door. Had he done that, there would have been nobody who would have seen him anywhere near or on the stairs. I.M.O. The lunchroom visit only makes sense if Oswald had indeed a reason for being there. What's your opinion about this, David?
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JFK Assassination Discussion & Debate / Re: The First Shot
« Last post by John Corbett on Yesterday at 07:08:46 PM »
He only had four bullets though. He could not afford to waste a shot. Besides, his marine training would have taught him to use an ambush approach and wait until the target is moving away in the direction of the sight line.  He succeeded because he didn’t try an early shot.

He wasn't wasting a shot. He was giving himself an extra chance. Had he waited, he would have had to wait until the limo cleared the tree before he used his four rounds. Apparently, Oswald calculated that an early shot before the limo went under the tree was a better chance than what a fourth shot after the limo went past the tree. Given the results, he calculated correctly. As it turned out, his fourth shot was unnecessary. He only had to fire two shots after the limo cleared the tree. Again I ask, why are you second guessing his successful decisions?
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   Postal Inspector Harry Holmes was outside of the orbit of other officials and police officers who were brought under gag orders by the conspirators

How do you know about these gag orders? Were you in on it? Who issued the orders? Inquiring minds want to know.
Quote

...Because Holmes witnessed Oswald's interrogation on Sunday morning at the Police Station from that eccentric orbit he wasn't under the same gag order as the others and he gave information he wasn't supposed to...The words Holmes said in his witnessing of Oswald's Sunday interrogation are important...

 Holmes said in very certain terms that the stopping of Oswald by the cop was in the Lobby on the 1st Floor by the front door...He added the critical detail that once that cop stopped Oswald from going out he then told Oswald to step aside and wait...

Is that what Oswald said? Do you believe Oswald?
Quote

What happened here is Holmes heard talk of both stops by cops...One in the 2nd Floor Lunch Room by Baker and one in the Lobby by the deliberately unmentioned cop...Holmes, in his Warren Commission testimony, because he experienced all this from the unique perspective of Postal Inspector, who avoided the main gag order control experienced by everyone else, spoke freely and unintentionally reported dangerous information that was supposed to be covered-up...Holmes, because of his less direct position, did not comprehend that he was conflating the two stops by cops in the Depository and gave information that revealed it...

Holmes didn't witness any of this. It's what he was told. By Oswald. Great source.
Quote

This is proven by the fact that Roy Truly's statements show a distinct difference between the Lunch Room Encounter and Holmes' version of the Lobby Encounter...Both Truly and Baker saw Oswald's lunch on the table and a Coca Cola in his hand and knew he was in there eating lunch and was therefore exonerated...That is why Truly distinctly said that when he ID-ed Oswald as an employee Baker said nothing and simply turned and ran up the stairs...Baker knew Oswald was eating lunch and was therefore not a person of interest so there was nothing more to add and he simply took off upstairs...

Baker and Truly were there. Holmes was not. Baker specifically denied Oswald was holding a Coke when he refused to sign the statement that had been written up by somebody else because it stated Oswald had a Coke in his hand during the encounter. Baker was asked to cross out the reference, initial it, and then sign the prepared statement, which he did. Why do CTs keep repeating the lie that Oswald had a Coke in his hand during the encounter?

Neither Baker nor Truly said they saw a lunch on the table in either their affidavits or WC testimony. Baker used the word "lunch" 24 times in his WC testimony and in all but the last one, it was followed by the word "room". The exception is when he said "luncheon" in reference to the event at the Trade Mart.

What do you hope to prove by telling blatant lies about the evidence?
Quote

Proof of a second stop by a cop in the Lobby is seen in Oswald being told to step aside and wait...Since Truly said "Baker said nothing, turned, and ran up the stairs" we know that Oswald being told to step aside and wait wasn't in the 2nd Floor Lunch Room...There was no reason to tell Oswald to step aside in the 2nd Floor Lunch Room...The front door was the main egress to the Depository and the cop there knew that egress was about to be a busy place so after he stopped a desperate Oswald from leaving through the front door he told him to "step aside and wait" in order to keep that egress clear...We are beyond a doubt now that this is proof of a second stop...We even have a causal reason why Harvey tried to bolt out the front door when Lee, in the white T-shirt, stumbled in to the Lobby down the South East stairs...It fits perfectly and you know it...

