JFK Assassination Forum

That's my story and I am sticking with it.

1) Who cares?

2) Why do you think a Kremlin-loyal triple agent (Ivan Obyedkov) "volunteered" to a "forgetful" Oswald or Oswald impersonator the Department 13 radioactive name "Kostikov" over a sure-to-be-tapped-by-CIA phone line seven weeks before the assassination, which name "Kostikov" had been made Department 13 radioactive a year earlier by another Kremlin-loyal triple agent, Aleksei Kulak -- J. Edgar Hoover's shielded-from-CIA FEDORA at the FBI's NYC field office?

3) And why did "The Blond Oswald In Mexico City" -- KGB Colonel Nikolai Leonov -- tell the National Enquirer on 11/22/93 that he had met with a weeping and pistol-brandishing Oswald at the Soviet Embassy (not the Consulate) on Sunday, 9/29/63?

Is British far-leftist John Simkin correct in saying at his so-called "JFK Assassination Debate - Education Forum" that CIA Counterintelligence Chief James Angleton "monitored Oswald’s private life and political activities for four years before JFK was killed," or is he thinking of father-figure-requiring Angleton's confidant, mentor, and mole-hunting superior, probable KGB "mole" Bruce Leonard Solie, who kept his own Security Office "Black Hole" file on LHO and whom John M. Newman believes sent (or duped Angleton into sending) Oswald to Moscow in October 1959 as an ostensible "dangle" in a (unbeknownst to Angleton and Oswald) planned-to-fail hunt for "Popov's U-2 Mole" (Solie) in the wrong part of the CIA?

Simkin posted a list of CIA documents that Comrade Jefferson Morley wanted in January of this year to be released. The following is one which has been released since then -- the unredacted transcript of Angleton's testimony to the Church Committee on 19 June 1975.

https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=238702#relPageId=63

It's interesting to note that the very first word on page 63 is "Byetkov," the transcriptionist's misspelling of "Obyedkov," as in Ivan Obyedkov, the KGB officer and Embassy security officer who "volunteered" to Oswald or an Oswald impersonator over a sure-to-be-tapped-by-CIA phone line on Tuesday, 1 October 1963, the Department 13-radioactive name "Kostikov," and that Angleton goes on, either in this testimony or the testimony he gave to the Church Committee on 6 February 1976 (I'm going from memory here), to say that the CIA realized later that Obyedkov was a Kremlin-loyal triple agent, i.e., it mistakenly believed it had successfully recruited him.

Also mentioned by Angleton on 19 June 1975 (and by inference on 6 February 1976) is surname of Sylvia Duran's, Alfredo Mirabal's and Eusebio Azcue's "Blond Oswald in Mexico City" -- KGB Colonel / Soviet "Diplomat" Nikolai Leonov (whose name is butchered every-which-way by Angleton and/or by the transcriptionist).

Enjoy!

https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=1434#relPageId=1&search=Angleton


PS The Church Committee's Chief Counsel, Frederick A. O. Schwarz, Jr., really screws up on the previous page (page 62) when he alleges that a photo of Leonov was found in Oswald's pocket when he was arrested in Mexico.

It's no wonder that Angleton's reply was, "There is an allegation."

Factoid: It wasn't a photo of Leonov, but one of his "calling cards," and it wasn't found in Oswald's pocket when he "was arrested in Mexico" (Oswald was never arrested in Mexico), but in the notebook of none other than Fidel Castro when he was arrested in Mexico City with Che And Da Boys in 1956.

Scroll down to see a photo of Leonov and Fidel and Raul Castro that was taken several years later:
https://www.escambray.cu/2022/muere-en-moscu-nikolai-leonov-gran-amigo-de-cuba/

 

It is a fact that Bonnie Ray's lunch remains were initially discovered on the top of the stack of boxes that formed the back wall of the Sniper's Nest.
You need to ask yourself this question - What is the significance of this discovery?

Dear danny BOY o'meara,

What do you think the significance of that great discovery is?

That Bonnie Ray Williams sat inside the Sniper's Nest while drinking his Dr. Pepper and eating his Fritos and his chicken-on-the-bone sandwich?

