JFK Assassination Forum
JFK Assassination Discussion & Debate => JFK Assassination Discussion & Debate => Topic started by: Matt Grantham on June 01, 2018, 09:06:15 PM
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If the LN folks could ever just pose the question of what happened to the bullet that the CT claim entered the front in something other the all or nothing nature we generally see, it might lead to a more reasonable response I for one, am of course quite troubled by the question and it is indeed a significant quandary However imo, it is no less of a mystery, or quandary, than all the problems associated with the back and throat wounds being in alignment and only penetrating soft tissue etc
I never saw one response to whether the bullet could have gone in JFK's lung perhaps since many here seem more focused on ridicule to address other possibilities
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If the LN folks could ever just pose the question of what happened to the bullet that the CT claim entered the front in something other the all or nothing nature we generally see, it might lead to a more reasonable response I for one, am of course quite troubled by the question and it is indeed a significant quandary However imo, it is no less of a mystery, or quandary, than all the problems associated with the back and throat wounds being in alignment and only penetrating soft tissue etc
I never saw one response to whether the bullet could have gone in JFK's lung perhaps since many here seem more focused on ridicule to address other possibilities
How many times are you going to post how unhappy you are with the way people exchange communications here? Stop your whining.
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How many times are you going to post how unhappy you are with the way people exchange communications here? Stop your whining.
Examples please? I posted one other to anything near that effect which I am aware of and that was aimed at crediting someone for staying out of it It is not even a complaint for Christs sake it is a belief that such strategies wind up with people dealing less with facts and more with insults Do you need the definition of complaining spelled out for you? They usually take the predicate of I hate, I wish, why can't etc But the whiners meme is so much more appealing for those whose purpose is to insult. ridicule etc
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If the LN folks could ever just pose the question of what happened to the bullet that the CT claim entered the front in something other the all or nothing nature we generally see, it might lead to a more reasonable response I for one, am of course quite troubled by the question and it is indeed a significant quandary However imo, it is no less of a mystery, or quandary, than all the problems associated with the back and throat wounds being in alignment and only penetrating soft tissue etc
I never saw one response to whether the bullet could have gone in JFK's lung perhaps since many here seem more focused on ridicule to address other possibilities
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I feel that the early arrival of JFK at Bethesda in the shipping casket gave those who were going to make some extra wounds to the top of the head more time to make it look like a rear head shot . I think that the bullets were removed from JFK's back and neck shots . The frontal neck shot and the back shot do not match up and never did match up , even after Jerry Ford moved the back shot entrance higher up to try and make the Magic Bullet Theory have a chance to work. As Thomas Robinson said , "That's what the Drs. did ", which was to create an injury to the top of the head that would try to insure a shot from the rear on the back of JFK's head . I might be one of the few who thinks the frontal shot through the windshield might have been the bullet that hits Kennedy in the throat and with the projectile slowing down on it's trip thru the windshield ,might have just made the frontal entry shot to JFK's neck . We have a very good idea that the Tracheostomy done on JFK did not leave a garbled up front neck injury that we see at Bethesda. Thomas Robinson said that during the process of embalmment that there were some very small fine leaks around the face of JFK and that could be very small pieces of glass that went thru the windshields through and through hole and traveling toward the back of the car where JFK was. I think all bullets were removed before the actual autopsy began . A found bullet would mean there was not a chance of a bullet going thru JFK and on into John Connally.
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Great job pasting that Youtube link Bill! That's some impressive research.
As for the actual video. That's 6 minutes of life that nobody will ever get back. Here we see a guy named Steve Shives use the usual LN tactic of argument by appeal to ridicule, without ever actually addressing any reasons for believing the narrative.
His "5 Stupid things":
1. The endless list of potential suspects
This is the usual strawman that says that every CT believes every conjecture that has ever been brought forth. As an amusing aside he talks here about preferring the "explanation that requires the fewest assumptions" as if the WC explanation isn't absolutely loaded with assumptions.
2. The equally endless list of possible motives
As opposed to the WC's lack of any motive.
3. The lack of a coherent counter-narrative
As opposed to the WC's lack of a coherent narrative to begin with.
4. They attract people who aren't normally conspiracy theorists
I'm not sure why he considers this "stupid". But this may have something to do with this case being nothing like conspiracy theories like the moon landing hoax or Bigfoot, despite some LNers' best attempts to paint them with the same brush to avoid actually talking about the evidence.
5. They combine to form the perfect storm of conspiracy theories
Also not about anything stupid. I think Steve lost his train of thought halfway though the video. Here he shows a cute graphic with JFK's picture and the quote "Ask not what the evidence says happened. Ask what sounds good to you". Which in fact describes perfectly how the WC came to their conclusion.
Nice try, but a giant fail on multiple levels.
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Mr. SPECTER - Did you see any wound on any other part of his body?
Miss HENCHLIFFE - Yes; in the neck.
Mr. SPECTER - Will you describe it, please?
Miss HENCHLIFFE - It was just a little hole in the middle of his neck.
Mr. SPECTER - About how big a hole was it?
