JFK Assassination Forum

It was one of Groden's ex-wives that stole some things. It's hard to tell exactly what she took, but she did take some stuff. It would be nearly impossible to take everything he has. Groden has 4 storage units and a house full of stuff. At one point he owned the house next door to him and used it exclusively for storage, but had to sell the house when he became short on money and had to move everything into his house he lives in.

For example, he has about 4 or 5 big tote boxes of photos he took on the set of "JFK" in 1991. He probably has around 5,000 photos just from the JFK movie.

   If you have not done this already, You need to volunteer your services to compile an inventory of the Groden stuff that is currently spread all over hell's half acre. This can be on paper and/or filmed. Summer should give you the needed time to at least begin this. It would also go well with the Groden Bio your are currently working on.

read much?

Once again, you talk out of two sides of your mouth.

There is no sound on any film. You are backing into your a preset conclusion with no basis of fact.
You said witnesses cannot be relied on and are often times wrong. How do you know JBC was correct about when he turned?
He disputed the SBT directly. You cherry pick what you want.

As I explained earlier, JBC knew he had been hit by the second shot. His objection to the SBT was that he believed JFK had been hit by the first shot. That's why he refused to believe the SBT. In later years when asked if they could have been both hit by the second shot, he said it was a possibility. In fact if JFK was hit by the second shot (which he was) and JBC was correct that he was hit by the second shot (he was), the SBT is not only a possibility, it is a certainty.

Phil Willis took his number 5 picture when he heard a shot. That was about Z-frame 202.

It makes no sense that Oswald would have taken a shot through the tree at Z202 when his target would come into the clear a half second later.

Willis wouldn't have known which frame he snapped his picture, so somebody apparently synced his photo to the Z-film. If it Willis' photo was taken at or about Z202, Willis would have heard a the second shot one second later which is close enough for him to think it happened at the same time. The other possibility is that Willis conflated photo 5 with photo 4 and he actually heard the first shot at the time of the first shot. I seriously doubt that Willis was counting his pictures as he was taking them. In any case, it's silly to belkeve Oswald would fire a shot through the tree when all he had to do was wait another half second before he would have a clear line of sight.

Hugh Betzner took his number 3 picture and was winding his camera when he heard the same shot.

If he was winding his camera when he heard the shot, how does that establish which frame of the Z-film he heard that shot?

Sam Holland, was on the bridge. He heard the same shot when JFK reached for his brow. That occurs about Z-204.

JFK was not reaching for his brow at Z202. He had been waving to the spectators on his right and was starting to lower his hand by that time. That motion continued until he was behind the sign when the second shot was fired. Are we supposed to believe that Sam Holland could tell exactly where JFK's hand was at the time of the shot from his vantage point on the overpass?

Look at Betzner 3 and Willis 5 - see where the car is between two pictures. WC wouldn't. Look at "Black Dog Man" in both pictures.
A human figure taken with 2 different cameras - both oddly without any flesh tone or distinct characteristics. (a black man huh?)
[/quote]
Gee, it couldn't have been that he was standing in the shadows.

Rosemary told the HSCA: Ms. Willis stated that she was present with her father and a sister in the area of the grass section of the plaza at
the time of the Presidential motorcade on November 22, 1963. The other was a person who was standing just behind the
concrete wall near the triple underpass. "That person appeared to "disappear the next instant."

Oh that's some real compelling evidence.

How do you know when Rosemary Willis stopped and why?

I can see her stop and look back toward the TSBD. The rest requires the ability to add 2 + 2.

She ran ahead of the limo - how do you know she
wasn't looking back for the car. Her father told Shaw Trial he called her name - How do you know she didn't turn for that ?
She stopped for a shot. - When was the shot? You don't know. Witnesses are often wrong (but only when you want).

I don't know why she stopped. Put in the context of the other evidence we have, it fits that she was looking back to where it seemed the sound of gunfire came from. In Altgens 6, the two SS agents on the right running board of the Queen Mary are seen looking back toward the TSBD. I don't know why they did that but I think I could make a pretty good guess.

  Your time line isn't proof of anything
Interesting, she actually stops short right around z- frame 200.

That is less than two seconds from the time she started to slow down. That seems like a reasonable amount of time for her to come to a complete stop before she turned toward the TSBD.

WC defenders have no choice but to claim the evidence points to Lee regardless of any direct conflicts.

There is no forensic evidence that conflicts with the conclusion Oswald was the assassin. That all points to him. It's inevitable that conclusion is going to conflict with some of the eyewitness testimony because that body of evidence conflicts with itself. There is no way to reach any conclusion that doesn't conflict with what somebody has said.

Such as?

read much?

Once again, you talk out of two sides of your mouth.

There is no sound on any film. You are backing into your a preset conclusion with no basis of fact.
You said witnesses cannot be relied on and are often times wrong. How do you know JBC was correct about when he turned?
He disputed the SBT directly. You cherry pick what you want.

Phil Willis took his number 5 picture when he heard a shot. That was about Z-frame 202.
Hugh Betzner took his number 3 picture and was winding his camera when he heard the same shot.
Sam Holland, was on the bridge. He heard the same shot when JFK reached for his brow. That occurs about Z-204.

Look at Betzner 3 and Willis 5 - see where the car is between two pictures. WC wouldn't. Look at "Black Dog Man" in both pictures.
A human figure taken with 2 different cameras - both oddly without any flesh tone or distinct characteristics. (a black man huh?)
Rosemary told the HSCA: Ms. Willis stated that she was present with her father and a sister in the area of the grass section of the plaza at
the time of the Presidential motorcade on November 22, 1963. The other was a person who was standing just behind the
concrete wall near the triple underpass. "That person appeared to "disappear the next instant."

How do you know when Rosemary Willis stopped and why? - She ran ahead of the limo - how do you know she
wasn't looking back for the car. Her father told Shaw Trial he called her name - How do you know she didn't turn for that ?
She stopped for a shot. - When was the shot? You don't know. Witnesses are often wrong (but only when you want).

  Your time line isn't proof of anything. It is no more valid than what is written above.

Such as?Since all the forensic evidence points to Oswald and nobody else, Oswald deniers have no choice but to claim it's the evidence that is invalid.

WC defenders have no choice but to claim the evidence points to Lee regardless of any direct conflicts.

Yes one can pick and choose which ones they like which is what most conspiracy theories are based on. I choose to let the forensic evidence tell me which ones to like. It gives me a much clearer picture of what happened.

There is nothing forensic or even valid in cherry-picking witness statements to a pretext while ignoring corroborated conflicts.

If this were a game of Clue, the winning answer would be Oswald did it with the Carcano from the TSBD.

broken evidence short of proof.

...and you can pick and choose the ones you like.
  that's what you do.

Yes one can pick and choose which ones they like which is what most conspiracy theories are based on. I choose to let the forensic evidence tell me which ones to like. It gives me a much clearer picture of what happened.

If this were a game of Clue, the winning answer would be Oswald did it with the Carcano from the TSBD.