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Dang, Big Boy Burnham and Hollywood McBride are getting themselves butthurt over there, Talkin ‘Tippitt Blues and such.  lol.   how old are these people ?

Your turn to report next, Albert.  That’s your Alma mater, as if it maters.
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JFK Assassination Discussion & Debate / Re: Acoustic Evidence
« Last post by John Corbett on Today at 05:16:48 PM »
This is no reason to reject the acoustical evidence. Even if we assume the Zapruder film is pristine and ignore all the scientific evidence of alteration, the acoustical evidence does not require us to believe that the dictabelt recorded all the shots that were fired during the assassination, as the HSCA's acoustical scientists themselves explained. Thus, the alleged inability to sync the dictablet with the Zapruder film cannot logically invalidate the acoustical evidence.

Got any PLAUSIBLE explanations for why the Dictabelt only recorded SOME of the shots? That implies that there were MORE than 4 shots, yet the consensus among the witnesses was still that there were only three.
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It certainly cannot explain the scientifically proven presence of gunfire N-waves and gunfire windshield distortions on the dictabelt; nor can it explain the amazing timing-movement correlations between the dictabelt's impulse patterns and the test-firing impulse patterns identified by the BBN scientists, correlations that were so powerful that even the NRC/NAS panel admitted there was 93% probability they occurred because the dictabelt recorded gunfire in Dealey Plaza during the shooting.

By "scientifically proven", you mean asserted emphatically.
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Some might wonder why Moore's version of the SBT has not been accepted by very many WC apologists.

Nothing to wonder about. Moore's version was FUBAR as was most of his analysis. It's almost as bad as yours.
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That's a good question, and the answer says a lot about the lone-gunman camp.

Yes it does. It says we know how to weigh evidence in a way that makes sense.
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For one thing, Moore's book, first published in 1990 (and reprinted in 2018),

It got reprinted? Why? That makes as much sense as making a sequel to Ishtar.
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did not receive the gushing endorsements and widespread promotion from legacy news media outlets that Posner's error-riddled book Case Closed received when it was published in 1993. Many amateur WC apologists who post in online JFKA discussion forums have either never heard of Moore's book or have never read it.

Posner's book wasn't exactly worthy of a Pulitzer, even though it was a finalist. He made some contributions but there were some flaws as well.  There was a good deal of  BS: in that book as well.

The best defense of the WCR of course is Vincent Bugliosi's Reclaiming History. Not only did it give a full throated defense of the WCR, it completely demolished all the popular myths that had gained popularity up until the time it was published. Of course new myths keep popping up which Reclaiming History couldn't have addressed.
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Most WC apologists who have read Moore's book, or who at least know about his version of the SBT, don't accept his SBT because it poses some serious problems for the most popular version of the SBT, i.e., the Z221-224. I suspect that some of them reject Moore's SBT for the additional reasons (1) that Moore's explanation for the Tague wounding contradicts Posner's and Max Holland's explanations, and (2) that it also requires the pavement bullet to do double duty by assuming the bullet not only sent a fragment streaking toward the Tague curb but sent pieces of concrete and possibly metal streaking toward JFK starting at Z187.

The only part of that which Moore got right is the POSSIBILITY the missed shot ricocheted off the pavement and continued down range to injure Tague. There is simply no proof of what injured Tague. Just guesswork.
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I know one of the reasons that many WC apologists don't like Moore's SBT is that Moore frankly admits that the pre-Z224 bunched-clothing theory is ridiculous on its face and that it is refuted by hard photographic evidence. Moore correctly observes that the only time JFK's coat and shirt were markedly bunched was the timeframe between Z225 and Z237. He contends that the coat and shirt were bunched enough from Z225-237 to account for the low location of the rear bullet holes and for the back wound's location several inches higher. This is actually a plausible argument, but most SBT believers reject it because their SBT requires a Z221-224 magic-bullet hit. 

That is one of the least flaws in Moore's book. I'm embarrassed to admit that as a newbie, I actually gave Moore's book some credence at the time. The WCR took the one correct lane for explaining the JFKA. That meant any alternative explanation could not be correct. There is only one truth and the WC beat everyone to it.
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Moore believes that JFK's Z200-237 reactions were in response to being sprayed by concrete chips and possibly metal fragments that were sent flying by the bullet that hit the pavement near the limo, and that the SBT hit occurred at Z237.

