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Of course, then we have the minor problems of where the bullet from the throat wound went, where the bullet from the back wound went, and the "rather" unusually close alignment of the back and throat wounds - so close that one bullet causing both wounds is by far the accepted theory. Hence Cliff Varnell's reliance on melting CIA-issued ice bullets, which frankly strikes most people as "just a bit" unlikely. Even a dud back wound that only penetrated an inch with a melting CIA ice bullet from the front seems "rather" unlikely - and what the hell would be the point of using a melting ice bullet from the front if it wasn't going to disguise a frontal shot anyway? I believe there are legitimate issues with the SBT, but to still try to be arguing that the throat would is an entrance is far-lunatic-fringe stuff.

Is it just me, or does MTG seem to be in near-desperation mode, flooding the forum with his nonsense? He is the very antithesis of my point that CTers who wish to be taken seriously should focus on plausibility, in terms of both evidence and theory, instead of shoveling loads of far-fetched and internally inconsistent poop and hoping some of it sticks. For all of his relentless self-promotion over umpteen years, MTG seems to have scarcely made a dent in the JFKA community; he strikes me as the proverbial legend in his own mind.

I was going to make all of these points but you saved me the trouble.

You make far more sense when you are wearing your LN cap. Maybe you should 86 all the CT caps. You must have a collection of those. One LN cap is all that is needed.
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MTG-

Thanks for posting, but I have always had reservations about the "JFK was shot from the front" narratives.

Have you read the ARRB materials? One of the many historic disclosures from the ARRB-released documents is Dr. Ebersole's statement to the HSCA FPP that by around 10:00 or 10:30 Humes knew about the throat wound from communications with Dallas ("Testimony of John H. Ebersole," HSCA, 3/11/1978, p. 5). This is crucial because we know from the released transcript of the WC's 1/27/64 executive session that one of the first two drafts of the autopsy report said the back wound bullet had no exit, and that the other draft said the throat wound was the exit point for a fragment from the head shot, proving that Humes knew about the throat wound long before he claimed he did.

This, in turn, is very important because we know from the ARRB materials that by the end of the autopsy the autopsy doctors knew for an absolute fact that the back wound had no exit point, that they had done prolonged and repeated probing, that they had even removed the chest organs so they could see where the probe went inside the chest cavity, and that the autopsy doctors and the men standing near the autopsy table could see the end of the probe pushing up against the lining of the chest cavity. Jenkins told Lifton the same thing years before the ARRB.

The long-standing myth had been, and among WC apologists still is, that Humes did not know about the throat wound until the following morning and that this was why he did not identify the throat wound as a possible exit point for the back wound. The 1/27/64 WC executive session transcript alone destroys that myth because it reveals that one of the first drafts of the autopsy report said the throat wound was the exit point for a head-shot fragment. Yet, to this day, lone-gunman theorists continue to repeat the myth that Humes knew nothing about the throat wound until the morning after the autopsy.

The very notion that the autopsy doctors did not know about the throat wound before the autopsy is doubtful on its face. The throat wound had been discussed at the televised press conference with the Dallas doctors held shortly after JFK died. News reports about the press conference were carried on radio stations and appeared in evening-edition newspapers all over the country. For that matter, the autopsy photo that shows JFK's neck clearly shows the bottom half of the circular throat wound; a first-year med student would not have missed it. Anyway, the issue has long since been settled by the 1/27/64 WC executive session transcript and later by Ebersole's disclosure to the FPP that Humes know about the throat wound by no later than 10:30 that night (no wonder Ebersole's FPP testimony was sealed--thank goodness the ARRB released it).

Since the throat wound could not have been caused by the back-wound bullet, and since the throat wound could not have resulted from a head-shot fragment (such a fragment would have had to tear a path from the inner skull to the throat), this is strong evidence that the Dallas doctors and nurses were correct in identifying the throat wound as an entry wound, and this, in turn, explains why the throat wound was small, neat, circular, and punched inward, and why the damage behind and below the throat wound was larger than the wound itself.   

