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JFK Assassination Discussion & Debate / Re: The Dealey Plaza Storm Drain Sewer Theory 1992
« Last post by Ted Sager on Today at 02:11:18 AM »The south storm drain would have been an entirely logical choice for a shooting position. It provided concealment, an excellent view of the target, and a secure means of escape. It would have been the logical choice for a skilled assassin.
Yet, WC apologists howl and scoff whenever the south storm drain is mentioned as a possible shooting location. They prefer to believe, or say they believe, that the one and only shooting location was the sixth-floor window, never mind that the back wound and the rear head entry wound do not even come close to aligning back to that window, and never mind that the ammo that hit JFK's head could not have been the ammo that the supposed sixth-floor gunman allegedly used.
shot from south drain was impossible. Too much angle for throat shot, too close for head shot. Car was facing straight at drain not allowing the throat shot. Too closr for head shot at Ks leaning head.
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JFK Assassination Discussion & Debate / Re: The First Shot
« Last post by Ted Sager on Today at 02:06:51 AM »[quote author=Dan O'meara First shot fired down at 60 degree down hit no one at that angle. Ks back shot was upward from storm drain at the corner. pass through slug hit by mirror making dent.
link=topic=2723.msg98908#msg98908 date=1600942302]
I'm assuming you're talking about the moment JFK is shot for the first time causing his fists to go up to his throat. The question is, if we assume there are three shots from the TSBD, which shot is this - first, second or third?
IMO the shot that caused JFK to raise his fists to his throat occurred at z223. The opening post of this thread is an assertion that no shot took place before z207. Less than one second after this (z223) Kennedy is hit. This leads me to conclude the first shot fired from the TSBD is the one that hits Kennedy in the throat. Quite a number of "ear-witnesses" describe a pattern to the shots - shot, pause, two shots closer together. If this is the case the second shot must be the head-shot with the third shot coming shortly after that.
[/quote]
link=topic=2723.msg98908#msg98908 date=1600942302]
I'm assuming you're talking about the moment JFK is shot for the first time causing his fists to go up to his throat. The question is, if we assume there are three shots from the TSBD, which shot is this - first, second or third?
IMO the shot that caused JFK to raise his fists to his throat occurred at z223. The opening post of this thread is an assertion that no shot took place before z207. Less than one second after this (z223) Kennedy is hit. This leads me to conclude the first shot fired from the TSBD is the one that hits Kennedy in the throat. Quite a number of "ear-witnesses" describe a pattern to the shots - shot, pause, two shots closer together. If this is the case the second shot must be the head-shot with the third shot coming shortly after that.
[/quote]
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General Discussion And Debate (Any Topic) / Re: Am I the only one...
« Last post by John Corbett on Yesterday at 10:15:51 PM »The left has hijacked this issue by putting the focus on the criminal instead of the victim. As a result, hangings and other forms of effective capital punishment are largely a political nonstarter. It's a hopeless case to convince enough people to go back to the good old days. Lethal injection is viewed as a more "humane" manner of death. So some middle of the road types are still willing to entertain it.
You're probably right. Since it takes 25-30 years now to exhaust the appeals process, the method of execution is the least of the problems we face administering justice.
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General Discussion And Debate (Any Topic) / Re: Donald Trump is a real piece of Uh Oh Uh Oh Uh Oh Uh Oh
« Last post by Michael Capasse on Yesterday at 10:08:23 PM »Again, there is no war. There is not even a conflict. No one is fighting. The "deal" would not have prevented Iran from getting a nuclear weapon. It would only have delayed it for a few years until - wait for it - now. After which they would be free to do anything they wanted. Trump spared us that.
They were doing inspections everything was fine TRUMP started a war he can't get out of.
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Again, there is no war.
tell it to the Iranians5
General Discussion And Debate (Any Topic) / Re: Donald Trump is a real piece of Uh Oh Uh Oh Uh Oh Uh Oh
« Last post by Richard Smith on Yesterday at 09:53:58 PM »Then Trump tore up and started a war.
...and he can't get out of it.
Again, there is no war. There is not even a conflict. No one is fighting. The "deal" would not have prevented Iran from getting a nuclear weapon. It would only have delayed it for a few years until - wait for it - now. After which they would be free to do anything they wanted. Trump spared us that.
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General Discussion And Debate (Any Topic) / Re: Donald Trump is a real piece of Uh Oh Uh Oh Uh Oh Uh Oh
« Last post by Michael Capasse on Yesterday at 09:47:47 PM »Even liberal icon Chuck Schumer opposed Obama's "deal."
"Even more importantly, the agreement would allow Iran, after ten to fifteen years, to be a nuclear threshold state with the blessing of the world community. Iran would have a green light to be as close, if not closer to possessing a nuclear weapon than it is today. And the ability to thwart Iran if it is intent on becoming a nuclear power would have less moral and economic force."
Then Trump tore up and started a war.
