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JFK Assassination Discussion & Debate / Re: The First Shot
« Last post by Tom Graves on Today at 02:26:18 AM »
[...]

Dear danny BOY o'meara,

All you're any good at is insulting people who disagree with your tinfoil-hat conspiracy theory.

What a joke you are.

-- Tom
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I find it comical that you would think two bullets that struck different body parts in different ways should end up sustaining similar damage. A car that slides sideways into a guard rail is going to look quite a bit different than one the smashes head on into a tree.

This is monkey-brain illogic and silliness. Good grief. CE 399 supposedly shattered the right distal radius bone, one of the strongest bones in the body, after supposedly smashing at least 4 inches of rib bone while traveling faster than the speed of sound in both cases. And you comically, childishly compare this to a car sliding sideways into a single obstacle, a guard rail no less. A retarded teenager wouldn't float such an absurd, bogus analogy.

The other half of your analogy is just as bad and silly. A tree is many, many times stronger than skull bone, and no car is constructed even remotely similarly to an FMJ bullet, nor is any car going to hit a tree while traveling faster than the speed of sound.

You simply refuse to face the fact that in every single SBT wound ballistics test ever done, even tests that were rigged as much as possible in the SBT's favor, the test bullets either were unable to do the required damage or emerged with much more deformity than CE 399.

You also simply refuse to face the fact that bullets that were merely fired into cotton wadding emerged with the same damage as CE 399 or with more damage than CE 399, and that even bullets that merely transited 12 inches of ballistics gelatin, without hitting rib bone in the process, either failed to leave the wrist bone with enough energy to penetrate the simulated thigh or failed to leave the wrist bone at all.

You keep falsely assuming that the bullet that hit Connally's back was tumbling when it struck, even though you know this is false from the modest width of the back wound and from the narrow wound path through Connally's chest. You won't admit any fact that refutes you theory.

The fact that Connally's entry wound was only 1.5 cm wide indicates the bullet hit at a slightly horizontal angle. If the bullet had been markedly yawing, the entry wound would have been much larger, which is why all of your fellow SBT believers who claim the bullet hit while markedly yawing misleadingly cite the post-surgery size of 3.0 cm for the wound. And if the bullet had been tumbling through Connally's chest, it most certainly would have created a much wider wound path than the one that Dr. Shaw described.

MTG finds it incredulous that one bullet was shattered while one remained intact yet we have evidence that is exactly what happened. I wonder how he explains that.

You have zero evidence that "this is exactly what happened." You have no test evidence. You have no forensic evidence. You have no eyewitness evidence -- indeed, Connally himself adamantly insisted that he and JFK were hit by separate non-fatal bullets and that he was not hit before Z229. You have no photographic evidence -- indeed, the Zapruder film proves to anyone not legally blind or brainwashed that JFK was hit long before Connally was hit, and that Connally was not hit until Z234. You have nothing but ridiculous speculation that was cooked up by a WC lawyer in order to avoid having to admit there was more than one gunman, and that speculation was so specious that even three of the seven members of the WC rejected it.

You have spent several days now doing nothing but waffling, ducking, dodging, and lying around the fact that we know from long-established forensic science that FMJ bullets will never, ever, ever shatter into dozens of tiny fragments after penetrating skull bone, much less "shear off" small fragments into the outer table of the skull upon penetration. The WC's own head-shot wound ballistics test confirmed these facts, as we see from the released x-rays of the skulls from the test. The Failure Analysis head-shot wound ballistics test also confirmed this fact -- indeed, in the Failure Analysis test, not a single one of the FMJ bullets even fragmented after striking skull bone. 

You've also danced and ducked around the fact that every expert who has commented on the velocity of the bullet indicated by the skull damage has said the bullet was traveling at a high velocity. The Clark Panel said this. The Rockefeller Commission medical panel said this. The HSCA FPP's report assumed that the ammo fired at JFK was high-velocity ammo (e.g., 7 HSCA 175). Two of the HSCA FPP's radiology experts said high-velocity ammo was sued. Dr. Fillinger, Dr. Wecht, Dr. Robertson, among other outside experts, have said this. You can't cite a single expert who has said the massive skull damage was not done by high-velocity ammo, but the alleged murder weapon was not a high-velocity rifle.

