JFK Assassination Forum
JFK Assassination Discussion & Debate => JFK Assassination Discussion & Debate => Topic started by: Jake Maxwell on June 30, 2018, 04:06:13 AM
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What happened to the Mauser that was found on site after the Kennedy assassination?
Where was it found and who found it - and to whom was it registered?
I'm just wondering what information we have on this, and why it isn't considered strong evidence of a conspiracy?
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What happened to the Mauser that was found on site after the Kennedy assassination?
It evaporated into nothing, as if it never existed.
If one rejects the possibility of witness errors, one is always going to be perplexed.
Some heard all the shots come from the behind the limousine. Some heard all the shots from ahead of the limousine. How did they modulate the sounds from shots from behind so that some witnesses could hear them but others can?t? How did they do the same with the shots from the front? How did they make certain no witness heard no shots while others heard all the shots?
If one insists that the witnesses were not mistaken about the Mauser, then there are some hard to answer questions.
** How could the conspirators smuggle in the wrong type of rifle to plant?
** How did they smuggle out the Mauser without anyone seeing?
The building was surrounded by reporters, film camera and photographers.
** How did they smuggle in the Carcano without being seen?
** How is it that all the photographs and film of the rifle show a Carcano, not a Mauser?
With the right assumption, that witnesses can be mistaken about the type of rifle found, a Mauser does closely resemble a Carcano (turn of the century rifle designers did steal each other ideas) then these hard to answer questions disappear.
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It evaporated into nothing, as if it never existed.
If one rejects the possibility of witness errors, one is always going to be perplexed.
Some heard all the shots come from the behind the limousine. Some heard all the shots from ahead of the limousine. How did they modulate the sounds from shots from behind so that some witnesses could hear them but others can?t? How did they do the same with the shots from the front? How did they make certain no witness heard no shots while others heard all the shots?
If one insists that the witnesses were not mistaken about the Mauser, then there are some hard to answer questions.
** How could the conspirators smuggle in the wrong type of rifle to plant?
** How did they smuggle out the Mauser without anyone seeing?
The building was surrounded by reporters, film camera and photographers.
** How did they smuggle in the Carcano without being seen?
** How is it that all the photographs and film of the rifle show a Carcano, not a Mauser?
With the right assumption, that witnesses can be mistaken about the type of rifle found, a Mauser does closely resemble a Carcano (turn of the century rifle designers did steal each other ideas) then these hard to answer questions disappear.
There is film of a rifle WITHOUT A SCOPE being lowered from the roof and police officers and others standing around looking at it.There is film of this....there are so many threads that probably someone has posted this already.
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There is film of a rifle WITHOUT A SCOPE being lowered from the roof and police officers and others standing around looking at it.There is film of this....there are so many threads that probably someone has posted this already.
Perhaps a thread but remember, the forum went down and had to be rebuilt.
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Perhaps a thread but remember, the forum went down and had to be rebuilt.
Here is the picture of the rifle w/o scope. There is also a film called President Kennedy's Final Hour...cops on 7th floor on the East side and the rifle are at the 8:38 mark.Film is a little over 12 mins.Here is picture:
https://jfkassassinationfiles.files.wordpress.com/2016/03/mentesana-3.jpg
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There is film of a rifle WITHOUT A SCOPE being lowered from the roof and police officers and others standing around looking at it.There is film of this....there are so many threads that probably someone has posted this already.
Is that th way the police would have handled evidence? When oh when are people going to wake up and start using their God given brain??
There never ever was a mauser...... That disinformation was introduced to create confusion....And since some fools still believe there was a mauser.... the disinfo succeeded.....
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Is that th way the police would have handled evidence? When oh when are people going to wake up and start using their God given brain??
There never ever was a mauser...... That disinformation was introduced to create confusion....And since some fools still believe there was a mauser.... the disinfo succeeded.....
Anna-Marie also discovered an empty envelope, originally marked, "Shell 7.5
found in Dealey Plaza 11/22/63. This would be an expended cartridge found
somewhere in Dealey Plaza, presumably not far from where it was fired; and
regardless of where in Dealey Plaza it was found (which the envelope doesn't
state), it's a 7.5 caliber, not a 6.5 caliber like the Mannlicher-Carcano. No
one outside a very select circle, apparently, ever heard of this item before.
Why is the envelope empty? Written right after the previously quoted
description: "DETERMINED OF NO VALUE AND DESTROYED."
Well, looks like we had a 7.65 bullet recovered but no Mauser.The letter describing the delivery to Baltimore of the need to have 2 agents pick up the gun that killed JFK AND "the bullet that struck Gov. Connally" creates a REAL problem for LNs. It was written by SAC Gordon Shanklin on 11-22-63 & the agents delivered it on 12/3/63. BTW, I posted the picture of the rifle w/o the scope....it is NOT the rifle that was held by the strap (Manlicher Carcano 6.5) found on the 6th floor of the TSBD.The empty envelope in the National Archives labeled 7.65 and recovered in Dealey Plaza is a problem as well. Well come to think of it there were 4 wounds in JFK and Connally, bullet hole in the windshield,hole in the chrome trim, hole in the curb (chiseled up & removed), 2 bullet holes in the the man hole cover, one in the grass etc.
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Mr. BALL. Are you with some company?
Mr. CASTER. Yes; I am assistant manager for Southwestern Publishing Co. with offices at 411 Elm Street.
Mr. BALL. You have offices in the Texas School Book Depository Building?
Mr. CASTER. Yes.
Mr. BALL. You rent those offices from the Texas School Book Depository?
Mr. CASTER. The offices are furnished in connection with our work with the Depository.
Mr. BALL. Will you tell me something about yourself, where you were born and where you were raised and educated?
Mr. CASTER. Yes; I was born in New Mexico, educated in New Mexico, received my college degrees at New Mexico Highlands University at Las Vegas, N. Mex. I taught school in New Mexico from 1939 until I started to work with Southwestern Publishing Co. in 1952. There was a period of about 2 years that I spent in the U.S. Navy.
Mr. BALL. And have you had your offices since 1952 in the Texas School Book Depository Building?
Mr. CASTER. The offices have been in the Texas School Book Depository Building, but not in this particular building here. We have occupied three places since I have been with the Southwestern Publishing Co.
Mr. BALL. Your office is on which floor?
Mr. CASTER. Second floor.
Mr. BALL. Did you ever bring any guns into the School Book Depository Building?
Mr. CASTER. Yes; I did.
Mr. BALL. When?
Mr. CASTER. I believe it was on Wednesday, November 20, during the noon hour.
Mr. BALL. Whose guns were they?
Mr. CASTER. They were my guns.
Mr. BALL. And what kind of guns were they?
Mr. CASTER. One gun was a Remington, single-shot, .22 rifle, and the other was a .30-06 sporterized Mauser.
Mr. BALL. Who owned them?
Mr. CASTER. I had just purchased them during the noon hour that day.
Mr. BALL. Well, tell us about it---what were the circumstances of the purchase?
Mr. CASTER. Well, I left the Depository during the noon hour and had lunch and, while out for the lunch hour, I stopped by Sanger-Harris sporting goods department to look for a rifle for my son's birthday---I beg your pardon, Christmas present--son's Christmas present, and while I was there I purchased the single-shot .22--single shot--and at the same time was looking at some deer rifles. I had, oh, for several years been thinking about buying a deer rifle and they happened to have one that I liked and I purchased the .30-06 while I was there.
Mr. BALL. And did they box them up?
Mr. CASTER. They were in cartons; yes.
Mr. BALL. And then you went back to work, I guess?
Mr. CASTER. Yes; I picked both rifles up in cartons just like they were, this was during the noon hour, and as I entered the Texas School Book Depository Building on my way up to the buying office, I stopped by Mr. Truly's office, and while I was there we examined the two rifles that I had purchased.
Mr. BALL. Did you take them out of the carton?
Mr. CASTER. Yes; I did.
Mr. BALL. Who was there besides you and Mr. Truly?
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Anna-Marie also discovered an empty envelope, originally marked, "Shell 7.5
found in Dealey Plaza 11/22/63. This would be an expended cartridge found
somewhere in Dealey Plaza, presumably not far from where it was fired; and
regardless of where in Dealey Plaza it was found (which the envelope doesn't
state), it's a 7.5 caliber, not a 6.5 caliber like the Mannlicher-Carcano. No
one outside a very select circle, apparently, ever heard of this item before.
Why is the envelope empty? Written right after the previously quoted
description: "DETERMINED OF NO VALUE AND DESTROYED."
Well, looks like we had a 7.65 bullet recovered but no Mauser.The letter describing the delivery to Baltimore of the need to have 2 agents pick up the gun that killed JFK AND "the bullet that struck Gov. Connally" creates a REAL problem for LNs. It was written by SAC Gordon Shanklin on 11-22-63 & the agents delivered it on 12/3/63. BTW, I posted the picture of the rifle w/o the scope....it is NOT the rifle that was held by the strap (Manlicher Carcano 6.5) found on the 6th floor of the TSBD.The empty envelope in the National Archives labeled 7.65 and recovered in Dealey Plaza is a problem as well. Well come to think of it there were 4 wounds in JFK and Connally, bullet hole in the windshield,hole in the chrome trim, hole in the curb (chiseled up & removed), 2 bullet holes in the the man hole cover, one in the grass etc.
7.5 would be for a Lebel and not a Mauser. I guess you can rechamber the Mauser for 7.5mm Lebel, but who would want to?
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The building was surrounded by reporters, film camera and photographers.
Everything was done either long beforehand or long afterward.
The cops had what they were looking for.
Yeah a Mauser looks similar to a Carcano.... let's see, a barrel-a stock-a bolt- a trigger
(http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-e0iBuymjGDQ/VM2B3CjKd-I/AAAAAAABC_c/epx0vaMP6dw/s1600/Mauser-Carcano-Comparison.jpg)
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Walt, The Caster/Ball interview posted in this thread seems to make it very clear that there was a Mauser... and there are also pictures - film footage, that seems to indicate there was a Mauser... I don't think this is disinformation....
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Jim, I've seen part of a film with a rifle being handled and observed by several onlookers, but I don't think I've seen film of a rifle being lowered from the TSD.... Is there a link... or where to look?
Thanks.... Jake
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Walt, The Caster/Ball interview posted in this thread seems to make it very clear that there was a Mauser... and there are also pictures - film footage, that seems to indicate there was a Mauser... I don't think this is disinformation....
Believe what ever floats yer boat....But I 'm 99.9% certain that there was no mauser found in the TSBD (or on the roof)that day.
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A group of Dallas Police Department detectives, including Will Fritz, Seymour Weitzman, Roger Craig, Eugene Boone and Luke Mooney searched the Texas School Book Depository soon after the assassination of John F. Kennedy. On the sixth floor they discovered a rifle hidden beneath some boxes. The detectives identified it as a 7.65 Mauser. District Attorney Henry M. Wade, in a television interview, told the nation that the rifle was a Mauser.
http://spartacus-educational.com/JFKSmannlicher.htm
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I assume there is no debate Fritz is holding the Manlicher over his head while he is calling it a Mauser?
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Matt thanks for the welcome ! Look forward to interacting with you and others here as well. On the Mauser, I was not aware that recently released FOI info has the CIA stating in a memorandum on Nov. 25th that the rifle purchased by Oswald was a MAUSER and 3 days later the CIA states that the reports in the press of the weapon being a Mannlicher-Carcano "ARE IN ERROR". Although, Roger Craig didn't live to see this FOI info, his testimony appears to be vindicated as well as Seymour Weitzman's affidavit that he saw a Mauser. I apologize that I'm not better at editing the videos down but here is the video....The Roger Craig Story....pay special attention to the 13:00-15:00 minute mark. I know there is a video section here but when discussing a subject, I think it is better to have the info right HERE at hand. If I'm doing something wrong, please let me know.
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Roger Craig says that "7.65 Mauser" was stamped on the barrel... and the casings found were 6.5...
Why would we not believe Craig's testimony?
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Here is the picture of the rifle w/o scope. There is also a film called President Kennedy's Final Hour...cops on 7th floor on the East side and the rifle are at the 8:38 mark.Film is a little over 12 mins.Here is picture:
https://jfkassassinationfiles.files.wordpress.com/2016/03/mentesana-3.jpg
That's a shotgun. Also...see the blonde guy bottom right? That is the same spook that was over at the curb w/Buddy Walthers picking up bullets in the grass.
(https://jfkassassinationfiles.files.wordpress.com/2018/03/mentesana-3.jpg?w=534&h=400)
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Jerry, That's not a shotgun... It's a long rifle...
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Jerry, That's not a shotgun... It's a long rifle...
I'll refer you to this page...
http://www.jfkmurdersolved.com/lois1.htm
Those are shotguns.
No big deal.
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D.A. Wade called the weapon a Mauser at a press conference near midnight. Surely by then they should have known it wasn't one IF it was a M-C as claimed.
Oswald's rifle C2766 was filmed as it was picked up and this footage was broadcast on television just a few hours later.
(https://i.ytimg.com/vi/A1eD6Ac9l_E/hqdefault.jpg)
Oswald's rifle C2766 on the same afternoon was paraded in front of the press.
(https://static.politico.com/dims4/default/c201221/2147483647/resize/1160x%3E/quality/90/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fstatic.politico.com%2F75%2F80%2F6d4b362c4e78954d361b78da333b%2F17802-shenon-gun-ap.jpg)
(https://i0.wp.com/www.newnationalist.net/wp-content/uploads/2017/12/JFK-assassination-weapon.jpg?fit=1200%2C700&ssl=1)
JohnM
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Was Roger Craig a liar?
He says he saw "7.65 Mauser" stamped on the barrel of the rifle that was found....
Was he lying?
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Was Roger Craig a liar?
Back in 2008 John Simkin posted an e-mail he'd received from Michelle
Palmer, nee Deanna Craig, daughter of Roger Craig:
http://educationforum.ipbhost.com/index.php?showtopic=3556&st=30
<QUOTE ON>-----------------------------------------
John Simkin, on Jun 13 2008, 05:26 PM, said:
Email from Roger Craig's daughter:
[Quote on]
There are a few items in your article about Roger Craig you just might
want to correct for the sake of accuracy and truth in reporting. i) His
marriage didn't end due to repeated harassment or threats - unless you
count his repeated threats to end his own life. ii) The man was disturbed.
As his daughter I would place money on the fact that he suffered from
either Borderline Personality Disorder or Bi-polar depression. Those last
two attempts on his life? The husband of the woman he was fooling around
with. Trust me, I met her AND her daughters before the bastard killed
himself. The husband met him at the door with that shoulder shot.
Articles like yours only serve to continue the myth. My father was a
disturbed man. I'm not disputing that what he thought he saw was something
different than what was reported. But let's face it, my dad didn't know a
Mauser from a whatever. He was a Wisconsin farmboy who joined the army
illegally, and was released from duty because he kept injuring himself - I
note you don't mention all the self-inflicted scars from his tour of duty.
Furthermore, it is EXACTLY this kind of dramatic license that killed my
father. It fed his disease. It fed his paranoia. And in the end, it
contributed to his self-destruction. You should be ashamed of yourself for
perpetuating this garbage.
[Quote off]
<QUOTE OFF>----------------------------------------
On a related note, Michelle Palmer responds to a book review that
mentioned her dad:
http://www.thesnipenews.com/books-comics/books-vancouver/jfk-and-the-unspeakable-review/
<QUOTE ON>-----------------------------------------
Book review ? JFK and the Unspeakable
- by Adrian Mack
James Douglass? book JFK and the Unspeakable is subtitled ?Why He
Died, and Why It Matters?.
[...]
Dallas County Deputy sheriff Roger Craig has long been one of the most
credible, and certainly most tragic witnesses in this area. Shortly after
the shooting, in Dealey Plaza, Craig saw either Oswald or his double climb
into a green Rambler station wagon driven by a ?husky looking Latin.?
Craig then encountered Oswald during his interrogation at the Dallas
Police HQ, where Douglass writes, ?It was too late ? for both the
government and Roger Craig. Deputy Sheriff Craig had seen and heard too
much.?
As an insider, Craig bore witness to a number of things that cause the
official story to unravel, and he talked. His career was destroyed by his
refusal to recant his own testimony. After a number of attempts on his
life, one of which left him disabled, Craig reportedly committed suicide
in 1975.
<QUOTE OFF>----------------------------------------
<QUOTE ON>-----------------------------------------
One Response to JFK and the Unspeakable ? book review
Michelle Palmer says:
July 5, 2009 at 8:28 pm
Bullspombleprofglidnoctobuns. You are ALL so full of it. Roger Craig was unstable from
childhood. His suicide had more to do with his own mental illness (and
being sucked into the GD conspiracy crap) than anything to do with JFK?s
actual death.
I am his child. I knew him. I knew the people who used him to promote
their theories. You are ALL full of it.
<QUOTE OFF>----------------------------------------
Dave Reitzes
https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/alt.assassination.jfk/3-PfhXeqrj0%5B1-25%5D
JohnM
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Noted in an earlier post...Roger Craig was not the only one that mentioned a Mauser rifle.
From the preceding post---
Bullspombleprofglidnoctobuns. You are ALL so full of it. Roger Craig was unstable from
childhood. I am his child. I knew him. I knew the people who used him to promote
their theories. You are ALL full of it.
How could Craig's daughter know that he was "unstable from childhood"?
She couldn't have known him then ::)
Quite odd. With the tone of that above statement..who actually was the unstable one?
Until the assassination deal...he was an accredited law enforcement officer.
I doubt that she genuinely knew very many researchers.
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Noted in an earlier post...Roger Craig was not the only one that mentioned a Mauser rifle.
From the preceding post---
How could Craig's daughter know that he was "unstable from childhood"?
She couldn't have known him then ::)
Quite odd. With the tone of that above statement..who actually was the unstable one?
Until the assassination deal...he was an accredited law enforcement officer.
I doubt that she genuinely knew very many researchers.
Roger Craig was named Man Of The Year by the Sheriff's office in 1960. Craig NEVER recanted his testimony about the 7.65 Mauser being stamped "right on the barrel". As a newbie here, I notice that the LNs here constantly divert on every subject ? Why ? Their case will not hold water.So, let's not get diverted...the question is not so much can you believe Craig(I do) and is he lying but rather can you believe the CIA ? Are they lying ? I put in my video above (see from 12:00 to 14:00) the CIA Memorandum about the gun being a 7.35 Mauser(25th) and the statement that the press reports of the gun being a Mannlicher-Carcano 6.5 "IS IN ERROR".
Here is the thing...LNs use the Government (CIA in this case,FBI, SS,DPD etc)...the very rogue element used to not only do the crime but cover it up. Then when you quote their sources, they jump to Roger Craig's credibility. The question here is the CIA's credibility. In the overall argument of the JFK assassination,one only need prove that there was more than one planner or shooter or a financier, more than 3 bullets(counting the Tague bullet) which is
is unbelievably easy. The Katzenbach memo stating that the public needs to be convinced that Oswald did it and that he acted alone should have been plenty enough to cause a red flag. Further, Jack Ruby stating that if Adlai Stevenson was still in office, our beloved President Kennedy would never have been assassinated. When asked to elaborate, he states simply "The answer is the man in office now" (LBJ). In summary, there are lies and there are damn lies.
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Roger Craig was named Man Of The Year by the Sheriff's office in 1960.
IIRC, that was awarded by a police booster organization, the Dallas Traffic Commission, not the Sherriff's Dept. And it was for his work on a single case.
Craig NEVER recanted his testimony about the 7.65 Mauser being stamped "right on the barrel".
Whaddaya mean??? He didn't start saying that until 1973. He didn't even see fit to include it in his 1971 monograph, "When They Kill a President." In '68, he told one LA alternaweekly that the 6th floor rifle was a Carcano, but the Mauser was found on the roof.
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People have been discussed this on the web for 2 decades. The issue was resolved more than 50 years ago!
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And from the biography it states " Craig worked for the Purex Corporation before joining the Dallas Police Department in 1959. He was named Man of the Year by the sheriff's office in 1960 for his work in aid in helping to capture an international jewel chief. He had a successful career in the DPD and was promoted four times".
Lastly, Alyea film :
Who thinks this gun at the beginning looks like the scoped Mannlicher-Carcano with sling that is held up later in this same short film ? Of course, it could be some more crackerjack detective work...you know, why hold it by the sling and have a scope when you can just grab the gun with your hand.
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And from the biography it states " Craig worked for the Purex Corporation before joining the Dallas Police Department in 1959. He was named Man of the Year by the sheriff's office in 1960 for his work in aid in helping to capture an international jewel chief. He had a successful career in the DPD and was promoted four times".
Lastly, Alyea film :
Who thinks this gun at the beginning looks like the scoped Mannlicher-Carcano with sling that is held up later in this same short film ? Of course, it could be some more crackerjack detective work...you know, why hold it by the sling and have a scope when you can just grab the gun with your hand.
Mr Brazell....If you are unable to identify the rifle that Lt Day pulls from beneath the boxes of books, as a model 91/38 Mannlicher Carcano then you probably would benefit by going to Wiki and learning what a Carcano looks like.
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First,I know you'll want to comment on the CIA memos of 11-25 & 11-28-63 stating the gun was in fact a 7.35 Mauser(25th) and that the press reports indicating the gun was a Mannlicher-Carcano " ARE IN ERROR"(28th). What a crackerjack job of crime solving....case wrapped up in 24 hours but THREE and even SIX days later the CIA is disputing the Mannlicher Carcano as being the gun.
So where did the CIA get their information? AFAIK, Mauser never made a 7.35mm rifle. That caliber is well-associated with the Carcano, however. Italy was in the process of moving to 7.35 from 6.5 when WWI broke out, and went back to 6.5 as an expediency. Most 7.35 Caracanos then in existence were converted to 6.5, and the rest of the 7.35s were issued to rear echelon and other second-line troops.
And from the biography it states " Craig worked for the Purex Corporation before joining the Dallas Police Department in 1959. He was named Man of the Year by the sheriff's office in 1960 for his work in aid in helping to capture an international jewel chief. He had a successful career in the DPD and was promoted four times".
Craig didn't work for the DPD. He was a deputy Sherriff.
Lastly, Alyea film :
Who thinks this gun at the beginning looks like the scoped Mannlicher-Carcano with sling that is held up later in this same short film ? Of course, it could be some more crackerjack detective work...you know, why hold it by the sling and have a scope when you can just grab the gun with your hand.
It does look like the rifle held up later in the film. And if you can't tell that the rifle that Day is holding at the end of the clip is a Carcano, well, I just don't know what to tell you.
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I get a chuckle out of the fact that in spite of no shots being fired from the 6th floor , those dumbass conspirators actually planted TWO different rifles up there. Now if that ain't brilliant.
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So the plan was to link Oswald to a MC rifle but then use a Mauser to assassinate JFK? And they left both a Mauser and MC rifle in the TSBD but the shots were fired from the Grassy Knoll? LOL. Assume the fetal position in some dark place and try to give that some thought in the context of a plan to frame Oswald. See if you can think of any logical inconsistencies. In every high profile investigation there are misstatements made in the initial stages. That is why investigators largely tend not to discuss ongoing cases anymore. Unfortunately, in an effort to be transparent the DPD made some misstatements that CTers cling to with pedantic desperation to this day in lieu of any actual evidence to support their fantasy.
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According to the original Mentesana film seen by Jim Garrison it was a rifle brought down from the roof and it had no scope on it.
[/quote
And that film is no longer available?
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According to the original Mentesana film seen by Jim Garrison it was a rifle brought down from the roof and it had no scope on it.
[/quote
And that film is no longer available?
Garrison must have been smoking when he saw a rifle being brought down. One more proof he was crazy.
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Did any PO put a mark on that rifle before it left TSBD?
anybody know?
I'm pretty sure once Day took possession he figured why should he . Reading his testimony I get out of it that no one did. He most likely put his id on at the station.
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The only film showing brought out the building is the Owen/WBAP film.
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"One of many myths that will never go away no matter how soundly debunked."
As much as I hate to agree with you, Mr Hess.....I'm compelled to agree completely. There will always be gullible unthinking suckers who will argue that there was a mauser found in or on the TSBD......
Thumb1:
Well said Walt. We don't always agree but you are right on this one.
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We know that Weitzman,Craig,Fritz,Boone etc. all said the gun was a Mauser. Why the confusion? The dang guy with Fritz is looking at the gun with a MAGNIFYING GLASS at the 2 minute mark here while Fritz holds the gun and still can't ID the gun ? For real ? Fritz even points to a spot for him to view even further. So, these keystone cops even with a magnifying glass describe the gun as a Mauser. Is it ? I don't know...my question...why so hard? 5 cops and a police Captain can't correctly identify the gun even with a magnifying glass ? Finally, at the 2:55 mark is another non scoped gun in the picture as well...does it match the gun at the beginning of the Alyea film ?
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We know that Weitzman,Craig,Fritz,Boone etc. all said the gun was a Mauser. Why the confusion? The dang guy with Fritz is looking at the gun with a MAGNIFYING GLASS at the 2 minute mark here while Fritz holds the gun and still can't ID the gun ? For real ? Fritz even points to a spot for him to view even further. So, these keystone cops even with a magnifying glass describe the gun as a Mauser. Is it ? I don't know...my question...why so hard? 5 cops and a police Captain can't correctly identify the gun even with a magnifying glass ? Finally, at the 2:55 mark is another non scoped gun in the picture as well...does it match the gun at the beginning of the Alyea film ?
When did Fritz say that the rifle was a Mauser?
Weitzman and Boone both admitted that they were mistaken.
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Was Roger Craig a liar?
He says he saw "7.65 Mauser" stamped on the barrel of the rifle that was found....
Was he lying?
Yes, Roger Craig was lying.
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Is this the press in the SN while he pulls that gun out?
How do we know when Alyea made his film --was he called back for stagings?
(https://farm1.staticflickr.com/841/43091476492_3ea48c8e30_z.jpg)
1:49 here:
Uh...NO. Alyea had to throw the film out the window from the 6th floor to a colleague to get it to the station. There was no later staging.
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I didn't think the press was allowed up there until later
certainly not while they search
Kent Biffle of the DMN and WFAA cameraman Tom Alyea entered the TSBD together. They followed the policemen in the search even though they were told they had to get out. The other guy who is taking note is unknown to me. I doubt anybody here knows who he is.
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I didn't think the press was allowed up there until later
certainly not while they search
(https://farm1.staticflickr.com/841/43091476492_3ea48c8e30_z.jpg)
True...here is longer version Alyea...he describes how he got in (no others...cardoned off)
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****Is this the press on the 6th floor as they find the rifle?
How do we know when Alyea made his film --was he called later for stagings?*********
The man on the right is DMN reporter Kent Biffle. He never reported any staging.
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I very much have respect for those here that say the Mauser question is dead, but could somebody tell me what we are looking at that looks like a second rifle? I missed it until the video that superimposed a highlighted outline of it in Jim's video clip
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Yes, Roger Craig was lying.
What do you think was Craig's motivation for lying about the rifle?
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well, he wouldn't call it that --did he report being there when they found the rifle?
I'm sure I read Alyea was the only one allowed while they search
You may have read that in a conspiracy book, but Biffle was there during the search. Listen to Biffle himself:
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As for the CIA document, the writer was not even on the 6th floor during the search. I have not seen that document for many years, but I bet he was never even in Dallas.
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If Roger Craig was lying about the Mauser, what would his motivation have been?
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It is often claimed that Craig never said a word about the Mauser until 1968
However In a response to David Josephs at the Education Forum last year
Even in your article The Mauser, the Carcano & the Lt. Day Rifle," you wrote, "One of them, DPD Detective Roger CRAIG - a decorated officer, saw ?7.65? and ?MAUSER? stamped on the barrel both facing the same direction ? an extremely specific identification."
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***
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What do you think was Craig's motivation for lying about the rifle?
TIME: 8/24 1:25 PM
TO: BILL AMBROSINO
FROM: MARY FERRELL
SUBJECT: JFK-CIA EXPERTISE
I knew Roger Craig for several years before his death. It is my belief
that Roger was a very sick young man. He had made a name for himself as a
very promising young law enforcement officer. When he came forward with
some of the "stories" he told following the events of that November
weekend, he believed that he would be offered a great deal of money and,
possibly, speaking engagements. I am very sorry to say that I am one of
the few conspiracy nuts who never believed Roger Craig.
When Roger made a number of speeches about the fact that "they" prevented
him from getting a job, I talked my husband into giving him a job. Roger
did not want to work. He wanted people to give him money because he had
"seen something or other."
I have made enemies because I have continued to say that I have never
really believed him.
Mary Ferrell
https://groups.google.com/forum/#!msg/alt.assassination.jfk/wwrhNDD-YGQ/YLFb8HGA2pMJ
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It is often claimed that Craig never said a word about the Mauser until 1968
However In a response to David Josephs at the Education Forum last year
Even in your article The Mauser, the Carcano & the Lt. Day Rifle," you wrote, "One of them, DPD Detective Roger CRAIG - a decorated officer, saw ?7.65? and ?MAUSER? stamped on the barrel both facing the same direction ? an extremely specific identification."
Regarding 1 Craig's 1968 mention of the Mauser: This false info was given by reporter Thayer Waldo to the Warren Commission. He heard it from a lady who heard it from a DPD official. Hearsay. And it looks like Craig just repeated what Penn Jones told him. Basically, Craig is not talking about first-hand information. The first time he mentioned the Mauser on the 6th floor was in 1971. He did not mention to either Garrison or Mark Lane during their multiple interviews. If he had, they would have made a big deal out of it during the Clay Shaw trial. Finally, Craig does not say if it is him who saw the Mauser stamp or if it is Weitzman telling him that. Craig was a big liar.
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Do you realize he puts the LHO/Baker encounter on the 1st floor as he (Biffle) walks in?
and he's not exactly clear when he went up - he went on his own - and he says only him & Alyea are the only ones allowed
then who are these [at least 3] other guys...?
(https://farm1.staticflickr.com/841/43091476492_3ea48c8e30_z.jpg)
Man in the extreme left with hat is still unidentified. He is seen talking to Officer Roy Vaughn in front of the TSBD in some KRLD clips and many photos like Murray's. He is holding a trench coat. I think he is one of the men looking for evidence on the ground in the Darnell film. He's not one of Fritz' men. Probably from some federal agencies.
A man in hat appears briefly in the background at 1:47. It is Deputy Chief Lumpkin.
1:32: Deputy Sheriff John "Bill" Wiseman. I will soon publish his 1978 HSCA interview. He said that Boone was about to touch the rifle. Wiseman yelled at him, "Don't touch it!".
Of course, we have Studebaker taking photos. According to Craig, he or Day took photos of the Mauser. No such photos have ever surfaced. Of course, there was no Mauser, so no photos!!
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I'll tell you what..I definitely am not a firearms expert. However, give me a MAGNIFYING GLASS and put a rifle in front of me and if the make and serial number are readable (and they were), I'll tell you the make and serial number. There was no timer running.Especially if I'm Will Fritz (Bonnie & Clyde fame I believe) and initially say it looks like a Mauser (Boone's testimony) when discovered between the boxes. The rifle never leaves the TSBD with an erroneous description going out over all news outlets until the next day when it is corrected BY THE FBI. You don't come off looking like Ned and the first reader. Same with Weitzman and Craig....I mean seriously how long does it take to ID a rifle with a magnifying glass ? Geez. And the first gun shown in the Alyea film seems to have a silencer on it. Keep in mind Alyea and Bittner are the only 2 newsmen there I believe.
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Thanks for all your information Denis and the Biffle video in particular. I am not sure how important it is but his story seems a bit odd, and seems to lack anything involving the finding of the rifle That is not a criticism of its value overall Biffle says he is 8 or so cars back from JFK when he hears the first shot and gets out. Then claims he is at the Grassy Knoll, which would seemingly be 150ft approximately, and that he gets there and nothing is going on ,has time for a chat with a derelict and then gets back to the book depository right as Oswald is leaving At a minimum he says he's there when they find the shells and I believe that was pretty early.
In regard to Craig I will defer to your understandings and concede that Craig is not on record until 1971 But why does Belin not even ask him about any sort of description or Identification of the rifle? The Warren Commission and DPD knew they had a problem with the initial statement of a Mauser, so wouldn't they being looking to clarify a glaring error?
If anyone can weigh in on whether close up photos of the rifle on the sixth floor were taken, but are not in evidence There was an official police photographer there as well? Do we know what pictures are Aylea's and which were official? It's hard to understand why no photo would exist from the scene on whatever was stamped on that rifle
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I'll tell you what..I definitely am not a firearms expert. However, give me a MAGNIFYING GLASS and put a rifle in front of me and if the make and serial number are readable (and they were), I'll tell you the make and serial number. There was no timer running.Especially if I'm Will Fritz (Bonnie & Clyde fame I believe) and initially say it looks like a Mauser (Boone's testimony) when discovered between the boxes. The rifle never leaves the TSBD with an erroneous description going out over all news outlets until the next day when it is corrected BY THE FBI. You don't come off looking like Ned and the first reader. Same with Weitzman and Craig....I mean seriously how long does it take to ID a rifle with a magnifying glass ? Geez. And the first gun shown in the Alyea film seems to have a silencer on it. Keep in mind Alyea and Bittner are the only 2 newsmen there I believe.
Jim, I ask you again, when did Will Fritz say that the rifle was a Mauser?
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Thanks for all your information Denis and the Biffle video in particular. I am not sure how important it is but his story seems a bit odd, and seems to lack anything involving the finding of the rifle That is not a criticism of its value overall Biffle says he is 8 or so cars back from JFK when he hears the first shot and gets out. Then claims he is at the Grassy Knoll, which would seemingly be 150ft approximately, and that he gets there and nothing is going on ,has time for a chat with a derelict and then gets back to the book depository right as Oswald is leaving At a minimum he says he's there when they find the shells and I believe that was pretty early.
In regard to Craig I will defer to your understandings and concede that Craig is not on record until 1971 But why does Belin not even ask him about any sort of description or Identification of the rifle? The Warren Commission and DPD knew they had a problem with the initial statement of a Mauser, so wouldn't they being looking to clarify a glaring error?
If anyone can weigh in on whether close up photos of the rifle on the sixth floor were taken, but are not in evidence There was an official police photographer there as well? Do we know what pictures are Aylea's and which were official? It's hard to understand why no photo would exist from the scene on whatever was stamped on that rifle
Matt, they were able to clarify the glaring error in their questioning of Weitzman and Boone during their WC testimonies.
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It is often claimed that Craig never said a word about the Mauser until 1968
However In a response to David Josephs at the Education Forum last year
Even in your article The Mauser, the Carcano & the Lt. Day Rifle," you wrote, "One of them, DPD Detective Roger CRAIG - a decorated officer, saw ?7.65? and ?MAUSER? stamped on the barrel both facing the same direction ? an extremely specific identification."
Yeah, but when did Craig say it? Earliest reference I know of is '73. Craig doesn't mention it in "When They Kill a President" which he wrote a couple of years earlier. Kind of an odd thing to omit. And he didn't mention it in either his LA interview with Penn Jones in '67/'68 or in his testimony in the Shaw trial.
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Wouldn't the most obvious form of identifying the rifle simply be reading what was stamped on it? Maybe an affidavit might include what was stamped on the rifleI haven't read Weitzman and Bonne's testimony but I will ask in advance whether they were asked about a stamp? It is pretty clear what the answer is or we wouldn't be having this discussion
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Craig was presented with a photo of a rifle during his Shaw trial testimony. He said he had seen a rifle similar to the one in the photo. We'll probably never know what photo he was shown, but it's probably the pic of Oswald's rifle. He did not say what type of rifle it was.
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Boone's W transcript at McAdams is missing at the moment. Weitzman says he was only able to glance at the rifle. You might not want to right an affidavit at something you glanced at
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Boone's W transcript at McAdams is missing at the moment. Weitzman says he was only able to glance at the rifle. You might not want to right an affidavit at something you glanced at
Boone said "And at first, not knowing what it was, I thought it was 7.65 Mauser." He heard someone say "it looks like a 7.65 Mauser." He thought that that someone was Fritz. It was likely Weitzman.
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Boone's W transcript at McAdams is missing at the moment. Weitzman says he was only able to glance at the rifle. You might not want to right an affidavit at something you glanced at
In the early late 50's and '60's, Argentina was dumping a lot of model 1891 rifles. These had single-stack magazines that extended below the the forestock to about the bottom of the trigger guard. Pretty much like a Carcano. The next version of the Mauser design --and all subsequent models-- used a two-stack magazine that was contained completely by the forestock. I suspect that Weitzman had run into an Argentine M1891 or two at some point, and mistook the similarly-magazined Carcano for a weapon he was familiar with.
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Boone said "And at first, not knowing what it was, I thought it was 7.65 Mauser." He heard someone say "it looks like a 7.65 Mauser." He thought that that someone was Fritz. It was likely Weitzman.
Boone didn't say that it was likely Weitzman..LOL. YOU are saying that...BIG difference.Boone's testimony:
The CHAIRMAN." Sheriff, thank you very much.
Mr. BALL. There is one question. Did you hear anybody refer to this rifle
as a Mauser that day?
Mr. BOONE. Yes, I did. And at first, not knowing what it was, I thought it
was 7.65 Mauser.
Mr. BALL. Who referred to it as a Mauser that day?
Mr. BOONE. I believe Captain Fritz. He had knelt down there to look at it,
and before he removed it, not knowing what it was, he said that is what it looks
like. This is when Lieutenant Day, I believe his name is, the ID man was getting
ready to photograph it.
We were just discussing it back and forth"
When the gun was actually out from between the boxes and the magnifying glass was on it with Fritz standing there...why no ID from Mr.ID, Day ? Goodness!
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In the early late 50's and '60's, Argentina was dumping a lot of model 1891 rifles. These had single-stack magazines that extended below the the forestock to about the bottom of the trigger guard. Pretty much like a Carcano. The next version of the Mauser design --and all subsequent models-- used a two-stack magazine that was contained completely by the forestock. I suspect that Weitzman had run into an Argentine M1891 or two at some point, and mistook the similarly-magazined Carcano for a weapon he was familiar with.
It's frustrating to read that some members still entertain the idea that there was a mauser found in or on the TSBD that day.
There is absolutely no evidence of the rifle that had been carefully hidden beneath boxes of books, was anything other than a mannlicher carcano...
However when the DPD created the fake in stu photo of the rifle I believe they substituted a mauser for creating the photos, because the carcano was no available at the time they created the fake photos ( The carcano was in the FBI lab in Washington DC)
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It's frustrating to read that some members still entertain the idea that there was a mauser found in or on the TSBD that day.
There is absolutely no evidence of the rifle that had been carefully hidden beneath boxes of books, was anything other than a mannlicher carcano...
However when the DPD created the fake in stu photo of the rifle I believe they substituted a mauser for creating the photos, because the carcano was no available at the time they created the fake photos ( The carcano was in the FBI lab in Washington DC)
Some people can't be dissuaded of their pet fantasy. Like, for example, those who think the red circles on the TSBD were some sort of signal or warning. You can't dissuade such kooks of these fantasies with facts or evidence because they would not have reached these conclusions in the first place were they capable of rational thought.
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Does anyone know if anything in the recently released JFK documents mentions a Mauser, or the rifle that was found?
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The fabrication that the Mauser was buried under boxes is *your* invention. I have never said and I have never seen any other real CTer say this either.
When you have to lie to make your point all that you have done is shown that you are willing to lie to make your point.
Rob.....Why do you take my post as a personal criticism ? And what part of my post do you consider to be a lie?
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Some people can't be dissuaded of their pet fantasy. Like, for example, those who think the red circles on the TSBD were some sort of signal or warning. You can't dissuade such kooks of these fantasies with facts or evidence because they would not have reached these conclusions in the first place were they capable of rational thought.
Pssssst....Richie..... There is photographic PROOF that there was seven red rings on the windows of the TSBD at the time of the coup d e'tat.... We can argue about the meaning of those red rings but there's no denying that they were there...and there is also photographic PROOF that the rifle that was found where it had been carefully hidden beneath heavy boxes of books was the mannlicher carcano.....
Photos prove that my positions on both issues are valid......
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really?
you might have that backwards
who's the press guy in the middle? writing
(https://farm1.staticflickr.com/841/43091476492_3ea48c8e30_z.jpg)
Unknown who he is.
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Boone didn't say that it was likely Weitzman..LOL. YOU are saying that...BIG difference.Boone's testimony:
The CHAIRMAN." Sheriff, thank you very much.
Mr. BALL. There is one question. Did you hear anybody refer to this rifle
as a Mauser that day?
Mr. BOONE. Yes, I did. And at first, not knowing what it was, I thought it
was 7.65 Mauser.
Mr. BALL. Who referred to it as a Mauser that day?
Mr. BOONE. I believe Captain Fritz. He had knelt down there to look at it,
and before he removed it, not knowing what it was, he said that is what it looks
like. This is when Lieutenant Day, I believe his name is, the ID man was getting
ready to photograph it.
We were just discussing it back and forth"
When the gun was actually out from between the boxes and the magnifying glass was on it with Fritz standing there...why no ID from Mr.ID, Day ? Goodness!
"I believe Captain Fritz" is not the same as "It was Captain Fritz". Not only did Fritz never state on record that the rifle looked like a Mauser, he actually stated under oath that he never thought it was a Mauser. He was sure that he did not ever say that it was a 7.65 Mauser (http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/russ/testimony/fritz1.htm).
Mr. BALL. Was there any conversation you heard that this rifle was a Mauser?
Mr. FRITZ. I heard all kinds of reports about that rifle. They called it most everything.
Mr. BALL. Did you hear any conversation right there that day?
Mr. FRITZ. Right at that time?
Mr. BALL. Yes
Mr. FRITZ. I just wouldn't be sure because there were so many people talking at the same time, I might have; I am not sure whether I did or not.
Mr. BALL. Did you think it was a Mauser?
