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   If you read the "News About The Darnell Film" thread by Roger Odisio on the Education Forum you will see the information about the 6th Floor Museum copy of Darnell...In that thread Pat Speer maligns me and says I was a serial insulter whose posts were full of anger and vitriol...Pat is a dirty player who is intentionally sucking up to James Gordon with that slander for the purpose of not allowing my evidence and for keeping the clique intact...What Speer is really doing is dog whistling to make sure my evidence is never shown on the board that proved I was correct...Vinny Palamara was kind enough to post a request that I be allowed to defend my own work on the forum but that request was denied...The Education Forum prefers to duct tape someone's mouth shut and tie their hands behind their back and only allow one side to post - even if the person being censored was correct...People are best slandered and their evidence ignored when they are censored and can't defend themselves...Even though you could plainly see the female dress neckline in the clips posted by Ulrik the issue was decided by Sandy Larsen who had the last word and said the neckline was a CIA forgery...

"The Darnell Film At The 6th Floor Museum" thread on Bart Kamp's Prayer Man site is informational - however be aware that Kamp's website is fatally biased and excludes information about Prayer Man being Stanton...There is a link on that page showing the history of the film...

Asking posters to document commonly understood things is an obstruction tactic that is used to wear down the opponent...We can safely assume that Jones' copy was a 1st generation film to film copy from all that is known about it...If we lack information on the film's provenance it is directly due to the Prayer Man people willfully avoiding any investigation of that information...I direct people to The Education Forum thread for a good example of organized dishonesty and evasion of evidence under the color of academic discussion...As if a clear image of Sarah Stanton's dress neckline on Prayer Man wasn't good enough...Oh, was I showing "anger and vitriol" there?...
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Why should LNs be objective. We figured out a long time ago that Oswald killed JFK by himself. It is no longer an open question. Hasn't been for a long, long time.

Actually, Russo co-authored the book with Stephen Molton.

Anyway, your bombastic verbiage -- "forced at gunpoint by a foaming-at-the-mouth conspiracy fantasist" -- suggests a severe bias.

Yes it is. A bias toward the truth.

You act as if this is a multiple choice exercise. It's not. There is only one truth.
You seem to have a low bar for whom you consider scholars.
That's right. DVP didn't have trouble figuring this out. It's really pretty obvious Oswald did it and there is no credible evidence he had even a single accomplice. Given that the CT have had 62 years to search for evidence that somebody other than Oswald was complicit in the crime and have come up empty, why should anyone entertain the possibility others were involved.
DVD has lots of credibility and anyone who looks at the evidence objectively and applies common sense will reach the same conclusions he has.
You've always seemed to favor quantity over quality. It's reflected in your posts.
I'd estimate the 90+% of those people are ignorant of the evidence of Oswald's guilt and probably got most of their knowledge from Oliver Stone's shitty movie.
Keep clinging to that crap. It's all you have.
The HSCA was a cluster. The only things it got right were the things they agreed with the WC on.
The SBT wins by default because in 62 years, no one has been able to offer a plausible alternative that explains JFK's non-fatal wounds and all of JBC's. No one can come up with another explanation that tells us where other shots could have been fired from and the wounds they could have caused. I know you won't be able to. If you could've you would've.
The WC offered several possible scenarios. The consensus of modern LNs conforms to one of those scenarios, that the first shot missed, the second was the single bullet, and the third was the fatal headshot. None of that conflicts with the findings of the WC. The are a few nutty LNs who have come up with goofy alternatives but that is not the fault of the WC.

As for motive, no one can know for sure what Oswald's motive was nor is it necessary to prove why he did it to prove that he did it.

Your frequent message formatting errors, grammatical errors, and punctuation errors suggest you're in no position to be deciding who is a scholar and who is not, much less to be making sweeping pronouncements about JFKA evidence and research.

As for your comment about motive, ask any prosecutor and they'll tell you that in a complex or strongly contested case, establishing motive is very important for the prosecution--both in identifying a suspect in the first place and in persuading a jury of guilt in a trial.

Ask any detective about motive, and they'll tell you that one of the main things they seek to establish is whether the suspect had a motive.  If they've identified two possible suspects and one suspect had no motive and the other suspect did have a motive, they will see the latter person as the more likely suspect, all other things being relatively equal.

I had to giggle when I read your first sentence (which you failed to punctuate correctly, but anyway. . . .):

Why should LNs be objective.[?]

LOL! Yeah, gee, why should they be objective?! Humm, maybe because being objective is a key principle of critical thinking? Maybe because being objective is a hallmark of credibility, education, and an open mind?