Miss HENCHLIFFE - About as big around as the end of my little finger.
Mr. SPECTER - Have you ever had any experience with bullet holes?
Miss HENCHLIFFE - Yes.
Mr. SPECTER - And what did that appear to you to be?
Miss HENCHLIFFE - An entrance bullet hole it looked to me like.
Mr. SPECTER - Could it have been an exit bullet hole?
Miss HENCHLIFFE - I have never seen an exit bullet hole I don't remember seeing one that looked like that.
Mr. SPECTER - What were the characteristics of the hole?
Miss HENCHLIFFE - It was just a little round---just a little round hole, just a little round jagged-looking---jagged a little bit.
Mr. SPECTER - What experience have you had in observing bullet holes, Miss Henchliffe?
Miss HENCHLIFFE - Well, we take care of a lot of bullet wounds down there--I don't know how many a year.
Mr. SPECTER - Have you ever had any formal studies of bullet holes?
Miss HENCHLIFFE - Oh, no; nothing except my experience in the emergency room.
Mr. SPECTER - In what?
Miss HENCHLIFFE - In the emergency room is all.
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I feel that the early arrival of JFK at Bethesda in the shipping casket gave those who were going to make some extra wounds to the top of the head more time to make it look like a rear head shot . I think that the bullets were removed from JFK's back and neck shots . The frontal neck shot and the back shot do not match up and never did match up , even after Jerry Ford moved the back shot entrance higher up to try and make the Magic Bullet Theory have a chance to work. As Thomas Robinson said , "That's what the Drs. did ", which was to create an injury to the top of the head that would try to insure a shot from the rear on the back of JFK's head . I might be one of the few who thinks the frontal shot through the windshield might have been the bullet that hits Kennedy in the throat and with the projectile slowing down on it's trip thru the windshield ,might have just made the frontal entry shot to JFK's neck . We have a very good idea that the Tracheostomy done on JFK did not leave a garbled up front neck injury that we see at Bethesda. Thomas Robinson said that during the process of embalmment that there were some very small fine leaks around the face of JFK and that could be very small pieces of glass that went thru the windshields through and through hole and traveling toward the back of the car where JFK was. I think all bullets were removed before the actual autopsy began . A found bullet would mean there was not a chance of a bullet going thru JFK and on into John Connally.
"I might be one of the few who thinks the frontal shot through the windshield might have been the bullet that hits Kennedy in the throat and with the projectile slowing down on it's trip thru the windshield"
A frontal shot through the windshield?
Are you joking?
"Thomas Robinson said that during the process of embalmment that there were some very small fine leaks around the face of JFK and that could be very small pieces of glass that went thru the windshields"
So why didn't Greer or Kellerman have these small pieces of glass in the face?
Why didn't the Connally's?
Why didn't Jackie?
Why not use your brain?
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Mr. Specter - Assuming some factors in addition to those which you personally observed, Dr. Baxter, what would your opinion be if these additional facts were present: First, the President had a bullet wound of entry on the right posterior thorax just above the upper border of the Scapula with the wound measuring 7 by 4 mm. in oval shape, being 14 cm. from the tip of the right acromion process and 14 cm. below the tip of the right mastoid process--assume this is the set of facts, that the wound Just described was caused by a 6.5 mm bullet shot from approximately 160 to 250 feet away from the President, from a weapon having a muzzle velocity of approximately 2,000 feet per second, assuming as a third factor that the bullet passed through the President's body, going in between the strap muscles of the shoulder without violating the pleura space and exited at a point in the midline of the neck, would the hole which you saw on the President's throat be consistent with an exit point, assuming the factors which I have Just given to you?
Dr. Baxter - Although it would be unusual for a high velocity missile of this type to cause a wound as you have described, the passage through tissue planes of this density could have well resulted in the sequence which you outline; namely, that the anterior wound does represent a wound of exit.
Mr. Specter - What would be the considerations which, in your mind, would make it, as you characterized it, unlikely?
Dr. Baxter - It would be unlikely because the damage that the bullet would create would be---first its speed would create a shock wave which would damage a larger number of tissues, as in its path, it would tend to strike, or usually would strike, tissues of greater density than this particular missile did and would then begin to tumble and would create larger jagged--the further it went, the more jagged would be the damage that it created; so that ordinarily there would have been a rather large wound of exit.
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The conscientious Dr Curtis.....
Mr. SPECTER - Did you observe any perforation or hole in the President's throat?
Dr. CURTIS - No; I didn't. But that doesn't mean it wasn't there.
Mr. SPECTER - Did you have an opportunity to look closely for it?
Dr. CURTIS - I focused my attention on his neck for an instant, and that's all.
Mr. SPECTER - Did you hear any discussion among any of the doctors about an opening on his neck?
Dr. CURTIS - No; I didn't.
Mr. SPECTER - Did you make any written report concerning your activity on the President?
Dr. CURTIS - No; I didn't.
Mr. SPECTER - Have you any notes or writings of any sort concerning your work with the President?
Dr. CURTIS - No.
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From The testimony of Dr. Martin G. White...
