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The JFK Assassination - Discussion & Debate / Re: The First Shot
« Last post by Andrew Mason on Today at 04:54:01 AM »
I think if JFK had been hit at Z190, that at least ONE of those SS agents should have seen JFK move at least a little bit and the SS agents would probably have reacted by Z207. So the Z190 1st shot theory is improbable.
First of all, we can’t see the agents very well because they are all in the doubly exposed sprocket area. We can’t really make out McIntyre behind Clint Hill until a full second after z190.

We can see that at z190 Paul Landis is looking forward right. By z212 he is looking downward left.  Jack Ready on the front right is holding onto the front handhold with his right hand until z198 and by z207 the right hand is down by his side and his body has turned right. He said he turned right immediately after the first shot. Both of those changes within about one second of z190 could be part of a reaction to the first shot. And let’s not forget the sudden right head turn of Rosemary Willis from z202-206….
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LEGEND - Edward Jay Epstein

Epstein's work is approximately 180 degrees removed from the currently prevailing Deep Politics theories, which is why he is dismissed as either a CIA dupe or disinformation agent.

Dear Fancy Pants Rants (FPR),

The thesis of Epstein's 1978 book, Legend: The Secret World of Lee Harvey Oswald, is that Marine U-2 radar operator Oswald may have been recruited by the KGB or the GRU in Japan in 1957 or 1958, and that KGB Major I mean Lt. Col. I mean Captain Yuri Nosenko was sent to the U.S. in February 1964 to obscure Oswald’s Soviet intelligence links -- links which J. Edgar Hoover, in the interest of self-preservation, smothered institutionally.

In Legend, Edward J. Epstein correctly "outed" Yuri Nosenko as not-a-true physical defector to the U.S. in February 1964 and disclosed that the FBI's beloved FEDORA (KGB Major Aleksey Kulak) was a Kremlin-loyal triple agent who had duped the Bureau for fifteen years.

Factoid: In 1976, FBI Senior Agent James Nolan conducted an investigation that determined that Kulak / FEDORA was fake. A few years later, counterintelligence-hating Senior Agent James Geer, with help from two CIA researchers, Sandra Grimes and Cynthia Hausmann, provided to him by a Nosenko-protecting probable mole by the name of Leonard V. McCoy, reverted Nolan's appraisal to the original mistaken one.

I say Nosenko was a "not-a-true defector" in 1964 because, although he was a false defector-in-place in Geneva in June 1962, sent there to protect at least one high-level KGB mole in the CIA, in February 1964 he was either a false defector or had "gone rogue" -- and used his putative "intel" on Oswald as his "ticket" to The Land of Milk and Honey.

Although Epstein's main source on Nosenko was Nosenko's former principal CIA case officer until October 1967, Tennent H. Bagley (who was on the fast track to become Director of CIA until Nosenko reappeared in Geneva in January 1964), Epstein seems to have been either a really poor listener or an embellisher par excellence.

To wit: He states Nosenko's self-described career history in the KGB as though it's factual, forgetting to mention that Bagley learned that very little of it, if any, was true.

-- Tom

PS The "mole" that Nosenko was protecting in June 1962 was probably James Angleton's confidant, mentor, and mole-hunting superior, Bruce Leonard Solie.

It sure would be nice if our resident (or should I say rezident?) genealogist and Wayback Machine social-pages-reader, Tom "A Beautiful Mind" Scully, would look into Solie and tell us about the man with the Russian-sounding name that was living with the Solies on their dairy farm when Bruce was an impressionable lad.
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MTG--

Yes, the COVID-19 tale confirms that government, even two governments (Beijing and Washington), and multiple agencies and actors can and did participate in a cover-up, and induced the mass and social media to not only participate in the cover-up, but to ridicule and even ban those who had alternative narratives.

Remember, some social media platforms banned commentary that a lab leak was responsible for the COVID-9 pandemic.

AI: Facebook and Instagram: In early 2020, Facebook explicitly classified "COVID-19 is man-made or manufactured" as a false claim to be removed. On May 26, 2021, Facebook ended this ban after consulting with public health experts.

Twitter (now X): Twitter also implemented COVID-19 misinformation policies early on, which initially restricted certain origin theories. Twitter later quietly lifted its COVID-19 misinformation enforcement in late 2022.

Other Platforms: Similar moderation strategies were used across networks like YouTube and TikTok, relying heavily on the World Health Organization consensus at the time.


---30---

The above is an ugly record of what can happen to the truth.

Although I believe the initial JFKAC was very limited, I believe there was a subsequent government cover-up, following President LBJ's diktat that LHO be found an LN. 

Not all CTs are alike. Some hold water.

Not all government narratives are truthful. Some are not.