Perhaps you should change your forum name to John "I Don't Need No Stinkin' Objectivity" Corbett.

Here's one book that very few have read, but one that carries a ring of truth... by one of the three tramps... Chauncey Holt's book,Self-Portrait of a Scoundrel...

Huh, in reading the description of the book on Amazon, I find myself thinking I might just read it. It sounds like an interesting book, assuming he did in fact write it. I heard years ago that he'd written a book but never gave it a second thought.
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Bullseye. Fauci and crew mocked the argument that COVID-19 came from a lab in Wuhan, and their cheerleaders in most of the legacy news outlets heaped scorn on those who made the argument. Now, as you point out, we know better and have pretty good evidence that the virus did come from the Wuhan lab. A U.S. House select subcommittee concluded that substantial evidence and classified documents indicate the virus escaped from the Wuhan lab.

Exactly: Some conspiracy theories are true; some are plausible but false; and some are just plain nutty. Hundreds of people each year are convicted of conspiracy, and a few of the conspiracies have been somewhat large and elaborate.

It is reaching pretty low and pretty badly to cite some anonymous caller on a radio talk show and to use that as a strawman basis for attacking all conspiracy theories.

And, yes, I think Charlie Kirk was murdered by Tyler Robinson acting alone.

The strawman argument is coming from you. I did not attack all conspiracy theories. I specifically stated, "No one disputes that conspiracies do happen.". Why would you interpret that statement as an attack on all conspiracy theories? My point in starting this thread was to show some people are predisposed to assume conspiracies even when there is no credible evidence of such.
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Yes.  But there is a difference between what the WC members thought and what they said in the WR.  They said in the WR that the SBT did not matter and was not essential to their conclusion.  But Commission counsel and at least 4 members actually thought it was.  My point was that despite saying that the first, second or third shots may have missed, it was clear from McCloy that he thought the first shot struck both JFK and JBC and was the only shot to strike JBC.  Arlen Specter also thought this because he concluded that Connally was incorrect in thinking he was hit by the second shot.  Here is what he said in Life Magazine in 1966:


All Connally had said is that he was sure he heard the first shot before he felt the impact of the second shot. He never testified that he saw JFK hit by the first shot.  So by saying the Connally was incorrect was saying that Connally was hit by the first shot.  That was the clear impression left by the WC until the HSCA in 1978 suggested that the first shot may have been much earlier and missed, based on the acoustic evidence (which we now know was wrong).

McCloy's opinion was his, not the opinion of the WCR which stated plainly and unambiguously that the missed shot could have been any of the three shots and they did not indicate a preference for any of them. The WCR should be judged on what it said, not on what people think it said.
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Here's one book that very few have read, but one that carries a ring of truth... by one of the three tramps... Chauncey Holt's book, Self-Portrait of a Scoundrel...

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It was not until the HSCA used audio analysis to suggest an early missed first shot that anyone seriously considered that the first shot missed.  If you can find any serious publication prior to the HSCA report in which it was seriously proposed that the first shot missed I will stand corrected.


This snip from the WCR seems to me to be the WC seriously considering whether or not the first shot missed:
Yes.  But there is a difference between what the WC members thought and what they said in the WR.  They said in the WR that the SBT did not matter and was not essential to their conclusion.  But Commission counsel and at least 4 members actually thought it was.  My point was that despite saying that the first, second or third shots may have missed, it was clear from McCloy that he thought the first shot struck both JFK and JBC and was the only shot to strike JBC.  Arlen Specter also thought this because he concluded that Connally was incorrect in thinking he was hit by the second shot.  Here is what he said in Life Magazine in 1966:


All Connally had said is that he was sure he heard the first shot before he felt the impact of the second shot. He never testified that he saw JFK hit by the first shot.  So by saying the Connally was incorrect was saying that Connally was hit by the first shot.  That was the clear impression left by the WC until the HSCA in 1978 suggested that the first shot may have been much earlier and missed, based on the acoustic evidence (which we now know was wrong).
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If I were asked to provide a second list of six books that I'd recommend to a newcomer who wanted to gain a decent understanding of the JFK case, I'd recommend the following six additional books:

-- Not In Your Lifetime: The Assassination of JFK, by Anthony Summers. One of the all-time classics in JFK assassination research, this book argues for a conspiracy led by the Mafia and examines some of the problems with the case against Oswald. Summers has arguably interviewed more JFKA witnesses than any other scholar. 