A silly hypothesis that I once gave more credence to than it deserved.
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This brings us to another reason that most WC apologists don't accept Moore's SBT: To his great credit, Moore views as decisive Connally's selection of Z234 as the moment of impact, and he freely acknowledges that Connally's right shoulder is forcefully driven downward starting in Z238. He posits that the impact occurred at Z237, but he allows that Connally may have been correct and that Z234 is the earliest Connally could have been hit. These credible, science-based, and photographically confirmed arguments are wholly unacceptable to published WC apologists and amateur lone-gunman theorists alike because they destroy the Z221-224 SBT.

That shows Moore was not very good at applying critical thinking to the available evidence. JBC was simply wrong about when he was hit because he based his belief on when he made his secondary reaction to having been shot, a reaction which followed his immediate reflexive action of flipping his right arm into the air which he did 3-4 frames after he was shot. Connally wasn't far off. He was hit about 2/3 of a second before he thought he had been hit.
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Is it the guy I've circled in yellow?



     This is exactly why it is vital to view the Entire Bell Film/Wiegman Snippet. No cropping, no chopping, no giffing. On the (R) we see a Bench. Directly Below that Bench are Steps. Directly Below those Steps is the Knoll Grass. Wiegman's legs/feet are on the very same level as that Knoll Grass. He is on that Knoll Grass. He is Not sprawled across the Steps. Wiegman is Facing (W) toward the bottom of the Zapruder Perch. Wiegman is running/stumbling (W) across the Top portion of the Knoll Grass.
     At some point, Wiegman has to arrive (W) of the street light pole to then be standing next to the Newman Family. From where we see Wiegman on the Bell Film, what route does he take to arrive at the bottom of the Knoll and stand next to the Newman Family? Is the claim being made here that from the point we see Wiegman on the Bell Film, he then ran diagonally across the Knoll in order to arrive at the bottom of the Knoll and stand next to the Newman Family? That route would be contrary to the route we see him taking on the Couch Film. Wiegman had to of run (W) across the upper portion of the Knoll grass, in the direction of the bottom of the Zapruder Perch, and then turned left and ran (S) down the Knoll. This is what we see Wiegman doing on the Couch Film. Running (S) DOWN the knoll, Wiegman was then (W) of the street light pole and standing alongside the Newman Family at the bottom of the Knoll.
     The old blurry Bell Film images were responsible for this old wives tale of Wiegman being sprawled across the steps as he filmed the Hester's. Technology has improved the Bell Film definition to the point that it is now clear that Wiegman was not sprawled across the steps. To the contrary, the Bell Film now clearly shows Wiegman to Not being physically on the steps in any manner.
     Some of you are shocked to discover that what you cavalierly accepted as being a fact, is nothing but a 62+ yr old JFK Assassination Urban Legend. You need to accept that Technology is solving this case as it disproves 1 JFK Assassination Urban Legend at a time.     
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The image isn't doctored...This will be proven by obtaining the original Darnell film and showing the exact same plaid pattern on the original film...People who claim alteration where there was no alteration (Sandy Larsen) condemn themselves to Cinque land...

Larsen's image was better than Kamp's and I assume Larsen somehow got the original or accessed technology that was better able to resolve the current copy...The image Larsen used for his analysis zoomed closer in to the plaid and managed to capture the exact alternating red, black, white, and brown plaid bars and their uniqueness and then perfectly match them to the bars seen on Lovelady's plaid in other photos...The match was perfect and was proof beyond a doubt...Proof that shows you and Royell are full of it...When I told Larsen that he had therefore indirectly proven the time that Frazier said he was standing and staring in shock at Sarah Stanton by locating Lovelady & Shelley fast-walking up the extension Larsen went back and deleted his Education Forum thread containing the photo analysis of Lovelady's plaid bars...There is nothing too low for the clique on The Education Forum and they always get to rule on themselves and their own rank dishonesty...Iler is now enforcing that corruption and has the nerve to do it under a so-called strict set of rules...Jim DiEugenio is the Trump-like leader of that clique who managed to parlay that sordid corruption all the way to the point of presenting a knowingly-false Prayer Man theory before Congress...

