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11
BD-

Yes, and I am still banned from the EF-JFKA too, evidently for posting comments that Sirhan Sirhan fired live rounds at RFK and was not hypnotized.

My conversation style is always collegial.

That said, Iler may be mollifying the Old Guard while moving the EF-JFKA to a better place.

The sad EF-JFKA current events posts, which devolved into Trump TDS juvenalia, anti-Semitic crackpot-ism and endless partisan blue-red pissing wars, are being moved to backwater locations, so the EF-JFKA can more focus on the JFKA.

If I ever am re-instated, I will petition Iler on your behalf.

No forum is perfect (though this forum is really good). No one needs the EF-JFKA.

In fact, the EF-JFKA badly needs readers and a broader audience. They are talking to themselves at present, and have alienated many over the last year.

I hope Iler can bring the EF-JFKA to a better place.

 
12
Adams' version of events is supported by the Tom Dillard pic, the Stroud document, the fact she never encountered Truly and Baker (and vice versa) and Baker's observation of two white men hanging around the area Adams said Shelley and Lovelady were and at the same time, roughly 60 seconds after the shooting.
She is a totally credible witness of impeccable character.

Just for argument's sake though...
Let's say you do have some intelligence and can manage this rudimentary thought experiment, you must agree that the only way for Shelley and Lovelady to reach the area near the freight elevators within 60 seconds is to enter the building through the front entrance moments after the shooting.
You must agree, as part of the thought experiment of course, that taking Adams' testimony at face value would disprove your identification of Shelley and Lovelady in Darnell.

Just for the sake of argument, let's say I have vastly more intelligence than you and see where that goes  :D :D :D ...

Sure, I can agree to anything in the context of a thought experiment. If Shelley and Lovelady were on the TSBD steps when the shooting occurred and at the freight elevators seconds later, logic would dictate that they were teleported by aliens - no, strike that, that they walked back there through the front entrance.

The value of a thought experiment hinges to a large extent on its plausibility. Otherwise, of what use is it? This was the problem with your LBJ-Byrd-Cason-Shelley-Dougherty thought experiment. When you acknowledged that it couldn't account for Oswald, I think most folks sensed the thought air going out of your thought balloon. Poof.

I will admit I haven't read The Girl On the Stairs. However, is it correct that Vicki herself in that book disavows saying she saw Shelley and Lovelady and claiming that the relevant portion of her WC testimony doesn't even sound like her, as Roger Odisio states in this thread at the Ed Forum? https://educationforum.ipbhost.com/topic/30023-vickie-adams-interview/. If that weren't sufficient, the thread opens by linking to a 1966 interview in which Vicki apparently claimed that she did see Shelley! Is Vicki's credibility hanging by a thread, or is that my imagination?

The plausibiity of your thought experiment also hinges on (1) Styles, who was there, either being flat wrong or lying for no apparent reason, and (2) the photo that clearly shows Shelley and Lovelady walking down the Elm Street extension not being Shelley and Lovelady, with fellow gung-ho CTer Bart Kamp having faked said photo for no apparent reason. All of this to prop up some elaborate conspiracy scenario that apparently requires two TSBD clucks like Shelley and Lovelady as well as the WC staff to be at least after-the-fact participants.

Pretty thin thought experiment gruel, it seems to me. Occam and I continue to prefer our version whereby Vicki actually does see Shelley and Lovelady a wee bit later than she recalled, which has the beauty of still allowing CTers to argue that the two cuties were teleported from the fourth floor by aliens and should have heard or encountered Oswald if he'd been coming down the stairs.
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JFK Assassination Discussion & Debate / Re: The First Shot
« Last post by Tom Graves on Today at 02:26:18 AM »
[...]

Dear danny BOY o'meara,

All you're any good at is insulting people who disagree with your tinfoil-hat conspiracy theory.

What a joke you are.

-- Tom
14
I find it comical that you would think two bullets that struck different body parts in different ways should end up sustaining similar damage. A car that slides sideways into a guard rail is going to look quite a bit different than one the smashes head on into a tree.

