JFK Assassination Forum
JFK Assassination Discussion & Debate => JFK Assassination Discussion & Debate => Topic started by: Michael Walton on June 08, 2018, 09:43:17 PM
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Fritz was a little bit on the beady eyed and shifty eyed. Like a lot of things that weekend, things could have been and should have been but weren't.
So I ask - did Will Fritz know it was going to happen? Does his shifty-eyed look indicate he knew Ruby was going to move in and do the deed? Is it obvious he knew it was going to happen and broke the ring of protection, then ever-so-slowly turns around to look *after* the shot was fired. Kind of like an over casual "What...me worry" look while the young fella was scared spombleprofglidnoctobunsless by the same shot?
Or is it all just one big happenstance?
(https://1.bp.blogspot.com/-Yvtp2U_ORGw/WxrqDsypFNI/AAAAAAAAFRA/O3mdZLYb_WcBQ1VSAa0ADx5ohiQVds6kACLcBGAs/s1600/Fritz-Wide-Open.gif)
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So I ask - did Will Fritz know it was going to happen?
I'd say the odds are pretty short that he did.
Whether he did or not it still makes me wonder why the sacrifice of major player Ruby for the job.
I mean as I understand it he is very much not a Kennedy or even staunch patriot man. 8) ;)
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It was denied, but just about every cop on the force knew 'Good ole' Jack'.
very much not a Kennedy man
Much like his police friends.
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So I ask - did Will Fritz know it was going to happen?
Whether he did or not it still makes me wonder why the sacrifice of major player Ruby for the job.
There is evidence had mob ties. He was making calls to Mob people before the murder. LNers will say "so what" but how many Mob people do YOU know? Evidence shows he ran guns to Cuba back in the 50's too. From Spartacus:
In his book, Crime of the Century, Michael Kurtz points out: "In the month prior to the assassination, Ruby telephoned Irwin Weiner, a "frontman for organized crime"; Robert "Barney" Baker, an associate of Jimmy Hoffa's; Nofio J. Pecora, a lieutenant of the reputed Louisiana Mafia boss Carlos Marcello; Lewis McWillie, who had ties with organized crime figures Santos Trafficante and Meyer Lansky; and Murray "Dusty" Miller, another individual closely allied with Hoffa and the Mafia."
In his book, JFK: The Second Plot (1992), Matthew Smith points out that Thomas H. Killam, a man who worked for Jack Ruby, claimed that there was a link between his former employer, Lee Harvey Oswald and the Mafia. He told his brother, "I am a dead man, but I have run as far as I am running." Killam was found dead in an alley with his throat cut in March, 1964. Smith points out that Dorothy Kilgallenalso died in mysterious circumstances after interviewing Ruby in prison in November 1965.
http://spartacus-educational.com/JFKSruby.htm (http://spartacus-educational.com/JFKSruby.htm)
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There is evidence had mob ties. He was making calls to Mob people before the murder. LNers will say "so what" but how many Mob people do YOU know? Evidence shows he ran guns to Cuba back in the 50's too. From Spartacus:
In his book, Crime of the Century, Michael Kurtz points out: "In the month prior to the assassination, Ruby telephoned Irwin Weiner, a "frontman for organized crime"; Robert "Barney" Baker, an associate of Jimmy Hoffa's; Nofio J. Pecora, a lieutenant of the reputed Louisiana Mafia boss Carlos Marcello; Lewis McWillie, who had ties with organized crime figures Santos Trafficante and Meyer Lansky; and Murray "Dusty" Miller, another individual closely allied with Hoffa and the Mafia."
In his book, JFK: The Second Plot (1992), Matthew Smith points out that Thomas H. Killam, a man who worked for Jack Ruby, claimed that there was a link between his former employer, Lee Harvey Oswald and the Mafia. He told his brother, "I am a dead man, but I have run as far as I am running." Killam was found dead in an alley with his throat cut in March, 1964. Smith points out that Dorothy Kilgallenalso died in mysterious circumstances after interviewing Ruby in prison in November 1965.
http://spartacus-educational.com/JFKSruby.htm (http://spartacus-educational.com/JFKSruby.htm)
Thomas H. Killam, a man who worked for Jack Ruby, claimed that there was a link between his former employer, Lee Harvey Oswald and the Mafia.
Why....Is Lee Oswald always included?? As if he was a active and knowing participant in the plot that concluded with his own death.
Lee was a nothing but a naive and trusting dupe....a patsy..... A kid with illusions of James Bond running through his head. Lee wasn't stupid....He would have been smart enough to realize that any assassin would never escape alive.
He would have known that any active role in the murder of the President would be the end of his life....and he clearly denied any active role when he said...."I'm just a patsy!"
