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JFK Assassination Discussion & Debate / Re: The smell of gunpowder
« Last post by John Corbett on Today at 04:29:02 PM »
SMG-

OK, I will say the HSCA said that JFK was "probably assassinated as a result of conspiracy." I used the word "likely."

JFK was probably assassinated as a result of the conspiracy, said the HSCA in 1979. The second official investigation into the JFKA.

---30---

This is AI slop below, but OK on facts---

AI Overview        

President Lyndon B. Johnson used the threat of a nuclear war that could "kill 40 million Americans in an hour" to pressure key leaders into joining the Warren Commission.

The Phone Calls and the "40 Million Dead" Threat

The Context: Immediately after the assassination of President John F. Kennedy in November 1963, LBJ feared that unverified public rumors and conspiracy theories blaming Soviet leader Nikita Khrushchev or Cuban leader Fidel Castro could escalate into an international military conflict.

The Argument: To convince reluctant officials—including Senator Richard Russell and Chief Justice Earl Warren—to serve on the investigating panel, Johnson argued that a credible, unified national investigation was vital to prove Lee Harvey Oswald acted alone and to prevent public panic from sparking a catastrophic nuclear war.

Persuading Earl Warren: Chief Justice Earl Warren initially turned down requests to lead the commission, believing that a sitting Supreme Court justice should not take orders or lead an inquiry for the executive branch. According to recorded telephone transcripts and historical accounts, Johnson summoned Warren to the White House, pressed him on the grave national security risks, and reportedly invoked FBI intelligence regarding potential foreign involvement. Warren ultimately broke down in tears and agreed to serve "for the good of America".

--30--

Elsewhere I have posted on State Dept employees in Mexico getting canned for wanting to pursue Havana leads into the JFKA.

Hoover, tight with LBJ, was working the LHO-LNT within 48 hours.

You are correct, the HSCA concluded LHO was the sole gunman who struck the target, even if there was a diversion, or fourth shot at JFK, from GK.

I have reservations about that conclusion. But each to his own.

Do you think AI is a reliable source of information. All AI does is collect all information it can find regarding a particular issue and regurgitates it. Since there is lots of crapola on the internet, it's hardly surprising that AI would repeat it. Garbage in, garbage out.

There is a reason they call it ARTIFICIAL intelligence. There is no actual intelligence. AI has no ability to think critically. It only knows what it has been told and it has been told a lot of  BS:
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Whaaaat?! LOL! Are you actually illiterate? Where in the world do you get the silly idea that the premise of this thread is that the Secret Service sent a bullet to Bethesda? Where? This is just some nonsense that you've made up, and now you're pretending that I've said this!

I got that from you. The premise of this thread which you spelled out in the OP is that Dr. Young received an envelope containing a bullet that had been found on the floor of the limo. If the Secret Service didn't send it to Bethesda, how did it get there? Did it just miracle its way over there?
Quote

The premise of this thread, which you surely must already know (unless you're illiterate), is that two Navy chiefs, Mills and Martinell, found a deformed bullet and some skull fragments in JFK's limo at the White House garage, that they gave the bullet and skull fragments to Dr. Young in an envelope, that Dr. Young examined the bullet and the skull fragments, and that Dr. Young then handed the envelope to Dr. Humes.

That's even sillier. The Secret Service had possession of the car and they were searching it for evidence. Do you really think they would let two Navy non-coms have access to the car. It seems you have embellished this story quite a bit. Cite your source that says these two NCOs were the ones who searched the limo and found the bullet and bone fragments. I'm betting right now that if you do actually cite a source, what it says is nowhere close to what you have claimed.
Quote

This dubious, comical dodge deserves further comment. You have floated this argument at least twice before, and I refuted it both times.

You haven't refuted jack. You spew  BS: and claim it is a refutation.
Quote

Yet, here you are repeating it again and saying nothing about the contrary facts that I presented to you.

You don't report facts. You present unconfirmed rumors or your FUBAR interpretations of what other people have said. Your postings are a bad joke that don't amount to anything.
Quote

You want readers to believe that it would be understandable if the autopsy doctors egregiously mislocated the entry wound because the skull was so badly damaged and because they peeled back the scalp during the autopsy.