Mr. FRITZ. No, sir; I knew--you can read on the rifle what it was and you could also see on the cartridge what caliber it was.
Mr. BALL. Well, did you ever make any---did you ever say that it was a 7.65 Mauser?
Mr. FRITZ. No, sir; I am sure I did not.
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When did Will Fritz say the rifle was an MC?
I'm not sure of the earliest time that Fritz referred to the rifle as a Carcano. Although, he is listed as one of the three officers who submitted the rifle to the Crime Lab on Nov 22, 1963.
On December 23, 1963, he specifically referred to the rifle as a 6.5 caliber Carcano carbine rifle.
https://texashistory.unt.edu/ark:/67531/metapth190236/m1/1/
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JFK Assassination First official public announcement of identification the Rifle as a Carcano
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Ask Boone as he testified to this:
Mr. BALL - Who referred to it as a Mauser that day?
Mr. BOONE - I believe Captain Fritz. He had knelt down there to look at it, and before he removed it, not knowing what it was, he said that is what it looks like. This is when Lieutenant Day, I believe his name is, the ID man was getting ready to photograph it.
We were just discussing it beck and forth. And he said it looks like a 7.65 Mauser.
It looks like a Mauser said Fritz.
And a Carcano looks like a Mauser.
What's your point?
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is that Saturday?
and so nothing from the DPD on 11/22 having found it & described it as an MC?
I think it was Friday, but not totally sure. It was approximately 6PM.
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I've just uploaded an excerpt of John Wiseman's HSCA interview in which he says that Day thought it was a MC. But that's 15 years later. After all that time, you sometimes make a soup of facts consisting of things you saw and things you heard people saying years later, etc. During an interview, you tend to present a story that is coherent and you want to show what you're talking about (or you may say you don't want come across as an idiot). :D
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looks like more press.
So how do we know when Alyea took his film?
There is now sure way to know when it was taken. There is no timestamp on the film itself. There is no clock visible. Where is the Alyea film showing the Mauser???
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"I believe Captain Fritz" is not the same as "It was Captain Fritz". Not only did Fritz never state on record that the rifle looked like a Mauser, he actually stated under oath that he never thought it was a Mauser. He was sure that he did not ever say that it was a 7.65 Mauser (http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/russ/testimony/fritz1.htm).
Mr. BALL. Was there any conversation you heard that this rifle was a Mauser?
Mr. FRITZ. I heard all kinds of reports about that rifle. They called it most everything.
Mr. BALL. Did you hear any conversation right there that day?
Mr. FRITZ. Right at that time?
Mr. BALL. Yes
Mr. FRITZ. I just wouldn't be sure because there were so many people talking at the same time, I might have; I am not sure whether I did or not.
Mr. BALL. Did you think it was a Mauser?
Mr. FRITZ. No, sir; I knew--you can read on the rifle what it was and you could also see on the cartridge what caliber it was.
Mr. BALL. Well, did you ever make any---did you ever say that it was a 7.65 Mauser?
Mr. FRITZ. No, sir; I am sure I did not.
Mr. FRITZ. No, sir; I knew--you can read on the rifle what it was and you could also see on the cartridge what caliber it was.
That statement begs the question that I've asked on here many times......there was even a magnifying glass to view the rifle and the caliber on the 6th floor....so , why the confusion? Why when Weitzman said "It IS a Mauser" is there not a reply that no it's here on the gun it's a MC. Why was Mauser reported on all the news outlets, Weitzman's statement the next day, Wade PC, etc.,etc It took 24 hours to get a correct ID on a gun where as Fritz said you can read on the gun the make and caliber.
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Looks like the Day segment above was taken out of the following clip. If so, then it is Friday.
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Friday
Thumb1: ...agreed
That's 6:16p Dallas time?
Dallas/CST Time.
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Looks like the Day segment above was taken out of the following clip. If so, then it is Friday.
Of course it would be Friday. The rifle was in Washington on Saturday.
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One more question (if you know)
Rifle & other evidence went to Wash - FBI around Midnight (Fri)
did the rifle come back on Saturday? - or when?
The rifle came back to Dallas on Sunday afternoon.
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is that Saturday?
and so nothing in writing from the DPD on 11/22 having found it & described it as an MC?
(https://i.imgur.com/OECFARH.jpg)
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(https://i.imgur.com/OECFARH.jpg)
Not published in any conspiracy books. :)
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can you confirm the date of that document?
Do you think we have a proper chain of custody for CE 139?
The date is on the top right corner of the document.
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(https://i.imgur.com/OECFARH.jpg)
That's a very short statement....wonder why the date and 1940 Made in Italy needed to be written in ? In addition, Day looks to be in a 2nd colored pen. That's a lot of work for a short description.The DPD, in particular Curry, were NOT HAPPY with the FBI. I can post a film if necessary where Curry is telling newsman in the hall that he understands the FBI knew info and didn't share it with DPD. Also that in the past the FBI had always worked with them. He is CLEARLY Po'd with the FBI for about 2 mins.or so. There is a news clip describing 3 gun descriptions...a British gun and the 3 shells as being 303, a MC and a 7.65 Mauser. Lt. Day with a magnifying glass and Fritz pointing out writing on the gun should have had an almost immediate ID.
Day took the gun to the lab about 7:30 that evening for evidence search. (Don't know what he was doing for over 6 hours between the 6th floor finding and that evening). Think around 6:30 he had the gun hoisted for media. There is film/pictures of him holding the gun by the trigger handle (unreal).I think the FBI took over all the evidence/the case (LBJ where he had control) and hence Curry's frustration with the FBI.
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handwritten - different than the type is no confirmation
could have been added any time
LOL...absolutely correct Michael ! You mean you are bothering to type a statement and the date is not important...in the crime of the century ? Give me a minute and let me stop laughing. Oh, I forgot there seems to be a handwritten Studebaker added as well. I wouldn't have even trotted this trash out.Taking a break...my sides are hurting from laughter.
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LOL...absolutely correct Michael ! You mean you are bothering to type a statement and the date is not important...in the crime of the century ? Give me a minute and let me stop laughing. Oh, I forgot there seems to be a handwritten Studebaker added as well. I wouldn't have even trotted this trash out.Taking a break...my sides are hurting from laughter.
Jim, what exactly are you trying to say because here's what we know that can be proved beyond all doubt.
An Italian Carcano was filmed on the 6th floor and this footage of an Italian Carcano was broadcast on the afternoon of the 22nd. In the following video from DVP's YT channel @3:25 we see Oswald's Italian Carcano being shown that afternoon on WFAA-TV.
Here's how we know that Oswald's Carcano is the actual rifle found on the 6th floor because C2766 the rifle that Oswald bought from Kleins had a unique random gouge on the the forestock and this random gouge is exactly replicated on the 6th floor Italian Carcano and the Italian Carcano that is seen being held by Lt Day at the DPD and all on the 22nd.
(https://s15.postimg.cc/pyg700iff/Crapasse.jpg)
And if that wasn't enough here's an Italian Carcano being removed from the Depository on the same afternoon.
(https://i.pinimg.com/originals/93/63/08/93630813a749bc6faa2a132bb39f3599.jpg)
JohnM
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Handwritten dates can be added later
especially if backtracking
There's no doubt in my mind that Day added the information and date later.....Because on the night of the coup d e'tat when the evidence was inventoried before releasing it to the FBI the rifle was listed on the inventory sheet as...
Quote.... " 1 Italian make 6.5 rifle, serial number C 2766, blue steel, wood stock, brown leather sling, with 4 X 18 Coated Ordinance Optics Inc. Hollywood California. 0 10 Japan telescopic sight." unquote
The date 1940 and Made in Italy were NOT on the evidence inventory list for midnight 11/22/63.
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This is somewhat off topic... but is this a metal detector in the picture with the gun?
Or a parking meter on the curve (which would be odd)??
(https://image.ibb.co/iMkkhJ/Screen_Shot_2018_07_02_at_9_50_41_PM.png)
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This is somewhat off topic... but is this a metal detector in the picture with the gun?
Or a parking meter on the curve (which would be odd)??
(https://image.ibb.co/iMkkhJ/Screen_Shot_2018_07_02_at_9_50_41_PM.png)
Or, maybe a temporary flashing amber light.
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Jim, what exactly are you trying to say because here's what we know that can be proved beyond all doubt.
An Italian Carcano was filmed on the 6th floor and this footage of an Italian Carcano was broadcast on the afternoon of the 22nd. In the following video from DVP's YT channel @3:25 we see Oswald's Italian Carcano being shown that afternoon on WFAA-TV.
Here's how we know that Oswald's Carcano is the actual rifle found on the 6th floor because C2766 the rifle that Oswald bought from Kleins had a unique random gouge on the the forestock and this random gouge is exactly replicated on the 6th floor Italian Carcano and the Italian Carcano that is seen being held by Lt Day at the DPD and all on the 22nd.
(https://s15.postimg.cc/pyg700iff/Crapasse.jpg)
And if that wasn't enough here's an Italian Carcano being removed from the Depository on the same afternoon.
(https://i.pinimg.com/originals/93/63/08/93630813a749bc6faa2a132bb39f3599.jpg)
JohnM
My goodness....I'm new here but I see how this works. No disrespect intended but No one answers my questions about identifying the rifle found BY THE SERIAL NUMBER AND MAKE STAMPED ON THE RIFLE !!! Why look at the some random gouge...just take the magnifying glass and look at this info. There's a reason why they stamp this stuff on the gun ! This isn't rocket science.So, MY QUESTION is why not simply look at this info and resolve all doubt ? I posted this very SAME film here myself. There is a shorter Alyea film that starts with a man in a suit with a rifle(as only 2 newsmen were supposedly there and it was cordoned off we assume it's a law enforcement official)...as he quickly moves away from the window, he first looks like he wants to make a quick exit through the boxes on the right side and seeing that is not possible he heads straight ahead toward the camera man. The gun has no scope and appears to have a silencer on it. A similar rifle with no scope is seen on the street with a gathering around it.
So to keep this on a see Spot run, see Spot catch the ball level....1). WHY was the gun not identified by serial number and make on the spot....the gun was right in front of he & Fritz...magnifying glass in hand. 2). WHY not an immediate rebuttal of Weitzman's "It IS a Mauser" if it was known as you saythat it was a MC ? 3). WHY allow such misinformation to hit the media and take 24 hours to be corrected? 4). Why would Day handle the gun(such crucial evidence) by the trigger & trigger handle? 5) WHY is it assumed that only one gun was found?...there are pictures of 2 and possibly 3 guns found. There are witnesses stating there was movement on the SOUTHWEST corner of the 6th floor right before the shooting If 2-5 are too taxing, please answer #1 !!!
This has been just on the Mauser subject...what make and caliber of rifle do you think fired from the 2nd floor of the County Records Bldg. in the Robert Hughes film ? windshield hole? manhole cover ? I mean I can go on.
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Jim, I looked at the Alyea film again... The narrator does say "there's an officer with the gun"... The officer is looking out the window and then walks toward the camera. The gun he is holding really looks like a pump shot-gun, in my opinion (if I'm actually looking at the same one you mention). It would be good if we had better film copy to analyze...
But yes, I agree. On site where the gun was found, there should have been positive identification without any question or doubt. Instead we get "it looks like... he said it was..., etc."
We're either dealing with the Keystone cops, or there is something else, perhaps sinister, going on with the Mauser issue....
Jake
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It would also be nice to get a clearer picture of what went on for those 45 minutes until they found the rifle
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This is pedantic nonsense. Here is a simple question. Why would the conspirators link Oswald to an MC rifle but leave a Mauser at the TSBD? If you don't believe any shots were fired from the TSBD, why leave two guns there? If you think JFK was assassinated with the Mauser, why not link Oswald to that rifle instead of the MC rifle and save themselves the obvious risk and trouble of having to retrieve a second rifle from the authorities? The Mauser issue is completely ridiculous. Second only to the endless thread about the bag. A misstatement was made because the MC rifle looks similar. It is then repeated by others. Eventually it is corrected. End of story.
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The fundamental level of analysis is the authorities ability to investigate the scene and to record their findings
A second level would be to tie the evidence at the scene to a shooter and other physical evidence
A third level would be for the authorities involved to justify any inconsistencies in their investigation
At the bottom of the list is Richard Smith's belief that those who question anything are at the top of the list in terms of justifying their questions
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The fundamental level of analysis is the authorities ability to investigate the scene and to record their findings
A second level would be to tie the evidence at the scene to a shooter and other physical evidence
A third level would be for the authorities involve to justify any inconsistencies
At the bottom of the list is Richard Smith's belief that those who question anything are at the top of the list in terms of justifying their questions
Translate that into a coherent thought. Again, the question is why would any second rifle (i.e. the Mauser) be left at the crime scene in a conspiracy scenario to frame Oswald? Try to focus on the logical inconsistencies of doing so and then draw an inference as to whether it happened. There are two possibilities in your fantasy conspiracy scenario: 1) Any rifle left at the TSBD was intended to link Oswald to the crime. The MC does this, but a second rifle does the opposite. It suggests someone else was involved. Not good for your fantasy conspirators. So that doesn't explain it. 2) The Mauser was used in the assassination. If that's the case, why not just link Oswald to the Mauser instead of the MC rifle? Use all the same forged evidence etc. Obviously that wasn't done. And think of the complexities of having to retrieve all the bullets and fragments fired from a Mauser to replace them with those from an MC rifle when all the conspirators had to do was link Oswald to whatever gun they decided to commit the assassination.
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Translate that into a coherent thought.
Ah yes the incoherency argument It is a beauty since it absolves you of all necessity to respond to anything Normally I would say you have all the right moves of a finely trained polemicist, but that would imply you stand and fight but that ain't you
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I shared this document on ACJ years ago during a long debate about the clip issue, and none of the LNers were aware of it. It is funny that they are using it now.
So let me get this straight -- a supposed important document regarding the assassination of JFK and the DPD cannot afford LETTERHEAD paper. What?
Where are the "cc" and "bcc" on this document?
It would be good to see an example of how the DPD documented other evidence from other crime scenes...
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Description of Rifle [WCR]
The bolt-action, clip-fed rifle found on the sixth floor of the Depository, described more fully in appendix X, is inscribed with various markings, including "MADE ITALY," "CAL. 6.5," "1940" and the number C2766.126 (See Commission Exhibit Nos. 1303, 541(2) and 541 (3), pp. 82-83.)
These markings have been explained as follows: "MADE ITALY" refers to its origin; "CAL. 6.5" refers to the rifle's caliber; "1940" refers to the year of manufacture; and the number C2766 is the serial number. This rifle is the only one of its type bearing that serial number.
After review of standard reference works and the markings on the rifle, it was identified by the FBI as a 6.5-millimeter model 91/38 Mannlicher-Carcano rifle.
Experts from the FBI made an independent determination of the caliber by inserting a Mannlicher-Carcano 6.5-millimeter cartridge into the weapon for fit, and by making a sulfur cast of the inside of the weapon's barrel and measuring the cast with a micrometer. From outward appearance, the weapon would appear to be a 7.35-millimeter rifle, but its mechanism had been re barreled with a 6.5-millimeter barrel.
Constable Deputy Sheriff Weitzman, who only saw the rifle at a glance and did not handle it, thought the weapon looked like a 7.65 Mauser bolt-action rifle. 131 (See chapter V, p. 235.)
You would think it would be just a simple mistake...
But instead we have 4 affidavits & 1 Report from 2 men and statements from a 3rd that call the gun a 7.65 Mauser
The documents go on to describe the strap and specific markings on the gun in detail; the last one is dated as late as 11/25. (Weitzman)
There is no signed or sworn affidavit by any police officer involved in the finding of the rifle listed it as a Mannlicher-Carcano?only as a 7.65 Mauser.
Date: November 22, 1963
COUNTY OF DALLAS
SHERIFF'S DEPARTMENT
SUPPLEMENTARY INVESTIGATION REPORT
Mr. Decker:
I was assisting in the search of the 6th floor of the Dallas County Book Depository at Elm St. and Houston St. proceeding from the xxxxxx East side of the building. Officer Weitzman DPD and I were together as we approached the Northwest corner of the building xxxxxx I was the rifle partially hidden behind a row of books with two (2) other boxes of books against the rifle. The rifle appeared to be a 7.65 mm Mauser with a telescope sight on the rifle. Capt. Fritz was called to the scene and also someone from the ID xxxx pictures were taken and Capt Fritz picked up the rifle. I first saw the rifle at 1:22pm date.
E. L. Boone 240 DSO
11/22/63
Seymour Weitzman
Affidavit in Any Fact
At this time Captain Fritz arrived and ordered all of the sixth floor sealed off and searched. I was working with Deputy S. Boone of the Sheriff's Department and helping in the search. We were in the northwest corner of the sixth floor when Deputy Boone and myself spotted the rifle about the same time. The rifle was a 7.65 Mauser bolt action equipped with a 4/18 scope, a thick leather brownish-black sling on it. Seymour Weitzman
Every affidavit notes the Mauser as a 7.65mm - where do they get this number? - shouldn't they be looking for 6.5mm?
(https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4242/35653645475_48cf844a15_b.jpg)
Weitzman & Boone have similar descriptions...
Deputy Sheriff Boone's affidavit
" What appeared to be a 7.65 Mauser with a telescopic site.
The rifle had what appeared to be a brownish, black stock and blue steel, metal parts."
Testimony Seymour Weitzman
Mr. BALL - You also said it was a gun metal color?
Mr. WEITZMAN - Yes.
Mr. BALL - Gray or blue?
Mr. WEITZMAN - Blue metal.
Mr. BALL - And the rear portion of the bolt was visibly worn, is that worn?
Mr. WEITZMAN - That's right.
Mr. BALL - And the wooden portion of the rifle was what color?
Mr. WEITZMAN - It was a brown, or I would say not a mahogany brown but dark oak brown.
Mr. BALL - Rough wood, was it?
Mr. WEITZMAN - Yes, sir; rough wood.
Missing FBI REPORT and /or Transmission
Mr. McCLOY. There was never any doubt in your mind what the rifle was from the minute you saw it?
Mr. DAY. No, sir; It was stamped right on there, 6.5, and when en route to the office with Mr. Odum, the FBI agent who drove me in, he radioed it in, he radioed in what it was to the FBI over the air. and where is this?
So how does the WC resolve this matter?
In the Speculations & Rumors (Chapter 12)
Commission finding.--Weitzman, the original source of the speculation that the rifle was a Mauser, and Deputy Sheriff Eugene Boone found the weapon. Weitzman did not handle the rifle and did not examine it at close range. He had little more than a glimpse of it and thought it was a Mauser, a German bolt-type rifle similar in appearance to the Mannlicher-Carcano. Police laboratory technicians subsequently arrived and correctly identified the weapon as a 6.5 Italian rifle. 31
really...?
Here's what he told the FBI on Saturday...
Nov 23 1963
Weitzman FBI Report
Mr. Weitzman described the rifle was found as a 7.65 caliber Mauser action rifle, loads from a five shot clip is locked on the underside of the receiver forward of the trigger guard.
The metal parts of this rifle were of a gun metal color, gray or blue and the rear portion of the bolt was visibly worn.
The wooden portions of this rifle were a dark brown in color and of rough wood apparently having been used or damaged to a considerable extent.
The rifle was equipped with a four power 18 scope of apparent Japanese manufacture. It's also equipped with a thick brown- black leather bandolier type sling
five shot clip
locked on the underside of trigger guard
dark brown in color and of rough wood
rear portion of the stock visibly worn
damaged to a considerable extent
four power 18 scope Japanese make
bandolier type strap
...and with a little more than a glimpse...he still can call it a 7.65mm
Every affidavit notes the Mauser as a 7.65mm - where do they get this number? - shouldn't they be looking for 6.5mm?
They weren't EXAMINING the rifle......They had spotted a small portion of the rifle BURIED BENEATH BOXES OF BOOKS and merely used the common way of identifying a rifle when they said it looked like a 7.65 mauser. Just as someone might say they saw an old car that looked like a 37 Ford when in reality the car was a 39 Plymouth.... Just a matter of incorrect identification.
It is a fact that the rifle was NOT in plain sight....It had been carefully placed on the floor beneath a pallet of boxes of books and then had more boxes of books stacked over the top of the crevasse . It was NOT hastily tossed aside by anybody.....
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Handwritten dates can be added later
especially if backtracking
Day testified (http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/russ/testimony/day1.htm) that it was typed up just after he brought the rifle back to his office from the TSBD.
Mr. DAY. Yes, sir; this is the record I made of the gun when I took it back office. Now, the gun did not leave my possession.
Mr. BELIN. From the time it was found at the School Book Depository Building?
Mr. DAY. Yes, sir; I took the gun myself and retained possession, took it to the office where I dictated----
Mr. BELIN. Could you just read into the record what you dictated.
Mr. DAY. To my secretary. She wrote on the typewriter: "4 x 18, coated, Ordinance Optics, Inc., Hollywood, California, 010 Japan. OSC inside a cloverleaf design."
Mr. BELIN. What did that have reference to?
Mr. DAY. That was stamped on the scopic sight on top of the gun. On the gun itself, "6.5 caliber C-2766, 1940 made in Italy." That was what was on the gun. I dictated certain other stuff, other information, for her to type for me.
Mr. BELIN. Well, you might just as well dictate the rest there.
Mr. DAY. "When bolt opened one live round was in the barrel. No prints are on the live round. Captain Fritz and Lieutenant Day opened the barrel. Captain Fritz has the live round. Three spent hulls were found under the window. They were picked up by Detective Sims and witnessed by Lieutenant Day and Studebaker. The clip is stamped 'SMI, 9 x 2.'"
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That's a very short statement....wonder why the date and 1940 Made in Italy needed to be written in ? In addition, Day looks to be in a 2nd colored pen. That's a lot of work for a short description.The DPD, in particular Curry, were NOT HAPPY with the FBI. I can post a film if necessary where Curry is telling newsman in the hall that he understands the FBI knew info and didn't share it with DPD. Also that in the past the FBI had always worked with them. He is CLEARLY Po'd with the FBI for about 2 mins.or so. There is a news clip describing 3 gun descriptions...a British gun and the 3 shells as being 303, a MC and a 7.65 Mauser. Lt. Day with a magnifying glass and Fritz pointing out writing on the gun should have had an almost immediate ID.
Day took the gun to the lab about 7:30 that evening for evidence search. (Don't know what he was doing for over 6 hours between the 6th floor finding and that evening). Think around 6:30 he had the gun hoisted for media. There is film/pictures of him holding the gun by the trigger handle (unreal).I think the FBI took over all the evidence/the case (LBJ where he had control) and hence Curry's frustration with the FBI.
Day did not take the rifle back to the lab about 7:30 that evening. He took it back to the lab at about 2 pm that afternoon. He left the rifle at the lab locked up in a box and returned to the TSBD at about 3pm.
(https://i.imgur.com/lGX2Xii.png)
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It is almost as if Michael had just not cited this
Nov 23 1963
Weitzman FBI Report
Mr. Weitzman described the rifle was found as a 7.65 caliber Mauser action rifle, loads from a five shot clip is locked on the underside of the receiver forward of the trigger guard.
The metal parts of this rifle were of a gun metal color, gray or blue and the rear portion of the bolt was visibly worn.
The wooden portions of this rifle were a dark brown in color and of rough wood apparently having been used or damaged to a considerable extent.
The rifle was equipped with a four power 18 scope of apparent Japanese manufacture. It's also equipped with a thick brown- black leather bandolier type sling
five shot clip
locked on the underside of trigger guard
dark brown in color and of rough wood
rear portion of the stock visibly worn
damaged to a considerable extent
four power 18 scope Japanese make
bandolier type strap
Either it was a quick glance or it wasn't Every now and then Aristotole gets to peak his head and say "which way"
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From Rob Caprio
Finally, we have a CIA report dated three days after the assassination identifying the gun as a Mauser. The report is dated November 25, 1963, and it reads as follows:
Quote on
The rifle he [Oswald] used was a Mauser which OSWALD had ordered (this is now known by handwriting examination) from Klein's Mail Order House, Chicago, Illinois. He had the rifle sent to a Post Office Box which Lee OSWALD had rented. In the order for the rifle, Oswald used the name Alex HIDELL.
OSWALD also had in his possession at the time of his arrest (after he also killed a Texas policeman) a U.S. Selective Service Card in the name of Alex HIDELL.(CIA Document No. 1367, declassified spring 1976; cited in Fensterwald 443-44. Henry Hurt, Reasonable Doubt (New York: Henry Holt, 1985) pp. 102-03. Evica 23.)
https://www.maryferrell.org/mffweb/archive/viewer/showDoc.do?docId=79544&relPageId=4
This is just too good So we are to believe the CIA got both of these details wrong Sometimes it pisses me off that everything is a contradiction or a circle to nowhere in regard to this assassination, but on a rare occasion like this, it is almost entertaining
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It is almost as if Michael had just not sighted this
Nov 23 1963
Weitzman FBI Report
Mr. Weitzman described the rifle was found as a 7.65 caliber Mauser action rifle, loads from a five shot clip is locked on the underside of the receiver forward of the trigger guard.
The metal parts of this rifle were of a gun metal color, gray or blue and the rear portion of the bolt was visibly worn.
The wooden portions of this rifle were a dark brown in color and of rough wood apparently having been used or damaged to a considerable extent.
The rifle was equipped with a four power 18 scope of apparent Japanese manufacture. It's also equipped with a thick brown- black leather bandolier type sling
five shot clip
locked on the underside of trigger guard
dark brown in color and of rough wood
rear portion of the stock visibly worn
damaged to a considerable extent
four power 18 scope Japanese make
bandolier type strap
Either it was a quick glance or it wasn't Every now and then Aristotole gets to peak his head and say "which way"
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From Rob Caprio
Finally, we have a CIA report dated three days after the assassination identifying the gun as a Mauser. The report is dated November 25, 1963, and it reads as follows:
Quote on
The rifle he [Oswald] used was a Mauser which OSWALD had ordered (this is now known by handwriting examination) from Klein's Mail Order House, Chicago, Illinois. He had the rifle sent to a Post Office Box which Lee OSWALD had rented. In the order for the rifle, Oswald used the name Alex HIDELL.
OSWALD also had in his possession at the time of his arrest (after he also killed a Texas policeman) a U.S. Selective Service Card in the name of Alex HIDELL.(CIA Document No. 1367, declassified spring 1976; cited in Fensterwald 443-44. Henry Hurt, Reasonable Doubt (New York: Henry Holt, 1985) pp. 102-03. Evica 23.)
https://www.maryferrell.org/mffweb/archive/viewer/showDoc.do?docId=79544&relPageId=4
This is just too good So we are to believe the CIA got both of these details wrong Sometimes it pisses me off that everything is a contradiction or a circle to nowhere in regard to this assassination, but on a rare occasion like this, it is almost entertaining
Are we to believe that the CIA got the make of the rifle right? Why?
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If Rather had rather asked about the specific nature of Weizmann's FBI report, I would have been rather impressed Sorry I just can't resist sometimes, but I hope you get the point
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Are we to believe that the CIA got the make of the rifle right? Why?
Actually the more remarkable point is that they have information regarding the Klein purchase of a Mauser by Oswald imo
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Actually the more remarkable point is that they have information regarding the Klein purchase of a Mauser by Oswald imo
Where is that information and who did they get it from?
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From Rob Caprio
Finally, we have a CIA report dated three days after the assassination identifying the gun as a Mauser. The report is dated November 25, 1963, and it reads as follows:
Quote on
The rifle he [Oswald] used was a Mauser which OSWALD had ordered (this is now known by handwriting examination) from Klein's Mail Order House, Chicago, Illinois. He had the rifle sent to a Post Office Box which Lee OSWALD had rented. In the order for the rifle, Oswald used the name Alex HIDELL.
OSWALD also had in his possession at the time of his arrest (after he also killed a Texas policeman) a U.S. Selective Service Card in the name of Alex HIDELL.(CIA Document No. 1367, declassified spring 1976; cited in Fensterwald 443-44. Henry Hurt, Reasonable Doubt (New York: Henry Holt, 1985) pp. 102-03. Evica 23.)
https://www.maryferrell.org/mffweb/archive/viewer/showDoc.do?docId=79544&relPageId=4
This is just too good So we are to believe the CIA got both of these details wrong Sometimes it pisses me off that everything is a contradiction or a circle to nowhere in regard to this assassination, but on a rare occasion like this, it is almost entertaining
Whoever typed it up had the assassination on September 22! It's interesting that they used a Spanish-language type writer, and that Oswald's stint in the USMC is translated into Spanish. I would suspect that this document originated at the CIA MXC station. My question would then be, was this something to be given to someone in the Mexican government, or was it maybe something that was originally generated by the Mexicans, and translated into English by MXC?
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Where is that information and who did they get it from?
I would like to know that as well Mitch seems to have some information beyond the Mary Ferrell document. Maybe he could share the source?
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I would like to know that as well Mitch seems to have some information beyond the Mary Ferrell document. Maybe he could share the source?
Did Oswald really weigh 165 lbs?
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Actually the more remarkable point is that they have information regarding the Klein purchase of a Mauser by Oswald imo
Matt, What more do you know about the Klein purchase of a Mauser by Oswald?
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So explain why they were still calling it a Mauser later on in a report and an affidavit. Go ahead.
At first they were attempting to cover their axe ( Henry Wade's primarily....) Wade had stuck his ignorant neck out and allowed his alligator mouth to over loaf his polywog butt and told reporters that the rifle was a mauser and they had found Lee Harrrrrrvey Ossssswald's prints on the gun.
Wade was the DA and they were trying to cover for the lying idiot who was framing Lee Oswald........
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I would like to know that as well Mitch seems to have some information beyond the Mary Ferrell document. Maybe he could share the source?
It's in the document itself. In section I, Oswald is presented as a former member of the "Infantria de la Marina." Why add the Spanish translation? In section III, there is a preceding upside down question mark. You won't find it on an English-language typewriter, only a Spanish or Portuguese one, AFAIK. "September 22" is in section IV.
"To date, little else is available here on RUBENSTEIN." Where's "here?" Here seems to be relatively isolated, like a foreign country.
The document's discussion is generally very Mexico-centric.
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Did Oswald really weigh 165 lbs?
I am not sure why you re asking me, but as you must know that I am likely to give the answer yes one of them did
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I am not sure why you re asking me, but as you must know that I am likely to give the answer yes one of them did
Which one?
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Matt, What more do you know about the Klein purchase of a Mauser by Oswald?
sorry Joe no i don't Just the Mary Ferrell link and the document Mitch mentions, but i don't know where that is from
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Which one?
The one born in New Orleans and was taller and heavier
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The one born in New Orleans and was taller and heavier
:D
JohnM
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:D
JohnM
Was it the other way around? Damn it!
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sorry Joe no i don't Just the Mary Ferrell link and the document Mitch mentions, but i don't know where that is from
The doc I mentioned is the one you linked to.
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Which one?
Tim Thanks for not ridiculing my position on the two Oswalds I know you, and many other feel it is ridicule worthy, and I totally get it. I don't have a 100 percent conclusion by any means. but when the question of 5'10 came up I just felt I could not avoid it
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Ah yes the incoherency argument It is a beauty since it absolves you of all necessity to respond to anything Normally I would say you have all the right moves of a finely trained polemicist, but that would imply you stand and fight but that ain't you
I asked you a simple and straightforward question. Why would the conspirators introduce a second rifle into the TSBD if the intent was to frame Oswald for the crime using a MC rifle? Can you answer that or not? If not, doesn't that tell you something about the likelihood of this scenario?
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I asked you a simple and straightforward question. Why would the conspirators introduce a second rifle into the TSBD if the intent was to frame Oswald for the crime using a MC rifle? Can you answer that or not? If not, doesn't that tell you something about the likelihood of this scenario?
Richard, From all I've read and tried to gather... and seen in photos... I have concluded that Oswald was possibly the first scenario that the conspirators hoped would go down... If Oswald, for some odd reason, had to be rushed to the hospital at 12:20pm that fateful day, there were other nefarious persons in the area called in by their "bosses" to pin the assassination on... possibly in other locations...
JFK was going down that day... The only question was which scenario of assassination would play out, A, B, C, or D.
Which means, quite possibly there were several rifles around in the area November 22, 1963, and events were fairly well orchestrated and planned out, and to be altered depending on how events developed...
Chauncey Holt's book, "Self-Portrait of a Scoundrel," seems very credible to me. He was one of the three tramps, found in the boxcar behind Dealey Plaza... and is absolutely convinced that Oswald was framed... that other nefarious individuals were called in to be on site (like himself), and that he heard four or five shots fired in about 8 seconds.
He writes:
As I was vaguely instructed to do, I settled in and cautiously waited ?in a support position? for the activities to begin. I was extremely nervous because my instructions were so imprecise. Had I had an inkling of the enormity of what was planned, which I had been unwittingly drawn into, I would have fled the area like a scalded dog. Kennedy was due at the Trade Center at 12:30 and, if on schedule, would be passing Dealey Plaza around 12:25. I had been told, emphatically that the disturbance would develop at either the Dal-Tex Building or the School Book Depository, but that great care would be taken to see that no one in the motorcade or in the crowd was injured. There were many other individuals....
I, and apparently Harrelson and Montoya as well, had been provided with the location of a boxcar, containing weapons and explosives, which the ATF was ostensibly was interested in. If the police swarmed over the area, I was to hide in that boxcar, which would appear from the outside to be locked. I was assured, in any event, that this boxcar would not be searched. If it were searched, I would simply show my credentials. These instructions, apparently, had been given to Montoya and Harrelson, as well. Since I was an all old hand at planning ?black operations,? I should have known there was more to this plot than I had been told. The plans were too meticulous to have involved a mere attempt to create a disturbance. This has weighed heavy on me, since that day, which now seems like remote antiquity. (Holt, Chauncey. Self-Portrait of a Scoundrel (Kindle Locations 3174-3180). Trine Day. Kindle Edition.)
There quite possibly were more rifles on site than Oswald's MC... IMO...
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I asked you a simple and straightforward question. Why would the conspirators introduce a second rifle into the TSBD if the intent was to frame Oswald for the crime using a MC rifle? Can you answer that or not? If not, doesn't that tell you something about the likelihood of this scenario?
Richard a couple of points First you fail to even acknowledge that questions such as this require a speculative framework that is different from seemingly empirical facts, and that generally empirical, or forensic facts,, take precedence over speculation Second you use this this strategy on a regular basis I get it that there is no obvious reason that this was done. We had this same conversation regarding Oswald's multiple wallets I told you then that conspirators may have provided themselves with multiple contingencies with multiple guns, wallets, Klein's rifle orders, etc So I am not planning on answering your question any further than that Sorry
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Nice attempt at shifting the burden. You claim that no Mauser was found in the TSBD, but the CIA said otherwise and this document was dated three days after the assassination.
For once deal with the evidence and explain how all the evidence saying that the rifle was Mauser was "mistaken."
In the document that you linked to, the CIA said that Lee Harvey Oswald shot President Kennedy and that he also killed a Texas policeman. Let's see you deal with those.
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Tim Thanks for not ridiculing my position on the two Oswalds I know you, and many other feel it is ridicule worthy, and I totally get it. I don't have a 100 percent conclusion by any means. but when the question of 5'10 came up I just felt I could not avoid it
5'10"? Wouldn't that mean a third Oswald? Harold perhaps?
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5'10"? Wouldn't that mean a third Oswald? Harold perhaps?
I assume you just want to make a rhetorical point?
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I assume you just want to make a rhetorical point?
Doesn't the "Harvey and Lee" narrative have Lee as being 5'11" and Harvey as being 5'9"? With that in mind, wouldn't 5'10" mean a third Oswald?
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Fritz , Boone and Weitzman would recant their stories and all would say they had been mistaken all along. Roger Craig examines the rifle up close ( 6 to 8 inches ) and he saw "7.65 Mauser" stamped on the barrel. He further states that Weitzman saw it too and pointed it out . Importantly , it should be pointed out here--that no signed or sworn Affidavit by any police officer involved with the finding of the rifle listed it as a Mannlicher-Carcano--only as a Mauser .
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Fritz , Boone and Weitzman would recant their stories and all would say they had been mistaken all along. Roger Craig examines the rifle up close ( 6 to 8 inches ) and he saw "7.65 Mauser" stamped on the barrel. He further states that Weitzman saw it too and pointed it out . Importantly , it should be pointed out here--that no signed or sworn Affidavit by any police officer involved with the finding of the rifle listed it as a Mannlicher-Carcano--only as a Mauser .
Roger Craig examines the rifle up close ( 6 to 8 inches ) and he saw "7.65 Mauser" stamped on the barrel. He further states that Weitzman saw it too and pointed it out .
It's a shame that Roger Craig was a liar.... And even more unfortunate that he went to his grave without recanting the lies.
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Roger Craig examines the rifle up close ( 6 to 8 inches ) and he saw "7.65 Mauser" stamped on the barrel. He further states that Weitzman saw it too and pointed it out .
It's a shame that Roger Craig was a liar.... And even more unfortunate that he went to his grave without recanting the lies.
Considering what happened to him, why the hell would Craig lie? You have to believe that he was mentally ill before the Big Event otherwise he wouldn't have turned into a lying conspiracy nutjob and killed himself with a .22 caliber rifle shot to the chest.
And you still haven't told us where the "7.65" came from. No one would have known that was the caliber of a Mauser, except maybe the conspirators. And Craig wasn't the only one. Seymour Weitzman swore an affidavit that it was not only a Mauser, but model 7.65. He later recanted, but he was smart to do so, unlike Craig. Weitzman was in the Air Force and his experience with guns was with Thompson machine guns and pistols, not Mausers. So I ask again, where did he and Craig come up with the 7.65, which they 1st claimed to have read off the barrel?
You believe this was a conspiracy, don't you? Do you believe there were any shots taken from the 6th floor? If so, do you believe the unreliable MC was used to take the shots? That's what the Mauser was for. But Keystone cop Fritz botched up the crime scene many times over. Doesn't this sound like a Fritz gaffe to you? "Oops, just put the Mauser back where you found it and get the MC behind those boxes over there. Nothing to see here folks..move along."
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It certainly goes to show that even if/though the rifle was misidentified, nobody seemed to want to own up to the mistake.
Typically, if there was something/anything that pointed away from the official story...it was a mistake/error/inaccuracy/boo boo.
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Considering what happened to him, why the hell would Craig lie? You have to believe that he was mentally ill before the Big Event otherwise he wouldn't have turned into a lying conspiracy nutjob and killed himself with a .22 caliber rifle shot to the chest.
That's beside the point. Craig's "7.65 Mauser" story isn't in his 11/22/63 report, not in his FBI 302 and not in his testimony to the WC. In the 67/68 interview with Penn Jones, he said that the 6th floor rifle was a Carcano, but a Mauser was found on the roof. He didn't mention the Mauser in his '69 testimony in the Shaw trial. There is also no mention of "7.65 Mauser" in his 1971 work "When They Kill a President." The earliest I know for sure that he brought up seeing "Mauser 7.65" on the rifle was the "Two Men in Dallas" video, made in 1975. It took 12 years for him to bring it up, despite having plenty of opportunity to do so.
And, it ought to be noted that neither Mary Ferrell nor Harold Weisberg believed him.
And you still haven't told us where the "7.65" came from. No one would have known that was the caliber of a Mauser, except maybe the conspirators. And Craig wasn't the only one. Seymour Weitzman swore an affidavit that it was not only a Mauser, but model 7.65. He later recanted, but he was smart to do so, unlike Craig. Weitzman was in the Air Force and his experience with guns was with Thompson machine guns and pistols, not Mausers. So I ask again, where did he and Craig come up with the 7.65, which they 1st claimed to have read off the barrel?
In the late 1950's and early 60's, Argentina was unloading a lot of their old model 1891 Mausers. Those were chambered in 7.65. The M1889/1891 Mausers are fairly unique for the brand in that they use a single-stack magazine that extends below the forestock like you see on a Carcano. Later Mausers (ie, 1893 and up) use a two-stack magazine that is completely contained within the stock. Someone who had some experience with the Argentine rifles but not too much else could easily look at a Carcano and assume from the magazine that it was a 7.65.
Weitzman spent something close to a year running a chain names Lamont's. Over the years, I've seen Lamont's described as either a regional department store, or a small chain of sporting goods stores. I don't think anyone has ever nailed down exactly what it was, though it has to be the source of Weitzman's "I was in the sporting goods business" comment in his WC testimony. But he only did it for about a year, and was overseeing the sale of a panopoly of sporting goods beyond guns, so he didn't pick up too much experience from the job.
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Craig's daughter seems very, very angry toward her father, which would seem to taint her perspective on her father's testimony... After reading Craig's story and the many pressures on his family from bad luck, bad health, bad decisions, I would think that much of her anger could be the result of that.
Craig's short book, gives an overview of his life, and his testimony about the events he witnessed November 22, 1963 - http://www.conspiracybomb.com/killapresident.htm
It is insightful reading... and seems to have a "ring" of truth to it... Very interesting....
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What reason was there for Roger Craig to say that the rifle that was found on the 6th floor was a 7.65 Mauser and not a 6.5 Mannlicher Carcano ? Weitzman said it was a 7.65 Mauser also . If it said 7.65 Mauser on the barrel , then it was a Mauser . Chevys don't have Ford emblems on them . This rifle had markings on it and all you had to do was read what was on the rifle . The DPD & Bethesda made so many bad decisions that weekend and that is why it took 26 volumes of the WC to try and convince everyone that LHO was just a lone nut who thought he would kill John F Kennedy with a rifle and kill JD Tippit with a revolver. The crap that was made up about LHO got very deep that weekend . You people who believe the Warren Report , must have drank the Kool-Aid. Good Luck in the future !
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That's a knockout blow James considering it came from MF herself.
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Mitch, You say,
There is also no mention of "7.65 Mauser" in his 1971 work "When They Kill a President."