Just to show how dishonest The Education Forum is the clique doesn't speak up and admit Larsen's original photo analysis or his dishonest deletion of it...And those people are judging ME!...You'll never see the rank hypocrite Mark Knight comment on this business or its significance in regard to The Education Forum's so-called purpose and rules...Knight is too busy banning for life the researcher who discovered the conspiracy evidence discovery of our generation on false rules violation charges...And the clique doesn't mind...
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The acoustics are wrong because the shots don't match up either way. I believe in a conspiracy, but the data is incorrect.

This is no reason to reject the acoustical evidence. Even if we assume the Zapruder film is pristine and ignore all the scientific evidence of alteration, the acoustical evidence does not require us to believe that the dictabelt recorded all the shots that were fired during the assassination, as the HSCA's acoustical scientists themselves explained. Thus, the alleged inability to sync the dictablet with the Zapruder film cannot logically invalidate the acoustical evidence.

It certainly cannot explain the scientifically proven presence of gunfire N-waves and gunfire windshield distortions on the dictabelt; nor can it explain the amazing timing-movement correlations between the dictabelt's impulse patterns and the test-firing impulse patterns identified by the BBN scientists, correlations that were so powerful that even the NRC/NAS panel admitted there was 93% probability they occurred because the dictabelt recorded gunfire in Dealey Plaza during the shooting.

So the idea that Connally's dramatic shoulder drop in Z238-242 is a "delayed reaction" to a hit at Z222-224 is unreasonable and unscientific. Jim Moore, one of the most honest WC apologists around, freely acknowledges the sharp right shoulder drop in Z238-242 . He theorizes that JFK's arm and hand movements in Z224-237 are in response to being hit with bits of concrete and/or metal from the bullet that hit the pavement behind the limo, and that the alleged SBT hit occurs at Z237:

Governor Connally himself studied the Zapruder film and picked frame 234 as the moment of the bullet’s impact upon his back. In the film itself, less than a third of a second after Connally says he was hit, one can see the dramatic effect of the bullet’s impact. Between frames 237 and 238, the bullet strike is evident as the Governor’s right shoulder collapses, his cheeks suddenly puff, and his hair is disarranged. Indeed, between the two frames, the slope of the Governor’s right shoulder suddenly drops by about twenty degrees. . . .

The problem Dr. Lattimer, the Warren Commission and HSCA investigators share is the sudden drop of Connally’s right shoulder at frames 237-238. Portions of the human frame don’t suddenly drop 20 degrees without some significant outside force acting upon them. And, when you consider that this shoulder drop took place within an eighteenth of a second, that outside force must have been very significant indeed. Impact on the Governor’s back, then, most likely took place at Zapruder frame 237. Interestingly enough, Connally’s doctors also reviewed the Zapruder film and placed the moment of impact at about frame 236. . . .

I believe that President Kennedy shared Tague’s experience. Doubtless the bullet hitting the concrete only a few feet from the President showered President Kennedy with bits of concrete and possibly metal fragments. . . .

Pelted or forcibly struck by bits of concrete and metal, he lived the next two seconds in a daze. His right arm, which had been waving to the Elm Street crowd, froze in place. By the time he emerged from behind the road sign and back into Zapruder’s view, his hands were rising to cover his face. (Conspiracy of One: The Definitive Book on the Kennedy Assassination, 2018 edition, pp. 167-169, 197-198)


This is actually the least ridiculous version of the SBT that has been offered by WC apologists. Of course, it, too, is fatally flawed because of the conflicting trajectories, because of the narrow wound path through Connally's chest, because of the wound-ballistics evidence that CE 399 could not have done all the damage required by the SBT, and because of the disclosures that the back wound had no exit point, that there was no hole in the tie and no nick on the tie knot's left or right edge, and that the back wound was well below the throat wound, etc.

However, at least this version of the SBT offers a non-ludicrous explanation for JFK's Z200-237 reaction, offers a non-ludicrous explanation for the location of the rear JFK clothing holes, and acknowledges the obvious implications of the Z238-242 right shoulder drop.

Some might wonder why Moore's version of the SBT has not been accepted by very many WC apologists. That's a good question, and the answer says a lot about the lone-gunman camp.

