JFK Assassination Forum
JFK Assassination Discussion & Debate => JFK Assassination Discussion & Debate => Topic started by: Steve Thomas on January 11, 2018, 12:21:02 PM
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Since all the previous posts are gone...
The following seems odd to me.
Oswald has been arrested in the Theater and they get in the car. Carroll, the driver has Oswald's gun in his belt. He hands the gun to Hill who is sitting next to him in the front seat. Hill breaks the gun open to see if there are any live rounds in it. Hill tells the WC:
http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/russ/testimony/hill_gl.htm
Mr. HILL. Then I broke the gun open to see how many shells it contained and how many live rounds it had in it.
Mr. BELIN. How many did you find?
Mr. HILL. There were six in the chambers of the gun. One of them had an indention in the primer that appeared to be caused by the hammer. There were five others. All of the shells at this time had indentions.
All of the shells appeared to have at one time or another scotch tape on them because in an area that would have been the width of a half inch strip of scotch tape, there was kind of a bit of lint and residue on the jacket of the shell.
Scotch tape?
Wouldn't you just grab a handfull of shells out of the box and stick them in your pocket?
Did the shells the police found in Oswald's pocket about 4 hours after they brought him into the station also have scotch tape residue on them?
Steve Thomas
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Since all the previous posts are gone...
The following seems odd to me.
Oswald has been arrested in the Theater and they get in the car. Carroll, the driver has Oswald's gun in his belt. He hands the gun to Hill who is sitting next to him in the front seat. Hill breaks the gun open to see if there are any live rounds in it. Hill tells the WC:
http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/russ/testimony/hill_gl.htm
Mr. HILL. Then I broke the gun open to see how many shells it contained and how many live rounds it had in it.
Mr. BELIN. How many did you find?
Mr. HILL. There were six in the chambers of the gun. One of them had an indention in the primer that appeared to be caused by the hammer. There were five others. All of the shells at this time had indentions.
All of the shells appeared to have at one time or another scotch tape on them because in an area that would have been the width of a half inch strip of scotch tape, there was kind of a bit of lint and residue on the jacket of the shell.
Scotch tape?
Wouldn't you just grab a handfull of shells out of the box and stick them in your pocket?
Did the shells the police found in Oswald's pocket about 4 hours after they brought him into the station also have scotch tape residue on them?
Steve Thomas
Mr. HILL. There were six in the chambers of the gun. One of them had an indention in the primer that appeared to be caused by the hammer. There were five others. All of the shells at this time had indentions.
All of the shells appeared to have at one time or another scotch tape on them because in an area that would have been the width of a half inch strip of scotch tape, there was kind of a bit of lint and residue on the jacket of the shell.
There is photo of the cartridges that Hill took from the revolver.....There was no bandoleer belt residue on the bullets that he removed.....However there IS leather residue on the bullets that were presented to the Warren Commission...... Indicating that the WC cartridges had been stored in a cartridge belt, and they are NOT the same bullets that Hill removed from the revolver.
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https://www.maryferrell.org/pages/Photos_-_NARA_Evidence_Photos.html
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http://www.history-matters.com/archive/jfk/wc/wcvols/wh3/html/WC_Vol3_0242b.htm
Mr. Eisenberg: Now, you said that there were three bullets of Winchester-Western manufacture, those are 602,603, and 605
and one bullet of R.-P. manufacture.
Mr. Cunningham: That is correct.
Mr. Eisenberg: However, as to the cartridge cases, Exhibit 594, you told us there were two R.-P. cartridge cases and two
Winchester-Western cartridge cases.
Mr. Cunningham: That is correct.
Mr. Eisenberg: So that the recovered cartridge cases, there is one more recovered R.-P. cartridge case than there was
recovered bullet?
Mr. Cunningham: Yes
Mr. Eisenberg: And as to the bullets, there is one more recovered Winchester-Western bullet than there is Winchester-Western
cartridges?
Mr. Cunningham: That is correct.