4

Here is an interview with Chauncey Holt on YouTube...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3z5MgCG4COY

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Your frequent message formatting errors, grammatical errors, and punctuation errors suggest you're in no position to be deciding who is a scholar and who is not, much less to be making sweeping pronouncements about JFKA evidence and research.

As for your comment about motive, ask any prosecutor and they'll tell you that in a complex or strongly contested case, establishing motive is very important for the prosecution--both in identifying a suspect in the first place and in persuading a jury of guilt in a trial.

Ask any detective about motive, and they'll tell you that one of the main things they seek to establish is whether the suspect had a motive.  If they've identified two possible suspects and one suspect had no motive and the other suspect did have a motive, they will see the latter person as the more likely suspect, all other things being relatively equal.

I had to giggle when I read your first sentence (which you failed to punctuate correctly, but anyway. . . .):

LOL! Yeah, gee, why should they be objective?! Humm, maybe because being objective is a key principle of critical thinking? Maybe because being objective is a hallmark of credibility, education, and an open mind?

Perhaps you should change your forum name to John "I Don't Need No Stinkin' Objectivity" Corbett.

Huh, in reading the description of the book on Amazon, I find myself thinking I might just read it. It sounds like an interesting book, assuming he did in fact write it. I heard years ago that he'd written a book but never gave it a second thought.


Check it out... again, it has a ring of truth to it... Also, you might be able to pick up a video of Holt being interviewed...

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In a number of threads, people have brought up the fact that people in the motorcade smelled gunpowder as they were going past the GK. To that my reaction has always been SO WHAT. I think we can safely say no one fired a weapon on Elm St. so the people who got a whiff of gunpowder residue when they were on Elm St. give us no clue as to where that residue was discharged.

I've corrected you on this stuff before, but I see you're repeating it again.

Recap: One, the witnesses who smelled gunpowder said they smelled it on the grassy or near the knoll. Two, they indicated they smelled it very soon after the shooting, within less than about 1 minute after the shooting, judging from their accounts. Three, several witnesses also said they saw gun smoke coming from an area of the picket fence on the knoll. Four, a small cloud of apparent gun smoke can be seen in the Wiegman film hanging over a point on the grassy knoll. 

I thought of this following the recent assassination attempt on President Trump and some of the people smelled the gunpowder in the ballroom even though the assailant never discharged his weapon there. The residue that people smell can drift quite a distance from it's origin. This gives us no indication where that residue was discharged from.

You're talking about a case where the gunman fired inside a building with an air circulation system and fired only about 10-15 feet away from the ballroom entrance. It's not a bit surprising that some people in the ballroom could smell gunpowder, and, more important, the gunpowder did not "drift quite a distance" from its origin.

So any suggestion that the Trump assassination attempt implies that the gunpowder that Dealey Plaza witnesses smelled near/on the grassy knoll came from 60 feet up and 200-plus feet away is baseless.

". . . from it's origin"? You mean "from its origin." The possessive form of "it" is "its," not "it's." "It's" is a contraction of "It is." Sheesh, this is junior-high-level English.

I usually do not call attention to someone's apparent lack of education, but I'm making an exception in your case because of the arrogant and dismissive polemic that you use while making erroneous claims that prove you don't know what you're talking about.

You have no business starting threads unless they're only asking sincere questions.
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I will attempt to answer this seriously, without descending into the pathetically juvenile silliness that all too often characterizes my self-amusing contributions.  :D :D :D

I recalled this same discussion from the Ed Forum in 2018. Fred Litwin had listed the usual LN staples, and I added:

To [Fred's] list, I would add:

OSWALD'S GAME - Jean Davison
MARINA AND LEE - Priscilla Johnson McMillan
OSWALD'S TALE - Norman Mailer
OSWALD: RUSSIAN EPISODE - Ernst Titovets
LEGEND - Edward Jay Epstein

Yes, yes, I know, the first three at least are staples of the Lone Nut community.  (Epstein's work, of course, is approximately 180 degrees removed from the currently prevailing Deep Politics theories, which is why he is dismissed as either a CIA dupe or disinformation agent.)  I believe it is CRITICAL, before bogging down in minutiae and theories, to gain as much of an understanding as possible of WHO LEE HARVEY OSWALD REALLY WAS.  I would've saved myself a lot of time and money if I had taken that approach.


I still strongly agree with this. The biggest mistake anyone can make, in my opinion, is to dive into the conspiracy literature. You'll end up cross-eyed and confused, quite possibly beyond all redemption. I started with Best Evidence and High Treason, for God's sake. How I escaped, I'm still not entirely sure.

