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JFK Assassination Discussion & Debate / Re: Credibility of the Zapruder film. CIA employee Dino Brugioni's account.

« Last post by Royell Storing on Today at 08:37:09 PM »

Quote from: James Slater on Today at 08:26:46 PM

This place is laughable. Nell and John Connally are not credible witnesses because both their statements to the Warren commission disagreed with Specter's single bullet theory. They both stated JBC was shot two seconds after Kennedy was shot in the neck area. The forums answer: Not credible witnesses, lunatics.
Brugoni was a CIA operative who was a trained expert in image and film analysis, gave his entire working life to the CIA and had an impeccable reputation. Brugoni stated the Zapruder film we see today is not the one he saw on 24th Novemeber 1963. The forums answer: Not a credible witness, lunatic.
Meanwhile back in Dealey Plaza Howard Brennan saw Oswald through a brick wall, described his height, weight, how good looking he was and his build, passed into onto Dallas Police and that exact description was used to identify Oswald in the cinema. The forums answer: What a guy, get that man a beer.
This forum shouldn't be called the JFK assassination forum it should be called the JFK official narrative assassination forum.
Arlen Specter, a congressman. not a lawyer, not a weapons expert, not a forensic pathologist, not an investigator, not anything but a congressman. He comes up with a theory that a bullet can do all kinds of weird things even though the Connally's told him it didn't happen that way and you believed it hook line and sinker.
Very good - crack on.

I don't support the SBT, but Specter did graduate from Yale Law School in 1956. Give the man his due.

JFK Assassination Discussion & Debate / Re: On the Trail of Delusion Episode 39 with Bill Brown on location in Oak Cliff

« Last post by Martin Weidmann on Today at 08:33:57 PM »

Quote from: Bill Brown on Yesterday at 10:06:34 PM

Who's saying your dumb ass has to wait?

You did:

Quote from: Bill Brown on Today at 05:57:55 PM

It's a process. It's taking time. Once everything is finished, it'll get posted. Could be another month; could be another year. Hold your breath, please.

I don't think holding my breath is an option. I'll be long dead before you produce the evidence to show the Ripley's "affidavits" are authentic.

JFK Assassination Discussion & Debate / Re: How Did Bart Kamp Create The Lovelady Image?

« Last post by Dan O'meara on Today at 08:18:30 PM »

Shelley on the first floor:

"And after the third shot, following that, the third shot, I went to the back of the building down the back stairs, and encountered Bill Shelley and Bill Lovelady on the first floor on the way out to the Houston Street dock."

What evidence exists supporting her constant insistence that she left the window she was looking out of within seconds of the shots?
Below is a plan of the fourth floor of the TSBD building. Adams worked in the office of Scott Foresman Co., where she watched the motorcade pass with Sandra Styles, Dorothy Garner and Elsie Dorman. The red box indicates the 5 double sets of windows for that office. The red "A" indicates Adams' location as the Presidential limo passed by. Her colleagues crowded around that double set of windows with Elsie Dorman filming the approaching limo.

Below is a photo taken by Tom Dillard. The red box indicates the same windows. Adams was stood at the open window marked with a red "A".

When we take a closer look at the window we notice that there is no-one stood where there should be four women watching the motorcade. We can see the figure of one woman standing in the window to the left of that. It appears Vicki had left her position by the window by the time this pic was taken.

The question is - how long after the assassination was this photo taken?
This is what Dillard has to say about the picture (quotes taken from Pat Speer's website):

"Bob Jackson, a photographer in my car, said, There's the rifle in that open window. In the three or four seconds it took me to locate the particular open window and make a picture, the rifle had been withdrawn."
"Bob Jackson said, “There’s a guy with a rifle up in that window.” I said, “Where?” I had both cameras around my neck, loaded, focused, cocked…Bob says, “In that window up on that building right there, it’s that top window.” I shot a picture with the wide-angle camera. I said, “Which window?” He said, “It’s the one on the right, second from the top.” By that time, I had the 100mm camera up, shot a picture of that window…."

Clearly this is literally a few seconds after the shooting has occurred as he just missed the rifle being drawn back into the window. On Mark Tyler's Motorcade Mapping website the Dillard pic is taken 11 seconds after the headshot. The limo has barely got out of the Triple Underpass

The Dillard picture is incredibly strong evidence that Adams took off running about 10 seconds after the last shot. This decision was made before the limo even reached the Underpass.

"As the car came back into view I saw that something was wrong and watched as Mrs. Kennedy appeared to be trying to climb out of the car. I saw a Secret Service man jump in and the car began speeding toward the triple underpass. Before it reached that [the triple underpass] I turned to Sandra and I said, 'I want to see what is going on.' We ran to the back of the office and down the stairs."

