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The only ghost is the Holy Ghost. When you die its either paradise or torment. The mind can play tricks on you.

I've been down that road when I was young proselytizing nuisance with Campus Crusade for Christ. I now pee on that theology. In none of my theological beliefs is dogma allowed to trump the evidence. VAST bodies of evidence show conclusively that the "paradise or torment" theology is simply false. Nor am I willing to play the game that "I can't believe my own lying eyes and brain because everything that cuts against my dogma is the product of supernaturally clever deceiving demons." Lord, what a way to live!
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I wonder if you realize how extreme and biased you make yourself look with this kind of polemic.

Pretty dadgum extreme and biased. YEE-HAA!

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You couldn't even list six books, but only five.

That's because I was quoting a post from 2018. Here ya go: Walden by Henry David Thoreau. Happy now?

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Then, you just had to get on your soapbox and repeat your talking point that everyone who disagrees with you has a "conspiracy-prone mindset." In other replies, you've stated that those who disagree with you have warped minds, faulty neural pathways, and even a form of mental illness. In one reply, you said Greg Doudna was part of the "lunatic fringe." In another reply, you said that Dr. David Mantik sees things that no one else sees.

Not everyone, sweetie, but indeed some we could name.  ::) I'm sure Greg is an intelligent and hardworking guy who is kind to stray dogs, but in my opinion his ideas on virtually every issue are indeed lunatic fringe stuff. YMMV, and I'll bet it does.

The fact is, as I have pointed out repeatedly, there is now a VAST body of psychological and sociological literature concerning the conspiracy-prone mindset. Your continued umbrage might seem to many as though you were protesting just a wee bit too much.

Familiarity with this literature would be exceedingly helpful to a newbie in attempting to separate the wheat (e.g., Larry Hancock) from the chaff (i.e., you) in the CT literature.

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And notice the difference between the balance in my list and the lop-sided nature of your list. You list a very old book (Epstein) that questions the Warren Commission but posits a conspiracy theory that virtually no one believes anymore, and you list a book on Oswald in Russia (Titovets) written in 2021 by a guy who knew Oswald during his few years in Russia from October 1959 to June 1962. I would have been hard pressed to think of two weaker pro-conspiracy books. Your three pro-LN books are not terrible--I can think of several that are worse--but two of the authors had rather weak credentials to be writing about the JFK case, and it shows in their books (McMillan and Davison).

In my list, I included a recent and robust scholarly defense of the Warren Report, an exposition on the mortal-error theory (which disagrees with both the lone-gunman view and the conspiracy view), a book that focuses on the nature of the shooting and goes no further than to argue for multiple shooters without speculating on suspects), a book on the historic ARRB disclosures written by a former senior ARRB analyst, a book on the forensic and ballistics evidence written by a radiation oncologist and physicist who's also licensed in radiology, and a book on the evidence of Mafia involvement written by an award-winning investigative journalist.

I will concede: you are as fair and balanced as FOX News.  ::)

What you fail to grasp is that I am talking about methodology for a newbie. My suggestion would be for a newbie, BEFORE he (or she) dives into substantive JFKA materials, to (1) familiarize himself with the literature concerning the conspiracy-prone mindset, and (2) thoroughly acquaint himself with Oswald the actual man, not the fictional Most Interesting Man Who Ever Lived of much CT literature or the cardboard cutout who is plugged into many conspiracy theories only because "we gotta do something with him."
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Six Seconds in Dallas
Last Second in Dallas
JFK: Absolute Proof
No More Silence
Mafia Kingfish: Carlos Marcello and the Assassination of John F. Kennedy
The Plot to Kill the President
5
I wouldn't stoop to reply, but this is CLASSIC of what MTG does. Reality simply cannot penetrate the CT bubble in which he lives.

The ABSOLUTELY SCATHING review of O'Toole's book that I cited and quoted from was from the PROFESSIONAL JOURNAL OF THE AMERICAN POLYGRAPH ASSOCIATION. Hello?

Forty years later, Sean DeGrilla and his highly professional VSA cohorts ABSOLUTELY SHREDDED O'Toole's work and demonstrated the gross error that he had either incompetently or fraudulently committed.

