JFK Assassination Forum
JFK Assassination Discussion & Debate => JFK Assassination Discussion & Debate => Topic started by: Matt Grantham on July 02, 2018, 06:44:34 AM
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I know we went around on some of this recently, but I thought some people were claiming only 3 witnesses up there, when one shot in the following video shows many many more than that
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There are FBI 302's for interviews with Union Terminal employees Simmons, Winborn, Potter, Bishop, Dodd, Murphy, Johnson, Consert, and Davis, all of whom said they saw the assassination from the TP. Add those to Holland and we have at statements from at least 10 poeple on the TP.
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I mentioned that I think at least 3 people up there were still waving and/or clapping at the limo as it approached them, you can only see this in good stailized clips of the Bell film but even then you might not see it yourself, no one commented on it when I posted them, not even the member I was having a discussion with.
I also said that I think at least 3 statements taken from the overpass people by the FBI were changed in at least 1 respect, each of these three witnesses stated that they saw a cop run/ride up the grass and then head for the TSBD or "building". It still strikes me as ridiculous.
Perhaps that's what your thinking of with "3 witnesses"?
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I mentioned that I think at least 3 people up there were still waving and/or clapping at the limo as it approached them, you can only see this in good stailized clips of the Bell film but even then you might not see it yourself, no one commented on it when I posted them, not even the member I was having a discussion with.
I also said that I think at least 3 statements taken from the overpass people by the FBI were changed in at least 1 respect, each of these three witnesses stated that they saw a cop run/ride up the grass and then head for the TSBD or "building". It still strikes me as ridiculous.
Perhaps that's what your thinking of with "3 witnesses"?
"Ridiculous"? Not Hardly. Those statements are Consistent and Corroborate each other. Why not include SA Landis, (standing on the Passenger side running board of the Queen Mary), and his statement as to seeing a guy running East across the North side of the Knoll toward The Steps as the Queen Mary sped toward the Triple Underpass? Or Sitzman telling Tink Thompson that after dismounting The Perch she Immediately Ran Down the knoll & then came back up it and talked with a G Man who provided ID? And what about Officer Hargis's WC Testimony of his running Up the knoll to the little "brick wall"? How about SA Lem Johns jumping out of the LBJ SS Follow-Up Car, running down Elm St, and then was left standing in the middle of Elm St as the JFK Motorcade sped away? NONE of this lengthy list is on Any assassination image(s) yet you naively throw in with Uncle Sam's long time buddy = The Kodak Connection.
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Imo, if there was a shot from the Grassy Knoll, it was purposely a blank with smoke effect to draw attention away from the expert shooter at the SW window 6th floor TSBD and a 2nd shooter Daltex bldg. This GK shooter may have sat on the hood of the car where muddy footprints were
found including on the rear bumper of the car. There may have been one other man, whom was with him. These 2 were probably the 2 men whom Lee Bowers saw, from the railyard tower behind the GK fence.
If it was a diversion shot, from GK, then it worked, since police and crowd ran to the GK. Only 2 DPD seem to have reacted differently, Baker and Barnett. Baker, who saw pigeons fly from the rooftop of TSBD and headed that way, rushing to the front entrance, and Barnett running to the side to observe the fire escape and also the back of TSBD. Barnett however failed to secure the WEST side of TSBD for up to 3 minutes.
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I realize the smoke is getting pretty thick in terms of witnesses at the GN, so we might as well add some mirrors
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Jack Lawrence worked for the Downtown Lincoln-Mercury car dealership in Dallas. Lawrence claimed that Lee Harvey Oswald asked to test-drive a car in early November. Afterwards Lawrence reported the incident to the Federal Bureau of Investigation.
On 21st November, 1963, Lawrence borrowed one of the firm's cars. The following day he failed to turn up for work. According to Jim Marrs (Crossfire): "about thirty minutes after the assassination, he came hustling through the company's show room, pale and sweating with mud on his clothes. He rushed into the men's room and threw up. He told co-workers he had been ill that morning, and that he had tried to drive the car back to the dealership but had to park it due to the heavy traffic. Later, employees found the car parked behind the wooden picket fence on top of the Grassy Knoll overlooking Dealey Plaza."
Lawrence's strange behaviour was reported to the Dallas police. He was interviewed by officers investigating the assassination of John F. Kennedy. They discovered that Lawrence was a marksman in the United States Air Force.
According to Beverly Oliver, Lawrence was a regular at the Carousel Club (owned by Jack Ruby) and a close friend of George Senator.
spartacus-educational.com/JFKlawrence.htm
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I realize the smoke is getting pretty thick in terms of witnesses at the GN, so we might as well add some mirrors
I do like that suggestion. :D
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"Ridiculous"? Not Hardly. Those statements are Consistent and Corroborate each other. Why not include SA Landis, (standing on the Passenger side running board of the Queen Mary), and his statement as to seeing a guy running East across the North side of the Knoll toward The Steps as the Queen Mary sped toward the Triple Underpass? Or Sitzman telling Tink Thompson that after dismounting The Perch she Immediately Ran Down the knoll & then came back up it and talked with a G Man who provided ID? And what about Officer Hargis's WC Testimony of his running Up the knoll to the little "brick wall"? How about SA Lem Johns jumping out of the LBJ SS Follow-Up Car, running down Elm St, and then was left standing in the middle of Elm St as the JFK Motorcade sped away? NONE of this lengthy list is on Any assassination image(s) yet you naively throw in with Uncle Sam's long time buddy = The Kodak Connection.
