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JFK Assassination Discussion & Debate / Re: The First Shot
« Last post by Zeon Mason on Today at 07:56:57 PM »This thread has convinced me at least that it is not only just possible but reasonably probable that an MC rifle could have been fired 3 times in less than 7 seconds and that JFK and JC were hit at Z233 and JFK was hit at Z313 AND the shots could be in the pattern of 1…..2.3 as per 75% witness recall.
The 1st shot as a hit at Z233 fits much closer than either the Z190 1st shot idea by Andrew Mason or the LN 1st shot which missed theory at Z-140 or earlier.
The criticisms of a Z223 1st shot seem to be:
A The shooter would not have waited until Z224 to try a 1st shot
B. SS agent Hickey moving at Z143 is indication he heard a rifle preceding Z233.
C. The shooter having scored the head shot at Z312 would not have fired a 3rd shot 2 secs after Z312.
D. The Willis girl stopped running completely by Z200 therefore a shot must have been fired before Z223.
IMO, these criticisms are not well supported and presume that the reactions of the Willis girl and SS agent Hickey were due to the sound of a rifle shot vs some other stimulus.
So Imo Dan has presented a logical and plausible 3 shot scenario which fits with witness perception of last 2 shots fired rapidly and all 3 shots in as little as 6 secs. This fits closer with Harold Norman’s 4-5 sec recollection than any other proposal offered by LNs imo. It explains lack of awareness of SS agents prior to Z207.
The 1st shot as a hit at Z233 fits much closer than either the Z190 1st shot idea by Andrew Mason or the LN 1st shot which missed theory at Z-140 or earlier.
The criticisms of a Z223 1st shot seem to be:
A The shooter would not have waited until Z224 to try a 1st shot
B. SS agent Hickey moving at Z143 is indication he heard a rifle preceding Z233.
C. The shooter having scored the head shot at Z312 would not have fired a 3rd shot 2 secs after Z312.
D. The Willis girl stopped running completely by Z200 therefore a shot must have been fired before Z223.
IMO, these criticisms are not well supported and presume that the reactions of the Willis girl and SS agent Hickey were due to the sound of a rifle shot vs some other stimulus.
So Imo Dan has presented a logical and plausible 3 shot scenario which fits with witness perception of last 2 shots fired rapidly and all 3 shots in as little as 6 secs. This fits closer with Harold Norman’s 4-5 sec recollection than any other proposal offered by LNs imo. It explains lack of awareness of SS agents prior to Z207.
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JFK Assassination Discussion & Debate / Re: The Forgotten Rifle Test: The HSCA's Rifle Test
« Last post by Zeon Mason on Today at 07:18:57 PM »@MTG: the older experimental shooting using the 30ft tower and stationary targets seems to suggest it was no easy feat what the TSBD shooter achieved ( if he is the only shooter)with a hit at Z312.
However a few of the CBS time trial shooters managed to score 2 hits ( albeit not head) in less than 6 secs. And ONE of them ( the old engineer) seems to have scored 3 hits in 5.1 secs according to the video narrator.
However…
IDK if they really did score hits on the target or not because there was no zoomed in camera on the target to show holes appearing nearly simultaneous with the rifle firing.
Also because they used a RED silhouette on a square black ( or dark blue) target that was on a WHITE track, the result is not quite conclusive as those things may have aided the shooters to easier track.
Question: Was the ONE CBS shooter apparently scoring 3 hits in 5.1 seconds (recorded by camera firing an MC rifle and using zeroed functional scope), ever brought before the HSCA and interviewed personally or asked to repeat his shooting feat with an HSCA group of observers in real time ?
If not then at best the CBS experiment imo only proves that a person can fire an MC rifle 3 times in less than 6 seconds.
Is this enough to establish that the TSBD shooter could NOT possibly have fired the MC rifle in less than 7 secs and scored a body hit at Z233 and a head shot at Z312 and in the 1…..2..3 pattern that 75% witness recall?
Given Dan O’mearas theory that the 3 shot sequence from a TSBD 6th floor shooter begins with the 1st shot as a hit at Z233 and the 2nd shot then 4.8 secs later at Z312, and then the 3rd shot could have been fired as fast as 2 secs later, if not aimed, then it IS possible to replicate the 1….2..3 pattern in 6.5 seconds.