...and he can't get out of it.
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General Discussion And Debate (Any Topic) / Re: Am I the only one...
« Last post by Richard Smith on Yesterday at 09:39:26 PM »This is why I said we should abandon lethal injections and go back to more traditional methods of execution: hanging, electric chair, gas chamber, and even firing squads. I don't recall problems with any of these.
About 30 years ago in Columbus, Ohio, a paroled murderer named Alva Campbell who was jailed for a subsequent crime, feigned paralysis and was being transported to a hospital by a single female deputy. He overpowered her and took her gun which he used to carjack an 18 year old kid named Charles Dials who had come to the county building to pay a traffic ticket. After having the kid drive him around for a while, he forced the kid to change clothes with him, then shot him dead. When he was arrested, he bragged about how he had taken the kid's whole life away from him. It took over 20 years before the court's allowed Campbell's execution to take place. By that time, he was terminally ill from cancer. They couldn't even find a usable vein to put the needle in his arm and the execution was called off. Any of the above named methods of execution could have been carried out effectively, but because we insist on "humanely" putting these scumbags to death, Campbell escaped even belated justice. He died a few months later.
Contrast that with the executions of Dick Hickock and Perry Smith, the two infamous In Cold Blood murderers who slaughtered four members of the Clutter family in November of 1959. They were also the prime suspects in the murder of another family of four in Florida while on the run from the Clutter murders. They were sentenced in Kansas to hang and their executions were carried out in April of 1965. Hickock was hanged first and it was 23 minutes between the time the trap door dropped and he was pronounced dead. Smith took 17 minutes to die. A hanging is supposed to dislocate the 3rd and 4th cervical vertebrae and sever the cerebral cortex making death instantaneous. That doesn't always happen and apparently didn't happen with either of these men. Were they conscious during the time they were hanging? Did they suffer? I don't know, but I sure hope so.
When people like this are executed, the number one priority should be that their death is certain. Whether they suffer or not during the process should be at most a minor concern. Does anyone think scum like this cared whether their victims suffered. Maybe Hickock and Perry should have been executed the same manner as their victims, with a shotgun blast to the head at close range.
The left has hijacked this issue by putting the focus on the criminal instead of the victim. As a result, hangings and other forms of effective capital punishment are largely a political nonstarter. It's a hopeless case to convince enough people to go back to the good old days. Lethal injection is viewed as a more "humane" manner of death. So some middle of the road types are still willing to entertain it.
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General Discussion And Debate (Any Topic) / Re: Donald Trump is a real piece of Uh Oh Uh Oh Uh Oh Uh Oh
« Last post by Richard Smith on Yesterday at 09:34:51 PM »It was funds that belonged to Iran and were frozen in foreign banks due to international sanctions.
Iran followed the rules of the 2015 agreement. Regular inspections provided proof of no nuclear arms program.
Turn OFF Fox News.
Even liberal icon Chuck Schumer opposed Obama's "deal."
"Even more importantly, the agreement would allow Iran, after ten to fifteen years, to be a nuclear threshold state with the blessing of the world community. Iran would have a green light to be as close, if not closer to possessing a nuclear weapon than it is today. And the ability to thwart Iran if it is intent on becoming a nuclear power would have less moral and economic force."
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JFK Assassination Discussion & Debate / Re: The Forgotten Rifle Test: The HSCA's Rifle Test
« Last post by John Corbett on Yesterday at 08:58:44 PM »@MTG: the older experimental shooting using the 30ft tower and stationary targets seems to suggest it was no easy feat what the TSBD shooter achieved ( if he is the only shooter)with a hit at Z312.
However a few of the CBS time trial shooters managed to score 2 hits ( albeit not head) in less than 6 secs. And ONE of them ( the old engineer) seems to have scored 3 hits in 5.1 secs according to the video narrator.
The CBS test shooting was boneheaded in that they only allowed the shooters 5.6 seconds to fire three shots, an unreasonable constraint. The WC did allow for that possibility but that was no its conclusion.
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However…
IDK if they really did score hits on the target or not because there was no zoomed in camera on the target to show holes appearing nearly simultaneous with the rifle firing.
Also because they used a RED silhouette on a square black ( or dark blue) target that was on a WHITE track, the result is not quite conclusive as those things may have aided the shooters to easier track.
Question: Was the ONE CBS shooter apparently scoring 3 hits in 5.1 seconds (recorded by camera firing an MC rifle and using zeroed functional scope), ever brought before the HSCA and interviewed personally or asked to repeat his shooting feat with an HSCA group of observers in real time ?
Attempts to recreate a shooting using erroneous assumptions are quite silly. The silliest assumption is that Oswald fired 3 shots in 5.6 seconds.
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If not then at best the CBS experiment imo only proves that a person can fire an MC rifle 3 times in less than 6 seconds.
