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JFK Assassination Discussion & Debate / Re: The First Shot
« Last post by John Corbett on Today at 11:05:49 PM »
The Robert Hughes film shows something white moving in the Sniper's Nest window as the limo turns onto Elm Street. Oswald was wearing a white t-shirt that day, so it's reasonable to assume that what we're seeing is Oswald getting ready to fire his first (missing everything) shot. 

IF Oswald fired it half-a-second before Zapruder resumed filming at Z-133 (as is indicated by the nearly simultaneous, rapid-but-non-startle head movements of everyone in the limo but Greer), the limo would have been at a sharp downward angle to him, and this sharp downward angle may have necessitated the short-rifle's muzzle's being inside the building when he fired it.

I agree Oswald is moving in the window in the Hughes film. The image is too blurry to draw any conclusion as to how he is moving and it gives us no indication as to when he fired the first shot.
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Seems like a perfectly reasonable question.
So Dr. Shaw’s diagram is so wrong as to justify calling it dumb?
3
Yes.  The wallet itself remained in Fritz' office the entire time.  I should've said Westbrook, Barrett and the wallet were all three back at headquarters at the same time, as opposed to Westbrook's office at the same time.

You still haven't thought about it.

Bentley said (I'm paraphrasing) in his report of 3 December 1963 that he gave the wallet to Baker at the same time as Hill turned over the initialed revolver to Baker and Fritz. According to Hill, in his report, this happened at around 3:15 PM, which is only minutes before the items were submitted to the evidence room.

Guy Rose was the first officer to talk to Oswald, just minutes after he was brought into the homicide office. An unidentified person had given Rose a wallet which he claimed belonged to the suspect. This was the wallet in which Rose found the Hidell ID.

So, if the wallet was in Fritz' office the entire time since Bentley and Hill brought it in, how in the world is it possible that Guy Rose was given a wallet just minutes after Oswald was brought into the homicide bureau?
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The worst evasion here is you avoiding answering how the man you are labeling Shelley has an obviously too stocky body to be Shelley...

   They go TOGETHER. You have to place Lovelady walking down the Elm St Ext too. You can't do it. Putting those 2 Guys in that position on the Elm St Extension, only 20 seconds after the kill shot, means they came from 1 spot. They came from inside that "getaway" car and are distancing themselves from it.
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Don't be silly, Tom-Tom.

Do you find it interesting that Joannides took the place of Bill Nelson's wedding usher,, Philip Franklin Fendig, as CIA liason to the HSCA investigation?
Fendig's best man was Bill Nelson.... :
https://www.nytimes.com/1953/05/17/archives/miss-c-johnston-is-wed-in-capital-has-2-attendants-at-marriage-to.html

Shackley "introduces" Fendig to HSCA,
https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=100555#relPageId=2


Quote
https://www.google.com/books/edition/Cloak_Gown/a3ncweUli9UC?hl=en&gbpv=1&dq=angleton+william+nelson&pg=PA403&printsec=frontcover
loak & Gown: Scholars in the Secret War, 1939-1961 - Page 403
books.google.com › books
Robin W. Winks · 1996
Found inside – Page 403
... William Nelson , the deputy di- rector for operations , that set out all the circumstantial evidence to make the case that Angleton was a Soviet agent . That Angleton had not spotted Philby , or having spotted him had not turned him in ...

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After Oswald was brought in from the theater, everyone gathered inside the office of Capt. Westbrook.  This office is where the officers filled out their arrest reports

True, that's also where they marked pieces of evidence, regardless if they ever were in the chain of custody or not.

Inside this office was Westbrook, Barrett and Oswald's wallet (with Oswald and Hidell identifications inside and taken from him by Bentley during the car ride from the theater to headquarters).

Really?

The sequence of events disagrees. The officers who drove in the car with Oswald, left him in the homicide bureau, with some uniformed officers.

Only minutes after Oswald had been brought in, Guy Rose started working and the first thing he did was talk to Oswald. When he walked into the room, somebody gave him a wallet and told him it belonged to the suspect. That's the wallet in which Rose found the Hidell ID.

Now, if Oswald's wallet was in Westbrook's office with a number of officers, as you claim, how could Guy Rose be given that same wallet?

Perhaps, if somebody needs to think about it, it's you.

If you read what they all said and wrote, they showed up in the basement of the Municipal building, and brought Oswald up the back elevator to the DPD offices on the third floor. The party first went to the Homicide office, where they deposited Oswald and the wallet with Baker and other members of Fritz team. Hill and Baker conversed about possession of the revolver, the result being that Hill kept it. Then the arresting party proceeded to the squad room in the Personnel office. Bentley and Lyons went to the hospital to have their injuries examined, while the rest of the party set to writing reports. At some point after Bentley and Lyons left, Westbrook entered the squad room, saw the revolver lying on a desk, and sent for Lt Baker to come get it. At this point, Hill, Carroll, and McDonald put their initials on the weapon and turn it over.   

Yes.  The wallet itself remained in Fritz' office the entire time.  I should've said Westbrook, Barrett and the wallet were all three back at headquarters at the same time, as opposed to Westbrook's office at the same time.
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Why no "covering fire" supporting Hill running in the direction of where at least one shot had hit, even if his fellow agents in the following "Queen Mary" had just fired into the air, above the general direction where photos captured some of them craning their necks towards? Or, were they just too hung over from the night before?

Don't be silly, Tom-Tom.
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JFK Assassination Discussion & Debate / Re: The First Shot
« Last post by Tom Graves on Today at 08:17:20 PM »
The fact that you have to put several "ifs" into your scenario means that nothing you are saying is an established fact. It's simply your guesses.

The Robert Hughes film shows something white moving in the Sniper's Nest window as the limo turns onto Elm Street. Oswald was wearing a white t-shirt that day, so it's reasonable to assume that what we're seeing is Oswald getting ready to fire his first (missing everything) shot. 

IF Oswald fired it half-a-second before Zapruder resumed filming at Z-133 (as is indicated by the nearly simultaneous, rapid-but-non-startle head movements of everyone in the limo but Greer), the limo would have been at a sharp downward angle to him, and this sharp downward angle may have necessitated the short-rifle's muzzle's being inside the building when he fired it.
9
Clint Hill was running toward the limo before the headshot. Because the limo was moving forward, there wasn't much closing speed, but he was already in motion.

Although he was told differently, the only shot he heard while running was the headshot. He said the shot had a metallic sound which indicates to me one of the sounds he heard was a fragment striking the windshield frame.

To the best of my recollection, he was telling his story at the Sixth Floor Museum but I will have to find that program to verify it.

Why no "covering fire" supporting Hill running in the direction of where at least one shot had hit, even if his fellow agents in the following "Queen Mary" had just fired into the
air, above the general direction where photos captured some of them craning their necks towards? Or, were they just too hung over from the night before?
10

The worst evasion here is you avoiding answering how the man you are labeling Shelley has an obviously too stocky body to be Shelley...
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