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Payette is citing an old, early statement by Dr. Mantik on 9/11, a statement he made before he had done any research on the subject. Dr. Mantik soon came to firmly reject 9/11 Truther claims, as he has made clear. I have personally talked with Dr. Mantik about this issue at length. He is totally convinced that 9/11 Truth claims are false. In an ongoing email discussion, he has posted evidence against 9/11 Truther claims.
Super! Your statement about Mantik knowing nothing about 9/11 was made on June 2, 2023, and you said you had just conferred with him. He has now dived into the issue with both feet and is prepared to speak authoritatively on the subject, although I can find no reference to him ever having said anything about 9/11. So why did you ignore Mark Ulrik's polite requests to share Mantik's supposed research that you referenced ... hmmmm?  ::)

I have a feeling your ad hominem attacks on a CT researcher of the quality of Pat Speer are only enhancing his reputation and further diminishing yours. As with Bart Kamp, I can appreciate the thoroughness and value of Pat's work without agreeing with everything he says (and I am inclined to agree with his placement of the head wound entry). Bart's and Pat's sites are two of the genuine goldmines of JFKA material.
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Mr. Epistemology has now hit his morning golf balls and will make one more attempt at clarification ...

On another thread, Greg Doudna took me to task for ridiculing his elaborate Walker scenario. I admit, it makes no sense to me if Walker's only purpose was to stage an assassination attempt to enhance his reputation. But Greg's scenario is like John Orr's: it's internally consistent and accounts for the entire event. You can take it or leave it and even say "that makes no sense" when what you really mean is "that makes no sense to me." You can't say THAT MAKES NO SENSE AT ALL, because it does hang together with internal consistency and logic.

One trap we shouldn't fall into is thinking that whatever we believe (e.g., the LN narrative) is the "default rational" position and any other position is either ipso facto irrational or so "extraordinary" that it requires "extraordinary" evidence. Atheists do this all the time on religion forums, and I think we see it here from some LN zealots. Greg's Walker theory is not irrational and is "extraordinary" (to me) only in the sense that it is wildly different from the conventional explanation and seems fantastically, unnecessarily elaborate. But it just requires evidence, not extraordinary evidence, and you can take it or leave it. I wasn't clear about that on the other thread, more or less suggesting you were insane if you believed it.

Unlike Greg's Walker scenario, which as I said accounts for the entire event, the supposed alteration of the Z film is not a stand-alone issue. If the issue were simply "Was the Z film altered?" then Kevin's point that the silliness is not self-evident would be true. There is at least a body of supposed evidence and expert opinion that might cause an entirely rational person to say, in a vacuum, "By God, I think it was altered."

But the supposed alteration of the Z film is not a stand-alone issue. It is part and parcel of some theory as to what took place with the JFKA. It has to make sense within that context. You have to be able to articulate an internally consistent and reasonably logical theory of the JFKA in which the need to alter the Z film and the supposed alteration of it MAKES SENSE. Your theory doesn't have to convince me, but it has to MAKE SENSE. In philosophical terms, it has to be "epistemologically justified" even it happens to be 100% untrue. I can't think of any such theory and haven't heard one. In fact, to me it seems ridiculous. But since hope springs eternal, I did issue my challenge.

This is why CTers play the endless game of "What about THIS?" and "What about THAT?" and "What about THAT over there?" They want every issue to be examined in a vacuum. "Z film alteration = conspiracy." If they can keep the focus on the supposed Z film alteration as though it were a stand-alone issue, they can sound sorta-kinda persuasive. When you say, "Super! So what was the conspiracy and how does the necessity to alter the Z film fit into it? How would that have worked, from the time they were planning the JFKA and considering the possibility of cameras in Dealey Plaza to Abe doing his filming to the events immediately thereafter to the alteration itself? How would it have worked and what sense would it have made?" - well, then, they have no answer and shift the focus to "And what about THAT over there?"

Gee, I was expecting to loudly complain that Mytton is mostly repeating stuff he has already posted many times before. But, I guess you only care when WC skeptics revisit issues and repeat some of their material. You don't seem to mind at all when WC believers do it. Duly noted.
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Quote from: Charles Collins on June 11, 2026, 03:58:42 PM

“Agreed, also there were other firearms experts that verified the FBI’s conclusions, etc. As far as I know, none of them indicated anything either.”
 


J Corbett: 

“It doesn't matter to the amateurish CT sleuths. They know their opinion based on low resolution 6th generation copies of photographs of the shells trumps those of real experts in their field.”

 
You mean like the chamber mark on the side of the shells that the FBI noted in their report to Rankin, but Charles claimed came from the rear receiver of the rifle and not the chamber of the rifle. I have never seen where the real experts other than the FBI identifies the indentations as a chamber mark. Josiah observed the chamber mark on even CE 141 and confirmed what the FBI analysis stated. The “real” experts had not a clue. Any breakthrough on providing evidence of an early missed shot? JBC is definitely not proof.
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Mr. Epistemology has now hit his morning golf balls and will make one more attempt at clarification ...

