JFK Assassination Forum
JFK Assassination Discussion & Debate => JFK Assassination Discussion & Debate => Topic started by: Jerry Freeman on May 31, 2018, 06:23:03 PM
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Just to backtrack immediately after the assassination Oswald departs just with the white shirt but apparently goes back in to get the brown overshirt?
There was a thread on this last year. It got really interesting. There was a lot of linked material.
We can try and revive it....
(http://www.patspeer.com/_/rsrc/1269013585390/chapter4b%3A%22theso-calledevidence%22/threads.jpg)
At 12:44, 14 minutes after the shooting, Dallas Police Inspector J. Herbert Sawyer called in a description of the presumed assassin. He announced: "The wanted person in this is a slender white male about 30, 5 feet 10, 165, carrying what looks to be a 30-30 or some type of Winchester." He was then asked to confirm that this was a rifle. He responded: "A rifle, yes." He was then asked "Any clothing description?" He responded "Current witness can't remember that."
As a side note the "slender white male about 30, 5 feet 10, 165" is the same exact description...word for word... of a guy that was in Mexico City claiming to be Lee Oswald. The middle name was also given...but it was not Harvey...it was Henry*
*DIR 84730
This is the Oct. 10, 1963 reply to MEXI 6543, reporting an accurate physical description of Lee "Henry" Oswald.
https://www.history-matters.com/frameup.htm
Meanwhile back to the shirt...
Motorcycle Officer Marrion Baker, who?d encountered Oswald in a stairway within a minute and a half of the shooting, described Oswald's clothing as different than the man seen in the window (11-22-63 Affidavit, 24H199): ?The man I saw was a white man approximately 30 years old, 5?9?, 165 pounds, dark hair and wearing a light brown jacket.?
I just posted this under the Oswald's Jacket thread...
A statement from Wes Frazier's sister.....
Mr. BALL. How was Lee dressed that morning?
Mrs. RANDLE. He had on a white T-shirt, I just saw him from the waist up, I didn't pay any attention to his pants or anything, when he was going with the package. I was more interested in that. But he had on a white T-shirt and I remember some sort of brown or tan shirt and he had a gray jacket, I believe.
The complete post is here..
https://www.jfkassassinationforum.com/index.php/topic,124.msg16375.html#msg16375
There was this Mary Bledsoe woman who stated she was a former landlady of Oswald's.
Mr. BALL - And the bus was going in what direction?
Mrs. BLEDSOE - West.
Mr. BALL - All right, now, tell me what happened?
Mrs. BLEDSOE - And, after we got past Akard, at Murphy---I figured it out. Let's see. I don't know for sure. Oswald got on. He looks like a maniac. His sleeve was out here [indicating]. His shirt was undone.
Mr. BALL - You are indicating a sleeve of a shirt?
Mrs. BLEDSOE - Yes.
Mr. BALL - It was unraveled?
Mrs. BLEDSOE - Was a hole in it, hole, and he was dirty, and I didn't look at him.
****************************************************************
Again asked about the shirt...
Mr. BALL - Now, what color shirt did he have on?
Mrs. BLEDSOE - He had a brown shirt.
Mr. BALL - And unraveled?
Mrs. BLEDSOE - Hole in his sleeve right here [indicating].
Mr. BALL - Which is the elbow of the sleeve? That is, you pointed to the elbow?
Mrs. BLEDSOE - Well, it is.
Mr. BALL - And that would be which elbow, right or left elbow?
Mrs. BLEDSOE - Right.
Mr. BALL - Did he have anything on. Was the shirt open or was it buttoned?
Mrs. BLEDSOE - Yes; all the buttons torn off.
************************************************************
This stuff about the shirt must have really bothered the Commission.
Ball would not let it go.
Mr. BALL - Now, I have got a piece of clothing here, which is marked---
Mrs. BLEDSOE - That is it.
Mr. BALL - Commission Exhibit 150.
Mrs. BLEDSOE - That is it.
Mr. BALL - This is a shirt.
Mrs. BLEDSOE - That is it.
Mr. BALL - What do you mean by "that is it?"
Mrs. BLEDSOE - Because they brought it out to the house and showed it.
Mr. BALL - I know. What do you mean by "that is it?"
Mrs. BLEDSOE - Well, because I can recognize it.
Mr. BALL - Recognize it as what?
Mrs. BLEDSOE - Yes, sir; see there?
Ball goes on and on...
Mr. BALL - Now, what is there about the shirt that makes you believe that this is the shirt that Oswald had on when he was on the bus? What is there about it?