This is monkey-brain illogic and silliness. Good grief. CE 399 supposedly shattered the right distal radius bone, one of the strongest bones in the body, after supposedly smashing at least 4 inches of rib bone while traveling faster than the speed of sound in both cases. And you comically, childishly compare this to a car sliding sideways into a single obstacle, a guard rail no less. A retarded teenager wouldn't float such an absurd, bogus analogy.

The other half of your analogy is just as bad and silly. A tree is many, many times stronger than skull bone, and no car is constructed even remotely similarly to an FMJ bullet, nor is any car going to hit a tree while traveling faster than the speed of sound.

You simply refuse to face the fact that in every single SBT wound ballistics test ever done, even tests that were rigged as much as possible in the SBT's favor, the test bullets either were unable to do the required damage or emerged with much more deformity than CE 399.

You also simply refuse to face the fact that bullets that were merely fired into cotton wadding emerged with the same damage as CE 399 or with more damage than CE 399, and that even bullets that merely transited 12 inches of ballistics gelatin, without hitting rib bone in the process, either failed to leave the wrist bone with enough energy to penetrate the simulated thigh or failed to leave the wrist bone at all.

You keep falsely assuming that the bullet that hit Connally's back was tumbling when it struck, even though you know this is false from the modest width of the back wound and from the narrow wound path through Connally's chest. You won't admit any fact that refutes you theory.

The fact that Connally's entry wound was only 1.5 cm wide indicates the bullet hit at a slightly horizontal angle. If the bullet had been markedly yawing, the entry wound would have been much larger, which is why all of your fellow SBT believers who claim the bullet hit while markedly yawing misleadingly cite the post-surgery size of 3.0 cm for the wound. And if the bullet had been tumbling through Connally's chest, it most certainly would have created a much wider wound path than the narrow path that Dr. Shaw described.

In another reply you said, "The flattening on one side of the base is an indication the bullet struck a hard object, probably the wrist bone, while traveling sideways." Really? Well, if CE 399 supposedly hit the wrist bone while traveling sideways, how is it that the entry wound on the wrist was only 2 cm long? CE 399 is 3.04 cm long? Huh? 

MTG finds it incredulous that one bullet was shattered while one remained intact yet we have evidence that is exactly what happened. I wonder how he explains that.

You have zero evidence that "this is exactly what happened." You have no test evidence. You have no forensic evidence. You have no eyewitness evidence -- indeed, Connally himself adamantly insisted that he and JFK were hit by separate non-fatal bullets and that he was not hit before Z229. You have no photographic evidence -- indeed, the Zapruder film proves to anyone not legally blind or brainwashed that JFK was hit long before Connally was hit, and that Connally was not hit until Z234. You have nothing but ridiculous speculation that was cooked up by a WC lawyer in order to avoid having to admit there was more than one gunman, and that speculation was so specious that even three of the seven members of the WC rejected it.

You have spent several days now doing nothing but waffling, ducking, dodging, and lying around the fact that we know from long-established forensic science that FMJ bullets will never, ever, ever shatter into dozens of tiny fragments after penetrating skull bone, much less "shear off" small fragments into the outer table of the skull upon penetration. The WC's own head-shot wound ballistics test confirmed these facts, as we see from the released x-rays of the skulls from the test. The Failure Analysis head-shot wound ballistics test also confirmed this fact -- indeed, in the Failure Analysis test, not a single one of the FMJ bullets even fragmented after striking skull bone. 

You've also danced and ducked around the fact that every expert who has commented on the velocity of the bullet indicated by the skull damage has said the bullet was traveling at a high velocity. The Clark Panel said this. The Rockefeller Commission medical panel said this. The HSCA FPP's report assumed that the ammo fired at JFK was high-velocity ammo (e.g., 7 HSCA 175). Two of the HSCA FPP's radiology experts said high-velocity ammo was sued. Dr. Fillinger, Dr. Wecht, Dr. Robertson, among other outside experts, have said this. You can't cite a single expert who has said the massive skull damage was not done by high-velocity ammo, but the alleged murder weapon was not a high-velocity rifle.

For any newcomers to this thread, the core problem here is that the ammo that hit JFK's head shattered into dozens of tiny fragments while also depositing small fragments on the rear outer table of the skull, depositing two fragments just behind and above the right orbit at the other end of the skull, and depositing one lone fragment on the left side of the skull, as seen in the JFK autopsy skull x-rays. The skull x-rays show a large cluster of 30-40 tiny fragments, often described as a "lead snowstorm," in the right-frontal region.