On another thread, Greg Doudna took me to task for ridiculing his elaborate Walker scenario. I admit, it makes no sense to me if Walker's only purpose was to stage an assassination attempt to enhance his reputation. But Greg's scenario is like John Orr's: it's internally consistent and accounts for the entire event. You can take it or leave it and even say "that makes no sense" when what you really mean is "that makes no sense to me." You can't say THAT MAKES NO SENSE AT ALL, because it does hang together with internal consistency and logic.

One trap we shouldn't fall into is thinking that whatever we believe (e.g., the LN narrative) is the "default rational" position and any other position is either ipso facto irrational or so "extraordinary" that it requires "extraordinary" evidence. Atheists do this all the time on religion forums, and I think we see it here from some LN zealots. Greg's Walker theory is not irrational and is "extraordinary" (to me) only in the sense that it is wildly different from the conventional explanation and seems fantastically, unnecessarily elaborate. But it just requires evidence, not extraordinary evidence, and you can take it or leave it. I wasn't clear about that on the other thread, more or less suggesting you were insane if you believed it.

Unlike Greg's Walker scenario, which as I said accounts for the entire event, the supposed alteration of the Z film is not a stand-alone issue. If the issue were simply "Was the Z film altered?" then Kevin's point that the silliness is not self-evident would be true. There is at least a body of supposed evidence and expert opinion that might cause an entirely rational person to say, in a vacuum, "By God, I think it was altered."

But the supposed alteration of the Z film is not a stand-alone issue. It is part and parcel of some theory as to what took place with the JFKA. It has to make sense within that context. You have to be able to articulate an internally consistent and reasonably logical theory of the JFKA in which the need to alter the Z film and the supposed alteration of it MAKES SENSE. Your theory doesn't have to convince me, but it has to MAKE SENSE. In philosophical terms, it has to be "epistemologically justified" even it happens to be 100% untrue. I can't think of any such theory and haven't heard one. In fact, to me it seems ridiculous. But since hope springs eternal, I did issue my challenge.

This is why CTers play the endless game of "What about THIS?" and "What about THAT?" and "What about THAT over there?" They want every issue to be examined in a vacuum. "Z film alteration = conspiracy." If they can keep the focus on the supposed Z film alteration as though it were a stand-alone issue, they can sound sorta-kinda persuasive. When you say, "Super! So what was the conspiracy and how does the necessity to alter the Z film fit into it? How would that have worked, from the time they were planning the JFKA and considering the possibility of cameras in Dealey Plaza to Abe doing his filming to the events immediately thereafter to the alteration itself? How would it have worked and what sense would it have made?" - well, then, they have no answer and shift the focus to "And what about THAT over there?"
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In a supreme display of selectivity and confirmation bias, the same lone-gunman theorists who claim that all three autopsy doctors, including Dr. Finck, who was a board-certified forensic pathologist, (1) mistook a wound 1 cm above the lambda in the parietal bone for a wound 1 cm above the EOP in the occipital bone, even though they had the hairline, the lambda, and the EOP as reference points, and even though they reflected the scalp and examined the wound from the interior of the skull, and (2) mistook the plainly obvious downward-trajectory fragment trail near the top of the skull that goes nowhere near the back of the head for an upward-trajectory fragment trail at least 2 inches lower and that started very near the back of the head—the same lone-gunman theorists who accuse the autopsy doctors of making these astonishing blunders turn around and assure us that the autopsy doctors accurately described the exit wound on the head! 

I must confess that when I first became aware of the relocation of the rear head entry wound shortly after I began to study the assassination, I merely assumed this was further proof that the autopsy doctors were severely incompetent. But, when I realized the huge difference between the EOP site and the revised location (the cowlick site), I thought, “Wait a minute. Not even Humes, Boswell, and Finck could have made such a gigantic blunder.”

As I began to get a better handle on the medical evidence and on the trajectories involved in the shooting, I realized that the EOP site could not have been hit by a bullet fired from the sixth-floor window, and that this was why the wound was moved. (As mentioned earlier, the WC’s experts had to assume JFK’s head was tilted over 50 degrees forward to get the EOP site to line up with the sixth-floor window.)

What makes the gigantic-blunder argument even more wildly implausible is the fact that the autopsy doctors reaffirmed the EOP site when they examined the autopsy materials at the National Archives in January 1967. In their report on the examination, they stated that the autopsy photos showed the rear head entry wound where they placed it in the autopsy report:

The autopsy report states that a lacerated entry wound measuring 15 by 6 mm (0.59 by 0.24 inches) is situated in the posterior scalp approximately 2.5 cm (1 inch) laterally to the right and slightly above the external occipital protuberance (a bony protuberance at the back of the head). In non-technical language, this indicates that a small wound was found in the back of the head on the right side. Photographs Nos 15, 16, 42, and 43 show the location and size of the wound, and establish that the above autopsy data were accurate. . . .