Some points in reply (again):

-- The FPP majority, whom you cite as the final and unquestionable authority only when it suits you, said there was no bone whatsoever missing from the occipital bone. As I've pointed out to you several times in other threads, the FPP's diagrams of the head wound show no skull fragments missing from the occipital bone. Thus, the autopsy doctors would have had no problem whatsoever in seeing, examining, and measuring the entry wound in the occiput.

-- The fact that the autopsy pathologists reflected the scalp ("peeled back the scalp") makes it all the more absurd to claim that they could have confused a wound 1 cm above the EOP in the occipital bone for a wound 4 inches higher above the lambda and the lambdoid suture and to the right of the sagittal suture in the parietal bone. That would be as unbelievable and impossible a mistake as describing a wound in the middle of the wrist as a wound in the middle knuckle.

-- Dr. Finck, the forensic pathologist at the autopsy, explained that he examined both sides of the rear head entry wound after the scalp was reflected, and that he had photos taken of the interior side of the wound. (BTW, why do you suppose those photos never made it into the official set of autopsy photos?)

Here's what Finck said at the 1969 Clay Shaw trial when he was challenged by Assistant DA Al Oser with the Clark Panel's claim that the rear head entry wound was actually 10 cm (100 mm) higher than where the autopsy doctors placed it:

I saw that wound of entry in the back of the head at approximately 1 inch or 25 millimeters to the right and slightly above the external occipital protuberance, and it was definitely not 4 inches or 100 millimeters above it. (Transcript, State of Louisiana vs. Clay Shaw, February 29, 1969, https://www.jfk-assassination.net/russ/testimony/finckshaw.htm)

-- Dr. Boswell, one of the autopsy doctors and the head of the pathology department at Bethesda, explained to the HSCA and the ARRB that part of the rear head entry wound was contained in one of the late-arriving skull fragments. And, Dr. Ebersole, the autopsy radiologist, disclosed to the HSCA that one of those skull fragments was a large fragment of occipital bone.

-- Dr. Humes, the chief autopsy doctor, was the head of anatomic pathology at Bethesda. He, of all people, would not have confused a wound 1 cm above the EOP in the occipital bone for a wound above the lambda and the lambdoid suture and to the right of the sagittal suture in the parietal bone, especially with the scalp reflected. The EOP, the lambdoid suture, and the sagittal suture are impossible to miss on a human skull.

-- Six witnesses who saw JFK's head wounds up close said the rear head entry wound was near the EOP and/or the hairline (the EOP was about 1 inch above JFK's hairline). They were Roy Kellerman (SS agent who viewed the body in the morgue after the autopsy), Francis O'Neill (one of the two FBI agents at the autopsy), John Stringer (chief autopsy photographer), Floyd Riebe (assistant autopsy photographer), Dr. James Young (who witnessed most of the autopsy), and Richard Lipsey (an Army officer ordered to observe the autopsy).

Stringer's placement of the wound is especially important because he was in charge of photographing the wound. In his ARRB testimony, Stringer adamantly rejected the claim that the wound was at the cowlick site. He practically scoffed at the claim. Similarly, Stringer's assistant, Riebe, agreed that the entry wound was in the "right posterior occipital region."

-- There were four obvious reference points on the skull and one on the head that the autopsy doctors had available to help them locate and describe the entry wound: the EOP, the lambda, the lambdoid suture, the sagittal suture on the skull, and the hairline on the head. The lambdoid suture is plainly visible and is a clear boundary on the skull that separates the occipital bone from the parietal bone. The sagittal suture is equally obvious, and it stops at the lambda, i.e., at the top of the occiput.

Given these obvious reference points, it boggles the mind to try to imagine how three pathologists, one of them a forensic pathologist and one of them an anatomic pathologist, could have examined and measured a wound that was supposedly above the lambda, above the lambdoid suture, and to the right of the sagittal suture in the parietal bone and then could have somehow imagined that the wound was actually 4 inches lower, below the lambda, below the lambdoid suture, below the sagittal suture, and just slightly above the EOP in the occipital bone. No way.

-- If you believe the autopsy photos are authentic, then you must believe that there were no skull fragments missing from the occipital bone and no visible damage to the entire area of the back of the head. Thus, the autopsy doctors would have had no trouble whatsoever in detecting and examining the rear head entry wound.