How can you be atop the TU and claim that a policeman ran or on his bike went up the grassy incline towards the TSBD?
That's not what they saw and it's not what they said, it is of course ridiculous.
That's the FEDs making less work for themselves. Having these witnesses describing a cop running toward their direction, the wrong direction, creates another line of enquiry to follow, if he's running toward the building they can turn it in and forgedaboutit.
Is that any clearer?
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"Ridiculous"? Not Hardly. Those statements are Consistent and Corroborate each other. Why not include SA Landis, (standing on the Passenger side running board of the Queen Mary), and his statement as to seeing a guy running East across the North side of the Knoll toward The Steps as the Queen Mary sped toward the Triple Underpass? ......
A significant point of interest w.r.t. SA Landis. You can see him duck at about the same time or just before the President was shot. He saw something going down and must have felt that he was in the line of fire from a frontal assault. I believe that coordinates with Z-322. This is almost the same instant that the "bi-afro" girl hesitates and changes direction when running towards the President's limousine at about Z-322. There is synergy between 2 different films to give a time reference. She saw something at front that made her change direction. That is my pet theory that the assassin came down off the steps and stepped in front of the car. Driver Greer's head moved toward the windshield to protect from glass spray and that move can be seen in the Zapruder Frames. The assassin fired 2 shots about 1/2 a second apart with a gun and then rolled into the grass behind/beside Altgens.
I maintain that there was no Z-313 shot and that the President saw something happen in front of him, raised his arm to defend himsel and moved back in his seat. This was his last move when the hand goes down. That to me was a conscious move and not done as a subliminal reaction to Z-313 supposed head shot. The major head shot came in at Z-329/330 where you can see the President's head turn into a red blob and Jacqueline begins to react and wants to leave the limousine. Landis must have saw something that made him duck - no one else on the Queen Mary reacts.
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(http://i959.photobucket.com/albums/ae75/garcra/Altgens7crop.jpg)
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Good to see Psilocybin is making a comeback.
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Someone must have watched a different film than the one I saw.
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Imo, if there was a shot from the Grassy Knoll, it was purposely a blank with smoke effect to draw attention away from the expert shooter at the SW window 6th floor TSBD and a 2nd shooter Daltex bldg. This GK shooter may have sat on the hood of the car where muddy footprints were
found including on the rear bumper of the car. There may have been one other man, whom was with him. These 2 were probably the 2 men whom Lee Bowers saw, from the railyard tower behind the GK fence.
If it was a diversion shot, from GK, then it worked, since police and crowd ran to the GK. Only 2 DPD seem to have reacted differently, Baker and Barnett. Baker, who saw pigeons fly from the rooftop of TSBD and headed that way, rushing to the front entrance, and Barnett running to the side to observe the fire escape and also the back of TSBD. Barnett however failed to secure the WEST side of TSBD for up to 3 minutes.
Zeon,
Interesting theory of a blank being fired and witnesses on the underpass seeing smoke. Would also fit with the acoustical evidence being a sub-sonic shot, (pistol) that missed. I always believed Holland's statements in regards to the puff of smoke. Yes, a diversion, but no actual shooter? Possible. Something out of the ordinary happened where the two men were standing behind the fence. Perhaps even a simple firecracker, ignited behind the fence with a cigarette and it's flash caught the eye of the man in the RR switching tower.
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Zeon,
Interesting theory of a blank being fired and witnesses on the underpass seeing smoke. Would also fit with the acoustical evidence being a sub-sonic shot, (pistol) that missed. I always believed Holland's statements in regards to the puff of smoke. Yes, a diversion, but no actual shooter? Possible. Something out of the ordinary happened where the two men were standing behind the fence. Perhaps even a simple firecracker, ignited behind the fence with a cigarette and it's flash caught the eye of the man in the RR switching tower.
It's True that many people inside Dealey Plaza said they initially mistook the shots being fired as firecrackers going off. It's False that an eye witness has Ever testified, or said they witnessed a firecracker being lit, thrown, or exploding on the ground inside Dealey Plaza at 12:30 on 11/22/63. There is Zero Eyewitness Testimony or Physical Evidence of any firecrackers being ignited inside Dealey Plaza as the JFK Motorcade passed through. None
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Good to see Psilocybin is making a comeback.