If this assassination was a pre planned shooting to be performed by an expert solitary shooter , then choosing Dealey Plaza as arena , the TSBD 6th floor as the platform, and a moving target situation , is NOT what professional hit man ( or team) would likely do. It’s introducing too many variables.
The simple more easy way with less variables would be to select an arena where JFK is standing on a podium giving a speech. And elevation of the shooter nearly at same elevation as the podium. A single FMJ 6.5 or 7.62 bullet laced with cyanide fired at only about 1200 ft /sec velocity ( subsonic ammo) with rifle with a suppressor , would not have been heard at all.
One shot one kill, no rifle left behind , shooter has easier escape.
So if a conspiracy why did the shooter ( or2) choose Dealey Plaza and the TSBD 6th floor ?
However a few of the CBS time trial shooters managed to score 2 hits ( albeit not head) in less than 6 secs. And ONE of them ( the old engineer) seems to have scored 3 hits in 5.1 secs according to the video narrator.
However…
IDK if they really did score hits on the target or not because there was no zoomed in camera on the target to show holes appearing nearly simultaneous with the rifle firing.
Also because they used a RED silhouette on a square black ( or dark blue) target that was on a WHITE track, the result is not quite conclusive as those things may have aided the shooters to easier track.
Question: Was the ONE CBS shooter apparently scoring 3 hits in 5.1 seconds (recorded by camera firing an MC rifle and using zeroed functional scope), ever brought before the HSCA and interviewed personally or asked to repeat his shooting feat with an HSCA group of observers in real time ?
If not then at best the CBS experiment imo only proves that a person can fire an MC rifle 3 times in less than 6 seconds.
Is this enough to establish that the TSBD shooter could NOT possibly have fired the MC rifle in less than 7 secs and scored a body hit at Z233 and a head shot at Z312 and in the 1…..2..3 pattern that 75% witness recall?
Given Dan O’mearas theory that the 3 shot sequence from a TSBD 6th floor shooter begins with the 1st shot as a hit at Z233 and the 2nd shot then 4.8 secs later at Z312, and then the 3rd shot could have been fired as fast as 2 secs later, if not aimed, then it IS possible to replicate the 1….2..3 pattern in 6.5 seconds.
If this assassination was a pre planned shooting to be performed by an expert solitary shooter , then choosing Dealey Plaza as arena , the TSBD 6th floor as the platform, and a moving target situation , is NOT what professional hit man ( or team) would likely do. It’s introducing too many variables.
The simple more easy way with less variables would be to select an arena where JFK is standing on a podium giving a speech. And elevation of the shooter nearly at same elevation as the podium. A single FMJ 6.5 or 7.62 bullet laced with cyanide fired at only about 1200 ft /sec velocity ( subsonic ammo) with rifle with a suppressor , would not have been heard at all.
One shot one kill, no rifle left behind , shooter has easier escape.
So if a conspiracy why did the shooter ( or2) choose Dealey Plaza and the TSBD 6th floor ?
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JFK Assassination Discussion & Debate / Re: List of the best sources for each home movie i know about
« Last post by Robin Unger on Today at 07:15:16 PM »Well, imagine this, you have a low quality copy of a film, right? that film you have shows something that could prove a conspiracy, but then you acquire the best public copy and find out that copy does not have the earth-shattering stuff your previous low-quality copy had.
Exactly.
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JFK Assassination Discussion & Debate / Re: List of the best sources for each home movie i know about
« Last post by Robin Unger on Today at 07:10:11 PM »that’s nice, Matt. my go-to place is Robin Unger’s photo gallery here for the best quality everything. Robin is a class act. Thanks, Robin.
Thanks Mark.
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JFK Assassination Discussion & Debate / Re: Now What Mr. Trump?