Mr. Eisenberg: How would you account for that?
Mr. Cunningham: The possibility exits that one bullet is missing. Also, they may not have found one of the cartridges.
Representative Boggs: Are you able to match the bullet with the cartridge case?
Mr. Cunningham: It is not possible.
Representative Boggs: So that while you can establish the fact that the cartridge case, the four that we have, were fired
in that gun---
Mr. Cunningham: Yes Sir.
Representative Boggs: You cannot establish the fact that the bullets were fired in that gun?
Mr. Cunningham: That is correct.
Representative Boggs: And you cannot--having the cartridge case and the bullet--you cannot match them up?
Mr. Cunningham: No, you can't.
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Mr. EISENBERG. Now, were you able to determine whether those bullets have been fired in this weapon?
Mr. CUNNINGHAM. No; I was not.
Mr. EISENBERG. Can you explain why?
Mr. CUNNINGHAM. Yes, sir.
First of all, Commission Exhibit No. 602 was too mutilated. There were not sufficient microscopic marks remaining on the
surface of this bullet, due to the mutilation, to determine whether or not it had been fired from this weapon.
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There is photo of the cartridges that Hill took from the revolver.....There was no bandoleer belt residue on the bullets that he removed.....However there IS leather residue on the bullets that were presented to the Warren Commission...... Indicating that the WC cartridges had been stored in a cartridge belt, and they are NOT the same bullets that Hill removed from the revolver.
Walt,
Are you thinking of this photo?
http://jfkfiles.blogspot.com/2010/12/tippit-murder-why-conspiracy-theorists.html
Scroll about halfway down the page.
Steve Thomas
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Sgt. Hill was caught on police tape stating:
The shells at the scene indicate that the suspect is armed with an automatic 38, rather than a pistol.
Hill was a notorious liar.
Hill was a notorious liar.
Yes.... and it doesn't require a PSE expert to verify ....However George O'Toole ( author of "The Assassination Tapes" did analyze many of Hill's statements and concluded that Hill was a damned liar.
O'Toole says that Hill stated that Fritz would not have ordered the polygraph test to be given to Buell frazier because according to Hill, Captain Fritz didn't believe in using the polygraph ( incredible) and wouldn't allow his subordinates to employ the polygraph...... At least a half dozen other police officers refuted Hill's lie..... among those who refuted Hill's lie was the chief polygraph officer Paul Bentley who told O'Toole that he had performed hundreds of polygraph exams for Captain Fritz .......
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Walt,
Are you thinking of this photo?
http://jfkfiles.blogspot.com/2010/12/tippit-murder-why-conspiracy-theorists.html
Scroll about halfway down the page.
Steve Thomas
Image #10 shows Hill with a revolver in his right hand and six live cartridges in his left hand.....The cartridges are nice and shiny clean......
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Walt,
Are you thinking of this photo?
http://jfkfiles.blogspot.com/2010/12/tippit-murder-why-conspiracy-theorists.html
Scroll about halfway down the page.
Steve Thomas
(http://www.jfkfiles.com/jfk/images/news/120310/FIG11_120310.jpg)
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Yes.... and it doesn't require a PSE expert to verify ....However George O'Toole ( author of "The Assassination Tapes" did analyze many of Hill's statements and concluded that Hill was a damned liar.
Voice stress analysis is pseudoscience. Not unlike polygraphs and handwriting analysis.
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"Mr. HILL. There were six in the chambers of the gun. One of them had an indention in the primer that appeared to be caused by the hammer. There were five others. All of the shells at this time had indentions."
What does Hill mean when he says the other five shells also had "indentions"? Was he saying their primers were indented as the 6th one was?
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Voice stress analysis is pseudoscience. Not unlike polygraphs and handwriting analysis.
I disagree..... Though I'm in no position to debate the effectiveness of PSE...I'd suggest that you read George O'Ttoole's The Assassination Tapes.... You may change your mind.
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RE Myers, to save the reader a little time:
Anonymous said...
