JFK Assassination Forum
JFK Assassination Discussion & Debate => JFK Assassination Discussion & Debate => Topic started by: Joe Kulik on June 23, 2018, 02:03:06 AM
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Although I've been interested in JFK research for decades, I only discovered John Armstrong's research into "Harvey and Lee" just a few days ago. After spending hours at HarveyAndLee.net, I find Armstrong's conclusion that there were two LHO's from an early age to be quite plausible.
However, I don't know which is more insane, that the CIA actually conceived and executed such a bizarre scheme, or that two separate LHO families actually went along with it.
To execute the plan where the life histories of two boys were deliberately confused meant two families moving MANY times across different states, and both Margueite Oswald's almost constantly changing jobs. In short, both LHO families dedicated their whole lives to make this "Oswald Project" a success.
But why ??
What was the motive of either LHO family to cooperate in a bizarre scheme that took over their whole lives for years ? Getting paid a lot of money seems like an obvious answer, but neither LHO family seemed very afffluent. Furthermore, is all the money in the world worth turning your entire life over to a long term CIA scheme ? Also, even before the assassination, Project Oswald meant two mothers sacrificing their sons' lives to the government. What mother (even a stepmother) would do that ?
Although Armstrong's research is impeccable, there is much more to Project Oswald than even Armstrong knows. Around the same time that both LHO's were growing up, the CIA was also conducting the MKULTRA experiments. Is it possible that both LHO families were coerced to cooperate with the CIA because they were also subject to some kind of mind control techniques ?
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Although I've been interested in JFK research for decades, I only discovered John Armstrong's research into "Harvey and Lee" just a few days ago. After spending hours at HarveyAndLee.net, I find Armstrong's conclusion that there were two LHO's from an early age to be quite plausible.
However, I don't know which is more insane, that the CIA actually conceived and executed such a bizarre scheme, or that two separate LHO families actually went along with it.
To execute the plan where the life histories of two boys were deliberately confused meant two families moving MANY times across different states, and both Margueite Oswald's almost constantly changing jobs. In short, both LHO families dedicated their whole lives to make this "Oswald Project" a success.
But why ??
What was the motive of either LHO family to cooperate in a bizarre scheme that took over their whole lives for years ? Getting paid a lot of money seems like an obvious answer, but neither LHO family seemed very afffluent. Furthermore, is all the money in the world worth turning your entire life over to a long term CIA scheme ? Also, even before the assassination, Project Oswald meant two mothers sacrificing their sons' lives to the government. What mother (even a stepmother) would do that ?
Although Armstrong's research is impeccable, there is much more to Project Oswald than even Armstrong knows. Around the same time that both LHO's were growing up, the CIA was also conducting the MKULTRA experiments. Is it possible that both LHO families were coerced to cooperate with the CIA because they were also subject to some kind of mind control techniques ?
You've just entered .... The Twilight Zone......
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Although I've been interested in JFK research for decades, I only discovered John Armstrong's research into "Harvey and Lee" just a few days ago. After spending hours at HarveyAndLee.net, I find Armstrong's conclusion that there were two LHO's from an early age to be quite plausible.
However, I don't know which is more insane, that the CIA actually conceived and executed such a bizarre scheme, or that two separate LHO families actually went along with it.
To execute the plan where the life histories of two boys were deliberately confused meant two families moving MANY times across different states, and both Margueite Oswald's almost constantly changing jobs. In short, both LHO families dedicated their whole lives to make this "Oswald Project" a success.
But why ??
What was the motive of either LHO family to cooperate in a bizarre scheme that took over their whole lives for years ? Getting paid a lot of money seems like an obvious answer, but neither LHO family seemed very afffluent. Furthermore, is all the money in the world worth turning your entire life over to a long term CIA scheme ? Also, even before the assassination, Project Oswald meant two mothers sacrificing their sons' lives to the government. What mother (even a stepmother) would do that ?
Although Armstrong's research is impeccable, there is much more to Project Oswald than even Armstrong knows. Around the same time that both LHO's were growing up, the CIA was also conducting the MKULTRA experiments. Is it possible that both LHO families were coerced to cooperate with the CIA because they were also subject to some kind of mind control techniques ?
Although you find the H&L theory "plausible" you seem to have a good degree of skepticism which is good. You ask a few questions for which there are no common sense answers and that, of course, is because the theory is total nonsense. A couple points.