If so, do you think that when he was finished, Bonnie Ray took his empty Dr. Pepper bottle around to the other side of the "side wall" and left it on the floor, there, or do you think he tossed it over said "side wall" from inside the Sniper's Nest and it just happened to land upright?

Do you find it highly, highly implausible that that Bonnie Ray didn't notice Oswald, hiding in the far corner of the Sniper's Nest, when he left his bag (with the chicken bones and the empty Fritos bag) on top of the Sniper's Nest back "wall"?

Do you really think that Bonnie Ray perjured himself in front of the Warren Commission, that evil, evil Allen Dulles and/or evil, evil Gerald Ford altered his testimony, and that that pesky Dr. Pepper bottle was planted there by the evil, evil, CIA, the evil, evil FBI, or the evil, evil [fill in the blank]?

It seems to me that Bonnie Ray probably ate his lunch where he testified he did -- near or actually sitting on the "two wheeler" by the third and fourth windows, but that's not very exciting, is it. (British dialect.)


Regardless, keep up the good work, danny old BOY.

Vladimir Putin is counting on you!


-- Tom

Further evidence (as if it were needed) that the first shot did not miss and was, in fact, the one that caused JFK's extreme reaction, elbows up, clenched fists near his neck, slumping over.
The following is taken from Pat Speer's website and his invaluable study of the witness statements regarding the shots. Along with many of the arguments presented in this thread, there can be no doubt the first shot hit JFK:

Remote Viewers--those noting the impact of the shots from buildings looking down on Dealey Plaza (all listed witnesses heard three shots unless otherwise noted):

James Jarman  (11-24-63 FBI report, CD5 p334-335) “He said that he heard a shot and then saw President Kennedy move his right hand up to his head."

Ruth Smith (12-21-63 FBI interview, CD206 p.9) “She looked back toward President Kennedy’s car after the first shot and thinks he raised his hands to his face.”

Lillian Mooneyham (1-10-64 FBI report, 24H531) “Mrs. Mooneyham heard a gunshot and observed President Kennedy slump to the left of the seat of his car."

Cecil Ault (1-10-64 FBI report, 24H534) “Mr. Ault heard three loud reports…Following the first shot Mr. Ault noted that President Kennedy appeared to raise up in his seat in the Presidential automobile and after the second shot the president slumped into his seat."

Dr. Samuel Paternostro (1-20-64 FBI report, 24H536) “He said he estimated several seconds, possibly four or five more, elapsed between the first report and the second and third reports. He said he observed President John F. Kennedy when he appeared to grab his head and thought at the time he is “well-trained;” then, when the other reports followed in quick succession, he realized that the President had been shot.”

Harold Norman (3-24-64 testimony before the Warren Commission, 3H186-198) "I can’t remember what the exact time was but I know I heard a shot, and then after I heard a shot, well, it seems as though the President, you know, slumped or something."

So, we're just beginning and the score is already 6-0. All these witnesses heard three shots and all of them believed Kennedy responded to the first shot.

Eastsiders--those noting the impact of the shots from a location in the Plaza to the east of the limousine at the time of the first shot:

Pierce Allman (11-22-63 eyewitness report on WFAA radio, between 1:45 and 2:00 PM CST)  “Right after Mr. Kennedy passed in front of me I heard one big explosion and my immediate thought like most of the people standing around me was “this is firecrackers, but it’s in pretty poor taste”. I looked and saw the president, I thought, duck. Evidently, he was slumping at the time."

Jean Newman (11-22-63 statement to the Dallas Sheriff’s Department, 19H489, 24H218) "The motorcade had just passed me when I heard something that I thought was a firecracker at first, and the President had just passed me, because after he had just passed, there was a loud report, it just scared me, and I noticed that the President jumped, he sort of ducked his head down, and I thought at the time that it probably scared him too, just like it did me, because he flinched like he jumped. I saw him put his elbows like this, with his hands on his chest." (Only heard two shots.)

June Dishong (Letter written on 11-22-63, as read by her daughter on CNN, 11-21-2003, and featured on the Sixth Floor Museum website) “here come the president and his wife…His arm in the air waving…He drops his arm as they go by, possibly 20 feet. Suddenly--a sound.  Gun shots? So hard to tell above the clamor of the crowd. The president bent forward into his wife’s lap as his arm slipped off the side of the car."