For any newcomers to this thread, the core problem here is that the ammo that hit JFK's head shattered into dozens of tiny fragments while also depositing small fragments on the rear outer table of the skull, depositing two fragments just behind and above the right orbit at the other end of the skull, and depositing one lone fragment on the left side of the skull, as seen in the JFK autopsy skull x-rays. The skull x-rays show a large cluster of 30-40 tiny fragments, often described as a "lead snowstorm," in the right-frontal region.

However, we know from forensic science that FMJ bullets will never, ever behave like this, that they will never fragment like this. I will once again quote world-renowned forensic pathologist Dr. Vincent DiMaio, who pointed out that if an x-ray shows numerous tiny fragments, this rules out FMJ ammo; and that on the "rare" occasions when FMJ bullets do fragment when striking skull bone, they will only leave a "few" fragments:

An x-ray of an individual shot with a full metal-jacketed rifle bullet . . . usually fails to reveal any bullet fragments at all even if the bullet has perforated bone such as the skull or spine. If any fragments are seen, they are very sparse in number. . . .(Gunshot Wounds, p. 166)

In x-rays of through-and-through gunshot wounds, the presence of small fragments of metal along the wound track virtually rules out full metal-jacketed ammunition.. . . In rare instances involving full metal-jacketed centerfire rifle bullets, a few small, dust-like fragments of lead may be seen on x-ray if the bullet perforates bone. One of the most characteristic x-rays and one that will indicate the type of weapon and ammunition used is that seen from centerfire rifles firing hunting ammunition. In such a case, one will see a 'lead snowstorm'. . . . Such a picture rules out full metal-jacketed rifle ammunition or a shotgun slug. (Gunshot Wounds, p. 318)
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Is JFK coughing up blood?
Is there blood on JFK's hands?
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While one is always entitled to engage in thought experiments, a thought experiment taking Vicki Adams' story at face value seems a stretch to me in light of the fact that Sandra Styles, her companion, always said she thought Vicki's time estimate was at least somewhat off and, more importantly, was adamant that Shelley and Lovelady were not there. Occam (or Ockham, if you prefer) tells me a more plausible thought experiment has Vicki conflating her and Styles' trip down the stairs with a slightly later encounter by her with Shelley and Lovelady when they reentered the TSBD. But, hey, that's just my and Occam's little thought experiment.

Bart Kamp summarizes what Styles repeatedly told Barry Ernest here: http://www.prayer-man.com/tsbd/sandra-styles/. Sean Murphy also followed up with her after Ernest's book came out. I also found a long discussion at Greg Parker's forum where the sentiment seemed to be that the "Shelley and Lovelady" question and answer had been fiendishly inserted into Vicki's actual WC testimony precisely to make it seem that she and Styles must have left the fourth floor window later than she thiought. Greg seemed to find this unlikely, and my thought experiment doesn't require any such shenanigans by the WC; in mine, the two cuties can have come down the stairs however quickly you like, with Vicki simply being a bit off as to when she saw Shelley and Lovelady.

(Lots of Sandra Styles' stuff for sale on eBay. Don't miss your chance: https://www.ebay.com/itm/175838680679. I may have got burnt on $1200 worth of Bogus Imposter Haygood autographs, but this Styles stuff is the real deal.)

Adams' version of events is supported by the Tom Dillard pic, the Stroud document, the fact she never encountered Truly and Baker (and vice versa) and Baker's observation of two white men hanging around the area Adams said Shelley and Lovelady were and at the same time, roughly 60 seconds after the shooting.
She is a totally credible witness of impeccable character.