I just read through Craig's book, When They Kill a President... He does mention a Mauser (below):
Capt. Fritz asked if anyone knew what kind of rifle it
was. Weitzman asked to see it. After a *close* examination (much
longer than Fritz or Day's examination) Weitzman declared that it
was a 7.65 German Mauser. Fritz agreed with him.
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That's beside the point. Craig's "7.65 Mauser" story isn't in his 11/22/63 report, not in his FBI 302 and not in his testimony to the WC. In the 67/68 interview with Penn Jones, he said that the 6th floor rifle was a Carcano, but a Mauser was found on the roof. He didn't mention the Mauser in his '69 testimony in the Shaw trial. There is also no mention of "7.65 Mauser" in his 1971 work "When They Kill a President." The earliest I know for sure that he brought up seeing "Mauser 7.65" on the rifle was the "Two Men in Dallas" video, made in 1975. It took 12 years for him to bring it up, despite having plenty of opportunity to do so.
And, it ought to be noted that neither Mary Ferrell nor Harold Weisberg believed him.
In the late 1950's and early 60's, Argentina was unloading a lot of their old model 1891 Mausers. Those were chambered in 7.65. The M1889/1891 Mausers are fairly unique for the brand in that they use a single-stack magazine that extends below the forestock like you see on a Carcano. Later Mausers (ie, 1893 and up) use a two-stack magazine that is completely contained within the stock. Someone who had some experience with the Argentine rifles but not too much else could easily look at a Carcano and assume from the magazine that it was a 7.65.
Weitzman spent something close to a year running a chain names Lamont's. Over the years, I've seen Lamont's described as either a regional department store, or a small chain of sporting goods stores. I don't think anyone has ever nailed down exactly what it was, though it has to be the source of Weitzman's "I was in the sporting goods business" comment in his WC testimony. But he only did it for about a year, and was overseeing the sale of a panopoly of sporting goods beyond guns, so he didn't pick up too much experience from the job.
And, it ought to be noted that neither Mary Ferrell nor Harold Weisberg believed him.
Mary and Harold were both SERIOUS researchers.....intelligent, with good commonsense. They recognized a liar when he revealed himself.... Neither of them believed J.Edgar Hoover's proclamation that Leee Harrrrrrvey Ossssswald was responsible for the coup d e'tat.
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It is ashame that you cannot show that he lied.
It is ashame that you cannot show that he lied.
Your challenge would be viable and your statement accurate if you had written :...
It is a shame that you cannot show (ME, Rob Caprio) that he lied.
Because that would be 100% accurate .....I cannot show anything to anybody who will not open their eyes...
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The rifle found was said to be a 7.65 Mauser which had 7.65 Mauser stamped on the barrel and the news outlets were told that it was a 7.65 Mauser and was a 7.65 Mauser for almost two days as per Walter Cronkite and other news outlets but then the rifle became a 6.5 Mannlicher Carcano. Who was the first person to say that the rifle found was not a 7.65 Mauser (as was stamped on the barrel) but was said to be a Mannlicher Carcano a couple of days later. Roger Craig would not recant his ability to read 7.65 Mauser on the barrel of the rifle . It took "whoever" almost 2 days to tell us that a Mauser had become a Carcano . Roger Craig was shot at , had his car run off the road, and the engine on his car blew up and he was said to have committed suicide . Weitzman changed his story and went on to have a successful career. The markings on the Mannlicher Carcano were Cal. 6.5 Made in Italy & Terni ( which is the city of the manufacturer ) . 7.65 Mauser and Cal. 6.5 , made in Italy & Terni are not even close as far as markings go. It was a 7.65 Mauser as per Craig and Weitzman . Live with it !
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The rifle found was said to be a 7.65 Mauser which had 7.65 Mauser stamped on the barrel and the news outlets were told that it was a 7.65 Mauser and was a 7.65 Mauser for almost two days as per Walter Cronkite and other news outlets but then the rifle became a 6.5 Mannlicher Carcano. Who was the first person to say that the rifle found was not a 7.65 Mauser (as was stamped on the barrel) but was said to be a Mannlicher Carcano a couple of days later. Roger Craig would not recant his ability to read 7.65 Mauser on the barrel of the rifle . It took "whoever" almost 2 days to tell us that a Mauser had become a Carcano . Roger Craig was shot at , had his car run off the road, and the engine on his car blew up and he was said to have committed suicide . Weitzman changed his story and went on to have a successful career. The markings on the Mannlicher Carcano were Cal. 6.5 Made in Italy & Terni ( which is the city of the manufacturer ) . 7.65 Mauser and Cal. 6.5 , made in Italy & Terni are not even close as far as markings go. It was a 7.65 Mauser as per Craig and Weitzman . Live with it !
All of the films and photos taken that afternoon clearly show that the rifle is a model 91/38 Mannlicher Carcano.
We don't need no stinkin opinions of anybody....
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Here's one...
(https://farm1.staticflickr.com/835/43172334112_863172d8c8_z.jpg)
Michael .....The rifle in the photo is NOT stamped on the barrel....That stamp is on the receiver....
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(http://i959.photobucket.com/albums/ae75/garcra/craigandjonespage7.jpg)
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(http://i959.photobucket.com/albums/ae75/garcra/craigandjonespage7.jpg)
Well, here we go... there is more testimony about the Mauser... Is it credible? Sounds credible...
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Gary, Maybe I missed something here... Who answers the last question in that article (I found out, Penn Jones)? And what do we know about Captain Glen King's testimony....?
And the Mauser on the roof story... a security guard dropped it?
That sounds about as convincing as, "the dog ate my homework."
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Thanx Walt..pardon my ignorance...is that nearby?
would I see either one if I was looking at the rifle like this ...
(https://farm2.staticflickr.com/1810/28295356467_9cc38e7c33_b.jpg)
When we see the rifle being pickup in Alyea..is that the 1st time? - really? -how can we be sure?
Weitzman & Boone said they said stayed around for about 2-3 minutes after the rifle is pulled - where are they in the film?
I can't get past 2 good cops going back to the office and writing the 7.65 They're writing reports of the rifle; but are unsure?
- why would they write that - next day?..and then write it again
Thanx Walt..pardon my ignorance...is that nearby?
would I see either one if I was looking at the rifle like this ...
(https://farm2.staticflickr.com/1810/28295356467_9cc38e7c33_b.jpg)
Probably not Michael ....And Roger Craig never got that close to the rifle. If he had he probably would have needed a magnifying glass to read small the stamping on the rifle.
Michael you're a smart guy..... don't handicap yourself by believing something that is so easily shown to be a lie.
Personally... I sincerely wish Roger Craig's words could be taken without question. But alas....that is not the case.
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Mitch, You say,
There is also no mention of "7.65 Mauser" in his 1971 work "When They Kill a President."
I just read through Craig's book, When They Kill a President... He does mention a Mauser (below):
Capt. Fritz asked if anyone knew what kind of rifle it
was. Weitzman asked to see it. After a *close* examination (much
longer than Fritz or Day's examination) Weitzman declared that it
was a 7.65 German Mauser. Fritz agreed with him.
I'm talking about Craig's claim to have actually seen "Mauser" and "7.65" stamped into the barrel of the rifle. I apologize if I didn't state it clearly enough. The "I saw'Mauser 7.65' stamped on the barrel of the rifle" part of his story doesn't appear until the 1973-75 time frame.
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Well, here we go... there is more testimony about the Mauser... Is it credible? Sounds credible...
FP: Did you handle that rifle?
RC: Yes, I did. I couldn't give you its name because I don't know foreign rifles. [...]
This is the same guy who said a few years later that he actually saw "Mauser 7.65" stamped into the barrel of the gun. The two stories are inherently contradictory; both can't be right. Do you not get that?
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Thanx Walt - but my problem is with this
this is NOT little more than a glimpse
Nov 23 1963
Weitzman FBI Report
Mr. Weitzman described the rifle was found as a 7.65 caliber Mauser action rifle, loads from a five shot clip is locked on the underside of the receiver forward of the trigger guard.
The metal parts of this rifle were of a gun metal color, gray or blue and the rear portion of the bolt was visibly worn.
The wooden portions of this rifle were a dark brown in color and of rough wood apparently having been used or damaged to a considerable extent.
The rifle was equipped with a four power 18 scope of apparent Japanese manufacture. It's also equipped with a thick brown- black leather bandolier type sling
five shot clip
locked on the underside of trigger guard
dark brown in color and of rough wood
rear portion of the bold visibly worn
wooden portions damaged to a considerable extent
four power 18 scope Japanese make
brown-black leather bandolier type strap
::) I don't think I could remember all those things on way back; even as a young man
...but if the first affidavit I write is on the 23rd, I'm gonna call over to Day and confirm the caliber
Michael ...This FBI report stinks....They gave Weitzman a Mauser to examine anf then had him describe it as if it was the rifle that was found in the TSBD.
I don't know what the bastroids were up to .....possible preparing for the eventuality that Lee Oswald's agency would come to his defense and they would have to let him go. They may have been preparing a cover story that there was also a Mauser found and they were working on tracing that rifle.
I don' know what the hell was going on ...but I do know they had Weitzman examine and describe a mauser..... But that doesn't mean the rifle that was found well hidden beneath boxes of books was a mauser.
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FP: Did you handle that rifle?
RC: Yes, I did. I couldn't give you its name because I don't know foreign rifles. [...]
This is the same guy who said a few years later that he actually saw "Mauser 7.65" stamped into the barrel of the gun. The two stories are inherently contradictory; both can't be right. Do you not get that?
Yes... they seem to be contradictory...
What do we know about Captain Glen King and his testimony about the Mauser? Maybe it's been noted already and I missed it...
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Michael ...This FBI report stinks....They gave Weitzman a Mauser to examine anf then had him describe it as if it was the rifle that was found in the TSBD.
I don't know what the bastroids were up to .....possible preparing for the eventuality that Lee Oswald's agency would come to his defense and they would have to let him go. They may have been preparing a cover story that there was also a Mauser found and they were working on tracing that rifle.
I don' know what the hell was going on ...but I do know they had Weitzman examine and describe a mauser..... But that doesn't mean the rifle that was found well hidden beneath boxes of books was a mauser.
Walt, Yes... it stinks! And I don't know what was going on either, but there are so many loose ends to this Mauser issue...
Could you explain what you mean by a "cover story"... Is this a suggestion that they might have let Oswald go, but then try to pin the assassination on someone else who used a Mauser?
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I'm talking about Craig's claim to have actually seen "Mauser" and "7.65" stamped into the barrel of the rifle. I apologize if I didn't state it clearly enough. The "I saw'Mauser 7.65' stamped on the barrel of the rifle" part of his story doesn't appear until the 1973-75 time frame.
BTW, this is an excerpt from Ed Tatro's "Roger Craig and 1984:"
Meanwhile my major concern of the Craig allegations continued to be the Mauser stipulation, "A 7.65 Mauser so stamped on the barrel." Craig did not cite this information in his deposition, but of course that affidavit was a brief summary primarily concerned with the station wagon story. No reference to the Mauser is cited in Craig's testimony to Belin, but that transcript can not be trusted anyway considering Belin's unreliable performance married to his selected preference attitude. There is also no reference to the Mauser identification by Craig in the Forgive My Grief series which is difficult to ignore since almost every other allegation leveled by Craig was published by Penn Jones at one point or another.
I checked the Clay Shaw trial newspaper coverage of Craig's testimony, February 15, 1969 in the New Orleans Picayune. Craig was shown a Carcano and he is quoted as saying that the rifle in the courtroom was "similar with one exception - the one in the building had a strap". Craig obviously did not make any Mauser references at the trial or the New Orleans journalists would have jumped on it. Even in Craig's own unpublished manuscript entitled When They Kill A President, Craig was not as precise as he was in his letter to me. Craig's manuscript details the scenario as follows -
"Lt. Day inspected the rifle briefly then handed it to Capt. Fritz, who had a puzzled look on his face. Seymour Weitzman, a deputy constable, was standing beside me at the time. Weitzman was an expert on weapons. Being in the sporting goods business for many years, he was familiar with all domestic and foreign weapons. Capt. Fritz asked if anyone knew what kind of rifle it was. Weitzman asked to see it. After a close examination (much longer than Fritz or Day's examination), Weitzman declared that it was a 7.65 Mauser.. Fritz agreed with him."
Therefore anyone who seriously questions Craig's allegation about a 7.65 Mauser identification is justified. The reader must keep in mind that by 1974 Craig was financially, physically, psychologically , and maritally a far cry from the man who the witnessed the rewriting of history in I963. Another reliable critic informed me after Craig's death that Craig knew the identity of his shotgun assailant of January, 1975 and that the incident was a personal matter. Craig had never informed me of this information and was not being totally honest with me, omission by silence, as it were.
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nor do I claim what-da-hell was going on - but it was something
...would like to see some actual evidence of this though
I believe the FBI report itself is evidence that they were involved in some sort of deception....
Weitzman examined the mauser in minute detail.... For what purpose? Where did that mauser come from and where did it go??
There's no doubt that there was in fact a mauser in the pile of garbage for a brief period, but it definitely was not the rifle that was found where it ha been carefully hidden beneath boxes of books on the sixth floor.
Is it possible that thy were going to present that mauser as the weapon of one of Lee Oswald's accomplices? You may recall that on Friday the authorities were presenting a story that Lee Oswald was the leader of a band of communists under the banner of the Fair Play for Cuba Committee. Roger Craig said that he heard that the mauser had been found on a roof of a building in Dealey Plaza. Unfortunately Craig was one of those individuals who will add made up details to a story so we don't know if Craig really did hear DPD officers talking about finding a mauser on a rooftop.
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I'm talking about Craig's claim to have actually seen "Mauser" and "7.65" stamped into the barrel of the rifle. I apologize if I didn't state it clearly enough. The "I saw'Mauser 7.65' stamped on the barrel of the rifle" part of his story doesn't appear until the 1973-75 time frame.
Let's add the caveat the WC asks him nothing about identifying the rifle
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Has there been any discussion that Caster's Mauser that he bought and brought into the TSBD building on November 20th has anything to do with the mix-up... or that it was intended to be part of a larger plot?
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Check this out:
https://www.jfkassassinationforum.com/index.php/topic,869.msg19206.html#msg19206
Thanks for the link... Good discussion...
I wonder if Caster was really out of town that day of November 22...
I also wonder if the Oswald LN scenario had been foiled by some means, if Caster might have been the back-up "fall guy" - His Mauser actually was on site two days earlier, it was registered under his name, and people saw it in his possession two days earlier, and the initial description of the gun was Mauser... :-\
Then we'd be talking about Caster, and not Oswald... Caster might have been plan "B"
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Let's add the caveat the WC asks him nothing about identifying the rifle
That still leaves his Sheriff's department report and the 11/23 FBI interview. No sign of a rifle in either.
He doesn't seem to mention a rifle until after the start of the Garrison mess. Even then, there's no claim that Craig himself saw it was a Mauser. That was still years away.
See also the Tatro excerpt I posted earlier.
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Thanx Walt - but my problem is with this
this is NOT little more than a glimpse
Nov 23 1963
Weitzman FBI Report
Mr. Weitzman described the rifle was found as a 7.65 caliber Mauser action rifle, loads from a five shot clip is locked on the underside of the receiver forward of the trigger guard.
The metal parts of this rifle were of a gun metal color, gray or blue and the rear portion of the bolt was visibly worn.
The wooden portions of this rifle were a dark brown in color and of rough wood apparently having been used or damaged to a considerable extent.
The rifle was equipped with a four power 18 scope of apparent Japanese manufacture. It's also equipped with a thick brown- black leather bandolier type sling
five shot clip
locked on the underside of trigger guard
dark brown in color and of rough wood
rear portion of the bold visibly worn
wooden portions damaged to a considerable extent
four power 18 scope Japanese make
brown-black leather bandolier type strap
::) I don't think I could remember all those things on way back; even as a young man
...but if the first affidavit I write is on the 23rd, I'm gonna call over to Day and confirm the caliber
Let's break this down.
"loads from a five shot clip is locked on the underside of the receiver forward of the trigger guard. "
This sounds like the single-stack magazine of the Argentine M1891 7.65 Mauser. All subsequent Mausers use a double-stack magazine that doesn't stick out in front of the trigger guard. As I've already mentioned, A lot of these were being imported at the time. Also, the Carcano used a single-stack magazine, which also stuck out in front of the trigger guard. Someone with passing familiarity with the '91 Mauser but not with Carcano's could easily see the magazine housing of a Carcano and mistake it for a Mauser. It's not exactly a subtle feature of either weapon.
"dark brown in color and of rough wood"
Trivially noticeable even at a quick look. And, exactly how many rifles don't have dark brown stocks?
"rear portion of the bol[t] visibly worn"
That is, the bluing/finish given to the metal had worn away. Also trivially noticeable at a quick look.
"wooden portions damaged to a considerable extent"
See "dark brown in color and of rough wood"
"brown-black leather bandolier type strap"
How hard is is to tell if something is leather? And if it's "brown-black," is it brown or black? "Brown-black" doesn't sound too specific.
"four power 18 scope Japanese make"
Now, we're getting somewhere! That's really specific. And there's a reason it is specific.
(https://i.amz.mshcdn.com/RWspLIkBKKjE7MGvNB6IFY1O1aI=/fit-in/1200x9600/http%3A%2F%2Fmashable.com%2Fwp-content%2Fuploads%2F2013%2F11%2FLHO_Rifle_closeup.jpg)
Those white letters stand right out, don't they? I'll bet you saw them, and read them right away. Now, tell me where the stampings identifying the rifle are in the photo. I'll bet you can't. Much of that is due to the scope being in the way, some other due to the ID card in the foreground. The rest is because the stampings don't have the benefit of bright white paint.
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Why couldn't Fritz simply show those who thought the rifle was a Mauser the stamp of Made in Italy 6.5?
I lost track of it but somewhere on this thread, Rob Caprio mentioned a report from a FOIA document that individuals with rifles were seen practicing by DPD a day or two before the 22nd on the grassy knoll It seemed to get bypassed
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Keep in mind, there is NO evidence to support Caster's claim that he took home the Mauser on November 20.
Is there any evidence to support the claim that Caster didn't take home the Mauser on November 20th?
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Why couldn't Fritz simply show those who thought the rifle was a Mauser the stamp of Made in Italy 6.5?
I lost track of it but somewhere on this thread, Rob Caprio mentioned a report from a FOIA document that individuals with rifles were seen practicing by DPD a day or two before the 22nd on the grassy knoll It seemed to get bypassed
I think you mean these:
https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=62262&relPageId=83
https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=57741&relPageId=113
I give Jean Davidson credit for finding those.
One of them puts the incident on Continental, but that's about 1/3 mile north of Elm, assuming that you're talking about Continental and Houston. More likely, it would have been in the industrial area West of 35E, if not in the Trinity riverbottom, either of which would be further away. In those days, a lot of people used the TRB as a makeshift firing range, and several active ranges are still in the TRB.
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Is there any evidence to support the claim that Caster didn't take home the Mauser on November 20th?
Instead of claiming the burden of proof is on Caster and those who contend the story is not problematic lets call it the burden of suspicion lies in the fact it was there
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So, the FBI reported that the Dallas Police sighted on November 20th two unknown men sighting in a rifle near where the president would later be assassinated, firing at two silhouette targets. The police circled and the men disappeared.
I wonder what time they were sighted...
I don't recall, was it mentioned that the Mauser that Warren Caster bought on November 20th had a scope on it...?
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I think you mean these:
https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=62262&relPageId=83
One of them puts the incident on Continental,
Where does this document ,mention Continental or any streets?
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Where does this document ,mention Continental or any streets?
"Continental" is on this one:
https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=57741&relPageId=113
You think both docs aren't referring to the same thing?
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Here is a little more to the story , though not specifically about the target practice issue
http://www.jfklancer.com/RobertJones.html
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Why couldn't Fritz simply show those who thought the rifle was a Mauser the stamp of Made in Italy 6.5?
Not often I answer my own questions, but....
From Rob Caprio
Mr. BALL - Who referred to it as a Mauser that day?
Mr. BOONE - I believe Captain Fritz. He had knelt down there to look at it, and before he removed it, not knowing what it was, he said that is what it looks like. This is when Lieutenant Day, I believe his name is, the ID man was getting ready to photograph it.
We were just discussing it beck and forth. And he said it looks like a 7.65 Mauser.
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(http://i959.photobucket.com/albums/ae75/garcra/craigandjonespage7.jpg)
Do we have any idea the date of this document? And yes Glen King and a dropped rifle on the roof is suspicous
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Do we have any idea the date of this document? And yes Glen King and a dropped rifle on the roof is suspicous
"I was working in New Orleans in December of '67" puts the earliest possible date sometime in 1968.
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Then it appears you are correct with Craig's I D of the Mauser. What a dumbass I have always been a bit suspicious of the guy, and this makes it even harder to contextualize some of his other statements
It does not end the debate about the Mauser in my mind On the other hand, it is not a make or break issue anyway, but it certainly continues to feed the monster of uncertainty that pervades every aspect of law enforcement in this case
For me at least I think the issue has run it's course.
Except there is now the issue of why the FBI, and others. had no interest in the ,military intelligence file on Oswald
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Then it appears you are correct with Craig's I D of the Mauser. What a dumbass I have always been a bit suspicious of the guy, and this makes it even harder to contextualize some of his other statements
It does not end the debate about the Mauser in my mind On the other hand, it is not a make or break issue anyway, but it certainly continues to feed the monster of uncertainty that pervades every aspect of law enforcement in this case
For me at least I think the issue has run it's course.
Except there is now the issue of why the FBI, and others. had no interest in the ,military intelligence file on Oswald
For the first few years after the assassination, Craig stayed with his original gift to the conspiracy theorists: his seeing a man he took to be Oswald running down the grassy slope west of the TSBD and getting into a Nash Rambler station wagon. It was only after he lost his job that his story began to get wilder and wider ranging. Maybe he felt he needed the cash, and he could make himself more sellable if he tarted up his testimony. Maybe he did it as an act of revenge against Sheriff Decker for firing him.
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Then it appears you are correct with Craig's I D of the Mauser. What a dumbass I have always been a bit suspicious of the guy, and this makes it even harder to contextualize some of his other statements
It does not end the debate about the Mauser in my mind On the other hand, it is not a make or break issue anyway, but it certainly continues to feed the monster of uncertainty that pervades every aspect of law enforcement in this case
For me at least I think the issue has run it's course.
Except there is now the issue of why the FBI, and others. had no interest in the ,military intelligence file on Oswald
Matt, If you can't see with your own eyes that the rifle that was found buried beneath boxes of books on the sixth floor is a Model 91/38 Mannlicher Carcano and you continue to entertain the idea that a mauser was actually found, then you've nailed one of your feet to the floor and you are stuck and you won't make any progress.
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Matt, If you can't see with your own eyes that the rifle that was found buried beneath boxes of books on the sixth floor is a Model 91/38 Mannlicher Carcano and you continue to entertain the idea that a mauser was actually found, then you've nailed one of your feet to the floor and you are stuck and you won't make any progress.
Walt I am not quite sure why at this point in the conversation you chose to chastise me or whatever you would like me to call it .I relented on Craig Said it is not a make or break issue and it had probably run its course I did say I didn't think it ended the debate and perhaps that is the problem
I have never seen Day's photographs of the rifle unless it is the film we keep seeing on these threads I would assume Day took still, closeup shots at some point? What would be the most convincing evidence would be close up photos of the rifle in question with the faces of the other law enforcement personnel also in the photo so we could be more certain it was taken when all these people were present Now it would take some floor space since the law enforcement would need to lie prone on their backs forming a kind of human pinwheel so the three or four faces would appear in a circle around the rifle
So yes a bit of absurdity always makes me happy, but it is not aimed at you in any way Walt In fact in some ways it is meant as an allusion to the fact that absolute verfiability has been, and will continue to be, an impossibility
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From the Sims and Boyd report about the gun being found....
https://history-matters.com/archive/jfk/wc/wcvols/wh21/html/WH_Vol21_0268b.htm
I continue to have interest in the accounts that there were guys crawling all around there who these Dallas detectives didn't seem to know.
"A Secret Service agent was there. We didn't know the agents name."
How did they know he was Secret Service?
"An officer from [the ATF] was [also] there."
Everybody but the Mounties was there?
On Sunday Nov 24 [Right after Oswald was killed] Det. R.M. Sims called in from home and asked if he "could be of any help".
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Walt I am not quite sure why at this point in the conversation you chose to chastise me or whatever you would like me to call it .I relented on Craig Said it is not a make or break issue and it had probably run its course I did say I didn't think it ended the debate and perhaps that is the problem
I have never seen Day's photographs of the rifle unless it is the film we keep seeing on these threads I would assume Day took still, closeup shots at some point? What would be the most convincing evidence would be close up photos of the rifle in question with the faces of the other law enforcement personnel also in the photo so we could be more certain it was taken when all these people were present Now it would take some floor space since the law enforcement would need to lie prone on their backs forming a kind of human pinwheel so the three or four faces would appear in a circle around the rifle
So yes a bit of absurdity always makes me happy, but it is not aimed at you in any way Walt In fact in some ways it is meant as an allusion to the fact that absolute verfiability has been, and will continue to be, an impossibility
Matt there are several copies of Tom Alyea's film of DPD Detective John Carl Day examining and carrying the Mannlicher carcano. There's not a shred of doubt that the rifle that was CAREFULLY hidden beneath the boxes of books (not tossed aside by a fleeing killer) was a Mannlicher Carcano. They intended to frame the man that they thought was a communist ( Lee Oswald) and they knew there was a photo that showed him holding a Carcano..... So they sure as hell wouldn't have planted a mauser in the place where he worked.
This is not denying that they did have a Mauser that they were planning to use in some fashion......because they very definitely DID hand Seymour Weitzman a 7.65 Mauser and get him on record as identifying that Mauser....However they never recorded the serial number of that Mauser. I confess that I don't know what Hoover's agents were trying to pull when thay had Weitzman examine that Mauser..... But You should not accept the tale that the rifle found in the TSBD was a mauser... because it was a Mannlicher Carcano.
And I wasn't chastising you..... I merely want you to benefit from what I've learned....
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From the Sims and Boyd report about the gun being found....
https://history-matters.com/archive/jfk/wc/wcvols/wh21/html/WH_Vol21_0268b.htm
I continue to have interest in the accounts that there were guys crawling all around there who these Dallas detectives didn't seem to know.
"A Secret Service agent was there. We didn't know the agents name."
How did they know he was Secret Service?
"An officer from [the ATF] was [also] there."
Everybody but the Mounties was there?
On Sunday Nov 24 [Right after Oswald was killed] Det. R.M. Sims called in from home and asked if he "could be of any help".
Yet poor Officer Croy. Nobody wanted him to help with anything
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Matt there are several copies of Tom Alyea's film of DPD Detective John Carl Day examining and carrying the Mannlicher carcano. There's not a shred of doubt that the rifle that was CAREFULLY hidden beneath the boxes of books (not tossed aside by a fleeing killer) was a Mannlicher Carcano. They intended to frame the man that they thought was a communist ( Lee Oswald) and they knew there was a photo that showed him holding a Carcano..... So they sure as hell wouldn't have planted a mauser in the place where he worked.
This is not denying that they did have a Mauser that they were planning to use in some fashion......because they very definitely DID hand Seymour Weitzman a 7.65 Mauser and get him on record as identifying that Mauser....However they never recorded the serial number of that Mauser. I confess that I don't know what Hoover's agents were trying to pull when thay had Weitzman examine that Mauser..... But You should not accept the tale that the rifle found in the TSBD was a mauser... because it was a Mannlicher Carcano.
And I wasn't chastising you..... I merely want you to benefit from what I've learned....
I'm fine with an MC instead of a Mauser being found carefully hidden in the TSBD among the boxes...
I'm not fine with them (DPD, FBI, who else?) framing Oswald...
I'm not fine with "Hoover's agents trying to pull" something with the Mauser...
What was this something they were trying to pull?
Maybe they threw the Mauser into the mix because they initially were not sure the story of Oswald as a lone nut was going to "stick."
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Matt there are several copies of Tom Alyea's film of DPD Detective John Carl Day examining and carrying the Mannlicher carcano. There's not a shred of doubt that the rifle that was CAREFULLY hidden beneath the boxes of books (not tossed aside by a fleeing killer) was a Mannlicher Carcano. They intended to frame the man that they thought was a communist ( Lee Oswald) and they knew there was a photo that showed him holding a Carcano..... So they sure as hell wouldn't have planted a mauser in the place where he worked.
This is not denying that they did have a Mauser that they were planning to use in some fashion......because they very definitely DID hand Seymour Weitzman a 7.65 Mauser and get him on record as identifying that Mauser....However they never recorded the serial number of that Mauser. I confess that I don't know what Hoover's agents were trying to pull when thay had Weitzman examine that Mauser..... But You should not accept the tale that the rifle found in the TSBD was a mauser... because it was a Mannlicher Carcano.
And I wasn't chastising you..... I merely want you to benefit from what I've learned....
Very Good Walt Indeed I appreciate the efforts you have taken to explain things to me and have learned a lot I will agree the best explanation was they were mistaken and it was an MC all the time. But they seem to make such a circus out of everything one just wonders about some kind of deception at every turn
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This is pedantic nonsense. Here is a simple question. Why would the conspirators link Oswald to an MC rifle but leave a Mauser at the TSBD? If you don't believe any shots were fired from the TSBD, why leave two guns there? If you think JFK was assassinated with the Mauser, why not link Oswald to that rifle instead of the MC rifle and save themselves the obvious risk and trouble of having to retrieve a second rifle from the authorities? The Mauser issue is completely ridiculous. Second only to the endless thread about the bag. A misstatement was made because the MC rifle looks similar. It is then repeated by others. Eventually it is corrected. End of story.
Wow, first I have never said that Oswald was the lone shooter on the 6th floor (not sure if he shot at all ) but was the designated patsy in this thing. There is also testimony of seeing someone at the WEST end of the 6th floor pacing back & forth (described as a Negro) but could have been a dark complected man (Loy Factor?)..there was no partition on the 6th floor so one would have seen the other. I believe that the gun being a MC or a Mauser or British (in 3 minutes below all are reported) is very much a secondary issue. It was reported that the Mauser was found on the "staircase of the 5th floor". I realize that even with a magnifying glass, identification could be a challenge but hopefully the crackerjack DPD could tell a staircase from a row of boxes. All it takes is anyone or any involvement of any kind (financier, radio etc,etc) to be a conspiracy.We know LHO received monthly checks of $200 from the CIA. There are bullets all over Dealey Plaza and not just 2. So, if there was one to the windshield, chrome, manhole cover, in the grass,etc that is ONE bullet too many.(And there was). The clip below starts out with 3 IDs of the gun...the first being a 6.5 MM 30/30, then a Mauser 7.65 and even a British.My question WHY THE CONFUSION OF THE GUN'S ID ? The best method would be to LOOK with your own eyes...a magnifying glass is a big bonus.
Later in this thread someone posts a written report that the gun was taken to the lab and examined way before 7 p.m.(Between 12:45 to 1:15 I believe) In the clip below, Lt. Day himself (in addition to handling the gun in the trigger area-GREAT chain of custody & non contamination of evidence BTW) says he started examining for finger prints at 6:30-7 p.m. As he holds the gun aloft the clock behind him says 6:15 p.m.Says he FOUND NO EVIDENCE of Oswald "recent" palm print on the gun...only an older one. No worry though, 2 FBI/CIA guys went to the Funeral home and asked to be alone with Oswald. When they left Mr. Groody I believe said there were ink that had to be removed from the hands.
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Wow, first I have never said that Oswald was the lone shooter on the 6th floor (not sure if he shot at all ) but was the designated patsy in this thing. There is also testimony of seeing someone at the WEST end of the 6th floor pacing back & forth (described as a Negro) but could have been a dark complected man (Loy Factor?)..there was no partition on the 6th floor so one would have seen the other. I believe that the gun being a MC or a Mauser or British (in 3 minutes below all are reported) is very much a secondary issue. It was reported that the Mauser was found on the "staircase of the 5th floor". I realize that even with a magnifying glass, identification could be a challenge but hopefully the crackerjack DPD could tell a staircase from a row of boxes. All it takes is anyone or any involvement of any kind (financier, radio etc,etc) to be a conspiracy.We know LHO received monthly checks of $200 from the CIA. There are bullets all over Dealey Plaza and not just 2. So, if there was one to the windshield, chrome, manhole cover, in the grass,etc that is ONE bullet too many.(And there was). The clip below starts out with 3 IDs of the gun...the first being a 6.5 MM 30/30, then a Mauser 7.65 and even a British.My question WHY THE CONFUSION OF THE GUN'S ID ? The best method would be to LOOK with your own eyes...a magnifying glass is a big bonus.
Later in this thread someone posts a written report that the gun was taken to the lab and examined way before 7 p.m.(Between 12:45 to 1:15 I believe) In the clip below, Lt. Day himself (in addition to handling the gun in the trigger area-GREAT chain of custody & non contamination of evidence BTW) says he started examining for finger prints at 6:30-7 p.m. As he holds the gun aloft the clock behind him says 6:15 p.m.Says he FOUND NO EVIDENCE of Oswald "recent" palm print on the gun...only an older one. No worry though, 2 FBI/CIA guys went to the Funeral home and asked to be alone with Oswald. When they left Mr. Groody I believe said there were ink that had to be removed from the hands.
Lt. Day himself (in addition to handling the gun in the trigger area-GREAT chain of custody & non contamination of evidence BTW) says he started examining for finger prints at 6:30-7 p.m.
Just for the record.... ( I'm not disputing that the rifle that was planted by hiding it carefully beneath boxes of books was a Mannlicher Carcano. ) Lt Day was one of the biggest liars of the case.....
You can see with your own eyes ( Tom Alyea film) that Lt Day examined the rifle for finger prints in the TSBD at about 1:45 pm that afternoon.
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Stop falling for the LNers game. The Mauser issue has a lot of supporting evidence. It does NOT need or rely on Roger Craig.
FWIW, I have seen no evidence showing what Craig said to be a lie.
Rob I am not sure if I have expressed to you my take about the significance of my personal conclusions, or even the nature of conclusions in general There is some term like firmly researched opinions loosely held For instance I am not sure I am convinced the gun found by Boone is what we are seeing in the film Nor am I convinced there is only one rifle under consideration But given certain caveats , such as, agreeing that Fritz, Weitzman and Boone are all looking at the rifle found in the north end near the stairway, and I have to choose Mauser or Carcano I guess I am going to MC for me at leat that is really a pretty poor measure of assessing my overall impressions of the circumstances and questions that arise in regard to the question
Certainly I can be accused of being wishy washy but conclusions are overrated imo,
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Interesting Mr. Caster's story is nowhere to be found in the narrative.
it is only referenced (without name - um, I mean buried) in these 2 pages of the WCR.
Page 601
Fritz Interrogation Report
"...I asked if he had owned a rifle, he said he had not. He said that he had seen one at the building a few days ago, and that Mr. Truly and some of the employees were looking at it..."
Page 612
FBI REPORT
Captain FRITZ asked OSWALD if he ever owned a rifle and OSWALD stated that he had observed a MR. Truly, a supervisor at the Texas School Book Depository on November 20, 1963, display a rifle to some individuals in his office on the first floor of the Texas School Book Depository, but denied ever owning a rifle himself. DL 89-43 / Hosty & Bookout
Fritz Interrogation Report
"...I asked if he had owned a rifle, he said he had not. He said that he had seen one at the building a few days ago, and that Mr. Truly and some of the employees were looking at it..."
Hi Micheal.... Don't you feel that there is something wrong with this statement by Fritz??....
Fritz says that he asked lee if he had owned a rifle and Lee allegedly immediately replied that "he had seen one in the building a few days ago".....
I feel that Lee's reply would make sense if he was referring to a specific rifle ......Such as....
I asked if he had owned a this rifle, and he said that he did not, but he had seen one that looked like that rifle in the building a few days ago.
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This is why I believe that Walt is here to mislead. I have told him countless times that I don't think that the Mauser was "hidden beneath boxes", but he just keeps acting like I have.
No other CTer has ever said this from what I have ever seen either, but he just keeps acting like they have.
It is absurd to think that a rifle with "MADE ITALY", "CAL. 6.5", and "1940" could be thought to be a Mauser of 7.65 caliber.
Don't fall for the 🚽💩 that is being claimed.
Rob, Surely you know that Roger Craig was referring specifically to the rifle that Fritz and Day were examining at about 1:30 in the NW corner of the sixth floor...( the one that Boone and Weitzman found hidden beneath the boxes of books) and that's the rifle Craig said was a mauser. You have said many times that you accept Craig's story as the truth...
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I'll repost this post that I made earlier because it really puts the Kibosh on any Mauser stupidity, the Alyea footage was filmed when Oswald's rifle was found, then this footage was whisked away to WFAA studios where it was processed and immediately put to air in other words there was no time for an alleged complicated restaging of C2766's recovery.
An Italian Carcano was filmed on the 6th floor and this footage of an Italian Carcano was broadcast on the afternoon of the 22nd. In the following video from DVP's YT channel @3:25 we see Oswald's Italian Carcano being shown that afternoon on WFAA-TV.
Here's how we know that Oswald's Carcano is the actual rifle found on the 6th floor because C2766 the rifle that Oswald bought from Kleins had a unique random gouge on the the forestock and this random gouge is exactly replicated on the 6th floor Italian Carcano and the Italian Carcano that is seen being held by Lt Day at the DPD and all on the 22nd.
(https://s15.postimg.cc/pyg700iff/Crapasse.jpg)
And if that wasn't enough here's an Italian Carcano being removed from the Depository on the same afternoon.
(https://i.pinimg.com/originals/93/63/08/93630813a749bc6faa2a132bb39f3599.jpg)
JohnM
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HI Walt -- do you mean to imply LHO was shown a Mauser by Fritz ?
from this?.... if so that's a leap
It seems to me that Fritz and the FBI agent Anderson did in fact have a Mauser on Saturday....because Weitzman examined a mauser ( FBI agent wrote a report about that incident and Weitzman said that Fritz came an took the mauser away.)
So based on that FBI report ...Yes, Fritz did have a mauser.......
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On what day did the Mauser turn into a Carcano ? We know it had to be at least a day and a 1/2. Your boys on the 6th floor messed up that day except for Roger Craig . To bad that Wietzman changed his story. If you went against the main story of Oswald as the lone nut assassin then the chances of you getting to breathe a little longer were null and void. Now tell me again why JD Tippit stopped at Oswalds rooming house and honked the horn ? What would Ruby have told the WC if they had taken him back to Washington DC. I wonder if it would have been some of the same words that Ruby told Dorothy Kilgallen right before she was found dead and of course Dorothy's best friend was found dead just a few days later. What a coincidence ! What are the chances ? It was a Mauser ! Get over it .
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sorry walt without any actual evidence of above --and I see none
I just can't go there
Have you seen the FBI report? I believe the agents name was Anderson.... and he quotes Weitzman as Weitzman describes a 7.65 mauser. Now what the hell was the idea behind handing Weitzman a mauser and then recording Weitzman's description of that mauser?
That FBI report has been posted on this forum.....
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That report was about events on November 22. Only you have made it about November 23. More distortion.
Rob, Why don't you take a trip to Hell..... And come back with documentation that PROVES ( absolutely PROVES) that Weitzman examined a mauser on November 22, 1963, in the presence of the FBI agent.
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actually it is agent Sayers
and Weitzman is describing [in detail] the 7.65 rifle found in TSBD 11/22
(https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4544/26540490129_c6cf93f197_b.jpg)
Unless the reader follows the narrative closely, it can seem as though Weitzman held and described the rifle to FBI agent Sayers on 11/23... But no, this report was made the next day (11/23), about events that happened mostly on the sixth floor the previous day (11/22).
Weitzman observed the rifle on 11/22, according to the FBI report, and he described it as a Mauser 7.65 on 11/23....
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Maybe this beating a dead horse, but occasionally it might be nice to see what facts we agree on In regard to the Curry holding a rifle over his head to the press and the film shot of Fritz handling a weapon seems to be unarguably the MC That does not automatically lead to the notion that a second rifle was there and was the source of the confusion That option seems unlikely unless virtually everyone involved was in on a plan to create two different story-lines available to them.
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Unless the reader follows the narrative closely, it can seem as though Weitzman held and described the rifle to FBI agent Sayers on 11/23... But no, this report was made the next day (11/23), about events that happened mostly on the sixth floor the previous day (11/22).
Weitzman observed the rifle on 11/22, according to the FBI report, and he described it as a Mauser 7.65 on 11/23....
Thank you for posting the FBI report.... It is dated 11/23/63. Here's a question for you...Do you have more faith in the FBI report or your own God given eyes?
There are dozens of photos that show Lt Day with the MANNLICHER CARCANO at thje TSBD that afternoon.
Weitzman said that he left the TSBD shortly after the rifle ( a model 91/38 Mannlicher carcano ) was picked up by Detective Day. So WHEN on November 22 would he have examined a mauser in the TSBD????
PS..... Rob jumped in and started arguing .....Please let him try to defend his statements......
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You are the one that has uttered one false claim after another. You are distorting the evidence in an effort to hide what it really shows. Your feeble attempts are NOT helping the WC's claim.
Your feeble attempts are NOT helping the WC's claim.
But Robbie.....Isn't it your belief that I'm a WC supporter, and a LNer ??
Weitzman could NOT have examined a mauser in the TSBD that afternoon..... He left the building shortly after Dectective Day picked up the Mannlicber Carcano.... So he could NOT have examined a mauser on November 22nd. But I'm sure that he DID in fact examine a mauser just as described in that FBI report.
Rob it's a pity that you allow your bias to blind you to facts .....
The authorities were up to some nefarious scheme when they had Weitzman examine a mauser....
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I already have. *You* are the one that has NEVER supplied any evidence for your outrageous claims that SUPPORT the WC's claims.