The issue is not the accuracy of VSA. The issue is the incompetence and lack of ethics of O'Toole. Correctly done VSA by DeGrilla and peer-reviewed by world-class VSA experts showed Oswald as LYING.

No, he was not the chief of anything during his less than three years with the CIA. His PRECISE POSITIONS that I quoted were from a CIA DOCUMENT describing his employment. This was not a document attempting to minimize O'Toole or his CT views. It was simply a document briefly describing each of the principals of the Committee to Investigate Assassinations: https://www.cia.gov/readingroom/docs/THE%20COMMITTEE%20TO%20INVESTIG%5B16506075%5D.pdf.

I repeat: "He was employed as a Digital Computer Systems Analyst in March 1966. He resigned 24 January 1969 from a position as a Research Officer, GS-14, ORD/DDS&T" (Office of Research and Development, Directorate of Science and Technology).

He was not an "ex-CIA agent." He was not a "bureau chief." He was not "Chief of the Problem Analysis Branch." These are all titles that O'Toole either misappropriated or allowed to be attached to his name because what he actually was didn't sound sufficiently impressive. You will also see him referred to as a "case officer."

If this isn't sufficient for you, there WAS NO "Problem Analysis Branch" in the Office of Research and Development. It was called the Analysis Division. https://nsarchive2.gwu.edu/NSAEBB/NSAEBB54/st33.pdf. A history of the Analysis Division written in the 1970s said the Chief (name redacted) was appointed in 1968 and remained Chief "throughout its history" to the date of writing. https://www.governmentattic.org/27docs/HistCIAofcRandDvols1-6.pdf.

This is what MTG does, again and again. His crap is exposed, reamed, steamed and drycleaned - AND HE FLAT DOESN'T CARE. In the SAME THREAD in which it's been exposed, he repeats it all over again! There is something seriously wrong with this guy.

Oh, boy. Once again we're going to see that you get into trouble and show the inadequacy of your research when you engage on specifics.

For starters, I notice you didn't address the point about whether you have even read O'Toole's book.

Now, it just figures that you would cite Sean DeGrilla apparently without knowing of any of the many problems with his shoddy scholarship.

DeGrilla's critique of O'Toole's book is downright deceptive. Let's take a look at DeGrilla's attack on O'Toole's PSE analysis in his book Malcontent (Part II:1):

DeGrilla pretends that PSE experts Mike Kradz and Lloyd (“Rusty”) Hitchcock did not confirm what O’Toole said about their PSE analyses, and that they gave “less than ringing endorsements” when asked about O’Toole’s PSE research. If you actually read DeGrilla’s quotes from Kradz and Hitchcock, you see that he is rather clumsily misrepresenting what they said, even though he quotes them.

With Kradz’s statement, DeGrilla underlines the part where, clearly for rhetorical effect, Kradz describes O’Toole’s research as “a strange, different, and bizarre system of explanations and interpretations.” Perhaps DeGrilla hoped that by underlining these words, the reader would not notice that Kradz then goes on to say that O’Toole’s system of explanations and interpretations is “creditable” and “has not been denied nor refuted.” So even though Kradz said that O’Toole’s research was creditable and had not been denied or refuted, DeGrilla pretends that Kradz denigrated O’Toole’s research.

Furthermore, we should remember that when O’Toole asked Kradz to analyze the Oswald PSE charts, he did not tell him that the charts were of Oswald’s statements. He simply told Kradz that the charts were of statements made by someone who had been accused of murder, so Kradz had no idea that he was looking at charts of statements made by Oswald. I mention this because DeGrilla does not.

Also, when Kradz learned that the PSE charts were of Oswald, he suspected the O’Toole had misused his PSE equipment, so he checked all the settings that O’Toole had used--and found no problem with them.

DeGrilla’s attempt to minimize Hitchcock’s endorsement of O’Toole’s PSE research on Oswald’s declarations of innocence is perhaps even more misleading and sophomoric than his treatment of Kradz’s statement.