I cover this historic evidence in some detail in the research notes that I linked in the OP: “Research Notes on the Shored-Wound Theory to Explain JFK’s Throat Wound,” https://drive.google.com/file/d/1h48FpT89KrC0rNrl4XC3MDePLDFEBBHb/view.

As for the evidence of a head shot from the front, I would refer you to three articles that are good introductions on the subject:

Dr. Michael Chesser, “A Review of the JFK Cranial x-Rays and Photographs,” Assassination of JFK website, 2015, http://assassinationofjfk.net/a-review-of-the-jfk-cranial-x-rays-and-photographs/

Dr. Michael Chesser, “The Application of Forensic Principles for the Analysis of the Autopsy Skull X-Rays of President Kennedy and a Review of the Brain Photographs,” 2017, Kennedys and King website, https://kennedysandking.com/images/pdf/michael-chesser-houston-2017.pdf

"The Head Shot from the Front"
https://drive.google.com/file/d/19GwhnIVGHlrffoyM_T242fF_J9v4QeQl/view

Just one point on a frontal head shot: Mortician Tom Robinson told the HSCA that there was a small hole in JFK's right temple, and that he filled it with wax to keep embalming fluid from leaking out of it. This is telling because shortly after JFK died, Malcolm Kilduff pointed to his own right temple to show reporters how JFK had been shot. In addition, there is a suspicious lesion in this same spot on the stare-of-death autopsy photo that surely looks like it could be an entry wound--and there is also a notch in this same area on the autopsy skull x-rays, as Dr. Chesser discusses. I think one of the best discussions on the implications of Robinson's disclosure is Dr. Don Thomas's analysis in Hear No Evil, pp. 247-279.

1. The windshield.

This is not a problem for a frontal shot to the throat. This issue has already been covered by a number of scholars. Rather than repeat what they've observed, I would just refer you to their research: Dr. Mantik, Doug Weldon, and Doug Horne.

2. Witnesses. JBC and wife believe the shots came from the rear. There are indisputable bullet wounds in JFK's and JBC's back.

I agree, and we both agree that JFK and Connally were hit by separate non-fatal bullets.

But keep in mind that many witnesses also said shots came from the front, and several witnesses saw gun smoke or smelled gun powder on and near the knoll. In addition, the Wiegman film shows a small cloud of smoke hanging in the air in an area near the fence on the knoll, and that smoke could not have come from the steam pipe over 100 feet away or from patrol bike exhaust, not to mention that the acoustical evidence proves that a shot came from the knoll--and from the same area that Lee Bowers saw two men hanging around and then saw a flash of light or smoke during the shooting. The acoustical evidence for a grassy knoll shot is so strong that even the abjectly biased NAS panel was forced to admit that their own research showed there was a 77.7% probability that the 144.9 impulse pattern was caused by gunfire from the knoll.

I should add that the NAS panel was only able to reduce the probability of the grassy knoll shot from 95%-plus  to 77.7% by introducing two outright errors into their analysis, as Dr. Scheim, Dr. Chambers, and Dr. Thomas have discussed. Even then, 77.7% is a high probability.

3. Where did the bullets from the front go?

I'm a bit surprised by this question, but I would answer it by saying we should first consider what we have long known about the FBI's and the DPD's handling of evidence, what we have long known about the evidence of extra bullets and missed shots in Dealey Plaza, what we now about the finding of an extra bullet--a misshapen bullet--in the limo during the autopsy, and what we now know from ARRB and other disclosures about the amount of bullet fragments found during the autopsy and the finding of a bullet in the sheets that were wrapped around JFK at the autopsy.

I would refer you to my article "Extra Bullets and Missed Shots in Dealey Plaza," https://drive.google.com/file/d/1WRwhDQ9HMydf5pICsHwgtkoNKw0YSO8T/view?usp=sharing.