Who said Oswald was told by a cop to step aside? I know the answer. I just want you to say it.
Quote

The reason Holmes is mixing up parts of both stops and insisting this all happened on the 1st Floor by the front door is because in his Sunday interrogation witnessing he heard both true versions from Oswald's mouth and didn't realize what he was hearing because he hadn't visited the Depository...The conspirators managed to suppress this incriminating second stop by a cop because they knew it exposed the conspiracy and was extremely dangerous...The second stop in the Lobby is the key stone and epicenter of the cover-up, which is why the authorities, who did extensive examination of Marguerite's dental records, did no investigation what so ever of one of Oswald's most important moves in the Depository...The reason the Friday Interrogation notes are so fuzzy on Oswald leaving is directly because of this too...Instead of this genius level cracking of the conspiracy we are forced to listen to Bart Kamp try to force everything in to Prayer Man...And then The Education Forum works for the Commission and seals it from the board...This preventing of the solving of the case is brought to you by Jim DiEugenio and Andrew Iler...

You keep citing Holmes as if he witnesses these events. Everything Holmes related is hearsay. That means he didn't witness any of this. You treat it as though he did.
Quote

Admit it David...I'm the best you've ever faced...
 

It's hilarious that you act as if you are the smartest person on this forum when the reality is you are the dumbest.
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You are confused about who Molina is and who Danny Arce is in the Couch/Darnell footage.
That's fair enough.
The point is that the man on the steps cannot be Molina as he is not wearing a white shirt and Molina specifically testified that he never spoke to a woman on the steps.
The man is clearly Lovelady and the moment captured in the Darnell/Couch footage is after Gloria has raced back to the front steps and is telling everyone there, including Lovelady, about the shooting.

Danny Arce was already on the extension, right outside the TSBD building, watching the motorcade.
As for the 20 second timestamp...maybe it's 22 seconds or 25 seconds, but certainly no more than 30 seconds. That's still to be worked out with satisfactory precision
But you're notion that all films were altered to hide the limo stopping is just utter nonsense and really weakens your overall position.
Dan Rather messed up badly with his reporting of what he saw, if he even saw it. That's all. One guy making a mistake. And not the wholesale, virtually impossible alteration of all records of the event you base on the error of one man.

           When you say, "ALL films were altered...", that takes in a lot of territory. What specific films are you referring to?
           Does the "Removal" of film frames meet your definition of "Alter"? Do frames being "juggled" and "displayed out-of-order" meet your definition of "altered"? You Know that the "juggling" of Z Film Frames was already done very early on. Does the "cropping" of an image(s) meet your definition of Altered?
          The Wiegman Film was ballyhoo'd as being "filmed continuously" for its' initial 30+yrs. When the application of a false timeline is assigned to a film, does that then make that film an "altered" film? The timeline issue with the Wiegman Film goes directly to his filming the JFK Limo going under the Triple Underpass, and Wiegman claiming to have seen SA Lem John UP-THE-KNOLL, ("Pictures Of The Pain"), when Wiegman ran up there. SA Lem Johns allegedly jumped out of the LBJ SS Car, and then ran up Elm St toward the JFK Limo. There are No Images of SA Lem Johns physically being on Elm St, or running up Elm St toward the JFK Limo. No Eyewitness has ever said they saw SA Lem Johns jump out of the LBJ SS Car or saw him running up Elm St. And no agents were allegedly assigned to a ground position inside Dealey Plaza on 11/22/63. Yet, here we have Wiegman seeing SA Lem Johns Up-The-Knoll. 
           You say the time stamping is "no more than 30 seconds". The opening of the Darnell Film shows the driver of Camera Car #2 to be standing flatfooted outside of Camera Car #2. This is BEFORE we see Officer Baker running across the Island at :20 seconds after the kill shot. So, do You believe this driver was already standing outside of his car only :10 seconds after the kill shot? Draw on your personal life experience as to when you have seen a driver climb outside of their car in bumper-to-bumper traffic. The Officer Baker timeline of :20 seconds after the kill shot to cross the Island, and then :30 seconds after the kill shot to enter the TSBD is Wrong. These Early/False timelines were assigned to rig when Officer Baker saw Oswald on the other side of the vestibule door leading into the TSBD 2nd Floor Lunchroom.   
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JFK Assassination Discussion & Debate / Re: The First Shot
« Last post by Andrew Mason on Yesterday at 06:55:42 PM »
Why would you assume Oswald fired the first shot in a sudden panic? He had ample time to study the layout. Why couldn't he have decided ahead of time, that he could probably get off a shot after the limo turned onto Elm and maybe 2 or 3 more after the limo cleared the tree. That first shot was the most difficult one but he had a better chance of scoring a hit than if he didn't take that shot.

He could have had the same mindset of hockey or soccer players. They know that the more shots on goal you take, the greater your chances of getting one past the goalie. Even if he missed that first shot, he would still have the chance to take the later shots. I wouldn't second guess his choices given that he succeeded in what he was trying to do.
He only had four bullets though. He could not afford to waste a shot. Besides, his marine training would have taught him to use an ambush approach and wait until the target is moving away in the direction of the sight line.  He succeeded because he didn’t try an early shot.
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