Yes, that's both possible and difficult with a bolt action rifle. Oswald wasn't hampered by that time constraint. He could fire his weapon using whatever timeframe he thought gave him the best chance to score a kill shot on JFK. He killed JFK with his third shot which by my analysis was fired 8.9 seconds (163 frames) after his first shot.
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Is this enough to establish that the TSBD shooter could NOT possibly have fired the MC rifle in less than 7 secs and scored a body hit at Z233 and a head shot at Z312 and in the 1…..2..3 pattern that 75% witness recall?
I'd say it was difficult but not impossible. An additional 3 seconds of time to fire all three shots would make it much more doable. It gives adequate time for aiming the rifle.
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Given Dan O’mearas theory that the 3 shot sequence from a TSBD 6th floor shooter begins with the 1st shot as a hit at Z233 and the 2nd shot then 4.8 secs later at Z312, and then the 3rd shot could have been fired as fast as 2 secs later, if not aimed, then it IS possible to replicate the 1….2..3 pattern in 6.5 seconds.
I have yet to see any theory from Dan O'Meara that makes any sense.
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If this assassination was a pre planned shooting to be performed by an expert solitary shooter , then choosing Dealey Plaza as arena , the TSBD 6th floor as the platform, and a moving target situation , is NOT what professional hit man ( or team) would likely do. It’s introducing too many variables.
It was selected because it was the opportunity that was presented to Oswald. It was a crime of opportunity. Had the motorcade not been routed past his workplace, I doubt Oswald would have even attempted the assassination. Since he didn't drive, moving around Dallas with a rifle would have been problematic although he did manage to get to Walker's house and back home with the rifle so I won't say he couldn't have tried. The routing of the motorcade made it much easier for him.
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The simple more easy way with less variables would be to select an arena where JFK is standing on a podium giving a speech. And elevation of the shooter nearly at same elevation as the podium. A single FMJ 6.5 or 7.62 bullet laced with cyanide fired at only about 1200 ft /sec velocity ( subsonic ammo) with rifle with a suppressor , would not have been heard at all.
One shot one kill, no rifle left behind , shooter has easier escape.
Such an opportunity presented itself that morning in front of the Ft. Worth hotel. Had plotters selected the shooting location, that would have been a much better one. Oswald didn't select his shooting location. It was dealt to him.
A professional assassin wouldn't have needed a cyanide bullet for one shot, one kill. He would also likely leave behind an untraceable rifle rather than try to flee with it.
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So if a conspiracy why did the shooter ( or2) choose Dealey Plaza and the TSBD 6th floor ?
Good questions. I have yet to see good answers for them.
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JFK Assassination Discussion & Debate / Re: The First Shot
« Last post by John Corbett on Yesterday at 08:38:22 PM »This thread has convinced me at least that it is not only just possible but reasonably probable that an MC rifle could have been fired 3 times in less than 7 seconds and that JFK and JC were hit at Z233 and JFK was hit at Z313 AND the shots could be in the pattern of 1…..2.3 as per 75% witness recall.
The 1st shot as a hit at Z233 fits much closer than either the Z190 1st shot idea by Andrew Mason or the LN 1st shot which missed theory at Z-140 or earlier.
How do you explain the simultaneous upward arm movements by JFK and JBC at Z226?
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The criticisms of a Z223 1st shot seem to be:
A The shooter would not have waited until Z224 to try a 1st shot
Do you think that was the first shot. [/quote]
B. SS agent Hickey moving at Z143 is indication he heard a rifle preceding Z233. [/quote]
There are lots of reasons Hickey could have been moving, a gunshot being just one of them.
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C. The shooter having scored the head shot at Z312 would not have fired a 3rd shot 2 secs after Z312.
Oswald had chambered his last round but chose not to fire it, probably for the reason stated.
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D. The Willis girl stopped running completely by Z200 therefore a shot must have been fired before Z223.
Since she was running on grass which might have still been damp from the morning rain, it would have been difficult for her to make a sudden stop. She began slowing down a split second after JBC started turning his head to the right. Coincidence? I don't think so.
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IMO, these criticisms are not well supported and presume that the reactions of the Willis girl and SS agent Hickey were due to the sound of a rifle shot vs some other stimulus.
My own belief is Willis' slow down was a reaction to a gunshot and Hickey's movement preceded the first shot.
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So Imo Dan has presented a logical and plausible 3 shot scenario which fits with witness perception of last 2 shots fired rapidly and all 3 shots in as little as 6 secs. This fits closer with Harold Norman’s 4-5 sec recollection than any other proposal offered by LNs imo. It explains lack of awareness of SS agents prior to Z207.
I don't trust any witness' estimate of the elapsed time or the spacing of the shots that can't be corroborated. The event caught everyone by surprise and there were competing noises, the roar of the motorcycles and the cheers of the crowd. Lots of theories can be supported depending on which witnesses one chooses to believe, but the assassination only happened one way which means a lot of witnesses had to get some important details wrong. All but one. That witness is Zapruder's camera.
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