JFK Assassination Forum

No.

To get to her bus stop "some three minutes earlier" than the time the bus was due by would mean she would get to the bus stop at around 1:09 (for the 1:12 bus) or 1:19 (for the 1:22 bus).

That assumes that Markham knew the official timetable and that the busses would always run on time. The reality is that Markham, in her mind, needed to be at the bus stop at 1:15 to get her bus!

Mr. BALL. You know what time you usually get your bus, don't you?
Mrs. MARKHAM. 1:15.

Busses seldom run exactly on time, so trying to argue that they did in this instance is disingenuous. Markham, in her mind, clearly needed to be at the bus stop every day at 1:15 and she would get on the first bus on her route that came along. That's how it works in the real world.

Nice try, but that's not what is shown in a video you recently took part in, which showed a map with Markham being stationary for some time at 10th and Patton.
I just can't remember which video that was, but perhaps you know. Beyond that, you can imagine it all you want, it's still self-serving speculation.

Markham tells a different story;

In her statement to FBI Agent Robert Barrett on 3/16/64 she said "she had hoped to catch a bus at about 1:15 PM" According to Barrett "She stopped at this intersection in order to allow a police squad car and some other cars pass by.

Mr. BALL. You know what time you usually get your bus, don't you?
Mrs. MARKHAM. 1:15.
Mr. BALL. So it was before 1:15?
Mrs. MARKHAM. Yes, it was.
Mr. BALL. When you came to the corner of Patton and 10th Street--first of all, what side of the street were you walking on?
Mrs. MARKHAM. Now you have got me mixed up on all my streets. I was on the opposite of where this man was.
Mr. BALL. Well, you were walking along the street--
Mrs. MARKHAM. On the street.
Mr. BALL. On Patton, you were going toward Jefferson?
Mrs. MARKHAM. Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. And you were on the right- or left-hand side of the street as you were walking south?
Mrs. MARKHAM. That would be on the left.
Mr. BALL. Your right.
Mrs. MARKHAM. Yes, it would be right.
Mr. BALL. Right-hand side, wouldn't it? When you came to the corner did you have to stop before you crossed 10th Street?
Mrs. MARKHAM. Yes, I did.
Mr. BALL. Why?
Mrs. MARKHAM. On account the traffic was coming.
Mr. BALL. And you stopped there on the corner?
Mrs. MARKHAM. Yes, sir.

If Markham wasn't stopped at the intersection by Tippit's cruiser passing by, she would have had no plausible reason for stopping. She was on her way to catch her usual bus and only had minutes to spare. That's not a moment for sightseeing!

By the time she actually gets to the corner, Tippit is pulling over or has just pulled over.  She sees the guy who was walking then walk over to the passenger side of the car and watched as the conversation between the two takes place.  Because of this, instead of continuing to walk on her merry way, she stands there at the corner wondering why a police officer in his squad car has pulled alongside a guy who was walking on the sidewalk.

And risk missing her usual bus? For a police officer calling a civilian and having a conversation with him? Really?

We can't assume that Markham was trying to catch a bus at 1:15.  There's no reason to assume that, especially since we know there was no 1:15 bus.

We don't have to assume it. Markham herself told us!

By the way, my opinion is that the shooting occurred around 1:15:30(ish).

So now you disagree with Dale Myers?

That assumes that Markham knew the official timetable and that the busses would always run on time. The reality is that Markham, in her mind, needed to be at the bus stop at 1:15 to get her bus!

Mr. BALL. You know what time you usually get your bus, don't you?
Mrs. MARKHAM. 1:15.

Busses seldom run exactly on time, so trying to argue that they did in this instance is disingenuous. Markham, in her mind, clearly needed to be at the bus stop every day at 1:15 and she would get on the first bus on her route that came along. That's how it works in the real world.

Again, the police tapes (combined with the actions of witnesses like Mary Wright, Barbara Davis and L.J. Lewis, who contacted the police shortly after the shooting) tell us that Markham was NOT going to arrive at Patton and Jefferson at 1:15.  She was approaching Patton and Tenth at 1:15.

Nice try, but that's not what is shown in a video you recently took part in, which showed a map with Markham being stationary for some time at 10th and Patton.
I just can't remember which video that was, but perhaps you know. Beyond that, you can imagine it all you want, it's still self-serving speculation.

You may be thinking of Fred Litwin's "On The Trail Of Delusion" podcast.  I was not responsible for the graphics, though I don't have a problem with them.

You asked for my opinion and then ridicule me by calling it "self-serving speculation".  You really are a dickhead, aren't ya?

Markham tells a different story;

In her statement to FBI Agent Robert Barrett on 3/16/64 she said "she had hoped to catch a bus at about 1:15 PM" According to Barrett "She stopped at this intersection in order to allow a police squad car and some other cars pass by.

