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1
Dan is ignoring that those two are exactly where they are supposed to be according to testimony after leaving the steps...

There's no point getting bogged down with everything that is wrong with this post but this last observation needs addressing.
Apparently it's me, ands not Brian, who is ignoring the WC testimony of Shelley and Lovelady.
Let's start with the fact that BOTH MEN testify that they didn't leave the steps for at least three minutes!!
How can they be on the extension seconds after the shooting??
I would really like to hear what Brian is going to make up off the top of his head to account for this.

BOTH MEN testify that, after three minutes, Gloria comes up to the steps, tells them about the shooting after which both of them make their way across the Elm Street extension to the "little, old island" (both men use exactly the same phrase to describe the concrete spur separating the Elm Streets), where they stopped "for a minute".

So, the image of the two men walking down the extension is taken 20 - 25 seconds after the shooting.
In this short span of time, according to Brian, Gloria has made her way back to the TSBD steps, told everyone about the shooting, both men have made their way across to the little old island, hung around there for a while, then made it half way down the extension before being caught on film.
Let's do him a favour and ignore the three minutes it takes Gloria to reach the steps and the time spent on the little, old island.
Even if we ignore all the testimony that Brian seems so willing to do, is it still physically possible for the two men to be so far down the extension, after the sequence of events described, in such a short span of time?
Let's be ultra kind to Brian and make it like some mad kind of tag race  being run at top speed:
1] Gloria sprints full tilt and makes it back to the steps within 15 seconds
2] She spits out a rapid-fire account of the shooting in 5 seconds
3] Shelley and Lovelady sprint across to the little old island - 3 seconds.
4] They stay there for 5 seconds
5] They then sprint to their positions on the Elm Street extension - another 3 seconds.

They still don't make it in time.
Even if we follow Brian's lead and ignore nearly every statement they made in their WC testimonies, Shelley and Lovelady still don't make it.

The reason for this is obvious - it's not Shelley and Lovelady on the Elm Street extension.
In reality, what happens is this
Shelley and Lovelady are on the steps at the time of the shooting.
Immediately after the shots Shelley runs out to the concrete spur where he encounters a distraught Gloria Calvery running the other way.
Both return to the front steps where Gloria tells everyone there about the shooting after which both Shelley and Lovelady make their way into the building through the front door.

Gloria reaches the steps in a matter seconds - not 3 minutes.
Both men do not then go across to the little, old island.
Both men do not wander along the extension.
Both men do not hang around the railroad yards.
Both men do not enter the building through the west door.
These are all lies told to hide their actual movements after the shooting.

Both men immediately enter the building and make their way towards the back of the first floor where they are seen by Vickie Adams about 60 seconds after the shooting.
Seconds later Baker and Truly arrive at the elevators where Baker notices two white men just hanging around. Clearly this is Shelley and Lovelady.



The image above shows the moment Gloria has reached the steps and is telling everyone about the shooting.
The man in front of her is Billy Lovelady.
Shelley, wearing his baggy black suit, is near the bottom of the steps after returning from the concrete spur.



    BUMP
2
JFK Assassination Discussion & Debate / A question for Brian Doyle
« Last post by Brian Doyle on Today at 04:22:40 PM »
Just the opposite...I had recently finished Michael Collins Piper's book 'Final Judgment' when Tappy Wright came out with his claim that Jimi manager Michael Jeffery confessed to murdering Jimi...It was the Bahamian dirty money laundry offshore banks that made me realize the same pattern between Jimi's assassination and Kennedy's...When you follow the money those banks were of prime interest to the same CIA dirty money interests that influenced the Kennedy assassination...The fact Michael Jeffery was British Intelligence led to his knowledge of those banks and I suspect Jeffery wasn't stealing Jimi's money for himself but was following orders, instead, as part of an anti-communist black ops funding program...This would explain Jeffery's strange death in a mid-air plane collision where French Air Traffic Control was conveniently on strike...BCCI, Permindex - it is highly possible Jeffery was funneling Jimi's money in to those covert programs which explains the urgency to murder Jimi as well as Jeffery...

