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11
The JFK Assassination - Discussion & Debate / Re: JFK Hands Never Go To-Or Toward-His Throat
« Last post by Lance Payette on Today at 01:07:12 AM »
Quote from: John Corbett on Today at 12:49:59 AM
A rather silly question. It is what I've come to expect from people who seem desperate to find an explanation for the JFKA other than the right one.

You're so full of mirth, John. You must be tons of fun to be around. Of course, most people are touchy when it comes to their religion, so I'll try to be more serious and respectful in the future.  ::) (No you won't, Lance, and you damn well know it.)
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The JFK Assassination - Discussion & Debate / Re: JFK Hands Never Go To-Or Toward-His Throat
« Last post by Royell Storing on Today at 01:06:26 AM »
Quote from: David Von Pein on Today at 12:34:30 AM
Exactly! And Connally's necktie does a little dance too.






Lots more at these two links:

https://jfk-archives.blogspot.com/2013/02/sbt-clips.html

https://jfk-archives.blogspot.com/2015/01/jfk-assassination-arguments-part-887.html

    Gov Connally is beginning to turn around and face JFK. There is extremely little space between the Connally jump seat and the Limo door. Plus, in order to turn around and literally face JFK, Connally is forced to raise his (R) arm above his jump seat backrest. This is the RAISING that you are seeing. Connally is raising his upper body as he swings around to directly face JFK. That jump seat backrest is almost Never taken into consideration. Even the so called test shots do Not include a backrest. Just look at high def footage of JFK and Jackie being loaded into the JFK Limo at Love Field. The extremely cramped conditions inside that Limo are obvious. They even have to be extremely careful when closing the door next to Gov Connally. Banging Connally's legs when closing that Limo door was a concern at Love Field.   
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The JFK Assassination - Discussion & Debate / Re: Quoting Common Sense
« Last post by Lance Payette on Today at 01:02:59 AM »
Tom, having now dived into this I am perplexed at how little attention Adele receives. Everyone agrees that she had impeccable credentials, was absolutely lucid and credible, named names, and the information she gave that could be checked out did check out. The only alternatives are that (1) she was a complete and utter fraud from BEFORE THE JFKA (when she contacted the Secret Service) to her dying day or (2) she blows the LN narrative out of the water. There is really no in-between. And yet, she receives not much more attention than the Allright Parking Garage. What the heck, huh? Not only are there not 50 articles explaining all the ways she was a fraud (there really aren't any) but there doesn't seem to be any great enthusiasm within the CT community either.

FWIW, here are her 35 posts at the Ed Forum in the period 2004-2010. As always, she doesn't sound like a crackpot by any means.

https://educationforum.ipbhost.com/profile/631-adele-edisen/content/

The interesting part is, unlike JVB she really isn't central to her wild tale - she's not the "star." What is central is the stuff that Rivera dropped on her out of the blue months before the assassination - Oswald, Abt, the Trade Mart, the suicide of a close JFK friend (Stockdale). I can see why Michael B-C put a mystical spin on all this - it almost sounds like, rather than describing an assassination plot, Rivera was having a precognitive vision of the actual event.

What the heck, huh?
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The JFK Assassination - Discussion & Debate / Re: Shooting Strategy AI Dialogue
« Last post by John Corbett on Today at 12:57:39 AM »
Quote from: Charles Collins on Today at 12:26:46 AM


The evidence suggests that LHO did some substantial planning for the Walker attempt. Therefore I would fully expect that he had a pretty good estimate of the distance involved with the place that he planned to shoot from. LHO apparently paid extra money for the scope, so it seems to me that he planned to use it for the Walker attempt. With the above in mind, and Marina’s reports of LHO practicing with the rifle, I have to believe that he zeroed the scope for his estimated distance of the Walker attempt (~100’). And I would expect that the scope was still zeroed for that ~100’ distance on 11/22/63.

The iron sights are another story. They are fixed (non-adjustable) at 200-meters if I remember correctly. I will try to find out the exact distance that the iron sights are above the center of the bore and see if I can come up with a ballistics calculation of how far off they would have been at the various distances of the Walker attempt and the distances involved in Dealey Plaza.

The fact that his shot struck the very bottom of the open window sash indicates to me his shot was high of his intended line of fire. Rather than the shot going through the open window, it hit the bottom of the sash. Just an educated guess but I doubt he used the scope for the Walker shooting. The iron sights were fixed and zeroed for 200 meters so at close range, the rifle would aim high. Oswald should have known that but he might have just forgot to make the adjustment.
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The JFK Assassination - Discussion & Debate / Re: JFK Hands Never Go To-Or Toward-His Throat
« Last post by John Corbett on Today at 12:49:59 AM »
Quote from: Lance Payette on Yesterday at 11:29:18 PM
Maybe he was just doing the Funky Chicken - ever think of that, huh, huh? It does seem to me that Jackie and Kellerman flinch at the same time, so I simply raise the question as to whether we can be sure that this is a reaction to being hit or possibly merely a reaction to a bullet whizzing past him. What we see JBC doing is pretty much exactly what he said he did, but for some reason he has been relegated to "the one person who had no idea what he was talking about."

A rather silly question. It is what I've come to expect from people who seem desperate to find an explanation for the JFKA other than the right one.
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The JFK Assassination - Discussion & Debate / Re: JFK Hands Never Go To-Or Toward-His Throat
« Last post by John Corbett on Today at 12:47:22 AM »
Quote from: Royell Storing on Yesterday at 11:01:23 PM
   "...DIRECTLY in line with a bullet exiting JFK's throat..."? Nobody knows the exact position of Connally relative to JFK when that shot struck JFK. They were behind the Stemmons sign. Stop trying to get by with just throwing  BS: against the wall.