Mary Woodward (11-23-63 newspaper article Witness From the News Describes Assassination written by Woodward for the Dallas Morning News) "After acknowledging our cheers, he [JFK] faced forward again and suddenly there was a horrible, ear-splitting noise coming from behind us and a little to the right. My first reaction, and also my friends', was that as a joke someone had backfired their car...I don't believe anyone was hit with the first bullet. The President and Mrs. Kennedy turned and looked around, as if they, too, didn't believe the noise was really coming from a gun." (Kennedy, of course, does not turn and look around after frame 160, but resumes waving. What Woodward called "turning" then is almost certainly a reaction to the first shot's impact.)

Patricia Lawrence (11-24-63 FBI Report, 22H841): “When the motorcade passed she stated she was looking at Mrs. Kennedy who was looking to the other side of the car. The President was looking in her direction and she had waved. She heard the shot fired as the president was waving." (The president was not waving at frame 160 of the Zapruder film--the moment of the purported first shot miss--but was waving by frame 180, a second or so later. Still, as Lawrence does not specifically say the president stopped waving after the shot, it's difficult to say for sure that she is describing a first shot hit.) 

Mrs. Ruby Henderson (12-6-63 FBI report, 24H524) “at the time the motorcade passed where she was standing, she heard what she initially thought was a firecracker, and saw what she thought was paper fly out of the Presidential car. She said she now realized it was a shot she heard and what she thought was paper was probably flesh." (If so, she thought the first of the four shots she heard was the head shot. This seems highly unlikely, in light of all the other statements. It seems probable then that she was mistaken on this point.)

TE Moore (1-10-64 FBI report, 24H534) “By the time President Kennedy had reached the Thornton Freeway sign, a shot was fired and Mr. Moore observed the President slump forward in the Presidential car."

Phil Willis (7-22-64 testimony before the Warren Commission, 7H492-497) "When I took slide No. 4, the President was smiling and waving and looking straight ahead, and Mrs. Kennedy was likewise smiling and facing more to my side of the street. When the first shot was fired, her head seemed to just snap in that direction, and he more or less faced the other side of the street and slumped forward.”

Linda Willis (7-22-64 testimony before the Warren Commission, 7H498-499) (When asked if she heard shots) “Yes; I heard one. Then there was a little bit of time, and then there were two real fast bullets together. When the first one hit, well, the President turned from waving to the people, and he grabbed his throat, and he kind of slumped forward."

Welcome Eugene Barnett (7-23-64 testimony before the Warren Commission, 7H539-544) “I was looking at the President when the first shot was fired, and I thought I saw him slump down, but I am not sure, and I didn’t look any more then.  I thought he was ducking down."

Mary Sue Dickerson (Article by Beverly Shay in the 11-01-11 online edition of Now Magazine) “As she was making eye contact with the president of the United States, several things occurred at once. She heard what she thought were firecrackers, which initially seemed so celebratory, but then he slumped forward."

Karen Westbrook (11-28-17 Living History interview with the Sixth Floor Museum) "When I heard the shot fired... I thought it was  a car backfiring... Everything seemed to go into slow motion in my mind. After the first shot was fired I saw the President's hands gradually come up..."

While we can't rightly count Mrs. Henderson, Ms. Lawrence or Ms. Newman as first shot hit witnesses, the statements of the other 9 witnesses definitely support that Kennedy was hit by the first shot. This makes the score 15-0. Unfortunately, things get a little more confusing when we move on to discuss the statements of those on the west end of the plaza.

Westsiders--those noting the impact of the shots from a location in the plaza to the west of the limousine at the time of the last shot:

Abraham Zapruder (2:10 PM 11-22-63 interview on WFAA) “as I was shooting, as the President was coming down from Houston Street making his turn, it was about a half-way down there, I heard a shot, and he slumped to the side, like this. Then I heard another shot or two, I couldn't say it was one or two, and I saw his head practically open up, all blood and everything, and I kept on shooting.” (Only heard two definite shots, but felt certain Kennedy was hit by the first one.)