One, Armstrong's research is not impeccable" far from it. It was voluminous, but there are innumerable typos, incorrect or non-existent citations and simple mistatements of fact. A quick example that I uncovered during my extensive research of Armstrong's claim that the student Stephen Harris Landesberg and the actor Steve Landesberg were the same person. On page 380 of Harvey and Lee, Armstrong states:
[quote on] Stephen Yves L'Eandes (aka Steve Landesberg), who had recently appeared on New York radio programs to uphold the concept of segregation, was in the audience along with Earl Perry and Lee Oswald, who had a camera.[quote off]
Armstrong's source for the allegation that Oswald was present and taking pictures is a January 18, 1962 article from The Village Voice. Such an early report of Oswald in New York with or without a camera would be powerful confirmation of Armstrong's theories. It is not too surprising therefore, that the article contains no mention of Oswald, Earl Perry or a camera. Now perhaps Armstrong never learned what the purpose and meaning of citations are, but they are susposed to support the statement you are making. If you read the two articles I did on Landesberg, you will see numerous other examples of Armstrong taking liberties with the facts. So, the idea that Armstrong is this amazing researcher who uncovered all of these amazing facts is not true.
The other thing is, you seem to want to add your own ideas to the Armstrong theory. Just don't present these to Hargrove or anyone in the Armstrong camp because you will be quickly expelled from the group as Armstrong does not permit any changes to his doctrine.
You say you have spent hours at the Hargrove site, why not do the same at the following sites:
My own (scroll down to Harvey and Lee):
http://wtracyparnell.blogspot.com/p/p.html
Greg Parker:
http://reopenkennedycase.forumotion.net/f13-the-harvey-lee-evidence
Jeremy Bojczuk:
http://22november1963.org.uk/john-armstrong-harvey-and-lee-theory
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Not only have we entered the Twilight Zone, but its the Steve Landesberg' Twilight Zone Now I am not sure I would describe it as the pit ofmans fears and the summit of his knowledge because Landesberg is not ostensibly frightening or intelligent There is of course, and why wouldn't there be, The two Landesberg theory I can't wait to until we can create something like a read along soundtrack to increase mood generation and suspense for stories like this
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Dear Tracy:
Thanks for those links. I didn't read everything that was there, but I read enough to realize that at least the root premise of Armstrong's theory is quite unreal. How in the world could the CIA or anyone else in the pre-computer days of the late 1940's find a look alike for a little boy in the vastness of America ? It might be possible to do so after 1990 with the help of the internet, but in the late 1940's it was just impossible. Moreover, just because two little boys have a similar appearance that is no indication that they will resemble each other as adults.
However, Armstrong aside, there has long existed tangible evidence in the JFK research of sightings of an LHO double, a look alike. But whatever the explanation for such an LHO twin, Armstrong's theory just doesn't explain it fully.
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Joe- Just curious why you started your own thread when on this?
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Although I've been interested in JFK research for decades, I only discovered John Armstrong's research into "Harvey and Lee" just a few days ago. After spending hours at HarveyAndLee.net, I find Armstrong's conclusion that there were two LHO's from an early age to be quite plausible.
There's nothing plausible about this so-called bullxxxx theory. It's just a bunch of mistaken, misunderstood and twisting of the available record to spin another crazy JFK conspiracy for the crazies. To have made this a real event, a million and one confluence of random events would have had to have happened to make it real. And as the saying goes, life doesn't work that way.
Tracy Parnell, among others, has ripped this crazy theory to shreds. Read the links he has posted and if you want to go to another one, go here:
http://educationforum.ipbhost.com/topic/23677-a-couple-of-real-gems-from-the-harvey-and-lee-website/
Sadly, many of the folks who posted on the above rebutting this theory either no longer are allowed to post on the Education Forum - also known as the Echo Chamber - or have moved on.
Keep in mind, too, that although there are some good JFK conspiracy authors, there are also charlatans. Although John Armstrong now claims to allow you to get the HL book and CD for free, he used to also charge $60 bucks for his HL opus. Just like another charlatan, Dave Lifton, who made his millions on his other fake theory Best Evidence, and will probably make another million on his upcoming dishonest book Final Charade. Because, you know, there's always a million suckers out there ready to be duped.
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To have made this a real event, a million and one confluence of random events would have had to have happened to make it real. ........life doesn't work that way.
