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MTG--

Thanks for commenting, and I am still reading your excellent book on SV, which I will review here.

We have different views on the JFKA, which I think was very small, and even improvised when circumstances were presented.

But hey, that is what a forum is for, to see different views.
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I've noticed that the word "s h o t" is being autocorrected to "xxxx". I can understand why that would be done with mild profanity but why would the word "s h o t" be unacceptable? Given the subject matter, it's a word that comes up quite often in the discourse.
??? Fixed
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As part of an ongoing project testing the forensic/ballistic elements of the assassination. I’ve done extensive and redundant ballistic testing, trajectory analysis and forensic reconstructions. To test the head shot trajectory and fragmentation pattern, I shot three intact pig’s heads.  I had pre and post X-rays taken.  Using surplus 6.5 Carcano on one of the heads, the shot did not explode the head and left a relatively small exit hole (8-9mm) with minor skull fracturing.  A witness panel 2 feet behind the head revealed only a slight yaw and the x-ray showed no fragmentation/jacket separation.  The maintained its trajectory through the skull into the witness panel.  Then using .257 Roberts with a thin jacketed sierra matchking projectile at 3300 fps, it took out the occipital skull and most of the brain with it.  It left the characteristic lead snowstorm on the x-ray and the smallest of fragments on the witness panel. 

I was a little uncertain as to the cortical thickness of the skull so I did a separate test shooting a 7 mm thick pork shoulder blade embedded on one end of a 8 inch ballistic gel block and pork ribs on the other end.  The Carcano round made a 6 mm round hole in the shoulder blade, cut a straight path through the ballistic gel, and clipped the edge of one if the ribs leaving a perfect semi circle.  The witness panel again showed a slight yaw and no fragmentation/jacket separation whatsoever with no deviation in trajectory. 

I’ve long been skeptical of the trajectories of CE 567 and 569, so that was the purpose of the test—but I couldn’t get the Carcano jacket to shear. 
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JFK Assassination Discussion & Debate / Re: Did Ruby really kill Oswald?
« Last post by John Corbett on Yesterday at 10:25:32 PM »
    To this day, we still have the Fake News Media, (MSNBC/MSNOW), claiming the Trump assassination attempt was staged. And that Trump did not suffer any kind of gunshot injury. The rejection of Stone Cold Fact(s) is not restricted to CT's, the JFK Assassination, or the psychedelic 60's in general.

So are you saying JFK CT nuttiness is on par with MSNOW nuttiness?
15
I've noticed that the word "s h o t" is being autocorrected to "xxxx". I can understand why that would be done with mild profanity but why would the word "s h o t" be unacceptable? Given the subject matter, it's a word that comes up quite often in the discourse.
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More absolute comedy consisting, as usual, of omissions, distortions, and falsehoods.

No, you really did use all those words that equate to MAYBE.
Quote

Here's an easy task for you: find me any other FBI document where two small fragments that constitute less than 2% of the mass of a bullet are described as a missile/bullet. Just find one that does this.

Do you really think I have access to FBI documents?
Quote

It is laughable that you have brainwashed yourself into believing, or that you pretend to believe, that Sibert and O'Neill described two small fragments as a missile.

And once again you pretend to know what Siebert and O'Neill meant by the word missile. You asked me to show you and FBI document that referred to bullet fragments as missiles. Why don't you show me where either of those men said the missiles they referred to were whole bullets. If neither of us can produce the requested documentation, it remains an open question. But once again, you choose to assume what you cannot prove. SOP.
Quote

Osborne was interviewed by the HSCA. How did you miss this fact in my reply?


My online source did not show him as an HSCA witness. I'm not saying that is absolute proof. So if you know what Osborne testified to before the HSCA, why don't you tell us what he said. Did he say he and Siebert received whole bullets at the autopsy? I think I already know the answer to that.
Quote

I cited Lifton's recorded interviews, which are available online for listening by anyone who wants to listen to them. Maybe in your uneducated mind, quoting from recorded interviews is "scraping bottom," but for most people such interviews are solid evidence.

I wouldn't trust Lifton if he said water is wet.
Quote


Oh, there's "some disagreement among the medical examiners" about "precisely where" the rear head entry wound was located, hey?! "Some disagreement"?! Umm, yeah, we're talking about a difference of a whopping 10 cm/4 inches on an area of skull that's no more than 7 inches tall, even though there were three fixed reference points available for use.

