JFK Assassination Forum
JFK Assassination Discussion & Debate => JFK Assassination Discussion & Debate => Topic started by: Colin Crow on June 20, 2018, 06:57:34 AM
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Most will know that there has been much debate about whether a "roll call" was conducted in the TSBD (or how it was conducted) some time after the shots. It would appear that shortly after the rifle was found on the 6th floor Roy Truly arrived there and informed Will Fritz that employee Lee Oswald was "missing".
We also know that a number of employees were taken to the police dept. for questioning before Oswald was brought into the DPD. These employees were Bill Shelley, Billy Lovelady, Bonnie Ray Williams, Charles Givens, Danny Arce and Jack Dougherty. I have always been interested why these individuals were specifically selected. One might assume that membership of the "floor laying crew" was the factor but Dougherty was not part of that group. In reading reports from various officers I came across the following from Detective Senkel.
(https://image.ibb.co/fveP0J/senkel.jpg)
As you can see Senkel was advised by Fritz to take the employees who had been on the 6th floor that day to City Hall. Now we have the criteria used "those that worked on the 6th floor", thus Dougherty is included. The sequence of events place Senkel on the 6th floor just before the hulls are found. Fritz, Sims and Boyd arrive and Fritz instructs Senkel to identify and take those workers who were on the 6th floor that day to City Hall.
This would appear to be after 1.20pm or so. Senkel then would need to find out who had been on the 6th floor and arrange for their transfer. Senkel got the information from who? Pictures (and movies) of the removal of Shelley, Williams and Arce and their placing in a squad car are available. One might suggest Roy Truly as the person Senkel spoke with, or perhaps it was Shelley. Once the list was compiled those in the group would need to be identified and assembled. Was it at this time that the "roll call" occurred? Maybe around 1.30-1.40pm. Did Truly (or Shelley)mention Oswald as one who should be included? Was it around this time that Truly relays the information to Fritz? Day was processing the rifle on the 6th floor and so it had to be before 2pm. Also Detective Potts arrived at HQ at 2pm and was taking statements from Arce and Dougherty at HQ when Oswald was brought in.
(https://preview.ibb.co/ciLp0J/potts.jpg)
Was this exercise the "roll call"?
We all know Givens was also not present when this occurred. The other person who fit the "worked on the 6th floor that morning" was Buell Frazier. Had he left the building by the time, not been identified or identified himself as being part of the group. So in effect there were three candidates that Truly could have told Fritz about. Oswald, Givens and Frazier.
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Yawn.
Is there a point to all this ?
Truly was mysteriously and unjustifiably trying to draw attention to Saint Oz ?
Is that it ?
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Yawn.
Is there a point to all this ?
Truly was mysteriously and unjustifiably trying to draw attention to Saint Oz ?
Is that it ?
Just trying to put some chronology to all this Howard. Do you disagree with anything I posted so far?
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Now that you've established the chronology, where are you going with this ?
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Now that you've established the chronology, where are you going with this ?
I will take your lack of response to my question to indicate you don?t disagree.
Where are we going with this? I have no idea Howard....it?s called discovery, like other threads I have posted in I find some information and post for others to comment/build on. Let?s see where it leads, I hope others can contribute to build on our understanding of the sequence of events.
Is that ok with you?
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I will take your lack of response to my question to indicate you don?t disagree.
Where are we going with this? I have no idea Howard....it?s called discovery, like other threads I have posted in I find some information and post for others to comment/build on. Let?s see where it leads, I hope others can contribute to build on our understanding of the sequence of events.
Is that ok with you?
Sure Colin, it's fine with me.
I just thought there might have been a purpose to your post.
I thought you were going to build on the chronology and discovery and take it somewhere in a thread you started.
I thought you were going somewhere with this.
Silly me.
Now that you've explained that you have no idea where this is going, I'm sorry I asked.
Is that ok with you ?
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Sure Colin, it's fine with me.
I just thought there might have been a purpose to your post.
I thought you were going to build on the chronology and discovery and take it somewhere in a thread you started.
I thought you were going somewhere with this.
Silly me.
Now that you've explained that you have no idea where this is going, I'm sorry I asked.
Is that ok with you ?
I have no idea where it will lead other than hopefully a better understanding of events....that?s why I am here.
You might recall that many CTs deny a roll call ever occurred, I am using contemporaneous reports to suggest a means how and why such an event could have evolved.
It?s ok with me that you?re sorry you asked. Maybe reflect on why you did.
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Are you sure you don't have a point to make regarding 'the mysterious roll call' ?
Was kinda hoping for another epic 'bags and bones' type thread. Maybe even a 'studebaker created 142' bonanza.
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I recall Frazier confirming there was a roll call. I think as part of an interview with Gary Mack. Whether it happened or not, Oswald was missing. No one disputes that. That is the important point. It doesn't seem particularly sinister that Truly noticed him missing. Truly knew due to his encounter in the lunch room that Oswald was one of the few employees in the building during the assassination. He noticed that Oswald was one of the few employees missing after the assassination. It wouldn't take Sherlock Holmes to conclude that it was worth reporting.