And as for blaming the coup on another "boogie man" in the recognized villainy of the "Mafia" to allow secure comfort in blaming a known villain ....that's just a way of avoiding the uncomfortable FACTS that the "evil Mafia" did not have the power to control the autopsy or the sham "investigation".
The "mafia" that was responsible for the murder of John Kennedy was controlled by the ultimate "Godfather" ...John Edgar Hoover.
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Fritz was a little bit on the beady eyed and shifty eyed. Like a lot of things that weekend, things could have been and should have been but weren't.
So I ask - did Will Fritz know it was going to happen?
I posted this in the "Ramp' thread-
A look from a different camera. He looked like a nonchalant zombie .......
https://www.jfkassassinationforum.com/index.php/topic,737.msg17991.html#msg17991
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I posted this in the "Ramp' thread-
A look from a different camera. He looked like a nonchalant zombie .......
https://www.jfkassassinationforum.com/index.php/topic,737.msg17991.html#msg17991
That settles it then. He was in on it. What's that make it? About 50 or 60 in on it?
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did Will Fritz know it was going to happen?
No
Does his shifty-eyed look indicate he knew Ruby was going to move in and do the deed?
No
Is it obvious he knew it was going to happen and broke the ring of protection
No
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I posted this in the "Ramp' thread-
A look from a different camera. He looked like a nonchalant zombie .......
https://www.jfkassassinationforum.com/index.php/topic,737.msg17991.html#msg17991
OMG amazing video. Glad you put that here.
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Even if Captain Fritz was not involved in the Murder of Oswald, his carelessness was inexcusable. He should not have walked ahead so quickly thereby exposing Oswald from the front.That gave Ruby an opening to shoot. I am undecided regarding whether Fritz was involved or not. Still his carelessness helped and deserves at least part of the blame for Oswald's death.
Fred
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Fritz was a little bit on the beady eyed and shifty eyed. Like a lot of things that weekend, things could have been and should have been but weren't.
So I ask - did Will Fritz know it was going to happen? Does his shifty-eyed look indicate he knew Ruby was going to move in and do the deed? Is it obvious he knew it was going to happen and broke the ring of protection, then ever-so-slowly turns around to look *after* the shot was fired. Kind of like an over casual "What...me worry" look while the young fella was scared spombleprofglidnoctobunsless by the same shot?
Or is it all just one big happenstance?
(https://1.bp.blogspot.com/-Yvtp2U_ORGw/WxrqDsypFNI/AAAAAAAAFRA/O3mdZLYb_WcBQ1VSAa0ADx5ohiQVds6kACLcBGAs/s1600/Fritz-Wide-Open.gif)
A while ago I came acroos a colour photo, taken before Oswald was led out, of the building into the car park, and it showed a whole bunch of people, gather around the prisoner in a circle with Fritz in the foreground whispering in some other mans ear, I am kicking myself for not saving the image. I think it was on as link which Steve Logan sent to me in a PM before the site crashed? maybe he might remember and resend so we can relocate it?? come in Logan where art thou Logan
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So I ask - did Will Fritz know it was going to happen?
I'd say the odds are pretty short that he did.
Whether he did or not it still makes me wonder why the sacrifice of major player Ruby for the job.
I mean as I understand it he is very much not a Kennedy or even staunch patriot man. 8) ;)
He was a Jew and the KKK W.A.S.P's did not want to sacrifice any of their own anglo saxons, so he was perfect, to have a Jew silence the communist for allegedly killing the Catholic, why that's 3 birds with 1 stone
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Fritz's low key reaction, making sure the young man stayed back from the car rather than react to the sound of shots, just looks too spooky and he was one scary SOB in those hallway tapes. I say yes, he showed everyone who was in charge of this case, in his town and marched Lee to a prearranged hit.
Surely this wasn't the first to die in custody during Fritz's reign and how many has he killed/seriously injured legally during his working life?
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Fritz's low key reaction, making sure the young man stayed back from the car rather than react to the sound of shots, just looks too spooky and he was one scary SOB in those hallway tapes. I say yes, he showed everyone who was in charge of this case, in his town and marched Lee to a prearranged hit.
Surely this wasn't the first to die in custody during Fritz's reign and how many has he killed/seriously injured legally during his working life?
I agree Barry it looks like he might even have helped fill poor oul Bonny&Clyde full of lead, this guy did not believe in taking prisoners.
Fritz headed homicide team at DPD. He joined DPD in 1921 and reportedly had been part of the squad that hunted Bonnie and Clyde. Carlton Stowers, an author and former Dallas Observer staffer, described Fritz in his book Partners in Blue as someone who organized a seemingly well-run department and didn't appreciate interference from the brass. His competency seems demonstrated by a 10-year span with a reported 98 percent clearance rate of the murders in Dallas. The rate of today's department hovers at around 50 percent.