I know that they all agreed JFK was xxxx in the back of the head and that fits with the WC finding that Oswald fired the xxxx from the sniper's nest. None of them found any medical evidence of a frontal xxxx from either the GK or through the windshield which are things you have claimed.
Quote

Also, the only "medical examiners" who actually saw, measured, and handled the wound in person said it was slightly above the EOP, not 10 cm/4 inches higher and in a different bone of the skull separated by the obvious anatomical reference point of the lambdoid suture. I should add that six autopsy witnesses confirmed the EOP site.

Tell us why it matters if they all agreed JFK was xxxx in the back of the head. You seem to have this idiotic belief that if the FPP placed the entry incorrectly, it negates the finding that JFK was xxxx in the back of the head. You fail to appreciate that the entire upper right side of JFK's skull was shattered and the autopsy team had peeled back the scalp during the autopsy. The FPP had to try to reconstruct JFK's 3D skull from 2D pictures and photos. Not something they would have done during an actual medico-legal autopsy. So if the didn't get the entry wound placed exactly right, it doesn't negate the finding that JFK was xxxx in the back of the head. We also have the findings of forensic neuropathologist Dr. Peter Cummings, who identified the entry point based on the radiating fracture lines from that point of entry. That also validates the finding the headshot struck JFK from behind. Now tell use what evidence any qualified forensic medical examiner has identified that indicates a frontal xxxx. Can't do it? Didn't think so.
Quote

You keep dodging the fact that the only other proposed rear head entry wound site is the debunked cowlick site. As a reminder, even pro-WC doctor Dr. Robert Artwohl admitted that the autopsy photos at the National Archives show intact cerebral cortex in the exact spot of the cowlick entry site, just as Dr. Joseph Riley noted, and just as Dr. Mantik has confirmed. Surely even you can understand that if a bullet entered at the cowlick site, you could not have intact cerebral cortex just below the impact point. You can grasp this self-evident fact, right? 

I knew Bob Artwohl from the Prodigy group we were both members of in the early 1990s. I remember that he started out as a CT but converted to being an ardent LN during the few years we were on that service. I haven't seen anything Bob has written in at least two decades but unless he has done a 180 on the subject, he still believes JFK was shot in the back of the head. Can you quote him ever saying otherwise.
Quote

Your silly questions about how the Secret Service would have handled a whole bullet simply ignore the fact that Chief Mills confirmed to Navy historian Jan Herman that a deformed bullet was found in the limo and that Dr. Young later called to verify his recollection, not to mention the fact that Captain Stover recalled that the bullet was brought to the autopsy in an envelope, just as Dr. Young said. It is incredible that you just brush aside this powerful confirmation, not to mention that you argue that Dr. Young either outright lied about seeing the bullet or that he couldn't tell the difference between a whole bullet and two bullet fragments that were never even at the autopsy in the first place.

You seem at a loss to explain why the Secret Service would send the fragmented bullet to the FBI but send the whole bullet to the autopsy team. I've posed that question several times during this thread and you have dodged it each and every time. You claim it is a silly question because you can't come up with an answer to it that makes sense. There is no reason whatsoever for the Secret Service to send that bullet to Bethesda.
Quote

Are you ever going to stop dodging the fact that if you accept the EOP entry site, you cannot possibly believe the autopsy brain photos are authentic, since they show no damage to the right occipital lobe and no damage to the cerebellum, a physical impossibility if a bullet entered at the EOP site?

I am not forced to accept your amateurish opinion about the brain photos. The exact placement of the entry wound is not the important question. What is important to identifying the shooter is to determine from where the xxxx was fired from. If the autopsy team placed the entry wound correctly and the FPP placed it wrong, the xxxx came from behind. If the autopsy team placed the wound wrong and the FPP got it right, the xxxx came from behind. Either way, it fits with the conclusion that Oswald fired the xxxx which is what matters to me. You on the other hand want an excuse to deny that the xxxx came from behind, which means all the medical examiners got it wrong and you got it right. That is less likely than I am going to win the next Powerball drawing.
Quote



The FPP majority, whom you selectively cite as the final authority, pointed out that the brain photos categorically refute the EOP site because they show no damage to the right occipital lobe and no damage to the cerebellum. So if the FPP experts were correct, then you cannot accept the EOP site without repudiating the brain photos. It's one or the other.

