JFK Assassination Forum

MW: No, he did not say that at all. He said (I'm paraphrasing) that he initialed the S & W revolver before it was turned over the Lt Baker and he did the same with Oswald's identification, before he went to Westbrook's office to write his report.
Gerald Hill tells us in his report this happend at approx 3:15 PM.

This is what Hill had to say in his report to Curry about the handover of the pistol at 3:15 PM:

"I retained this gun in my posesssion until approximately 3:15 pm Friday, November 22, 1963, when in the presence of  Officers Carroll and McDonald, I turned this weapon over to Detective T. L. Baker of the Homicide and Robbery Bureau.

"At the time the pistol was released to Detective Baker, McDonald, Carroll, and I had all marked it for identification purposes, and in the presence of McDonald and Carroll, I marked the side of the casing on all the shells, which were also turned over to Detective Baker at the same time"

Notice who isn't mentioned here? Yes, Bentley! ...And also Lyons, the other arresting officer who wound up being sent to the hospital for a ankle injury incurred during the arrest. Hill's report actually implies that Bentley and Lyons had already left for the hospital (presumably Parkland, though Baylor would have been closest)  when Hill, et al, turned over the revolver to Baker at 3:15.

Notice who isn't mentioned here? Yes, Bentley!

True, but Bentley said it himself in his report to Chief Curry.

Hill's report actually implies that Bentley and Lyons had already left for the hospital

No, Hill's report doesn't imply anything of the kind. When you feel the need to make stuff up, you've already lost the argument!

This is what happens when you cherry pick the evidence you like and ignore the rest.

Btw, you still haven't provided an answer about Guy Rose and C.T. Walker.... Why is that? 

So, finally.

Let's look at this statement from Bentley's report:

Sgt. Jerry Hill had the S&W 38 cal pistol with six (6) shells in his possession on the way to the City Hall. This pistol was initialed by me and turned over to Lt. Baker and Captain Fritz by Sgt. Hill. I turned his identification over to Lt. Baker. I then went to Westbrook's Office to make a report of the arrest.

There's nothing at all about anything happening at 3:35PM nor at 4:00PM.

Bentley says that he left the Homicide Bureau and went to Westbrook's office --that is, the Personnel division-- to write reports. Hill and Carrol also talk about this. The migration of the arresting party happened in the 2-o'clock hour, so the turnover of the wallet in the Homicide department had to have occurred long before you want to believe.

There's nothing at all about anything happening at 3:35PM nor at 4:00PM.

That's exactly what I figured you would say. It isn't written verbatim in Bentley's statement, so let's just ignore the combined statements of Hill and Bentley and just claim nothing happened at 3:35 PM or later.

Bentley says that he left the Homicide Bureau and went to Westbrook's office --that is, the Personnel division-- to write reports. Hill and Carrol also talk about this. The migration of the arresting party happened in the 2-o'clock hour, so the turnover of the wallet in the Homicide department had to have occurred long before you want to believe.

So now you want to consider the combined statements of the officers? Not only is it dishonest, it's also a massive misrepresentation. And of course not to mention that there is no record of a wallet being handed over to Lt Baker at 2:00 PM.
All you are doing is presenting a self-serving conclusion based on hot air that doesn't even answer my two basic questions.

Bentley says that he left the Homicide Bureau and went to Westbrook's office --that is, the Personnel division-- to write reports.

No, he did not say that at all. He said (I'm paraphrasing) that he initialed the S & W revolver before it was turned over the Lt Baker and he did the same with Oswald's identification, before he went to Westbrook's office to write his report.
Gerald Hill tells us in his report this happend at approx 3:15 PM.

The sequence of events is a simple one; Carroll, Hill, Walker and Bentley bring Oswald to the Homicide bureau, where they leave him with uniformed officers. They then went to the personnel office (where a number of officers had gathered) where the revolver was initialed and handed over to Lt Baker along with the wallet. Even if this had only taken 10 minutes after leaving Oswald at the Homicide Bureau, you still have a wallet problem, because Guy Rose arrived at the Homicide Bureau just after Oswald had been brought in and when he got there he was given a wallet in which he found the Hidell ID.

So, how does a wallet being held either by Bentley or Baker, find it's way in less than a minute or two to Guy Rose and why did Walker have the Hidell ID?

Again the same BS I've become accustomed to from you.

I'll give this one more try; Bentley, Carroll, Hill and Walker brought Oswald to the homicide bureau at City Hall and left him there with some uniformed officers. They went to the personnel office where some officers initialed the S & W revolver and a gray jacket. According to Hill, in his WC testimony, this happened at around 4:00 PM but in his report to Chief Curry of 3 December 1963 he gave the time as 3:15 PM.

Paul Bentley, wrote in his report to Chief Curry of 2 December 1963: "On the way to City Hall I removed the suspect's wallet and obtained his name. Not a word about finding a Hidell ID! He also wrote: Sgt. Jerry Hill had the S&W 38 cal pistol with six (6) shells in his possession on the way to the City Hall. This pistol was initialed by me and turned over to Lt. Baker and Captain Fritz by Sgt. Hill. I turned his identification over to Lt. Baker. I then went to Westbrook's Office to make a report of the arrest.

The information of Hill and Bentley combined justifies IMO the conclusion that the revolver and Oswald's identification were turned over to Lt. Baker at some time after 3:15 PM which matches with 3:25 PM time on the receipt of the evidence room, where the wallet, the revolver and several personal items of Oswald were submitted by traffic officer Bardin.

If you wish to argue that Bentley turned in the wallet/identification to Lt Baker earlier, you will not find any evidence for that. 

But even if Bentley did hand in the wallet/identification to Lt. Baker just after leaving Oswald with the uniformed officers at the Homicide Bureau it still does explain how C.T. Walker could claim that he had the Hidell identification and it most certainly doesn't explain how Detective Guy Rose was given a wallet in which he found the Hidell ID. Rose arrived at City Hall just after Oswald was brought in and when he got to the Homicide Bureau an unidentified person gave him a wallet and said it belonged to Oswald.

All I said was;

And so far no LN has come up with an answer and all I have gotten from you is denial.

So, finally.

Let's look at this statement from Bentley's report:

Sgt. Jerry Hill had the S&W 38 cal pistol with six (6) shells in his possession on the way to the City Hall. This pistol was initialed by me and turned over to Lt. Baker and Captain Fritz by Sgt. Hill. I turned his identification over to Lt. Baker. I then went to Westbrook's Office to make a report of the arrest.

There's nothing at all about anything happening at 3:35PM nor at 4:00PM.

Bentley says that he left the Homicide Bureau and went to Westbrook's office --that is, the Personnel division-- to write reports. Hill and Carrol also talk about this. The migration of the arresting party happened in the 2-o'clock hour, so the turnover of the wallet in the Homicide department had to have occurred long before you want to believe.
 

The first image comes from the HSCA analysis and they have the SBF happening at about Z190 but modern Scholars have the SBF occurring as Kennedy emerges from behind the Stemmons sign from Zapruder's POV.











JohnM

  ".....modern Scholars"? 

There is no evidence provided in the zfilm that is inconsistent with JBC not reacting to his chest wound before z255. His actions are quite consistent with the rest of the evidence, which is that there has only been one shot to that point.  We have Altgens who was there and took the picture and confirms that. The problem is not with the zfilm. The problem is that the zfilm alone cannot tell you where the second shot occurred.

It tells people with good eyesight and a functioning brain when the second shot was fired that hit both JFK and JBC.