« Last post by John Corbett on Today at 05:52:32 PM »I just wanted to clarify a comment I made in an earlier post. I said that the Whigs elected two presidents and had two more ascend to the presidency upon the deaths of the two elected Whig presidents, William Henry Harrison and Zachary Taylor. That is technically true, but John Tyler, who was the Whig nominee for the vice-presidency in both 1836 and 1840, was a WINO (Whig In Name Only). He had been a Democrat but had a falling out with Andrew Jackson and joined the Whigs. After ascending to the presidency upon the death of Harrison, he had another falling out, this time with the Whig Party early in his presidency and declared himself to be unaffiliated for most of his presidency. In 1844, he reconciled with Jackson over the issue of Texas annexation and endorsed Democrat James Polk for president over Whig Henry Clay.
Amazingly, Tyler who was our tenth president, had a living grandson until May of 2025, Harrison Ruffin Tyler. An older brother had passed away a few years earlier. 60 Minutes did a feature on Harrison Ruffin Tyler earlier in this decade. John Tyler fathered his last son in his sixties and that son fathered Harrison Ruffin Tyler in 1928 when he was 72 years old.
Amazingly, Tyler who was our tenth president, had a living grandson until May of 2025, Harrison Ruffin Tyler. An older brother had passed away a few years earlier. 60 Minutes did a feature on Harrison Ruffin Tyler earlier in this decade. John Tyler fathered his last son in his sixties and that son fathered Harrison Ruffin Tyler in 1928 when he was 72 years old.
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General Discussion And Debate (Any Topic) / Re: Donald Trump is a real piece of Uh Oh Uh Oh Uh Oh Uh Oh
« Last post by Michael Capasse on Today at 05:31:21 PM »Well, if you listen to CNN or MSLSD you think that, but the fact remains Obama gave them 1.7 billion in foreign cash plus lifted sanctions giving them another 50 billion. Sleepy Joe kept the money rolling in.
https://dailyjournal.net/2023/11/24/editorial-biden-keeps-the-billions-flowing-to-iran/
It was funds that belonged to Iran and were frozen in foreign banks due to international sanctions.
Iran followed the rules of the 2015 agreement. Regular inspections provided proof of no nuclear arms program.
Turn OFF Fox News.
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General Discussion And Debate (Any Topic) / Re: Am I the only one...
« Last post by John Corbett on Today at 04:42:28 PM »How do you blame the left?
TN is a Republican supermajority deeply RED state that has a recent track record of botching executions.
If you are going to execute - do it right.
Botched Executions in Tennessee
• October 2026 (Christa Pike): Prison officials halted the execution process after administering the lethal drug pentobarbital, and the inmate was subsequently transferred to a medical facility for care. Following the incident, Governor Bill Lee suspended all scheduled executions to allow for an independent review.
• May 2026 (Tony Carruthers): The execution attempt was halted when personnel were unable to successfully establish the required intravenous lines. The state subsequently granted the inmate a one-year reprieve.
• April 2022 (Oscar Smith): Governor Lee called off the execution shortly before it was scheduled to begin due to a technical oversight. An internal review later revealed that the execution drugs had not undergone testing according to the required state protocols
This is why I said we should abandon lethal injections and go back to more traditional methods of execution: hanging, electric chair, gas chamber, and even firing squads. I don't recall problems with any of these.
About 30 years ago in Columbus, Ohio, a paroled murderer named Alva Campbell who was jailed for a subsequent crime, feigned paralysis and was being transported to a hospital by a single female deputy. He overpowered her and took her gun which he used to carjack an 18 year old kid named Charles Dials who had come to the county building to pay a traffic ticket. After having the kid drive him around for a while, he forced the kid to change clothes with him, then shot him dead. When he was arrested, he bragged about how he had taken the kid's whole life away from him. It took over 20 years before the court's allowed Campbell's execution to take place. By that time, he was terminally ill from cancer. They couldn't even find a usable vein to put the needle in his arm and the execution was called off. Any of the above named methods of execution could have been carried out effectively, but because we insist on "humanely" putting these scumbags to death, Campbell escaped even belated justice. He died a few months later.
Contrast that with the executions of Dick Hickock and Perry Smith, the two infamous In Cold Blood murderers who slaughtered four members of the Clutter family in November of 1959. They were also the prime suspects in the murder of another family of four in Florida while on the run from the Clutter murders. They were sentenced in Kansas to hang and their executions were carried out in April of 1965. Hickock was hanged first and it was 23 minutes between the time the trap door dropped and he was pronounced dead. Smith took 17 minutes to die. A hanging is supposed to dislocate the 3rd and 4th cervical vertebrae and sever the cerebral cortex making death instantaneous. That doesn't always happen and apparently didn't happen with either of these men. Were they conscious during the time they were hanging? Did they suffer? I don't know, but I sure hope so.