Mr. BALL. You know what time you usually get your bus, don't you?
Mrs. MARKHAM. 1:15.
Mr. BALL. So it was before 1:15?
Mrs. MARKHAM. Yes, it was.
Mr. BALL. When you came to the corner of Patton and 10th Street--first of all, what side of the street were you walking on?
Mrs. MARKHAM. Now you have got me mixed up on all my streets. I was on the opposite of where this man was.
Mr. BALL. Well, you were walking along the street--
Mrs. MARKHAM. On the street.
Mr. BALL. On Patton, you were going toward Jefferson?
Mrs. MARKHAM. Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. And you were on the right- or left-hand side of the street as you were walking south?
Mrs. MARKHAM. That would be on the left.
Mr. BALL. Your right.
Mrs. MARKHAM. Yes, it would be right.
Mr. BALL. Right-hand side, wouldn't it? When you came to the corner did you have to stop before you crossed 10th Street?
Mrs. MARKHAM. Yes, I did.
Mr. BALL. Why?
Mrs. MARKHAM. On account the traffic was coming.
Mr. BALL. And you stopped there on the corner?
Mrs. MARKHAM. Yes, sir.

If Markham wasn't stopped at the intersection by Tippit's cruiser passing by, she would have had no plausible reason for stopping. She was on her way to catch her usual bus and only had minutes to spare. That's not a moment for sightseeing!

Clearly YOU aren't aware that Jack Tatum would be approaching the intersection of Tenth & Patton while Tippit and his killer were talking.  Markham described "traffic was coming".  She didn't say a police car was coming.  Or... are we now accepting everything the FBI (in this case, Barrett) says is 100% true?  If that's the case, then the bag was indeed three feet long by six inches wide, according to Linnie Mae Randle (per Bookhout).

We don't have to assume it. Markham herself told us!

Markham tells us no such thing.  You're putting words into her mouth.  That's bad form.

To believe that the bag found on the 6th floor was the one Oswald carried to the TSBD with a rifle in it on Friday morning, you have to believe;

- There was indeed a rifle stored in Ruth Paine's garage on 11/21/63
- Oswald figured he needed a paper bag despite the fact that he had far less conspicious duffel bags at Ruth Paine's garage.
- Oswald made the bag at the wrapping department of the TSBD on Thursday afternoon without being seen or being missed from his job on the 6th floor.
- Then he folded the bag and concealed it on his person in such a way that Frazier did not see it.
- Then he took it to Ruth Paine's house and hid it there until the next.
- At some point in time he dismantled the rifle, without anybody noticing, and put the individual pieces in the bag which he now had unfolded. And all that without leaving even one scratch on the inside of the bag.
- Then he carried the bag to Frazier's car and placed it on the back seat.
-  Upon arrival at the TSBD car park, he picked up the package and placed it in the cup of his hand and under his armpit. It was at this time when he left one single parcial print on the package.
- He then took it up to the 6th floor, hid it there somewhere, until he needed the rifle. He then took out the pieces of the weapon and put it together again.
- After that he did not decide to dispose of the bag No, instead he folded it up and allegedly left it in the corner of the sniper's nest.

All that with leaving only one partial print! Go figure.

But there is more;

On Friday evening Detective R.D. Lewis ran a polygraph of Buell Wesley Frazier and found he was being truthful. While being polygraphed Frazier was shown the 6th floor bag and instantly denied it was the bag he had seen Oswald carry, which he described as a crickly brown paper sack. In his FD 302, FBI Vincent E. Drain writes, on 11/29/63, that the DPD is of the opinion that the 6th floor bag was used by Oswald to carry the rifle in. Drain concludes that the paper referred by Lewis is not a gun case at all!

So, you also have to believe that Frazier somehow managed to fool the polygraph and went against the wishes of Day and Fritz to identify the heavy duty paper bag. Not only did he do so while he was still considered to be a suspect but also had no reason to lie about the bag he had seen. At that point in time Frazier wouldn't even be able to know what the significance of the paper bag would be in the future.

Oh, btw, according to the same report by Drain, Lt Day said that the paper sack of the type described by Frazier was not recovered by the Police Department. It's possible, but improbably, that it was recovered by the Homicide Bureau. If so, they do not know anything about it in the Crime Laboratory of the Dallas Police Department. In other words, Day hasn't got a clue what happened or could have happend to the (how Frazier described it, according to Day) "thin, flimsy, sack like the one purchased in a dime store"

Now, I would love to read the LN explanation(s) for the above.

I think it stands for New Frontier Video, a company created by Groden back in the day.

Thanks

The Brown Paper Bag

I’ve only been able to find CE 142 photo of the bag after it was processed by Latona using the silver nitrate and I can’t see any indication that the open end was ever twisted around the barrel like Dan Rathers bag appears.

There is a CE 626 photo somewhere. Is that a photo of the bag BEFORE the bag got darkened and did it have a palm print in the middle of the bag or was the photo I saw a  Toni Fratini and or an Alan Ford fake photo?

The way Dan Rather carried the package as he walked away , it can’t even be seen BETWEEN his arm and body . Nor  can  the package be seen in the palm of his right hand.

On the other hand when BW Fraziers demonstrated with a bag that is shorter and the top of bag wedged under armpit and bottom in his palm of right hand, it is EASY to see the bag between his arm and body and EASY to see the bottom of the package in the palm of his hand as he walks away.

IDK about Frazier. But I noticed the protruding upper part of the package beyond Dan Rathers shoulder even though it was twisted.

I think it stands for New Frontier Video, a company created by Groden back in the day.