Mr. SPECTER - And what did you do in connection with the President's treatment?
Dr. WHITE - I put an intervenous cutdown in the President's right foot.
Mr. SPECTER - Did you have an opportunity to observe any of his wounds?
Dr. WHITE - I saw the wound in his head as he was brought into the trauma room where he was treated.
Mr. SPECTER - Did you observe any other wounds?
Dr. WHITE - No, I did not see any other.
Mr. SPECTER - Did you observe specifically a wound in the neck?
Dr. WHITE - I did not look and did not observe any.
I guess you wouldn't see anything if you don't look ::)
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Once again , how did that small hole in the neck , which had a tracheostomy made over it in Dallas , turn into a very wide gash once JFK's body was at Bethesda and Parkland only saw a small hole in the front of the neck and a large blown out hole in the Occipital area which was in the rear of the head . No one else saw any other wounds on the presidents head . How did the top of JFK's head and the right side of his head become so injured after JFK's body left Dallas ? If the Parkland Drs. had seen the head injuries that Bethesda saw , then the Parkland Drs. would have known that there was no way that JFK could have survived . There is no mystery about what happened to JFK , especially when it comes to the wounds .
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That the top of JFK's head is blown off is evidenced in a number of ways. In the clip below pay particular attention to the shape of JFK's head before the headshot and then to the massive crater that appears in the top of his head immediately after:
(https://i.postimg.cc/RFV4RpQQ/Head-Shot-close.gif) (https://postimages.org/)
The injury is clearly to the top of his head:
(https://i.postimg.cc/jSxdS6qD/z328-3.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)
The gif below was created by John Mytton and clearly shows the massive injury to the top of JFK's head:
(https://i.postimg.cc/SxK2VSdv/JFKAutopsy-Morph.gif) (https://postimages.org/)
And finally, z313 shows two "jets" exiting the top of JFK's head. The more pronounced "jet" is picked out by the red arrow, the lesser one by the yellow arrow.
(https://i.postimg.cc/CMJmBSSm/z313-4.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)
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Strange how some people believe possibly altered frames of a film are gospel.
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That the top of JFK's head is blown off is evidenced in a number of ways.
Why do you change the subject?
Dr. Marion Thomas Jenkins...Parkland Doctor.
Arlen Specter-- prepped with a bunch of technical mumbo jumbo, consistently tells the Parkland doctors and nurses how the throat wound happened and then tries to get them to confirm it.
Mr. SPECTER - Dr. Jenkins, would your observation of the wound and your characterization of it as an exit hole be consistent with a set of facts which I will ask you to assume for purposes of giving me your view or opinion.
Assume, first of all, if you will, that President Kennedy had a wound on the upper right posterior thorax just above the upper border of the scapula, measuring 14 cm. from the tip of the right acromion process and 14 cm. below the tip of the right mastoid process, and that the missile was a 6.5 mm. jacketed bullet fired from a weapon having a muzzle velocity of approximately 2,000 feet per second and approximately 160 to 250 feet from the President, and that after entering the President's body at the point indicated, the missile traveled between two strap muscles and through a fascia plane without violating the pleura cavity, and then struck the right side of the trachea and exited through the throat, would the throat wound which you observed be consistent with such a wound inflicted in the manner I have just described?
Dr. JENKINS - As far as I know, it wouldn't be inconsistent with it, Mr. Specter.
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Strange how some people believe possibly altered frames of a film are gospel.
Well Ray, the CGI tools we have now half a century later are infinitely better at recreating photorealistic images so how about you or your expert mate David Healey re-alter some film frames and then reinsert those frames back into the original and then we can judge if it's actually possible.
JohnM
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Several retired Dallas policemen have files and evidence relating to this case. So far there have been two books from Dallas policemen, Jesse Curry's assassination file, recently there is a book by Gary Savage, I believe, a nephew of Rusty Livingston who worked in the crime lab. This book is called, First Day Evidence. Rusty Livingston would have a lot of evidence and files relating to the case that would be worth looking at.
Specifically in that book, he worked in the crime lab, he mentions a camera which was used to take photographs of photographs, and he mentions that they were of such good quality that the photographs of the photographs could pass for originals. I find that very interesting, and I would ask the review panel if somehow they could acquire that camera. I would like people with more scientific and photographic technical expertise than I have to examine that camera. I would like to look at documents of the Dallas police crime lab, how many photographs of photographs they took, who saw them, where they went, were any used as an original photograph, did that get into the official record, and such.
I would also like to know if the review panel has been in contact with organizations that have photographic evidence like local television stations here in Dallas, the Sixth Floor Museum has a lot of photographs, Southern Methodist University, Dallas Times Herald although no longer in existence as a newspaper must have their archives somewhere, the Dallas Morning News, Fort Worth Star Telegram, and things like that. How would you guys go about getting material from that, or would you need more specific information from someone like me asking them a question?
https://www.jfk-assassination.net/arrb/index78.htm
Revealing that some of the photographic evidence just may have been faked redone altered.
However.... there was nothing further about it.