Sounds also like the lone gunman theory.
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Sounds also like the lone gunman theory.
You're exactly right. Not quite a million and one confluences, but plenty to raise reasonable doubt in even the most naive individual.
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I am convinced that someone was impersonating Oswald.
A separated at birth- Lee and Harvey.....ehhh
But this is curious.....
From the testimony of Ruth Paine---
Mrs. PAINE - I might point out that I didn't know Lee had a middle name until I had occasion to fill out forms for Marina in Parkland Hospital.
Mr. JENNER - That is when you learned that his middle name was Harvey and his initial was H?
Mrs. PAINE - Right.
Then testimony resumed that afternoon...
Mr. JENNER - Similar. All right, thank you. Mr. Chairman, because of the point raised by Representative Ford with particular reference to the word "photographer" which, by the way, is misspelled, it is spelled "f-o-t-o-g-r-a-p-e-r," and things of that sort do occur as you have already noted in many of his writings, very bad misspellings.
Mr. McCLOY - Yes, his grammar seems to be better than this spelling.
Mr. JENNER - Yes. This form is an official form printed of the Texas State License Bureau entitled "Application for Texas driver's license," on the line provided for "name" there appears over "first name", "Lee"; over "middle name", "Harvey"; and "last name", "Oswald."
Then notice after some testimony, that out of the blue.. she calls Lee-- "Harvey"!!
Mr. JENNER - Whenever this doesn't include Lee Harvey Oswald would you be good enough to tell us?
Mrs. PAINE - When he was not present?
Mr. JENNER - That is right.
Mrs. PAINE - My recollection is that he was present most of the weekend. He went out to buy groceries, came in with a cheery call to his two girls, saying, "Yabutchski," which means girls, the Russian word for girls, as he came in the door. It was more like Harvey than I had seen him before. He remembered this time. I saw him reading a pocketbook.
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Keep in mind, too, that although there are some good JFK conspiracy authors, there are also charlatans. Although John Armstrong now claims to allow you to get the HL book and CD for free, he used to also charge $60 bucks for his HL opus. Just like another charlatan, Dave Lifton, who made his millions on his other fake theory Best Evidence, and will probably make another million on his upcoming dishonest book Final Charade. Because, you know, there's always a million suckers out there ready to be duped.
As opposed to Posner and Bugliosi who just did it out of the goodness of their hearts...
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As opposed to Posner and Bugliosi who just did it out of the goodness of their hearts...
Don't forget David Belin's ...You are the Jury. All of them joined at the backside.
There is only one lone nut version of the story. No matter how impossible...improbable or miraculous.. one guy did it.
That left 1001 conspiracy theories with any variation-- a dash of generals and wealthy Texas businessmen a sprinkle of rogue CIA hatchet men and Alpha 66 Cubans...a mixture of corrupt politicians and dirty cops...all who really hated JFK = one amazing cover up.
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There's nothing plausible about this so-called bullxxxx theory. It's just a bunch of mistaken, misunderstood and twisting of the available record to spin another crazy JFK conspiracy for the crazies. To have made this a real event, a million and one confluence of random events would have had to have happened to make it real. And as the saying goes, life doesn't work that way.
Tracy Parnell, among others, has ripped this crazy theory to shreds. Read the links he has posted and if you want to go to another one, go here:
LINK DELETED: Links To websites which contain materials or links to materials which are unsuitable for viewing by minors is forbidden/topic/23677-a-couple-of-real-gems-from-the-harvey-and-lee-website/
Sadly, many of the folks who posted on the above rebutting this theory either no longer are allowed to post on the Education Forum - also known as the Echo Chamber - or have moved on.
Keep in mind, too, that although there are some good JFK conspiracy authors, there are also charlatans. Although John Armstrong now claims to allow you to get the HL book and CD for free, he used to also charge $60 bucks for his HL opus. Just like another charlatan, Dave Lifton, who made his millions on his other fake theory Best Evidence, and will probably make another million on his upcoming dishonest book Final Charade. Because, you know, there's always a million suckers out there ready to be duped.
Mr. Parnell, please consider changing this in the header of your website's pages....
http://wtracyparnell.blogspot.com/2017/01/armstrong-evolving-landesberg-theory.html
.....Debunking JFK Conspiracy Theories.... (suggestion: Debunking whoever/whatever stands in the way of determining reliable
JFK Assassination Investigation details/evidence)
.....UPDATE: Armstrong has removed all references to the ?3 am Interview.?