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Just putting it out there what I found in the reports. It looks like Fritz asked Senkel to gather those on the 6th floor. Seems logical. Explains why Dougherty was included. As I said maybe this was the genesis of the "roll call" maybe not. Maybe the details of those employees inside were taken in a separate action and then a separate specific round up occurred. point is that Senkel had to have been told by someone who was on the 6th floor or ask for those present to come forward.
The interesting thing is that we know Frazier was on the 6th floor that morning and yet was not included with those to go to City Hall. It seems he left the building around this time. Did he leave before the round up and if not how did he avoid going to City Hall?
I believe these are valid questions.
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Eddie Piper gave the following account about some sort of, what he called, "lineup":
From his WC testimony:
Mr. BALL. Did you at anytime after the shooting miss Lee Oswald---did you notice he wasn't around?
Mr. PIPER. No, sir; I didn't notice it until the lineup. You know, I just figured all the people was there.
Mr. BALL. You did notice it at the lineup, did you?
Mr. PIPER. Yes.
Mr. BALL. Tell us about that.
Mr. PIPER. I did notice it in the lineup.
Mr. BALL. What do you mean by the lineup?
Mr. PIPER. I mean, when they lined us all up and told us to give our name and address and just to go home.
Mr. BALL. You say "they"; who do you mean?
Mr. PIPER. The detective---whoever it was.
Mr. BALL. The police?
Mr. PIPER. Yes; they had the building all surrounded. They went to locking the doors back and front and told us to all come up and then go home, and I told him, I says, "I've got to go down in the basement and get my clothes," and he said, "You can go down and get your clothes and come on back up here, but give me your identification and your name and tell us where you are staying," and everybody heard me say that, I guess, and he let us out of the building, one by one, and I went on out the front door.
He doesn't explain who the "all" were. The manual workers? All workers?
Bugliosi's account has DPD detectives getting a list of names and addresses of the employees in the building from the personnel department. Apparently they, the detectives, then went and interviewed each employee in the building and checked them against their list. If Piper's account is true they had some sort of list they used.
Whether one wants to call that a "roll call" or not is another question.
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Eddie Piper gave the following account about some sort of, what he called, "lineup":
From his WC testimony:
Mr. BALL. Did you at anytime after the shooting miss Lee Oswald---did you notice he wasn't around?
Mr. PIPER. No, sir; I didn't notice it until the lineup. You know, I just figured all the people was there.
Mr. BALL. You did notice it at the lineup, did you?
Mr. PIPER. Yes.
Mr. BALL. Tell us about that.
Mr. PIPER. I did notice it in the lineup.
Mr. BALL. What do you mean by the lineup?
Mr. PIPER. I mean, when they lined us all up and told us to give our name and address and just to go home.
Mr. BALL. You say "they"; who do you mean?
Mr. PIPER. The detective---whoever it was.
Mr. BALL. The police?
Mr. PIPER. Yes; they had the building all surrounded. They went to locking the doors back and front and told us to all come up and then go home, and I told him, I says, "I've got to go down in the basement and get my clothes," and he said, "You can go down and get your clothes and come on back up here, but give me your identification and your name and tell us where you are staying," and everybody heard me say that, I guess, and he let us out of the building, one by one, and I went on out the front door.
He doesn't explain who the "all" were. The manual workers? All workers?
Bugliosi's account has DPD detectives getting a list of names and addresses of the employees in the building from the personnel department. Apparently they, the detectives, then went and interviewed each employee in the building and checked them against their list. If Piper's account is true they had some sort of list they used.
Whether one wants to call that a "roll call" or not is another question.
I don?t disagree Steve. But Stenkel's report makes it clear that Fritz specifically wanted those on the 6th floor that day rounded up and taken to HQ for questioning. It appears likely that all those inside had their names etc taken before being allowed to leave as per Piper's recollection. It seems that this was a separate action. I seem to remember Frazier recalling something similar. Point is, he was on the 6th floor and managed is some way not to be taken to HQ. Did he not identify himself? Was he not noticed by Shelley or the others on the 6th floor. Or had he left before it happened?
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Another candidate that was on the 6th floor that morning that was not taken to City Hall.
Mr. BALL. Did you ever go to the sixth floor that day, that morning?
Mr. NORMAN. I can't---yes, I went up that morning during the time I think they were laying the floor up there when I went up there.
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After the president was shot, around 12:30 p.m., police instructed managers at the school book depository to gather the employees for a roll call. Oswald was the only one missing.
This was a Dallas News opinion article written 50 years later. No one was interviewed and said that.
I recall Frazier confirming there was a roll call. I think as part of an interview with Gary Mack. Whether it happened or not, Oswald was missing. No one disputes that.
How would anyone have known that he was missing and the only person who was..if there wasn't a gathering of all the employees from all the offices of all the companies that occupied the building?
Are you sure you don't have a point to make regarding 'the mysterious roll call' ?
Gee we guess so. There was no roll call.
Another 'Roll Call' thread grew here... https://www.jfkassassinationforum.com/index.php?topic=625.20
Notice the absurd made up conclusions from the WR defenders ::)
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This was a Dallas News opinion article written 50 years later. No one was interviewed and said that.How would anyone have known that he was missing and the only person who was..if there wasn't a gathering of all the employees from all the offices of all the companies that occupied the building? Gee we guess so. There was no roll call.