Of course, literally dozens of witnesses said there was an obvious hole in the back of the head that included a sizable part of the right occipital bone and a sizable part of the rear section of the parietal bone. Some of these witnesses were the two Parkland nurses who cleaned the large head wound, packed it with gauze, and wrapped a sheet around it; the Parkland neurosurgeon, Dr. Kemp Clark, who examined the wound; Clint Hill, who observed the wound up close for several minutes on the way to Parkland and then saw the wound again when he came to the morgue for the express purpose of recording JFK's wounds; the two FBI agents at the autopsy; Floyd Riebe, the assistant autopsy photographer; and the three morticians who reassembled JFK's skull after the autopsy.

If the entry wound was slightly above and to the right of the EOP, the autopsy brain photos are undeniably fraudulent. Any bullet entering at the EOP site could not possibly have avoided tearing through the right occipital lobe and at least damaging the cerebellum, as the HSCA FPP correctly and emphatically pointed out. Yet, the brain photos show no damage whatsoever to the right occipital lobe or the cerebellum.

I'm not going to spend another hour doing a point-by-point rebuttal of your  BS: like I did last night. That is at least 55 minutes more than your nonsense deserved. It has been acknowledged that the Bethesda team and the FPP placed the entry wound in the back of the head in different locations. It doesn't matter which of them got it right. What matters is they all agreed the entry wound was in the back of the head and that fits the finding that Oswald fired the shot from the sniper's nest, which is what all the forensic evidence indates.
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The Education Forum sells itself as a Kennedy Assassination "Debate" Board...But then it employs a dirty trick where it allows a clique of insiders to say things like arguing with certain people is point-less...The forum practices that double standard as a way of protecting its favorite members from having to answer evidence that disproves them like in the case of Prayer Man...Or to protect abusive moderators from having to admit they mis-moderated...A gang of jolly researchers who happened to filter someone who out-argued them out of their midsts by the best humor-full means...The other dirty trick is pretending the board is seriously moderated when it is just some common internet poster with a moderator avatar trying to enforce the click while pretending he's serious about rules infractions...
4
I pressed the link and my house exploded. The CIA must not like the link.

I still have not pressed the link, as I still do not want to know the truth. Sign me perplexed.
5
The receipt says the missile was removed by Humes so it was not a bullet the Secret Service had recovered from the limo.

The premise of this thread was that the Secret Service had sent a bullet to Bethesda along with the bone fragments. The receipt does nothing to support that premise.

Whaaaat?! LOL! Are you actually illiterate? Where in the world do you get the silly idea that the premise of this thread is that the Secret Service sent a bullet to Bethesda? Where? This is just some nonsense that you've made up, and now you're pretending that I've said this!

The premise of this thread, which you surely must already know (unless you're illiterate), is that two Navy chiefs, Mills and Martinell, found a deformed bullet and some skull fragments in JFK's limo at the White House garage, that they gave the bullet and skull fragments to Dr. Young in an envelope, that Dr. Young examined the bullet and the skull fragments, and that Dr. Young then handed the envelope to Dr. Humes.

You fail to appreciate that the entire upper right side of JFK's skull was shattered and the autopsy team had peeled back the scalp during the autopsy.

This dubious, comical dodge deserves further comment. You have floated this argument at least twice before, and I refuted it both times. Yet, here you are repeating it again and saying nothing about the contrary facts that I presented to you. You want readers to believe that it would be understandable if the autopsy doctors egregiously mislocated the entry wound because the skull was so badly damaged and because they peeled back the scalp during the autopsy.

Some points in reply (again):

-- The FPP majority, whom you cite as the final and unquestionable authority only when it suits you, said there was no bone whatsoever missing from the occipital bone. As I've pointed out to you several times in other threads, the FPP's diagrams of the head wound show no skull fragments missing from the occipital bone. Thus, the autopsy doctors would have had no problem whatsoever in seeing, examining, and measuring the entry wound in the occiput.

-- The fact that the autopsy pathologists reflected the scalp ("peeled back the scalp") makes it all the more absurd to claim that they could have confused a wound 1 cm above the EOP in the occipital bone for a wound 4 inches higher above the lambda and the lambdoid suture and to the right of the sagittal suture in the parietal bone. That would be as unbelievable and impossible a mistake as describing a wound in the middle of the wrist as a wound in the middle knuckle.

-- Dr. Finck, the forensic pathologist at the autopsy, explained that he examined both sides of the rear head entry wound after the scalp was reflected, and that he had photos taken of the interior side of the wound. (BTW, why do you suppose those photos never made it into the official set of autopsy photos?)