However, we know from forensic science that FMJ bullets will never, ever behave like this, that they will never fragment like this. I will once again quote world-renowned forensic pathologist Dr. Vincent DiMaio, who pointed out that if an x-ray shows numerous tiny fragments, this rules out FMJ ammo; and that on the "rare" occasions when FMJ bullets do fragment when striking skull bone, they will only leave a "few" fragments:

An x-ray of an individual shot with a full metal-jacketed rifle bullet . . . usually fails to reveal any bullet fragments at all even if the bullet has perforated bone such as the skull or spine. If any fragments are seen, they are very sparse in number. . . .(Gunshot Wounds, p. 166)

In x-rays of through-and-through gunshot wounds, the presence of small fragments of metal along the wound track virtually rules out full metal-jacketed ammunition.. . . In rare instances involving full metal-jacketed centerfire rifle bullets, a few small, dust-like fragments of lead may be seen on x-ray if the bullet perforates bone. One of the most characteristic x-rays and one that will indicate the type of weapon and ammunition used is that seen from centerfire rifles firing hunting ammunition. In such a case, one will see a 'lead snowstorm'. . . . Such a picture rules out full metal-jacketed rifle ammunition or a shotgun slug. (Gunshot Wounds, p. 318)
15
Is JFK coughing up blood?
Is there blood on JFK's hands?
16
While one is always entitled to engage in thought experiments, a thought experiment taking Vicki Adams' story at face value seems a stretch to me in light of the fact that Sandra Styles, her companion, always said she thought Vicki's time estimate was at least somewhat off and, more importantly, was adamant that Shelley and Lovelady were not there. Occam (or Ockham, if you prefer) tells me a more plausible thought experiment has Vicki conflating her and Styles' trip down the stairs with a slightly later encounter by her with Shelley and Lovelady when they reentered the TSBD. But, hey, that's just my and Occam's little thought experiment.

Bart Kamp summarizes what Styles repeatedly told Barry Ernest here: http://www.prayer-man.com/tsbd/sandra-styles/. Sean Murphy also followed up with her after Ernest's book came out. I also found a long discussion at Greg Parker's forum where the sentiment seemed to be that the "Shelley and Lovelady" question and answer had been fiendishly inserted into Vicki's actual WC testimony precisely to make it seem that she and Styles must have left the fourth floor window later than she thiought. Greg seemed to find this unlikely, and my thought experiment doesn't require any such shenanigans by the WC; in mine, the two cuties can have come down the stairs however quickly you like, with Vicki simply being a bit off as to when she saw Shelley and Lovelady.

(Lots of Sandra Styles' stuff for sale on eBay. Don't miss your chance: https://www.ebay.com/itm/175838680679. I may have got burnt on $1200 worth of Bogus Imposter Haygood autographs, but this Styles stuff is the real deal.)

Adams' version of events is supported by the Tom Dillard pic, the Stroud document, the fact she never encountered Truly and Baker (and vice versa) and Baker's observation of two white men hanging around the area Adams said Shelley and Lovelady were and at the same time, roughly 60 seconds after the shooting.
She is a totally credible witness of impeccable character.

Just for argument's sake though...
Let's say you do have some intelligence and can manage this rudimentary thought experiment, you must agree that the only way for Shelley and Lovelady to reach the area near the freight elevators within 60 seconds is to enter the building through the front entrance moments after the shooting.
You must agree, as part of the thought experiment of course, that taking Adams' testimony at face value would disprove your identification of Shelley and Lovelady in Darnell.
17
The TSBD photo evidence only showed 2 spent bullet shell casings (used) and 1 live round (unused).
18
While one is always entitled to engage in thought experiments, a thought experiment taking Vicki Adams' story at face value seems a stretch to me in light of the fact that Sandra Styles, her companion, always said she thought Vicki's time estimate was at least somewhat off and, more importantly, was adamant that Shelley and Lovelady were not there. Occam (or Ockham, if you prefer) tells me a more plausible thought experiment has Vicki conflating her and Styles' trip down the stairs with a slightly later encounter by her with Shelley and Lovelady when they reentered the TSBD. But, hey, that's just my and Occam's little thought experiment.