The were hidden for approximately 1 second. It is absurd to think there was any significant movement from the line of fire during that 1 second. We see JFK reemerge at Z225 about 1/6 of a second after he was struck. I think we can figure out the alignment of the two men from that.
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The JFK Assassination - Discussion & Debate / Re: JFK Hands Never Go To-Or Toward-His Throat
« Last post by David Von Pein on Today at 12:34:30 AM »
Quote from: Steve Barber on Today at 12:02:47 AM
It's both [of Connally's] shoulders that raise, not one. They both rise simultaneously.

Exactly! And Connally's necktie does a little dance too:






Lots more at these two links:

https://jfk-archives.blogspot.com/2013/02/sbt-clips.html

https://Single-Bullet-Theory.blogspot.com
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The JFK Assassination - Discussion & Debate / Re: JFK Hands Never Go To-Or Toward-His Throat
« Last post by Lance Payette on Today at 12:34:24 AM »
That is what the HSCA panel observed, although they had JFK’s “severe external stimulus” earlier:

Connally's movements as he emerges from behind the sign at Zapruder frames 222—224 also indicate that he is reacting to a severe external stimulus. He appears to be frowning and there is a distinct stiffening of his shoulders and upper trunk. Then there is a radical change in his facial expression and rapid changes begin to occur in the orientation of his head.

Orr has JBC being shot at Z236 and reacting at Z237, which does seem clearly incorrect even though he cites support from Six Seconds in Dallas and the three Parkland doctors who treated JBC (in terms of how JBC's body would have been oriented). It would seem to me that the critical question is when JFK was hit.
19
The JFK Assassination - Discussion & Debate / Re: Shooting Strategy AI Dialogue
« Last post by Charles Collins on Today at 12:26:46 AM »
Quote from: John Corbett on Yesterday at 10:22:55 PM
I wonder if Oswald ever bothered to adjust his scope. At the ranges he fired at both in the Walker attempt and the JFKA, he didn't need competition level precision. A really good marksman probably wouldn't  even need the scope for such short ranges but for an average USMC marksman like Oswald, I can see how it would be helpful, even if not perfectly zeroed of the distance he was firing at. The fact the FBI determined the scope was aiming high indicates it had been zeroed for longer ranges. The scope was also aiming very slightly to the right. The WC theorized the high right aim of the scope might have aided Oswald because the movement of the limo would require Oswald to  lead his target and put his aim point high and to the right. We will never know if Oswald took all of this into account he aimed the rifle. Whether by skill or luck, Oswald did manage to put three of his shots on his intended target because his rifle was the one that fired the shots that struck JFK to the exclusion of all other firearms in the world.

One thing we will never know is what Oswald's aim point was. Was he aiming at the center of mass which would mean the headshot was high or was he aiming at the head which would make the backshot low. That's one of several questions Oswald never answered for us.



The evidence suggests that LHO did some substantial planning for the Walker attempt. Therefore I would fully expect that he had a pretty good estimate of the distance involved with the place that he planned to shoot from. LHO apparently paid extra money for the scope, so it seems to me that he planned to use it for the Walker attempt. With the above in mind, and Marina’s reports of LHO practicing with the rifle, I have to believe that he zeroed the scope for his estimated distance of the Walker attempt (~100’). And I would expect that the scope was still zeroed for that ~100’ distance on 11/22/63.

The iron sights are another story. They are fixed (non-adjustable) at 200-meters if I remember correctly. I will try to find out the exact distance that the iron sights are above the center of the bore and see if I can come up with a ballistics calculation of how far off they would have been at the various distances of the Walker attempt and the distances involved in Dealey Plaza.

20
The JFK Assassination - Discussion & Debate / Re: JFK Hands Never Go To-Or Toward-His Throat
« Last post by Steve Barber on Today at 12:02:47 AM »
Quote from: Lance Payette on Yesterday at 08:11:25 PM
I believe that's what we ex-lawyers call a non-responsive answer. The issue is why JBC's shoulder raises abruptly. I noted that both Kellerman and Jackie seem to flinch - admittedly less - in the same direction at the same time. I further noted that when I whip around, my own shoulder raises noticeably. One possibility is that JBC's shoulder raised because he was hit by the same bullet that hit JFK; another possibility is that it was the natural consequence of him whipping his head around. I'm not arguing for one or the other, merely asking the question if we can be certain about the reason for JBC's shoulder movement. The answer is not a matter of common sense. You think it is because you assume the SBT is correct. This is the fallacy of begging (avoiding) the question. If we knew the SBT was correct, Steve's video and this thread would be pointless. This is what I have described before as your tendency to reason backwards: because we know the SBT is correct, it follows that this is why JBC's shoulder raises.


 It's both shoulders that rise, not one.  They both rise, simultaneously. And Connally wasn't already turning his head when his shoulder's moved upward. He is in the same position he was in the entire travel down Elm Street from the time he jerked his head to his right after having just turned his head to the left.  He jerked his head from left to right within 1/4 of a second, and so did JFK just before Connally did.   The Zapruder film un-spliced film shows this vividly.  Both men did the same, exact thing, except JFK jerked his head a fraction of a second before Connally did.  Watch the film. Connally never changed his position-other than taking his right hand off the top of the side of the car just before the car starts to disappear behind the Stemmons Freeway sign. The first time Connally shows ANY change in his body position is when his facial expression changes and his shoulders raise immediately after the facial expression change, within the next Z frame. 
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