-- Cover-Up, by Stewart Galanor. This book focuses on the evidence of multiple gunmen, including a grassy knoll gunman, and discusses some of the problems with the case against Oswald. It does not seek to identify who was behind the conspiracy.

-- JFK Medical Betrayal: Where the Evidence Lies, by Russell Kent. This is one of the best books ever written on the evidence of fraud in the autopsy photos and x-rays and on the problems with the lone-gunman interpretations of the medical evidence. Kent, a physiologist, consulted extensively with renowned forensic experts Dr. Vincent DiMaio, Dr. Henry Lee, and Dr. Cyril Wecht in his research for the book.

-- A Comforting Lie: The Myth That a Lone Gunman Killed President Kennedy, by yours truly. I've had several people tell me they thought my book was "the best book I have ever read" on the JFK case.

-- Reclaiming History: The Assassination of President John F. Kennedy, by Vincent Bugliosi. This is arguably the most detailed defense of the lone-gunman theory ever published, but it is ponderously long and sometimes hard to read due to poor writing.

-- Mortal Error: The Shot That Killed JFK, by Bonar Menninger (with Howard Donahue). This book argues that Oswald was the lone assassin, that Oswald fired two shots, and that there was no conspiracy, but that a Secret Service agent accidentally fired the shot that hit JFK in the head. It is based on the research of Howard Donahue, who was a court-certified ballistics and firearms expert (and also a world-class rifleman).

I should point out that I have read all the books that I recommend in the OP and in this reply. As a matter of principle, I don't recommend or criticize any books that I haven't read.
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When COVID-19 emerged, I suspected its origin was a lab leak in Wuhan, China. I had a lot of reason, but that's another story.

At one point the Columbia Journalism Review, the industry flag-carrier, called the lab leak narrative a "debunked conspiracy theory." The CT'ers were small and ridiculed band.

Later, the lab leak theory became somewhat accepted as the more-likely explanation of the COVID-19 virus.

Lesson: Some CT's hold water, and some do not.

I suspect Charlie Kirk was murdered by a mentally ill lone nut.

Bullseye. Fauci and crew mocked the argument that COVID-19 came from a lab in Wuhan, and their cheerleaders in most of the legacy news outlets heaped scorn on those who made the argument. Now, as you point out, we know better and have pretty good evidence that the virus did come from the Wuhan lab. A U.S. House select subcommittee concluded that substantial evidence and classified documents indicate the virus escaped from the Wuhan lab.

Exactly: Some conspiracy theories are true; some are plausible but false; and some are just plain nutty. Hundreds of people each year are convicted of conspiracy, and a few of the conspiracies have been somewhat large and elaborate.

It is reaching pretty low and pretty badly to cite some anonymous caller on a radio talk show and to use that as a strawman basis for attacking all conspiracy theories.

And, yes, I think Charlie Kirk was murdered by Tyler Robinson acting alone. 

 
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The provenance of the Jones copy is easily researchable...

Jones died in 1993...This news story about the 6th Floor Museum getting his films was from 1998:

Google: "NBC 5's JFK footage to go to Sixth Floor Museum" for the news video on the 6th Floor Museum getting the films...

The only way the features in the 6th Floor Museum copy would be sharper is if it was a 1st generation copy...

The Jones Collection started in 1970 and I assume that was a date where only film to film copies were available...And Jones may have gotten the Darnell Film copy before that...

   There is nothing about Prof Jones in the the info above. There is No Specific Mention of Darnell or Wiegman or their films in the News Video either. And "NBC 5" is NOT the same as "NBC". Your enthusiasm has you making numerous unsubstantiated claims.
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And that says volumes about your credibility and objectivity.

Why should LNs be objective. We figured out a long time ago that Oswald killed JFK by himself. It is no longer an open question. Hasn't been for a long, long time.
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Actually, Russo co-authored the book with Stephen Molton.

Anyway, your bombastic verbiage -- "forced at gunpoint by a foaming-at-the-mouth conspiracy fantasist" -- suggests a severe bias.

Yes it is. A bias toward the truth.
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I, for one, would not need to have a "foaming-at-the-mouth lone-gunman theorist" put a gun to my head to get me to recommend a pro-WC book to a newcomer. I listed two anti-conspiracy books in my list of six books because I have enough objectivity and critical thinking skills to understand that it would show excessive bias and violate basic critical thinking principles to only recommend pro-conspiracy books to newcomers.

You act as if this is a multiple choice exercise. It's not. There is only one truth.
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"Big problems," huh? That's curious because Brothers in Arms was widely acclaimed--it received positive reviews from scholars on both sides of the debate, from Anthony Summers to Daniel Schorr to Seymour Hersh.

