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11
A bit circular.  I thought you were arguing that the bullet was yawing because of what the doctors saw, not what they may have gathered from talking to others.   In any event, the concept that the torso was "nearly parallel with the flight of the bullet" must be based on the direction of the bullet not its orientation when it entered.

Either a tangential entry or a yawing bullet could produce an elongated entry wound. Since the medical team AT THE TIME would have had no reason to believe the bullet and struck someone or something before entering JBC's back, it is understandable why they would conclude the bullet made a tangential entry wound into JBC's back. That would indicate the bullet was traveling almost parallel to his back. The problem with that is a bullet entering at that angle would have continued on and exited from the left side of his torso. The other possibility would be if the bullet made a tangential entry going in the opposite direction which would require the shot to have been fired from the south side of Elm St. In any case, the ER doctors were simply wrong in concluding that the elongated wound was caused by a tangential strike. It was caused by a yawing bullet. No other explanation fits the available evidence.
12
Tommy, have you forgotten that, according to the 1930 census, a future CIA officer, Talbot Bielefeldt, reporting to Bruce Solie, was residing in NYC with Ruth's  parents.  We'll let Bruce Solie explain it, in his own words.
https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=162099#relPageId=1

I became aware of this memo several years ago.

Question: does this prove that Russophile Ruthie was an agent of the evil, evil CIA?
13
Dear Fancy Pants Rants (FPR),

The thesis of Epstein's 1978 book, Legend: The Secret World of Lee Harvey Oswald, is that Marine U-2 radar operator Oswald may have been recruited by the KGB or the GRU in Japan in 1957 or 1958, and that KGB Major I mean Lt. Col. I mean Captain Yuri Nosenko was sent to the U.S. in February 1964 to obscure Oswald’s Soviet intelligence links -- links which J. Edgar Hoover, in the interest of self-preservation, smothered institutionally.
-snip-
......
PS The "mole" that Nosenko was protecting in June 1962 was probably James Angleton's confidant, mentor, and mole-hunting superior, Bruce Leonard Solie.

It sure would be nice if our resident (or should I say rezident?) genealogist and Wayback Machine social-pages-reader, Tom "A Beautiful Mind" Scully, would look into Solie and tell us about the man with the Russian-sounding name that was living with the Solies on their dairy farm when Bruce was an impressionable lad.

Tommy, have you forgotten that, according to the 1930 census, a future CIA officer, Talbot Bielefeldt, reporting to Bruce Solie, was residing in NYC with Ruth's  parents.  We'll let Bruce Solie explain it, in his own words.
https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=162099#relPageId=1
And....
https://www.archives.gov/files/research/jfk/releases/2022/104-10051-10096.pdf

Bill Simpich mistakenly describer Talbot as Taylor
Quote
https://aarclibrary.org/2018/01/27/the-jfk-case-the-twelve-who-built-the-oswald-legend-part-12-the-endgame/
By Bill Simpich [Originally published 12/31/2014]

....THE PAINES’ FAMILY AND FRIENDS WERE PROMINENT INTELLIGENCE FIGURES
Based on information from the CIA’s molehunting unit CI/SIG, the FBI wrote a telling report on William Hyde: “On December 4, 1963, CIA made available information to the Bureau Liaison that in 1957 CIA considered using this individual to operate a cooperative educational center in Vietnam but he was not used by the CIA. Investigation by CIA at that time concerning William Avery Hyde was favorable.”

Ruth Paine commented: “The information about the CIA considering my father for Vietnam was a surprise. I doubt if he would have accepted such an invitation, if it was offered. He certainly didn’t go. He went to Peru. He was working with the Agency for International Development. He helped to develop rural credit unions for the compasinos so that they could save enough money to make loans to themselves, instead of always paying the huge bank rates. He loved it. I know that USAID asked my father to appraise a situation in Georgetown, Guiana. He recommended against starting a project there, as he thought the local officials corrupt.”

Bill Hyde was also a strong anti-communist. Dr. Richard Jenkins of the Psychiatric Evaluation Board in Washington DC went to Stanford with the Hydes, and said that “Bill Hyde had been active in the cooperative movement and therefore was aware of the attempts of the Communists to infililtrate the cooperative movement.”