Is the following true ? - Sergeant Gerald Hill examined one of the shells and radioed the police dispatcher, saying: "The shell at the scene indicates that the suspect is armed with an automatic .38 rather than a pistol."
If LHO was carrying a revolver , why did he leave the spent cartridge cases at the scene of the crime ?
That makes no sense to me !
October 22, 2012 at 4:16 PM
Dale K. Myers said...
Anonymous, Oswald discarded the empty shells at the scene as he fled in order to reload his revolver with live ammunition. Numerous witnesses saw him reloading the revolver as he fled. As for Sgt. Gerald Hill's comments, yes it is true, he radioed that the shells at the scene indicate that the suspect was armed with an automatic rather than a pistol. However, you may not be aware that Hill later admitted that he based is comment on the assumption that the shells had been recovered at the scene because they had been ejected by an automatic handgun. Hill was unaware that witnesses had seen Oswald unloading his revolver manually. When Oswald was arrested, the revolver he pulled on arresting officers was fully loaded and Oswald had five additional live rounds in his pocket.
October 22, 2012 at 9:33 PM
This argument is complete nonsense since Hill didn't have to assume anything as Myers himself explains in the video @1:10 ... the shell itself can be identified as an automatic.
But it's even worse -- Hill to the WC:
Mr. BELIN. You went back to 400 East 10th Street?
Mr. HILL. Right. And Poe showed me a Winston cigarette package that contained three spent jackets from shells that he said a citizen had pointed out to him where the suspect had reloaded his gun and dropped these in the grass, and that the citizen had picked them up and put them in the Winston package. I told Poe to maintain the chain of evidence as small as possible, for him to retain these at that time, and to be sure and mark them for evidence, and then turn them over to the crime lab when he got there, or to homicide.
Evidently the shells fired from an automatic would have landed by Tippit's car not on the corner of 10th and Patton. The shells being from an automatic totally sinks the official narrative. Again, this fully exposes the WC investigation as a fraud because BELIN neglects this important issue which is obvious from the police tape transcript linked below.
http://www.aarclibrary.org/publib/jfk/wc/wcvols/wh21/html/WH_Vol21_0211a.htm (at the 1:40 AM mark)
Sergeant Gerald Hill examined one of the shells and radioed the police dispatcher, saying: "The shell at the scene indicates that the suspect is armed with an automatic .38 rather than a pistol."
If LHO was carrying a revolver , why did he leave the spent cartridge cases at the scene of the crime ?
Was Lee Oswald carrying ANY gun??? The 38 Smith and Wesson that debuted at the Texas Theater could have been introduced into the evidence stream by any of those man who were engaged in the scuffle in the dark theater.
LHO never left any spent shells at the scene of the Tippit hit..... He wasn't at that scene.
But the hit man who killed Tippit was definitely using a revolver....but that revolver was NOT a Smith and Wesson.
Several witnesses saw the hit man removing spent shells from his revolver, and they reported that he was removing the spent shells ONE AT A TIME....That is NOT the way that spent shells are removed from a Smith and Wesson ...
The spent shells are removed all at once from a S&W revolver ..... If the hit man had been using a S&W the spent shells would have been found in a small area on the ground.....and not dispersed over a large area.
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I disagree..... Though I'm in no position to debate the effectiveness of PSE...I'd suggest that you read George O'Ttoole's The Assassination Tapes.... You may change your mind.
I have. And I didn't.
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RE Myers, to save the reader a little time:
Anonymous said...
Is the following true ? - Sergeant Gerald Hill examined one of the shells and radioed the police dispatcher, saying: "The shell at the scene indicates that the suspect is armed with an automatic .38 rather than a pistol."
If LHO was carrying a revolver , why did he leave the spent cartridge cases at the scene of the crime ?
That makes no sense to me !
October 22, 2012 at 4:16 PM
Dale K. Myers said...
