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JFK Assassination Discussion & Debate / Re: The First Shot
« Last post by Andrew Mason on Today at 03:37:48 AM »
Quote from: Tom Graves on Today at 01:08:18 AM

1) Point being?
The point is that he said he kept looking at JFK for the last two shots and did not turn to the rear in between them.

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2) By "the last two shots," do you mean the ones at approximately Z-222 and Z-313?

No. I mean the last two shots.  There was only one shot before Altgens’ #6 according to Altgens, Hickey and another 45 witnesses who recalled the last two shots being close together.
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3) How many shots do you think there were altogether, and which one, if any, missed?
It is not about what I think. It is about what the evidence says.  The evidence says that there were 3 shots and no shot missed. The first went through JFK’s neck after z186 and before z202. The last shot was at z312-313. The last two shots were closer together which means the second was a discernible time after the midpoint between 1 and 3.
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JFK Assassination Discussion & Debate / Re: When Was JBC Hit?
« Last post by Andrew Mason on Today at 03:09:50 AM »
Quote from: Tom Graves on Yesterday at 07:50:19 PM
So that the light from JFK could reach his eyes?

I have no idea what you're talking about, Sir Isaac Newton.

Sorry. I shouldn’t have assumed that you knew how eyes worked.

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You seem to be saying that if Connally was trying to do what I think he was trying to do around Z-180, he would have turned farther to his right than he did.

So far, your observational skills seem to be working.

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I think it's reasonable to assume that large-man Connally turned as far to his right as he could in the confined space in his attempt to catch a view of JFK out of the corner of his eye, but he couldn't "see" (i.e., recognize) JFK out of the corner of said eye because JFK's head was also turned far to his right and because his right hand was raised to wave to someone and was, therefore, partially blocking Connally's (peripheral) view of his face.

Connally is not turned nearly as far right as he was at z255 as seen in Altgens #6.  Also, he makes no attempt to turn his head. The head can turn past the shoulders. He’s got another 90 degrees of head turn left to go.

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I told you he (and Nellie, bless her pea-pickin' heart) was mixed up.

It sounds as though Connally conflated what he saw around Z-180 with what he saw after he was wounded by CE-399.

I guess intense pain and/or trauma can do funny things to one's memories.

As a well-known charismatic politician, it was second nature for Connally to project an aura of confidence and certainty, but in-so-doing he unfortunately misled a lot of people regarding the timing of Oswald's three shots.
So if the evidence doesn’t fit the preferred theory, the evidence is the problem.  You have another 24 witnesses besides Nellie who said that JFK reacted to the first shot. Then another 47 witnesses to reject to get rid of that annoying 1…..…2….3 shot pattern that conflicts with the second shot SBT.
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JFK Assassination Discussion & Debate / Re: The First Shot
« Last post by Tom Graves on Today at 01:08:18 AM »
Quote from: Andrew Mason on Yesterday at 10:13:11 PM
George Hickey said he thought the sound came from his right and rear, so he turned to [his right and] rear to try to locate the source.
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George Hickey was very confused when he made his statements, not unlike John Connally, Nellie, and nearly every other witness to the assassination in the echo chamber known as Dealey Plaza.

If he had remembered correctly, he would have said that he leaned over the car and looked down at the pavement -- which you can him doing this video beginning at the 0:27 mark.




We know from the famous Altgens-6 photo that he didn't stand up and look to the rear until about two seconds after the second shot had been fired at approximately Z-222.

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He was watching JFK during each of the last two shots.

1) Point being?

2) By "the last two shots," do you mean the ones at approximately Z-222 and Z-313?

3) How many shots do you think there were altogether, and which one, if any, missed?

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JFK Assassination Discussion & Debate / Re: The First Shot
« Last post by John Corbett on Today at 12:16:59 AM »
Quote from: Andrew Mason on Yesterday at 10:13:11 PM
So to determine where he puts the first shot one would have to determine at what point the car completed the turn and started down an incline toward the triple underpass and also determine what he meant by "a very short distance".  150 -200 feet could be a very short distance, which is what JBC estimated.