You seem to have a low bar for whom you consider scholars.
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You claim the book has "big problems" because your version of the assassination says that not only was Oswald the only gunman but that he had no accomplices of any kind at any point before or after the shooting, not even accessories before or after the fact.

That's right. DVP didn't have trouble figuring this out. It's really pretty obvious Oswald did it and there is no credible evidence he had even a single accomplice. Given that the CT have had 62 years to search for evidence that somebody other than Oswald was complicit in the crime and have come up empty, why should anyone entertain the possibility others were involved.
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This is another statement that says volumes about your credibility and objectivity.

DVD has lots of credibility and anyone who looks at the evidence objectively and applies common sense will reach the same conclusions he has.
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In other words, you'd recommend the report of a seven-member presidential commission, with a total staff of 27, that conducted an admittedly hurried investigation (fewer than 10 months), when we now know that three of the commission members disagreed with the report's key findings, but you wouldn't recommend the report of a select committee of the U.S. House of Representatives composed of 12 congressmen (only three of whom dissented) and that had a much larger staff, that consulted a much larger number and variety of experts, and that conducted a much longer investigation (nearly 2 years).

You've always seemed to favor quantity over quality. It's reflected in your posts.
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If so, why do you suppose the lone-gunman view is rejected by 2/3 to 3/4 of the Western world? It's not like the lone-gunman view has suffered from a lack of cheerleading and advocacy by many legacy news outlets. Most people just don't buy what you're selling.

I'd estimate the 90+% of those people are ignorant of the evidence of Oswald's guilt and probably got most of their knowledge from Oliver Stone's shitty movie.
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And the HSCA's acoustical evidence, far from having been "completely discredited and disproven," has been confirmed by new research done by BBN acoustical scientists from 2015 to 2018.

Keep clinging to that crap. It's all you have.
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Furthermore, it cannot be repeated too often that the NRC/NAS panel that was formed to discredit the acoustical evidence (1) admitted  there's a 93% probability that the timing-movement correlations identified by the BBN scientists between the dictabelt and the Dealey Plaza test firing occurred because the dictabelt recorded gunfire in Dealey Plaza, and (2) admitted there's a 77.7% probability that the 144.9 impulse pattern, identified by the HSCA's acoustical scientists as gunfire from the grassy knoll, is in fact gunfire from the knoll.

Oh, boy. To put it more bluntly, you would cherry pick five findings that you like from a 734-page report and ignore the rest of the report.

The HSCA was a cluster. The only things it got right were the things they agreed with the WC on.
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BTW, as former HSCA staffers have explained, before BBN's chief scientist announced BBN's preliminary findings on the acoustical evidence, the HSCA had already found evidence of Ruby's significant Mafia ties, had already found evidence that the WC was mistaken about how Ruby entered the police basement to kill Oswald, had already found evidence that Ruby lied about why he shot Oswald, had already found evidence that Oswald was being impersonated in Mexico City in the weeks before the assassination, had already found evidence that someone was moving boxes in the sixth-floor window within 2 minutes after the assassination at a time when Oswald could not have been there, had already found evidence that Oswald associated with David Ferrie and Clay Shaw, and had already found evidence that Silvia Odio's account was credible.

Actually, newcomers who read those books will quickly see that they contain plenty of "conjecture, speculation, guesswork," starting with the ludicrous and thoroughly debunked single-bullet theory (SBT).

The SBT wins by default because in 62 years, no one has been able to offer a plausible alternative that explains JFK's non-fatal wounds and all of JBC's. No one can come up with another explanation that tells us where other shots could have been fired from and the wounds they could have caused. I know you won't be able to. If you could've you would've.
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Newcomers will also notice that pro-WC books markedly contradict each other regarding the timing of the shots, the timing of the hits, the location of JFK's rear head entry wound, the location of JFK's back wound, the trajectory of the SBT's alleged magic bullet through JFK and Connally, Oswald's motives, etc., etc.

Humm, could this be part of the reason that your view of the JFK assassination is rejected by 2/3 to 3/4 of the Western world?

The WC offered several possible scenarios. The consensus of modern LNs conforms to one of those scenarios, that the first shot missed, the second was the single bullet, and the third was the fatal headshot. None of that conflicts with the findings of the WC. The are a few nutty LNs who have come up with goofy alternatives but that is not the fault of the WC.

As for motive, no one can know for sure what Oswald's motive was nor is it necessary to prove why he did it to prove that he did it.
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