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The JFK Assassination - Discussion & Debate / Re: The First Shot
« Last post by John Corbett on Yesterday at 10:55:26 PM »
John Lattimer's "bulging jacket tests": https://dn710700.ca.archive.org/0/items/nsia-LattimerJohnKDr/nsia-LattimerJohnKDr/Lattimer%20John%20K%20Dr%20109.pdf



And equally important test #2. If the bullet going through Connally was NOT tumbling when it hit him it wouldn't create a jacket bulge. This is because the resulting wound would have been smaller; there would less fragmentation of the ribs that contributed to the bulging. The bulging was not caused solely by the bullet exiting the chest; it was the bullet and the rib fragments exiting Connally's chest that caused it.



One thing I am curious about is what if any lag time there would be between the bullet passing through the jacket and the jacket bulging. Was Lattimer able to determine that. The reason I ask because in other super slow motion footage I've seen of a bullet passing through an object, the bullet exits and the debris it disperses follows behind the bullet. That kind of footage shows thousands of frames per second as opposed to 18 fps, but I think there still might be a lag time of a few frames.
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Connally's medical team would not have been aware of the fact that the bullet that struck JBC in the back had first passed through JFK and yawed upon exit. That produced an elongated entry wound that the medical team could have easily misinterpreted as a tangential strike which would produce such an elongated wound. The problem with that explanation is such a wound would have to have been fired from a near perpendicular angle to limo, which would mean a shot from the west end of the TSBD.
We know that the bullet did not come from the west end of the TSBD. If the doctors were correct, that would mean that JBC was not hit at z225.  It was not until about z250 that his torso was aligned so that a shot from the SN would have struck him with his torso nearly parallel to the flight of the bullet.

The doctors were just going by the wounds and path of the bullet through the body they observed and the fact that the wrist was turned back facing the bullet.  That appears to be the basis for their agreement that the torso was turned right and was "nearly parallel with the flight of the bullet". 
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Your frequent message formatting errors, grammatical errors, and punctuation errors suggest you're in no position to be deciding who is a scholar and who is not, much less to be making sweeping pronouncements about JFKA evidence and research.

There's one person I know is not a scholar and that would be the person I am responding to.

If I wanted to get into a pissing contest with you, I could point out your grammatical errors as well but pointing out your logical errors already consumes too much of my time.
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As for your comment about motive, ask any prosecutor and they'll tell you that in a complex or strongly contested case, establishing motive is very important for the prosecution--both in identifying a suspect in the first place and in persuading a jury of guilt in a trial.

Ask any detective about motive, and they'll tell you that one of the main things they seek to establish is whether the suspect had a motive.  If they've identified two possible suspects and one suspect had no motive and the other suspect did have a motive, they will see the latter person as the more likely suspect, all other things being relatively equal.

It can be important, especially in proving premeditation, but it is not necessary. It is only necessary to prove the accused committed the act. If proving a motive was a requirement, I could walk down a busy sidewalk in an urban area and randomly shoot and kill some poor schmuck in front of 20 witnesses and if the prosecutors couldn't prove why I did it, I would beat the rap. Do you honestly think that would be the case?

We don't have to prove why Oswald did it to prove that he did do it.
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I had to giggle when I read your first sentence (which you failed to punctuate correctly, but anyway. . . .):

All you do when you point out things like this reveal your pettiness.
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LOL! Yeah, gee, why should they be objective?! Humm, maybe because being objective is a key principle of critical thinking? Maybe because being objective is a hallmark of credibility, education, and an open mind?

Objectivity is something you should go into a case with. It is not something you should maintain at the end of the process. When a jury returns a guilty verdict, they have ceased to be objective. They have determined to their satisfaction that the accused is guilty of the crime with which they are accused. It would be pretty silly to still be objective about the JFKA 62 1/2 years after it was committed. Are you honestly going to tell us you are objective about the case?
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Perhaps you should change your forum name to John "I Don't Need No Stinkin' Objectivity" Corbett.