Rob, Weitzman did not examine a mauser that afternoon.....But he did examine a mauser which he describe in detail for the FBI agent.
The question is:....Where did that mauser come from?? And what was the idea of having Weitzman examine it??
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11/22 Vince Drain arrives at DPD about 2:30p from Love Field- --Day is back at TSBD
...and so what time does the FBI take over the evidence at DPD? 3p Fri?
anybody know?
(http://i959.photobucket.com/albums/ae75/garcra/fbi20takes20evidence.jpg)
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(http://i959.photobucket.com/albums/ae75/garcra/fbi20takes20evidence.jpg)
This evidence note which was hastily scribbled by Detective Day in the TSBD shows that Detective J.C. Day knew the rifle's caliber was 6.5mm.... He lists the caliber of a rifle with the serial number C 2766, and TWO spent shells and the shlls are stamped 6.5mm.
(http://i959.photobucket.com/albums/ae75/garcra/fbi20takes20evidence.jpg)
The point is:...He knew without a shred of doubt that the rifle was NOT a 7.65 caliber mauser.
This note was scribbled at 2:15, which was before Day left the TSBD ... Seymour Weitzman left the TSBD about 1/2 hour prior to Day leaving the TSBD with the 6.5mm Mannlicher Carcano. There's no way that Weitzman or Craig could have seen a 7.65 mauser being examined by Day and Fritz. Tom Alyea filmed the rifle being picked up and examined by Detective Day....What more proof so you need that Roger Craig was a liar?
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All it shows is that he knew the official prop gun was supposed to be a 6.5 Carcano. It is ironic that you take this hand scribbled sheet as gospel, but ignore and deny actual reports and affidavits saying that a Mauser was found.
Is it significant that this report shows a LEVER ACTION rifle and also, only TWO spent shells...
What do these discrepancies mean??
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All it shows is that he knew the official prop gun was supposed to be a 6.5 Carcano. It is ironic that you take this hand scribbled sheet as gospel, but ignore and deny actual reports and affidavits saying that a Mauser was found.
Robbie Dear,....Please open your eyes and LOOK at the Tom Alyea film and the photos of Detective Day carrying a MANNLICHER CARCANO.... That's NOT a mauser, Robbie.....
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Is it significant that this report shows a LEVER ACTION rifle and also, only TWO spent shells...
What do these discrepancies mean??
Is it significant that this report shows a LEVER ACTION rifle .....
I believe that it means that Detective Day was an ignoramus who was a "good ol boy" who got his job by being a "Good Ol Boy" (Possibly KKK).....but he didn't know a lever action from a bolt action.....He thought the bolt handle was a lever...
Two spent shells were all that were planted....and that what was found. Then they realized that they couldn't pin the murder on Lee Oswald alone if there were only two spent shells found because there were more than two shot fired. Thus they added the third shell later....
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Then simply cite your evidence for your claim that Weitzman did not view a Mauser until 11/23/63. The FBI report says differently.
What I don't get is that you claim to believe in a conspiracy, but then you refuse to accept that more than one rifle could have been discovered in the TSBD. That makes no sense like many other things that you say.
you refuse to accept that more than one rifle could have been discovered in the TSBD.
No Robbie.....I don't refuse to believe that more than one rifle could have been discovered in the TSBD. What I refuse to believe is Roger Craig's obvious lies. I can see with my own eyes that the rifle in the Tom Alyea film is a model 91/38 Mannlicher Carcano.
It's possible that a Mauser was in fact found in Truly's office and that may be the rifle that Seymour Weitman was asked to examine?? Perhaps the numbskull Fritz picked up the Mauser ( mistaking it for the Carcano) and asked Weitzman to examine that rifle to determine the mke and model of the rifle..... I would remind you that they didn't know what kind of rifle they had that afternoon... and they thought that Weitzman was an expert. So perhaps Fritz asked Weitzman to come to the PD and identify the rifle..... But the numbskull picked up the mausr by mistake and that's th rifl Weitzman examined....
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All it shows is that he knew the official prop gun was supposed to be a 6.5 Carcano. It is ironic that you take this hand scribbled sheet as gospel, but ignore and deny actual reports and affidavits saying that a Mauser was found.
he knew the official prop gun was supposed to be a 6.5 Carcano.
Really??..... Did he write:.... 1- Lever action Mannlicher Carcano rifle c 2766?
If he knew the pro gun was "supposed to be a 6.5 Carcano" why didn't he tell Fritz and the FBI agent Vincent Drain that the rifle was a Carcano?? They didn't know the make of the rifle until Saturday....
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(http://i959.photobucket.com/albums/ae75/garcra/fbi20takes20evidence.jpg)
(http://i959.photobucket.com/albums/ae75/garcra/fbi20takes20evidence.jpg)
Notice the note a the bottom which says that Vince Drain took possession of the evidence. This note had to have been added to the scribbled note of 2:15 pm, after the evidence was turned over to the FBI at midnight.
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Your feeble attempts at trying to assist the WC are not working. I don't come here for your opinion. You NEVER support your claims with any evidence.
Get over it. A Mauser was found in the TSBD on November 22, 1963.
It's possible that a mauser was found in the TSBD that afternoon.....But it was not the rifle that had been carefully hidden beneath boxes of books.... and Roger Craig most certainly did not see Fritz and Day examining a mauser....
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Is it significant that this report shows a LEVER ACTION rifle .....
Two spent shells were all that were planted....and that what was found. Then they realized that they couldn't pin the murder on Lee Oswald alone if there were only two spent shells found because there were more than two shot fired. Thus they added the third shell later....
Wally..I think because they screwed that one up also. You see..three shells were not really necessary for three shots.
Though three shots were officially fired, it could have been be presumed that there were let's say 4 bullets loaded so BANG eject one shell...BANG eject a shell...BANG ...Ahhh job accomplished no need to eject ..no one need know about the brass that wasn't ejected.
The alternative was that the third shell was ejected in anticipation of the final shot but the target had then vanished..but that was not [officially] ever mentioned was it?
Detective Day was an ignoramus who was a "good ole boy" who got his job by being a "Good Ole Boy" but he didn't know a lever action from a bolt action
:D
Who dug that report up?
It must have been in the Dallas Library archives somewhere and it got released- ooops
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According to the original Mentesana film seen by Jim Garrison it was a rifle brought down from the roof and it had no scope on it.
Another look at this film....
Who's the guy in the tan raincoat and hat?
Did Garrison ever find out?
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And from the biography it states " Craig worked for the Purex Corporation before joining the Dallas Police Department in 1959. He was named Man of the Year by the sheriff's office in 1960 for his work in aid in helping to capture an international jewel chief. He had a successful career in the DPD and was promoted four times".
The Spartacus biography is wrong.
He was hired as a Dallas County Deputy Sheriff.
He was never a local city Dallas Police officer
From the Shaw trial....
Q: Mr. Craig, where do you reside?
A: Dallas, Texas.
Q: Were you residing in Dallas, Texas on November 22, '63?
A: Yes, sir, I was.
Q: On that occasion by whom were you employed?
A: Sheriff Bill Decker.
Q: Were you a Sheriff's Deputy on that occasion?
A: Yes, sir, I was.
Q: How long had you been a Sheriff's Deputy on November 22, 1963?
A: Four years.
However...as has been demonstrated completely by now...there was gross collusion between the city cops and the Sheriff's Dept.
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Lastly, Alyea film :
Who thinks this gun at the beginning looks like the scoped Mannlicher-Carcano with sling that is held up later in this same short film ? Of course, it could be some more crackerjack detective work...you know, why hold it by the sling and have a scope when you can just grab the gun with your hand.
Another look----
@ 0:12 & 0:14 looks a bit like a lever action but at 0:17 the barrel is big like a shotgun or is it a silencer? There is no sling apparently & .....who in hell is that guy?
There is that guy 0:24 with the cigarette in his mouth... who is that?
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(http://i959.photobucket.com/albums/ae75/garcra/down%20the%20rabbit%20hole.jpg)
(http://i959.photobucket.com/albums/ae75/garcra/weitzmanfbi.jpg)
(http://i959.photobucket.com/albums/ae75/garcra/weitzmanfbi1.jpg)
(http://i959.photobucket.com/albums/ae75/garcra/weitzmanfbi2.jpg)
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(http://i959.photobucket.com/albums/ae75/garcra/weitzmanfbi4.jpg)
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(http://i959.photobucket.com/albums/ae75/garcra/chickenbones1.jpg)
(http://i959.photobucket.com/albums/ae75/garcra/theSNbag001.jpg)
(http://i959.photobucket.com/albums/ae75/garcra/boone765-1.jpg)
(http://i959.photobucket.com/albums/ae75/garcra/boonebluesteel2.jpg)
(http://i959.photobucket.com/albums/ae75/garcra/weitzman%20hand%20written.gif)
(http://i959.photobucket.com/albums/ae75/garcra/0433-0015.jpg)
(http://i959.photobucket.com/albums/ae75/garcra/MASO_nary-wcdocs-37_0017_0045.jpg)
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It took over 10 officers almost 45 minutes to find it hidden like that photo?
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For the TEN THOUSANDTH time, who said that the Mauser was found buried beneath boxes besides YOU?
Rob, When and when was a mauser found?? Even you should be able to see the photos that show Lt Day was in possession of a Mannlicher Carcano.
There isn't a single photo that shows Day or Fritz in possession of a mauser.
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Thank God for the Zapruder film....
Yep, the Zapruder film shows both Kennedy and Connally reacting simultaneously to Oswald's bullet and the Zapruder film also shows @Z313 all the matter moving forward and away from Oswald in the Sniper's nest!
(https://1.bp.blogspot.com/-pqHV1ZHUal0/WRo7Bc8dH6I/AAAAAAABL0I/3gbqoFJwHNcLEdSUbfxa898LwU5wdhVRACLcB/s1600/Z225-Z226.gif)
(http://i.imgur.com/MPK17hA.jpg)
JohnM
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You wish. There isn't a single piece of supporting evidence for the SBT false claim.
The Warren Commission themselves said that the SBF wasn't necessary to their findings, so why are you so obsessed?
Although it is not necessary to any essential findings of the Commission to determine just which shot hit Governor Connally, there is very persuasive evidence from the experts to indicate that the same bullet which pierced the President's throat also caused Governor Connally's wounds.
JohnM
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The Warren Commission themselves said that the SBF wasn't necessary to their findings, so why are you so obsessed?
Although it is not necessary to any essential findings of the Commission to determine just which shot hit Governor Connally, there is very persuasive evidence from the experts to indicate that the same bullet which pierced the President's throat also caused Governor Connally's wounds.
JohnM
The Warren Commission??.... Do you mean that farce investigation that learned very early that J. Edgar Hoover held all of the aces and he was dealing from a stacked deck.... Surely you're smart enough to spot a white wash and cover up...
On the second thought.... You wouldn't have posted this if you had the ability to reason.
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Your reply shows why it is a waste of time to discuss this issue, really any issue, with you as you either have NO reasoning skills or you are here to mislead others. You refuse to accept the official evidence, but the Alyea film is the Holy Grail to you.
the Alyea film is the Holy Grail to you.
No Rob .....The Alyea film AND all of the other photographers that filmed Lt Day in possession of a Model 91/38 Mannlicher Carcano rifle. My eyes tell me that the rifle was NOT a mauser.... Even though Roger Craig emphatically insisted that the rifle was "Stamped right there on the barrel"... Quote ... "7.65 Mauser" .
Roger Craig was a liar, Rob.....
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I rest my case. If Walt doesn't see a photo of it then it must not exist. Thank God for the Zapruder film or he probably wouldn't accept that JFK was assassinated either.
You mean like the bag? I've read a million times here CTers asking why there isn't a photo of it taken in "situ." As though that is confirmation it wasn't there. I'm glad Rob has set the record straight.
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Wally..I think because they screwed that one up also. You see..three shells were not really necessary for three shots.
Though three shots were officially fired, it could have been be presumed that there were let's say 4 bullets loaded so BANG eject one shell...BANG eject a shell...BANG ...Ahhh job accomplished no need to eject ..no one need know about the brass that wasn't ejected.
The alternative was that the third shell was ejected in anticipation of the final shot but the target had then vanished..but that was not [officially] ever mentioned was it?
Bonnie Ray Williams reported that he had heard TWO shots fired from above his head at the 5th floor.
Go figure.
https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=10406#relPageId=335
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Wally..I think because they screwed that one up also. You see..three shells were not really necessary for three shots.
Though three shots were officially fired, it could have been be presumed that there were let's say 4 bullets loaded so BANG eject one shell...BANG eject a shell...BANG ...Ahhh job accomplished no need to eject ..no one need know about the brass that wasn't ejected.
The alternative was that the third shell was ejected in anticipation of the final shot but the target had then vanished..but that was not [officially] ever mentioned was it?
:D
Who dug that report up?
It must have been in the Dallas Library archives somewhere and it got released- ooops
It is reflex action to eject he spent shell, and chamber a fresh cartridge after each shot....... And the Carcano was prepped to make it appear that two shots had been fired and the live round was in the rifle when it was found.
There definitely were more than three shots fired .....But some were fired from a silencer quipped weapon so most witnesses heard only three shots....
I believe the plot called for Lee Oswald and an accomplice to be framed but the man that had been set up as the accomplice had a rock solid alibi...so they were forced to twist the facts to make it appear that Lee Oswald was a "Lone Nut"
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Have you seen the FBI report? I believe the agents name was Anderson.... and he quotes Weitzman as Weitzman describes a 7.65 mauser. Now what the hell was the idea behind handing Weitzman a mauser and then recording Weitzman's description of that mauser?
That FBI report has been posted on this forum.....
You have totally lost it if that is how you interpret the FBI report. Try reading the totality of the report which puts his "description" in context of events happening on 11.22 (i.e. a rifle is found, Weitzman believes it is a Mauser, Fritz takes possession of the rifle, a round is ejected, he discontinues his search of the 6th floor). Weitzman is relating the events of 11.22. He is "describing" the rifle found on 11.22 - not a rifle being shown to him on 11.23 unless you believe Fritz then took possession of the Mauser, ejected a round, and Weitzman discontinued his search of the 6th floor on 11.23 (exactly like the sequence on 11.22 with the MC rifle). LOL He mistakenly thought the rifle found on 11.22 was a Mauser. He wasn't shown a Mauser the next day and asked to describe it. Wow. Comedy gold.
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You have totally lost it if that is how you interpret the FBI report. Try reading the totality of the report which puts his "description" in context of events happening on 11.22 (i.e. a rifle is found, Weitzman believes it is a Mauser, Fritz takes possession of the rifle, a round is ejected, he discontinues his search of the 6th floor). Weitzman is relating the events of 11.22. He is "describing" the rifle found on 11.22 - not a rifle being shown to him on 11.23 unless you believe Fritz then took possession of the Mauser, ejected a round, and Weitzman discontinued his search of the 6th floor on 11.23 (exactly like the sequence on 11.22 with the MC rifle). LOL He mistakenly thought the rifle found on 11.22 was a Mauser. He wasn't shown a Mauser the next day and asked to describe it. Wow. Comedy gold.
If you'll extract your head, perhaps you too will be able to see with your own eyes that the rifle that Day and Fritz examined at about 1:30 that afternoon was a Model 91/38 Mannlicher Carcano....Weitzman never saw a mauser in the TSBD that afternoon....He left the building shortly after Fritz removed a live round from the Carcano.
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Bonnie Ray Williams reported that he had heard TWO shots fired from above his head at the 5th floor.
Go figure.
https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=10406#relPageId=335
Bonnie Ray Williams reported that he had heard TWO shots fired from above his head
There were no shots fired from the window above Bonnie Ray Williams head.....There MAY ? have been a shot fired from the west end of the sixth floor......
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If you'll extract your head, perhaps you too will be able to see with your own eyes that the rifle that Day and Fritz examined at about 1:30 that afternoon was a Model 91/38 Mannlicher Carcano....Weitzman never saw a mauser in the TSBD that afternoon....He left the building shortly after Fritz removed a live round from the Carcano.
I'm not sure what you are babbling about here. I didn't say that Weitzman saw a Mauser in the TSBD. He saw the MC rifle and thought it was a Mauser. That is clearly what he is describing in the FBI report. What happened on 11.22. He was not shown a Mauser on 11.23 and asked to describe it as you incorrectly interpreted that report. There was no Mauser either in the TSBD or later.
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I'm not sure what you are babbling about here. I didn't say that Weitzman saw a Mauser in the TSBD. He saw the MC rifle and thought it was a Mauser. That is clearly what he is describing in the FBI report. What happened on 11.22. He was not shown a Mauser on 11.23 and asked to describe it as you incorrectly interpreted that report. There was no Mauser either in the TSBD or later.
He saw the MC rifle and thought it was a Mauser. That is clearly what he is describing in the FBI report.
Richie...You're FOS..... Weitzman Is describing a 7.65 mauser in that FBI report.....( Did Weitzman confirm that he actually described the rifle for the FBI agent)
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Yep, the Zapruder film shows both Kennedy and Connally reacting simultaneously to Oswald's bullet
Actually that would be Mytton wishful thinking.
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No Rob .....The Alyea film AND all of the other photographers that filmed Lt Day in possession of a Model 91/38 Mannlicher Carcano rifle.
Like you can tell from the Alyea film that it's a Model 91/38 Mannlicher Carcano. I suppose you can see the serial number too?
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I'll repost this post that I made earlier
Which everybody ignored, waaah!
Here's how we know that Oswald's Carcano
LOL
is the actual rifle found on the 6th floor because C2766 the rifle that Oswald bought from Kleins
LOL
had a unique random gouge on the the forestock and this random gouge is exactly replicated on the 6th floor Italian Carcano and the Italian Carcano that is seen being held by Lt Day at the DPD and all on the 22nd.
"Exactly replicated". Pure unadulterated BS:
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Like you can tell from the Alyea film that it's a Model 91/38 Mannlicher Carcano. I suppose you can see the serial number too?
Like you can tell from the Alyea film that it's a Model 91/38 Mannlicher Carcano.
Of course, I can identify the rifle as a mannlicher Carcano.....Anybody with a one good eye and access to the internet can find hundreds of pictures of a mannlicher carcano and compare the rifle in the Alyea film and the photos of Day carrying the rifle from the building, and see the rifle is a Model 91/38 Mnnlicher Carcano.
I suppose you can see the serial number too?
Well yes, as a matter of fact, I can.....It's c 2766.....
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I'll stick this one in here-why not?
(https://jfkinvestigators.files.wordpress.com/2016/02/beers-2-old-man-potp-2.jpg)
That's Asst DA Alexander [arrow] opening up a car door.
He's on his way to the Tippit scene.
The old guy with the ridiculous coat remains a mystery. It looks like he's got a pipe shaped object underneath it. It also looks like a bullet clip in his left coat pocket.
My 8X10 is real sharp and shows it more clearly.
It was up on the old forum and received lots of views.
People might think he is under arrest but I would say that he is just being escorted away from the area. Roger Craig thought he might have been H L Hunt.
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I'll stick this one in here-why not?
(https://jfkinvestigators.files.wordpress.com/2016/02/beers-2-old-man-potp-2.jpg)
That's Asst DA Alexander [arrow] opening up a car door.
He's on his way to the Tippit scene.
The old guy with the ridiculous coat remains a mystery. It looks like he's got a pipe shaped object underneath it. It also looks like a bullet clip in his left coat pocket.
My 8X10 is real sharp and shows it more clearly.
It was up on the old forum and received lots of views.
People might think he is under arrest but I would say that he is just being escorted away from the area. Roger Craig thought he might have been H L Hunt.
That's Asst DA Alexander [arrow] opening up a car door.
That might be Alexander..... But I believe he's opening the door of the car in which BR Wiiliams and Danny Arce were taken to Police Headquarters..... Alexander was everywhere that afternoon..... But I don't believe he was on the way to the Tippit scene in this photo.
The old guy with the ridiculous coat remains a mystery. It looks like he's got a pipe shaped object underneath it. It also looks like a bullet clip in his left coat pocket.
That weird coat could be concealing a long object..... Judging from the way the jacket hangs on the man it seems to be holding a heavy object.... Whatever is in the pocket it looks to be heavy..... If that's H L Hunt maybe he had a gold bar in that pocket..... ;)
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Duh. Who said that the Mauser was in photographs that we were allowed to see besides you?
OK...So it appears that you now acknowledge that the rifle in the photos is a Mannlicher Carcano.....that's good...But we're no closer to answering the question that is the title of this thread. What happened to the Mauser?
There's no doubt that Weitzman examined a 7.65 Mauser and described it in detail for the FBI agent... FOR WHAT PURPOSE??? WHERE did that Mauser come from?? Weitzman said that Captain Fritz came and reclaimed the Mauser from him. So based on that statement Fritz was in possession of a Mauser. What was the idea of trying to trick Weitzman into thinking that the rifle he'd seen at 1:25 pm in the TSBD was a mauser??
Did it have something to do with the phony in situ photo of the rifle ?? That phony in situ photo seems to show a Mauser down on the floor behind the boxes..... I suspect they used a Mauser to stage the phony photo because the Carcano was in Washington at the time.
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OK...So it appears that you now acknowledge that the rifle in the photos is a Mannlicher Carcano.....that's good...But we're no closer to answering the question that is the title of this thread. What happened to the Mauser?
There's no doubt that Weitzman examined a 7.65 Mauser and described it in detail for the FBI agent... FOR WHAT PURPOSE??? WHERE did that Mauser come from?? Weitzman said that Captain Fritz came and reclaimed the Mauser from him. So based on that statement Fritz was in possession of a Mauser. What was the idea of trying to trick Weitman into thinking that the rifle he's seen was a mauser??
Did it have something to do with the phony in situ photo of the rifle ?? That phony in situ photo seems to show a Mauser down on the floor behind the boxes..... I suspect they used a Mauser to stage the phony photo because the Carcano was in Washington at the time.
Wrong. Good grief. What a tortured interpretation of simple events. Weitzman didn't examine any Mauser on 11.23. Read the FBI report. He is clearly describing the events of 11.22. He believed, erroneously, that the rifle he saw on that date was a Mauser. But as you point out, the films make clear it was a MC rifle. As a result, we know he was mistaken. There was no Mauser at all. Or do you believe the Mauser was discovered on 11.23, that it was given to Fritz, that Fritz ejected a round from it and thereafter Weitzman discontinued the search of the 6th floor? Sound familiar? That is the entire context of the rifle being discussed in the FBI report. That is exactly what happened with the rifle found on 11.22. That is what Weitzman is discussing in the FBI report. Not any rifle he was being shown on 11.23.
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This is akin to discussing a subject with a three-year old. I have explained this to you countless times over the years, but let's do it again so you can ignore this one too.
A Mauser was found. It was NOT buried beneath boxes. It was examined. It was reported on in official evidence. If it was photographed we have not been shown those photographs. It was most likely actually used in the assassination of JFK.
It had to go. Exit stage left Mauser. Enter the prop gun.
The prop gun, CE 139, was buried beneath boxes. We know from the evidence that LHO would NOT have had the time to do this IF he was the assassin, and he wasn't, so this is proof that the gun was staged beforehand. They called in a friendly and cooperative media person, Alyea, to film the "discovery" of the prop gun.
The clip is another piece of proof that the prop gun was staged as it should NOT have been in gun since the last round had been chambered. Someone goofed.
You claim to be a CTer all the while fighting to hide these truths. You fight that a Mauser was found and you fight the clip issue relentlessly. No real CTer would do this.
A Mauser was found. It was NOT buried beneath boxes. It was examined. It was reported on in official evidence. If it was photographed we have not been shown those photographs. It was most likely actually used in the assassination of JFK.
It had to go. Exit stage left Mauser. Enter the prop gun.
A mauser was involved....and Weitzman examined it. No doubt about that..... But what do you mean when you say a mauser was "FOUND".... Where??? and when?? Please present some sold evidence to support your claim.
It was NOT buried beneath boxes.
But you have supported Roger Craig's story that the rifle that Boone discovered where it had been carefully buried beneath boxes of books was a Mauser, that was stamped right there on the barrel ...quote.."7.65 MAUSER"... unquote. Do you now agree that Roger Craig was a liar?
If it was photographed we have not been shown those photographs.
I believe the Mauser was the rifle used to stage the phony in situ photos which purport to show the mannlicher carcano as it was found on the floor near the NW stairwell. They had to replace the original in situ photos because those photos revealed that the rifle (the Mannlicher Carcano) was too far away from the aisle for any "fleeing assassin" to have reached across and hastily deposited the rifle as he fled. (Unless the assassin was the comic book character"Plastic Man" who could stretch his arm out and dump the rifle about five feet back from the aisle.) Since the original in situ photos were damning to the story they were telling, they created the fake photos...but they didn't have the Carcano because the FBI had it in Washington. So they substituted the Mauser that Fritz had in his possession.
The prop gun, CE 139, was buried beneath boxes. We know from the evidence that LHO would NOT have had the time to do this IF he was the assassin, and he wasn't, so this is proof that the gun was staged beforehand. They called in a friendly and cooperative media person, Alyea, to film the "discovery" of the prop gun.
Yes that's correct.....except they didn't call in "a friendly and cooperative media person. Tom Alyea. Alyea just happened to be there, and filmed the event ( the recovery of the carefully hidden Carcano) His film was "edited" and the revealing and incriminating frames removed and fell " on the news room floor "
The clip is another piece of proof that the prop gun was staged as it should NOT have been in gun since the last round had been chambered. Someone goofed.
Exactly right.....The clip was in the rifle but it should have fallen free when the last round (Spent shell) that was fired and ejected. That clip should have been beneath the window if that rifle had been fired from that site. The fact that the clip was in the rifle and i was not "jammed" or "stuck" is solid proof that the rifle was carefully (albeit stupidly) prepped and then carefully hidden by building a cavern of boxes around the rifle. And since the clip obviously nearly fell out of the rifle as Detective Day examined it, we can know that the clip was NOT stuck.
You claim to be a CTer all the while fighting to hide these truths. You fight that a Mauser was found and you fight the clip issue relentlessly. No real CTer would do this.
Your animosity has blinded you....
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Oswald's rifle C2766 was filmed as it was picked up and this footage was broadcast on television just a few hours later.
(https://i.ytimg.com/vi/A1eD6Ac9l_E/hqdefault.jpg)
Oswald's rifle C2766 on the same afternoon was paraded in front of the press.
(https://static.politico.com/dims4/default/c201221/2147483647/resize/1160x%3E/quality/90/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fstatic.politico.com%2F75%2F80%2F6d4b362c4e78954d361b78da333b%2F17802-shenon-gun-ap.jpg)
(https://i0.wp.com/www.newnationalist.net/wp-content/uploads/2017/12/JFK-assassination-weapon.jpg?fit=1200%2C700&ssl=1)
JohnM
\
Remember that Day said that he placed Cellophne tape over the partial finger prints on the magazine / rigger guard of the rifle.... Do you see any cellophane tape on the magazine??
(https://i.ytimg.com/vi/A1eD6Ac9l_E/hqdefault.jpg)
Oswald's rifle C2766 on the same afternoon was paraded in front of the press.
(https://static.politico.com/dims4/default/c201221/2147483647/resize/1160x%3E/quality/90/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fstatic.politico.com%2F75%2F80%2F6d4b362c4e78954d361b78da333b%2F17802-shenon-gun-ap.jpg)
(https://i0.wp.com/www.newnationalist.net/wp-content/uploads/2017/12/JFK-assassination-weapon.jpg?fit=1200%2C700&ssl=1)
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This was all he wrote in the DMN Nov 23
"...A little later police found the weapon, its steel butt plate and muzzle exposed at either end of the stack of textbooks."
its steel butt plate and muzzle exposed at either end of the stack of textbooks."
Biffle was right.....The rifle ( a Mannlicher Carcano) was carefully hidden and even Boone said that he could only see a small portion of the butt of the rifle.... The fake in situ photos ( which were made by substituting a 7.65 Mauser) would lead you to believe that the rifle had been hastily tossed aside and most of the rifle was visible.
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its steel butt plate and muzzle exposed at either end of the stack of textbooks."
Biffle was right.....The rifle ( a Mannlicher Carcano) was carefully hidden and even Boone said that he could only see a small portion of the butt of the rifle.... The fake in situ photos ( which were made by substituting a 7.65 Mauser) would lead you to believe that the rifle had been hastily tossed aside and most of the rifle was visible.
It's been a while but here you go again for what's has to be at least the 30th time you've started with your concocted bullshi*about your carefully hidden rifle. You have been destroyed every time . Nobody come to your aid. None of the Superheroes on here save you when you start this crap. Please continue.
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It's been a while but here you go again for what's has to be at least the 30th time you've started with your concocted bullshi*about your carefully hidden rifle. You have been destroyed every time . Nobody come to your aid. None of the Superheroes on here save you when you start this crap. Please continue.
Thank you for your permission......But there will always be simple minded people who accept BS if the "authorities" present it....and those simple minds will reject anything contradictory to the official tale.....and label the truth "bullshi*"
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I suppose you can see the serial number too?
Well yes, as a matter of fact, I can.....It's c 2766.....
Then you belong in the "John Mytton" school of wishful thinking.
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Weitzman said that Captain Fritz came and reclaimed the Mauser from him.
When did Weitzman say that?
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When did Weitzman say that?
I believe that what it says in the FBI report......
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I believe that what it says in the FBI report......
Where does it say that this happened in Fritz's office?
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Where does it say that this happened in Fritz's office?
Where did I say that it happened in Fritz's office?
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Sorry, I meant Truly's office, or "at the PD" as you said here:
It's possible that a Mauser was in fact found in Truly's office and that may be the rifle that Seymour Weitman was asked to examine?? Perhaps the numbskull Fritz picked up the Mauser ( mistaking it for the Carcano) and asked Weitzman to examine that rifle to determine the mke and model of the rifle..... I would remind you that they didn't know what kind of rifle they had that afternoon... and they thought that Weitzman was an expert. So perhaps Fritz asked Weitzman to come to the PD and identify the rifle..... But the numbskull picked up the mausr by mistake and that's th rifl Weitzman examined....
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Sorry, I meant Truly's office, or "at the PD" as you said here:
I'm merely attempting to find a rational reason that Weitzman examined a Mauser.....
There's not a shred of doubt in my mind that Weitzman was in fact describing a 7.65 Mauser for the FBI agent who filed the report which describes a Mauser in detail. ( Wonder why the serial number on that mauser was omitted??? )
Either someone ( Fritz? who was senile) or the FBI agent procured a Mauser ( from somewhere ??) and thought that it was the rifle that had been recovered from beneath the boxes of books.
I find it very strange that they had Weitzman examining a loaded rifle. Weitzman said that Fritz unloaded a live round from the Mauser when he came and reclaimed the rifle....
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I'm merely attempting to find a rational reason that Weitzman examined a Mauser.....
There's not a shred of doubt in my mind that Weitzman was in fact describing a 7.65 Mauser for the FBI agent who filed the report which describes a Mauser in detail. ( Wonder why the serial number on that mauser was omitted??? )
Either someone ( Fritz? who was senile) or the FBI agent procured a Mauser ( from somewhere ??) and thought that it was the rifle that had been recovered from beneath the boxes of books.
I find it very strange that they had Weitzman examining a loaded rifle. Weitzman said that Fritz unloaded a live round from the Mauser when he came and reclaimed the rifle....
Again, Weitzman didn't "examine" any Mauser on 11.23. He is "describing" the rifle found on 11.22 which he mistakenly thought was a Mauser. I especially like the part in Walt's fantasy where Fritz unloads a live round from the Mauser. Walt can't make the connection even then that this relates to the rifle and events of 11.22. He thinks the exact same events of 11.22 were reoccurring on 11.23 like something out of "Groundhog Day." Very amusing. And this from the guy who thinks Fritz was senile! Comedy gold. Second only to his red circle fantasy.
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Again, Weitzman didn't "examine" any Mauser on 11.23. He is "describing" the rifle found on 11.22 which he mistakenly thought was a Mauser. I especially like the part in Walt's fantasy where Fritz unloads a live round from the Mauser. Walt can't make the connection even then that this relates to the rifle and events of 11.22. He thinks the exact same events of 11.22 were reoccurring on 11.23 like something out of "Groundhog Day." Very amusing. And this from the guy who thinks Fritz was senile! Comedy gold. Second only to his red circle fantasy.
He is "describing" the rifle found on 11.22 which he mistakenly thought was a Mauser.
Oh no, he is definitely NOT describing a Mannlicher Carcano..... Weitzman is definitely describing a 7.65 Mauser....
Why don't you post that FBI report and allow me to embarrass you because of your ignorance....
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He is "describing" the rifle found on 11.22 which he mistakenly thought was a Mauser.
Oh no, he is definitely NOT describing a Mannlicher Carcano..... Weitzman is definitely describing a 7.65 Mauser....
Why don't you post that FBI report and allow me to embarrass you because of your ignorance....
It has already been posted on this thread. Talk about senile.
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Handwritten dates can be added later
especially if backtracking
This note was NOT typed on 11/22 /63....How do I know that?....Because they eren't even aware of the fact that the rifle required a clip to enable the rifle to be loaded. Thy didn't know the rifle required a clip until Saturday....And the typed note describes a clip....
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Description of Rifle [WCR]
The bolt-action, clip-fed rifle found on the sixth floor of the Depository, described more fully in appendix X, is inscribed with various markings, including "MADE ITALY," "CAL. 6.5," "1940" and the number C2766.126 (See Commission Exhibit Nos. 1303, 541(2) and 541 (3), pp. 82-83.)
These markings have been explained as follows: "MADE ITALY" refers to its origin; "CAL. 6.5" refers to the rifle's caliber; "1940" refers to the year of manufacture; and the number C2766 is the serial number. This rifle is the only one of its type bearing that serial number.
After review of standard reference works and the markings on the rifle, it was identified by the FBI as a 6.5-millimeter model 91/38 Mannlicher-Carcano rifle.
Experts from the FBI made an independent determination of the caliber by inserting a Mannlicher-Carcano 6.5-millimeter cartridge into the weapon for fit, and by making a sulfur cast of the inside of the weapon's barrel and measuring the cast with a micrometer. From outward appearance, the weapon would appear to be a 7.35-millimeter rifle, but its mechanism had been re barreled with a 6.5-millimeter barrel.
Constable Deputy Sheriff Weitzman, who only saw the rifle at a glance and did not handle it, thought the weapon looked like a 7.65 Mauser bolt-action rifle. 131 (See chapter V, p. 235.)
You would think it would be just a simple mistake...
But instead we have 3 affidavits & 2 FBI Reports from 2 men and statements from a 3rd that call the gun a 7.65 Mauser
The documents go on to describe the strap and specific markings on the gun in detail; the last one is dated as late as 11/25. (Weitzman)
There is no signed or sworn affidavit by any police officer involved in the finding of the rifle listed it as a Mannlicher-Carcano?only as a 7.65 Mauser.
Date: November 22, 1963
COUNTY OF DALLAS
SHERIFF'S DEPARTMENT
SUPPLEMENTARY INVESTIGATION REPORT
Mr. Decker:
I was assisting in the search of the 6th floor of the Dallas County Book Depository at Elm St. and Houston St. proceeding from the xxxxxx East side of the building. Officer Weitzman DPD and I were together as we approached the Northwest corner of the building xxxxxx I was the rifle partially hidden behind a row of books with two (2) other boxes of books against the rifle. The rifle appeared to be a 7.65 mm Mauser with a telescope sight on the rifle. Capt. Fritz was called to the scene and also someone from the ID xxxx pictures were taken and Capt Fritz picked up the rifle. I first saw the rifle at 1:22pm date.
E. L. Boone 240 DSO
Date: November 23, 1963
Seymour Weitzman
Affidavit in Any Fact
At this time Captain Fritz arrived and ordered all of the sixth floor sealed off and searched. I was working with Deputy S. Boone of the Sheriff's Department and helping in the search. We were in the northwest corner of the sixth floor when Deputy Boone and myself spotted the rifle about the same time. The rifle was a 7.65 Mauser bolt action equipped with a 4/18 scope, a thick leather brownish-black sling on it. Seymour Weitzman
Each document notes the Mauser as a 7.65mm - where are they getting this number fromr? - Do they already know they are looking for 6.5mm?
(https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4242/35653645475_48cf844a15_b.jpg)
Weitzman & Boone have similar descriptions...
Deputy Sheriff Boone's affidavit
" What appeared to be a 7.65 Mauser with a telescopic site.
The rifle had what appeared to be a brownish, black stock and blue steel, metal parts."
Testimony Seymour Weitzman
Mr. BALL - You also said it was a gun metal color?
Mr. WEITZMAN - Yes.
Mr. BALL - Gray or blue?
Mr. WEITZMAN - Blue metal.
Mr. BALL - And the rear portion of the bolt was visibly worn, is that worn?
Mr. WEITZMAN - That's right.
Mr. BALL - And the wooden portion of the rifle was what color?
Mr. WEITZMAN - It was a brown, or I would say not a mahogany brown but dark oak brown.
Mr. BALL - Rough wood, was it?
Mr. WEITZMAN - Yes, sir; rough wood.
Missing FBI REPORT and /or Transmission
Mr. McCLOY. There was never any doubt in your mind what the rifle was from the minute you saw it?
Mr. DAY. No, sir; It was stamped right on there, 6.5, and when en route to the office with Mr. Odum, the FBI agent who drove me in, he radioed it in, he radioed in what it was to the FBI over the air. and where is this? ...SA Bardwell Odum--gotta love that guy!!
So how does the WC resolve this matter?
In the Speculations & Rumors (Chapter 12)
Commission finding.--Weitzman, the original source of the speculation that the rifle was a Mauser, and Deputy Sheriff Eugene Boone found the weapon. Weitzman did not handle the rifle and did not examine it at close range. He had little more than a glimpse of it and thought it was a Mauser, a German bolt-type rifle similar in appearance to the Mannlicher-Carcano. Police laboratory technicians subsequently arrived and correctly identified the weapon as a 6.5 Italian rifle. 31
really...?
Here's what he told the FBI on Saturday...
Nov 23 1963
Weitzman FBI Report
Mr. Weitzman described the rifle was found as a 7.65 caliber Mauser action rifle, loads from a five shot clip is locked on the underside of the receiver forward of the trigger guard.
The metal parts of this rifle were of a gun metal color, gray or blue and the rear portion of the bolt was visibly worn.
The wooden portions of this rifle were a dark brown in color and of rough wood apparently having been used or damaged to a considerable extent.
The rifle was equipped with a four power 18 scope of apparent Japanese manufacture. It's also equipped with a thick brown- black leather bandolier type sling
five shot clip
locked on the underside of trigger guard
dark brown in color and of rough wood
rear portion of the bold visibly worn
wooden portions damaged to a considerable extent
four power 18 scope Japanese make
brown-black leather bandolier type strap
...and with little more than a glimpse...he can still call it a 7.65mm
Many folks who are ignorant about the differences between a Argentine 7.65 Mauser, and the Italian Mannlicher Carcano
( which was found carefully hidden beneath boxes of books, near the NW stairway in the TSBD ) should pay attention to Weitzman's description of the rifle that he described for the FBI report.....
Nov 23 1963
Weitzman FBI Report
Mr. Weitzman described the rifle was found as a 7.65 caliber Mauser action rifle, loads from a five shot clip is locked on the underside of the receiver forward of the trigger guard.
The metal parts of this rifle were of a gun metal color, gray or blue and the rear portion of the bolt was visibly worn.
The wooden portions of this rifle were a dark brown in color and of rough wood apparently having been used or damaged to a considerable extent.
The rifle was equipped with a four power 18 scope of apparent Japanese manufacture. It's also equipped with a thick brown- black leather bandolier type sling
five shot clip
locked on the underside of trigger guard
dark brown in color and of rough wood
rear portion of the bold visibly worn
wooden portions damaged to a considerable extent
four power 18 scope Japanese make
brown-black leather bandolier type strap
Note the date..... November 23, 1963
Mr. Weitzman described the rifle was found as a 7.65 caliber Mauser
Weitzman said the rifle was a 7.65 caliber bolt action, Mauser.
five shot clip
The Carcano uses a SIX cartridge clip
locked on the underside of trigger guard
The six shot carcano clip is loaded from the top....It slides down into the magazine.....
rear portion of the bold visibly worn
The Carcano bolt is NOT visibly worn
wooden portions damaged to a considerable extent
The wooden stock of the Mannlicher Carcano is NOT damaged
four power 18 scope
The scope on the Mannlicher Carcano was not stamped four power, 18
equipped with a thick brown- black leather bandolier type sling
Look at the photos of the Mannlicher carcano....It has a flimsy light duty sling ...black on the finish side, and pink or tan on the raw side ...And it it NOT a bandolier type sling......
Obviously, the rifle being described in the FBI report is a 7.65 Mauser and it is NOT a Mannlicher Carcano.
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It has already been posted on this thread. Talk about senile.
I haven't seen the actual FBI report......
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I'm merely attempting to find a rational reason that Weitzman examined a Mauser.....
Why is that more rational than him examining a Mauser in the TSBD?
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Why is that more rational than him examining a Mauser in the TSBD?
Weitzman wasn't at the TSBD for more than an hour.....he left immediately after Fritz opened the bolt on Mannlicher Carcano as Detective Day held the rifle...... So when would he have had the opportunity to handle a Mauser in the TSBD ?
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Why would this take more than an hour? And when did Weitzman say "immediately"?
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Why would this take more than an hour? And when did Weitzman say "immediately"?
Lt Day didn't even relinquish possession of the Mannlicher Carcano when Captain Fritz wanted to see the rifle. Detective Day had it in his hands at all times before taking it from the TSBD to the evidence locker at DPD headquarters....
And yet you seem to believe that Fritz had the rifle which Seymour Weitzman described in detail as a 7.65 mauser, and Fritz allowed Weitzman to take possession of the rifle.