You still are hung up on the exact placement of the entry wound and not the direction the shot came from, which is what really matters.
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It always amuses me when you offer your assumptions in lieu of any actual evidence.
"Quite possible"? Now there's a compelling argument.
Now you toss in a "may have".
Since neither Siebert nor O'Neill ever testified what they meant by "missile", this is pure conjecture.
Yet another assumption. Keep up the good work. <chuckle>
Neither Stover nor Osborne ever testified to the WC, HSCA, nor ARRB. Great source. .

And now you toss another "may have" into your word salad.
And another "may have". Keep going.
You are really scraping bottom when you cite Lifton.
Take it easy on the "may haves". Too much of a good thing.
Who testified to that?
Young never testified to any of this. Reportedly, he said this in an interview 38 years after the assassination. In the "What Price a Rose" article Young wrote for himself in 2013, he made no mention of any of this.
That is, of course, what should have been done with those fragments which begs the question, why would the Secret Service have handled a whole bullet any differently? Why would they have not sent that to the FBI as well? Why would they send the bullet to the medical examiners when the medical examiners are supposed to turn any bullets they find over to the investigators? It makes no sense.
While there is some disagreement as to precisely where on the back of JFK's head the bullet entered, there is no disagreement among the medical examiners that the entry was in the back of the head which fits perfectly with the conclusion that the headshot was fired from behind by Oswald.

As for your conclusion that the brain photos are fraudulent, that is the musing of an incompetent amateur who has had no training or experience in the field of forensic pathology. Only a fool would accept that conclusion over that of the professionals with years of training and experience.

More absolute comedy consisting, as usual, of omissions, distortions, and falsehoods.

Here's an easy task for you: find me any other FBI document where two small fragments that constitute less than 2% of the mass of a bullet are described as a missile/bullet. Just find one that does this.

It is laughable that you have brainwashed yourself into believing, or that you pretend to believe, that Sibert and O'Neill described two small fragments as a missile.

Osborne was interviewed by the HSCA. How did you miss this fact in my reply?

I cited Lifton's recorded interviews, which are available online for listening by anyone who wants to listen to them. Maybe in your uneducated mind, quoting from recorded interviews is "scraping bottom," but for most people such interviews are solid evidence.

Oh, there's "some disagreement among the medical examiners" about "precisely where" the rear head entry wound was located, hey?! "Some disagreement"?! Umm, yeah, we're talking about a difference of a whopping 10 cm/4 inches on an area of skull that's no more than 7 inches tall, even though there were three fixed reference points available for use.

Also, the only "medical examiners" who actually saw, measured, and handled the wound in person said it was slightly above the EOP, not 10 cm/4 inches higher and in a different bone of the skull separated by the obvious anatomical reference point of the lambdoid suture. I should add that six autopsy witnesses confirmed the EOP site.

You keep dodging the fact that the only other proposed rear head entry wound site is the debunked cowlick site. As a reminder, even pro-WC doctor Dr. Robert Artwohl admitted that the autopsy photos at the National Archives show intact cerebral cortex in the exact spot of the cowlick entry site, just as Dr. Joseph Riley noted, and just as Dr. Mantik has confirmed. Surely even you can understand that if a bullet entered at the cowlick site, you could not have intact cerebral cortex just below the impact point. You can grasp this self-evident fact, right? 

Your silly questions about how the Secret Service would have handled a whole bullet simply ignore the fact that Chief Mills confirmed to Navy historian Jan Herman that a deformed bullet was found in the limo and that Dr. Young later called to verify his recollection, not to mention the fact that Captain Stover recalled that the bullet was brought to the autopsy in an envelope, just as Dr. Young said. It is incredible that you just brush aside this powerful confirmation, not to mention that you argue that Dr. Young either outright lied about seeing the bullet or that he couldn't tell the difference between a whole bullet and two bullet fragments that were never even at the autopsy in the first place.