Just for argument's sake though...
Let's say you do have some intelligence and can manage this rudimentary thought experiment, you must agree that the only way for Shelley and Lovelady to reach the area near the freight elevators within 60 seconds is to enter the building through the front entrance moments after the shooting.
You must agree, as part of the thought experiment of course, that taking Adams' testimony at face value would disprove your identification of Shelley and Lovelady in Darnell.
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The TSBD photo evidence only showed 2 spent bullet shell casings (used) and 1 live round (unused).
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While one is always entitled to engage in thought experiments, a thought experiment taking Vicki Adams' story at face value seems a stretch to me in light of the fact that Sandra Styles, her companion, always said she thought Vicki's time estimate was at least somewhat off and, more importantly, was adamant that Shelley and Lovelady were not there. Occam (or Ockham, if you prefer) tells me a more plausible thought experiment has Vicki conflating her and Styles' trip down the stairs with a slightly later encounter by her with Shelley and Lovelady when they reentered the TSBD. But, hey, that's just my and Occam's little thought experiment.

Bart Kamp summarizes what Styles repeatedly told Barry Ernest here: http://www.prayer-man.com/tsbd/sandra-styles/. Sean Murphy also followed up with her after Ernest's book came out. I also found a long discussion at Greg Parker's forum where the sentiment seemed to be that the "Shelley and Lovelady" question and answer had been fiendishly inserted into Vicki's actual WC testimony precisely to make it seem that she and Styles must have left the fourth floor window later than she thiought. Greg seemed to find this unlikely, and my thought experiment doesn't require any such shenanigans by the WC; in mine, the two cuties can have come down the stairs however quickly you like, with Vicki simply being a bit off as to when she saw Shelley and Lovelady.

(Lots of Sandra Styles' stuff for sale on eBay. Don't miss your chance: https://www.ebay.com/itm/175838680679. I may have got burnt on $1200 worth of Bogus Imposter Haygood autographs, but this Styles stuff is the real deal.)
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JFK Assassination Discussion & Debate / Re: The First Shot
« Last post by Dan O'meara on Today at 12:44:11 AM »
Oswald's first, missing-everything, shot was at "Z-124," half-a-second before Zapruder resumed filming at Z-133, as evidenced by the fact that:

1) Glenn Bennett (who said he saw a bullet strike JFK in the back after he heard a "firecracker-like" sound) started leaning far to his right around Z-150 to see around Dave Powers.

2) George Hickey started leaning over the side of the car and looking down at the pavement in Z-146.

3) Rosemary Willis glanced at the TSBD while she was running and looked in that direction after she stopped running.

4)  All five passengers of the limo quickly turned their heads (in different directions) between Z-140 and Z-150.

5) Mary Woodward said there were three shots, that the first shot sounded like a backfire, that JFK and Jackie turned their heads in response to it, and that the first shot missed everything. (JFK turned his head quickly to his left starting in Z-143; Jackie extended and accelerated her already left head turn to be captured in the Z-161 Robert Croft photo with a concerned look on her face.)

6) Etc. Etc. Etc.

Poor lil tommy and his debunked little theory.
Let's have a look at some of the tripe you post:

1) Glenn Bennett (who said he saw a bullet strike JFK in the back after he heard a "firecracker-like" sound) started leaning far to his right around Z-150 to see around Dave Powers.

This is total  BS: from start to finish.
That you believe you can tell he was trying to "see around Dave Powers" tells us all we need to know about how you like to add a little story to your nonsense interpretations of the Z-film.

2) George Hickey started leaning over the side of the car and looking down at the pavement in Z-146

Hickey definitively states that his response to the first shot was to look to his right and rear.
You know this.
It's another example of the brazen lies you are willing to perpetuate in order to cling on to your debunked theory.

3) Rosemary Willis glanced at the TSBD while she was running and looked in that direction after she stopped running.

ROSEMARY WILLIS??
 :D :D :D

4)  All five passengers of the limo quickly turned their heads (in different directions) between Z-140 and Z-150.e
Yet another of your desperate lies.
Aren't you aware we can all see the Z-film?