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Lt Day didn't even relinquish possession of the Mannlicher Carcano when Captain Fritz wanted to see the rifle. Detective Day had it in his hands at all times before taking it from the TSBD to the evidence locker at DPD headquarters....
And yet you seem to believe that Fritz had the rifle which Seymour Weitzman described in detail as a 7.65 mauser, and Fritz allowed Weitzman to take possession of the rifle.
How does Carl Day having a Carcano in his hands tell you anything about when Weitzman saw a Mauser?
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There is evidence that a Mauser was found. There is evidence that a rifle was found on the roof, the fifth floor and the sixth floor. Learn the evidence. I am not here to teach you the evidence.
Roger Craig is not needed. This is a trick employed by the LNers.
There is evidence that a Mauser was found.
There isn't a shred of evidence that a mauser was found in or on the TSBD.....
There is evidence that a rifle was found on the roof, the fifth floor and the sixth floor. Learn the evidence.
So now you're proposing that THREE rifles were found in and on the TSBD that afternoon...... Where do you get these crazy ideas?
Roger Craig is not needed.
Then why do you refer to Craig's tale of seeing "7.65 Mauser stamped right there on the barrel" when the Mannlicher Carcano was being examined by Fritz and Day in the TSBD.?
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How does Carl Day having a Carcano in his hands tell you anything about when Weitzman saw a Mauser?
I donno...You tell me..... It's your idea...Not mine....
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There isn't a shred of evidence that a mauser was found in or on the TSBD.....
Sure there is. Weitzman, Boone, and Craig all said there was.
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I donno...You tell me..... It's your idea...Not mine....
No, you?re the one who came up with the silly ?Weitzman was shown a Mauser later in the police station? idea.
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Sure there is. Weitzman, Boone, and Craig all said there was.
So if someone said they saw a flying saucer above the Lincoln in Dealey Plaza at the time of the coup d e'tat ...then that would be evidence that there was a flying saucer there at the time??
A rational person would dismiss Weitzman. Boone and Craig claim of seeing a Mauser recovered from beneath the boxes of books as mistaken identification......
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So if someone said they saw a flying saucer above the Lincoln in Dealey Plaza at the time of the coup d e'tat ...then that would be evidence that there was a flying saucer there at the time??
Yes -- just not very compelling evidence. If three people said it then it might have more credence. But eyewitness testimony in general is unreliable.
A rational person would dismiss Weitzman. Boone and Craig claim of seeing a Mauser recovered from beneath the boxes of books as mistaken identification......
Stop equating "rational" with your own speculations. You're no better than "Mytton" and "Smith".
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A simple search of Weitzman's WC testimony confirms that he was talking about the rifle found on 11.22 when he referenced the Mauser in the FBI report:
Mr. BALL - I understand that. Now, in your statement to the Federal Bureau of Investigation, you gave a description of the rifle, how it looked.
Mr. WEITZMAN - I said it was a Mauser-type action, didn't I?
Mr. BALL - Mauser bolt action.
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A simple search of Weitzman's WC testimony confirms that he was talking about the rifle found on 11.22 when he referenced the Mauser in the FBI report:
Mr. BALL - I understand that. Now, in your statement to the Federal Bureau of Investigation, you gave a description of the rifle, how it looked.
Mr. WEITZMAN - I said it was a Mauser-type action, didn't I?
Mr. BALL - Mauser bolt action.
Mr "Smith"...You're as phony as Weitzman's response
A simple search of Weitzman's WC testimony confirms that he was talking about the rifle found on 11.22 when he referenced the Mauser in the FBI report:
Mr. WEITZMAN - I said it was a Mauser-type action, didn't I?
Weitzman replied to the question with an evasive answer..... and most intelligent people can see that. Are you sub average in intelligence Mr "Smith" ?
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No, you?re the one who came up with the silly ?Weitzman was shown a Mauser later in the police station? idea.
It should b obvious to any person even casually familiar with guns that Weitzman was NOT describing the 6.5 Mannlicher Carcano that had been planted by burying it beneath boxes of books near the NW stairwell in the TSBD, when he described the 7.65 Argentine Mauser that the FBI agent recorded in his FBI report.
There's no doubt in my mind that Weitzman described a Mauser.... WHY?? Did Fritz present Weitzman with a Mauser and where did that Mauser come from??
Many students are confused by the tale that's been constructed around the frame from the Mentesana film which shows a cop holding a shotgun. Many folks have accepted that the shotgun in the Mentasana film is a rifle that had been found on the roof of a building in Dealey Plaza.
There is a rumor that a mauser was found on a rooftop of a building in Dealey Plaza...... Where did the rumor originate??
Is there any substance to the rumor? And is the mauser that Weitzman described for the FBI agent the Mauser in question??
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Mr "Smith"...You're as phony as Weitzman's response
A simple search of Weitzman's WC testimony confirms that he was talking about the rifle found on 11.22 when he referenced the Mauser in the FBI report:
Mr. WEITZMAN - I said it was a Mauser-type action, didn't I?
Weitzman replied to the question with an evasive answer..... and most intelligent people can see that. Are you sub average in intelligence Mr "Smith" ?
What a kook. Read the FBI report and WC testimony. Weitzman is clearly referring to the events of 11.22. He was not shown any rifle on 11.23. If there were any doubt of that, then his WC testimony confirms that the rifle he was referring too in the FBI report is the one discovered on 11.22. He says nothing about being shown a Mauser on 11.23. How you come to that conclusion is mystifying. The fact that you would repeat it in light of the WC testimony is astounding. Try reading this and ask yourself if Weitzman is referring to the rifle discovered on 11.22 or one he is being shown on 11.23:
Mr. BALL - You also said at the time the rifle was found at 1:22 p.m., is that correct?
Mr. WEITZMAN - I believe that is correct. I wouldn't commit myself there because I am not sure; I'm not positive that was it.
Mr. BALL - In this statement, it says Captain Fritz took charge of the rifle and ejected one live round from the chamber.
Mr. WEITZMAN - Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL - He did eject one live round?
Mr. WEITZMAN - Yes, sir; he did eject one live round, one live round, yes, sir. You said remove anything from the rifle; I was not considering that a shell.
Mr. BALL - I understand that. Now, in your statement to the Federal Bureau of Investigation, you gave a description of the rifle, how it looked.
Mr. WEITZMAN - I said it was a Mauser-type action, didn't I?
Mr. BALL - Mauser bolt action.
Mr. WEITZMAN - And at the time I looked at it, I believe I said it was 2.5 scope on it and I believe I said it was a Weaver but it wasn't; it turned out to be anything but a Weaver, but that was at a glance.
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Mr. WEITZMAN - And at the time I looked at it, I believe I said it was 2.5 scope on it and I believe I said it was a Weaver but it wasn't; it turned out to be anything but a Weaver, but that was at a glance.
But there's nothing about a 2.5 Weaver in that report...Weitzman correctly identified the scope.
No Tom, that's not correct... Weitzman said that the scope on the FIVE SHOT, 7.65 Mauser that loaded from the bottom, which had a THICK BROWNISH BLACK leather BANDOLIER TYPE sling was a 4 by 18 scope of "apparent Japanese manufacture" while the scope on the Mannlicher Carcano was clearly stamped "Made in Japan"
Date: November 23, 1963
Seymour Weitzman
Affidavit in Any Fact
At this time Captain Fritz arrived and ordered all of the sixth floor sealed off and searched. I was working with Deputy S. Boone of the Sheriff's Department and helping in the search. We were in the northwest corner of the sixth floor when Deputy Boone and myself spotted the rifle about the same time. The rifle was a 7.65 Mauser bolt action equipped with a 4/18 scope, a thick leather brownish-black sling on it. Seymour Weitzman
No Tom, that's not correct... It's not accurate....Weitzman said that the scope on the FIVE SHOT, 7.65 Mauser that loaded from the bottom, which had a THICK BROWNISH BLACK leather BANDOLIER TYPE sling.... was a 4 by 18 scope of "apparent Japanese manufacture" while the scope on the Mannlicher Carcano was clearly stamped 4 X 18 coated ordnance optics "Made in Japan"
Date: November 23, 1963
Seymour Weitzman
Affidavit in Any Fact
At this time Captain Fritz arrived and ordered all of the sixth floor sealed off and searched. I was working with Deputy S. Boone of the Sheriff's Department and helping in the search. We were in the northwest corner of the sixth floor when Deputy Boone and myself spotted the rifle about the same time. The rifle was a 7.65 Mauser bolt action equipped with a 4/18 scope, a thick leather brownish-black sling on it. Seymour Weitzman
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I'll strike "correctly", but his back peddling on the scope makes no sense either way.
Mr. WEITZMAN - And at the time I looked at it, I believe I said it was 2.5 scope on it and I believe I said it was a Weaver but it wasn't; it turned out to be anything but a Weaver, but that was at a glance.
If looking at it "at a glance" happened on the 6th floor why does the FBI report say Japanese made if Weitzman thought it was a Weaver?
If Weitzman, as you state, looked at a Mauser shown to him by the FBI it wasn't "at a glance" and consequently "apparent Japanese manufacture" makes no sense as "Made in Japan" was printed on the scope.
Nobody quotes Weitzman saying "2.5 Weaver", not even the FBI report, so my conclusion is that Weitzman perjured himself to look like a complete fool as "apparent Japanese manufacture" is not questioned by BALL since it was Japanese made.
Now why would he do that?
It's obvious that Ball wasn't interested in delving too deeply into Weitzman's story.... Ball knew that Weitzman's description of a mauser needed to be "swept under the rug".
Mr. WEITZMAN - And at the time I looked at it, I believe I said it was 2.5 scope on it and I believe I said it was a Weaver but it wasn't; it turned out to be anything but a Weaver, but that was at a glance.
I believe in he above statement Weitzman was referring to the scope on the Mannlicher Carcano, not the scope on the Mauser. When he briefly caught a glimpse of the scope on the Carcano when it was pulled from beneath the boxes of books he thought the scope was 2.5 Weaver. He may have told the group that the scope was a 2.5 Weaver and thought that his remark had been recorded, and that's what he was telling Ball.
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It's obvious that Ball wasn't interested in delving too deeply into Weitzman's story.... Ball knew that Weitzman's description of a mauser needed to be "swept under the rug".
So that is why he asked him directly about it? LOL. It's painfully clear you have no idea what you are talking about. Weitzman is clearly referring to the discovery of the MC rifle on 11.22 in the FBI report and WC testimony. He says, for example, that rifle was discovered at 1:22, that it was given to Fritz who ejected a live shell from it etc. Do you think the FBI discovered a Mauser at 1:22 on 11.23? Good grief. There was no Mauser. Weitzman made a mistake based upon a "glance" at the MC rifle. It looks like a Mauser. That's what he thought it was. The films show he was wrong. Mystery solved.
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So that is why he asked him directly about it? LOL. It's painfully clear you have no idea what you are talking about. Weitzman is clearly referring to the discovery of the MC rifle on 11.22 in the FBI report and WC testimony. He says, for example, that rifle was discovered at 1:22, that it was given to Fritz who ejected a live shell from it etc. Do you think the FBI discovered a Mauser at 1:22 on 11.23? Good grief. There was no Mauser. Weitzman made a mistake based upon a "glance" at the MC rifle. It looks like a Mauser. That's what he thought it was. The films show he was wrong. Mystery solved.
There was no Mauser. Weitzman made a mistake based upon a "glance" at the MC rifle. It looks like a Mauser. That's what he thought it was. The films show he was wrong.
You're attempting to mix apples and oranges ....(or Carcano and Mauser)
Yes you're right....Weitzman did make a mistake in initially identifying the Mannlicher Carcano as a mauser.... And you're right, all of the films and photos reveal that the rifle found near the NW stairwell was in fact a model 91/38 Mannlicher carcano.
Here's a description of that Italian made Mannlicher Carcano
6.5mm, model 91 /38, Mannlicher type bolt action, Mannlicher carcano, blue steel, undamaged wooden stock, light weight leather sling finished smooth polished black on one side, and unfinished tan on the reverse side. The "sling" has a broad leather patch inserted or attached to the narrow, light weight, leather strap to ease the discomfort of narrow leather strap when carrying the rifle on the shoulder. This carcano is loaded by inserting a six shot clip from the top when the bolt is retracted. It has a 4 X 18 telescopic sight mounted off to the left side of the rifle, and the scope is stamped "4 X18 Coated Ordinance Optic Inc, Hollywood California, Made in Japan.
And here's Weitzman's description of the mauser.....
Nov 23 1963
Weitzman FBI Report
Mr. Weitzman described the rifle was found as a 7.65 caliber Mauser action rifle, loads from a five shot clip is locked on the underside of the receiver forward of the trigger guard.
The metal parts of this rifle were of a gun metal color, gray or blue and the rear portion of the bolt was visibly worn.
The wooden portions of this rifle were a dark brown in color and of rough wood apparently having been used or damaged to a considerable extent.
The rifle was equipped with a four power 18 scope of apparent Japanese manufacture. It's also equipped with a thick brown- black leather bandolier type sling
five shot clip
locked on the underside of trigger guard
dark brown in color and of rough wood
rear portion of the bold visibly worn
wooden portions damaged to a considerable extent
four power 18 scope Japanese make
brown-black leather bandolier type strap
FIVE shot clip loaded from the bottom......
The Carcano has a SIX shot clip which loads from the top
dark brown in color and of rough wood
rear portion of the bold visibly worn
wooden portions damaged to a considerable extent
The bolt of the carcano is NOT visible worn...and the wooden stock is not "damaged to a considerable extent"
Thick brown-black leather bandolier type strap
The "sling" on the Carcano is NOT "Thick brown-black leather" nor is it a bandolier type strap. The "sling" on the carcano is not actually a "sling" it is a carrying strap designed for parade use ...... not combat, as the heavy, thick, brownish black, leather sling on the Mauser.
Clearly there are TWO different rifles being described..... Where did that Mauser come from and what happened to it???
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There was no Mauser. Weitzman made a mistake based upon a "glance" at the MC rifle. It looks like a Mauser. That's what he thought it was. The films show he was wrong.
You're attempting to mix apples and oranges ....(or Carcano and Mauser)
Yes you're right....Weitzman did make a mistake in initially identifying the Mannlicher Carcano as a mauser.... And you're right all of the films and photos reveal that the rifle found near the NW stairwell was in fact a model 91/38 Mannlicher carcano.
Here's a description of that Italian made Mannlicher Carcano
6.5mm, model 91 /38, Mannlicher type bolt action, Mannlicher carcano, blue steel, undamaged wooden stock, light weight leather sling finished smooth polished black on one side, and unfinished tan on the reverse side. The "sling" has a broad leather patch inserted or attached to the narrow, light weight, leather strap to ease the discomfort of narrow leather strap when carrying the rifle on the shoulder. This carcano is loaded by inserting a six shot clip from the top when the bolt is retracted. It has a 4 X 18 telescopic sight mounted off to the left side of the rifle, and the scope is stamped "4 X18 Coated Ordinance Optic Inc, Hollywood California, Made in Japan.
I'm the one mixing apples and oranges when you are conflating questions about the MC rifle discovered on 11.22 with some baseless scenario in which Weitzman is shown a Mauser the next day and asked to describe it? There is only one rifle. He is asked about the rifle discovered on 11.22 and asked to describe that rifle. He gets some details wrong which apparently has led you to erroneously conclude he is being asked to describe another rifle in the FBI interview. Which even you yourself find inexplicable because it is! Even if you believed the conspirators used a Mauser, why would they ask someone about that rifle the next day and show it to them? Aren't they trying to cover up instead of raise red flags? Silly. There is only one rifle here. The one found in the TSBD. That is what Weitzman was asked about. The films confirm it was a MC rifle and not a Mauser. So he got that wrong.
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It's truly amazing what detailed descriptions Weitzman and Boone were able to provide from "just a glance".
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It's truly amazing what detailed descriptions Weitzman and Boone were able to provide from "just a glance".
(http://i959.photobucket.com/albums/ae75/garcra/weitzmanfbi.jpg)
(http://i959.photobucket.com/albums/ae75/garcra/weitzmanfbi1.jpg)
(http://i959.photobucket.com/albums/ae75/garcra/weitzmanfbi2.jpg)
(http://i959.photobucket.com/albums/ae75/garcra/weitzmanfbi3.jpg)
(http://i959.photobucket.com/albums/ae75/garcra/weitzmanfbi4.jpg)
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(http://i959.photobucket.com/albums/ae75/garcra/weitzmanfbi.jpg)
(http://i959.photobucket.com/albums/ae75/garcra/weitzmanfbi1.jpg)
(http://i959.photobucket.com/albums/ae75/garcra/weitzmanfbi2.jpg)
(http://i959.photobucket.com/albums/ae75/garcra/weitzmanfbi3.jpg)
(http://i959.photobucket.com/albums/ae75/garcra/weitzmanfbi4.jpg)
There were many "loose ends" and unanswered questions when LBJ insisted that the pile of garbage known as the Warren Report be released to the public...
On September 10 1964 in an FBI memo, FBI agent Vincent Drain ( one of the conspirators who worked to cover up the truth) wrote in a report...
Mr Weitzman stated that he did not observe this gun close enough o pay any particular attention to the clip of the rifle, He stated that he did not know whether or not the clip was empty after the Live Round of ammunition was ejected from the gun by Captain Will Fritz. He stated that shortly thereafter, Lt J. Carl Day removed the rifle to the Crime Laboratory of the Dallas Police Department......
Here we have Weitzman recorded as telling FBI agent Vince Drain that he didn't observe the CARCANO close enough to see any small detail..... But ten months earlier on November 23, 1963 Weitzman gave a very detailed description of a 7.65 Mauser to FBI agent Sayers......
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HI Walt - I see you are still troubled by the Mauser..I am too
BUT THERE IS NO EVIDENCE SW WAS SHOWN A MAUSER ON 11/23 - NONE
so please consider this...
The Tom Alyea film was done at a later time and the MC rifle we see was staged with the press -
we do not see the things TA & others describes at the time the rifle was found
I think it was Fritz said the press was hounding him to go upstairs and Day said when he went back up press was everywhere
with no one around
A Mauser was first found (it doesn't matter where) and for whatever reason it had to be switched - perhaps the paperwork?
I believe the MC is a CIA gun from New Orleans and the Kleins paperwork was backed into Friday - Saturday
Vince Drain arrives at DPD about 2:30p - the rifle is already there - looks like the note on the inventory checks these items out to VD at 2:30p
BUT once the gun is in the hands of the FBI it comes back as an MC...and the MC is displayed to the public around 6p that evening
Eugene Boone
London Weekend Television Special
?The Trial of Lee Harvey Oswald? (1986)
GERRY SPENCE: So as far as you're concerned at the time; that gun that you saw in the stacks was a Mauser isn't that right?
LT. BOONE:- At that point in time yes, sir.
GERRY SPENCE: And it wasn't until after a certain gun in the possession of the FBI suddenly turned out to be a Mannlicher.
That it changed from being a Mauser to a Mannlicher. Isn't that true?
LT. BOONE: I would say that's an accurate statement yes, sir
Hi Michael.... There are hundreds of photos that confirm that the rifle that was a Mannlicher Carcano, which was found by Deputy Boone who used a powerful flashlight to find it ( it was in a dark cavern of boxes which was only a few feet from a brightly sunlit window)
There's not an iota of doubt in my mind that the rifle that was planted by burying it beneath boxes of books near the NW stairwell was a Model 91/38 Mannlicher Carcano like the Carcano that Lee Oswald was photographed holding. They intended to frame Lee Oswald who had pretended to be a communist and an admirer of Fidel Castro, so they wouldn't have found a Mauser in his place of employment.... unless the conspirators originally had planned to portray some other employee in the TSBD as being an accomplice of LHO and the Mauser could be traced to that employee. (Joe Molina, perhaps )
At this late date I doubt that we will ever know the truth about how that Mauser that Weitzman examined and described entered the backwater of flotsam and evidence that was covered up and destroyed by the authorities.
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..and I'm putting it out there as a possibility
the hundreds of photos you see [are certainly not situ] but are later staged
Micheal....Some of the photos of the Carcano were taken at various places that afternoon and evening by several different photographers. I don't believe anybody could have staged the photos that appeared in the newspapers and on TV that day.
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There are hundreds of photos that confirm that the rifle that was a Mannlicher Carcano,
Hundreds?
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Hundreds?
Well perhaps less than a hundred.....But the number is at least dozens of photos.....many of then taken as the carcano was pulled from beneath the boxes by Lt Day and immediately afterward as he examined the rifle looking for fingerprints.
Then more photos as he carried the carcano from the TSBD and more photos later at the Police Station.
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Well perhaps less than a hundred.....But the number is at least dozens of photos.....many of then taken as the carcano was pulled from beneath the boxes by Lt Day and immediately afterward as he examined the rifle looking for fingerprints.
Then more photos as he carried the carcano from the TSBD and more photos later at the Police Station.
I don't see how police station photos tell you anything about what was found in the TSBD.
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Hundreds?
The guy moonlighted as a wedding photographer...
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Richard, From all I've read and tried to gather... and seen in photos... I have concluded that Oswald was possibly the first scenario that the conspirators hoped would go down... If Oswald, for some odd reason, had to be rushed to the hospital at 12:20pm that fateful day, there were other nefarious persons in the area called in by their "bosses" to pin the assassination on... possibly in other locations...
JFK was going down that day... The only question was which scenario of assassination would play out, A, B, C, or D.
Which means, quite possibly there were several rifles around in the area November 22, 1963, and events were fairly well orchestrated and planned out, and to be altered depending on how events developed...
Chauncey Holt's book, "Self-Portrait of a Scoundrel," seems very credible to me. He was one of the three tramps, found in the boxcar behind Dealey Plaza... and is absolutely convinced that Oswald was framed... that other nefarious individuals were called in to be on site (like himself), and that he heard four or five shots fired in about 8 seconds.
He writes:
As I was vaguely instructed to do, I settled in and cautiously waited ?in a support position? for the activities to begin. I was extremely nervous because my instructions were so imprecise. Had I had an inkling of the enormity of what was planned, which I had been unwittingly drawn into, I would have fled the area like a scalded dog. Kennedy was due at the Trade Center at 12:30 and, if on schedule, would be passing Dealey Plaza around 12:25. I had been told, emphatically that the disturbance would develop at either the Dal-Tex Building or the School Book Depository, but that great care would be taken to see that no one in the motorcade or in the crowd was injured. There were many other individuals....
I, and apparently Harrelson and Montoya as well, had been provided with the location of a boxcar, containing weapons and explosives, which the ATF was ostensibly was interested in. If the police swarmed over the area, I was to hide in that boxcar, which would appear from the outside to be locked. I was assured, in any event, that this boxcar would not be searched. If it were searched, I would simply show my credentials. These instructions, apparently, had been given to Montoya and Harrelson, as well. Since I was an all old hand at planning ?black operations,? I should have known there was more to this plot than I had been told. The plans were too meticulous to have involved a mere attempt to create a disturbance. This has weighed heavy on me, since that day, which now seems like remote antiquity. (Holt, Chauncey. Self-Portrait of a Scoundrel (Kindle Locations 3174-3180). Trine Day. Kindle Edition.)
There quite possibly were more rifles on site than Oswald's MC... IMO...
Self-Portrait of a Scoundrel
https://books.google.com/books?isbn=1937584380 (https://www.google.com/search?tbm=bks&hl=en&q=a+month+or+so+after+the+kennedy+assassination%2C+i+was+at+my+apartment+sherman+oaks&=)
Chauncey Holt - 2013 - Preview - More editions
Incidentally, two of the defendants were represented by ? you guessed it ? Joe Ball and Frank Belcher. ... A month or so after the Kennedy assassination, I was at my apartment at Horace Heidt Estates in Sherman Oaks, California, sharing ...
If even the BS is rife with coincidence, what are the odds of learning anything actually new and reliably verifiable?
http://jfkfacts.org/allen-dulles-first-ceo-of-the-secret-government/#comment-842336
sgt_doom
December 24, 2015 at 7:12 pm
Seriously no offense intended, Roy, but you are falling for the endless misdirection put out there ? first those so-called tramps Harrelson, Holt, etc., next they really are tramps, and on and on.
I attempt to explain this in my fumbling way at the site below (please search on ?assassins ball? and you?ll find it ? rather lengthy, so did not want to take up too much space at Mr. Morley?s outstanding site! (with links to declassified docs, etc.)
https://web.archive.org/web/20151225102900/http://www.zerohedge.com:80/news/2015-12-21/whistleblower-exposes-exactly-how-government-spies-your-cell-phone?page=2
(Four international assassins: on the grassy knoll, turned-up collar was Moise Maschkivitzan and Lazlo the Hungarian, third tramp really was a tramp [not Hunt], and on the overpass, Jean Souetre, and in the Dal-Tex Building, most likely Lucien Conein, the CIA assassin: two Frenchmen, on Belgian Jew, and a Hungarian.)
Nothing like all the disinformation they spread!
Les secrets de l'affaire Lumumba - Page 143
https://books.google.com/books?isbn=2873863412 (https://www.google.com/search?q=sons+and+brothers+maschkivitzan+may+11&source=lnms&tbm=bks&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjB3ISjw8DcAhUCKqwKHYLRCMoQ_AUIECgB&biw=1707&bih=701&dpr=1.13)-
Luc de Vos - 2005 - Snippet view
Il ressort de l'examen des archives de la S?ret? de l'?tat que Maschkivitzan, qui avait ?t? condamn? pour escroquerie ... ce qui suit, se r?f?rant ? Richard Mahoney, Sons and Brothers: ? The ZR/RIFLE agent recruited in Europe and sent to the Congo ... In documents concerning CIA activities, one of the people considered to work under the code name QJ/WIN was a man born on 11 May 1910 in Antwerp....
https://kennedysandking.com/john-f-kennedy-reviews/kross-peter-jfk-the-french-connection
?..3) Kross insists throughout these chapters, that WIN and ROGUE were Corsicans when all the available evidence in his own book indicates they were from either Luxembourg or Belgium. (He may do this to sustain his Mafia angle.) Researcher Phil Dragoo pointed out to me that one Ludo De Witt (a top-notch journalist and researcher) also backed Mahoney?s earlier claims on the subject. Indeed, there is no mystery concerning QJ/WIN?s identity as it was unearthed in 1975:
31 Memorandum for the File: Alleged Agency Involvement in the Death of Patrice Lumumba, 10 March 1975, pp.1?2, Box 6, F2, Records of the Central Intelligence Agency ? Miscellaneous Files, NA; and Belgian Parliamentary Inquiry, p.130 identifies QJWIN as Moise Maschkivitzan, a Belgian-born convicted swindler who was expelled from Belgium in 1953. Assassination Plots, p.43.
Masckivitzan, an important and mysterious individual, never gets a mention in the Kross book. Indeed an excellent journal article by Edouard Bustin concerning the murder of Lumumba (which Kross ?the QJ/WIN expert? should have read), can be seen here . It surpasses much of the research in this book...
(http://jfkforum.com/images/QJWINmaschkivitsanRufinaKamienowiczNaturalizeMar1967.jpg)
https://www.fold3.com/record/76209205-rufina-kamienowicz
Full Name:
Rufina Kamienowicz
Birth Date:
2 Jul 1908
Death Date:
Jun 1996
Last Residence:
Sherman Oaks, CA
Social Security Number:
***-**-8233
Last Payment:
Sherman Oaks, CA
https://www.ancestrylibrary.com/interactive/9790/MM9.3.1_2FTH-266-11824-42683-22?pid=157590&backurl=http://search.ancestrylibrary.com/cgi-bin/sse.dll?_phsrc%3DuQW153%26_phstart%3DsuccessSource%26usePUBJs%3Dtrue%26qh%3DlDnOgXV6OMs5OSRMQVBRnQ%253D%253D%26gss%3Dangs-g%26new%3D1%26rank%3D1%26gsln%3Dmaschkivitzan%26gsln_x%3D0%26msypn__ftp%3DAntwerpen,%2520Antwerpen,%2520Belgium%26msypn%3D346391%26msbdy_x%3D1%26msbdy%3D1910%26catbucket%3Drstp%26MSAV%3D0%26uidh%3Dy16%26pcat%3DROOT_CATEGORY%26h%3D157590%26recoff%3D5%26dbid%3D9790%26indiv%3D1%26ml_rpos%3D1&usePUB=true&_phsrc=uQW153&_phstart=successSource&usePUBJs=true
(http://jfkforum.com/images/QJWINfatherIschel1877sisterRufina1908.jpg)
(http://jfkforum.com/images/QJWINsisterparentsArriveNYC1Feb60F.jpg)
(http://jfkforum.com/images/QJWINsisterparentsArriveNYC1Feb60S.jpg)
https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=7507&search=mozes#relPageId=33&tab=page
(http://jfkforum.com/images/QJWINborn11May1910Antwerp.jpg)
-
No replies, so far? I cannot say I am surprised, considering what most respond to in the threads here...
...trading insults, almost nothing is posted that could be described accurately as original and well supported. If anything,
the many posts are valued only by the authors of them, obscuring anything of any potential from a research standpoint.
Is that effect random or accidental?
The crux of this post and my post preceding it is that Chauncey Holt wrote of residing just one mile in late 1963 from
the Sherman Oaks address of the closest relatives, parents, sister, and nephew, of Mosez Matschuvitzkan who
was described in my last post as being QJWIN and as one of the actual Three Tramps!
.....
Self-Portrait of a Scoundrel
https://books.google.com/books?isbn=1937584380 (https://www.google.com/search?tbm=bks&hl=en&q=a+month+or+so+after+the+kennedy+assassination%2C+i+was+at+my+apartment+sherman+oaks&=)
Chauncey Holt - 2013 - Preview - More editions
Incidentally, two of the defendants were represented by ? you guessed it ? Joe Ball and Frank Belcher. ... A month or so after the Kennedy assassination, I was at my apartment at Horace Heidt Estates in Sherman Oaks, California, sharing ...
.....
https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=19091&search=Maschkivitzan#relPageId=2&tab=page
(http://jfkforum.com/images/QJWINrabneyCheslakMaschkivitzan.jpg)
(http://jfkforum.com/images/QJWINchaunceyHoltmile4460StansburyAveMosezSister.jpg)
Nephew's 1964 naturalization application shows same Stansbury Ave address as his mother Rufina's address in her
1967 naturalization application displayed in my last post. Both apps display the same sponsor.
(http://jfkforum.com/images/QJWINmaschkivitsanKamienowiczNaturalize9Nov1958.jpg)
The nephew of Mosez Maschkivitzan named immediately above is today a longtime California business owner
of some prominence.
-
Posted by: Tom Scully
? on: July 29, 2018, 02:16:32 AM ?
No replies, so far?
In 25 words or less, what does all that extensive use of bandwidth have to do with a Mauser?
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Posted by: Tom Scully
? on: July 29, 2018, 02:16:32 AM ? In 25 words or less, what does all that extensive use of bandwidth have to do with a Mauser?
Thumb1:
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The evidence showing that a Mauser was found in the TSBD is strong. This thread has shown that.
What could have prompted you to bother to add that empty little emission? Is it your idea of frosting on the cake?
Where is that cake, after 55 years? What is your point? Do you have one, or perceive a need to have one?
What is the constant presention of controversy which cannot possibly be resolved, actually about, aside
from trolling? Why not present on prayerman/woman hid a Mauser in that dark corner of the TSBD vestibule?
Pushing, for years here what even a kindergartener could anticipate is unproven and obviously impossible to
prove, since no physical Mauser or associated ammo became a physical exhibit linked to this investigation or is shown to
exist, photographed, or was taken into custody and maintained since by any official would be a cause for concern here,
even if you did not happen to be author of 340 of the 740 threads this forum consists of.
Only a disruptive, disinfo troll would present similarly to you or in anywhere near the frequency of your emmissions.
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What could have prompted you to bother to add that empty little emission? Is it your idea of frosting on the cake?
Where is that cake, after 55 years? What is your point? Do you have one, or perceive a need to have one?
What is the constant presention of controversy which cannot possibly be resolved, actually about, aside
from trolling? Why not present on prayerman/woman hid a Mauser in that dark corner of the TSBD vestibule?
Pushing, for years here what even a kindergartener could anticipate is unproven and obviously impossible to
prove, since no physical Mauser or associated ammo became a physical exhibit linked to this investigation or is shown to
exist, photographed, or was taken into custody and maintained since by any official would be a cause for concern here,
even if you did not happen to be author of 340 of the 740 threads this forum consists of.
Only a disruptive, disinfo troll would present similarly to you or in anywhere near the frequency of your emmissions.
Only a disruptive, disinfo troll would present the utter nonsense emmissions that you present Mr Scully.
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The Alyea Film, the police photos and the photos taken ( and published on the TV and newspapers) of Detective Day leaving the TSBD carrying the MANNLICHER CARCANO are solid proof that the rifle found on the sixth floor was a Mannlicher Carcano.
There definitely was a mauser involved....Seymour Weitzman DESCRIBED it in detail, and the FBI agent filed a report on Weitzman's description. But the rifle that was planted by carefully burying it beneath boxes of books in the TSBD was a model 91/38 Mannlicher Carcano.
Based on the information available, It appears that Captain Fritz brought a mauser to Weitzman in the presence of the FBI agent and Weitzman described that Mauser ...
I believe that Captain Fritz was suffering from Alzheimers and may have thought that the Mauser was the rifle that was found on the sixth floor. We know that Weitzman never had access to the Mannlicher Carcano on Friday....( Day had it locked up in the evidence lock up, and it was flown to Washington DC at midnight)....
Since The FBI report is dated 11 /23/63 Weitzman couldn't have handled the Carcano prior to the writing of the report....
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Was the Alyea film promoted at the time as finding the assassin's rifle?
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It is very hard to explain that Mauser/Carcano mess.
I think that Oswald ordered and owned that Carcano, that the backyard photos are genuine but speaking about Carcano on 11/22 it is very hard to rule out that the Carcano brought latter into TSBD.
First thing I do not believe is that the blanket in Ruth Paine garage was empty. All Marina statements were given via interpreter and we will never know what Marina really said. There is huge possibility that interpreter was translating what the public needed to hear.
I think that police did find the Carcano in Ruth Paine garage and that their first collusion was that Oswald took the rifle with him while leaving TSBD. Put yourself in 2PM on 11/22 and think about it. Oswald missing, initial search did not found the rifle which was hidden near the stairs. Initial taught: Oswald took the rifle with him. After the rifle was found in the garage it was brought to TSBD and "story" continued as it was found in TSBD.
You have to be aware that after Oswald was murdered all efforts were made to show him as assassin and that is the boldest truth of all.
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It is very hard to explain that Mauser/Carcano mess.
I think that Oswald ordered and owned that Carcano, that the backyard photos are genuine but speaking about Carcano on 11/22 it is very hard to rule out that the Carcano brought latter into TSBD.
First thing I do not believe is that the blanket in Ruth Paine garage was empty. All Marina statements were given via interpreter and we will never know what Marina really said. There is huge possibility that interpreter was translating what the public needed to hear.
I think that police did find the Carcano in Ruth Paine garage and that their first collusion was that Oswald took the rifle with him while leaving TSBD. Put yourself in 2PM on 11/22 and think about it. Oswald missing, initial search did not found the rifle which was hidden near the stairs. Initial taught: Oswald took the rifle with him. After the rifle was found in the garage it was brought to TSBD and "story" continued as it was found in TSBD.
You have to be aware that after Oswald was murdered all efforts were made to show him as assassin and that is the boldest truth of all.
"I think that Oswald ordered and owned that Carcano, that the backyard photos are genuine"
I believe that you're right... Lee did order a Mannlicher Carcano using a money order that was purchased by George De Morhenschildt. Lee used that rifle to create the B.Y. photo CE 133A which he intended to convince the viewer that he was a communist revolutionary like Fidel Castro. IOW...The primary intended use of that Carcano was simply a stage prop.
Lee Oswald himself apparently pronounced ONE of the Back Yard photos to be a fake..... I believe that photo was 133c...which is the photo Roscoe White gave to his wife....and it is the photo the police used to re-enact the back yard scene.
First thing I do not believe is that the blanket in Ruth Paine garage was empty. All Marina statements were given via interpreter and we will never know what Marina really said.
In November of 1983 the DMN published a special twentieth anniversary edition of the Coup d 'e'tat ......
In that paper Marina said.." We went to the garage to get the rifle, but the rifle was not in THE SACK"
She did not say the rifle was not in the Blanket.... So I believe that Marina was recalling seeing the rifle in a paper wrapper at some point......There's no doubt that the rifle was not there in the blanket.
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"I think that Oswald ordered and owned that Carcano, that the backyard photos are genuine"
I believe that you're right... Lee did order a Mannlicher Carcano using a money order that was purchased by George De Morhenschildt. Lee used that rifle to create the B.Y. photo CE 133A which he intended to convince the viewer that he was a communist revolutionary like Fidel Castro. IOW...The primary intended use of that Carcano was simply a stage prop.
Lee Oswald himself apparently pronounced ONE of the Back Yard photos to be a fake..... I believe that photo was 133c...which is the photo Roscoe White gave to his wife....and it is the photo the police used to re-enact the back yard scene.
First thing I do not believe is that the blanket in Ruth Paine garage was empty. All Marina statements were given via interpreter and we will never know what Marina really said.
In November of 1983 the DMN published a special twentieth anniversary edition of the Coup d 'e'tat ......
In that paper Marina said.." We went to the garage to get the rifle, but the rifle was not in THE SACK"
She did not say the rifle was not in the Blanket.... So I believe that Marina was recalling seeing the rifle in a paper wrapper at some point......There's no doubt that the rifle was not there in the blanket.
On 11/22 officers that went to the 2515 West Fifth Irving street were Richard Stovall, John Adamick and Guy Rose.
Stovall:
Mr. STOVALL. Shortly after that, Rose came back in carrying this blanket,
as well as I remember, it was tied at one end and the other end was open. well as I remember, it was tied at one end and the other end was open.
Mr. BALL. It was tied with what kind of material?
Mr. Srovau. It was tied with a white cord, as well as I remember.
Mr. BALL. A white what?
Mr. STDVALL. A white twine-it was thicker than a kite twine that you see
or use on kites-more like this they use for wrapping large packages and tying
them and he showed me that end, of course, he told me--
Mr. BALL. What did he tell you?
Mr. STOVALL. He told me that when he went to the garage, Marina had
pointed to the blanket there and she said something to Ruth Paine and Ruth
Paine told him that that was where Lee kept his rifle.
Adamick:
Mr. BELIN. All right, then what happened?
Mr. ADAMCIK. Well, we went through the house, if I remember correctly, and I believe the other detectives found some property. I know they found this blanket that was rolled up in the garage.
Mr. BELIN. Were you there when they saw the blanket?
Mr. ADAMCIK. No; I wasn't there. I saw the blanket later.
Mr. BELIN. Where was it when you first saw it?
Mr. ADAMCIK. I believe they took it in the house. I am pretty sure.
Mr. BELIN. Had they unrolled the blanket when they took it in the house?
Mr. ADAMCIK. No; they had a string still tied around it. Apparently had two strings, and just one of the strings were cut.
Mr. BELIN. One of the strings was cut?
Mr. ADAMCIK. Yes.
Mr. BELIN. Who cut it, do you know?
Mr. ADAMCIK. I don't have any idea.
Mr. BELIN. Had it been cut by an officer of the Dallas Police Department?
Mr. ADAMCIK. No; it definitely wasn't.
Mr. BELIN. Pardon?
Mr. ADAMCIK. Definitely wasn't. As far as I know, it wasn't.
Mr. BELIN. How was the blanket rolled, do you know, offhand, approximately?
Mr. ADAMCIK. It appeared to be 4 or 5 feet, maybe.
Mr. BELIN. Was there anything in the blanket?
Mr. ADAMCIK. Not that I could see.
Mr. BELIN. Was the blanket stiff or limp?
Mr. ADAMCIK. It was a regular wool blanket, and it wasn't fairly stiff. Just from being rolled that way, it didn't appear like it was real stiff. Just normal.
Mr. BELIN. Did you see anyone carrying the blanket?
Mr. ADAMCIK. No; I didn't.
Mr. BELIN. Did you lift the blanket up?
Mr. ADAMCIK. No; I never did lift the blanket up.
Rose:
Mr. ROSE. Well, I was the senior detective that was there, and so I was sort of the spokesman for the group, I suppose, and Stovall wen into the bedroom of Marina Oswald--Marina Oswald's bedroom, and I don't remember where Adamcik went first, but I talked with Ruth Paine a few minutes and she told me that Marina was there and that she was Lee Oswald's wife and that she was a citizen of Russia, and so I called Captain Fritz on the phone and told him what I had found out there and asked him if there was any special instructions, and he said, "Well, ask her about her husband, ask her if her husband has a rifle." I turned and asked Marina, but she didn't seem to understand. She said she couldn't understand, so Ruth Paine spoke in Russian to her and Ruth Paine also interpreted for me, and she said that Marina said--first she said Marina said "No," and then a minute Marina said, "Yes, he does have." So, then I talked to Captain Fritz for a moment and hung up the phone and I asked Marina if she would show me where his rifle was and Ruth Paine interpreted and Marina pointed to the garage and she took me to the garage and she pointed to a blanket that was rolled up and laying on the floor near the wall of the garage and Ruth Paine said, "Says that that's where his rifle is." Well, at the time I couldn't tell whether there was one in there or not. It appeared to be--it was in sort of an outline of a rifle.
Mr. BALL. You mean the blanket had the outline of a rifle?
Mr. ROSE. Yes; it did.
Mr. BALL. Was it tied at one end?
Mr. ROSE. Yes, sir; it was sort of rolled up, but it was flattened out from laying down and tied near the middle, I would say, with a cord and so I went on and picked the blanket up, but it was empty--it didn't have the rifle in it.
Mr. BALL. You brought that in?
Mr. ROSE. Yes; I did.
So, three detectives did not roll the blanket out. None of them stated, we rolled the blanket out and saw it was empty.