Wrong. That is what JBC guessed. It is ludicrous to think that upon hearing the first shot, JBC would take note of how far down Elm St. the limo had traveled.
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JFK Assassination Discussion & Debate / Re: The First Shot
« Last post by Andrew Mason on Yesterday at 10:13:11 PM »
Quote from: Tom Graves on Yesterday at 06:43:31 PM

Regarding Hickey:


ME: Why did Hickey lean over and look down at the pavement before the second shot rang out?

Google AI: George Hickey leaned forward and looked toward the pavement because he believed a firecracker had exploded on the street right next to the car.

In his official Secret Service Report from November 30, 1963, Hickey explicitly detailed his physical reaction to that first loud noise:

The noise seemed to me to come from a firecracker, and I thought to myself that the kids were playing with firecrackers again... It appeared to come from the right and rear and seemed to me to be at ground level. I heard a report that sounded like a firecracker... I immediately stood up and looked and argued with myself that it was a firecracker.
What is the cite for this?  This appears to be a made-up statement.  It bears no resemblance to the Nov. 30 or the Nov. 22, 1963 statements that Hickey made.

Hickey said he thought the sound came from his right rear so he turned to the rear to try to locate the source. He was watching JFK during each of the last two shots. Read his statements in CE1024.  Here is the relevant part of his Nov. 30/63 statement:




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Because his brain processed the first gunshot as a ground-level firecracker prank rather than a rifle shot from above, his immediate reflex was to look down at the street surface to see where the firecracker had gone off.

. . . . . . .

My comments:

Note that Hickey doesn't say that he stood up and turned around and looked in the direction of the TSBD -- that came a few seconds later (and was famously captured in Altgens-6) after Oswald's second shot at approximately Z-222.

I have no idea what you are basing your comments on. It is nothing that Hickey said in any of his statements.  Are you making this up? Or are you using AI?  In any event, you are basing your comments on falsified information.

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Also note that he said in his 11/22/63 report that the car he was in had travelled a "very short distance" down Elm Street when the aforementioned firecracker-like sound occurred.
He did not say a very short distance down Elm if by that you mean a very short distance from the intersection.  He says the President's had turned left and had started down an incline followed by their security car.  THEN after a very short distance (ie. a very short distance after starting down the incline after completing the turn onto Elm) the first shot sounded.  So to determine where he puts the first shot one would have to determine at what point the car completed the turn and started down an incline toward the triple underpass and also determine what he meant by "a very short distance".  150 -200 feet could be a very short distance, which is what JBC estimated.
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JFK Assassination Discussion & Debate / Re: The Hole in the Limousine's Windshield: Proof of a Second Gunman
« Last post by John Corbett on Yesterday at 09:56:00 PM »
Quote from: Royell Storing on Yesterday at 09:43:54 PM
   The clear images of the JFK Limo at Parkland showing the windshield are there. When instead, images are posted by the WC AFTER the windshield was removed, you gotta smell a rat. Those running this operation had to of viewed the Parkland Hospital windshield images taken only minutes after the kill shot. They know.

I don't know which photos you are referring to that you say were taken after the windshield was removed. I've seen a photo showing the cracked windshield. The limo was returned to be refurbished and reconfigured. Naturally the windshield would be removed during that process but I know of no photos taken at that time. If you have those please post them.

Here is the photo I am familiar with
https://tse4.mm.bing.net/th/id/OIP.F9a7y61ooNJFZ5VRhTGbVwHaGW?r=0&rs=1&pid=ImgDetMain&o=7&rm=3
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JFK Assassination Discussion & Debate / Re: How Did Bart Kamp Create The Lovelady Image?
« Last post by Royell Storing on Yesterday at 09:53:48 PM »
Quote from: Brian Doyle on Yesterday at 02:50:52 PM
You can see Gloria Calvery climbing the front steps in Couch/Darnell...If you rewind the film, the timing shown by Lovelady & Shelley headed up the extension matches the timing of Calvery climbing the steps after talking to Lovelady & Shelley at the base of the steps...Both parties are where they should be according to testimony...The film evidence is what happened...