Bart Kamp summarizes what Styles repeatedly told Barry Ernest here: http://www.prayer-man.com/tsbd/sandra-styles/. Sean Murphy also followed up with her after Ernest's book came out. I also found a long discussion at Greg Parker's forum where the sentiment seemed to be that the "Shelley and Lovelady" question and answer had been fiendishly inserted into Vicki's actual WC testimony precisely to make it seem that she and Styles must have left the fourth floor window later than she thiought. Greg seemed to find this unlikely, and my thought experiment doesn't require any such shenanigans by the WC; in mine, the two cuties can have come down the stairs however quickly you like, with Vicki simply being a bit off as to when she saw Shelley and Lovelady.

(Lots of Sandra Styles' stuff for sale on eBay. Don't miss your chance: https://www.ebay.com/itm/175838680679. I may have got burnt on $1200 worth of Bogus Imposter Haygood autographs, but this Styles stuff is the real deal.)
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JFK Assassination Discussion & Debate / Re: The First Shot
« Last post by Dan O'meara on Today at 12:44:11 AM »
Oswald's first, missing-everything, shot was at "Z-124," half-a-second before Zapruder resumed filming at Z-133, as evidenced by the fact that:

1) Glenn Bennett (who said he saw a bullet strike JFK in the back after he heard a "firecracker-like" sound) started leaning far to his right around Z-150 to see around Dave Powers.

2) George Hickey started leaning over the side of the car and looking down at the pavement in Z-146.

3) Rosemary Willis glanced at the TSBD while she was running and looked in that direction after she stopped running.

4)  All five passengers of the limo quickly turned their heads (in different directions) between Z-140 and Z-150.

5) Mary Woodward said there were three shots, that the first shot sounded like a backfire, that JFK and Jackie turned their heads in response to it, and that the first shot missed everything. (JFK turned his head quickly to his left starting in Z-143; Jackie extended and accelerated her already left head turn to be captured in the Z-161 Robert Croft photo with a concerned look on her face.)

6) Etc. Etc. Etc.

Poor lil tommy and his debunked little theory.
Let's have a look at some of the tripe you post:

1) Glenn Bennett (who said he saw a bullet strike JFK in the back after he heard a "firecracker-like" sound) started leaning far to his right around Z-150 to see around Dave Powers.

This is total  BS: from start to finish.
That you believe you can tell he was trying to "see around Dave Powers" tells us all we need to know about how you like to add a little story to your nonsense interpretations of the Z-film.

2) George Hickey started leaning over the side of the car and looking down at the pavement in Z-146

Hickey definitively states that his response to the first shot was to look to his right and rear.
You know this.
It's another example of the brazen lies you are willing to perpetuate in order to cling on to your debunked theory.

3) Rosemary Willis glanced at the TSBD while she was running and looked in that direction after she stopped running.

ROSEMARY WILLIS??
 :D :D :D

4)  All five passengers of the limo quickly turned their heads (in different directions) between Z-140 and Z-150.e
Yet another of your desperate lies.
Aren't you aware we can all see the Z-film?

5) Mary Woodward said there were three shots, that the first shot sounded like a backfire, that JFK and Jackie turned their heads in response to it, and that the first shot missed everything. (JFK turned his head quickly to his left starting in Z-143; Jackie extended and accelerated her already left head turn to be captured in the Z-161 Robert Croft photo with a concerned look on her face.)


Woodward said that she and her friends called out to attract the attention of JFK and Jackie as they passed by.
She says that both Jackie and JFK turned and waved. We see all four occupants of the limo turning their heads towards Woodward and her friends.
JFK waves and smiles. We see him do this in the Z-film just before the limo passes behind the Stemmons sign.
Woodward is unequivocal that the first shot happened just after this.
Woodward completely disproves your silly notion of such an early shot.

Time for you to hide away for a while  Thumb1:
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Good presentation, but not quite up there with the legend Michael Brownlow yet. Need to jazz things up. Need more pazazz  :D

Yes, I need to tell a few porky pies and when challenged on them, simply claim I saw proof in the Dallas Police city records.
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