5) Mary Woodward said there were three shots, that the first shot sounded like a backfire, that JFK and Jackie turned their heads in response to it, and that the first shot missed everything. (JFK turned his head quickly to his left starting in Z-143; Jackie extended and accelerated her already left head turn to be captured in the Z-161 Robert Croft photo with a concerned look on her face.)


Woodward said that she and her friends called out to attract the attention of JFK and Jackie as they passed by.
She says that both Jackie and JFK turned and waved. We see all four occupants of the limo turning their heads towards Woodward and her friends.
JFK waves and smiles. We see him do this in the Z-film just before the limo passes behind the Stemmons sign.
Woodward is unequivocal that the first shot happened just after this.
Woodward completely disproves your silly notion of such an early shot.

Time for you to hide away for a while  Thumb1:
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Dallas Morning News reporter Mary Woodward, to whom JFK made his final wave, wrote in her 11/23 DMN article that there were three shots, the first shot sounded like a backfire, and the first shot missed everything.

She also said (mistakenly) that the limo slowed almost to a halt after the first shot, that the third shot "rapidly followed" the second one, and that the shots came from "behind us and a little to the right," i.e., the Grassy Knoll or the Triple Underpass.

The fact that she said that the limo slowed almost to a halt after the first shot tells us she had conflated what happened before and after the first shot with what happened before and after the second shot, which in turn explains why, contrary to what she wrote, "JFK's waving directly back to us" happened not just before the "backfire-like" first shot, but just before the second shot that wounded both JFK and Governor Connally.

Which we can see is the case in Z-180, in which JFK is waving to Woodard and Co. (The two women who are standing at the very left edge of the frame are, from right to left, her colleagues Maggie Brown and Ann Donaldson. To the left of Donaldson -- and out of the frame -- are blond-haired Woodward and another colleague, Aurelia Alonzo.)

Note: If you click on the frame and enlarge it, you'll be able to see that Governor Connally, having recognized the three-seconds-earlier "backfire-like" sound as a rifle shot, has turned his head far to his right in his futile attempt to catch a glimpse of JFK over his right shoulder.

https://assassinationresearch.com/zfilm/z180.jpg

Enlarge to photo in the bottom-left corner of Robin Unger's Zapruder Gallery to see in Z-153 where blond-haired Woodward and her three colleagues were standing when JFK waved to them one-and-a-half seconds later in Z-180. Note that Secret Service Agent Glen Bennett in the passenger side back seat, in leaning far to his right to see if JFK is okay, and that George Hickey opposite him is leaning over the side of the car because he thought a firecracker had exploded on the pavement.

https://www.jfkassassinationforum.com/.../Zapruder%20Gallery


Here's her article:

Four of us from Women’s News, Maggie Brown, Aurelia Alonzo, my roommate Ann Donaldson, and myself had decided to spend our lunch hour by going to see the President.

We took our lunch along—some crackers and apples—and started walking down Houston Street. We decided to cross Elm and wait there on the grassy slope just east of the Triple Underpass, since there weren’t very many people there and we could get a better view.

We had been waiting about half an hour when the first motorcycle escorts came by, followed shortly by the President’s car. The President was looking straight ahead and we were afraid we would not get to see his face. But we started clapping and cheering and both he and Mrs. Kennedy turned, and smiled and waved, directly at us, it seemed. Jackie was wearing a beautiful pink suit with beret to match. Two of us, who had seen the President last during the final weeks of the 1960 campaign, remarked almost simultaneously how relaxed and robust he looked.

As it turned out, we were almost certainly the last faces he noticed in the crowd.

After acknowledging our cheers, he faced forward again and suddenly there was a horrible, ear-shattering noise coming from behind us and a little to the right. My first reaction, and also my friends’, was that as a joke, someone had backfired their car. Apparently the driver and occupants of the President’s car had the same impression, because instead of speeding up, the car came almost to a halt.