It seems to be very unclear if the blanket was empty or not. Why wouldn't they unroll it and see that it was empty? Because it wasn't.
-
Pssssst....Richie..... There is photographic PROOF that there was seven red rings on the windows of the TSBD at the time of the coup d e'tat.... We can argue about the meaning of those red rings but there's no denying that they were there...and there is also photographic PROOF that the rifle that was found where it had been carefully hidden beneath heavy boxes of books was the mannlicher carcano.....
Photos prove that my positions on both issues are valid......
Walt, I'd be interested as a newbie to see the photographs of the red rings... I've never seen them or much read about them... Could you post a photo or give me a link?
Thanks, Jake
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On 11/22 officers that went to the 2515 West Fifth Irving street were Richard Stovall, John Adamick and Guy Rose.
Stovall:
Mr. STOVALL. Shortly after that, Rose came back in carrying this blanket,
as well as I remember, it was tied at one end and the other end was open. well as I remember, it was tied at one end and the other end was open.
Mr. BALL. It was tied with what kind of material?
Mr. Srovau. It was tied with a white cord, as well as I remember.
Mr. BALL. A white what?
Mr. STDVALL. A white twine-it was thicker than a kite twine that you see
or use on kites-more like this they use for wrapping large packages and tying
them and he showed me that end, of course, he told me--
Mr. BALL. What did he tell you?
Mr. STOVALL. He told me that when he went to the garage, Marina had
pointed to the blanket there and she said something to Ruth Paine and Ruth
Paine told him that that was where Lee kept his rifle.
Adamick:
Mr. BELIN. All right, then what happened?
Mr. ADAMCIK. Well, we went through the house, if I remember correctly, and I believe the other detectives found some property. I know they found this blanket that was rolled up in the garage.
Mr. BELIN. Were you there when they saw the blanket?
Mr. ADAMCIK. No; I wasn't there. I saw the blanket later.
Mr. BELIN. Where was it when you first saw it?
Mr. ADAMCIK. I believe they took it in the house. I am pretty sure.
Mr. BELIN. Had they unrolled the blanket when they took it in the house?
Mr. ADAMCIK. No; they had a string still tied around it. Apparently had two strings, and just one of the strings were cut.
Mr. BELIN. One of the strings was cut?
Mr. ADAMCIK. Yes.
Mr. BELIN. Who cut it, do you know?
Mr. ADAMCIK. I don't have any idea.
Mr. BELIN. Had it been cut by an officer of the Dallas Police Department?
Mr. ADAMCIK. No; it definitely wasn't.
Mr. BELIN. Pardon?
Mr. ADAMCIK. Definitely wasn't. As far as I know, it wasn't.
Mr. BELIN. How was the blanket rolled, do you know, offhand, approximately?
Mr. ADAMCIK. It appeared to be 4 or 5 feet, maybe.
Mr. BELIN. Was there anything in the blanket?
Mr. ADAMCIK. Not that I could see.
Mr. BELIN. Was the blanket stiff or limp?
Mr. ADAMCIK. It was a regular wool blanket, and it wasn't fairly stiff. Just from being rolled that way, it didn't appear like it was real stiff. Just normal.
Mr. BELIN. Did you see anyone carrying the blanket?
Mr. ADAMCIK. No; I didn't.
Mr. BELIN. Did you lift the blanket up?
Mr. ADAMCIK. No; I never did lift the blanket up.
Rose:
Mr. ROSE. Well, I was the senior detective that was there, and so I was sort of the spokesman for the group, I suppose, and Stovall wen into the bedroom of Marina Oswald--Marina Oswald's bedroom, and I don't remember where Adamcik went first, but I talked with Ruth Paine a few minutes and she told me that Marina was there and that she was Lee Oswald's wife and that she was a citizen of Russia, and so I called Captain Fritz on the phone and told him what I had found out there and asked him if there was any special instructions, and he said, "Well, ask her about her husband, ask her if her husband has a rifle." I turned and asked Marina, but she didn't seem to understand. She said she couldn't understand, so Ruth Paine spoke in Russian to her and Ruth Paine also interpreted for me, and she said that Marina said--first she said Marina said "No," and then a minute Marina said, "Yes, he does have." So, then I talked to Captain Fritz for a moment and hung up the phone and I asked Marina if she would show me where his rifle was and Ruth Paine interpreted and Marina pointed to the garage and she took me to the garage and she pointed to a blanket that was rolled up and laying on the floor near the wall of the garage and Ruth Paine said, "Says that that's where his rifle is." Well, at the time I couldn't tell whether there was one in there or not. It appeared to be--it was in sort of an outline of a rifle.
Mr. BALL. You mean the blanket had the outline of a rifle?
Mr. ROSE. Yes; it did.
Mr. BALL. Was it tied at one end?
Mr. ROSE. Yes, sir; it was sort of rolled up, but it was flattened out from laying down and tied near the middle, I would say, with a cord and so I went on and picked the blanket up, but it was empty--it didn't have the rifle in it.
Mr. BALL. You brought that in?
Mr. ROSE. Yes; I did.
So, three detectives did not roll the blanket out. None of them stated, we rolled the blanket out and saw it was empty.
It seems to be very unclear if the blanket was empty or not. Why wouldn't they unroll it and see that it was empty? Because it wasn't.
I'm sure they could tell if a rolled up blanket had anything rigid in it without unrolling it.
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Many folks who are ignorant about the differences between a Argentine 7.65 Mauser, and the Italian Mannlicher Carcano
( which was found carefully hidden beneath boxes of books, near the NW stairway in the TSBD ) should pay attention to Weitzman's description of the rifle that he described for the FBI report.....
Nov 23 1963
Weitzman FBI Report
Mr. Weitzman described the rifle was found as a 7.65 caliber Mauser action rifle, loads from a five shot clip is locked on the underside of the receiver forward of the trigger guard.
The metal parts of this rifle were of a gun metal color, gray or blue and the rear portion of the bolt was visibly worn.
The wooden portions of this rifle were a dark brown in color and of rough wood apparently having been used or damaged to a considerable extent.
The rifle was equipped with a four power 18 scope of apparent Japanese manufacture. It's also equipped with a thick brown- black leather bandolier type sling
five shot clip
locked on the underside of trigger guard
dark brown in color and of rough wood
rear portion of the bold visibly worn
wooden portions damaged to a considerable extent
four power 18 scope Japanese make
brown-black leather bandolier type strap
Note the date..... November 23, 1963
Mr. Weitzman described the rifle was found as a 7.65 caliber Mauser
Weitzman said the rifle was a 7.65 caliber bolt action, Mauser.
five shot clip
The Carcano uses a SIX cartridge clip
locked on the underside of trigger guard
The six shot carcano clip is loaded from the top....It slides down into the magazine.....
rear portion of the bold visibly worn
The Carcano bolt is NOT visibly worn
wooden portions damaged to a considerable extent
The wooden stock of the Mannlicher Carcano is NOT damaged
four power 18 scope
The scope on the Mannlicher Carcano was not stamped four power, 18
equipped with a thick brown- black leather bandolier type sling
Look at the photos of the Mannlicher carcano....It has a flimsy light duty sling ...black on the finish side, and pink or tan on the raw side ...And it it NOT a bandolier type sling......
Obviously, the rifle being described in the FBI report is a 7.65 Mauser and it is NOT a Mannlicher Carcano.
I can't find the film clips of Detective Day removing the carcano from beneath the boxes of books.....Would someone please post a link to that film?
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Walt, I'd be interested as a newbie to see the photographs of the red rings... I've never seen them or much read about them... Could you post a photo or give me a link?
Thanks, Jake
Hi Jake.....The color photos showing the red rings have been posted many times in this forum.....I'll see if I can find a good link.
PS There is a color photo ( The Powell photo) on page 158 of TKOAP that shows the red rings on the windows of the TSBD.
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It is very hard to explain that Mauser/Carcano mess.
I think that Oswald ordered and owned that Carcano, that the backyard photos are genuine but speaking about Carcano on 11/22 it is very hard to rule out that the Carcano brought latter into TSBD.
First thing I do not believe is that the blanket in Ruth Paine garage was empty. All Marina statements were given via interpreter and we will never know what Marina really said. There is huge possibility that interpreter was translating what the public needed to hear.
I think that police did find the Carcano in Ruth Paine garage and that their first collusion was that Oswald took the rifle with him while leaving TSBD. Put yourself in 2PM on 11/22 and think about it. Oswald missing, initial search did not found the rifle which was hidden near the stairs. Initial taught: Oswald took the rifle with him. After the rifle was found in the garage it was brought to TSBD and "story" continued as it was found in TSBD.
You have to be aware that after Oswald was murdered all efforts were made to show him as assassin and that is the boldest truth of all.
Any evidence for that?
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Oswald's rifle C2766 was filmed as it was picked up and this footage was broadcast on television just a few hours later.
(https://i.ytimg.com/vi/A1eD6Ac9l_E/hqdefault.jpg)
[youtube]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=94APWcGDMyY
Oswald's rifle C2766 on the same afternoon was paraded in front of the press.
(https://static.politico.com/dims4/default/c201221/2147483647/resize/1160x%3E/quality/90/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fstatic.politico.com%2F75%2F80%2F6d4b362c4e78954d361b78da333b%2F17802-shenon-gun-ap.jpg)
(https://i0.wp.com/www.newnationalist.net/wp-content/uploads/2017/12/JFK-assassination-weapon.jpg?fit=1200%2C700&ssl=1)
JohnM
(https://i0.wp.com/www.newnationalist.net/wp-content/uploads/2017/12/JFK-assassination-weapon.jpg?fit=1200%2C700&ssl=1)
Lt John Carl Day, of the DPD...( seen holding the carcano over his head in the photo) swore that he placed cellophane tape over the partial finger prints that he found on the trigger guard / magazine while examining the rifle in the TSBD at about 1:45 PM that afternoon.
Can anybody see any cellophane tape on that trigger guard???
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(https://i0.wp.com/www.newnationalist.net/wp-content/uploads/2017/12/JFK-assassination-weapon.jpg?fit=1200%2C700&ssl=1)
Lt John Carl Day, of the DPD...( seen holding the carcano over his head in the photo) swore that he placed cellophane tape over the partial finger prints that he found on the trigger guard / magazine while examining the rifle in the TSBD at about 1:45 PM that afternoon.
Can anybody see any cellophane tape on that trigger guard???
The clock on the wall reveals that the photo was taken a 6:17 .....
(https://i0.wp.com/www.newnationalist.net/wp-content/uploads/2017/12/JFK-assassination-weapon.jpg?fit=1200%2C700&ssl=1)
At that time the rifle had not been disassembled by Lt Day....( according to the official tale) I've always wanted to enlarge this photo to the point where the slots in the three screw heads are visible.... I'm sure that the slots in those screws are in exactly the same position when the FBI received the rifle in their lab.... Which means Day never disassembled the rifle....
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(https://i0.wp.com/www.newnationalist.net/wp-content/uploads/2017/12/JFK-assassination-weapon.jpg?fit=1200%2C700&ssl=1)
Lt John Carl Day, of the DPD...( seen holding the carcano over his head in the photo) swore that he placed cellophane tape over the partial finger prints that he found on the trigger guard / magazine while examining the rifle in the TSBD at about 1:45 PM that afternoon.
Can anybody see any cellophane tape on that trigger guard???
When did Lt John Carl Day, of the DPD, swear that he placed cellophane tape over the partial finger prints that he found on the trigger guard / magazine while examining the rifle in the TSBD at about 1:45 PM that afternoon?
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The Trigger-Housing Fingerprints
http://www.jfk-online.com/prints.html
The fingerprint traces found on the side of the trigger housing of the rifle were first photographed and then covered with cellophane tape by Lieutenant Day to protect them for shipment to the FBI lab in Washington, DC. Lieutenant Day had determined that the fingerprints were too light to do a lift first and then photograph, so he photographed the fingerprints before covering them with the tape. (5) He also scratched his name on the stock of the rifle. When testifying later in Washington to the Warren Commission, Lieutenant Day told Rusty and me that he had some trouble finding his name because it was very faint.(6)
As Lieutenant Day worked on the rifle during the evening, Chief Curry came into the Crime Lab Office. Lieutenant Day told him at the time that he had located a trace of a print on the trigger housing, but he had not yet had a chance to do a comparison check with Oswald's print card. He told Rusty and me that the Chief then went back down to the third floor and told the newsmen that we had a print. He said that he had not told Chief Curry that it was Oswald's print at that time.
(...)
Lieutenant Day did not try to lift the fingerprints that he found on the trigger housing of the rifle on November 22nd, 1963. He photographed them only, and later did try to do a fingerprint comparison from a print card of Oswald to determine if he had held the rifle. Day stated to the Warren Commission that he could not exclude all possibility as to whose prints they were, but he did say that he thought that they were the right middle and right ring finger of Oswald.(7)
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The Trigger-Housing Fingerprints
http://www.jfk-online.com/prints.html
The fingerprint traces found on the side of the trigger housing of the rifle were first photographed and then covered with cellophane tape by Lieutenant Day to protect them for shipment to the FBI lab in Washington, DC. Lieutenant Day had determined that the fingerprints were too light to do a lift first and then photograph, so he photographed the fingerprints before covering them with the tape. (5) He also scratched his name on the stock of the rifle. When testifying later in Washington to the Warren Commission, Lieutenant Day told Rusty and me that he had some trouble finding his name because it was very faint.(6)
As Lieutenant Day worked on the rifle during the evening, Chief Curry came into the Crime Lab Office. Lieutenant Day told him at the time that he had located a trace of a print on the trigger housing, but he had not yet had a chance to do a comparison check with Oswald's print card. He told Rusty and me that the Chief then went back down to the third floor and told the newsmen that we had a print. He said that he had not told Chief Curry that it was Oswald's print at that time.
(...)
Lieutenant Day did not try to lift the fingerprints that he found on the trigger housing of the rifle on November 22nd, 1963. He photographed them only, and later did try to do a fingerprint comparison from a print card of Oswald to determine if he had held the rifle. Day stated to the Warren Commission that he could not exclude all possibility as to whose prints they were, but he did say that he thought that they were the right middle and right ring finger of Oswald.(7)
Tom Alyea has recorded that he watched as Lt Day applied cellophane tape to the print and lifted it from the rifle....
Mr. DAY. After ejecting the live round, then I gave my attention to the rifle. I put fingerprint powder on the side of the rifle over the magazine housing. I noticed it was rather rough. I also noticed there were traces of two prints visible. I told Captain Fritz it was too rough to do there, it should go to the office where I would have better facilities for trying to work with the fingerprints.
Mr. McCLOY. But you could note with your naked eye or with a magnifying glass the remnants of fingerprints on the stock?
Mr. DAY. Yes, sir; I could see traces of ridges, fingerprint ridges, on the side of the housing.
Day said that He placed cellophane tape over the prints to protect them until he could examine them under better conditions in the police lab.
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Tom Alyea has recorded that he watched as Lt Day applied cellophane tape to the print and lifted it from the rifle....
Mr. DAY. After ejecting the live round, then I gave my attention to the rifle. I put fingerprint powder on the side of the rifle over the magazine housing. I noticed it was rather rough. I also noticed there were traces of two prints visible. I told Captain Fritz it was too rough to do there, it should go to the office where I would have better facilities for trying to work with the fingerprints.
Mr. McCLOY. But you could note with your naked eye or with a magnifying glass the remnants of fingerprints on the stock?
Mr. DAY. Yes, sir; I could see traces of ridges, fingerprint ridges, on the side of the housing.
Day said that He placed cellophane tape over the prints to protect them until he could examine them under better conditions in the police lab.
Tom Alyea has recorded that he watched as Lt Day applied cellophane tape to the print and lifted it from the rifle
That was the palm print under the stock
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When did Lt John Carl Day, of the DPD, swear that he placed cellophane tape over the partial finger prints that he found on the trigger guard / magazine while examining the rifle in the TSBD at about 1:45 PM that afternoon?
We have Lt Day himself saying that he placed cellophane tape over a print .... And we have Tom Alyea saying that he witnessed Day using Celophane tape on a print in the TSBD....
Now then...Isn't it a fact that Day swore that he never saw the palm print until he disassembled the rifle in the DPD crime lab that evening....
So he couldn't have been using cellophane tape on the palm print.....Now could he??
So either Day was applying cellophane tape to the trigger guard prints....OR... He did not find the so called palm print on the metal barrel beneath the wooden stock after he disassembled the rifle.
Either way...You're forced to accept that Day was a damned liar....
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We have Lt Day himself saying that he placed cellophane tape over a print .... And we have Tom Alyea saying that he witnessed Day using Celophane tape on a print in the TSBD....
Now then...Isn't it a fact that Day swore that he never saw the palm print until he disassembled the rifle in the DPD crime lab that evening....
So he couldn't have been using cellophane tape on the palm print.....Now could he??
So either Day was applying cellophane tape to the trigger guard prints....OR... He did not find the so called palm print on the metal barrel beneath the wooden stock after he disassembled the rifle.
Either way...You're forced to accept that Day was a damned liar....
Walt, you forcefully asserted that Day swore that he placed cellophane tape over the partial finger prints that he found on the trigger guard / magazine while examining the rifle in the TSBD at about 1:45 PM that afternoon. You were wrong. Just admit it and move on.
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Walt, you forcefully asserted that Day swore that he placed cellophane tape over the partial finger prints that he found on the trigger guard / magazine while examining the rifle in the TSBD at about 1:45 PM that afternoon. You were wrong. Just admit it and move on.
The question is:.... Did Lt Day use cellophane tape on the rifle while examining it in the TSBD that afternoon?
Tom Alyea is on record as having witnessed Lt. Day use cellophane tape while examining the rifle at about 2:00PM that afternoon.
Now, using the official tale....He could not have been using the cellophane tape on the so called "palm print" because he didn't discover that print until he disassembled the rifle in the Police lab that evening.
So, Now then, Ol wise one.... What prints could Day have been using the cellophane tape on at 2:00 pm as Tom Alyea watched??
PS...There is an good reasonable answer to this puzzle....
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The question is:.... Did Lt Day use cellophane tape on the rifle while examining it in the TSBD that afternoon?
Tom Alyea is on record as having witnessed Lt. Day use cellophane tape while examining the rifle at about 2:00PM that afternoon.
Now, using the official tale....He could not have been using the cellophane tape on the so called "palm print" because he didn't discover that print until he disassembled the rifle in the Police lab that evening.
So, Now then, Ol wise one.... What prints could Day have been using the cellophane tape on at 2:00 pm as Tom Alyea watched??
PS...There is an good reasonable answer to this puzzle....
Alyea is also on record as saying that there were no chicken bones on the sixth floor. He said that they were on the fifth floor. Alyea is also on record as saying that Sheriff Mooney never reached the sixth floor until after the rifle was found.
Your puzzle has now been reasonably answered.
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he didn't discover that print until he disassembled the rifle in the Police lab that evening.
Bottom of page how [analyst] Latona mentions the old p.o.s rifle couldn't maintain latent prints......
https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=34#relPageId=38&tab=page
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Bottom of page how [analyst] Latona mentions the old p.o.s rifle couldn't maintain latent prints......
https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=34#relPageId=38&tab=page
That's the same Latona who confirmed that the palm print was Oswald's and who later confirmed that the print had indeed been lifted from the barrel of Oswald's rifle.
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Alyea is also on record as saying that there were no chicken bones on the sixth floor. He said that they were on the fifth floor. Alyea is also on record as saying that Sheriff Mooney never reached the sixth floor until after the rifle was found.
Your puzzle has now been reasonably answered.
Not Quite..Snickerson....Because Lt Day himself said that Alyea filmed him as he examined the rifle....
The latent fingerprints appeared immediately while the rifle was being dusted on the sixth floor after it was located behind the stacks of boxes. This action was captured on film by a news photographer who had been allowed on the sixth floor by police.
And don't you agree that it would be a bit stupid for Lt Day to lift a palm print off the gun and then hastily scrawl " off underside gun barrell near end of foregrip on rifle C 2766." After all he was allegedly in the police lab where he could have neatly typed up a complete detailed description of what he'd found....
Perhaps you can't remember that Alyea described Day LIFTING a print from the rifle and placing that lift on a 3 X 5 file card and then hastily scrawling the information pertaining to the cellophane tape with the smudge on it.
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Tom Alyea has recorded that he watched as Lt Day applied cellophane tape to the print and lifted it from the rifle
That was the palm print under the stock
Tom Alyea has recorded that he watched as Lt Day applied cellophane tape to the print and lifted it from the rifle
That was the palm print under the stock.
HUH??.... I believe you need to put a cork in it....Tom Alyea was NOT in the police crime lab on the evening od 11 /22 /63, and watching Detective Day examine the rifle ... But He definitely was on the sixth floor of the TSBD that afternoon and he watched as Day examined the rifle and lifted a print from that rifle....
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Not Quite..Snickerson....Because Lt Day himself said that Alyea filmed him as he examined the rifle....
The latent fingerprints appeared immediately while the rifle was being dusted on the sixth floor after it was located behind the stacks of boxes. This action was captured on film by a news photographer who had been allowed on the sixth floor by police.
And don't you agree that it would be a bit stupid for Lt Day to lift a palm print off the gun and then hastily scrawl " off underside gun barrell near end of foregrip on rifle C 2766." After all he was allegedly in the police lab where he could have neatly typed up a complete detailed description of what he'd found....
Perhaps you can't remember that Alyea described Day LIFTING a print from the rifle and placing that lift on a 3 X 5 file card and then hastily scrawling the information pertaining to the cellophane tape with the smudge on it.
Geez Walt, you ought to retire from this stuff. What Alyea described was not accurate. Alyea recalled a number of things that were just not so.
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Geez Walt, you ought to retire from this stuff. What Alyea described was not accurate. Alyea recalled a number of things that were just not so.
I understand that you don't want to acknowledge that Tom Alyea reported what he saw.... And who are you to deny that he saw chicken bones on the fifth floor... There very well could have been chicken bones on any floor and in any number of places where a person might eat a snack or his lunch...But even Day himself acknowledged that Tom Alyea watched him as he examined the rifle .....and filmed the rifle in place.
And as proof we have some of Alyea's film which does in fact prove to anybody who isn't suffering from cranial rectalitis that Alyea reported what he saw....And he swore that he saw Detective Day use cellophane tape on that rifle while examining it in the TSBD.
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I understand that you don't want to acknowledge that Tom Alyea reported what he saw.... And who are you to deny that he saw chicken bones on the fifth floor... There very well could have been chicken bones on any floor and in any number of places where a person might eat a snack or his lunch...But even Day himself acknowledged that Tom Alyea watched him as he examined the rifle .....and filmed the rifle in place.
And as proof we have some of Alyea's film which does in fact prove to anybody who isn't suffering from cranial rectalitis that Alyea reported what he saw....And he swore that he saw Detective Day use cellophane tape on that rifle while examining it in the TSBD.
He didn't just say that he saw chicken bones on the fifth floor. He said that the sack containing those chicken bones and the Dr. Pepper bottle, that he filmed Studebaker dusting for prints, were on the fifth floor and that there were no chicken bones at all on the sixth floor.
Alyea's film footage doesn't prove what you think it proves.
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He didn't just say that he saw chicken bones on the fifth floor. He said that the sack containing those chicken bones and the Dr. Pepper bottle, that he filmed Studebaker dusting for prints, were on the fifth floor and that there were no chicken bones at all on the sixth floor.
Alyea's film footage doesn't prove what you think it proves.
The chicken stuff that was in the Smoker's Nook behind the SE corner window on the sixth floor apparently was moved around a bit before it was gathered up to be taken to the DPD crime lab. Perhaps it had been removed or moved to a different location and it wasn't there when Alyea saw the Smoker's nook.... Neither you nor I can know the exact details....
And Alyea's footage most certainly DOES show the Carcano lying on THE FLOOR on it's right side, with the butt plate parallel with the floor, and on a North South axis. The leather sling was up......
That rifle was NOT jammed between boxes of books when Day picked it up by the leather sling that was right there at his finger tips...
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The chicken stuff that was in the Smoker's Nook behind the SE corner window on the sixth floor apparently was moved around a bit before it was gathered up to be taken to the DPD crime lab. Perhaps it had been removed or moved to a different location and it wasn't there when Alyea saw the Smoker's nook.... Neither you nor I can know the exact details....
And Alyea's footage most certainly DOES show the Carcano lying on THE FLOOR on it's right side, with the butt plate parallel with the floor, and on a North South axis. The leather sling was up......
That rifle was NOT jammed between boxes of books when Day picked it up by the leather sling that was right there at his finger tips...
That's IF you believe Alyea was actually filming the Initial Retrieval of the Carcano and was not duped into filming a Staged Retrieval of the Carcano. The Alyea film Not showing an empty Carcano Clip extending from the bottom of the rifle, (as was later captured on Images of the Carcano as it was being carried from the TSBD by Lt Day), makes one believe the Carcano had been handled by law enforcement Prior to the Alyea footage.
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The chicken stuff that was in the Smoker's Nook behind the SE corner window on the sixth floor apparently was moved around a bit before it was gathered up to be taken to the DPD crime lab. Perhaps it had been removed or moved to a different location and it wasn't there when Alyea saw the Smoker's nook.... Neither you nor I can know the exact details....
And Alyea's footage most certainly DOES show the Carcano lying on THE FLOOR on it's right side, with the butt plate parallel with the floor, and on a North South axis. The leather sling was up......
That rifle was NOT jammed between boxes of books when Day picked it up by the leather sling that was right there at his finger tips...
"And Alyea's footage most certainly DOES show the Carcano lying on THE FLOOR on it's right side, with the butt plate parallel with the floor, and on a North South axis. The leather sling was up......"
No it doesn't . You're lying again.
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"And Alyea's footage most certainly DOES show the Carcano lying on THE FLOOR on it's right side, with the butt plate parallel with the floor, and on a North South axis. The leather sling was up......"
No it doesn't . You're lying again.
The Alyea footage Clearly shows NO CLIP extending/hanging out of the underside of the rifle. Lt Day and Fritz spun that rifle around as it was dusted for prints. They even jerked around on it as they ejected a live round from the chamber. Still NO CLIP visible. Yet, when Lt. Day parades out of the TSBD "POOF". We Suddenly have images showing a CLIP dangling from the underside of the Carcano. Definitely David Copperfield worthy work being employed that day.
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That's IF you believe Alyea was actually filming the Initial Retrieval of the Carcano and was not duped into filming a Staged Retrieval of the Carcano. The Alyea film Not showing an empty Carcano Clip extending from the bottom of the rifle, (as was later captured on Images of the Carcano as it was being carried from the TSBD by Lt Day), makes one believe the Carcano had been handled by law enforcement Prior to the Alyea footage.
That's IF you believe Alyea was actually filming the Initial Retrieval of the Carcano and was not duped into filming a Staged Retrieval of the Carcano.
The Carcano was discovered at 1:22 PM....Day was photographed leaving the TSBD with the Carcano at about 2:10 PM and he was at police headquarters with the rifle before 3:00 PM...
When would a "staged Retrieval" have taken place??
The Alyea film Not showing an empty Carcano Clip extending from the bottom of the rifle, (as was later captured on Images of the Carcano as it was being carried from the TSBD by Lt Day), makes one believe the Carcano had been handled by law enforcement Prior to the Alyea footage.
But Alyea's footage DOES in fact show the clip in the magazine... It's not hanging out of the magazine as it is seen in the photos of Day carrying the Carcano out of the TSBD, but it was in the magazine at the time that Alyea filmed Detective Day dusting the rifle for prints behind the brightly lit west window of the TSBD...
That clip was not jammed or stuck or hung up in the magazine... I was freely sliding around in the mag as the rifle was handled...and by the time Day left the TSBD with the rifle it had worked it's way out to the point it was nearly ready to drop free of magazine.
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"And Alyea's footage most certainly DOES show the Carcano lying on THE FLOOR on it's right side, with the butt plate parallel with the floor, and on a North South axis. The leather sling was up......"
No it doesn't . You're lying again.
Please take a look ...see for yourself.... That's why you were given the gift of sight.... Watch closely starting at the 0:33 point and through the 0:35 point....
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That's IF you believe Alyea was actually filming the Initial Retrieval of the Carcano and was not duped into filming a Staged Retrieval of the Carcano.
The Carcano was discovered at 1:22 PM....Day was photographed leaving the TSBD with the Carcano at about 2:10 PM and he was at police headquarters with the rifle before 3:00 PM...
When would a "staged Retrieval" have taken place??
The Alyea film Not showing an empty Carcano Clip extending from the bottom of the rifle, (as was later captured on Images of the Carcano as it was being carried from the TSBD by Lt Day), makes one believe the Carcano had been handled by law enforcement Prior to the Alyea footage.
But Alyea's footage DOES in fact show the clip in the magazine... It's not hanging out of the magazine as it is seen in the photos of Day carrying the Carcano out of the TSBD, but it was in the magazine at the time that Alyea filmed Detective Day dusting the rifle for prints behind the brightly lit west window of the TSBD...
That clip was not jammed or stuck or hung up in the magazine... I was freely sliding around in the mag as the rifle was handled...and by the time Day left the TSBD with the rifle it had worked it's way out to the point it was nearly ready to drop free of magazine.
I have seen NO Alyea footage "showing" the Clip as you claim. If as You claim the Clip is: (1) "IN the magazine", and (2) "NOT Hanging Out of the magazine", how would it be visible in the Alyea footage?
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I have seen NO Alyea footage "showing" the Clip as you claim. If as You claim the Clip is: (1) "IN the magazine", and (2) "NOT Hanging Out of the magazine", how would it be visible in the Alyea footage?
A couple of years ago a poster in this forum posted a clip ( a single frame) of Alyea's film that showed Day working over the rifle behind the brightly lit west window and Day had the aperture of the magazine turned toward Alyea's camera... Thelight colored brass clip was visible in the magazine.
Naturally that destroys many pet theories that rest on the clip being absent....and many cases of Cranium Rectalitis immediately surfaced and the suffering victims couldn't see the clip.
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A couple of years ago a poster in this forum posted a clip ( a single frame) of Alyea's film that showed Day working over the rifle behind the brightly lit west window and Day had the aperture of the magazine turned toward Alyea's camera... Thelight colored brass clip was visible in the magazine.
Naturally that destroys many pet theories that rest on the clip being absent....and many cases of Cranium Rectalitis immediately surfaced and the suffering victims couldn't see the clip.
That Image was Inconclusive. I remember it being debated as to whether we were actually seeing something BEHIND the rifle. The clarity of the Alyea Film has always been an issue. Your claiming what you Want to see as being a fact only damages your other Opinions regarding the assassination of JFK. It also misleads JFK Assassination Newbes.
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That Image was Inconclusive. I remember it being debated as to whether we were actually seeing something BEHIND the rifle. The clarity of the Alyea Film has always been an issue. Your claiming what you Want to see as being a fact only damages your other Opinions regarding the assassination of JFK. It also misleads JFK Assassination Newbes.
That Image was Inconclusive.
Do you have the image?... I reproduced the image using A carcano and a brass clip.... I'm 100% certain that there was a clip in the magazine as Detective Day examined it...But he was such a clutz that he had no idea what he was doing...(Or perhaps the pressure in the aftermath of the murder that he was involved in cause brain paralysis ) And YES He was one of the conspirators...in the cover up.
The clarity of the Alyea Film has always been an issue.
I agree...And WHY do suppose that is?? Tom Alyea was a professional reporter and photographer...Why do the clips of his fillm look like the work of an amateur ?? Wanna offer a speculation? Why are the really important parts cropped?? WHO screened his stuff before it was released...Wasn't it Hoover's gang?
PS Do you remember the name of the man who posted the Alyea frame?
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The Alyea footage Clearly shows NO CLIP extending/hanging out of the underside of the rifle. Lt Day and Fritz spun that rifle around as it was dusted for prints. They even jerked around on it as they ejected a live round from the chamber. Still NO CLIP visible. Yet, when Lt. Day parades out of the TSBD "POOF". We Suddenly have images showing a CLIP dangling from the underside of the Carcano. Definitely David Copperfield worthy work being employed that day.
Royell, There definitely was a brass ammo clip in the magazine of the Carcano at the time Detective Day was examining the rifle for finger prints behind the sunlit window of the TSBD. I'm 100% certain that this is a fact.....
It is also true that that clip should NOT ( and COULD NOT) have been there in that rifle if it had been fired and stripped of the cartridges in it, less than an hour earlier. ( The action of operating the bolt would have stripped the last cartridge from the clip and the clip would have fallen free out of the aperture in the bottom of the magazine of the rifle. )
The fact that there was a clip in the rifle is solid proof that the rifle was a "throw down" gun that was intended to be linked to the patsy Lee Oswald.
I know that these facts clash with your beliefs but they are true facts....
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I have seen NO Alyea footage "showing" the Clip as you claim. If as You claim the Clip is: (1) "IN the magazine", and (2) "NOT Hanging Out of the magazine", how would it be visible in the Alyea footage?
If as You claim the Clip is: (1) "IN the magazine", and (2) "NOT Hanging Out of the magazine", how would it be visible in the Alyea footage?
Good Question, and thank you for asking...This is one of those cases in which one picture ( frame from Alyea's film) would be better than a thousand words.
You seem to understand that the rifle is designed to allow the ammo clip to simple drop out of the bottom of the rifle when the last live cartridge is stripped from the clip by the forward motion of the bolt. When the last cartridge in the clip is stripped from it there is nothing to retain the clip in the magazine ( the cartridges act as an integral part of the machine) and the clip simple falls out of the rifle's magazine.
If that opening at the bottom of the magazine is not in the down toward the floor position, naturally the clip can't fall from the aperture.
However a empty clip can easily be inserted into the aperture, and if the rifle is upside down or in it's side , or any position other than the normal firing position, gravity can't work on it and pull it from the aperture. When Detective Day picked up the rifle and examined it he never held it in the normal firing position with the aperture in the magazine down toward the floor. Thus the clip simple stayed in the rifle. However it was sliding around a bit as the rifle was examined ....and as Detective Day examined the rifle he turned the aperture toward Tom Alyea's camera and the camera recorded the clip just emerging from the aperture.. ( about 1/8 of in inch of the clip was protruding out of the aperture)
Long ago I was in the same boat that you're in now... I did not believe that there was a clip in the rifle when it was discovered....And I thought that this was an indication that the rifle had not been fired and used as the assassination weapon....
The fact is:.... That basic hypothesis is correct...That Carcano was NOT the murder weapon...and the clip was placed in the rifle with one live cartridge in it and then the bolt was shoved forward... but the bolt was NOT pushed down and latched....( Alyea's film confirms that the bolt is not latched down.) After that live round was stripped from the clip the rifle was placed on the floor ON IT'S RIGHT SIDE and the clip remained inside the magazine. But it was NOT NOT stuck or jammed... It simply was not given the opportunity to fall out of the rifle. However as Day handled the rifle and carried it he must have placed the aperture down at some pont and the clip slid further out of the magazine as can be seen in the photos that were snapped as he carried the carcano from the TSBD.
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If as You claim the Clip is: (1) "IN the magazine", and (2) "NOT Hanging Out of the magazine", how would it be visible in the Alyea footage?
Good Question, and thank you for asking...This is one of those cases in which one picture ( frame from Alyea's film) would be better than a thousand words.
You seem to understand that the rifle is designed to allow the ammo clip to simple drop out of the bottom of the rifle when the last live cartridge is stripped from the clip by the forward motion of the bolt. When the last cartridge in the clip is stripped from it there is nothing to retain the clip in the magazine ( the cartridges act as an integral part of the machine) and the clip simple falls out of the rifle's magazine.
If that opening at the bottom of the magazine is not in the down toward the floor position, naturally the clip can't fall from the aperture.
However a empty clip can easily be inserted into the aperture, and if the rifle is upside down or in it's side , or any position other than the normal firing position, gravity can't work on it and pull it from the aperture. When Detective Day picked up the rifle and examined it he never held it in the normal firing position with the aperture in the magazine down toward the floor. Thus the clip simple stayed in the rifle. However it was sliding around a bit as the rifle was examined ....and as Detective Day examined the rifle he turned the aperture toward Tom Alyea's camera and the camera recorded the clip just emerging from the aperture.. ( about 1/8 of in inch of the clip was protruding out of the aperture)
Long ago I was in the same boat that you're in now... I did not believe that there was a clip in the rifle when it was discovered....And I thought that this was an indication that the rifle had not been fired and used as the assassination weapon....
The fact is:.... That basic hypothesis is correct...That Carcano was NOT the murder weapon...and the clip was placed in the rifle with one live cartridge in it and then the bolt was shoved forward... but the bolt was NOT pushed down and latched....( Alyea's film confirms that the bolt is not latched down.) After that live round was stripped from the clip the rifle was placed on the floor ON IT'S RIGHT SIDE and the clip remained inside the magazine. But it was NOT NOT stuck or jammed... It simply was not given the opportunity to fall out of the rifle. However as Day handled the rifle and carried it he must have placed the aperture down at some pont and the clip slid further out of the magazine as can be seen in the photos that were snapped as he carried the carcano from the TSBD.
Mytton has previously posted a video of people firing a Carcano rifle while holding the rifle in an upright position with the rifle magazine pointed directly toward the ground. On occasion, the Empty Clip did Not fall completely out of the gun magazine and the Clip did dangle/hang part way out of and into the rifle magazine. Mytton showed Proof this problem with the Carcano Clip does on rare occasions occur.
The Alyea footage shows Fritz ejecting a live round from the Carcano. When Fritz worked the Carcano Bolt and Ejected the live round, the rifle was in an upright position with the Magazine pointed toward the ground. Gravity should have pulled the empty Clip out of the magazine or at the very least showed it hanging up as it was falling through the magazine toward the ground. There is Nothing hanging from the magazine before, during, and after Fritz ejected the live round.
My thought regarding the Disappearing/Appearing Clip is that it was discovered After the rifle was recovered and filmed/photographed between the boxes on the 6th Floor. The problem was that the Clip was recovered on the floor inside the TSBD in an area which did Not fit the 6th Floor Sniper's Nest & the alleged Oswald escape route down to the 2nd floor Lunch Room. Upon finding the Clip, Fritz/Lt Day had no choice but to place the empty clip back inside the Carcano rifle. This is why the Clip is visible hanging from the magazine as Lt. Day walks the streets of Dallas with the rifle dangling by its strap.
I find it hard to believe that absolutely no one connected to law enforcement that was inside the TSBD when the Carcano was discovered smelled the gun barrel of the rifle when it was discovered or while it was being examined/printed. Being this was an Active Crime Scene, knowing whether that rifle had recently been fired should have been of paramount importance to the Investigators at risk inside the building.
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Mytton has previously posted a video of people firing a Carcano rifle while holding the rifle in an upright position with the rifle magazine pointed directly toward the ground. On occasion, the Empty Clip did Not fall completely out of the gun magazine and the Clip did dangle/hang part way out of and into the rifle magazine. Mytton showed Proof this problem with the Carcano Clip does on rare occasions occur.
The Alyea footage shows Fritz ejecting a live round from the Carcano. When Fritz worked the Carcano Bolt and Ejected the live round, the rifle was in an upright position with the Magazine pointed toward the ground. Gravity should have pulled the empty Clip out of the magazine or at the very least showed it hanging up as it was falling through the magazine toward the ground. There is Nothing hanging from the magazine before, during, and after Fritz ejected the live round.
My thought regarding the Disappearing/Appearing Clip is that it was discovered After the rifle was recovered and filmed/photographed between the boxes on the 6th Floor. The problem was that the Clip was recovered on the floor inside the TSBD in an area which did Not fit the 6th Floor Sniper's Nest & the alleged Oswald escape route down to the 2nd floor Lunch Room. Upon finding the Clip, Fritz/Lt Day had no choice but to place the empty clip back inside the Carcano rifle. This is why the Clip is visible hanging from the magazine as Lt. Day walks the streets of Dallas with the rifle dangling by its strap.
I find it hard to believe that absolutely no one connected to law enforcement that was inside the TSBD when the Carcano was discovered smelled the gun barrel of the rifle when it was discovered or while it was being examined/printed. Being this was an Active Crime Scene, knowing whether that rifle had recently been fired should have been of paramount importance to the Investigators at risk inside the building.
Mytton has previously posted a video of people firing a Carcano rifle while holding the rifle in an upright position with the rifle magazine pointed directly toward the ground. On occasion, the Empty Clip did Not fall completely out of the gun magazine and the Clip did dangle/hang part way out of and into the rifle magazine. Mytton showed Proof this problem with the Carcano Clip does on rare occasions occur.
Mytton!!??.... I'm surprised at you....Mytton is the biggest flim flam man in the forum.... However, he does occasionally shoot himself in the foot when playing quick draw MacGraw.....
The brass clips work perfectly and they do not fail to drop out of the rifle....However, the steel clips do sometimes fail to drop free from a less than clean rifle....
The Alyea footage shows Fritz ejecting a live round from the Carcano. When Fritz worked the Carcano Bolt and Ejected the live round, the rifle was in an upright position with the Magazine pointed toward the ground. Gravity should have pulled the empty Clip out of the magazine or at the very least showed it hanging up as it was falling through the magazine toward the ground. There is Nothing hanging from the magazine before, during, and after Fritz ejected the live round.
the rifle was in an upright position with the Magazine pointed toward the ground
No... The rifle is on it's side and tilted with the barrel up, as Fritz operated the bolt....
My thought regarding the Disappearing/Appearing Clip is that it was discovered After the rifle was recovered and filmed/photographed between the boxes on the 6th Floor. The problem was that the Clip was recovered on the floor inside the TSBD in an area which did Not fit the 6th Floor Sniper's Nest & the alleged Oswald escape route down to the 2nd floor Lunch Room. Upon finding the Clip, Fritz/Lt Day had no choice but to place the empty clip back inside the Carcano rifle. This is why the Clip is visible hanging from the magazine as Lt. Day walks the streets of Dallas with the rifle dangling by its strap.