Are you ever going to stop dodging the fact that if you accept the EOP entry site, you cannot possibly believe the autopsy brain photos are authentic, since they show no damage to the right occipital lobe and no damage to the cerebellum, a physical impossibility if a bullet entered at the EOP site?

The FPP majority, whom you selectively cite as the final authority, pointed out that the brain photos categorically refute the EOP site because they show no damage to the right occipital lobe and no damage to the cerebellum. So if the FPP experts were correct, then you cannot accept the EOP site without repudiating the brain photos. It's one or the other.

Finally, we come to your howler that

Quote
In the "What Price a Rose" article Young wrote for himself in 2013, he made no mention of any of this.

Really? First off, he did not the article in 2013. He died in 2008. And, once again, you're relying on a brief excerpt, a 6-page excerpt with three photos, whereas the full article was 21 pages long. How many times are you going to commit this same blunder?

In the full version of "What Price a Rose?" Young mentioned the finding of the bullet, as I have already pointed out to you. Let's again read what he said on this in the article:

The envelope contained three pieces of skull bone, one about three inches in diameter, another two inches in diameter and the third about one to one and a half inches in diameter. It also contained a brass slug about half a centimeter in diameter and distorted.

Young quoted this statement from "What Price a Rose?" during his third 2001 interview, as I've already proved to you, and as you can confirm by reading the interview transcript ("Oral History with CAPT (ret) James Morningstar Young, MC, USN," Interview 3, p. 51,  https://whowhatwhy.org/wp-content/uploads/2017/10/Capt_James_Young_Interview.pdf).

Honestly, I don't know how you have the nerve to keep posting given how many times you have made an absolute laughing stock of yourself with inexcusable blunders.

18
This thread illustrates just how nutty CTs can be. Millions of people saw Ruby kill Oswald and that still isn't enough to convince some people of his guilt.

Had there been a hi-def security camera on the 6th floor of the TSBD and it showed Oswald taking aim and firing three shots out the window, some people would find some excuse to dismiss the footage. No amount of proof that Oswald was the assassin could ever be enough for a dedicated CT.

    To this day, we still have the Fake News Media, (MSNBC/MSNOW), claiming the Trump assassination attempt was staged. And that Trump did not suffer any kind of gunshot injury. The rejection of Stone Cold Fact(s) is not restricted to CT's, the JFK Assassination, or the psychedelic 60's in general.
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Michael, and Ms. Krotsch, thank you. It would take a thread to explain the clash of thinking "dictating" the approach counter to mine. I'll try to present a brief outline with one "prime" example. I'm sure you've noticed how Lance has been posting lately. His frustration is similar to mine. I had a favorable opinion of him until he voiced his strong objection to the right of women to control what goes on in their own bodies.

I am convinced most prefer not to be informed of new, verifiable research details. In fact, exposure to it is resented, often angrily.

Background: Jean Davison and a poster named Brian with a brief, strong presence triggered my interest in November, 2015. The result was all of this research, in chronological order.

My research definitely hit a nerve.:
https://web.archive.org/web/20160419175050/http://jfk.education/node/11
Sorry Brian, Jean, and DVP, Banks Did Not Key-Punch 1963 P.O. Money Orders
Submitted by Admin on Tue, 11/10/2015 - 06:47
Updated November 19, 2015:....
Two pages of supporting research of discoveries outline above.:
https://web.archive.org/web/20160419152939/http://jfk.education/node/12

https://web.archive.org/web/20160419180202/http://jfk.education/node/13

I have never directly communicated with Lance but together, we inadvertently went to a "don't go there," territory that collided with "finished product".

Michael, even reading it four years later, it still seems so divorced from the way I think and the approach I take. It seems
a concrete overcoat with an anchor chain wrapped around any researcher's neck, for good measure.

MWT Graves had suggested Jim let up on Lance, in an Ed Forum post.
I had stumbled into and presented an evidence heavy, reasonable explanation of all Klein's postal money order Armstrong "outliers" and Lance had found the purpose for the numbers string (138....etc.) inked onto the front of the $21.45 money order.:


A "third" way is unappreciated and unwelcome.
is simkin still penn jones in the 2020s are LNs still out on their 3-martini lunch?
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muttering small talk at the wall.
 ::) nobody cares

I guess you speak for nobody.
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