How long would it take a young women running full tilt in high heels to get down 3 flights of stairs - 30 seconds? 40 seconds?
Let's say her estimate of reaching the first floor one minute after the shooting is conservative, the question remains, what were Lovelady and Shelley doing there?
It must be noted, this mention of Lovelady and Shelley did not first come about during Adams' WC testimony:

"When the President got in front of us I heard someone call him and he turned. That is when I heard the first shot. I thought it was a firecracker. Then the second shot I saw the Secret Service man run to the back of the President's car. After the third shot I went out the back door. I said, 'I think someone has been shot.' The elevator was not running and there was no one on the stairs. I went down to the first floor. I saw Mr. Shelly and another employee named Bill. The freight elevator had not moved, and I still did not see anyone on the stairs. I ran out the back door of the depository..."
(2-17-64 statement to the Dallas Police Department, box 3 folder 19 file 3 of the Dallas JFK Archive)[Speer]

What is the importance of Shelley and Lovelady lying about their movements after the assassination?
What compelled them to race towards the back of the first floor?

JFK Assassination Discussion & Debate / Re: How Did Bart Kamp Create The Lovelady Image?

« Last post by Dan O'meara on Today at 08:07:51 PM »

Quote from: Lance Payette on July 24, 2026, 02:46:28 AM

Just for the sake of argument, let's say I have vastly more intelligence than you and see where that goes ...

Hmmm...this superior intelligence you often like to boast about...I've never seen it or anything even remotely like it.
In nearly every interaction we have I make an obvious point and you fall to pieces, often running away.
Sometimes even quitting the forum.
I see you've started with the 'aliens' thing already. I imagine you think this is really clever or something...

Quote

Sure, I can agree to anything in the context of a thought experiment. If Shelley and Lovelady were on the TSBD steps when the shooting occurred and at the freight elevators seconds later, logic would dictate that they ~~were teleported by aliens~~ - no, strike that, that they walked back there through the front entrance.

The value of a thought experiment hinges to a large extent on its plausibility. Otherwise, of what use is it? This was the problem with your LBJ-Byrd-Cason-Shelley-Dougherty thought experiment. When you acknowledged that it couldn't account for Oswald, I think most folks sensed the thought air going out of your thought balloon. Poof.

I will admit I haven't read The Girl On the Stairs. However, is it correct that Vicki herself in that book disavows saying she saw Shelley and Lovelady and claiming that the relevant portion of her WC testimony doesn't even sound like her, as Roger Odisio states in this thread at the Ed Forum? https://educationforum.ipbhost.com/topic/30023-vickie-adams-interview/. If that weren't sufficient, the thread opens by linking to a 1966 interview in which Vicki apparently claimed that she did see Shelley! Is Vicki's credibility hanging by a thread, or is that my imagination?

The plausibiity of your thought experiment also hinges on (1) Styles, who was there, either being flat wrong or lying for no apparent reason, and (2) the photo that clearly shows Shelley and Lovelady walking down the Elm Street extension not being Shelley and Lovelady, with fellow gung-ho CTer Bart Kamp having faked said photo for no apparent reason. All of this to prop up some elaborate conspiracy scenario that apparently requires two TSBD clucks like Shelley and Lovelady as well as the WC staff to be at least after-the-fact participants.

Pretty thin thought experiment gruel, it seems to me. Occam and I continue to prefer our version whereby Vicki actually does see Shelley and Lovelady a wee bit later than she recalled, which has the beauty of still allowing CTers to argue that the two cuties were teleported from the fourth floor by aliens and should have heard or encountered Oswald if he'd been coming down the stairs.

Is Vicki's credibility hanging by a thread, or is that my imagination?

There's so many ways to make a fool of you but I can't let the audacity of you, of all people, bringing up 'credibility'.
Let's have a quick look at the credibility of Lovelady regarding his movements after the shooting:
In his affidavit, taken hours after the shooting, he doesn't leave the steps and re-enters the building with Shelley. Is that the truth?
In his FBI statements, he states that he and Shelley ran to where the limo had sped off and hung around there for 5 minutes. Is that the truth?
In his FBI statement, Shelley stated he and Lovelady escorted police officers along the extension and stayed in the railroad yards for 10 minutes. True?
In his WC testimony, Lovelady waited on the steps for at least 3 minutes before heading along the extension. Is that true?
In his HSCA interview he stated that he didn't re-enter the building for 15 - 20 minutes. Is that the truth?
How 'credible' is convicted gun-runner Lovelady? Which of his lies do you choose to opt for?
Incredibly, the answer to that question is that you don't accept any of his lies.
Instead, you made up your own lie in order to account for how Lovelady could have an interaction with Gloria and be seen walking along the extension seconds after the shooting.
The lie you made up was that, immediately after the shooting, Lovelady ran across to the little, old island where he met Gloria before heading along the extension.
How intelligent is that?
Literally make up a scenario that isn't covered in any of the pack of lies Lovelady told about his movements after the shooting. Maybe it's your own credibility that should be examined.