DeGrilla quotes an FBI memo that opined that Hitchcock’s letter to O’Toole was “far from an unqualified endorsement.” Really? Hitchcock said that unless Oswald was so crazy that he was unaware of his own actions, he, Hitchcock, could state “beyond reasonable doubt” that Oswald did not shoot Kennedy and did not shoot anyone else. Let’s read what the memo itself quotes Hitchcock as saying:

“Assuming that he (Oswald) was not suffering from a psycho-pathological condition that made him ignorant of his own actions, I can state, beyond reasonable doubt, that Lee Harvey Oswald did not kill President Kennedy and did not shoot anyone else.”

And this is not all that Hitchcock said. DeGrilla conveniently fails to inform his readers that Hitchcock also said in his letter that his own PSE analysis of the recordings of Oswald’s innocence declarations “clearly” indicated that Oswald believed he was telling the truth when he made them. I quote from Hitchcock’s letter:

“My PSE analysis of these recordings indicates very clearly that Oswald believed he was telling the truth when he denied killing the president.”

Humm, I wonder why DeGrilla does not see fit to quote that part of Hitchcock’s letter. Why do you suppose he omitted such crucial information?

You have once again been burned by your failure to read both sides of an issue before discussing the matter in a public forum. I'm certain you had no idea about the errors and deception in DeGrilla's research, and it apparently did not occur to you to read O'Toole's book or his article before running with DeGrilla's hack job.

I would encourage everyone to read O’Toole’s article on his PSE analysis of Oswald’s innocence declarations. O’Toole’s article contains a lot more information than what I’ve presented so far, such as information on O’Toole’s methodology and how he used the PSE equipment. Here’s the link to the article:

http://jfk.hood.edu/Collection/Weisberg%20Subject%20Index%20Files/O%20Disk/O%27Toole%20George/Item%2021.pdf

I would also encourage everyone to read O'Toole's book The Assassination Tapes.

As for O'Toole's position at the CIA, I will just point out that unfortunately the CIA has a long record of not always being completely accurate when describing the work and positions of former CIA personnel who said things the agency did not like.

It is worth noting that O'Toole authored several award-winning books, including The Encyclopedia of American Intelligence and Espionage and Honorable Treachery: A History of American Intelligence. One of his books was a Pulitzer Prize nominee.

The bio that O'Toole submitted to a research committee reads as follows:

Mr. O'Toole is a former employee of the Central Intelligence Agency. He was employed as a Digital Computer Systems Analyst in March 1966. He resigned 24 January 1969 from a position as a Research Officer, GS-14, ORD/DDSGT. Mr. O'Toole accepted a position as Director of the Education Division of Computer Methods Corporation, New York.

Now, I can tell you as a federal employee myself that GS-14 is a very high rank, and that GS-14s are frequently put in charge of running offices or branches of departments and sometimes entire departments. The person who ran the department I worked for at Army Sustainment University was a GS-14.

Of course, you seek to denigrate or minimize the qualifications of any author who posits a conspiracy in the JFK case, but O'Toole was clearly an educated person and a serious and respected scholar.

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The only ghost is the Holy Ghost. When you die its either paradise or torment. The mind can play tricks on you.
7
If Oswald fired his first alleged shot before Z133, it would have required him to shoot at a sharply downward angle. The FBI's Robert Frazier told the WC that a pre-Z166 shot would have required a downward angle of 40 degrees. Where did this fanciful Z132-Z133 miss go? How could this miss have caused a bullet or fragment to hit the curb near James Tague and to send metal or concrete fragments streaking toward him with enough force to cut his cheek?

Dear Comrade Griffith,

Oswald's missing-everything shot at "Z-124" (half-a-second before Zapruder resumed filming at Z-133 after a 17-second pause) was even more sharply downward-angled, contributing to the hard-to-hit high angular velocity of JFK's head from Oswald's point of view.

D'oh

The Haags showed in "Cold Case JFK" that a round-nosed Carcano bullet's striking asphalt pavement at a sharp downward angle causes it to create a divot and to disintegrate into "nothingness."

Herb Huskr at "JFK Truth Be Told" has shown a divot-like mark in a Secret Service reenactment film that corresponds with the closest point to JFK's head at "Z-124."