The front head-shot bullet was a frangible missile that exploded after penetrating the skull. This bullet's fragments remained in the skull, as is typical for frangible ammo. This is why we see a "snowstorm" of dozens of tiny fragments in the right-frontal region on the autopsy skull x-rays. Humes said nothing about this obvious cluster of fragments in the autopsy report because he knew he could not associate it with the EOP entry wound.

The FPP's radiology consultants acknowledged the right-frontal fragment snowstorm, but the FPP themselves merely acknowledged that the x-rays show "numerous minute fragments widely distributed throughout the skull" (7 HSCA 11), and then later in their report they blandly acknowledged that they considered the "small particles of radiopaque materials" at the right coronal suture "to be missile fragments" (7 HSCA 120)--and the FPP obscured the right-frontal lead snowstorm in their "enhanced" versions of the skull x-rays by virtually washing it out of the images.

The "enhanced" skull x-rays fooled Dr. Sturdivan into believing there was no right-frontal cluster of numerous small fragments on the skull x-rays, which cluster he said would be there if a frangible bullet had struck in the right front. (Yet, when he became aware that the unenhanced x-rays show the right-frontal snowstorm, he forgot all about what he told the FPP on the issue and still says the rear head shot was the only head shot.)

We have good evidence that JFK's body arrived about 40-45 minutes before its officially recorded arrival time, and we have at least two witnesses who saw Humes working on the body before the autopsy began. It is entirely possible that Humes removed the throat-wound bullet from the upper chest during this pre-autopsy surgery (the Dallas doctors believed the bullet had ranged downward into the chest).

Another possibility has been raised by several scholars, namely, that a fragment of glass from the bullet that made a hole in the windshield hit the throat and ranged downward into the chest.

The gashed appearance of the throat wound in the autopsy photos could have resulted from pre-autopsy surgery to the wound to remove the projectile that caused it (several Dallas medical witnesses said the throat wound did not look so large and gashed after the tracheostomy).

Those who find the idea of pre-autopsy surgery or another type of suppression of the throat bullet unacceptable need to explain the fact that the throat wound could not have been made by the back-wound bullet or by a head-shot fragment, and the fact that the throat wound had every major textbook characteristic of an entry wound. Fact must govern theory, not the other way around.

It's always a pleasure talking with you, Ben.


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It's incredibly easy to "completely discredit" a professional photographic panels analysis.
You simply look at the evidence yourself. It's called research.

Yep, kinda what I thought: "John C mode," as it shall henceforth be known. "I decide what the evidence shows."

Quote
I knew exactly who you were referring to which is why I made the point.
I knew they stated "almost directly in front".
ALMOST DIRECTLY IN FROINT.
Not - RIGHT IN FRONT, as you misremembered.
ALMOST DIRECTLY IN FRONT can, in no way, be thought of as RIGHT IN FRONT.
They are two completely different things. Two completely different positions.
Your truly sad attempt to pass them off as the same thing is yet another example of the dumbness that plagues your every post.

Is English your second language? "Right in front" and "almost directly in front" are "two completely different things?" I somehow missed that nuance in my 50+ years of writing and editing professionally. We are talking about a vehicle passing women on a curb a few feet away, and you insist "right in front" and "almost directly in front" are two "completely different things." Ho-kay ...

My "truly sad attempt" to "pass them off" is yet another example of "the dumbness" that "plagues" my every post? If you operate at this level of anger over an internet discussion, it's a wonder you haven't popped a vein or two - or perhaps you have? Do your wife and dog stay out of the room while you are spewing spittle over the keyboard lest you vent your fury on them? Jesus.