Here's what Finck said at the 1969 Clay Shaw trial when he was challenged by Assistant DA Al Oser with the Clark Panel's claim that the rear head entry wound was actually 10 cm (100 mm) higher than where the autopsy doctors placed it:

I saw that wound of entry in the back of the head at approximately 1 inch or 25 millimeters to the right and slightly above the external occipital protuberance, and it was definitely not 4 inches or 100 millimeters above it. (Transcript, State of Louisiana vs. Clay Shaw, February 29, 1969, https://www.jfk-assassination.net/russ/testimony/finckshaw.htm)

-- Dr. Boswell, one of the autopsy doctors and the head of the pathology department at Bethesda, explained to the HSCA and the ARRB that part of the rear head entry wound was contained in one of the late-arriving skull fragments. And, Dr. Ebersole, the autopsy radiologist, disclosed to the HSCA that one of those skull fragments was a large fragment of occipital bone.

-- Dr. Humes, the chief autopsy doctor, was the head of anatomic pathology at Bethesda. He, of all people, would not have confused a wound 1 cm above the EOP in the occipital bone for a wound above the lambda and the lambdoid suture and to the right of the sagittal suture in the parietal bone, especially with the scalp reflected. The EOP, the lambdoid suture, and the sagittal suture are impossible to miss on a human skull.

-- Six witnesses who saw JFK's head wounds up close said the rear head entry wound was near the EOP and/or the hairline (the EOP was about 1 inch above JFK's hairline). They were Roy Kellerman (SS agent who viewed the body in the morgue after the autopsy), Francis O'Neill (one of the two FBI agents at the autopsy), John Stringer (chief autopsy photographer), Floyd Riebe (assistant autopsy photographer), Dr. James Young (who witnessed most of the autopsy), and Richard Lipsey (an Army officer ordered to observe the autopsy).

Stringer's placement of the wound is especially important because he was in charge of photographing the wound. In his ARRB testimony, Stringer adamantly rejected the claim that the wound was at the cowlick site. He practically scoffed at the claim. Similarly, Stringer's assistant, Riebe, agreed that the entry wound was in the "right posterior occipital region."

-- There were four obvious reference points on the skull and one on the head that the autopsy doctors had available to help them locate and describe the entry wound: the EOP, the lambda, the lambdoid suture, the sagittal suture on the skull, and the hairline on the head. The lambdoid suture is plainly visible and is a clear boundary on the skull that separates the occipital bone from the parietal bone. The sagittal suture is equally obvious, and it stops at the lambda, i.e., at the top of the occiput.

Given these obvious reference points, it boggles the mind to try to imagine how three pathologists, one of them a forensic pathologist and one of them an anatomic pathologist, could have examined and measured a wound that was supposedly above the lambda, above the lambdoid suture, and to the right of the sagittal suture in the parietal bone and then could have somehow imagined that the wound was actually 4 inches lower, below the lambda, below the lambdoid suture, below the sagittal suture, and just slightly above the EOP in the occipital bone. No way.

-- If you believe the autopsy photos are authentic, then you must believe that there were no skull fragments missing from the occipital bone and no visible damage to the entire area of the back of the head. Thus, the autopsy doctors would have had no trouble whatsoever in detecting and examining the rear head entry wound.

Of course, literally dozens of witnesses said there was an obvious hole in the back of the head that included a sizable part of the right occipital bone and a sizable part of the rear section of the parietal bone. Some of these witnesses were the two Parkland nurses who cleaned the large head wound, packed it with gauze, and wrapped a sheet around it; the Parkland neurosurgeon, Dr. Kemp Clark, who examined the wound; Clint Hill, who observed the wound up close for several minutes on the way to Parkland and then saw the wound again when he came to the morgue for the express purpose of recording JFK's wounds; the two FBI agents at the autopsy; Floyd Riebe, the assistant autopsy photographer; and the three morticians who reassembled JFK's skull after the autopsy.

If the entry wound was slightly above and to the right of the EOP, the autopsy brain photos are undeniably fraudulent. Any bullet entering at the EOP site could not possibly have avoided tearing through the right occipital lobe and at least damaging the cerebellum, as the HSCA FPP correctly and emphatically pointed out. Yet, the brain photos show no damage whatsoever to the right occipital lobe or the cerebellum.
6
BS: lame
Dudman was told directly and is substantiated by the other witnesses.
The Day quote is a first hand statement to the newspaper.

hearsay/ˈhirˌsā/
"Hearsay is information or a statement you heard from someone else rather than something you saw or experienced yourself."