He has also shown that's it's possible that James Tague was nicked by a piece of concrete struck off the curb by a largish bullet fragment from the fatal Z-313 head shot.

-- Tom

PS Keep up the good work -- Vladimir Putin really appreciates what you're doing!

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I will attempt to answer this seriously, without descending into the pathetically juvenile silliness that all too often characterizes my self-amusing contributions.  :D :D :D

I recalled this same discussion from the Ed Forum in 2018. Fred Litwin had listed the usual LN staples, and I added:

To [Fred's] list, I would add:

OSWALD'S GAME - Jean Davison
MARINA AND LEE - Priscilla Johnson McMillan
OSWALD'S TALE - Norman Mailer
OSWALD: RUSSIAN EPISODE - Ernst Titovets
LEGEND - Edward Jay Epstein

Yes, yes, I know, the first three at least are staples of the Lone Nut community.  (Epstein's work, of course, is approximately 180 degrees removed from the currently prevailing Deep Politics theories, which is why he is dismissed as either a CIA dupe or disinformation agent.)  I believe it is CRITICAL, before bogging down in minutiae and theories, to gain as much of an understanding as possible of WHO LEE HARVEY OSWALD REALLY WAS.  I would've saved myself a lot of time and money if I had taken that approach.


I still strongly agree with this. The biggest mistake anyone can make, in my opinion, is to dive into the conspiracy literature. You'll end up cross-eyed and confused, quite possibly beyond all redemption. I started with Best Evidence and High Treason, for God's sake. How I escaped, I'm still not entirely sure.

I would also strongly suggest that a newcomer spend some time in the psychological and sociological literature regarding the conspiracy-prone mindset. You might even recognize yourself, as I did! At a minimum, you will have a much better perspective when you dive into the conspiracy literature.

I wonder if you realize how extreme and biased you make yourself look with this kind of polemic.

You couldn't even list six books, but only five. Then, you just had to get on your soapbox and repeat your talking point that everyone who disagrees with you has a "conspiracy-prone mindset." In other replies, you've stated that those who disagree with you have warped minds, faulty neural pathways, and even a form of mental illness. In one reply, you said Greg Doudna was part of the "lunatic fringe." In another reply, you said that Dr. David Mantik sees things that no one else sees.

And notice the difference between the balance in my list and the lop-sided nature of your list. You list a very old book (Epstein) that questions the Warren Commission but posits a conspiracy theory that virtually no one believes anymore, and you list a book on Oswald in Russia (Titovets) written in 2021 by a guy who knew Oswald during his few years in Russia from October 1959 to June 1962. I would have been hard pressed to think of two weaker pro-conspiracy books. Your three pro-LN books are not terrible--I can think of several that are worse--but two of the authors had rather weak credentials to be writing about the JFK case, and it shows in their books (McMillan and Davison).

In my list, I included a recent and robust scholarly defense of the Warren Report, an exposition on the mortal-error theory (which disagrees with both the lone-gunman view and the conspiracy view), a book that focuses on the nature of the shooting and goes no further than to argue for multiple shooters without speculating on suspects), a book on the historic ARRB disclosures written by a former senior ARRB analyst, a book on the forensic and ballistics evidence written by a radiation oncologist and physicist who's also licensed in radiology, and a book on the evidence of Mafia involvement written by an award-winning investigative journalist. 
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It is interesting to note that some lone-gunman theorists still cite Russo in their debates with conspiracy theorists, when in fact Russo posits a conspiracy. It's just that Russo's conspiracy has only one shooter, and the shooter is Oswald.

Russo is no longer active, at least as far as I can tell, but he did a great deal of valuable research for his book Live By the Sword.

An interesting follow-up to Russo's research is the 2015-2017 investigation done by former CIA officer Robert Baer and his team, which included former LAPD detective Adam Bercovici, former FBI profiler Steve Gomez, and former Special Forces Army Ranger Marty Skovlund. In 2017, the History Channel aired Baer's seven-part documentary titled JFK Declassified: Tracking Oswald.

Here are some of the findings and discoveries made by Baer and his team:

-- Oswald received intelligence training and had some kind of connection with the U.S. Government after he left the Marines.