Dr. Payette, having dealt with umpteen fellow lawyers trying to wiggle out of a faux pas, would hazard a guess that you were caught with your pants down (figuratively speaking, or maybe not) and have seized upon the massive difference between "right in front" and "almost directly in front" in a bizarre and comical effort to save face because you simply can't stand to be wrong. Put your pants back on - no one really cares.
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Not that I care, but in the best photos, including the one from the Sixth Floor Museum, https://www.jfk.org/collections-archive/photograph-of-the-exterior-of-the-texas-school-book-depository-3/, it definitely doesn't look like a flat sign. It looks like a "box." That would seemingly be a very odd place for a sign, but not for an electrical box or an alien craft from another dimension of some sort.
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Andrew Iler (a Canadian lawyer) is one of Jim D's co-authors of the 2023 book "The JFK Assassination Chokeholds".

https://www.onthetrailofdelusion.com/post/chokeholds-uses-a-fake-story

Ah, thanks. I studiously avoided Chokeholds. There is, of course, no such thing as a Canadian lawyer.  :D :D :D
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OUR PRAYERS HAVE BEEN ANSWERED!  :D :D :D

The Ed Forum is paid up and will continue until the Second Coming.

The Zionism thread is alive and kicking.

Niederwacky says he has retired, so he should be able to devote full time to his, er, "interests."

Can it get any better than this?
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In 1976 the Itek Corporation, specialists in photographic analysis, looked at the issue of exactly when Connally was showing a reaction to being hit. The following is their report.
By frame 232-234 there is strong evidence that the Governor is reacting to a significant effect on his body; or from other data, to a bullet wound. He placed the time of his reaction at 234. We studied the film in this area to determine if there were any striking changes in his physical appearance which could be interpreted as the onset of a reaction. Five photo analysts studied the original film from frames 222-240. They all concluded independently that somewhere between 223-226 there are signs of the beginning of a significant change in the governor's position and appearance. Some of their comments are paraphrased below.
— As Connally first clears the obscuring sign on frame 221, his facial features are not discernable or distinct. Frames 222 and 223 show no unusual action and Connally's face and features remain frozen (normal). With frame 224, I observe a slight grimace, a minor body twist, a slight arching of the back and a rearward head motion. These reactions continue on frame 225 which includes a slight hiking up in the seat. By frame 226 Connally's head is turned forward which I judged to be a rapid reaction. Frame 227 yields no information due to the high amount of smear, but the following frames 228, 9 and 30 indicate a rapid reaction of the hand holding the Stetson which was flicked up and down quickly.
— I observe a rotation of the Governor's body from right to left beginning at frame 223. It isn't obvious that this is significant relative to the study objective, however I also observe what I would consider an involuntary and unusual motion of his right hand and arm at 225. Before 225, his hand is hidden from Zapruder's view, down below the edge of the door. At 225-226 it can be seen to travel rapidly upward until it is about level with his chin in 228. From 228-230 he flips his hat rapidly. At 229 it appears upside down in his hand with the thin edge of the brim extending toward Zapruder. By 230 the hat has flipped so that one can now see into it. This all takes place within less than 1/3 of a second so it would appear to be somewhat unusual.

— At frame #223 he is turned in the jump seat sitting well into the car. I noticed a facial expression changing between #223 and 224 to a grimacing look. His body has moved forward (toward the edge of the car) with his right shoulder twisting to his left and downward. Between frames #225 and 226 a rapid motion of the Governor's right hand begins, i.e. #225 - his hand inside of car, #226 - his Stetson hat appears over the edge of the car, #228 - the hat is up in front of his chin concealing it. At #229 and 230 he flips his hat from edge on to a view of looking at the inside of it.