Things are a little hazy from this point, but I don’t believe anyone was hit with the first bullet. The President and Mrs. Kennedy turned and looked around, as if they, too, didn’t believe the noise was really coming from a gun. (emphasis added)

Then after a moment’s pause there was another shot and I saw the President start slumping in the car.

This was followed rapidly by another shot. Mrs. Kennedy stood up in the car, turned half-way around, then fell on top of her husband’s body. Not until this minute did it sink in what actually was happening. We had witnessed the assassination of the President.

The cars behind stopped and several men—Secret Service men, I suppose—got out and started rushing forward, obstructing our view of the President’s car.

Then I started looking around at the stunned crowd. About 10 feet from where we were standing, a man and woman had thrown their small child to the ground and covered his body with theirs. Apparently, the bullets had whizzed directly over their heads.

Next to us were two Negro women. One collapsed in the other’s arms, weeping and uttering what everyone was thinking: “They’ve shot him.”

It still seems like a horrible nightmare.

It will be a real-life nightmare to haunt us all for a long time to come.

. . . . . .

My comment:

Woodward was right that JFK and Jackie turned their heads after the first shot. JFK’s was quick and to his left at Z-143; Jackie’s was to her left at Z-143.5 and resulted in her being captured with a concerned look on her face in a photo that was taken by Robert Croft at Z-161.

https://www.jfkassassinationforum.com/Gallery/Croft%20Gallery

JFK and Governor Connally (who said he realized right away that the first loud sound was a high-powered rifle shot) will be wounded by a single bullet in approximately 3.3 seconds, and JFK will be struck in the head by a bullet about five seconds after that. In the Croft photo, Mary Woodward and her three colleagues are about twenty feet to the left, out of the frame, and in it Governor Connally has just turned his head quickly to his left and will soon be turning it back far to his right in a futile attempt to catch a glimpse of JFK over his right shoulder at Z-180.

(It seems to me that if JFK hadn’t turned his head far to his right and raised his hand to wave to Woodward and Co. in Z-180, Connally might have “recognized” him and pulled him down to safety or at least yelled "Get Down!")

Note also in Croft how Secret Service Agent Roy Kellerman has turned far to his right.



Edited and bumped.


Does anyone here agree with Woodward that the limo nearly came to a halt after the first, "backfire-like," shot that JFK and Jackie turned their heads in response to?

If you realize that:

1) The limo came to a near-halt, not after the first shot, but after the second shot

2) She confused what happened before and after the first shot with what happened before and after the second shot,

3) She was the person to whom JFK was waving at Z-180

4) She was right when she said there were three shots and that the first shot missed everything

5) In response to the "backfire-like" sound of the first shot, JFK quickly turned his head to his left in Z-143 and Jackie continued and accelerated her left turn at Z-144 -- and was "caught" in the Z-161 Croft photo with a concerned look on her face

You're half-way home to figuring out the JFK assassination.


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Good presentation, but not quite up there with the legend Michael Brownlow yet. Need to jazz things up. Need more pazazz  :D

Yes, I need to tell a few porky pies and when challenged on them, simply claim I saw proof in the Dallas Police city records.
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JFK Assassination Discussion & Debate / Re: The First Shot
« Last post by Dan O'meara on Today at 12:29:35 AM »
Projecting?

You choose to ignore 90+% of the witnesses who heard 3 shots and are corroborated by 3 spent shells in the sniper's nest.

As I have posted on many occasions, Pat Speer collected and analysed the statements of over 200 witnesses who described hearing the shots.
Over 160 witnesses, more than three quarters, stated they heard 3 audible shots.
You have zero knowledge regarding how my opinion has been formed by the mass of evidence regarding the issue of when the first shot occurred.
In some of my recent posts I have presented parts of this mass of evidence pointing towards a first shot that passed through both men at z222/z223.
You, on the other hand, have presented a single distorted observation from a single traumatised witness.
You are deluded and know nothing about this subject.


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