I've been to Dealey Plaza in 2016...It is smaller than it looks in person...Calvery and Reed bolting on adrenaline, in reaction to seeing Kennedy's brains blown out at close range, could have covered the distance required to get to the steps and inform Lovelady & Shelley what they just witnessed...Frazier said Calvery was hysterically shouting in a low voice "They have shot the president"...This spurred Lovelady & Shelley to head up to the Knoll to see for themselves...Pretending this wasn't possible isn't very credible...The time that took is what the official record is and this evidence can be used to measure calibration of the event...

The Education Forum has now established corruption as its main means instead of credible, objective research...The captain of that is one stupid bastard named Jim DiEugenio who has a whole internet full of ***-kissers lining up to assist him...The devil take Sandy Larsen...

   You can Not get around that :20 second time stamp applied to those 2 Guys already walking down the Elm St Ext. You wanna change that time stamp, go for it. There are absolutely NO IMAGES showing, "Calvery and Reed BOLTING ON ADRENALINE, in reaction to seeing Kennedy's brains blown out....".
   You need to remember that Wiegman was filming as he exited Camera Car #1 at the corner and then moved down Elm St. Shots had just been fired and he filmed the JFK Limo going under the Triple Underpass. Wiegman would have caught at least one of these women "....BOLTING ON ADRNALINE..." as they went down the Elm St sidewalk toward the TSBD. What you are claiming Never happened. The Wiegman film all by itself kills your fictional story line.
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JFK Assassination Discussion & Debate / Re: The Hole in the Limousine's Windshield: Proof of a Second Gunman
« Last post by Royell Storing on Yesterday at 09:43:54 PM »
Quote from: John Corbett on Yesterday at 08:41:14 PM
I never cease to be amazed at the things CTs can dream up without an ounce of evidence to support it.

   The clear images of the JFK Limo at Parkland showing the windshield are there. When instead, images are posted by the WC AFTER the windshield was removed, you gotta smell a rat. Those running this operation had to of viewed the Parkland Hospital windshield images taken only minutes after the kill shot. They know. 
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JFK Assassination Discussion & Debate / Re: The Hole in the Limousine's Windshield: Proof of a Second Gunman
« Last post by John Corbett on Yesterday at 08:41:14 PM »
Quote from: Jake Maxwell on Yesterday at 06:06:53 PM
A windshield repair person would most likely conclude the windshield damage came from outside...

Bill "Rubbernecking" Greer was likely being put on notice... "don't divulge why you slowed the limo... we can get to you too..."


I never cease to be amazed at the things CTs can dream up without an ounce of evidence to support it.
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JFK Assassination Discussion & Debate / Re: When Was JBC Hit?
« Last post by Tom Graves on Yesterday at 07:50:19 PM »
Quote from: Andrew Mason on Yesterday at 07:26:31 PM
If Connally was trying to glance at JFK over his right shoulder around Z-180, I would expect to see him turn his head so the light from JFK could reach his eyes.

So that the light from JFK could reach his eyes?

I have no idea what you're talking about, Sir Isaac Newton.

You seem to be saying that if Connally was trying to do what I think he was trying to do around Z-180, he would have turned farther to his right than he did.

I think it's reasonable to assume that large-man Connally turned as far to his right as he could in the confined space in his attempt to catch a view of JFK out of the corner of his eye, but he couldn't "see" (i.e., recognize) JFK out of the corner of said eye because JFK's head was also turned far to his right and because his right hand was raised to wave to someone and was, therefore, partially blocking Connally's (peripheral) view of his face.

Connally may have even thought that the reason he couldn't "see" JFK was because JFK had been hit and was down.

I think that's why he decided to turn back to his left to try to catch a glimpse of JFK over his left shoulder -- but unfortunately was hit by CE-399 before he could complete his pivot.

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In his 11 December 1963 statement, Connally said he saw three buildings, including the Country Records building.  Do you think he can see those buildings at z180?  I don't see how.

I told you he (and Nellie, bless her pea-pickin' heart) was mixed up.

It sounds as though Connally conflated what he saw around Z-180 with what he saw after he was wounded by CE-399.

I guess intense pain and/or trauma can do funny things to one's memories.

As a well-known charismatic politician, it was second nature for Connally to project an aura of confidence and certainty, but in-so-doing he unfortunately misled a lot of people regarding the timing of Oswald's three shots.
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