-- Oswald associated with anti-Castro Cubans and even trained with them in New Orleans. Oswald also associated with Cuban intelligence operatives.

-- The owner of Henry's Market, aka Henry's Bar, in New Orleans said Oswald came to the bar many times, and that the day after the assassination two Cubans came to the bar and told him Oswald was innocent and that Oswald had been framed.

-- Oswald's job at the Reilly Coffee Company in New Orleans was a "cover for action," that his job was a "front," a "cover." Oswald could have found a job much closer to his residence in New Orleans. Reilly's was across the street from the Crescent City Garage, which was used by federal agents as a kind of motor pool for their vehicles.

-- Adrian Alba, the owner of the Crescent City Garage, was telling the truth when he reported that he saw an FBI agent hand Oswald an envelope in front of the Reilly Coffee Company.

-- Silvia Odio told the truth when she reported that Oswald and two anti-Castro Cubans visited her residence in Dallas weeks before the assassination, and that one of the Cubans phoned her a few days later and told her that Oswald was an expert marksman and that Oswald had said that anti-Castro Cubans should have already killed JFK over the Bay of Bigs.

-- A Dallas police report noted that Oswald was seen visiting a house used by Alpha 66 members in Dallas. Alpha 66 was a violent anti-Castro and anti-JFK group. The house, located on Harlandale Avenue, was rented by Manuel Rodriguez Orcaberro, an Alpha 66 member who was known to be virulently anti-JFK.

-- Oswald was trying to reach the Harlandale house after the assassination. The bus transfer allegedly found on Oswald hours after he was arrested could have taken him to a point very close to the Harlandale house.

-- Oswald conspired with anti-Castro Cubans to kill JFK.

-- Oswald was the only shooter, but he was supported by Alpha 66 members and other anti-Castro Cubans. If Oswald had made it to the Harlandale house, Alpha 66 members would have helped him escape.

-- The Russians played no role in the assassination, and Oswald was not working for the Russians.

-- Castro was aware of the Alpha 66 plot to assassinate JFK but did nothing to stop it. He monitored it but did not intervene to prevent it.

Why would the Cubans even suggest to Oswald that he assassinate JFK when they couldn't have known about the opportunity fate would deal him. Maybe they said to him,, "Hey, Lee. On the off chance that somebody JFK happens to ride past your workplace in a slow moving open top car, why don't you whack him for us.".
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It bears repeating that the only way lone-gunman theorists can explain the throat wound's appearance is the shored-wound theory.

We get to decide why the throat wound looked the way it did to Dr. Perry. You don't get to limit our choices. The reason the throat wound was a neat, round hole is because FMJ bullets don't expand when passing through soft tissue. The will make a neat round hole both entering and exiting a body.
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This has been their explanation for decades now. My experience has been that they are quite surprised to learn that their theory is not only refuted by the location of the shirt slits but that forensic science tells us that shored wounds will not be small and neat.

I have heard that explanation but it was never my belief so I was never surprised. The reason exit wounds are usually larger than entrance wounds is because lead bullets and hollow points will expand while passing through a body. That doesn't happen with FMJ bullets.
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One of the historic contributions that Doug Horne has made to our knowledge of the JFK case is his confirmation of the fact that the first two drafts of the autopsy report said nothing about the throat wound being an exit wound for the back wound.

Nobody who recycled David Lifton's theory of post-mortem surgery is somebody who should be taken seriously. q[uote]

Another historic development came along with the ARRB materials, which reveal, among other things, that on the night of the autopsy, the autopsy doctors positively established through prolonged, extensive probing that the back wound was a shallow wound with no exit point. The pathologists even removed the chest organs and positioned the body "every which way" to facilitate the probing and to enable them to see where the probe was going. The disclosed materials reveal that men around the autopsy table could see the end of the probe pushing up against the lining of the chest cavity. As mentioned, James Jenkins told David Lifton the same thing long before the ARRB came along.
[/quote]

It is absolutely ridiculous to think a bullet would have only penetrated a few inches into JFK's back and then fallen out. Even lower velocity handgun ammo has far more penetration than that.
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