Anonymous, Oswald discarded the empty shells at the scene as he fled in order to reload his revolver with live ammunition. Numerous witnesses saw him reloading the revolver as he fled. As for Sgt. Gerald Hill's comments, yes it is true, he radioed that the shells at the scene indicate that the suspect was armed with an automatic rather than a pistol. However, you may not be aware that Hill later admitted that he based is comment on the assumption that the shells had been recovered at the scene because they had been ejected by an automatic handgun. Hill was unaware that witnesses had seen Oswald unloading his revolver manually. When Oswald was arrested, the revolver he pulled on arresting officers was fully loaded and Oswald had five additional live rounds in his pocket.
October 22, 2012 at 9:33 PM
This argument is complete nonsense since Hill didn't have to assume anything as Myers himself explains in the video @1:10 ... the shell itself can be identified as an automatic.
But it's even worse -- Hill to the WC:
Mr. BELIN. You went back to 400 East 10th Street?
Mr. HILL. Right. And Poe showed me a Winston cigarette package that contained three spent jackets from shells that he said a citizen had pointed out to him where the suspect had reloaded his gun and dropped these in the grass, and that the citizen had picked them up and put them in the Winston package. I told Poe to maintain the chain of evidence as small as possible, for him to retain these at that time, and to be sure and mark them for evidence, and then turn them over to the crime lab when he got there, or to homicide.
Evidently the shells fired from an automatic would have landed by Tippit's car not on the corner of 10th and Patton. The shells being from an automatic totally sinks the official narrative. Again, this fully exposes the WC investigation as a fraud because BELIN neglects this important issue which is obvious from the police tape transcript linked below.
http://www.aarclibrary.org/publib/jfk/wc/wcvols/wh21/html/WH_Vol21_0211a.htm (at the 1:40 AM mark)
If LHO was carrying a revolver , why did he leave the spent cartridge cases at the scene of the crime ?
First off.....The hit man was NOT Lee Oswald!...... The hit man left the shells at the scene because he knew that there was a paper trail that showed that Lee Oswald had bought a 38 caliber revolver. Just as the spent 6.5 Carcano shells had been left beneath the window of the TSBD.
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Oswalds pistol had a bent firing pin which rendered the pistol useless as it would not be able to shoot any type of bullet ! Automatic shell casing were found at the scene of J.D. Tippits body . LHO's handgun was a revolver ( with a bent firing pin ).
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RE Myers, to save the reader a little time:
Anonymous said...
Is the following true ? - Sergeant Gerald Hill examined one of the shells and radioed the police dispatcher, saying: "The shell at the scene indicates that the suspect is armed with an automatic .38 rather than a pistol."
If LHO was carrying a revolver , why did he leave the spent cartridge cases at the scene of the crime ?
That makes no sense to me !
October 22, 2012 at 4:16 PM
Dale K. Myers said...
Anonymous, Oswald discarded the empty shells at the scene as he fled in order to reload his revolver with live ammunition. Numerous witnesses saw him reloading the revolver as he fled. As for Sgt. Gerald Hill's comments, yes it is true, he radioed that the shells at the scene indicate that the suspect was armed with an automatic rather than a pistol. However, you may not be aware that Hill later admitted that he based is comment on the assumption that the shells had been recovered at the scene because they had been ejected by an automatic handgun. Hill was unaware that witnesses had seen Oswald unloading his revolver manually. When Oswald was arrested, the revolver he pulled on arresting officers was fully loaded and Oswald had five additional live rounds in his pocket.
October 22, 2012 at 9:33 PM
This argument is complete nonsense since Hill didn't have to assume anything as Myers himself explains in the video @1:10 ... the shell itself can be identified as an automatic.
But it's even worse -- Hill to the WC:
Mr. BELIN. You went back to 400 East 10th Street?
Mr. HILL. Right. And Poe showed me a Winston cigarette package that contained three spent jackets from shells that he said a citizen had pointed out to him where the suspect had reloaded his gun and dropped these in the grass, and that the citizen had picked them up and put them in the Winston package. I told Poe to maintain the chain of evidence as small as possible, for him to retain these at that time, and to be sure and mark them for evidence, and then turn them over to the crime lab when he got there, or to homicide.
