JFK Assassination Forum

Aside from Royell now thinking JFK was gagging on a bullet stuck in his throat like a recalcitrant meatball - which was of course entirely predictable from Team Royell - I am still somewhat lost as to what all this has to do with anything.

Nellie Connally, whom most folks here seem convinced was a hallucinatory housewife unworthy of being taken seriously, told CBS "The first sound, the first shot, I heard, and turned and looked right into the President's face. He was clutching his throat, and just slumped down. He just had a look of nothingness on his face." At the WC, she said JFK "reached up to his throat," "had both hands on his throat," and "it seemed to me there was - he made no utterance, no cry. I saw no blood, no anything. It was just sort of nothing, the expression on his face, and he just sort of slumped down." Apart from whether JFK was actually clutching his throat, Nellie's observations seem hard to square with gagging and wiping blood.

In my extensive research of this issue  , I did discover that Josiah Thompson and Pat Speer were in agreement way back in 2010 that the Thorburn reflex argument had been a "dead puppy" (Tink's phrase) for years and had been invented by Medical Quack Lattimer and promoted by Lying Fiend Posner to prop up the SBT and disguise the fact that JFK and JBC were hit by different shots. Here is what most folks seem to regard as the definitive refutation of the Thorburn argument: http://www.assassinationweb.com/milam-thor.htm. Based on this, Dr. Payette revises his opinion to "I have no clue and don't really care. What's for lunch?"

It is interesting how consistently - and I mean CONSISTENTLY - the phrase "clutching his throat" is used in reference to JFK and specifically Altgens6 as though it were mandatory. However, at the Ed Forum there were those who pointed out that JFK is not really "clutching" his throat.

Dr. Payette still maintains - while eschewing the term "opinion" - that what we see is in fact a reflex. James Gordon - remember him? - made the following point along the same lines in 2012. He suggested that while what we see may not in fact be exactly a Thorburn reaction, it is a reflex from nerve damage:

I thought I made it clear that the “Thorburn Reflex” was not necessarily my position. I certainly intended to make that clear. Having said that, what is described as this “Reflex” perfectly reflects what we see JFK doing with his arms.

The main point of my previous post was that the strange event of JFK’s arms were a direct consequence of the nerve damage when C7 was struck by the bullet. As I have pointed out the damage to that muscle is so extensive it was bound to have a consequence on the nerve structure attached to these muscle and the spinal cord directly behind the muscles. The reason I raised “Thorburn’s Reflex” was because that state suggests that once enacted it is difficult move the arms. The nerves that cause this don’t allow it. In the image below I have taken a series of frames to illustrate this point. Even with Jackie attempting to move the left arm it will not move. It is only when the head shot takes place, which destroys the entire nerve system, that the arms relax.

What I am trying to point out is that the impact with C7 did not just damage that Transverse Process, it also severely damaged the Intervertebral Disc C06 C07. And that damage had a major impact on the Cervical Nerves. It is that damage that caused the arms to rise and lock. They were only released when the entire nervous system was destroyed or severely damaged by the head shot.

The frames that James references are Z249, 273, 277, 308, 316. His post is here: https://www.jfkassassinationforum.com/index.php?action=post;quote=181318;topic=5057.21.

Why is it necessary to think Nellie was hallucinating to determine that she didn't perceive the event accurately? The shooting caught everyone by surprised and three shots were fired in less than 9 seconds, her husband was seriously wounded and the President was murdered in that short span of time. It must have been a bewildering experience. Frankly, it would be amazing if she was able to coolly recall what happened and the order in which things occurred. I would think it would be a blur to her.

I agree with the evidence. I just don't agree with your FUBAR analysis of the evidence. It is comical that anyone could look at the Z-film and conclude JBC was not hit until Z270.

Many/most CTs argue that JBC was hit some time in the mid-Z230s. While I disagree with their assessment, it is reasonable based on JBC's assessment. It ignores JBC's obvious arm flip at Z226 but it recognizes the obvious gyrations JBC went into following the arm flip. Your scenario is just plain cuckoo.

Who said JBC did not immediately fall back upon being hit on the second shot but twisted around for several seconds afterward? (answer:no one) Who said he did fall back immediately? (JBC, Powers, Nellie, Greer, Gayle Newman-all, apparently as cuckoo as me).

CTs accept that JBC is reacting by z235 because they want to believe that two shots were fired in a space of 20 seconds or less.  But, according to the 45+ who swore the last two shots were close together, and Altgens, Powers, Nellie, Greer, Hickey, only one shot has occurred at that point.  So the SBT does not rebut the CT scenario: by affirming, despite the evidence, that JBC has received his chest wound by z235, it feeds it.

Funny how cases are solved by key witness evidence. But, in this case, all the witnesses happened to share the same recollections that, co-incidentally, all fit together perfectly but were just imagined. Amazing.

Even before I saw David Von Pein's excellent website on the SBT, it appeared to me when looking at the Z-film at normal speed that JFK's upward movement of his arms coincideed with his reappearance from behind the sign. It was only after seeing DVP's webpage that I realized there was a one frame delay between his reappearance and the upward movement of the arms. The naked eye can't detect that one frame delay of 1/18 of a second between his reappearance and the upward movement of his arms.