I'm the only person who realized the forensic evidence at Jimi's autopsy proved homicide when the correct timeline was inputted...I met Wecht and interviewed him on this...I'm also friends with the doctor who tried to save Jimi...This, of course, earns me elevated banning at The Education Forum - even though its is prime material and leads in the field...It strains credibility that CIA didn't know exactly what happened to Jimi and why...
3
While one is always entitled to engage in thought experiments, a thought experiment taking Vicki Adams' story at face value seems a stretch to me in light of the fact that Sandra Styles, her companion, always said she thought Vicki's time estimate was at least somewhat off and, more importantly, was adamant that Shelley and Lovelady were not there. Occam (or Ockham, if you prefer) tells me a more plausible thought experiment has Vicki conflating her and Styles' trip down the stairs with a slightly later encounter by her with Shelley and Lovelady when they reentered the TSBD. But, hey, that's just my and Occam's little thought experiment.

Bart Kamp summarizes what Styles repeatedly told Barry Ernest here: http://www.prayer-man.com/tsbd/sandra-styles/. Sean Murphy also followed up with her after Ernest's book came out. I also found a long discussion at Greg Parker's forum where the sentiment seemed to be that the "Shelley and Lovelady" question and answer had been fiendishly inserted into Vicki's actual WC testimony precisely to make it seem that she and Styles must have left the fourth floor window later than she thiought. Greg seemed to find this unlikely, and my thought experiment doesn't require any such shenanigans by the WC; in mine, the two cuties can have come down the stairs however quickly you like, with Vicki simply being a bit off as to when she saw Shelley and Lovelady.

(Lots of Sandra Styles' stuff for sale on eBay. Don't miss your chance: https://www.ebay.com/itm/175838680679. I may have got burnt on $1200 worth of Bogus Imposter Haygood autographs, but this Styles stuff is the real deal.)

   The "superior intellect" was duped into buying $1200 of "Bogus Imposter Haygood Autographs"?  WOWSER!
4
Royell continues to ignore the fact JBC suddenly flipped his right arm upward at the same frame JFK's arms started upward and immediately after that he dipped and turned dramatically to his right. These combined movements were made in rapid succession immediately following JBC getting shot.

     Within an extremely confined space, Gov Connally was beginning to "turn around" to his (R). Kinda like sitting in a armless chair, inside a phone booth, and attempting to "turn around" your upper torso in order to face the opposite direction.
5


Note how Secret Service Agent George Hickey, having heard what he thought was a firecracker, leans far over and looks down at the pavement starting around Z-145, about one second after Oswald's first, missing-everything shot at hypothetical "Z-124," half-a-second before Zapruder resumed filming at Z-133.

Note how Secret Service Agent Jack Ready, on the passenger side running board, leans over to his right and turns his head around during the same time frame, and how Secret Service Agent Glen Bennett, below him, leans over far to his right, too. (He said he started looking at JFK after the firecracker-like sound and that he saw a bullet hit him in the back.)

JFK turns his head quickly to his left starting in Z-144 and then turns it back to his right and starts waving to Mary Woodward and her three journalism colleagues around Z-175.

Governor Connally, having heard the first shot and recognized it as such, first turns his head quickly to his left starting in Z-150, and then turns it far to his right, starting in Z-164, to catch a glimpse of JFK over his right shoulder. However, JBC can't "see" JFK in Z-180 (etc.) because he has turned his head far to his right, too, and has raised his arm to wave to Wooward and Co., thereby obscuring his face from JBC's view.