The Texas State Historical Association's biography of Fritz seems to span dime-store novel genres. His first career centered on horse and mule trading in West Texas and New Mexico until he stumbled into law enforcement in Dallas. He does not appear to be much of a career opportunist.
"Though he was made inspector of detectives in 1935, he voluntarily returned to being a captain in 1944," TSHA notes. "In 1947 he received the special title of senior captain, and later he reportedly refused the opportunity to become police chief."
This doesn't fit the profile of an attention-seeking cop. But in the days after Kennedy was killed, Hoover was furious at Fritz for speaking to the media
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I realize I have a heavy bias, but the action of these individuals in this film just seems unnatural, staged, whatever I thought I remembered an earlier thread where there was some indication that they rehearsed this thing a couple of times
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I realize I have a heavy bias, but the action of these individuals in this film just seems unnatural, staged, whatever I thought I remembered an earlier thread where there was some indication that they rehearsed this thing a couple of times
If you ever find that 'indication' post it here. I would be flabbergasted if there was a rehearsal. Discussions took place so that there was some sort of plan to walk Oswald straight to the transportation but nothing like an action rehearsal.
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Interesting Michael ty.
98% clearance rate? I'm no expert but I can think of only one way to do that and that's rail-roading people.
Also I'm wondering whether Hoover getting mad had any effect on him? I mean he barely talked in the first place, that "this case is synched" line though, slightly premature, perhaps.
"Hey Captain, it's the big fruit on line 1, he's pissed again".
Seriously though, I'll go read something.
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'By Gosh...Don't get any blood on my car'
(https://i0.wp.com/www.septclues.com/USA%20FAKERY/rubykillsoswald-01_5030997_GIFSoup.com.gif?resize=980%2C9999)
The car had honked twice...first honk - get ready and then the next - GO!
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The car pulling in is to pick up Oswald? Hard to understand why a car would be pulling in at this moment
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'By Gosh...Don't get any blood on my car'
(https://i0.wp.com/www.septclues.com/USA%20FAKERY/rubykillsoswald-01_5030997_GIFSoup.com.gif?resize=980%2C9999)
The car had honked twice...first honk - get ready and then the next - GO!
So the driver of the car is the one who gave the Go! signal? It's a wonder that he wasn't so preoccupied that he failed to run over Fritz.
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So the driver of the car is the one who gave the Go! signal? It's a wonder that he wasn't so preoccupied that he failed to run over Fritz.
Even more amazing is how close he came to running over Ruby.
It almost looks like Jack's left leg is hit by the car driven by the 'signal man'.
Ready...Set....You better go, or I'll run your a$$ over.
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Starting at 1:24 ...... this reporter guy looks right at - Jack Ruby ..and then shakes his head at him like 'Gotta love it'.
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What would history have looked like if this guy ran over Ruby right as he was trying to shoot Oswald?
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What would history have looked like if this guy ran over Ruby right as he was trying to shoot Oswald?
Very different. It didn't even require a car hitting Ruby to have given us a new present day. Simply preventing reporters into the building spilling into corridors etc would result in an excellent chance of Oswald standing trial. If Ruby wasn't asked by Carlin to wire her some money he probably wouldn't have been in the vicinity to have gunned him down. It's often little things that glue historical facts together and without them, events take a different course.
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I get that Steve Just wondering what the headlines would look like I am giving Ruby more credit than I did before This car is honking at him and almost running him over and he apparently is so focused, or oblivious, he carries on unfazed Certainly Ruby could not have anticipated a car trying to hit him during this. Unless this was the part they needed to rehearse
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I get that Steve Just wondering what the headlines would look like I am giving Ruby more credit than I did before This car is honking at him and almost running him over and he apparently is so focused, or oblivious, he carries on unfazed Certainly Ruby could not have anticipated a car trying to hit him during this. Unless this was the part they needed to rehearse
Come on Matt. Have you never been 'in the zone' when playing a sport or when anger starts to consume you? I expect most people could relate to that. Ruby was observed by his staff acting like a madman when bouncing customers down the stairs then minutes later wonder what had gotten hold of him.
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Come on Matt. Have you never been 'in the zone' when playing a sport or when anger starts to consume you? I expect most people could relate to that. Ruby was observed by his staff acting like a madman when bouncing customers down the stairs then minutes later wonder what had gotten hold of him.
I said I was impressed with his focus, but if there were rehearsals he loses points. I am mostly just joking around Steve Not everything need be behind are battle lines
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Starting at 1:24 ...... this reporter guy looks right at - Jack Ruby ..and then shakes his head at him like 'Gotta love it'.
There's a longer version of that somewhere out there Jerry where IIRC, he's not smiling at him but clocking him hard, like he's concered and Ruby leans near him and could almost mutter something to him. I'd love to know who that reporter was and if he went on the record with anything significant.