When people like this are executed, the number one priority should be that their death is certain. Whether they suffer or not during the process should be at most a minor concern. Does anyone think scum like this cared whether their victims suffered. Maybe Hickock and Perry should have been executed the same manner as their victims, with a shotgun blast to the head at close range.
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JFK Assassination Discussion & Debate / Re: The Miracle On Elm Street
« Last post by Jack Nessan on Today at 04:06:16 PM »I will gladly debate you on any aspect of this case.
Watching you fall to pieces will never get boring.
Now, for the record - do you believe Rowland invented his sighting of the man with the rifle on the 6th floor of the TSBD building in the minutes leading up to the assassination?
Yes or No and we can move on to anything you would like to debate.
Debate, is this your new battle cry? Other threads you brought up debate with other posters. Your story is so weak you now have to pretend there is something to debate? How about explain Rowland answers to Specter that is what is being discussed.
Typical CT nonsense, ask some ridiculous meaningless question instead of provide an answer. What I think is immaterial.
This is all you need to concern yourself with:
You are trying to weasel word your way out of explaining Rowlands testimony. How about you man up and relate his sighting to reality.
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General Discussion And Debate (Any Topic) / Re: I have to make sure I have popcorn and beer on hand for this one
« Last post by John Corbett on Today at 04:00:39 PM »Dear Herr Corbett,
Is it true that you've told The Traitorous Orange You-Know-What that you want to run the gas chambers so gosh darned much that you'll do it for free?
-- Tom
No, but if they need volunteers for the firing squad, I can practice my marksmanship between now and December 3.
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JFK Assassination Discussion & Debate / Re: The First Shot
« Last post by Jack Nessan on Today at 03:57:28 PM »You left the part out where Studebaker states he did not know of any. Not that is not the same as there weren’t any.
I reproduced a part of Studebaker's testimony where he specifically stated there were no other chicken bones other than the ones in the lunch sack:
Mr. BALL. That's the sack, is that right?
Mr. STUDEBAKER. Yes.
Mr. BALL. And it shows - it has some chicken bones in it?
Mr. STUDEBAKER. Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. Any chicken bones in any other place?
Mr. STUDEBAKER. No.
Mr. BALL. None outside the sack?
Mr. STUDEBAKER. No; they were all inside the sack, wrapped up and put right back In. It had a little piece of Fritos in the sack, too.
Studebaker is unequivocal - no other chicken bones anywhere else.
What is really funny - and this is so like you - you then reproduce a part of Studebaker's testimony that you believe makes him sound less sure, when in reality he is doubling down on his certainty:
Mr. BALL. Now, did you see a chicken bone over near the boxes in the south-east corner, over near where you found the cartridges and the paper sack? Mr.
Mr. STUDEBAKER. I don't believe there was one there.
Mr. BALL. You didn't see any. One witness, a deputy sheriff named Luke Mooney said he found a piece of chicken partly eaten up on top of one of the boxes; did you see anything like that?
Mr. STUDEBAKER. No.
You are so funny.
But it doesn't matter because you will still continue to push your wrong-headed nonsense no matter how much the evidence refutes what you are proposing.
As far as Studebaker is concerned there is only one set of lunch remains.
Remember, there are pictures of Studebaker actually inside the SN dusting boxes. To imagine he couldn't see chicken remains right on top of the boxes he was examining is so ridiculous it is totally in keeping with how you view this case.
He was being directed to them not searching for them himself.
You must cite evidence for this assertion.
What evidence do you have that Studebaker needed other detectives to do his job for him?
Or have you already started to invent things out of thin air and present them as a fact?
Remember, I've dealt with you before, Jack. I know exactly how this is going to go.
Thank you for posting the evidence from multiple first responders who discovered BRW's lunch remains on top of the SN. If, as you say, there were two sets of lunch remains, what happened to the set found on top of the SN? Where did they go? Why weren't they recorded by Studebaker or Day?