Emmett Hudson (11-22-63 statement to Dallas Sheriff’s Department, 19H481) “At the same time the President’s car was directly in front of us, I heard a shot and I saw the President fall over in the seat." (First shot head shot.)

S.M. Holland (11-22-63 statement to Dallas County Sheriff’s Department, 19H480, 24H212) “the President’s car was coming down Elm Street and when they got just about to the Arcade I heard what I thought for the moment was a fire cracker and he slumped over...After the first shot the President slumped over and Mrs. Kennedy jumped up." (Once again...first shot, head shot.)

Malcolm Summers (11-23-63 statement to Dallas Sheriff’s Department, 19H500) “The President’s car had just come up in front of me when I heard a shot and saw the President slump down in the car and heard Mrs. Kennedy say, “Oh, no,” then a second shot and then I hit the ground as I realized these were shots." (Only recalled hearing two shots, with the first one most probably the head shot.)

Jack Franzen (11-24-63 FBI report, 22H840) “He said he heard the sound of an explosion which appeared to him to come from the President’s car and noticed small fragments flying inside the car and immediately assumed someone had tossed a firecracker inside the automobile." (Once again, the first shot he describes is the head shot.)

Mrs. Jack Franzen  (11-25-63 FBI report, 24H525) “She advised shortly after the President’s automobile passed by on Elm Street near where she and her family were standing, she heard a noise which sounded to her to as if someone had thrown a firecracker into the President’s automobile.  She advised at approximately the same time she noticed dust or small pieces of debris flying from the President’s automobile." (Her statement mimics her husband's. Once again, the first shot is the head shot.)

Dallas County Sheriff Bill Decker (Undated 1963-1964 statement included with Decker Exhibit 5323, 19H458) “I distinctly remember hearing 2 shots. As I heard the first retort, I looked back over my shoulder and saw what appeared to be a spray of water come out of the rear seat of the President’s car." (Only heard two shots, the first of which can be presumed to be the head shot.)

J.W. Foster (3-26-64 FBI report, CD897 p.20-21) “Just as the vehicle in which President Kennedy was riding reached a point on Elm Street just east of the underpass, Patrolman Foster heard a noise that sounded like a large firecracker…he realized something was wrong because of the movement of the President. Another report was heard by Patrolman Foster and about the same time the report was heard, he observed the President’s head appear to explode, and immediately thereafter, he heard a third report which he knew was a shot.” (As President Kennedy's movements between Zapruder frame 160 and 190 would not have convinced Foster that something was wrong, it follows that the first shot was heard after 190, and that this shot hit Kennedy.)

Marilyn Sitzman (11-29-66 interview with Josiah Thompson) “There was nothing unusual until the first sound, which I thought was a firecracker, mainly because of the reaction of President Kennedy. He put his hands up to guard his face and leaned to the left." (Only heard two shots.)

Stavis Ellis (HSCA Vol. XII, p.23) “On August 5, 1978...Ellis said that just as he started down the hill of Elm Street, he looked back toward President Kennedy’s car and saw debris come up from the ground at a nearby curb. Ellis thought it was a fragment grenade. Ellis also said that President Kennedy turned around and looked over his shoulder." (Even though Ellis believed the first shot missed, his description of Kennedy's actions by no means matches the behavior of Kennedy observed between frames 160 and 190 of the Zapruder film, and instead suggests the first shot hit. The "fragment grenade" observed by Ellis was most logically a piece of Kennedy's skull, which would suggest the first shot heard by Ellis was the head shot. It also seems possible Ellis heard less than three shots.)

Well, this is a surprise. Here, we have ten witnesses from the west end of the plaza--and all of them recalling at least two shots--and seven of them describing the events observed in the Zapruder film at the time of the head shot as the events they observed at the time of the FIRST shot. Now, this is curious, and suggests that (as Kennedy was obviously hit at least once before the head shot) not only did the first shot not miss, but that the second shot was the head shot. Huh. It follows then that it was the THIRD shot that missed. Now, as far as the other three witnesses--the ones who thought the first shot was other than the head shot--well, they all saw Kennedy react to the first shot. So, yeah, all ten indicated Kennedy was hit by the first shot. (Now we can call it 25-0 or count Foster and disregard the others, whereby it rests at 16-0. You decide.)