Take another dose of magic mushrooms and take another hoot on your hash pipe! You are missing the driver Greer reaction which is exact opposite to the President's reaction of going back in the seat while Greer's head moves closer to windshield. If you can't see the head move forward over frames z-321 to z-329 you are missing it - clearly a ducking/flinch reaction. If.... as people suggest the car is coming to a stop, driver Greer is coherent with that as head moves towards windshield as one would expect. You would also expect with an application of brakes that the "limp less" President's would be doing likewise! The President however is NOT! His head move is moving back during those frames, while Greer's goes forward! Either there is a conscious effort by the President (defensive move) contrary to a stop by the driver or else your missing it - especially when frames become blurred and obscured!
Go put an acid dot in your eye and watch the music float out lol!
https://www.assassinationresearch.com/zfilm/z321.jpg (https://www.assassinationresearch.com/zfilm/z321.jpg)
https://www.assassinationresearch.com/zfilm/z322.jpg (https://www.assassinationresearch.com/zfilm/z322.jpg)
https://www.assassinationresearch.com/zfilm/z324.jpg (https://www.assassinationresearch.com/zfilm/z324.jpg)
https://www.assassinationresearch.com/zfilm/z330.jpg (https://www.assassinationresearch.com/zfilm/z330.jpg)
https://www.assassinationresearch.com/zfilm/z331.jpg (https://www.assassinationresearch.com/zfilm/z331.jpg)
(https://www.assassinationresearch.com/zfilm/z321.jpg)
(https://www.assassinationresearch.com/zfilm/z322.jpg)
(https://www.assassinationresearch.com/zfilm/z324.jpg)
(https://www.assassinationresearch.com/zfilm/z330.jpg)
(https://www.assassinationresearch.com/zfilm/z331.jpg)
There was a nice line up with the white marker in the grass as well- pure coincidence to the event as if it wasn't part of the production/coordination! Remember these frames are all after the supposed shot at z313 from the Sniper's nest attributed to LHO lol! You would have to say sometimes you must feel like a mushroom and that they feed you BS at night! Even Connally and his wife are out of the line of fire!!!
Meanwhile AP photo expert Altgens has a lot of frames missing between Altgens 6 and 7!
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Sure looks lie something dramatically changed at that frame, and I did always wonder why Jackie took off without seeming to look back first
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Sure looks lie something dramatically changed at that frame, and I did always wonder why Jackie took off without seeming to look back first
Seems like she's trying to escape from the horror. Perfectly understandable reaction.
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I was looking at to see if there was an old thread that dealt with witnesses to events on the grassy knoll, but couldn't really find one, so I am posting here The following link includes statements from David Powers and Kenny O'Donnell two of Kennedy's closest advisers and were in a vehicle immediately behind the Presidential limo Both believe shots came from the grassy knoll
http://spartacus-educational.com/JFKpowersDF.htm
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(http://i959.photobucket.com/albums/ae75/garcra/Altgens7crop.jpg)
Anyone recognise Holland and Simmons or wanna take a stab at it? Also seen in Dillard after some shuffling around and might be easier after checking that first.
https://www.jfkassassinationgallery.com/displayimage.php?pid=869&fullsize=1 (https://www.jfkassassinationgallery.com/displayimage.php?pid=869&fullsize=1)
JFF.
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Imo, if there was a shot from the Grassy Knoll, it was purposely a blank with smoke effect to draw attention away from the expert shooter at the SW window 6th floor TSBD and a 2nd shooter Daltex bldg. This GK shooter may have sat on the hood of the car where muddy footprints were
found including on the rear bumper of the car. There may have been one other man, whom was with him. These 2 were probably the 2 men whom Lee Bowers saw, from the railyard tower behind the GK fence.
If it was a diversion shot, from GK, then it worked, since police and crowd ran to the GK. Only 2 DPD seem to have reacted differently, Baker and Barnett. Baker, who saw pigeons fly from the rooftop of TSBD and headed that way, rushing to the front entrance, and Barnett running to the side to observe the fire escape and also the back of TSBD. Barnett however failed to secure the WEST side of TSBD for up to 3 minutes.
So what is your purpose in confusing the issue and interfering with the WC argument of a lone gunman? They all want the shots to becoming from the TSBD! At any rate, you are in full admittance of a conspiracy plan which involved a lot of people and certainly had to involve the people who are protecting the President and very close to the scene - well coordinated and not just one madman!
You are actually stating that having a diversionary shot or firecracker/smoke provesthat LHO was part of a very large plan to enact a coup d'etat and was not acting alone. Again, who were his handlers? LHO died before giving his statements! He may very well may have made some statements but they were ripped up so they were off the record and not entered in as evidence. All the papers that were left behind have been bleached. Obviously anything that did not support the single gunman theory was not being used by the WC. It was just too convenient that LHO goes down rather quickly by a PATRIOT Ruby who revenges the President's death and then dies soon after in jail! A reporter also died mysteriously who had obtained a story from Ruby - further showing the seriousness of controlling the media and the stories being issued.
Further to the argument, if you were Jacqueline Kennedy and you thought bullets were coming from behind, you wouldn't be scrambling to the trunk. You would likely be ducking out like Connally and his wife and Kellerman in the front seat! Just my opinion!