Like Hyde, the Hoke family was also involved in looking for communists. There is a 1955 memo to the CIA’s Office of Security, discussing how William Avery Hyde was back in his hometown of Palo Alto visiting the Hokes.
Quote
Brought into the circle was Dr. Jenkins and also Taylor Bielefeldt,

Bielefeldt was the CIA chief of the USSR Division of the Foreign Documents Division, who had spent a lot of time with Ruth’s parents William and Carol Hyde in the 1920s and 1930s. Bielefeldt’s division worked with the Joint Publications Research Service, a CIA unit that monitored public documents to study scientific and technical developments in the Soviet bloc.

Several people close to Oswald were also active in the Joint Publications Research Service. These people include legend maker #3 Priscilla Johnson, the NANA reporter in Moscow who befriended the Oswald family; legend maker #4 Richard Snyder, the American consul in Moscow; and the allegedly unwitting Spas Raikin, who greeted the Oswald family when they arrived in New York City from the USSR in 1962.

The 1955 memo mentions that Hoke, Bielefeldt and the aforementioned Dr. Richard Jenkins were all Stanford graduates. Hoke has been described as “a very brilliant person who is not very stable but who is very creative.”

The focus of the 1955 meeting was about Paul and Violet Orr. Both were Communist Party members in the San Francisco Bay Area. Paul had just been harshly interrogated by HUAC earlier that year. Violet had worked in the 1930s in the CP-friendly American League Against War and Fascism, just as Harvey’s informant Elizabeth Bentley had done. In more recent years, Violet had been part of the visible Communist Party leadership.

Two days after the memo, a wiretap revealed that former CP member Dorothy Wilson allegedly claimed that Ruth Paine’s mother Carol Hyde – the aforementioned Unitarian minister – admitted to being a communist. Another neighbor later reported hearing this rumor.

Ruth’s sister Sylvia admitted a year later that Dorothy Wilson worked at the publishing company run by her mother-in-law Helen Hoke Watts, and that Wilson had edited a book jointly written by her husband John Hoke and Mrs. Watts. Sylvia denied that her mother Carol Hyde was a communist, saying that her mother was suffering from a mental disorder.

At the time, Sylvia was supposedly working as a personnel research technician for the Air Force. However, a February 1957 memo revealed that Sylvia had been working in a semi-secret position for Naval Intelligence, and had lost her shot at a top secret position because of the Dorothy Wilson-Helen Hoke Watts relationship.

Ruth Paine made a point of telling FBI agent Jim Hosty in the weeks before the assassination that Oswald was a “Trotskyite communist“. Although Oswald subscribed to both the Trotskyist newspaper and the Communist Party newspaper, he maintained that he was not a follower of either ideological persuasion.

It is reasonable to judge Ruth Paine by her family ties. Like legend maker #3 Priscilla Johnson and legend maker #9 George de Mohrenschildt, Ruth’s family may have triggered too many security disapprovals for her to be put directly on the CIA payroll as an informant. Nonetheless, she had substantial ties to men such as Frederick Merrill and Fred Osborn at the State Department, and friends in common with Allen Dulles and Cord Meyer at the CIA...

(H. Jim Rand, employer of Robert E Webster, very, very likely knew Frederick Merrill because Rand's father made Merrill's father president of Remington Rand.
See: https://content.time.com/time/subscriber/article/0,33009,752940,00.html )

....Whether or not editor Johnny King had his story right, Michael Paine is somehow caught up in this web of deception.

The aforementioned anomalies of the Oswald story were ignored by the Warren Commission. Instead, the month of September 1964 was used to ensure that these stories and others like it were smoothed over prior to publication. The man who had ordered this review of these stories, J. Lee Rankin, had a shot at being a hero. Rankin didn’t take it.

In the years before his death, Rankin encouraged researchers in the JFK case to keep digging. Rankin asked one researcher, “Are you looking into the plots on the basis of whether they were covered up by the CIA because some of the very people involved in them could have been involved in the President’s assassination?” When told that was an area of investigation, Rankin replied, “Good. Good. You have to look at it that way.”....

Quote
https://www.kennedysandking.com/john-f-kennedy-articles/358
....
He repeatedly expressed the view that both the FBI and CIA had concealed important material from the Commission, and that the CIA/Mafia plots would have had a "very direct bearing on the areas of conspiracy which we tried to pursue." He also asked, "Are you looking into the plots on the basis of whether they were covered up by the CIA because some of the very people involved in them could have been involved in the President's assassination?" I said that yes that was an area of our investigation, and he replied strongly, "Good. Good. You have to look at it that way." I also said that we were looking into charges that Castro might have retaliated for the plots by killing Kennedy, and he replied, "Where is any evidence of that? I think the other approach would be much more logical." This was apparently in reference to probing those involved in the plots themselves....
14
AM--

Thanks for posting that 1/28/64 memo from Forrest Sorrels.