Centrists--those standing to the west of Kennedy at the time of the first shot, and to the east of Kennedy at the time of the last shot.

William Newman (11-22-63 interview on WFAA)  “we were at the edge of the curb, getting ready to wave at the President when we heard the first shot and the President.....I don't know who was hit first but the President jumped up in his seat, and I thought it scared him, I thought it was a firecracker, cause he looked....you know, fear." (Only heard two shots.)

Frances Gayle Newman (11-22-63 statement to Dallas Sheriff’s Department, 24H218)  “When President Kennedy’s car was about ten feet from us, I heard a noise that sounded like a firecracker going off. President Kennedy kind of jumped like he was startled and then covered his head with his hands and then raised up."

Mary Moorman (11-22-63 statement to Dallas Sheriff’s Department, 19H487, 24H217) “As President Kennedy was opposite me, I took a picture of him.  As I snapped the picture of President Kennedy, I heard a shot ring out. President Kennedy kind of slumped over." (Moorman's photo depicts the head shot. In other words, she thought the first shot was the head shot.)

Jean Hill (11-22-63 statement to Dallas Sheriff’s Department, 19H479, 24H212) “Just as Mary Moorman started to take a picture we were looking at the President and Jackie in the back seat…Just as the President looked up toward us two shots rang out and I saw the President grab his chest and fall forward across Jackie’s lap." (Once again...first shot--or burst--head shot.)

Charles Brehm (11-22-63 NBC television interview first broadcast around 3:15 CST, as shown in Rush to Judgment) “He was coming down the Street and my five-year old boy and myself were by ourselves on the grass there on Commerce Street. And I asked Joe to wave to him and Joe waved and I waved (breaks up)…as he was waving back, the shot rang out and he slumped down in his seat."

John Chism (11-22-63 statement to Dallas Sheriff’s Department, 19H471) "When I saw the motorcade round the corner, the President was standing and waving to the crowd.  And just as he got just about in front of me, he turned and waved to the crowd on this side of the street, the right side; at this point I heard what sounded like one shot, and I saw him “The President,” sit back in his seat and lean his head to his left side." (Only heard two shots.)

Marvin Faye Chism (11-22-63 statement to the Dallas Sheriff’s Department, 19H472) “As the President was coming through, I heard this first shot, and the President fell to his left." (Only heard two shots.)

Well, this is also interesting. Why did so few of those in the middle of the plaza hear three shots? The thought occurs that one of the shots was harder to hear than the others. The score, when one includes those hearing but two shots is now 32-0. Should one limit the count to those initially claiming to have heard three shots, moreover, the score is still 18-0.

The Motorcade Witnesses:

James Chaney (11-22-63 interview on WFAA, as shown on Youtube) “We heard the first shot. I thought it was a motorcycle backfiring and uh I looked back over to my left and also President Kennedy looked back over his left shoulder." (By saying the President turned to his left after the first shot--a movement that only happens after Kennedy has obviously been hit--Chaney suggests Kennedy was hit by the first shot.)

Bobby W. Hargis (11-22-63 article in Dallas Times-Herald) “About halfway down between Houston and the underpass I heard the first shot.  It sounded like a real loud firecracker.  When I heard the sound, the first thing I thought about was a gunshot. I looked around and about then Governor Connally turned around and looked at the President with a real surprised look on his face…The President bent over to hear what the Governor had to say." (Only heard two shots, but he saw the President respond to the first one.)

Glen Bennett (notes written on 11-22-63, 24H541-542) "At this point I heard a noise that immediately reminded me of a firecracker. I immediately, upon hearing the supposed firecracker, looked at the boss's car. At this exact time I saw a shot that hit the boss about 4 inches down from the right shoulder. A second shoot followed immediately and hit the right rear high of the boss's head." (While the precise meaning of Bennett's words are open to debate, they do on first glance suggest that he felt the first shot missed. Since he did not see Kennedy's reaction to the first shot, but only saw him at the "exact time" he received the second shot, it seems possible the blood seen by Bennett came from the first shot. But we'll call this one a first shot miss.)