I don't need to change my forum name. I'll gladly say I don't need any objectivity. I figured out a long time ago Oswald was the assassin. You seem to be stuck in neutral.
I won't even bother to point out the double negative you just used.
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Huh, in reading the description of the book on Amazon, I find myself thinking I might just read it. It sounds like an interesting book, assuming he did in fact write it. I heard years ago that he'd written a book but never gave it a second thought.
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The JFK Assassination - Discussion & Debate / Re: The First Shot
« Last post by Steve M. Galbraith on Yesterday at 10:32:56 PM »
John Lattimer's "bulging jacket tests": https://dn710700.ca.archive.org/0/items/nsia-LattimerJohnKDr/nsia-LattimerJohnKDr/Lattimer%20John%20K%20Dr%20109.pdf



And equally important test #2. If the bullet going through Connally was NOT tumbling when it hit him it wouldn't create a jacket bulge. This is because the resulting wound would have been smaller; there would less fragmentation of the ribs that contributed to the bulging. The bulging was not caused solely by the bullet exiting the chest; it was the bullet and the rib fragments exiting Connally's chest that caused it.

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I see.  So that means we can say that the WC did not find the SBT was correct or necessary to their LN conclusion or that any shot missed:



I can agree with that!

One of the few things I disagree with the WCR about. They put that in due to the Commission members who refused to accept the TSBD, which is their fault. The SBT is what happened and the staff lawyers who did the bulk of the investigating knew it.
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I can agree with that.

Nellie and Gayle Newman both described JBC as being turned to the right when hit.

He was turned to his right when hit, dummy. At or about Z222. Immediately after that he turned even more dramatically to his right.
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But what I did not realize until today in looking through some of the Commission Documents was that Connally's medical team also agreed that JBC was turned right when hit.  In fact, a report prepared by ASAIC Warren in January 1964 following interviews with the doctors (labelled as CD 326), states that they agreed that his "Torso turned to the right and nearly parallel with the flight of the projectile".   



That would put the shot striking JBC sometime after z250.

Connally's medical team would not have been aware of the fact that the bullet that struck JBC in the back had first passed through JFK and yawed upon exit. That produced an elongated entry wound that the medical team could have easily misinterpreted as a tangential strike which would produce such an elongated wound. The problem with that explanation is such a wound would have to have been fired from a near perpendicular angle to limo, which would mean a shot from the west end of the TSBD.

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The JFK Assassination - Discussion & Debate / Re: The First Shot
« Last post by John Corbett on Yesterday at 10:11:40 PM »
I think if JFK had been hit at Z190, that at least ONE of those SS agents should have seen JFK move at least a little bit and the SS agents would probably have reacted by Z207. So the Z190 1st shot theory is improbable. There would be some indication in the Z -film at Z190-Z207 that JFK is reacting to a bullet passing thru his back and his throat. The only possibility is a 1.5 sec delayed reaction. Unfortunately that idea seems to have been refuted by a source posted by Dan O. indicating the involuntary nervous system reaction of the human body to being struck by a bullet is less than 0.5 sec. IDK if this is a universal phenomenon that applies in all cases of humans who have been struck by a bullet. However, when added with shooting thru foliage and lack of reaction by SS agents , the Z190 1st shot theory seems improbable. Probably only  Hawaii 5-0 Steve McGarret 
could rescue this theory and it probably would involve finding out if that Chinese Commie Wo Fat used some kind of different bullet.  :D