For one thing, Moore's book, first published in 1990 (and reprinted in 2018), did not receive the gushing endorsements and widespread promotion from legacy news media outlets that Posner's error-riddled book Case Closed received when it was published in 1993. Many amateur WC apologists who post in online JFKA discussion forums have either never heard of Moore's book or have never read it.

Most WC apologists who have read Moore's book, or who at least know about his version of the SBT, don't accept his SBT because it poses some serious problems for the most popular version of the SBT, i.e., the Z221-224. I suspect that some of them reject Moore's SBT for the additional reasons (1) that Moore's explanation for the Tague wounding contradicts Posner's and Max Holland's explanations, and (2) that it also requires the pavement bullet to do double duty by assuming the bullet not only sent a fragment streaking toward the Tague curb but sent pieces of concrete and possibly metal streaking toward JFK starting at Z187.

I know one of the reasons that many WC apologists don't like Moore's SBT is that Moore frankly admits that the pre-Z224 bunched-clothing theory is ridiculous on its face and that it is refuted by hard photographic evidence. Moore correctly observes that the only time JFK's coat and shirt were markedly bunched was the timeframe between Z225 and Z237. He contends that the coat and shirt were bunched enough from Z225-237 to account for the low location of the rear bullet holes and for the back wound's location several inches higher. This is actually a plausible argument, but most SBT believers reject it because their SBT requires a Z221-224 magic-bullet hit. 

Moore believes that JFK's Z200-237 reactions were in response to being sprayed by concrete chips and possibly metal fragments that were sent flying by the bullet that hit the pavement near the limo, and that the SBT hit occurred at Z237.

This brings us to another reason that most WC apologists don't accept Moore's SBT: To his great credit, Moore views as decisive Connally's selection of Z234 as the moment of impact, and he freely acknowledges that Connally's right shoulder is forcefully driven downward starting in Z238. He posits that the impact occurred at Z237, but he allows that Connally may have been correct and that Z234 is the earliest Connally could have been hit. These credible, science-based, and photographically confirmed arguments are wholly unacceptable to published WC apologists and amateur lone-gunman theorists alike because they destroy the Z221-224 SBT.
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Zapruder and Sitzman in early Couch stabilized GIF

I made a stabilized gif from the Couch film wherein Beatrice Hester stands, Dave Wiegman stands from the cement steps and makes a run towards the Newman family, taking about 4 seconds(~90 frames). The full animation is over 14MB so I can only post a heavily cropped version. As I viewed my work I spotted what must be Zapruder after he turned back to Sitzman from his easterly walk. They stand outside the shelter for a few seconds and then begin to enter the shelter in the last few frames of the film sequence. Their upper bodies are masked by low foliage of the Cedar Elm tree near the Thornton sign. The stabilization makes their presence known.




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What does any of this have to do with the question of who shot JFK.
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Here's a stabilized GIF of Wiegman stumbling, bumbling and doing cartwheels across the knoll!!
But seriously, we can see a stationary Wiegman laying across the steps who then starts to get up and for reference we can see an actual moving man as the cameraman in the lower right enters the frame.



JohnM

Just fantastic work John.
It is possible to discern Weigman hurriedly reaching into his pocket with his left hand as he turns from the Hesters and begins to get up.
Using the method laid out earlier in this thread it is possible to put a timestamp on Weigman in the Bell film beginning to get up - 19 seconds.
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Going by the blur analysis and witness testimony there were 4 shots with the last two almost simultaneously.

There is a definite blur at Z318 for the head shot that would have been fired in the Z310-311 window. If you believe the final two shots were nearly simultaneous, wouldn't the blur be almost simultaneous? If that is the case, what evidence do you have for a two neaarly simultaneous shots?
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Oswald was a political kook.  He had demonstrative a willingness to commit a political assassination with Walker.  That is a big step separating him from 99% of other loons.  Oswald selected Walker because of his right-wing views and he was a target of opportunity because he lived in Dallas.  JFK was largely a target of opportunity because he literally came to Oswald.  Oswald did not select him.  JFK, as president of the United States, literally drove by Oswald's place of employment in an open car.  Oswald must have thought he was the luckiest guy in the world.  The opportunity to kill the head of the political system that he despised dropped right into his lap.

 Thank you
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