The memo, citing expert surgeons, indicates Gov. JBC's torso was turned to his right, that is facing towards the Zapruder side of the street, when he was struck from behind the limo, by a slug that left a small round hole in the back of his assassination-day shirt (no yawing or tumbling indicated).

In fact, Gov. JBC is turned to his right, and his face is facing towards Zapruder, at ~Z-295.

Thereafter ~Z-295, JBC grimaces and his mouth gapes as if he is in serious agony, and he is pushed forwards, and then falls into his wife's lap, about the time JFK is hot. That all lines up with testimony by the Connallys.

IMHO, the 1/28/64 Sorrels memo affirms my take on the Z-film.

But hey, each to his own.

Caveat emptor, and draw your conclusions.

15
The JFK Assassination - Discussion & Debate / Re: The First Shot
« Last post by Andrew Mason on Today at 04:54:01 AM »
I think if JFK had been hit at Z190, that at least ONE of those SS agents should have seen JFK move at least a little bit and the SS agents would probably have reacted by Z207. So the Z190 1st shot theory is improbable.
First of all, we can’t see the agents very well because they are all in the doubly exposed sprocket area. We can’t really make out McIntyre behind Clint Hill until a full second after z190. George Hickey in the rear left seat is crouched down and looking left at z193 and is up higher and looking forward right by z207.

Jack Ready on the front right is holding onto the front handhold with his right hand until z198 and by z207 the right hand is down by his side and his body has turned right. He said he turned right immediately after the first shot. That change is well underway within about one second of z190 and could be part of a reaction to the first shot.

And let’s not forget the sudden right head turn of Rosemary Willis from z202-206….
16
LEGEND - Edward Jay Epstein

Epstein's work is approximately 180 degrees removed from the currently prevailing Deep Politics theories, which is why he is dismissed as either a CIA dupe or disinformation agent.

Dear Fancy Pants Rants (FPR),

The thesis of Epstein's 1978 book, Legend: The Secret World of Lee Harvey Oswald, is that Marine U-2 radar operator Oswald may have been recruited by the KGB or the GRU in Japan in 1957 or 1958, and that KGB Major I mean Lt. Col. I mean Captain Yuri Nosenko was sent to the U.S. in February 1964 to obscure Oswald’s Soviet intelligence links -- links which J. Edgar Hoover, in the interest of self-preservation, smothered institutionally.

In Legend, Edward J. Epstein correctly "outed" Yuri Nosenko as not-a-true physical defector to the U.S. in February 1964 and disclosed that the FBI's beloved FEDORA (KGB Major Aleksey Kulak) was a Kremlin-loyal triple agent who had duped the Bureau for fifteen years.

Factoid: In 1976, FBI Senior Agent James Nolan conducted an investigation that determined that Kulak / FEDORA was fake. A few years later, counterintelligence-hating Senior Agent James Geer, with help from two CIA researchers, Sandra Grimes and Cynthia Hausmann, provided to him by a Nosenko-protecting probable mole by the name of Leonard V. McCoy, reverted Nolan's appraisal to the original mistaken one.

I say Nosenko was a "not-a-true defector" in 1964 because, although he was a false defector-in-place in Geneva in June 1962, sent there to protect at least one high-level KGB mole in the CIA, in February 1964 he was either a false defector or had "gone rogue" -- and used his putative "intel" on Oswald as his "ticket" to The Land of Milk and Honey.

Although Epstein's main source on Nosenko was Nosenko's former principal CIA case officer until October 1967, Tennent H. Bagley (who was on the fast track to become Director of CIA until Nosenko reappeared in Geneva in January 1964), Epstein seems to have been either a really poor listener or an embellisher par excellence.

To wit: He states Nosenko's self-described career history in the KGB as though it's factual, forgetting to mention that Bagley learned that very little of it, if any, was true.

-- Tom

PS The "mole" that Nosenko was protecting in June 1962 was probably James Angleton's confidant, mentor, and mole-hunting superior, Bruce Leonard Solie.

It sure would be nice if our resident (or should I say rezident?) genealogist and Wayback Machine social-pages-reader, Tom "A Beautiful Mind" Scully, would look into Solie and tell us about the man with the Russian-sounding name that was living with the Solies on their dairy farm when Bruce was an impressionable lad.
17
MTG--

Yes, the COVID-19 tale confirms that government, even two governments (Beijing and Washington), and multiple agencies and actors can and did participate in a cover-up, and induced the mass and social media to not only participate in the cover-up, but to ridicule and even ban those who had alternative narratives.