However, because of an FBI document located by researcher Tom Scully, we now have a detailed chronology of the facts in this matter....
I am making this request to you because I am strongly invested in verifiable fact trumping the LN vs CT competition.
Did these weasel words, crafted by lawyers of the best schools and lifelong connections, actually compete in terms of scope, damage,
fallout, with anything John Armstrong has inaccurately presented?
IOW, from the standpoint of historical influence or impact (obstruction of justice ?), has Armstrong, DiEugenio, or any other prominent
voice of the CT camp deliberately deceived the American people to anywhere near this extent?:
Page 95 of the Warren Report: https://www.history-matters.com/archive/jfk/wc/wr/html/WCReport_0060a.htm
(http://jfkforum.com/images/jfkWarrenReportPage95CE399.jpg)
Mr. Parnell, you seem to be a "just the facts" guy, like I endeavor to confine myself to being/presenting as. If you are,
should you not take offense at the deliberate "All evidence indicated" fraud published on page 95 of the WR, especially considering the motive
for the wording was to attempt to eliminate even the possibility there were more than three shots and one shooter?
BINGO !....
(http://jfkforum.com/images/JFKhumesCE399WCpurpose.jpg)
https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=4272#relPageId=23&tab=page
(http://jfkforum.com/images/JFKce399JerryMcKnight.jpg)
.....
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Mr. Parnell, please consider changing this in the header of your website's pages....
I am making this request to you because I am strongly invested in verifiable fact trumping the LN vs CT competition.
Did these weasel words, crafted by lawyers of the best schools and lifelong connections, actually compete in terms of scope, damage,
fallout, with anything John Armstrong has inaccurately presented?
IOW, from the standpoint of historical influence or impact (obstruction of justice ?), has Armstrong, DiEugenio, or any other prominent
voice of the CT camp deliberately deceived the American people to anywhere near this extent?:
Page 95 of the Warren Report: https://www.history-matters.com/archive/jfk/wc/wr/html/WCReport_0060a.htm
(http://jfkforum.com/images/jfkWarrenReportPage95CE399.jpg)
Mr. Parnell, you seem to be a "just the facts" guy, like I endeavor to confine myself to being/presenting as. If you are,
should you not take offense at the deliberate "All evidence indicated" fraud published on page 95 of the WR, especially considering the motive
for the wording was to attempt to eliminate even the possibility there were more than three shots and one shooter?
THE COMMISSION'S KNOWING DECEPTION AND MISREPRESENTATION Is a ringing self-indictment,
The Commission's purpose from the outset of its (sham) investigation was confined to building a prosecution case against a dead man.
( Whom they had to have known was lynched to keep him from defending himself....and exposing the insane fiend who was behind the coup)
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Tom,
I'll leave it up to each individual if they believe the WC "deliberately deceived" the public or not. I believe that the WC arrived at the correct conclusion-that LHO shot JFK without assistance. As a political entity, any report could not have been written in a way to satisfy everyone. The mission of my website is to refute theories that lead researchers away from the facts in the JFK case. The H&L theory is, in my opinion, a waste of time as are other theories or areas of research. And I have had several members of the CT community thank me for my work. I appreciate the document (which I point out so as not to embarrass you that you did not locate specifically for me) you located and it helped my work in the Landesberg article which is one of the more ridiculous areas of Armstrong's work.
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Tom,
I'll leave it up to each individual if they believe the WC "deliberately deceived" the public or not. I believe that the WC arrived at the correct conclusion-that LHO shot JFK without assistance. As a political entity, any report could not have been written in a way to satisfy everyone. The mission of my website is to refute theories that lead researchers away from the facts in the JFK case. The H&L theory is, in my opinion, a waste of time as are other theories or areas of research. And I have had several members of the CT community thank me for my work. I appreciate the document (which I point out so as not to embarrass you that you did not locate specifically for me) you located and it helped my work in the Landesberg article which is one of the more ridiculous areas of Armstrong's work.
The mission of my website is to refute theories that lead researchers away from the facts in the JFK case.
Who exactly determines what the facts are in this case?
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.... a waste of time as are other theories or areas of research. And I have had several members of the CT community thank me for my work.
So "several members of the CT community [whatever that is] who wasted their time on "other theories" have "thanked you" for exactly what now?