I would also strongly suggest that a newcomer spend some time in the psychological and sociological literature regarding the conspiracy-prone mindset. You might even recognize yourself, as I did! At a minimum, you will have a much better perspective when you dive into the conspiracy literature.

Readers Digest assigned author, Henry Hurt, according to a March, 1977 letter to President Carter by Billy Joe Lord, was pressuring Lord to cooperate with Readers Digest and author Hurt. The letter to Carter describe's Hurts advisor on how to threaten Lord's continued employment by Jim Allison, George Bush's friend and former congressional office staffer, a Midland newspaper publisher. The description matches Bush's closest friend, dating back to childhood summers in Maine, Fitzgerald "Gerry" Bemiss.

https://www.google.com/books/edition/The_China_Diary_of_George_H_W_Bush/jRvdwoKQOgQC?hl=en&gbpv=1&dq=china+bemis+devine&pg=PA311&printsec=frontcover


Quote
https://www.washingtonpost.com/archive/lifestyle/1989/08/15/bed-breakfast-a-la-bush/28b369d3-ff93-4bd4-9759-a220c45978f5/
BED BREAKFAST A LA BUSH
Aug 15, 1989 — ... W. Moseley, and childhood friend FitzGerald Bemiss -- to name a few. ... The Bushes invited Pettis and her husband, Ben Roberson, to stay with ... Bush's family has been spending summers at Kennebunkport since the ...

https://www.vanityfair.com/news/2006/09/bushes200609
43+41=84 |
Jun 4, 2008 — Is he George H. W. Bush or George W. Bush? ... From Washington to Houston to Kennebunkport and back, shaky second- and thirdhand ... When I ask FitzGerald Bemiss, one of 41's oldest friends from childhood summers in ...

Henry Hurt had a job teaching school in the town Bush and Bemiss summered in, all of their lives,
Kennebunkport. Hurt was about to marry Bemiss's cousin.

https://www.findagrave.com/memorial/88891802/langbourne-meade-williams

Quote
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Langbourne_Meade_Williams_Jr.
Langbourne Meade Williams Jr. (February 5, 1903 – September 8, 1994) was an American ... "He became president of Freeport-Texas with John Hay Whitney as chairman three years later. He then served as chairman from 1958 until 1967."





https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=9963#relPageId=175


Quote
AI Overview    +12                    The properties associated with businessman FitzGerald Bemiss and the Virginia Sky-Line Company are the historic lodges located along Skyline Drive in Shenandoah National Park.The Virginia Sky-Line Company, operated by Bemiss beginning in the 1950s, holds the concession for the park's iconic overnight properties:

From Billy Joe Lord's March, 1977 letter to recently sworn-in, President Carter :

https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=9963#relPageId=270


See:
https://www.jfkassassinationforum.com/index.php/topic,1439

What Henry Hurt does not tell Billy Joe Lord is that Bemiss is Hurt's wife's cousin or that her father, Hurt's father-in-law, is the brother of Freeport Sulphur Chairman, Langbourne Williams. Langbourne and Bemiss have the same grandfather.

Henry Hurt, by the time he published "Reasonable Doubt", had twenty years of advancement of research and new disclosures that Sylvia Meagher had no knowledge of in 1967.
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Did "The Deep State" kill JFK, or was it the "Administrative State"?

They're the same thing, right, self-described Leninist Steve Bannon?

(LOL)

Wouldn't it be ironic if self-described Marxist and former Marine sharpshooter Lee Harvey Oswald killed JFK for the same folks who made Trump our "president" in 2017, the world-class humanitarian organization known as the KGB (today's SVR and FSB)?

Could it be that the KGB, the Russian Mafia, and Putin's Oligarchs are the true "Deep State"?
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At the time the medical team looked at the wound, it was not known that the bullet had first hit JFK and yawed upon exiting.
A bit circular.  I thought you were arguing that the bullet was yawing because of what the doctors saw, not what they may have gathered from talking to others.   In any event, the concept that the torso was "nearly parallel with the flight of the bullet" must be based on the direction of the bullet not its orientation when it entered.
10
We know that the bullet did not come from the west end of the TSBD. If the doctors were correct, that would mean that JBC was not hit at z225.  It was not until about z250 that his torso was aligned so that a shot from the SN would have struck him with his torso nearly parallel to the flight of the bullet.

The doctors were just going by the wounds and path of the bullet through the body they observed and the fact that the wrist was turned back facing the bullet.  That appears to be the basis for their agreement that the torso was turned right and was "nearly parallel with the flight of the bullet".

At the time the medical team looked at the wound, it was not known that the bullet had first hit JFK and yawed upon exiting. That wasn't known even by January when they were interviewed. The SBT had not yet been formulated. It is understandable that they would think the bullet made a tangential entry since that would be the more common reason for such an elongated wound.
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