 We have to find a larger copy of the film to actually see what you're referring to.  I have analyzed this film sprocket area for years, since its release by MPI in 1998, and I can honestly say that at no time have I ever seen SS agent Ready "leans over to his right and turns his head around during the same time frame".  Ready's position, when he first appears in the film, shows him looking to his left, then his head turns and he faces forward, and before he disappears from the Z film, he looks as if he's looking in Zapruder's direction. 
6
Andrew Iler has posted Bart Kamp's Prayer Man lecture at the 2023 Lancer Conference under the title "Best Content In the New JFK Media"...

He has done so while locking the thread from replies and creating new site rules that disallow any questioning of the administration's judgment...

This is the reforming of The Education Forum...

The Prayer Man theory is, of course, the biggest hoax theory to ever get legs in the JFK research community...This seals the hijacking of the JFK internet by the Prayer Man clique...

 This "reforming of The Education Forum", sounds a lot like the Socialist's/Nazi's seizing control of the Democrat Party.
7
Hickey describes the second two reports as "completely different in sound than the first report and were in such rapid succession that there seemed to be practically no time element between them." That doesn't sound to me like he was describing the second and third shots since those two came almost 5 seconds apart. "No time element between them" sounds like a description of a double sound produced by a single shot. If that is so, what Hickey described as the first shot would have actually been the second.  He estimated that the total elapsed time was about 5 seconds from the first shot he heard until the last. If  that is accurate, that's further indication he only heard the second and third shots and not the first. The sequence of events as he described them ar as follows:

1. Hickey first hears a shot.
2. Hickey looks to the right rear.
3. 2-3 seconds later, Hickey looks to JFK and sees his reaction to being shot.
4. Hickey hears a double sound and sees JFK was shot in the back of the head.

I can reconcile this account only if I believe he did not hear the first shot. The other way to reconcile it is that he got the sequence and timing of the events wrong.
Either is possible, but Hickey not hearing the first shot seems to be the more probable answer.

How could Hickey have not heard a nearby high-powered rifle shot at either "Z-124" or your beloved Z-148?

I've always heard, "Actions speak louder than words."

Regardless of the fact that he didn't remember doing it, why do you think Hickey started leaning over to look at the pavement in Z-146, even before your beloved jiggle-proved / misinterpreted-JBC-headturn-proved Z-148?
8

Because of the general dysfunction of the research community Pitzer was not explored as deeply as he should have been...


IOW, they didn't go deep enough into the rabbit hole.

You guys never cease to amuse me.
9
    There's a marked difference between "turning" and "turned around". Gov Connally was eventually fully facing JFK behind him. Gov Connally's upper torso had completely "turned around". Instead of facing the front bumper of the JFK Limo, he was facing the JFK Limo Trunk Lid. His upper torso had completely "turned around" as he faced JFK. You seem to believe it was easy for Gov Connally to "turned around" within the confines of his seated area. It was Not. Gov Connally had to dip his (R) shoulder in order for his upper torso to "turned around" and go face-to-face with JFK behind him. The space between Gov Connally's jump seat and the side of the JFK Limo was extremely minimal. It was difficult for Gov Connally to "turned around" to his (R) and eventually have his upper torso come Face-To-Face with JFK behind him.

Royell continues to ignore the fact JBC suddenly flipped his right arm upward at the same frame JFK's arms started upward and immediately after that he dipped and turned dramatically to his right. These combined movements were made in rapid succession immediately following JBC getting shot.
10
The overpressure that would result in the witnessed brain splatter is of such a force that the intact brain in evidence would be impossible by science...Paul O'Connor said the remaining brain in Kennedy's head was small enough to fit in the palm of a hand...It would be impossible for this remnant brain to weigh above an average brain...Bugliosi equivocated around it but never answered this...

Obviously the swapped brain had to be gotten rid of because the plotters realized it would expose the conspiracy...

Obviously, we have another unqualified amateur hack weighing in on the medical evidence citing another unqualified amateur hack who witnessed the autopsy. I could offer my own 2 cents regarding the medical evidence, but I prefer to leave those judgements to the professionals who had the training and experience to do that.
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