Sam Kinney (11-22-63 report, 18H732) “The first shot was fired as we were going into an underpass…it appeared that he (the President) had been shot because he slumped to the left."

George Hickey (11-22-63 report, 18H765) “As 100-X made the turn and proceeded a short distance, I heard what seemed to me that a firecracker exploded to the right and rear. I stood partially up and turned to the rear to see if I could observe anything. Nothing was observed and I turned around and looked at the President’s car. The President was slumped to the left in the car."

Roy Kellerman (12-10-63 FBI report, CD7 p.3-11) (11-22-63 FBI interview) “he advised he heard a shot and immediately turned around, looking past Governor Connally…to the President.  He observed the President slump forward."

Paul Landis (11-27-63 report, 18H758-759) “At this moment, I heard what sounded like the report of a high powered rifle behind me. My first glance was at the President, as my eyes were almost straight ahead at that time. I did not realize that the President was hit at that point.  I saw him moving and thought he was turning in the direction of the sound." (Only heard two shots, but saw Kennedy react to the first sound.)

Emory Roberts (11-29-63 report, 18H733-738) “12:30 PM: First of three shots fired, at which time I saw the President lean toward Mrs. Kennedy."

First Lady Jacqueline Kennedy (11-29-63 interview with Theodore White, notes released 5-26-95) “They were gunning the motorcycles; there were these little backfires; there was one noise like that; I thought it was a backfire. Then next I saw Connally grabbing his arm and saying no no nononono, with his fist beating—then Jack turned and I turned." (Only heard two shots, but thought Connally reacted to the first one.)

Clint Hill (11-30-63 report, 18H740-745) “The noise came from my right rear and I immediately moved my head in that direction. In so doing, my eyes had to cross the Presidential automobile and I saw the President hunch forward and then slump to his left." (Only heard two shots, but saw the President react to the first one.)

First Lady of Texas Nellie Connally (Notes written on 12-2-63, as reprinted in her book From Love Field, 2003) “then I heard a loud, terrifying noise…I turned and looked toward the President just in time to see him clutch his neck and see him sink down in his seat."

B.J. Martin (4-3-64 testimony before the Warren Commission, 6H289-293) “one of the agents got off of the car after the first shot…I looked to my right (after the first shot)…I looked at the President after I heard the (first) shot and he was leaning forward—I could see the left side of his face."

David Powers (5-18-64 affidavit, 7H472-474) “the first shot went off and it sounded to me as if it were a firecracker. I noticed then that the President moved quite far to his left after the shot from the extreme right hand side where he had been sitting."

So...a final tally. When one performs even a cursory review of the statements regarding the movements within the limousine at the time of the first shot, one finds that 44 of these indicated Kennedy had a reaction to the first shot. Not one indicated he just sat there waving, or looked around and resumed waving.

Dear danny BOY o'meara,

Your poorly written last post implied that the three hulls were close together.

D'oh!

Regardless, please tell us:

Did Bonnie Ray Williams commit perjury, or did the Warren Commission, corrupted by evil, evil, evil Allen Dulles and Gerald Ford, alter his testimony as to where he sat while drinking his bottle of Dr. Pepper and eating his chicken-on-the-bone sandwich and bag of Fritos?

-- Tom

Dear Pinko,

your ignorance regarding the evidence in this case is profound.
If the Warren Commission didn't spoon feed it to you, you don't have the first clue about it.
It is a fact that Bonnie Ray's lunch remains were initially discovered ON TOP OF THE STACK OF BOXES THAT FORMED THE BACK WALL OF THE SNIPER'S NEST.

You are clearly unaware of this fact.
Rather than spread your ignorance, you should do some actual research.
Study the testimonies/statements of Mooney, Hill, McCurley, Weatherford, Brewer and Haygood regarding what they saw when they first went over to the southeast corner of the 6th floor, where the Sniper's Nest was located.
Once you've familiarised yourself with this evidence, you need to ask yourself this question - What is the significance of this discovery?

Do some research.