And don't just make something up like you usually do. Provide evidence for your assertions. Like I do
As far as Studebaker is concerned there is only one set of lunch remains.
No
Remember, there are pictures of Studebaker actually inside the SN dusting boxes. To imagine he couldn't see chicken remains right on top of the boxes he was examining is so ridiculous it is totally in keeping with how you view this case.
That was his job. Dust them, not find them.
Detective Montgomery not only stated he saw them he pointed out on Exhibit J where they were located.
Mr. BALL. I show you a picture which is Exhibit J, which shows some boxes in the picture that's in the southeast corner there.
Mr Mr. MONTGOMERY. I know there was one piece laying up on top of the box there.
. MONTGOMERY. Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. Can you tell me where the chicken was?
Mr. MONTGOMERY. I believe it was right up on these boxes right along in there. There's some boxes coming along in there.
Mr. BALL. Coming along in there you mean it's outside of the view of the pictures?
Mr. MONTGOMERY. Yes, sir; right along in here.
Mr. BALL. And that would be to the north, of that point?
Mr. MONTGOMERY. Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. And what did you see on top of those boxes?
Mr. MONTGOMERY. There was one piece of chicken there.
Mr. BALL. Partially eaten?
Mr. MONTGOMERY. Yes; I believe it was partially eaten---on that picture right there I was just looking at.
Mr. BALL. That's Exhibit J.
What evidence do you have that Studebaker needed other detectives to do his job for him?
Or have you already started to invent things out of thin air and present them as a fact?
Remember, I've dealt with you before, Jack. I know exactly how this is going to go.
Obviously not. His job was not as a detective but to process crime scenes.
Mr. STUDEBAKER. …………and right now I am a detective in the Crime Scene Service Section of the ID Bureau of the Dallas Police Department.
Mr. BALL. What sort of training did you have for the crime lab work that you are doing?
Mr. STUDEBAKER. It's just on - the - job training - you go out with old officers and learn how to dust for prints and take pictures and fingerprints.
Mr. STUDEBAKER. We went to the entrance and they said it was on the sixth floor and we went directly to the sixth floor.
Mr. BALL. Then, were you directed to some place on the sixth floor, as soon as you arrived there?
Mr. STUDEBAKER. No; they hadn't found anything when we got there.
Mr. BALL. After you were there a little while, did somebody find something?
Mr. STUDEBAKER. They found the empty hulls in the southeast corner of the building - they found three empty hulls and we went over there and took photographs of that.
Studebaker was told where to go as evidence was located
Mr. STUDEBAKER. Yes, sir; that's why, right after these were taken, they said they had found a rifle and to bring the cameras over to the northwest corner of the building where the rifle was found and I loaded everything up and carried it over there.
Studebaker is only referring to the sack used by BRW and pieces of chicken out side of BRW’s sack lunch, and not were there pieces of chicken else where on the 6th floor. Stop making things up.
Mr. BALL. Then, you don't have any pictures taken of the boxes before they were moved?
Mr. ST Mr. BALL. That's the sack, is that right?
Mr. STUDEBAKER. Yes.
Mr. BALL. And it shows - it has some chicken bones in it?
Mr. STUDEBAKER. Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. Any chicken bones in any other place?
Mr. STUDEBAKER. No.
Mr. BALL. None outside the sack?
Mr. STUDEBAKER. No; they were all inside the sack, wrapped up and put right back In. It had a little piece of Fritos in the sack, too.
Mr. BALL. Then, we will have the next picture marked Exhibit I, which shows the Dr. Pepper bottle with the two - wheeler, is that right?
Mr. STUDEBAKER. Yes, sir
Nobody told him, not that there weren’t any there.
Mr. BALL. Now, did you see a chicken bone over near the boxes in the south-east corner, over near where you found the cartridges and the paper sack? Mr.
Mr. STUDEBAKER. I don't believe there was one there.
Mr. BALL. You didn't see any. One witness, a deputy sheriff named Luke Mooney said he found a piece of chicken partly eaten up on top of one of the boxes; did you see anything like that?
Mr. STUDEBAKER. No.
Mr. BALL. Was anything like that called to your attention?
Mr. STUDEBAKER. I can't recall anything like that. It ought to be in one of these pictures, if it is.
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How do you blame the left?