JFK Assassination Forum

Are we supposed to believe that after his encounter with Baker, Oswald took his tan shirt off, walked past Reid with just the white t-shirt, then put it back on when he got on the bus and was spotted wearing the tan shirt by his former landlady.


Why shouldn’t we believe that? It seems to go together with LHO’s apparent behavior when seen running away from the scene near the Patton and 10th street intersection. (Ditching the white jacket so his appearance would be different due to his then wearing the brown shirt and hopefully making him harder to track.) This is also similar to what “The Fugitive” did on TV that LHO reportedly liked to watch. After shots were fired in Dealey Plaza, LHO did literally become a fugitive. That explanation makes perfect sense to me.

My thoughts exactly, Oswald's later behaviour with the jacket shows where his mind was, the thought of the spendthrift Oswald discarding a perfectly good jacket easily demonstrates that Oswald would do whatever it took to evade capture.

I've seen some persuasive arguments that Oswald was wearing his white T-shirt when he was shooting from the 6th floor and then Oswald put on his brown shirt when seen by Baker and then it makes sense that Oswald who would have been a bit apprehensive after being seen by the Law, simply wrapped his shirt around his waist when seen by Reid, much like the following image and to be honest, at first I didn't even notice the shirt around her waist!



To better visualize the Reid encounter, Oswald was seen by Reid going through the door, pic 27 and they crossed paths at the hand written "XR".



JohnM

It is simply imprecise. JBC described how he remembered reacting to being shot and the frame he believed he was struck at. What he didn't recall was his immediate initial reflexive and involuntary response when he flipped his injured right arm in reaction to having his wrist shattered. He wasn't even aware of his wrist injury until he came out of surgery.

JBC believed he was facing straight ahead when he was hit by the second shot and looking at the Z-film frames, he saw he reached that forward facing position at Z230, The Z-film actually shows he was hit about a half second earlier as evidenced by the jacket bulge at Z224 and the arm flip which began att Z226.

My point is that LNs have convinced themselves that JBC is reacting to his torso wound by z230 without looking at the evidence first - just by watching the zfilm.

LP:

Evidently you contend you know more about Inspector Sawyer saw and did on 11.22 than Sawyer himself, and as he testified under oath to the WC. 

Well, hubris is sometimes a trait of CT'ers and LNT'ers.

I think Trump knows exactly what he's doing. The term crazy-like-a-fox certainly applies to him. Trump has two modes, one political, one governing. On the campaign trail, he is a caricature. He resorts to hyperbole and exaggeration. I think he learned that from spending time with the McMahons and WWE. He saw how wrestlers drive people's emotions playing over-the-top caricatures. Both the good guys and the villains do that. Even people who believe pro wrestling is staged get caught up in it. I used to attend the WWE matches when they came to my hometown. I used to have fun guessing what the script would be. Wrestlers are not the same people when they are away from the ring and the TV cameras. Hulk Hogan used to have a reality TV show and when he was home, he wasn't Hulk Hogan. He was Terry. So it is with Trump. He is one guy at his rallies or in front of the TV cameras. When out of the spotlight, he is much more measured in the way he governs. It has worked well for him so far. Why would he change?

I agree with you that it remains to be seen what his legacy will be. That's why I still put Reagan #1 among the presidents in my lifetime. Trump could move into the top spot depending on what he accomplishes in the remainder of his term. I think that will largely depend on the results of the midterms.

You are spot on but I don't think the midterms matter.  My best guess is that the Dems take the House.  Perhaps it's not the massacre many predict but enough to flip it.  Trump has relied very little on congress even with republican majority.  The Dems will spend their time trying to impeach Trump.  They have no real policies except opposing Trump.  That is likely good news for Vance or Rubio in '28.  They can blame the Dems for spending their time undermining Trump over the next two years.  The Dems fall into the same trap over and over.  Their only objective is to oppose Trump.  They always overplay that hand.

LP--

No, I do not think Pat Speer, 60 years after the fact, engaging in unfounded speculation, is more accurate about what Inspector Sawyer saw and did on 11.22 than Sawyer himself, as captured in the January memo and then in his testimony under oath to the WC.

Ben, as collegially and respectfully as I can say this: It seems to me that you're digging in your heels on an issue that is a total loser.

The 1964 memo has essentially nothing to do with Sawyer. It is Shanklin telling Hoover what Malley told Shanklin that Batchelor had told Drain about what Sawyer supposedly was told by an unidentified individual. This sound suspiciously like the Telephone Game, in which "Shirley has a new poodle" becomes "Shirley shot her husband" by the fourth retelling in the chain. As far as I know, is this not the ONLY piece of evidence (to use the term loosely) that anyone reported a man with a rifle running out of the back of the TSBD?

Sawyer's WC testimony does not corroborate the memo AT ALL. He says nothing about the mystery man escaping the TSBD with a rifle. Nor, apparently, did he do so on 11-22 - to anyone. Doesn't this seem like a RATHER LARGE omission on his part? All he did at the WC was confirm the physical description he had phoned in.

WC'er Belin did not ask Sawyer about the man with the Winchester rifle, possibly as that was inconsistent with the LNT.

Belin's job was similar to that of a prosecuting attorney, to develop the strongest case possible against the LN defendant. We know what the WC's job was, as defined by LBJ. Come to a LN conclusion, not ties to Havana or Moscow.

So now you include in the equation that the WC "got to" Sawyer. Is that really how the WC transcript sounds? Sawyer was also informally interviewed by HSCA staff in 1978. Nothing about any mystery man here either: https://tangodown63.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/12/sawyer-hsca-1978.05.24.pdf.

It is public record that the 5' 10" 165 lbs white guy suspect description went out over DPD radio. Where did that description come from?

The CT community (and you?), contend it came from the Deep State. A planted description. 

Sawyer says he phoned it in to DPD, based on what a witness told him. I lean towards Sawyer being truthful in this regard. 

The witness who spoke the Sawyer may have been seeing things. Maybe not. No way to tell.

It clearly came from Brennan. Brennan was almost surely not in a position to provide such a detailed description, but he almost certainly did. This is an FBI report that summarizes what Sawyer said: https://tangodown63.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/12/fbi-105-82555-oswald-hq-file-section-224-excerpt.pdf.

For starters, there is nothing - zilch - about any mystery man running out of the back of the TSBD with a rifle.

Second, Sawyer says that when he got the physical description Forrest Sorrels was present. Sorrels was speaking to BRENNAN.

No, I don't believe the description was a plant. I think it's what Brennan told Sawyer and Sorrels. It's really just kind of a very generic description of a youngish, thinnish white guy.

I have extensive personal experience of people grossly overestimating the weight of thin white guys. When I was a serious runner, I carried 135-140 pounds on my 6-foot frame (now, alas, ballooned up to 160). People consistently estimated my weight at around 175. I was aghast. Fatties (i.e., most people) just have no clue as to what we ectomorphs actually weigh.

It seems to me this Sawyer stuff is going nowhere fast. One almost comical quadruple (or maybe quintuple) hearsay memo that apparently generated no further interest and is not backed up by anything Sawyer is known to actually have said becomes a "smoking gun."