I find it hard to believe that absolutely no one connected to law enforcement that was inside the TSBD when the Carcano was discovered smelled the gun barrel of the rifle when it was discovered or while it was being examined/printed. Being this was an Active Crime Scene, knowing whether that rifle had recently been fired should have been of paramount importance to the Investigators at risk inside the building.
Upon finding the Clip, Fritz/Lt Day had no choice but to place the empty clip back inside the Carcano rifle.
Day was so ignorant and inept that he thought the Carcano was a "LEVER ACTION" rifle....He wouldn't have known where to put the clip ...... And They would not have needed to be devious or deceptive....Day could simply have explained that Officer X had found the clip on the floor next to the spent shells and or near the SE corner window and had picked it up before he realized that it was a rifle ammo clip and valuable evidence....When it became apparent that the clip was evidence the officer gave the clip to Lt Day and explained how he had come into possession of it.
I find it hard to believe that absolutely no one connected to law enforcement that was inside the TSBD when the Carcano was discovered smelled the gun barrel of the rifle when it was discovered or while it was being examined/printed.
"Law Enforcement" in this case were conspirators.... (At least the KEY law enforcement officers were involved)
Fritz was not stupid....If he or Day had sniffed the rifle they would have called attention to the FACT that the rifle did not reek of burned gunpowder.... And that would have alerted other observers like Tom Alyea to the fact that the rifle had not been fired less than an hour prior to it's discovery.....And they sure as hell didn't want that fact exposed....
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Again, You are making the assumption that Fritz did Not handle the Rifle prior to Alyea filming it being removed from between the boxes. Fritz handled the shell casings inside the sniper's nest Before Alyea had access to it. Why would he deviate from this M.O. with regard to the rifle? He didn't. People in this line of work are 1 Thing above All else. Consistent
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Again, You are making the assumption that Fritz did Not handle the Rifle prior to Alyea filming it being removed from between the boxes. Fritz handled the shell casings inside the sniper's nest Before Alyea had access to it. Why would he deviate from this M.O. with regard to the rifle? He didn't. People in this line of work are 1 Thing above All else. Consistent
Alyea filming it being removed from between the boxes.
Nobody reported Fritz touching the rifle prior to Day lifting it FROM THE FLOOR by the leather sling
Please take a closer look.... The rifle is lying on it's right side with the sling up so that Day simply grabs the sling and lifts the rifle....
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Again, You are making the assumption that Fritz did Not handle the Rifle prior to Alyea filming it being removed from between the boxes. Fritz handled the shell casings inside the sniper's nest Before Alyea had access to it. Why would he deviate from this M.O. with regard to the rifle? He didn't. People in this line of work are 1 Thing above All else. Consistent
Royell there was no opportunity for Fritz to have touched the rifle....There were dozens of officers in the area and civilian reporters plus TSBD employees who Fritz could not control and force them to keep their mouths shut....
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Royell there was no opportunity for Fritz to have touched the rifle....There were dozens of officers in the area and civilian reporters plus TSBD employees who Fritz could not control and force them to keep their mouths shut....
He didn't need an opportunity, the opportunity apparently was not needed for the alleged mix-up that started the issue of the gun to begin with. It is not my fault Cronkite, Paul Harvey etc. say Mauser Mauser Mauser and it isn't their fault. So by using the logic that it would be impossible for Fritz to do these things with so many people around interesting when taking into consideration, the whole world heard the name Mauser 8000 times and over a period of time. Do we need to go back and count how many times Mauser was said or communicated through media until it changed to a cheesy weapon which is about as lethal as two-inch plastic toy gun a child could get free out of a Perkin's wishing well?
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He didn't need an opportunity, the opportunity apparently was not needed for the alleged mix-up that started the issue of the gun to begin with. It is not my fault Cronkite, Paul Harvey etc. say Mauser Mauser Mauser and it isn't their fault. So by using the logic that it would be impossible for Fritz to do these things with so many people around interesting when taking into consideration, the whole world heard the name Mauser 8000 times and over a period of time. Do we need to go back and count how many times Mauser was said or communicated through media until it changed to a cheesy weapon which is about as lethal as two-inch plastic toy gun a child could get free out of a Perkin's wishing well?
Pete, I'm sorry to inform you that you are doomed to wander endlessly in the swamp ...Simply because you're to stubborn to take the clearly obvious path. Perhaps you don't truly want to know the truth, so you ignore the path that will lead you to it.
We have photo graphs that clearly show that the rifle that was CAREFULLY HIDDEN beneath heavy boxes of books was a model 91 /38 Mannlicher Carcano and it most certainly was NOT a Mauser....
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Royell there was no opportunity for Fritz to have touched the rifle....There were dozens of officers in the area and civilian reporters plus TSBD employees who Fritz could not control and force them to keep their mouths shut....
You are not up-to-speed as to how the search of the 6th floor & the TSBD was conducted. Fritz ordered Law Enforcement including Alyea OFF of the 6th Floor and directed them elsewhere inside the TSBD to continue their search. It was AFTER they returned to the 6th floor that the rifle was discovered. Your claim as to there being "no opportunity" for Fritz to monkey around with the rifle is simply Not True. Please review how the search of the 6th Floor & the TSBD on the whole was conducted. Your opinion(s) are currently based on a Limited amount of information.
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You are not up-to-speed as to how the search of the 6th floor & the TSBD was conducted. Fritz ordered Law Enforcement including Alyea OFF of the 6th Floor and directed them elsewhere inside the TSBD to continue their search. It was AFTER they returned to the 6th floor that the rifle was discovered. Your claim as to there being "no opportunity" for Fritz to monkey around with the rifle is simply Not True. Please review how the search of the 6th Floor & the TSBD on the whole was conducted. Your opinion(s) are currently based on a Limited amount of information.
Royell....WHEN did Captain Fritz arrive at the TSBD?? I'm certain that you will find that Fritz arrived AFTER the spent shells were discovered...(1:06) The only floor that was searched after those spent shells were found was the sixth floor. ...and the rifle was found at 1:22 ....Nobody "monkeyed around" with the rifle after Boone and Weitzman discovered it at 1:22 PM....
Lt Day was the first, and only, person to touch the rifle until Fitz helped him open the bolt of the rifle....
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He didn't need an opportunity, the opportunity apparently was not needed for the alleged mix-up that started the issue of the gun to begin with. It is not my fault Cronkite, Paul Harvey etc. say Mauser Mauser Mauser and it isn't their fault. So by using the logic that it would be impossible for Fritz to do these things with so many people around interesting when taking into consideration, the whole world heard the name Mauser 8000 times and over a period of time. Do we need to go back and count how many times Mauser was said or communicated through media until it changed to a cheesy weapon which is about as lethal as two-inch plastic toy gun a child could get free out of a Perkin's wishing well?
a cheesy weapon which is about as lethal as two-inch plastic toy gun a child could get free out of a Perkin's wishing well
Are you talking about the rifle used in 9 wars, including I & II
If someone ever points an MC at you, I suggest you duck..
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Royell....WHEN did Captain Fritz arrive at the TSBD?? I'm certain that you will find that Fritz arrived AFTER the spent shells were discovered...(1:06) The only floor that was searched after those spent shells were found was the sixth floor. ...and the rifle was found at 1:22 ....Nobody "monkeyed around" with the rifle after Boone and Weitzman discovered it at 1:22 PM....
Lt Day was the first, and only, person to touch the rifle until Fitz helped him open the bolt of the rifle....
You are attempting to dance around the Fact you were unaware that Fritz Ordered the 6th floor be vacated PRIOR to the alleged rifle discovery. Your claiming the " The ONLY floor that was searched after those spent shells were found was the sixth floor" is also Horribly Wrong. How on earth do you think that Alyea claimed the Pop Bottle was actually found on the 5th Floor? You need to do some research. Your opinions are currently formed on a limited knowledge as to how the search of the TSBD was conducted.
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You are attempting to dance around the Fact you were unaware that Fritz Ordered the 6th floor be vacated PRIOR to the alleged rifle discovery. Your claiming the " The ONLY floor that was searched after those spent shells were found was the sixth floor" is also Horribly Wrong. How on earth do you think that Alyea claimed the Pop Bottle was actually found on the 5th Floor? You need to do some research. Your opinions are currently formed on a limited knowledge as to how the search of the TSBD was conducted.
Royell, I will only say...You are way off base....And I can't guess why you're so desperately trying to discredit what is clearly visible in Tom Alyea's film, in saying that the rifle was "monkeyed with" before Boone and Weitzman discovered it by shining powerful flashlights into the dark cave where the rifle had obviously been carefully hidden by stacking heavy boks of books around and over it......
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You are attempting to dance around the Fact you were unaware that Fritz Ordered the 6th floor be vacated PRIOR to the alleged rifle discovery. Your claiming the " The ONLY floor that was searched after those spent shells were found was the sixth floor" is also Horribly Wrong. How on earth do you think that Alyea claimed the Pop Bottle was actually found on the 5th Floor? You need to do some research. Your opinions are currently formed on a limited knowledge as to how the search of the TSBD was conducted.
You are attempting to dance around the Fact you were unaware that Fritz Ordered the 6th floor be vacated PRIOR to the alleged rifle discovery. Your claiming the " The ONLY floor that was searched after those spent shells were found was the sixth floor" is also Horribly Wrong.
Royell, What difference does it make if Fritz wanted the searched started on the roof and then work downward?....
Here's a excerpt from an interview with Alyea....I'm primarily focusing on the fact that the rifle was NOT touched BEFORE Detective Day picked it up.... ( Not the Mauser BS)
Q - Was the weapon identified at first as a Mauser or not? This fact is of importance because it had led to many speculations or assumptions for decades. If true, can you tell me how this weapon became an Italian Mannlicher Carcano shortly after? Without to be involved in controversy, this brutal changing discredited at the time the people in charge of the inquiery.
TOM ALYEA ANSWERS......
No, the rifle was not first identified as a Mauser. I was only about two meters away and I heard no reference to a Mauser. Capt. Fritz testified that he heard no reference to the rifle being a Mauser. It was never touched. I, along with Capt. Fritz and other officers in our search team stayed at this location until the Crime Lab arrived and Lt. Day pulled the rifle from under the overhanging boxes. A few seconds after Lt. Day started dusting the rifle, he read the inscription on the rifle and announced that it was made in Italy. He did not refer to it as a Mannlicher Carcano. The name Mannlicher Carcano did not appear on the rifle. I think this was established later at police headquarters. The inscription Made in Italy and the caliber of the rifle was stamped on it. It is obvious that the relentless pursuit to establish the original rifle as a Mauser is one of the many false claims promoted by the conspiracy book authors.
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Pete, I'm sorry to inform you that you are doomed to wander endlessly in the swamp ...Simply because you're to stubborn to take the clearly obvious path. Perhaps you don't truly want to know the truth, so you ignore the path that will lead you to it.
We have photo graphs that clearly show that the rifle that was CAREFULLY HIDDEN beneath heavy boxes of books was a model 91 /38 Mannlicher Carcano and it most certainly was NOT a Mauser....
Actually, you are being lazy. For instance, suggesting "we have photographs.. clearly shows ...carefully hidden" Is that your argument? Because if it is, and you want to get out of jury duty, it will not be a problem. By the way "carefully hidden" is an alleged action so, would you then say the weapon was "carefully discovered"? What do you mean carefully hidden? Do you know when the name Mauser became an issue? Maybe you could "carefully" explain how the name Mauser became apart of the story. And if you think it was a mixed up by "a passing reporter" then it would not be unreasonable to say "Walt if someone told you to jump off a bridge....you clearly would " and would it be too much to say "you carefully would"
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Royell there was no opportunity for Fritz to have touched the rifle....There were dozens of officers in the area and civilian reporters plus TSBD employees who Fritz could not control and force them to keep their mouths shut....
Bump. The above shows you previously did Not Know that Fritz ordered law enforcement off of the 6th floor and thereby had the Opportunity to touch the rifle. Stop the BS: and do your research. Concocting theories without going to the trouble to gather ALL the facts reflects poorly on your theories in other areas of this case.
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Actually, you are being lazy. For instance, suggesting "we have photographs.. clearly shows ...carefully hidden" Is that your argument? Because if it is, and you want to get out of jury duty, it will not be a problem. By the way "carefully hidden" is an alleged action so, would you then say the weapon was "carefully discovered"? What do you mean carefully hidden? Do you know when the name Mauser became an issue? Maybe you could "carefully" explain how the name Mauser became apart of the story. And if you think it was a mixed up by "a passing reporter" then it would not be unreasonable to say "Walt if someone told you to jump off a bridge....you clearly would " and would it be too much to say "you carefully would"
Peter I've explained my position so many times, I don't feel I need to do it again for a newbe...
What do you mean carefully hidden?
Oh Boy..sigh.. The rifle was hidden with care.... It was placed beneath a pallet of heavy boxes of books, which was beside another stack of books so the rifle was ON THE FLOOR at the bottom of a chasm then the chasm was closed at the top by placing boxes of books across the gap. Which placed the rifle at the bottom of a dark cave....
Boone said that he moved a box and shined his flashlight down into the cave and saw a tiny bit of the butt of of the rifle .
At the same time that Boone was looking down into the cave...Seymour Weitzman was down on the floor a few feet east of Boone and he looked under the pallet and saw the rifle lying on the floor.
Now do you understand what "carefully hidden" means?
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Bump. The above shows you previously did Not Know that Fritz ordered law enforcement off of the 6th floor and thereby had the Opportunity to touch the rifle. Stop the BS: and do your research. Concocting theories without going to the trouble to gather ALL the facts reflects poorly on your theories in other areas of this case.
The above shows you previously did Not Know that Fritz ordered law enforcement off of the 6th floor and thereby had the Opportunity to touch the rifle.
Is that what the important point? I assure you I know this case very well.... But that's not the point.
The point is:... Nobody touched the rifle AFTER Boone discovered it and before Detective Day picked it up....
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Actually, you are being lazy. For instance, suggesting "we have photographs.. clearly shows ...carefully hidden" Is that your argument? Because if it is, and you want to get out of jury duty, it will not be a problem. By the way "carefully hidden" is an alleged action so, would you then say the weapon was "carefully discovered"? What do you mean carefully hidden? Do you know when the name Mauser became an issue? Maybe you could "carefully" explain how the name Mauser became apart of the story. And if you think it was a mixed up by "a passing reporter" then it would not be unreasonable to say "Walt if someone told you to jump off a bridge....you clearly would " and would it be too much to say "you carefully would"
Was the name Mauser really ever an issue , except for in the minds of a few conspiracy believers? Oh sure, a couple of Sheriffs initially reported that the rifle was a Mauser but they both later admitted that they had been mistaken. Mauser wasn't the only false name thrown around in the first day or two.
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Was the name Mauser really ever an issue , except for in the minds of a few conspiracy believers? Oh sure, a couple of Sheriffs initially reported that the rifle was a Mauser but they both later admitted that they had been mistaken. Mauser wasn't the only false name thrown around in the first day or two.
Listen to yourself, maybe, just maybe you might learn something. Yes, and by listening to yourself. You act as though it is you who has the keen observation of fine detail yet suggests that the name Mauser was purposely thrown around by conspiracy believers though it was planted by someone else whether intentional or not. This is exactly what feeds a conspiracy. It is too hard for you to answer so you hit default. In other words, you start falling over yourself and explain away "Oh sure a couple of Sheriffs initially reported that the rifle was a Mauser but they both later admitted that they had been mistaken."
So Tim the saying "Just move along, there's nothing to see here" is one you know well? Too funny
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Was the name Mauser really ever an issue , except for in the minds of a few conspiracy believers? Oh sure, a couple of Sheriffs initially reported that the rifle was a Mauser but they both later admitted that they had been mistaken. Mauser wasn't the only false name thrown around in the first day or two.
The description "Mauser" was: (1) Used, (2) Heard, (3) Documented on Paper.
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Listen to yourself, maybe, just maybe you might learn something. Yes, and by listening to yourself. You act as though it is you who has the keen observation of fine detail yet suggests that the name Mauser was purposely thrown around by conspiracy believers though it was planted by someone else whether intentional or not. This is exactly what feeds a conspiracy. It is too hard for you to answer so you hit default. In other words, you start falling over yourself and explain away "Oh sure a couple of Sheriffs initially reported that the rifle was a Mauser but they both later admitted that they had been mistaken."
So Tim the saying "Just move along, there's nothing to see here" is one you know well? Too funny
Maybe you should listen to yourself, because I can't understand what you're saying. What exactly is your take on the Mauser? Was the rifle discovered on the sixth floor a Mauser or was it an Italian Carcano?
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Maybe you should listen to yourself, because I can't understand what you're saying. What exactly is your take on the Mauser? Was the rifle discovered on the sixth floor a Mauser or was it an Italian Carcano?
What do the pretty pictures show?
Let's ignore every reference to the rifle and simply LOOK at the pretty pictures.... It doesn't take a genius to compare the images to photos of a model 91/38 Carcano short rifle, and a 7.65 Argentine mauser carbine, and SEE with your own eyes ....which weapon the TSBD rifle matches.
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Thanx Walt..pardon my ignorance...is that nearby?
would I see either one if I was looking at the rifle like this ...
(https://farm2.staticflickr.com/1810/28295356467_9cc38e7c33_b.jpg)
Probably not Michael ....And Roger Craig never got that close to the rifle. If he had he probably would have needed a magnifying glass to read small the stamping on the rifle.
Michael you're a smart guy..... don't handicap yourself by believing something that is so easily shown to be a lie.
Personally... I sincerely wish Roger Craig's words could be taken without question. But alas....that is not the case.
"Never got that close" Really? So you know how close Craig was to the rifle? Careful how you answer
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"Never got that close" Really? So you know how close Craig was to the rifle? Careful how you answer
Peter, You can answer the question for yourself....If you've heard Craig describe the action of the police on the sixth floor after the rifle was discovered in the beam of Boone's powerful flashlight.
Craig said that nobody got near the rifle or touched it before Day picked it up.... Well nobody but Day and Fritz got near enough to read any stamping on the rifle AFTER Day picked it up .... There is a film that shows Roger Craig in the background as Day And Fritz are examining the rifle...I'd guess that Craig was at least six feet away at the time and there were boxes of books between him and Fritz....
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There were all kinds of rumors and misinformation in the first hours after the coup d e'tat....
Photos and films show that the rifle was a Mannlicher Carcano....
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Peter, You can answer the question for yourself....If you've heard Craig describe the action of the police on the sixth floor after the rifle was discovered in the beam of Boone's powerful flashlight.
Craig said that nobody got near the rifle or touched it before Day picked it up.... Well nobody but Day and Fritz got near enough to read any stamping on the rifle AFTER Day picked it up .... There is a film that shows Roger Craig in the background as Day And Fritz are examining the rifle...I'd guess that Craig was at least six feet away at the time and there were boxes of books between him and Fritz....
Walt, Craig did not say anything like "nobody got near it"
Craig said "but we didn't touch it until Capt. Fritz and Lt. Day ...got there"
Walt said, "well nobody but Day and Fritz got near enough to read any stamping on the rifle AFTER Day picked it up"
I have watched the footage and I believe many would agree on what it shows, but it is obvious that it does not show everything.
As a matter of fact, Walt, we see Day and Fritz examining the gun from a few different angles. Sure, I see Craig but it is not clear
because we're watching clips, cuts, close-ups etc and as far as the few moments showing Day and Fritz examining the gun very closely where's the clip.
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Alyea filming it being removed from between the boxes.
Nobody reported Fritz touching the rifle prior to Day lifting it FROM THE FLOOR by the leather sling
Please take a closer look.... The rifle is lying on it's right side with the sling up so that Day simply grabs the sling and lifts the rifle....
Walt, this one I always forget about, but who is the cracker at the very beginning of the video who is looking out the window with a rifle in his left-hand turns to go directly opposite of the window he just had stuck his head. He looks down as he turns to go between some boxes but stutter-steps as he notices the camera while at the same time changes his direction toward the camera.
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Walt, Craig did not say anything like "nobody got near it"
Craig said "but we didn't touch it until Capt. Fritz and Lt. Day ...got there"
Walt said, "well nobody but Day and Fritz got near enough to read any stamping on the rifle AFTER Day picked it up"
I have watched the footage and I believe many would agree on what it shows, but it is obvious that it does not show everything.
As a matter of fact, Walt, we see Day and Fritz examining the gun from a few different angles. Sure, I see Craig but it is not clear
because we're watching clips, cuts, close-ups etc and as far as the few moments showing Day and Fritz examining the gun very closely where's the clip.
Walter consistently offers his Opinions as statements of Fact. This results in confusing whatever issue is under discussion in addition to misinforming those that do Not know the details of this case. A page ago on this thread he was claiming that Fritz never had the opportunity to monkey around with the rifle. I had to set him straight as to his claim being absolute BS: Now, you are having to do likewise regarding Craig and his proximity to the rifle. If that Clip had hung-up inside the rifle it would have been rattling around as Lt Day and Fritz spun the rifle around like a top as they examined it, ejected the live round, and dusted it for prints. No images show the clip hanging from the rifle magazine until Lt. Day had exited the TSBD and was strolling down Elm St carrying the rifle by its' strap. This is a FACT.
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Walt, this one I always forget about, but who is the cracker at the very beginning of the video who is looking out the window with a rifle in his left-hand turns to go directly opposite of the window he just had stuck his head. He looks down as he turns to go between some boxes but stutter-steps as he notices the camera while at the same time changes his direction toward the camera.
Can't remember the detectives name right now....But that Alyea Footage was taken on the fifth floor. The detectve is at the WEST END window... Which is interesting because one of the early film clips is also focused on that west end window...The reporter says something like "that's the window there" as the camera shows the window.
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If that Clip had hung-up inside the rifle it would have been rattling around as Lt Day and Fritz spun the rifle around like a top as they examined it, ejected the live round, and dusted it for prints.
Why would it have been rattling around?
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Why would it have been rattling around?
It was 'spinning like a top' according to Waldo.
;)
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Can't remember the detectives name right now....But that Alyea Footage was taken on the fifth floor. The detectve is at the WEST END window... Which is interesting because one of the early film clips is also focused on that west end window...The reporter says something like "that's the window there" as the camera shows the window.
Will call him guilty, Walt.
Now back to the important part, the gun in his left hand. You know, it's a long object.
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Why would it have been rattling around?
When Empty, the Clip is supposed to Immediately Fall Down and Out of the rifle magazine. The Clip Not being visible dangling from the magazine means: (1) It is Loose/Free inside the weapon, or (2) Completely Absent/Missing from the weapon.
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It was 'spinning like a top' according to Waldo.
;)
I recall Walt spending an enormous amount of time arguing that the clip could not be seen in any of the photos and film footage taken inside of the TSBD, and that meant it had in fact fallen out when Fritz operated the bolt and "ejected" the unspent round.
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When Empty, the Clip is supposed to Immediately Fall Down and Out of the rifle magazine. The Clip Not being visible dangling from the magazine means: (1) It is Loose/Free inside the weapon, or (2) Completely Absent/Missing from the weapon.
The clips do not always do what they're supposed to. They sometimes stick and have to be forced out by hand. Oswald's was like that. Being loose/free inside the weapon does not mean that it was free to move side to side enough to rattle around.
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When Empty, the Clip is supposed to Immediately Fall Down and Out of the rifle magazine. The Clip Not being visible dangling from the magazine means: (1) It is Loose/Free inside the weapon, or (2) Completely Absent/Missing from the weapon.
The BRASS clip does NOT rattle around in the magazine ...Brass is non ferrous and can be compared to copper ...it simply doesn't clink or rattle like a ferrous metal...
I just placed an empty brass clip in a carcano and I shook it, in an effort to make the clip rattle... It did not...Hoever something interesting happened...The clip slipped down to the exact point that the clip is seen in Alyea's film,... which is about 1/8 of an inch of the clip visible in the magazine....
Believe it or not....
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a cheesy weapon which is about as lethal as two-inch plastic toy gun a child could get free out of a Perkin's wishing well
Are you talking about the rifle used in 9 wars, including I & II
If someone ever points an MC at you, I suggest you duck..
The gun could be used for a prop in a play at best. And if you're saying it was used to kill Kennedy, wait a second. Think of the most outrageous theory you have heard, how about the one where the Limo Driver, Agent Greer, is the Assasin. As silly as that sounds, it's not as silly as being told it was some Italian gun parts cobbled together then used by LHO. A reasonable person would not believe either as the truth.
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The clips do not always do what they're supposed to. They sometimes stick and have to be forced out by hand. Oswald's was like that. Being loose/free inside the weapon does not mean that it was free to move side to side enough to rattle around.
If the clip were "LOOSE/FREE" inside the weapon, by definition this means it would Rattle. There has to be some room/space inside the magazine for the clip to Drop/Fall down and out of the weapon. This room/space would explain the rattle of a "loose/free" clip inside the weapon. When a clip has to be "forced out" by hand", it is partially visible hanging from the magazine. This is what we see in the Image of Lt Day walking down Elm St after exiting the TSBD vs there being No Clip visible hanging from the magazine while the rifle was inside the TSBD.
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If the clip were "LOOSE/FREE" inside the weapon, by definition this means it would Rattle.
Nonsense.
There has to be some room/space inside the magazine for the clip to Drop/Fall down and out of the weapon. This room/space would explain the rattle of a "loose/free" clip inside the weapon. When a clip has to be "forced out" by hand", it is partially visible hanging from the magazine. This is what we see in the Image of Lt Day walking down Elm St after exiting the TSBD vs there being No Clip visible hanging from the magazine while the rifle was inside the TSBD.
The fact that the clip can be seen protruding from the rifle does not mean that it had been forced out by hand. It had worked it's way out due the handling of it by Day.
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Nonsense.
The fact that the clip can be seen protruding from the rifle does not mean that it had been forced out by hand. It had worked it's way out due the handling of it by Day.
If the Carcano clip is seen protruding from the rifle bottom, it needs to be dislodged/extracted by hand. The opening at the bottom of the rifle is Wider than the Clip. What do you think is holding the Clip inside a space that is wider than it is? It is jammed as Mytton's You Tube visual aide demonstrated.
If the clip Worked its' way out of the rifle "due to the handling of it by Day", then the Clip would have been Rattling around inside the weapon as I stated earlier. You disputed the "rattling" at that time. Now, you are trumpeting this. You are inconsistently grasping at straws due to being unfamiliar with the operation of the rifle.
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If the Carcano clip is seen protruding from the rifle bottom, it needs to be dislodged/extracted by hand. The opening at the bottom of the rifle is Wider than the Clip. What do you think is holding the Clip inside a space that is wider than it is? It is jammed as Mytton's You Tube visual aide demonstrated.
If the clip Worked its' way out of the rifle "due to the handling of it by Day", then the Clip would have been Rattling around inside the weapon as I stated earlier. You disputed the "rattling" at that time. Now, you are trumpeting this. You are inconsistently grasping at straws due to being unfamiliar with the operation of the rifle.
I'm still disputing the rattling. And I'm not being inconsistent at all. The only possible rattling that comes to mind right now is that going on between yours. The clip doesn't have to do any rattling at all in order to slowly slide out of the bottom of the rifle.
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The clips do not always do what they're supposed to. They sometimes stick and have to be forced out by hand. Oswald's was like that. Being loose/free inside the weapon does not mean that it was free to move side to side enough to rattle around.
Since you allowed yourself to entertain us with your explanation for the missing clip, or the reappearing clip or...why don't we just call it the "magical clip"?( I got the idea from that damn "magical bullet theory", can you believe it?)
Tim, you are exactly right about those uncooperative clips. Clearly, you can not believe a lone gunman with one gun is responsible for JFK'S death, isn't that right?
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Since you allowed yourself to entertain us with your explanation for the missing clip, or the reappearing clip or...why don't we just call it the "magical clip"?( I got the idea from that damn "magical bullet theory", can you believe it?)
WOW! Brilliant. You can call them the "magical clip" and the "magical bullet theory". I'll stick with what they really are: The brass clip from Oswald's rifle and the single bullet of the single bullet theory. There is nothing magical about either of them.
Tim, you are exactly right about those uncooperative clips. Clearly, you can not believe a lone gunman with one gun is responsible for JFK'S death, isn't that right?
Why would I not believe a lone gunman with one gun was responsible for JFK'S death, when the evidence overwhelmingly establishes that he was?
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The gun could be used for a prop in a play at best. And if you're saying it was used to kill Kennedy, wait a second. Think of the most outrageous theory you have heard, how about the one where the Limo Driver, Agent Greer, is the Assasin. As silly as that sounds, it's not as silly as being told it was some Italian gun parts cobbled together then used by LHO. A reasonable person would not believe either as the truth.
Referring to the Mannlicher Carcano with the serial number c 2766...
The gun could be used for a prop in a play at best.
That's right on the money...And that's what De M and Lee O intended to use it for, when they ordered it from Kleins...
Lee used it in the BY photo CE 133A to make himself appear to be a well armed communist revolutionary in the image of Fidel Castro ( Castro frequently was photographed while holding a rifle)
And he left it beneath a pile of brush after a bullet was fired through Walker's window...He intended for the police dogs to find the rifle and then the police could easily have traced that unusual rifle to him..... And when they visited his apartment They would have found the blue note book that was full of information, which included the photos of him holding the carcano, Walker's house, the vicinity of Walker's house, Bus schedules and maps of the area, and probably the note which instructed Marina what she should do if he had been captured or killed. And of course Lee would have been on his way to Cuba to escape prosecution .
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WOW! Brilliant. You can call them the "magical clip" and the "magical bullet theory". I'll stick with what they really are: The brass clip from Oswald's rifle and the single bullet of the single bullet theory. There is nothing magical about either of them.
Why would I not believe a lone gunman with one gun was responsible for JFK'S death, when the evidence overwhelmingly establishes that he was?
Too many inconsistencies surrounding the weapon, as far as Oswald whereabouts we all can agree he was in the building and even the at certain locations, but unfortunately, not at precise times except, of course, before and after Some people believe Oswald + gun +sixth-floor=guilty and some should, but only because the explanation for the crime benefits from Oswald never receiving an opportunity to a defense even in the short period of time between Oswald's arrest and Oswald's death no tape recording or notes of his interrogation. Pretty basic stuff. The case would have been thrown out. Take Oswald + gun, take any one of your choosing + the Carcano, for that matter, and then replicate the shots fired. You can't, lying CBS can't, etc. etc. Not even close
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Too many inconsistencies surrounding the weapon, as far as Oswald whereabouts we all can agree he was in the building and even the at certain locations, but unfortunately, not at precise times except, of course, before and after Some people believe Oswald + gun +sixth-floor=guilty and some should, but only because the explanation for the crime benefits from Oswald never receiving an opportunity to a defense even in the short period of time between Oswald's arrest and Oswald's death no tape recording or notes of his interrogation. Pretty basic stuff. The case would have been thrown out. Take Oswald + gun, take any one of your choosing + the Carcano, for that matter, and then replicate the shots fired. You can't, lying CBS can't, etc. etc. Not even close
What are the inconsistencies surrounding the weapon? As far as replicating the shots, it's easily done. Three shots in 8.7 seconds with one of them being a direct hit on the target. That target being the head. You say that CBS can't but what do you mean by that? Did they try to replicate the shots and fail to do so? And what exactly were the shots that they were trying to replicate?
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What are the inconsistencies surrounding the weapon? As far as replicating the shots, it's easily done. Three shots in 8.7 seconds with one of them being a direct hit on the target. That target being the head. You say that CBS can't but what do you mean by that? Did they try to replicate the shots and fail to do so? And what exactly were the shots that they were trying to replicate?
What do you mean what do I mean?
You know exactly what I mean. One time did a person fire fast enough, once with speed but accuracy was missing and this among several attempts that failed. Of course, you can make the rules up as you go along, it's learned behavior. Why not say Annie Oakley did it? At least it's creative, but to roll over at every turn for some legit evidence which is always followed by tainted or missing evidence?
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What are the inconsistencies surrounding the weapon? As far as replicating the shots, it's easily done. Three shots in 8.7 seconds with one of them being a direct hit on the target. That target being the head. You say that CBS can't but what do you mean by that? Did they try to replicate the shots and fail to do so? And what exactly were the shots that they were trying to replicate?
"Easily Done" ?? When has anyone, anywhere, at Any point in time actually Replicated the Magic Bullet shot? Even the Hokey JFK Specials have that bullet flying into/bouncing off of the dash board rendering a slug that is beat to hell.
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Referring to the Mannlicher Carcano with the serial number c 2766...
The gun could be used for a prop in a play at best.
That's right on the money...And that's what De M and Lee O intended to use it for, when they ordered it from Kleins...
Lee used it in the BY photo CE 133A to make himself appear to be a well armed communist revolutionary in the image of Fidel Castro ( Castro frequently was photographed while holding a rifle)
And he left it beneath a pile of brush after a bullet was fired through Walker's window...He intended for the police dogs to find the rifle and then the police could easily have traced that unusual rifle to him..... And when they visited his apartment They would have found the blue note book that was full of information, which included the photos of him holding the carcano, Walker's house, the vicinity of Walker's house, Bus schedules and maps of the area, and probably the note which instructed Marina what she should do if he had been captured or killed. And of course Lee would have been on his way to Cuba to escape prosecution .
Walt, the whole case is flimsy. I don't have to prove anything because I don't claim to know who did it but you do?
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Walt, the whole case is flimsy. I don't have to prove anything because I don't claim to know who did it but you do?
I don't have to prove anything because I don't claim to know who did it but you do?
Yes as a matter of fact ...I do.... But do I have to prove the obvious?
It is universally accepted that the sun rises in the east every morning.....How can I prove that the sun rises in the east every morning? When in a strict sense it does not "rise" (like a balloon floating up) at all.
The sun merely emerges from below the horizon in the direction that is universally accepted as EAST.....I'm sure that you will not dispute this information, even though I can't prove it.... And at one time centuries ago I could have been executed for entertaining or openly speaking about such heresy.
The same reasoning applies to the coup d e'tat..... The "church" ( US government) simply doesn't want the peasants ( LBJ called us pissants) to know the truth.
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I don't have to prove anything because I don't claim to know who did it but you do?
Yes as a matter of fact ...I do.... But do I have to prove the obvious?
It is universally accepted that the sun rises in the east every morning.....How can I prove that the sun rises in the east every morning? When in a strict sense it does not "rise" (like a balloon floating up) at all.
The sun merely emerges from below the horizon in the direction that is universally accepted as EAST.....I'm sure that you will not dispute this information, even though I can't prove it.... And at one time centuries ago I could have been executed for entertaining or openly speaking about such heresy.
The same reasoning applies to the coup d e'tat..... The "church" ( US government) simply doesn't want the peasants ( LBJ called us pissants) to know the truth.
Walter - Why not just admit you are offering an Opinion? You look silly going into this klutzy Mr Bojangles routine.
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Walter - Why not just admit you are offering an Opinion? You look silly going into this klutzy Mr Bojangles routine.
OK...In My opinion, Lee Oswald was simply a patsy....He was set up to take the blame. He was immediately lynched and then cast as a lunatic who murdered President Kennedy for no reason at all.
In my opinion this coup d e'tat could only have been accomplished by powerful men conspiring at the very highest level of the government in power AFTER the coup d e'tat.
Can I prove it...Don't be silly....
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I don't have to prove anything because I don't claim to know who did it but you do?
Yes as a matter of fact ...I do.... But do I have to prove the obvious?
It is universally accepted that the sun rises in the east every morning.....How can I prove that the sun rises in the east every morning? When in a strict sense it does not "rise" (like a balloon floating up) at all.
The sun merely emerges from below the horizon in the direction that is universally accepted as EAST.....I'm sure that you will not dispute this information, even though I can't prove it.... And at one time centuries ago I could have been executed for entertaining or openly speaking about such heresy.
The same reasoning applies to the coup d e'tat..... The "church" ( US government) simply doesn't want the peasants ( LBJ called us pissants) to know the truth.
Walt, LHO was in the building. WOW! That is brilliant That is all a court would ever accept
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Walt, LHO was in the building. WOW! That is brilliant That is all a court would ever accept
LHO was in the building. WOW!
Yes, Getting Lee the job in the TSBD was the key factor in advancing the plot. And we now know that the major problem was getting Lee to actually go to the TSBD and apply for a job.... We now know that a job was there waiting for him and all that was required was that he go there and apply.
And personally I suspect that Lee thought that he was working undercover for the FBI who wanted information about the activities of Joe Molina who worked in the TSBD and was the leader of The American GI Forum, an organization that JE Hoover thought was a communist front organization.
At any rate Ruth Paine , who we now know was an FBI informer sent Lee to the TSBD to talk to Roy Truly. And Roy Truly hired Lee Oswald immediately even though the rush season was in the past, and Truly was using many of his men in projects other than processing school books .
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LHO was in the building. WOW!
Yes, Getting Lee the job in the TSBD was the key factor in advancing the plot. And we now know that the major problem was getting Lee to actually go to the TSBD and apply for a job.... We now know that a job was there waiting for him and all that was required was that he go there and apply.
And personally I suspect that Lee thought that he was working undercover for the FBI who wanted information about the activities of Joe Molina who worked in the TSBD and was the leader of The American GI Forum, an organization that JE Hoover thought was a communist front organization.
At any rate Ruth Paine , who we now know was an FBI informer sent Lee to the TSBD to talk to Roy Truly. And Roy Truly hired Lee Oswald immediately even though the rush season was in the past, and Truly was using many of his men in projects other than processing school books .
Lee thought that he was working undercover for the FBI who wanted information about the activities of Joe Molina who worked in the TSBD and was the leader of The American GI Forum, an organization that JE Hoover thought was a communist front organization.
Hoover had probably paved the way for Lee to be hired at the TSBD through LBJ and DH BYRD who owned the TSBD. Byrd was one of the wealthy and powerful citizens of Dallas.
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Lee thought that he was working undercover for the FBI who wanted information about the activities of Joe Molina who worked in the TSBD and was the leader of The American GI Forum, an organization that JE Hoover thought was a communist front organization.
Hoover had probably paved the way for Lee to be hired at the TSBD through LBJ and DH BYRD who owned the TSBD. Byrd was one of the wealthy and powerful citizens of Dallas.
So...... You claim the Head of the FBI/J. Edgar knew of Oswald prior to 11/22/63? And your Proof of this would be what?
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So...... You claim the Head of the FBI/J. Edgar knew of Oswald prior to 11/22/63? And your Proof of this would be what?
C'mon Royell.... Surely you don't believe that Hoover was so stupid that he left signed documents lying around ....Do you?
However, it is a know fact that Hoover was aware of Lee Oswald as early as the summer of 1960. Lee Oswald was in Minsk, and Hoover was concerned that an impostor was using the name Lee Oswald ....At least that's the tale he gave to the State Department in an effort to learn if Lee Oswald really was a turncoat Marine or if he was an agent for American intelligence.
Surely you've seen the letter from Hoover ( 1960) in which he states that an impostor may be using Lee Oswald's birth certificate....
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LHO was in the building. WOW!
Yes, Getting Lee the job in the TSBD was the key factor in advancing the plot. And we now know that the major problem was getting Lee to actually go to the TSBD and apply for a job.... We now know that a job was there waiting for him and all that was required was that he go there and apply.
And personally I suspect that Lee thought that he was working undercover for the FBI who wanted information about the activities of Joe Molina who worked in the TSBD and was the leader of The American GI Forum, an organization that JE Hoover thought was a communist front organization.
At any rate Ruth Paine , who we now know was an FBI informer sent Lee to the TSBD to talk to Roy Truly. And Roy Truly hired Lee Oswald immediately even though the rush season was in the past, and Truly was using many of his men in projects other than processing school books .
We now know that a job was there waiting for him and all that was required was that he go there and apply.
Anybody who has studied the case is aware that Lee Oswald applied for a job at several places which were close to the parade route of the motorcade...... and it is a matter of record that someone at Love Feild had called Ruth Paine and informed her that they could use Lee Oswald as a baggage handler at Love Field ( I believe that the wage at Love Field was about 50% higher than the TSBD job. )
At any rate, if Lee had taken the job at Love Field he might have been in position to have been near JFK when AF1 landed there....
The point being...Was it mere coincidence that Lee applied for employment at many places that were near the Parade route?
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We now know that a job was there waiting for him and all that was required was that he go there and apply.
Anybody who has studied the case is aware that Lee Oswald applied for a job at several places which were close to the parade route of the motorcade...... and it is a matter of record that someone at Love Feild had called Ruth Paine and informed her that they could use Lee Oswald as a baggage handler at Love Field ( I believe that the wage at Love Field was about 50% higher than the TSBD job. )
At any rate, if Lee had taken the job at Love Field he might have been in position to have been near JFK when AF1 landed there....
The point being...Was it mere coincidence that Lee applied for employment at many places that were near the Parade route?
Why are you asking questions if you're already convinced he was working for the FBI?
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Why are you asking questions if you're already convinced he was working for the FBI?
I'm sorry If I've confused you.... I don't believe that Lee was working for the FBI ...but he certainly thought that he was....In reality he was being manipulated by Hoover and his "EXTRA SPECIAL" Special Agents......
IOW.... Lee imagined himself to be another "Herb Philbrick"... When in reality he was merely a Howdy Duty puppet ....
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I'm sorry If I've confused you.... I don't believe that Lee was working for the FBI ...but he certainly thought that he was....In reality he was being manipulated by Hoover and his "EXTRA SPECIAL" Special Agents......
IOW.... Lee imagined himself to be another "Herb Philbrick"... When in reality he was merely a Howdy Duty puppet ....
It's not me that's confused.
"But in reality, Lee Oswald was working for renegade FBI"
Walt Cakebread,today
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It's not me that's confused.
"But in reality, Lee Oswald was working for renegade FBI"
Walt Cakebread,today
I'm sorry Mr Slowgan ..... I don't believe you're up to this task......