The first indication of a bullet strike inside the limo is the bulging of JBC's jacket at Z224. JFK would have been hit by that frame but since he is still hidden except for the left side of his torso and his right arm which is being lowered after waving to the crowd on the right. The right arm is still moving down at Z225 although a blurry enlargement of that frame indicates a distressed expression on JFK's face and JBC's right shoulder dips noticeably. The next frame both JFK and JBC suddenly and rapidly flip their arms upward. JFK is raising both hands up in front of his throat while JBC's right arm with his Stetson in his right hand starts to rise. JBC's rapid up and down arm movement lasts 9 frames, a half second, after which he dips to his right and doubles over. JFK after bringing his hands up to his throat then lowers his elbows and leans over to his left. It all fits. I don't know how any objective person could look at that sequence and dispute that BOTH men had been struck immediately before that began,  about Z222.
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   If you read the "News About The Darnell Film" thread by Roger Odisio on the Education Forum you will see the information about the 6th Floor Museum copy of Darnell...In that thread Pat Speer maligns me and says I was a serial insulter whose posts were full of anger and vitriol...Pat is a dirty player who is intentionally sucking up to James Gordon with that slander for the purpose of not allowing my evidence and for keeping the clique intact...What Speer is really doing is dog whistling to make sure my evidence is never shown on the board that proved I was correct...Vinny Palamara was kind enough to post a request that I be allowed to defend my own work on the forum but that request was denied...The Education Forum prefers to duct tape someone's mouth shut and tie their hands behind their back and only allow one side to post - even if the person being censored was correct...People are best slandered and their evidence ignored when they are censored and can't defend themselves...Even though you could plainly see the female dress neckline in the clips posted by Ulrik the issue was decided by Sandy Larsen who had the last word and said the neckline was a CIA forgery...

"The Darnell Film At The 6th Floor Museum" thread on Bart Kamp's Prayer Man site is informational - however be aware that Kamp's website is fatally biased and excludes information about Prayer Man being Stanton...There is a link on that page showing the history of the film...

Asking posters to document commonly understood things is an obstruction tactic that is used to wear down the opponent...We can safely assume that Jones' copy was a 1st generation film to film copy from all that is known about it...If we lack information on the film's provenance it is directly due to the Prayer Man people willfully avoiding any investigation of that information...I direct people to The Education Forum thread for a good example of organized dishonesty and evasion of evidence under the color of academic discussion...As if a clear image of Sarah Stanton's dress neckline on Prayer Man wasn't good enough...Oh, was I showing "anger and vitriol" there?...

    We are on the same side with respect to the Detail in the Darnell Film that the Sixth Floor does have. Where we part company is You are willing to cavalierly label that film as being a "1st generation film-to-film copy". We do Not even know with certainty that what the Sixth Floor does have came directly from Prof Jones. All of these are nothing more than "stories" that have been handed down over the course of time. What I refer to as "JFK Assassination Urban Legends".
    Don't bet your house and lot on what you heard outta Gary Mack. An extremely nice guy, but he did suddenly become a member of the Sixth Floor Soup Line/$$.
    And again, "NBC 5" is Not "NBC". This is like referring to a Congressional Aide as a Congressman. Only 1 of the 2 stands on the important side of the pay window.
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The JFK Assassination - Discussion & Debate / Re: The First Shot
« Last post by Zeon Mason on Yesterday at 09:37:32 PM »
I think if JFK had been hit at Z190, that at least ONE of those SS agents should have seen JFK move at least a little bit and the SS agents would probably have reacted by Z207. So the Z190 1st shot theory is improbable. There would be some indication in the Z -film at Z190-Z207 that JFK is reacting to a bullet passing thru his back and his throat. The only possibility is a 1.5 sec delayed reaction. Unfortunately that idea seems to have been refuted by a source posted by Dan O. indicating the involuntary nervous system reaction of the human body to being struck by a bullet is less than 0.5 sec. IDK if this is a universal phenomenon that applies in all cases of humans who have been struck by a bullet. However, when added with shooting thru foliage and lack of reaction by SS agents , the Z190 1st shot theory seems improbable. Probably only  Hawaii 5-0 Steve McGarret 
could rescue this theory and it probably would involve finding out if that Chinese Commie Wo Fat used some kind of different bullet.  :D

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