Source: "John Kennedy Assassination Film Analysis" — Itek Corporation, May 2, 1976, pp. 36-39 Emphasis in original.
(https://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/jbchit.htm)
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JFK started reacting well before z225.  His reaction at z226 and after is not his first reaction.  We can see from his face in z225 that something is already terribly wrong. His turn forward at z194-z198 could be the beginning of a reaction.  The reaction at z226 could be the result of taking his first breath after being hit at z190-z193.
JBC’s reaction is slower because he is not reacting to being hit by the first shot.  He never felt the thigh wound. But he recognized the first noise as a rifle shot and took a second or so to assess its significance, realized that an assassination was underway and decided to turn around to check on the President.He never felt the thigh wound.  So why would he be reacting to that?  He said he reacted to the first shot by turning around to check on JFK. That is what he begins to do at z228 and after.

He never felt the thigh wound.

 :D :D :D
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BTW, Niedernut and fellow traveler Don Jeffries have been singing the praises of a Frenchman named Laurent Guyénot.

You never heard of him either? Count yourself lucky.

The AI version:

You said: Is Laurent Guyénot considered an anti-Semitic crackpot?

Laurent Guyénot is widely classified by mainstream historians, political analysts, and watchdog groups as an antisemitic conspiracy theorist.

While the term "crackpot" is a subjective colloquialism, public consensus and academic analysis firmly position his work outside of legitimate scholarship, characterizing it as fringe, conspiratorial revisionism.

Association with Antisemitic Ideology Guyénot's work heavily incorporates classic antisemitic tropes disguised as geopolitical and religious critiques:The "Jewish Power" Narrative: In books like “Our God is Your God Too, But He Has Chosen Us”: Essays on Jewish Power and From Yahweh to Zion, he argues that Jewish religious history is a framework for tribal manipulation and global domination.

The "Israel Did It" Trope: In his deep-state writings, he routinely attributes catastrophic world events to Zionist networks. For instance, he claims that the State of Israel and the Mossad were the primary instigators behind both the assassination of John F. Kennedy and the September 11 terror attacks.

Ties to Extremist Publishers: In France, his political and conspiracy-oriented works are published by Kontre Kulture, the publishing house founded by Alain Soral, a notorious and repeatedly convicted French far-right antisemitic ideologue.Why He is Considered a Fringe FigureIn mainstream academic and historical circles, Guyénot is rejected as a reliable source for several key reasons:Pseudohistory ("Recentism"):

Beyond geopolitics, he advocates for "recentism", a fringe pseudohistorical theory claiming that mainstream chronology is faked and that hundreds of years of the first millennium AD never actually occurred.

Conspiratorial Monomania: His research style follows a pattern common to conspiracy theorists: rather than evaluating evidence neutrally, he treats complex, unrelated global tragedies (JFK, 9/11, biblical history) as part of a single, coordinated, centuries-old plot orchestrated by a specific group.

Isolation from Peer Review: While he holds a legitimate PhD in medieval studies and his early work on Arthurian legends was academic, his geopolitical and revisionist books are completely self-contained within fringe, alternative-media echo chambers and completely lack peer-reviewed validation.


---30---

More P.U. from Niedernut. Why Simkin had Niedernut "moderate" the EF-JFKA for more than a year....


 
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What is the difference between z224 and z225 that convinces you that JFK is not reacting in z224 but is in z225?
What evidence is telling you that his contorted face in z225 is not part of his reaction?
 
As far as the position of the car as described by the withesses, you need to look at all the evidence. Almost directly in front suggests the car had not yet passed by where she was standing.  But you don’t need to guess. Look at other witnesses. At z225 the VP security car is well past the turn. JFK is no longer in Linda Willis’ sightline to the Stemmons sign.  The limo is well past the west edge of the TSBD (Greer said it was just passing the west edge).  And it is more than a second after Phil Willis’ photo taken at z202 which he said was just after the first shot.

What is the difference between z224 and z225 that convinces you that JFK is not reacting in z224 but is in z225?

You've already asked this and it's already been answered just a few posts ago. Are you having a senior moment?

you need to look at all the evidence

I have looked at all the evidence regarding this issue.
I created a thread to do it - "The First Shot".
You must remember it. It's the thread where your silly theory died a thousand times over.
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