There is nothing hear-say about either one.
 :D You just made that up.

Still waiting for you to name just one person who is on record as saying they saw a bullet taken from the grass. In lieu of that, it is nothing more than a rumor.
7
hear·say
[ˈhɪəseɪ]

noun
hearsay (noun)
information received from other people which cannot be substantiated; rumour:

Did Dudman substantiate that a bullet was taken from the grass? No, he only told us what he heard, or more to the point, what he thinks he was told. Often people misinterpret what they are told. Either way, Dudman's account is hearsay.
I have yet to see you, MTG, or anybody else provide a direct quote from Day saying he saw a bullet in the grass. I can believe after being told there was a bullet hole that he might have estimated the distance. That doesn't mean Day confirmed there had been a bullet in the grass.

 BS: lame
Dudman was told directly and is substantiated by the other witnesses.
The Day quote is a first hand statement to the newspaper.

hearsay/ˈhirˌsā/
"Hearsay is information or a statement you heard from someone else rather than something you saw or experienced yourself."

There is nothing hear-say about either one.
 :D You just made that up.
 
8
A cop told him directly - how is that hearsay?

hear·say
[ˈhɪəseɪ]

noun
hearsay (noun)
information received from other people which cannot be substantiated; rumour:

Did Dudman substantiate that a bullet was taken from the grass? No, he only told us what he heard, or more to the point, what he thinks he was told. Often people misinterpret what they are told. Either way, Dudman's account is hearsay.
Quote

He said it directly to the Dallas Times Herald - in fact, he gave an estimation of yardage - Record of it was printed in the paper on 11/23
 :D Your faulted opinion of what is or isn't hear-say are just lame excuses that don't mean very much

I have yet to see you, MTG, or anybody else provide a direct quote from Day saying he saw a bullet in the grass. I can believe after being told there was a bullet hole that he might have estimated the distance. That doesn't mean Day confirmed there had been a bullet in the grass.
9
You said three witnesses said they saw a bullet. One the second page of this thread you posted this:

Richard Dudman | The Republic 12/21/63
"A group of police officers were examining the area at the side of the street where the President was hit,
and a police inspector told me they had just found another bullet in the grass.“

Dallas Times Herald 11/23/63
"Dallas Police Lt. J. C. Day of the crime lab estimated the distance from the sixth-floor window...
to the spot where one of the bullets was recovered at 100 yards.”

You cited Dudman saying somebody told him he saw a bullet. That's hearsay. Dudman did not say he saw a bullet.

There is no record of Day saying he saw a bullet. There is no record of anyone saying he saw a bullet. All of this nonsense comes from embellishments of things people said they heard, not something they actually saw.

We can safely label claims that somebody saw a bullet in the grass or saw a bullet taken from the grass as total  BS:

Quote
You cited Dudman saying somebody told him he saw a bullet. That's hearsay. Dudman did not say he saw a bullet.

A cop told him directly - how is that hearsay?

Quote
There is no record of Day saying he saw a bullet. There is no record of anyone saying he saw a bullet. All of this nonsense comes from embellishments of things people said they heard, not something they actually saw.

He said it directly to the Dallas Times Herald - in fact, he gave an estimation of yardage - Record of it was printed in the paper on 11/23
 :D Your faulted opinion of what is or isn't hear-say are just lame excuses that don't mean very much

10
What dodge? U are already aware two of them have been posted on the second page of this thread.
 :D Are stalling for time or is it just lame excuses to somehow hold it together?

You said three witnesses confirm a bullet in the grass. On the second page of this thread you posted this:

Richard Dudman | The Republic 12/21/63
"A group of police officers were examining the area at the side of the street where the President was hit,
and a police inspector told me they had just found another bullet in the grass.“

Dallas Times Herald 11/23/63
"Dallas Police Lt. J. C. Day of the crime lab estimated the distance from the sixth-floor window...
to the spot where one of the bullets was recovered at 100 yards.”

You cited Dudman saying somebody told him he saw a bullet. That's hearsay. Dudman did not say he saw a bullet.

There is no record of Day saying he saw a bullet. There is no record of anyone saying he saw a bullet. All of this nonsense comes from embellishments of things people said they heard, not something they actually saw.

We can safely label claims that somebody saw a bullet in the grass or saw a bullet taken from the grass as total  BS:
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