JFK Assassination Discussion & Debate / The James Files and Malcolm Summers connection.

« Last post by James Slater on Today at 07:55:05 PM »

Been sifting through the house select committee on assassinations archives of late and I found a rather interesting plug by Malcolm Summers who was a witness.
He states that three men in a maroon 61/62 Chevy turned onto Houston dangerously after the assassination and went down Houston. Files states that himself, Roselli and Nicoletti turned onto Houston in a 63 burgundy Chevy.
See for yourself:

JFK Assassination Discussion & Debate / Re: Credibility of the Zapruder film. CIA employee Dino Brugioni's account.

« Last post by Tommy Shanks on Today at 07:53:54 PM »

Brugoni is not a credible witness, as people like Pat Speer have illuminated: https://www.patspeer.com/chapter-19d-stuck-in-the-middle-with-you

Another researcher named Craig Bouzarth has also done some great work on the Z-film, and I am convinced he's once and for all shown that the film couldn't have been altered.

JFK Assassination Discussion & Debate / Re: Why do JFK assassination forums draw so many nut cases?

« Last post by James Slater on Today at 07:48:05 PM »

Quote from: John Corbett on Today at 05:25:46 PM

There are alternate narratives but there is only one truth and that is that Oswald fired the shots that struck and killed JFK and about 45 minutes later gunned down a Dallas cop. Any conspiracy theory hinges on the ability to provide evidence that Oswald acted in concert with one or more individuals in the murder of JFK. To date, no such credible evidence has ever been provided. Just lots of nonsense.

That is your opinion and your opinion is not the be all and end all of assassination research.
I get it, you've chosen the official narrative and you won't be budged. I'll tell you what, if you think you are 100% correct then swear by almighty God and on the lives of your children and relatives that Oswald acted alone because 99% of official narrative proponents won't do that.
Go ahead.

JFK Assassination Discussion & Debate / Re: Mary Woodward said there were 3 shots and the 1st shot missed everything

« Last post by Tom Graves on Today at 07:04:39 PM »

Quote from: John Corbett on Today at 05:36:42 PM

She said the first shot didn't hit anybody in the limo. Deal with it.

If the first, "backfire-like," shot had hit JFK or JBC, Woodward would have noticed it.

She said JFK "slumped" after the second shot, and that Jackie stood up and fell on top of JFK after the third-and-final shot.

Although Woodward was wrong to say that JFK and Jackie turned, smiled, and waved at her and her three colleagues before the first, missing-everything, shot, she was correct in saying that both of them turned, smiled, and waved at them at some point.

As to when, exactly, they did that, we can see that JFK, having just turned his head back from his left to his right, is waving at them from about Z-175 on, and we can see that Jackie, who was looking to her left until about Z-175, is looking straight-ahead-ish in Z-180, and has turned her head far to her right in Z-190 (presumably she isn't scowling at Woodward and Co. and giving them the finger, but smiling and waving at them, like her husband).

https://assassinationresearch.com/zfilm/z190.jpg

Jackie is still looking far to her right when she emerges from behind the Stemmons Freeway sign in Z-221.

https://assassinationresearch.com/zfilm/z221.jpg

JFK Assassination Discussion & Debate / Re: Mary Woodward said there were 3 shots and the 1st shot missed everything

« Last post by Royell Storing on Today at 06:58:14 PM »

Quote from: Andrew Mason on Today at 05:15:51 PM

A big "if". Not only did Woodward know where she was standing, she described it in detail in her FBI statement: "They walked to Elm Street and stopped in front of the Texas School Book Depository building, but were located a short distance down the street near the second light post. There were standing in this spot when the Presidential Motorcade came by."

She then went on to tell the FBI that they cheered loudly as the President and Mrs. Kennedy went by. "Just as President and Mrs. Kennedy went by, they turned and waved at them. Just a second or two later (ie. after JFK and Jackie turned and waved at them) she heard a loud noise."

JFK began that turn and wave at z172. A second after that is z190. Two seconds is z208.

So just where do you believe the "2nd light post" was? The Woodward description you have posted above is consistent with her originally claiming to be within 10 ft of the Newman Family/ people covering a child. As pictured, Woodward was closer to the 1st light post and the RL Thornton sign. She had No Idea where she stood and her memory lapse extended into her, "The Men Who Killed Kennedy", interview 25 yrs after the fact.

JFK Assassination Discussion & Debate / Re: JFK Hands Never Go To-Or Toward-His Throat

« Last post by Royell Storing on Today at 06:49:22 PM »

Quote from: John Corbett on Today at 05:18:53 PM

Is that what you took from what I wrote? JBC didn't turn around and face JFK until more than two seconds after he was shot. The flipping of his right arm was almost immediate. It happened less than 1/4 second after he was hit.

What you are describing probably qualifies for the Guinness World Record, "Longest Delayed Reaction To Multiple Major Injuries".

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