Evidently the shells fired from an automatic would have landed by Tippit's car not on the corner of 10th and Patton. The shells being from an automatic totally sinks the official narrative. Again, this fully exposes the WC investigation as a fraud because BELIN neglects this important issue which is obvious from the police tape transcript linked below.
http://www.aarclibrary.org/publib/jfk/wc/wcvols/wh21/html/WH_Vol21_0211a.htm (at the 1:40 AM mark)
If LHO was carrying a revolver , why did he leave the spent cartridge cases at the scene of the crime ?
That makes no sense to me !
Either the killer was totally unconcerned about leaving the evidence of the spent shells at the scene ( because he knew his confederates on the DPD would cover for him )....or he was deliberately planting evidence that would be used to incriminate their patsy, Lee Oswald.
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I have. And I didn't.
Of course you didn't ( change your mind) ..... Just as it's impossible to form concrete after it's cured.....Your brain is like concrete.....
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"Mr. HILL. There were six in the chambers of the gun. One of them had an indention in the primer that appeared to be caused by the hammer. There were five others. All of the shells at this time had indentions."
What does Hill mean when he says the other five shells also had "indentions"? Was he saying their primers were indented as the 6th one was?
BUMP
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Of course you didn't ( change your mind) ..... Just as it's impossible to form concrete after it's cured.....Your brain is like concrete.....
All it takes is scientific evidence, Walt. Voice Stress Analysis is neither.
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Oswald has been arrested in the Theater and they get in the car. Carroll, the driver has Oswald's gun in his belt. He hands the gun to Hill who is sitting next to him in the front seat. Hill breaks the gun open to see if there are any live rounds in it. Hill tells the WC:
http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/russ/testimony/hill_gl.htm
Mr. HILL. Then I broke the gun open to see how many shells it contained and how many live rounds it had in it.
Mr. BELIN. How many did you find?
Mr. HILL. There were six in the chambers of the gun. One of them had an indention in the primer that appeared to be caused by the hammer. There were five others. All of the shells at this time had indentions.
All of the shells appeared to have at one time or another scotch tape on them because in an area that would have been the width of a half inch strip of scotch tape, there was kind of a bit of lint and residue on the jacket of the shell.
Wouldn't you just grab a handful of shells out of the box and stick them in your pocket?
Did the shells the police found in Oswald's pocket about 4 hours after they brought him into the station also have scotch tape residue on them?
There weird part is ...there was no 'box'.
No other ammunition of any kind was proven to have been in Oswald's possession at any time.
The rifle shells and remaining loads were [apparently] print free also. Room-free of bullets...Paine garage ...no ammo.
These facts seem difficult to ignore but yet they have been been since 1963.
No proof existed that Oswald loaded the revolver or had ever fired it prior to the alleged encounter.
Can we get our head around....how many rounds of ammo did Oswald allegedly bring with the gun?
We have the slugs that were fired into the cop=4 correct?....then how many shells were found?...
four [they say].
According to the Dale Meyers research [based on testimony?] there were six rounds found in the revolver plus five more found in Oswald's pocket plus the four shots that makes 5+6+4=15 bullets so far but we don't really know if the gun was supposed to be fully loaded to begin with do we? But then why not?
If it was, then that would mean that the supposed killer would have had taken [indeed] a total of 15 rounds to combat the entire Dallas Police Department...six in the gun and nine extra.
The alleged, capped Tippit with three in the chest that put the cop down...why the coup d' gras? One in the head? Seemed an unnecessary use of a rapidly diminishing arsenal.
I believe this memo states that the FBI didn't match rounds from the alleged revolver and fired by the alleged killer did not match any bullets found in any other shot up bodies.
Also indention info....Q-177 & Q-178... Did the FBI not disagree with Sgt Hill?
https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=10672#relPageId=164&tab=page