Also when looking are the Z-film at normal speed, it appears JBC's gyrations began almost immediately after he reappeared. His bending and twisting to the right began less than a second after he reappeared from behind that sign.  His arm flip started about a quarter second after he reappeared and his dip to the right occurred about a half second after that.

Aside from Royell now thinking JFK was gagging on a bullet stuck in his throat like a recalcitrant meatball - which was of course entirely predictable from Team Royell - I am still somewhat lost as to what all this has to do with anything.

Nellie Connally, whom most folks here seem convinced was a hallucinatory housewife unworthy of being taken seriously, told CBS "The first sound, the first shot, I heard, and turned and looked right into the President's face. He was clutching his throat, and just slumped down. He just had a look of nothingness on his face." At the WC, she said JFK "reached up to his throat," "had both hands on his throat," and "it seemed to me there was - he made no utterance, no cry. I saw no blood, no anything. It was just sort of nothing, the expression on his face, and he just sort of slumped down." Apart from whether JFK was actually clutching his throat, Nellie's observations seem hard to square with gagging and wiping blood.

In my extensive research of this issue  , I did discover that Josiah Thompson and Pat Speer were in agreement way back in 2010 that the Thorburn reflex argument had been a "dead puppy" (Tink's phrase) for years and had been invented by Medical Quack Lattimer and promoted by Lying Fiend Posner to prop up the SBT and disguise the fact that JFK and JBC were hit by different shots. Here is what most folks seem to regard as the definitive refutation of the Thorburn argument: http://www.assassinationweb.com/milam-thor.htm. Based on this, Dr. Payette revises his opinion to "I have no clue and don't really care. What's for lunch?"

It is interesting how consistently - and I mean CONSISTENTLY - the phrase "clutching his throat" is used in reference to JFK and specifically Altgens6 as though it were mandatory. However, at the Ed Forum there were those who pointed out that JFK is not really "clutching" his throat.

Dr. Payette still maintains - while eschewing the term "opinion" - that what we see is in fact a reflex. James Gordon - remember him? - made the following point along the same lines in 2012. He suggested that while what we see may not in fact be exactly a Thorburn reaction, it is a reflex from nerve damage:

I thought I made it clear that the “Thorburn Reflex” was not necessarily my position. I certainly intended to make that clear. Having said that, what is described as this “Reflex” perfectly reflects what we see JFK doing with his arms.

The main point of my previous post was that the strange event of JFK’s arms were a direct consequence of the nerve damage when C7 was struck by the bullet. As I have pointed out the damage to that muscle is so extensive it was bound to have a consequence on the nerve structure attached to these muscle and the spinal cord directly behind the muscles. The reason I raised “Thorburn’s Reflex” was because that state suggests that once enacted it is difficult move the arms. The nerves that cause this don’t allow it. In the image below I have taken a series of frames to illustrate this point. Even with Jackie attempting to move the left arm it will not move. It is only when the head shot takes place, which destroys the entire nerve system, that the arms relax.

What I am trying to point out is that the impact with C7 did not just damage that Transverse Process, it also severely damaged the Intervertebral Disc C06 C07. And that damage had a major impact on the Cervical Nerves. It is that damage that caused the arms to rise and lock. They were only released when the entire nervous system was destroyed or severely damaged by the head shot.

The frames that James references are Z249, 273, 277, 308, 316. His post is here: https://www.jfkassassinationforum.com/index.php?action=post;quote=181318;topic=5057.21.

Here's CBS Evening News from last night. Tell me where in it you find the Bolton story:

https://www.cbsnews.com/video/062626-cbs-evening-news/

It is right here:
https://www.cbsnews.com/video/john-bolton-former-trump-national-security-adviser-pleads-guilty-to-retaining-classified-information/

They even did a full written summary:
https://www.cbsnews.com/news/john-bolton-guilty-plea-retaining-classified-national-security-information/

I'm not suggesting anything. 

I am pointing out that President Kennedy never touched his throat like just about everyone claims when they mention his reaction to the first shot.  Clearly, he never went for his throat.  Ever.  His right hand and arm jerk upward, his hand is open, giving the appearance that his hand is covering his mouth, while his arm is splayed upward and folded at the elbow.
 
Too many people watch the Zapruder film at slower than normal speed because too many people post the Zapruder film onto YouTube at a speed slower than 18.3 frames per second and overlook how fast his right comes up in front of his face to mouth level. The left hand is clearly not touching his throat either. as can clearly be seen.

Even before I saw David Von Pein's excellent website on the SBT, it appeared to me when looking at the Z-film at normal speed that JFK's upward movement of his arms coincideed with his reappearance from behind the sign. It was only after seeing DVP's webpage that I realized there was a one frame delay between his reappearance and the upward movement of the arms. The naked eye can't detect that one frame delay of 1/18 of a second between his reappearance and the upward movement of his arms.

Also when looking are the Z-film at normal speed, it appears JBC's gyrations began almost immediately after he reappeared. His bending and twisting to the right began less than a second after he reappeared from behind that sign.  His arm flip started about a quarter second after he reappeared and his dip to the right occurred about a half second after that.