Remember, some social media platforms banned commentary that a lab leak was responsible for the COVID-9 pandemic.

AI: Facebook and Instagram: In early 2020, Facebook explicitly classified "COVID-19 is man-made or manufactured" as a false claim to be removed. On May 26, 2021, Facebook ended this ban after consulting with public health experts.

Twitter (now X): Twitter also implemented COVID-19 misinformation policies early on, which initially restricted certain origin theories. Twitter later quietly lifted its COVID-19 misinformation enforcement in late 2022.

Other Platforms: Similar moderation strategies were used across networks like YouTube and TikTok, relying heavily on the World Health Organization consensus at the time.


---30---

The above is an ugly record of what can happen to the truth.

Although I believe the initial JFKAC was very limited, I believe there was a subsequent government cover-up, following President LBJ's diktat that LHO be found an LN. 

Not all CTs are alike. Some hold water.

Not all government narratives are truthful. Some are not.

18

Here is an interview with Chauncey Holt on YouTube...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3z5MgCG4COY

19
Your frequent message formatting errors, grammatical errors, and punctuation errors suggest you're in no position to be deciding who is a scholar and who is not, much less to be making sweeping pronouncements about JFKA evidence and research.

As for your comment about motive, ask any prosecutor and they'll tell you that in a complex or strongly contested case, establishing motive is very important for the prosecution--both in identifying a suspect in the first place and in persuading a jury of guilt in a trial.

Ask any detective about motive, and they'll tell you that one of the main things they seek to establish is whether the suspect had a motive.  If they've identified two possible suspects and one suspect had no motive and the other suspect did have a motive, they will see the latter person as the more likely suspect, all other things being relatively equal.

I had to giggle when I read your first sentence (which you failed to punctuate correctly, but anyway. . . .):

LOL! Yeah, gee, why should they be objective?! Humm, maybe because being objective is a key principle of critical thinking? Maybe because being objective is a hallmark of credibility, education, and an open mind?

Perhaps you should change your forum name to John "I Don't Need No Stinkin' Objectivity" Corbett.

Huh, in reading the description of the book on Amazon, I find myself thinking I might just read it. It sounds like an interesting book, assuming he did in fact write it. I heard years ago that he'd written a book but never gave it a second thought.


Check it out... again, it has a ring of truth to it... Also, you might be able to pick up a video of Holt being interviewed...

20
In a number of threads, people have brought up the fact that people in the motorcade smelled gunpowder as they were going past the GK. To that my reaction has always been SO WHAT. I think we can safely say no one fired a weapon on Elm St. so the people who got a whiff of gunpowder residue when they were on Elm St. give us no clue as to where that residue was discharged.

I've corrected you on this stuff before, but I see you're repeating it again.

Recap: One, the witnesses who smelled gunpowder said they smelled it on the grassy or near the knoll. Two, they indicated they smelled it very soon after the shooting, within less than about 1 minute after the shooting, judging from their accounts. Three, several witnesses also said they saw gun smoke coming from an area of the picket fence on the knoll. Four, a small cloud of apparent gun smoke can be seen in the Wiegman film hanging over a point on the grassy knoll. 

I thought of this following the recent assassination attempt on President Trump and some of the people smelled the gunpowder in the ballroom even though the assailant never discharged his weapon there. The residue that people smell can drift quite a distance from it's origin. This gives us no indication where that residue was discharged from.

You're talking about a case where the gunman fired inside a building with an air circulation system and fired only about 10-15 feet away from the ballroom entrance. It's not a bit surprising that some people in the ballroom could smell gunpowder, and, more important, the gunpowder did not "drift quite a distance" from its origin.

So any suggestion that the Trump assassination attempt implies that the gunpowder that Dealey Plaza witnesses smelled near/on the grassy knoll came from 60 feet up and 200-plus feet away is baseless.

". . . from it's origin"? You mean "from its origin." The possessive form of "it" is "its," not "it's." "It's" is a contraction of "It is." Sheesh, this is junior-high-level English.

I usually do not call attention to someone's apparent lack of education, but I'm making an exception in your case because of the arrogant and dismissive polemic that you use while making erroneous claims that prove you don't know what you're talking about.

You have no business starting threads unless they're only asking sincere questions.
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