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I'm sorry Mr Slowgan ..... I don't believe you're up to this task......
Typical response from the liar.
Someone your age with the imature retort.
Have you pounced on any newbies today with your fabricated fairy tales?
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C'mon Royell.... Surely you don't believe that Hoover was so stupid that he left signed documents lying around ....Do you?
However, it is a know fact that Hoover was aware of Lee Oswald as early as the summer of 1960. Lee Oswald was in Minsk, and Hoover was concerned that an impostor was using the name Lee Oswald ....At least that's the tale he gave to the State Department in an effort to learn if Lee Oswald really was a turncoat Marine or if he was an agent for American intelligence.
Surely you've seen the letter from Hoover ( 1960) in which he states that an impostor may be using Lee Oswald's birth certificate....
I have Never seen a "1960 Hoover Letter" acknowledging he knew of Lee Oswald. Anyone else on this Forum know of this 1960 Hoover Letter?
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I'm sorry If I've confused you.... I don't believe that Lee was working for the FBI ...but he certainly thought that he was....In reality he was being manipulated by Hoover and his "EXTRA SPECIAL" Special Agents......
IOW.... Lee imagined himself to be another "Herb Philbrick"... When in reality he was merely a Howdy Duty puppet ....
Howdy Duty
LOL
It's Howdy Doody
You need a nap, Wallyburger
And take your meds
And here's what's on tap for you after your next shock therapy treatment
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Howdy Duty
LOL
It's Howdy Doody
You need a nap, Wallyburger
And take your meds
(https://thesinglecell.files.wordpress.com/2011/06/howdy-strings.jpg[/img
And here's what's on tap for you after your daily shock therapy treatment
[img]https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=QHU_1Y7Ix5s)
That was a joke ...Moron!
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That was a joke ...Moron!
You're the forum joke here, WallyDoodleDandy
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You're the forum joke here, WallyDoodleDandy
I usually just ignore you Chappie.....Because you're nothing but a mindless troll, who has nothing to contribute....
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I usually just ignore you Chappie.....Because you're nothing but a mindless troll, who has nothing to contribute....
You ignore anyone who asks for citations...
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Typical response from the liar.
Someone your age with the imature retort.
Have you pounced on any newbies today with your fabricated fairy tales?
Tom Scully posted this interview with Jim Garrison....Mendelson could have been interviewing me because I agree with about 95% of Mr Garrison answers..... I believe that Garrison was wrong on a couple of points, but I certainly agree with most of what he says....Therefore rather than ask me more of your tiresome questions...Just read the transcript of the interview.... ( PS If you have trouble understanding the transcript perhaps you can have an elementary school kid explain it to you.
(http://jfkforum.com/images/GarrisonMay1989InterviewPg1.jpg)
22 Additional Pages (http://jfk.hood.edu/Collection/Weisberg%20Subject%20Index%20Files/G%20Disk/Garrison%20Jim/Garrison%20Jim%20David%20Mendelsohn%20Interview/Item%2001.pdf)
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C'mon Royell.... Surely you don't believe that Hoover was so stupid that he left signed documents lying around ....Do you?
However, it is a know fact that Hoover was aware of Lee Oswald as early as the summer of 1960. Lee Oswald was in Minsk, and Hoover was concerned that an impostor was using the name Lee Oswald ....At least that's the tale he gave to the State Department in an effort to learn if Lee Oswald really was a turncoat Marine or if he was an agent for American intelligence.
Surely you've seen the letter from Hoover ( 1960) in which he states that an impostor may be using Lee Oswald's birth certificate....
If a person believes LHO was a lone assassin then they would believe LHO wanted to defect like you believe he did. I'm convinced if the government told you it was spitballs and not bullets that killed JFK you would be the first to sign on
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If a person believes LHO was a lone assassin then they would believe LHO wanted to defect like you believe he did. I'm convinced if the government told you it was spitballs and not bullets that killed JFK you would be the first to sign on
Whose post are you responding too, Peter? I most certainly DO NOT believe the BS LBJ and Hoover handed us....
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What do you mean what do I mean?
You know exactly what I mean. One time did a person fire fast enough, once with speed but accuracy was missing and this among several attempts that failed. Of course, you can make the rules up as you go along, it's learned behavior. Why not say Annie Oakley did it? At least it's creative, but to roll over at every turn for some legit evidence which is always followed by tainted or missing evidence?
I don't know what you mean. Specify please.
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I don't know what you mean. Specify please.
LHO did not kill JFK. There is no evidence to support it. There is evidence of LHO in the DSBD building. That is where the evidence becomes a dead end.
Everything surrounding the gun-the casings, the clip, who handled it, etc. Impossible to replicate the alleged shots from the alleged window.
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LHO did not kill JFK. There is no evidence to support it. There is evidence of LHO in the DSBD building. That is where the evidence becomes a dead end.
Everything surrounding the gun-the casings, the clip, who handled it, etc. Impossible to replicate the alleged shots from the alleged window.
I realize that your knowledge of the facts and evidence of this case are abysmal but that's not what my question was in regards to. You claimed that "One time did a person fire fast enough, once with speed but accuracy was missing and this among several attempts that failed." Who was that person and when were the attempts made? How have you determined that it is impossible to replicate the shots from the Southeast window of the sixth floor of the TSBD?
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I realize that your knowledge of the facts and evidence of this case are abysmal but that's not what my question was in regards to. You claimed that "One time did a person fire fast enough, once with speed but accuracy was missing and this among several attempts that failed." Who was that person and when were the attempts made? How have you determined that it is impossible to replicate the shots from the Southeast window of the sixth floor of the TSBD?
Have I determined if it is impossible?? Did Tim determine it was possible?
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Have I determined if it is impossible??
"Impossible to replicate the alleged shots from the alleged window."
Did you not type that out?
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"Impossible to replicate the alleged shots from the alleged window."
Did you not type that out?
"Impossible to replicate the alleged shots from the alleged window."
Who ever typed that statement was absolutely correct......
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"Impossible to replicate the alleged shots from the alleged window."
Did you not type that out?
I get it, you want to play Checkers!
Just ask a specific question, I will be happy to answer it for you.
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I get it, you want to play Checkers!
Just ask a specific question, I will be happy to answer it for you.
How have you determined that it is impossible to replicate the shots from the Southeast window of the sixth floor of the TSBD?
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How have you determined that it is impossible to replicate the shots from the Southeast window of the sixth floor of the TSBD?
I see that is a loaded question.
How about I ask you if you think LHO on Nov. 22, 1963, killed JFK using a Mannlicher?Carcano and so on....?
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I see that is a loaded question.
How about I ask you if you think LHO on Nov. 22, 1963, killed JFK using a Mannlicher?Carcano and so on....?
How is that a loaded question? It is your claim that it is impossible to replicate the shots.
On Nov 22,1963, Lee Harvey Oswald assassinated President Kennedy using an Italian Carcano rifle that he had purchased though mail order. He fired three shots in about 8.7 seconds. The first shot missed at about frame 153 of the Zapruder film. The second shot struck both Kennedy and Connally at about Z223. The third shot struck kennedy in the head at z313. There were no other shots fired in Dealey Plaza that day.
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How is that a loaded question? It is your claim that it is impossible to replicate the shots.
On Nov 22,1963, Lee Harvey Oswald assassinated President Kennedy using an Italian Carcano rifle that he had purchased though mail order. He fired three shots in about 8.7 seconds. The first shot missed at about frame 153 of the Zapruder film. The second shot struck both Kennedy and Connally at about Z223. The third shot struck kennedy in the head at z313. There were no other shots fired in Dealey Plaza that day.
Sure, and you would believe anything.
Mail order? And you can explain why the money order was never cashed? Of course you can, that would be Ruth Paine's neighbor's fault, right?
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Sure, and you would believe anything.
Mail order? And you can explain why the money order was never cashed? Of course you can, that would be Ruth Paine's neighbor's fault, right?
The money order was cashed.
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The money order was cashed.
Sure it was Tim.
I'll forgive you since you didn't even know that it wasn't cashed.
I got you covered, just tell everyone it was Ruth Paine's neighbor's fault, it works every time.
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How have you determined that it is impossible to replicate the shots from the Southeast window of the sixth floor of the TSBD?
Something that has NEVER been Replicated is Unproven. It is merely a LEGEND. "When the Legend becomes FACT, print the Legend" applies to the SBT/Pristine Bullet. Until Replicated, it remains pure BS:
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Basing anything on 1 single eyewitness does Not make it a Fact. Until the Brennan statement is corroborated, the shots being fired from a seated position as allegedly verified by law enforcement will stand. (No pun intended)
Would the fact that Arnold Rowland also reported that he saw a man STANDING behind a window on the sixth floor be corroboration for Howard Brennan's statement ?
And I would hasten to remind you that no kneeling gunman could have knelt between the window and the stack of boxes behind that window, so a gunman would have had to have knelt behind ( to the east of) those Rolling Readers boxes ....and if he did that, then he could NOT decline the muzzle of the rifle low enough to hit a target down on Elm street.
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Would the fact that Arnold Rowland also reported that he saw a man STANDING behind a window on the sixth floor be corroboration for Howard Brennan's statement ?
And I would hasten to remind you that no kneeling gunman could have knelt between the window and the stack of boxes behind that window, so a gunman would have had to have knelt behind ( to the east of) those Rolling Readers boxes ....and if he did that, then he could NOT decline the muzzle of the rifle low enough to hit a target down on Elm street.
An eyewitness saying they saw someone standing and firing 3 shots from the snipers window vs an eyewitness saying they saw a person standing behind a window on the 6th floor = No Corroboration. You are doing yourself and CT's by extension a dis-service by attempting to Jam round pegs into square holes.
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Would the fact that Arnold Rowland also reported that he saw a man STANDING behind a window on the sixth floor be corroboration for Howard Brennan's statement ?
And I would hasten to remind you that no kneeling gunman could have knelt between the window and the stack of boxes behind that window, so a gunman would have had to have knelt behind ( to the east of) those Rolling Readers boxes ....and if he did that, then he could NOT decline the muzzle of the rifle low enough to hit a target down on Elm street.
Weren't Rowland and Brennen completely separate accounts, with Rowland from the east sidewalk on Houston Street plus 15 minutes before the shots rang out, where Brennen was directly across on Elm Street and says he saw the end or last shot fired
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Sure it was Tim.
I'll forgive you since you didn't even know that it wasn't cashed.
I got you covered, just tell everyone it was Ruth Paine's neighbor's fault, it works every time.
You don't need to forgive me at all. The money order was cashed. You obviously are new at this. If you had been engaged in the discussion three years ago, you would know that the issue was put to rest then. It was debated in this forum, In McAdams' forum and on the ED forum. Actually, there were a number of issues with the money order that were put to rest. The claim that Klein's never bothered to cash the thing was silly to begin with. They were in business for many years and never would have been if they hadn't bothered to cash checks and money orders received as payment for products that they shipped.
Here is a US Postal money order from that period that was never cashed:
(https://i.imgur.com/kOFOzoP.jpg)
Here is the Klein's money order with Oswald's handwriting on it:
(https://i.imgur.com/jVl3GQF.jpg)
The uncashed money order is missing a File Locator Number, which it would have had stamped on it if it passed through the banking system and reached the end point which was the US Treasury Dept.. That is ,if it had been cashed at a bank.
138 J159796 is the File Locator Number that Oswald's money order received after it reached the US Treasury Debt. It had been cashed.
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Something that has NEVER been Replicated is Unproven. It is merely a LEGEND. "When the Legend becomes FACT, print the Legend" applies to the SBT/Pristine Bullet. Until Replicated, it remains pure BS:
It depends on what you mean by replicated. It's certainly been established that three shots could be got off in 8.7 seconds with some degree of accuracy. The tests done for the WC and for CBS were attempting to get the three shots off in 5.6 seconds or less and they both had some success with speed and accuracy.
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It depends on what you mean by replicated. It's certainly been established that three shots could be got off in 8.7 seconds with some degree of accuracy. The tests done for the WC and for CBS were attempting to get the three shots off in 5.6 seconds or less and they both had some success with speed and accuracy.
Replicated would be: reproducing, exact copy. You're use of the phrase "some success" would not meet the bar for "Proof". "Some Success" would be more along the lines of, "Close but No cigar". Per chance you desire to rephrase that? I included the condition of the Pristine Bullet which you have omitted above. No mystery there as to why.
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Replicated would be: reproducing, exact copy. You're use of the phrase "some success" would not meet the bar for "Proof". "Some Success" would be more along the lines of, "Close but No cigar". Per chance you desire to rephrase that?
You mean that Kennedy and Connally would have to be resurrected from the dead? Yeah, that ain't gonna happen.
I included the condition of the Pristine Bullet which you have omitted above. No mystery there as to why.
The bullet wasn't pristine. It was flattened longitudinally. Why did you omit that little detail?
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Weren't Rowland and Brennen completely separate accounts, with Rowland from the east sidewalk on Houston Street plus 15 minutes before the shots rang out, where Brennen was directly across on Elm Street and says he saw the end or last shot fired
Yes, Arnold Rowland reported the same basic sighting that Howard Brennan reported... The difference is;... Rowland said he saw the man STANDING behind the window about 15 minutes prior to the shooting.....and Brennan said that he saw the man STANDING aiming the rifle out of the window during the shooting....
I'm a little skeptical about Rowland's time estimate .... And I also have some doubt about Brennan's statement regarding the time that he saw the man....
I believe Rowland and Brennan saw the same man within a few minutes . Due to Brennan's very excited state, his mind might have tricked him into thinking that he saw the man DURING the shooting when in reality he had seen that "Security Guard" man STANDING and scanning the spectators that were lining the streets below through the rifles telescopic sight. Or perhaps Brennan's honesty was being challenged by the cop that he went to to report that he'd seen a man with a high powered rifle aiming it from a sixth floor window ....In an effort to get the cop to take him seriously he said that He saw the man fire the rifle ...a small lie, but a lie never the less....
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You mean that Kennedy and Connally would have to be resurrected from the dead? Yeah, that ain't gonna happen.
The bullet wasn't pristine. It was flattened longitudinally. Why did you omit that little detail?
Your dancing around is simultaneously amusing and revealing. The discussion centers on the 3 SHOTS start-to-finish. Your attempted diversion into "resurrecting the dead" is a dodge. The bullet is usually referred to as "The PRISTINE Bullet". Hence the use of "Pristine". The weakness of your position is revealed through your quibbling over semantics. Why not follow the oft repeated admonition of Sgt Joe Friday: "Just the Facts Ma'am, just the Facts"?
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An eyewitness saying they saw someone standing and firing 3 shots from the snipers window vs an eyewitness saying they saw a person standing behind a window on the 6th floor = No Corroboration. You are doing yourself and CT's by extension a dis-service by attempting to Jam round pegs into square holes.
Huh??...Jam round pegs into square holes???
I'm disappointed in your response.... I've thought that you were more honest, and open minded, and sincerely looking for facts.....
Arnold Rowland's account most certainly does corroborate Harold Brennan's report of a man STANDING behind a window on the sixth floor......
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You don't need to forgive me at all. The money order was cashed. You obviously are new at this. If you had been engaged in the discussion three years ago, you would know that the issue was put to rest then. It was debated in this forum, In McAdams' forum and on the ED forum. Actually, there were a number of issues with the money order that were put to rest. The claim that Klein's never bothered to cash the thing was silly to begin with. They were in business for many years and never would have been if they hadn't bothered to cash checks and money orders received as payment for products that they shipped.
Here is a US Postal money order from that period that was never cashed:
(https://i.imgur.com/kOFOzoP.jpg)
Here is the Klein's money order with Oswald's handwriting on it:
(https://i.imgur.com/jVl3GQF.jpg)
The uncashed money order is missing a File Locator Number, which it would have had stamped on it if it passed through the banking system and reached the end point which was the US Treasury Dept.. That is ,if it had been cashed at a bank.
138 J159796 is the File Locator Number that Oswald's money order received after it reached the US Treasury Debt. It had been cashed.
You are old at this and you're still lying?
The money is not endorsed properly, it's missing 3 of 4 separate endorsements all 3 are below
First National Bank of Chicago w/ date stamp missing
Federal Reserve In Chicago w/ date stamp missing
Federal postal money order center in Kansas City w/ date stamp missing
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Your dancing around is simultaneously amusing and revealing. The discussion centers on the 3 SHOTS start-to-finish. Your attempted diversion into "resurrecting the dead" is a dodge.
Ok then, Kennedy and Connally are not needed to be resurrected from the dead. I'm going to need more clarity from you on what you mean by replicated. How does one go about trying to reproduce an exact copy without having Kennedy and Connally or exact copies of Kennedy and Connally at their disposal?
The bullet is usually referred to as "The PRISTINE Bullet". Hence the use of "Pristine". The weakness of your position is revealed through your quibbling over semantics. Why not follow the oft repeated admonition of Sgt Joe Friday: "Just the Facts Ma'am, just the Facts"?
"Pristine" is a misnomer. Just as "magic" is a misnomer when used to with the single bullet theory. Let's stick with the real world, shall we? Just the facts Ma'am, just the facts.
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You are old at this and you're still lying?
The money is not endorsed properly, it's missing 3 of 4 separate endorsements all 3 are below
First National Bank of Chicago w/ date stamp missing
Federal Reserve In Chicago w/ date stamp missing
Federal postal money order center in Kansas City w/ date stamp missing
Those are your claims? Can you substantiate any of them? Where do you get that endorsements from the First National Bank of Chicago, the Federal Reserve In Chicago, and
Federal postal money order center in Kansas City should all be on the money order if it had been cashed?
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Those are your claims? Can you substantiate any of them? Where do you get that endorsements from the First National Bank of Chicago, the Federal Reserve In Chicago, and
Federal postal money order center in Kansas City should all be on the money order if it had been cashed?
You mean you never looked into where a money order originates and financial institutions it travels through until ending up at its final destination.
Get your story straight. This would mean it never was deposited. No legit money order then you got no gun. Before you get ahead of yourself again,
you should probably find the paperwork for tracking the gun with the documentation of 3 points of interest
1. the import company Crescent Firearms to
2. the retailer Klein's to
3. Oswald
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You mean you never looked into where a money order originates and financial institutions it travels through until ending up at its final destination.
Get your story straight. This would mean it never was deposited. No legit money order then you got no gun. Before you get ahead of yourself again,
you should probably find the paperwork for tracking the gun with the documentation of 3 points of interest
1. the import company Crescent Firearms to
2. the retailer Klein's to
3. Oswald
Peter,
I've seen all of the available paperwork for tracking the rifle. I'm very familiar with all of the documentation. All three of your points of interest are well documented. Now, you made very specific claims that I've asked you to substantiate. Again, where do you get that endorsements from the First National Bank of Chicago, the Federal Reserve In Chicago, and the Federal postal money order center in Kansas City should all be on the money order if it had been cashed? I've seen those claims made many times before. No one yet has been able to back them up. They seem to originate with John Armstrong of the "Harvey and Lee" nonsense. Armstrong uses the following document when making those claims.
https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=10408#relPageId=199&tab=page
Correct me if I'm wrong.
If I'm correct, then where on that document is it stated that the money order should have had on it the endorsement stamps of each of the three aforementioned entities?
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Ok then, Kennedy and Connally are not needed to be resurrected from the dead. I'm going to need more clarity from you on what you mean by replicated. How does one go about trying to reproduce an exact copy without having Kennedy and Connally or exact copies of Kennedy and Connally at their disposal?
"Pristine" is a misnomer. Just as "magic" is a misnomer when used to with the single bullet theory. Let's stick with the real world, shall we? Just the facts Ma'am, just the facts.
The breaking of human bones from the same region of the body by a Carcano bullet vs the condition of CE399 is all that is needed. Please cease with the dramatics.
With the exception of Cyril, "Magic" is seldom used to describe CE399. "Pristine" on the other hand is commonly used. Why? Because of the condition of CE399 vs the damage it inflicted/ bones broken.
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The breaking of human bones from the same region of the body by a Carcano bullet vs the condition of CE399 is all that is needed. Please cease with the dramatics.
With the exception of Cyril, "Magic" is seldom used to describe CE399. "Pristine" on the other hand is commonly used. Why? Because of the condition of CE399 vs the damage it inflicted/ bones broken.
TESTS PROVE THAT THE "PRISTINE BULLET" DOES NOT SUPPORT A JFK ASSASSINATION CONSPIRACY (http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/pdf/fackler.pdf)
"One bullet traveling at 1108 ft/s and one at 1335 ft/s perforated cadaver radius bones and were caught in the bullet trap. Neither bullet had any deformation whatsoever, except for rifling impressions."
===================================================================
(https://i.imgur.com/0EeadUb.jpg)
That's the bullet that struck the cadaver radius at 1108 ft/s.
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Peter,
I've seen all of the available paperwork for tracking the rifle. I'm very familiar with all of the documentation. All three of your points of interest are well documented. Now, you made very specific claims that I've asked you to substantiate. Again, where do you get that endorsements from the First National Bank of Chicago, the Federal Reserve In Chicago, and the Federal postal money order center in Kansas City should all be on the money order if it had been cashed? I've seen those claims made many times before. No one yet has been able to back them up. They seem to originate with John Armstrong of the "Harvey and Lee" nonsense. Armstrong uses the following document when making those claims.
https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=10408#relPageId=199&tab=page
Correct me if I'm wrong
If I'm correct, then where on that document is it stated that the money order should have had on it the endorsement stamps of each of the three aforementioned entities?
There is path a money order travel, Oswald would have to purchase the money order send it to Klein's. So Kleins would be the 1st endorsement and that would be to First National Bank of Chicago next 3 would be the path in which this money order would go to its final destination. The money order would need to get back to Kansas City which is the same place 5 other money orders that Oswald used for other things. After the assassination, a postal inspector from Dallas suddenly says he found a stub for the money order then when he is later interviewed by the WC, amazingly he can not produce the stub which he had brought to the investigation initially telling the FBI first. The inspector who initiated the conversation about the alleged stub from the money order had the last name, Holmes. Again when interviewed he could not produce this stub that he had offered to them initially but more importantly he never commented on the postal regulations for the weapons. I have a tough time trying to explain how Oswald could have 5 other money orders in the K.C. postal center where they all of them would normally end up but the one you show was already in D.C. when there is no reason for it to have been in D.C it should have been maintained or simply located in K.C.. The other problem is the March 12 dated on the envelope this money order was sent. How could he send the envelope, money order and the same money endorsed and dated the same date? Did they have FedEx overnight delivery? When did he take possession of the gun
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TESTS PROVE THAT THE "PRISTINE BULLET" DOES NOT SUPPORT A JFK ASSASSINATION CONSPIRACY (http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/pdf/fackler.pdf)
"One bullet traveling at 1108 ft/s and one at 1335 ft/s perforated cadaver radius bones and were caught in the bullet trap. Neither bullet had any deformation whatsoever, except for rifling impressions."
===================================================================
(https://i.imgur.com/0EeadUb.jpg)
That's the bullet that struck the cadaver radius at 1108 ft/s.
Very good bluff. Except the broken Radius is Not the Total Damage allegedly inflicted by CE399. Plus, CE399 was allegedly Tumbling and Not moving unimpeded. CE399 is alleged to Not be moving at full speed or in anything close to a straight line. The above is therefore not remotely close to being a "replication".
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If I'm correct, then where on that document is it stated that the money order should have had on it the endorsement stamps of each of the three aforementioned entities?
That is correct.
There is path a money order travel, Oswald would have to purchase the money order send it to Klein's. So Kleins would be the 1st endorsement and that would be to First National Bank of Chicago next 3 would be the path in which this money order would go to its final destination.
Once Klein's had placed their endorsement stamp on the money order, any additional endorsement stamps placed on it would have made it invalid.
On the back of the money order (https://www.history-matters.com/archive/jfk/wc/wcvols/wh17/html/WH_Vol17_0352a.htm) we read:
"More than one endorsement is prohibited by law. Bank stamps are not regarded as endorsements."
The money order would need to get back to Kansas City which is the same place 5 other money orders that Oswald used for other things. After the assassination, a postal inspector from Dallas suddenly says he found a stub for the money order then when he is later interviewed by the WC, amazingly he can not produce the stub which he had brought to the investigation initially telling the FBI first. The inspector who initiated the conversation about the alleged stub from the money order had the last name, Holmes. Again when interviewed he could not produce this stub that he had offered to them initially but more importantly he never commented on the postal regulations for the weapons. I have a tough time trying to explain how Oswald could have 5 other money orders in the K.C. postal center where they all of them would normally end up but the one you show was already in D.C. when there is no reason for it to have been in D.C it should have been maintained or simply located in K.C..
I don't recall Harry Holmes saying that he had found the stub. The postal regulations for the weapons were met. The regulations for rifles were quite lax. Stricter regulations applied for concealable weapons like the revolver. However, they didn't apply to Oswald's revolver since it wasn't shipped by the Postal service.
At that time, there were two places where cashed money orders were sent. One was Kansas City , Missouri. The other was Washington, D.C. From the following document:
https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=10408#relPageId=200&tab=page
"Lester Gohr,Assistant Cashier,Federal Reserve Bank of Chicago (FRB), La Salle and Jackson Streets, Chicago, Illinois, furnished the following information:
...when the Postal Money Order in question would have been received, approximately three fourths of the money orders were being sent to Washington, D.C. and the balance to Kansas City, Missouri."
The Klein's money order was sent to Washington, D.C. At the US Dept. of Treasury, the money order received it's File Locator Number.
(https://i.imgur.com/rPwa5ZS.png)
https://www.computer.org/csdl/proceedings/afips/1966/5068/00/50680479.pdf
The other problem is the March 12 dated on the envelope this money order was sent. How could he send the envelope, money order and the same money endorsed and dated the same date? Did they have FedEx overnight delivery? When did he take possession of the gun
The date of March 12 stamped on the money order and on the envelop was the date that the money order was purchased and the date that it was mailed. The envelop, with the money order in it, was mailed by airmail and was received by Klein's the next day. The money order passed through Klein's cash register that day and Klein's shipped the rifle off a week later. I'm not sure when Oswald received it.
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Very good bluff. Except the broken Radius is Not the Total Damage allegedly inflicted by CE399. Plus, CE399 was allegedly Tumbling and Not moving unimpeded. CE399 is alleged to Not be moving at full speed or in anything close to a straight line. The above is therefore not remotely close to being a "replication".
The rib is a very thin bone. The damage that the bullet received upon striking it is seen in the longitudinal flattening.
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That is correct.
Once Klein's had placed their endorsement stamp on the money order, any additional endorsement stamps placed on it would have made it invalid.
On the back of the money order (https://www.history-matters.com/archive/jfk/wc/wcvols/wh17/html/WH_Vol17_0352a.htm) we read:
"More than one endorsement is prohibited by law. Bank stamps are not regarded as endorsements."
I don't recall Harry Holmes saying that he had found the stub. The postal regulations for the weapons were met. The regulations for rifles were quite lax. Stricter regulations applied for concealable weapons like the revolver. However, they didn't apply to Oswald's revolver since it wasn't shipped by the Postal service.
At that time, there were two places where cashed money orders were sent. One was Kansas City , Missouri. The other was Washington, D.C. From the following document:
https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=10408#relPageId=200&tab=page
"Lester Gohr,Assistant Cashier,Federal Reserve Bank of Chicago (FRB), La Salle and Jackson Streets, Chicago, Illinois, furnished the following information:
...when the Postal Money Order in question would have been received, approximately three fourths of the money orders were being sent to Washington, D.C. and the balance to Kansas City, Missouri."
The Klein's money order was sent to Washington, D.C. At the US Dept. of Treasury, the money order received it's File Locator Number.
(https://i.imgur.com/rPwa5ZS.png)
https://www.computer.org/csdl/proceedings/afips/1966/5068/00/50680479.pdf
The date of March 12 stamped on the money order and on the envelop was the date that the money order was purchased and the date that it was mailed. The envelop, with the money order in it, was mailed by airmail and was received by Klein's the next day. The money order passed through Klein's cash register that day and Klein's shipped the rifle off a week later. I'm not sure when Oswald received it.
I think this is me interpreting two things and confusing them
How would you find the documentation for when the gun changed physical custody between two parties?
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.. the broken Radius is Not the Total Damage allegedly inflicted by CE399. Plus, CE399 was allegedly Tumbling and Not moving unimpeded. CE399 is alleged to Not be moving at full speed or in anything close to a straight line.
Close your eyes like some of these other guys and just say-- you've got to believe in magic.
(https://www.history-matters.com/essays/jfkmed/Breakability/images/figure_8_sml.jpg)
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I think this is me interpreting two things and confusing them
How would you find the documentation for when the gun changed physical custody between two parties?
If by "two parties" you mean Klein's and Oswald then the last piece of documentation between Klein's letting it go and Oswald taking possession of it would be the following shipping invoice:
(https://i.imgur.com/QBZJWsM.jpg)
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Close your eyes like some of these other guys and just say-- you've got to believe in magic.
(https://www.history-matters.com/essays/jfkmed/Breakability/images/figure_8_sml.jpg)
The main difference between the two bullets is that CE-399 struck the rib at a much lower velocity than the bullet that struck the goat's rib.
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If by "two parties" you mean Klein's and Oswald then the last piece of documentation between Klein's letting it go and Oswald taking possession of it would be the following shipping invoice:
(https://i.imgur.com/QBZJWsM.jpg)
That's what I was thinking but actually, if I remember correctly it was some form that shows the inventory maybe related to imported items. I'm thinking companies self-monitored using their inventory books so as long as they maintained them. Too much cough syrup makes me forget
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That's what I was thinking but actually, if I remember correctly it was some form that shows the inventory maybe related to imported items. I'm thinking companies self-monitored using their inventory books so as long as they maintained them. Too much cough syrup makes me forget
https://historymatters.com/archive/jfk/wc/wcvols/wh21/contents.htm
Scroll down to the Waldman Exhibits. There are ten in all.
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The rib is a very thin bone. The damage that the bullet received upon striking it is seen in the longitudinal flattening.
If a rib caused the "longitudinal flattening" seen on CE399, what damage to CE399 are you attributing to it allegedly Striking/Breaking the Radius Bone? The Radius being far more dense than a Rib.
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If a rib caused the "longitudinal flattening" seen on CE399, what damage to CE399 are you attributing to it allegedly Striking/Breaking the Radius Bone? The Radius being far more dense than a Rib.
CE-399 never received any damage to it from striking and breaking the radius bone. By the time it struck that bone it's velocity had been reduced below that which would cause any deformation to it.
TESTS PROVE THAT THE "PRISTINE BULLET" DOES NOT SUPPORT A JFK ASSASSINATION CONSPIRACY (http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/pdf/fackler.pdf)
"One bullet traveling at 1108 ft/s and one at 1335 ft/s perforated cadaver radius bones and were caught in the bullet trap. Neither bullet had any deformation whatsoever, except for rifling impressions."
===================================================================
(https://i.imgur.com/0EeadUb.jpg)
That's the bullet that struck the cadaver radius at 1108 ft/s.
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CE-399 never received any damage to it from striking and breaking the radius bone. By the time it struck that bone it's velocity had been reduced below that which would cause any deformation to it.
TESTS PROVE THAT THE "PRISTINE BULLET" DOES NOT SUPPORT A JFK ASSASSINATION CONSPIRACY (http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/pdf/fackler.pdf)
"One bullet traveling at 1108 ft/s and one at 1335 ft/s perforated cadaver radius bones and were caught in the bullet trap. Neither bullet had any deformation whatsoever, except for rifling impressions."
===================================================================
(https://i.imgur.com/0EeadUb.jpg)
That's the bullet that struck the cadaver radius at 1108 ft/s.
CE399 hit the Dense radius bone Hard enough to break it. Yet, you are claiming this Impact inflicted No damage what-so-ever to CE399. Just throwing a bullet against a block wall/hard object will inflict some level of damage to the bullet. Your claiming CE399 "Never received ANY Damage to it from striking and breaking the radius bone" is so Unbelievable that it DQ's your entire position.
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CE399 hit the Dense radius bone Hard enough to break it. Yet, you are claiming this Impact inflicted No damage what-so-ever to CE399. Just throwing a bullet against a block wall/hard object will inflict some level of damage to the bullet. Your claiming CE399 "Never received ANY Damage to it from striking and breaking the radius bone" is so Unbelievable that it DQ's your entire position.
This is not just me claiming that CE399 never received any noticeable damage to it from striking and breaking the radius bone. It's wound ballistics experts like the late Martin Fackler not only claiming it but proving that it was possible as well.
TESTS PROVE THAT THE "PRISTINE BULLET" DOES NOT SUPPORT A JFK ASSASSINATION CONSPIRACY (http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/pdf/fackler.pdf)
"One bullet traveling at 1108 ft/s and one at 1335 ft/s perforated cadaver radius bones and were caught in the bullet trap. Neither bullet had any deformation whatsoever, except for rifling impressions."
===================================================================
(https://i.imgur.com/0EeadUb.jpg)
That's the bullet that struck the cadaver radius at 1108 ft/s.
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This is not just me claiming that CE399 never received any noticeable damage to it from striking and breaking the radius bone. It's wound ballistics experts like the late Martin Fackler not only claiming it but proving that it was possible as well.
TESTS PROVE THAT THE "PRISTINE BULLET" DOES NOT SUPPORT A JFK ASSASSINATION CONSPIRACY (http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/pdf/fackler.pdf)
"One bullet traveling at 1108 ft/s and one at 1335 ft/s perforated cadaver radius bones and were caught in the bullet trap. Neither bullet had any deformation whatsoever, except for rifling impressions."
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(https://i.imgur.com/0EeadUb.jpg)
That's the bullet that struck the cadaver radius at 1108 ft/s.
Nice of you to change your previous declaration of, "Never received ANY Damage" to, "Never received Any NOTICEABLE Damage". Why not just admit you got carried away and move on?
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"Impossible to replicate the alleged shots from the alleged window."
Who ever typed that statement was absolutely correct......
Colin Crow started a thread that is related to this subject.... He posted photos that make it evident that a rifle could not have been fired at JFK down on Elm street from the tiny cramped S.N. (SMOKER'S NOOK.)...
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Nice of you to change your previous declaration of, "Never received ANY Damage" to, "Never received Any NOTICEABLE Damage". Why not just admit you got carried away and move on?
What is the difference? If it's not noticeable then how can one say it's been damaged?
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What is the difference? If it's not noticeable then how can one say it's been damaged?
"Noticeable" is far from definitive. How many times have you told a kid with a Zit on his face that, "It's not NOTICEABLE". "Noticeable" is "Eye of the beholder" stuff. This is exactly why you ran there for shelter. You got carried away. Simple as that.
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This is not just me claiming that CE399 never received any noticeable damage to it from striking and breaking the radius bone. It's wound ballistics experts like the late Martin Fackler not only claiming it but proving that it was possible as well.
TESTS PROVE THAT THE "PRISTINE BULLET" DOES NOT SUPPORT A JFK ASSASSINATION CONSPIRACY (http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/pdf/fackler.pdf)
"One bullet traveling at 1108 ft/s and one at 1335 ft/s perforated cadaver radius bones and were caught in the bullet trap. Neither bullet had any deformation whatsoever, except for rifling impressions."
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(https://i.imgur.com/0EeadUb.jpg)
That's the bullet that struck the cadaver radius at 1108 ft/s.
"experts like the late Martin Fackler not only claiming it but proving that it was possible"
The expert by saying it's "possible" is doing more to support LHO being innocent. I say this because the gun and the bullets have so many problems with being reliable evidence. And the other question -is the gun reliable in terms of its use? I imagine the answer would be "no but it is economical"
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The main difference between the two bullets is that CE-399 struck the rib at a much lower velocity than the bullet that struck the goat's rib.
You were out there with a stop watch I suppose?
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The main difference between the two bullets is that CE-399 struck the rib at a much lower velocity than the bullet that struck the goat's rib.
I don't care about velocity. That bullet is a fraud. What about the Connally's Knickers?...what about what the Connallys said?
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I don't care about velocity. That bullet is a fraud. What about the Connally's Knickers?...what about what the Connallys said?
Jerry, Jerry, Jerry.... You're simply too smart, and you've got too much commonsense.... But you're still just another pissant.
LBJ knew us pissants could be manipulated like a puppet on a string.....just by presenting the image of the Hiroshima explosion.....
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I have Never seen a "1960 Hoover Letter" acknowledging he knew of Lee Oswald. Anyone else on this Forum know of this 1960 Hoover Letter?
Walt's right about that one.
(http://harveyandlee.net/Comrade/Hoover.jpg)
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138 J159796 is the File Locator Number that Oswald's money order received after it reached the US Treasury Debt. It had been cashed.
Too bad that Klein's trotted out a deposit slip from February to show that this money order was deposited into their account in March...
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If by "two parties" you mean Klein's and Oswald then the last piece of documentation between Klein's letting it go and Oswald taking possession of it would be the following shipping invoice:
That's not a "shipping invoice", it's an order blank. And it doesn't show that Oswald took possession of anything.
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TIME: 8/24 1:25 PM
TO: BILL AMBROSINO
FROM: MARY FERRELL
SUBJECT: JFK-CIA EXPERTISE
I knew Roger Craig for several years before his death. It is my belief
that Roger was a very sick young man. He had made a name for himself as a
very promising young law enforcement officer. When he came forward with
some of the "stories" he told following the events of that November
weekend, he believed that he would be offered a great deal of money and,
possibly, speaking engagements. I am very sorry to say that I am one of
the few conspiracy nuts who never believed Roger Craig.
When Roger made a number of speeches about the fact that "they" prevented
him from getting a job, I talked my husband into giving him a job. Roger
did not want to work. He wanted people to give him money because he had
"seen something or other."
I have made enemies because I have continued to say that I have never
really believed him.
Mary Ferrell https://groups.google.com/forum/#!msg/alt.assassination.jfk/wwrhNDD-YGQ/YLFb8HGA2pMJ
I don't know who this BILL AMBROSINO is or why she would write him- but 1. Ms Ferrell doesn't mention this from her personal records and 2. I have never heard her refer to herself as a "conspiracy nut" and doubt that she would. and 3. Ms Ferrell didn't 'make' any enemies. She was an amiable person, a nice lady and shared her research freely.
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I don't care about velocity. That bullet is a fraud. What about the Connally's Knickers?...what about what the Connallys said?
There's nothing complicated about the "magic Bullet" (CE 399)..... And it's not magic....Mr Howard was able to duplicate CE 399 three times with five cartridges.
The problem arises when some fool claims that CE 399 hit two men and shattered a rib and a wrist bone.... Mr Larry N.Howard fired into a bullet trap and created three replicas of CE 399 ......And that's the same way that CE 399 was created
https://goldinauctions.com/_The_Magic_Bullet__Replica_Display_of_CE_399_Bulle-LOT27742.aspx
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That's not a "shipping invoice", it's an order blank. And it doesn't show that Oswald took possession of anything.
Mr. BELIN. Mr. Waldman, you have just put the microfilm which we call D-77 into your viewer which is marked a Microfilm Reader-Printer, and you have identified this as No. 270502, according to your records. Is this just a record number of yours on this particular shipment?
Mr. WALDMAN. That's a number which we assign for identification purposes.
Mr. BELIN. And on the microfilm record, would you please state who it shows this particular rifle was shipped
Mr. WALDMAN. Shipped to a Mr. A.--last name H-i-d-e-l-l, Post Office Box 2915, Dallas, Tex.
Mr. BELIN. And does it show arts' serial number or control number?
Mr. WALDMAN. It shows shipment of a rifle bearing our control number VC-836 and serial number C-2766.
Mr. BELIN. Is there a price shown for that?
Mr. WALDMAN. Price is $19.95, plus $1.50 postage and handling, or a total of $21.45.
Mr. BELIN. Now, I see another number off to the left. What is this number?
Mr. WALDMAN. The number that you referred to, C20-T750 is a catalog number.
Mr. BELIN. And after that, there appears some words of identification or description. Can you state what that is?
Mr. WALDMAN. The number designates an item which we sell, namely, an Italian carbine, 6.5 caliber rifle with the 4X scope.
Mr. BELIN. Is there a date of shipment which appears on this microfilm record?
Mr. WALDMAN. Yes; the date of shipment was March 20, 1963.
Mr. BELIN. Does it show by what means it was shipped?
Mr. WALDMAN. It was shipped by parcel post as indicated by this circle around the letters "PP."
Mr. BELIN. Does it show if any amount was enclosed with the order itself?
Mr. WALDMAN. Yes; the amount that was enclosed with the order was $21.45, as designated on the right-hand side of this order blank here.
Mr. BELIN. Opposite the words "total amount enclosed"?
Mr. WALDMAN. Yes.
Mr. BELIN. Is there anything which indicates in what form you received the money?
Mr. WALDMAN. Yes; below the amount is shown the letters "MO" designating money order.
Mr. BELIN. Now, I see the extreme top of this microfilm, the date, March 13, 1963; to what does that refer?
Mr. WALDMAN. This is an imprint made by our cash register indicating that the remittance received from the customer was passed through our register on that date.
Mr. BELIN. And to the right of that, I see $21.45. Is that correct?
Mr. WALDMAN. That's correct.
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No, what it shows is that somebody circled ?PP? on a piece of paper. Where?s the postal service documentation that this package ever went through their system and was delivered or picked up?
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No, what it shows is that somebody circled ?PP? on a piece of paper. Where?s the postal service documentation that this package ever went through their system and was delivered or picked up?
Provide an example of the postal service documentation of the day that was used as verification for packages having passed through their system. Waldman used invoice No. 270502 as verification that they shipped the rifle.
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Provide an example of the postal service documentation of the day that was used as verification for packages having passed through their system. Waldman used invoice No. 270502 as verification that they shipped the rifle.
So then there is no actual evidence of a package going through the USPS and delivered to PO Box 2915, or being signed for or picked up by Oswald or anyone else, but we should just believe that it was because somebody circled ?PP? on a piece of paper at some indeterminate time?