Also that line "mind the car", beautiful.
I see the vehicle pulling up snd honking as a distraction, that would have needed to be coordinated with someone outside who could see them coming and give the driver a nod. Correct me if I'm wrong but LHO was leaving in an armoured truck, not a low vehicle with windows easy enough to throw bricks through.
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This is what it would have looked like if the car had run over Ruby throwing his shot off. Or even better, if Oswald had had a lawyer working with him from day one:
(https://3.bp.blogspot.com/-AsDVVFd88Nw/Wy_H1VRGFXI/AAAAAAAAFS4/poGODLo4W1kYd8PUXPmMnj9_U59DJznaACLcBGAs/s1600/oswald-innocent.jpg)
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I am not especially fond of predicting the what if questions, but it is an arena that shows the style of logical inference one carries with them so it does have value It also gives insights to I guess what you call system analysis, or in other words insight into the power mechanisms that were in place at the time Amway I find it more likely Oswald gets convicted, most likely by minimizing what he is allowed to testify to based on national security state secrets etc Also the temperament of the jury seems likely tilted for wanting to convict An example might be in regard to 9/11, if Atta had not conveniently provided all the details of the plot with the suitcase in the trunk, along with the apparent lack of the hijackers using their real names in the passenger manifests, then we would have been no way of determining who carried it off In my opinion this country, and perhaps most, would just come unglued I am not sure there is a word that totally defines what I am getting at.Overwhelming Cognitive dissonance
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There's a longer version of that somewhere out there where he's not smiling at him but Correct me if I'm wrong but LHO was leaving in an armoured truck, not a low vehicle with windows easy enough to throw bricks through.
Hopefully, you can find a link to that clip.
One slightly delay might be changing plans when they realize the armored
car was too tall to fit under the hanging lights so they used it as a
decoy and then got a car to take away Oswald.
https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/alt.assassination.jfk/dRI4Jcx7grY
An initial plan to load him inside a waiting armored police vehicle was scratched when it wouldn't fit through the entrance because of low-hanging air conditioners.
http://www.nydailynews.com/news/national/jfk-assassin-article-1.1514569
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As with so many, out of the ordinary things, happening that whole weekend and since hindsight is 20/20, it is a miracle that more people were not killed during the chaos that followed, once JFK was assassinated. There had to be a head-honcho guiding all of these bizarre happenings from the time JFK was shot and on thru the weekend and ending on Monday with JFK's funeral and burial . I thought it was very odd for the burials of JFK , J.D. Tippit , and Lee Harvey Oswald to happen so soon after their deaths. JFK murdered on Friday the 22nd and buried on Monday the 25th , Tippit is murdered on the 22nd and buried on the 25th and Oswald is murdered on the 24th and buried on November 25th just like JFK and Tippit . What was the hurry to get these 3 buried so quickly ? Who was running the " SHOW " that weekend . Did J. Edgar Hoover throw his weight around during that time . Fritz just seemed to be one of many along with Henry Wade who basically had the case wrapped up as did J. Edgar Hoover. Do you really think it was just happenstance that Ruby wandered down the ramp and shot Oswald in front of the world ? As they say , Oswald was actually moved later than he was supposed to be which made it look like Ruby just happen to wander in and be lucky enough to do his job which was to take out Oswald before he got a chance to talk . They might have waited until Ruby was in place before bringing Oswald out , to be shot . And the "Suits" bring the Carcano to the morgue and put ink on Orswalds hands and then put the rifle in Oswalds hands . Paul Groody said it was very hard trying to get the ink off of Oswalds hands .
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Hopefully, you can find a link to that clip.
https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/alt.assassination.jfk/dRI4Jcx7grY
http://www.nydailynews.com/news/national/jfk-assassin-article-1.1514569
That longer version has to be in DVP's collection somewhere Jerry but perhaps I saw it in one of the many 50th anniversary documenteries.
Sure the truck couldn't get down the ramp np but:
a) why not escort him up the ramp to it on foot?
b) if the knew even 10m in advance they needed another vehicle, why is it only pulling up at the very last second?
Coincidence? Sure, it happens, but suspicious? Yes, very.
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For what it's worth, I stumbled upon this (triggered by a post by Caprio), CE 2003, page 197:
https://historymatters.com/archive/jfk/wc/wcvols/wh24/html/WH_Vol24_0159b.htm
It's Dhority backing Fritz's car into the basement but is late due to the crowd of reporters. He should have been along the door from the jail office. Check it out.
Thanks for the link, Tom.... I never realized that they questioned Lee Oswald for nearly two hours immediately before they moved him into the basement where and Ruby and his Colt bulldog were waiting.
Something was being coordinated ......