Another 'Roll Call' thread grew here... https://www.jfkassassinationforum.com/index.php?topic=625.20
Notice the absurd made up conclusions from the WR defenders ::)
Even though Karen Westbrook mis-identified self-described American Indian Stella Mae Jacob, and her two colleagues Gloria Holt and Sharon Simmons in the Z-film as "... uh ... probably Carol Reed, Gloria Calvert (sic), and me, Karen Westbrook!", she said in her same 2017 Sixth Floor Museum interview that shortly after she ran back into the TSBD there was a roll call, so since it was not a from-behind Z-film-based recollection, she was probably right about that.
Maybe.
-- MWT ;)
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Even though Karen Westbrook mis-identified self-described American Indian Stella Mae Jacob, and her two colleagues Gloria Holt and Sharon Simmons in the Z-film as "... uh ... probably Carol Reed, Gloria Calvert (sic), and me, Karen Westbrook!", she said in her same 2017 Sixth Floor Museum interview that shortly after she ran back into the TSBD, there was a roll call, so since that was not a Z-film-based recollection, she was probably right about that. Maybe.
I am not familiar with these other witnesses.
They worked for Roy Truly? Did they submit testimony concerning a roll call? Truly is the source of a missing Oswald. He did not mention a roll call nor was he asked about one in his deposition before the WC. This roll call stuff apparently [out of the blue] became part of the official narrative and was accepted with everything else as gospel.
Mr. BALL. Now, what did you tell Chief Lumpkin when you came down from the roof of the building?
Mr. TRULY. When I noticed this boy was missing, I told Chief Lumpkin that "We have a man here that's missing." I said, "It may not mean anything, but he isn't here." I first called down to the other warehouse and had Mr. Akin pull the application of the boy so I could get--quickly get his address in Irving and his general description, so I could be more accurate than I would be.
Mr. BALL. Was he the only man missing?
Mr. TRULY. The only one I noticed at that time.
Mentioned in another post... Truly had just seen Oswald in the lunchroom and then went upstairs so why would it seemingly dawn on him that all of a sudden Lee had vanished to parts unknown? Did he look for him again? Doesn't say. Did he have someone else search for him? Didn't say. He was compelled though.. to go and report him to the police..so he said.
Obviously, something else was going on. After 5 or 6 months of preparation that is all he said and that is officially all we have.
http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/russ/testimony/truly1.htm
http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/russ/testimony/truly2.htm
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I am not familiar with these other witnesses.
Dear Jerry,
Why don't you google [ "Stella Mae Jacob" JFK ]?
-- MWT ;)
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I believe the so called "roll call" is a combination of the following.
Mr. STERN - Then you got inside the building and what did you do?
Mr. SORRELS - I asked for the manager, and I was directed to Mr. Truly. He was standing there.
I went up and identified myself to him. I said, "I want to get a stenographer, and we would like to have you put down the names and addresses of every employee of the building, in the building."
Mr. STERN - What was your purpose in asking for a list of the employees of the building?
Mr. SORRELS - Because I knew that they would have to be interviewed. I was trying to establish at that time without any delay, who all was in that building or was employed there, because I knew they would have to be talked to later.
In other words, I was looking for someone that saw something.
Mr. STERN - You were looking for potential witnesses?
Mr. SORRELS - Yes, sir.
Sorrels arrived just before 1pm. His actions seem perfectly reasonable.
We also have the report by Senkel that after the shells were found but before the rifle was found (about 1.15pm) Fritz ordered him to take all employees who had been on the 6th floor that day downtown for questioning. So some employees were "in line" on the first floor providing details etc after 1pm and Senkel was determining the 6th floor workers. Presumably he got that information from Truly and or Shelley. Not hard to see that the following individuals would come under attention. Oswald, who had been noticed by Truly in the building after the shooting but was now long gone and Givens, who had been seen by Truly leaving the building well before the shooting.
Others of interest were, Frazier and Norman, who had both been on the 6th floor but was not taken down to City Hall with the flooring crew and Dougherty for reasons unknown as they too fit the criteria for making affidavits as per Fritz's instruction to Senkel. Presumably both were still present in the TSBD at that time or they would have been reported missing too, same as Oswald.
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Even though Karen Westbrook mis-identified self-described American Indian Stella Mae Jacob, and her two colleagues Gloria Holt and Sharon Simmons in the Z-film as "... uh ... probably Carol Reed, Gloria Calvert (sic), and me, Karen Westbrook!", she said in her same 2017 Sixth Floor Museum interview that shortly after she ran back into the TSBD there was a roll call, so since it was not a from-behind Z-film-based recollection, she was probably right about that.
Maybe.
Captain Obsession here won?t rest until every thread is about his three women.
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HG , it would do you good to sit back and take this whole " Roll Call " for what it was intended to be ! This forum is for all of us and we don't need anyone prodding us along to get to the gist of it all .
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Mike...Howie hasn't been here since the 1st of the year. Maybe he put us all on ignore ::)