The photographs and x-rays corroborate our visual observations during the autopsy and conclusively support our medical opinion as set forth in the summary of our autopsy report. (Report on Examination of JFK Autopsy Materials, 1/26/67, pp. 3, 5)


Furthermore, autopsy witnesses Roy Kellerman and Francis O’Neill put the rear head entry wound near the EOP/hairline in the wound diagrams they drew for federal investigators. And, chief autopsy photographer John Stringer also said the wound was near the EOP/hairline, and he specifically rejected the cowlick entry site when asked to examine the autopsy photos.

Getting back to the 7x2 mm fragment seen above the right orbit in the autopsy skull x-rays, if you view the fragment on the lateral skull x-ray, you see that it is nowhere near the high fragment trail and does not come close to aligning with the trail’s trajectory. It is a good 1 inch (2.5 cm) below the high fragment trail and 1.25 inches (3.1 cm) to the right of it. 

Finally, I see that Lance Payette is citing college dropout Pat Speer's blundering attacks on Dr. Mantik's optical-density research. If you want to see how erroneous and amateurish Speer's attacks are in this area, I recommend reading Dr. Mantik's reply to them:

https://themantikview.org/pdf/Speer_Critique.pdf

BTW, Speer strongly argues that the EOP site is correct. I thought I should mention this, since Payette ignored it. Speer has an entrenched ideological bias against the idea that any of the medical evidence was planted or altered, and this has led him to make truly embarrassing arguments against Mantik's optical-density research (and also against Dr. Michael Chesser's optical-density research). However, when it comes to the rear head entry wound, he argues that the cowlick site is bogus, that the cowlick site was put forward to avoid the impossible trajectory required for the EOP site, and that the EOP site can actually be seen on one of the autopsy photos.

Payette is citing an old, early statement by Dr. Mantik on 9/11, a statement he made before he had done any research on the subject. Dr. Mantik soon came to firmly reject 9/11 Truther claims, as he has made clear. I have personally talked with Dr. Mantik about this issue at length. He is totally convinced that 9/11 Truth claims are false. In an ongoing email discussion, he has posted evidence against 9/11 Truther claims.

Notice that the WC believers who are posting in this thread are making no attempt to explain the evidence I'm presenting. They're doing everything but that.
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Good morning Lance. I don’t believe you understand the issues here. I assure you I care very much about the truth and facts. The issue is new information, not possibly known before 2019 but known now (because of the car identification), that Walker aide Robert Surrey was witnessed having walked out of the alley position from where the shot was fired, only seconds after the shot was fired. Yet he does not have a rifle. But it was him.

Now it is all well and good for you to say it makes no sense that Oswald would be there too at the same time as Surrey in that alley, but you need to explain then do you think Oswald was or was not there too with Surrey. One starts with facts first, not with interpretation and then deny facts because the interpretation doesn’t seem to make sense.

And if you are tempted to kneejerk deny Kirk Coleman’s man No. 2 was Surrey going to Surrey’s car, then I don’t think you have read and appreciate the argument there.

Even the FBI in their investigation thought Coleman’s man No 2 was either a Walker person, involved in the shot, or a frightened witness, one of those three, take your pick—who are you to know better. Maybe show a little more humility in commenting on things you haven’t read or understand. That said, I normally like your astute analyses on most things. You’ve got this one wrong here though.

My abstract of the argument:
https://www.scrollery.com/wp-content/uploads/2026/05/Walker-chapter-summaries-110pdf.pdf

I did read or at least skim most of the long thread at the Ed Forum. My point in regard to your Walker scenario is different from my points in relation to the alteration of the Z film. I am going to post again on that thread because I want to keep that discussion in one place. Yes, your Walker theory is creative and internally consistent. Where it makes no sense to me is when we pose the question, "Why would General Walker, if wishing to be able to claim that an attempt had been made on his life, have resorted to such an elaborate scenario with so many obvious risks when the same claim could have been made on the basis of an extremely simple scenario?" No one had the presence of mind to say "Uh, General, couldn't we just ....?" With both Walker and Tippit, there seems to be a desire on your part for innovative, mind-boggling complexity. Everyone in those scenarios seems to me to have been completely lacking in common sense. But I will await your 140,000-word book and contribute my shekels if it's on Kindle.
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Yup. That's what the evidence indicates.

A pristine bullet is one that hasn't hit anything. CE399 ceased being a pristine bullet once it entered JFK's back. A Carcano bullet does not remain stable after passing through soft tissue. It will tumble which explains why it is damaged at the base of it rather than the nose. This isn't exactly rocket science.

    Tying yourself to the mast Never ends well.
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Forrest Sorrels, the Secret Service agent in Dallas, drove around with Zapruder trying to find someone who could develop the film and then another group who could make copies. Then after making copies they went back to Kodak (the first group) to develop those. The obvious act would have been to immediately take the camera from Zapruder and send it to Washington for examination. Don't let him develop it, don't let others see it, don't let him make copies that you'd have to control.

Instead, Sorrels "allowed" Zapruder to make copies, keep the original, and let probably a dozen or more people see the film before obtaining it. It being two *copies* and NOT the original.

"Erwin" was Erwin Schwartz, Zapruder's business partner.


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I could have a bit of word playing fun with the name Luna Committee but it's just too easy.
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