Mrs. BLEDSOE - Well, let's see the front of it. Yes See all this [indicating]? I remember that.
Mr. BALL - Tell me what you see there?
Mrs. BLEDSOE - I saw the---no; not so much that. It was done after---that is part I recognize more than anything.
Mr. BALL - You are pointing to a hole in the right elbow?
Mrs. BLEDSOE - Yes.
Mr. BALL - What about the color?
Mrs. BLEDSOE - Well, I---What do you mean?
Mr. BALL - Well----
Mrs. BLEDSOE - When he had it on?
Mr. BALL - Yes.
Mrs. BLEDSOE - Before he was shot? Yes; I remember it being brown.
Mr. BALL - You remember the shirt being brown. Was it this color?
Mrs. BLEDSOE - Yes; it was that color.
Mr. BALL - In other words, when you remember that you have seen something before---
Enough for now about Bledsoe... :P
It continues like this for another page !!
http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/russ/testimony/bledsoe.htm
(http://www.patspeer.com/_/rsrc/1505767669414/chapter-4b-threads-of-evidence
/holeyshirt.jpg)
Was the shirt that Ms Randle saw, the same shirt that Patrolman Baker saw, & the same shirt that Ms Bledsoe saw which was the same shirt that Oswald was arrested in?
To be con't...all comments welcome.
Credit to Pat Speer's Threads of Evidence for picture links and some info.
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Was the shirt that Ms Randle saw, the same shirt that Patrolman Baker saw, & the same shirt that Ms Bledsoe saw which was the same shirt that Oswald was arrested in?
Yes, it was.
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There was a thread on this last year. It got really interesting. There was a lot of linked material.
We can try and revive it....
(http://www.patspeer.com/_/rsrc/1269013585390/chapter4b%3A%22theso-calledevidence%22/threads.jpg)
At 12:44, 14 minutes after the shooting, Dallas Police Inspector J. Herbert Sawyer called in a description of the presumed assassin. He announced: "The wanted person in this is a slender white male about 30, 5 feet 10, 165, carrying what looks to be a 30-30 or some type of Winchester." He was then asked to confirm that this was a rifle. He responded: "A rifle, yes." He was then asked "Any clothing description?" He responded "Current witness can't remember that."
As a side note the "slender white male about 30, 5 feet 10, 165" is the same exact description...word for word... of a guy that was in Mexico City claiming to be Lee Oswald. The middle name was also given...but it was not Harvey...it was Henry*
Meanwhile back to the shirt...
Motorcycle Officer Marrion Baker, who?d encountered Oswald in a stairway within a minute and a half of the shooting, described Oswald's clothing as different than the man seen in the window (11-22-63 Affidavit, 24H199): ?The man I saw was a white man approximately 30 years old, 5?9?, 165 pounds, dark hair and wearing a light brown jacket.?
I just posted this under the Oswald's Jacket thread...
A statement from Wes Frazier's sister.....
The complete post is here..
https://www.jfkassassinationforum.com/index.php/topic,124.msg16375.html#msg16375
There was this Mary Bledsoe woman who stated she was a former landlady of Oswald's.****************************************************************
Again asked about the shirt...************************************************************
This stuff about the shirt must have really bothered the Commission.
Ball would not let it go.Ball goes on and on...Enough for now about Bledsoe... :P
It continues like this for another page !!
http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/russ/testimony/bledsoe.htm
(http://www.patspeer.com/_/rsrc/1505767669414/chapter-4b-threads-of-evidence
/holeyshirt.jpg)
Was the shirt that Ms Randle saw, the same shirt that Patrolman Baker saw, & the same shirt that Ms Bledsoe saw which was the same shirt that Oswald was arrested in?
To be con't...all comments welcome.
Credit to Pat Speer's Threads of Evidence for picture links and some info.
Was the shirt that Ms Randle saw, the same shirt that Patrolman Baker saw, & the same shirt that Ms Bledsoe saw which was the same shirt that Oswald was arrested in?
Motorcycle Officer Marrion Baker, who?d encountered Oswald in a stairway within a minute and a half of the shooting, described Oswald's clothing as different than the man seen in the window (11-22-63 Affidavit, 24H199): ?The man I saw was a white man approximately 30 years old, 5?9?, 165 pounds, dark hair and wearing a light brown jacket.?
The man that Baker encountered on either the third or fourth floor was NOT Lee Oswald. Baker and Truly encountered Lee in the second floor lunchroom.... They then left Lee in the lunchroom and encountered the 30 years old, 5?9?, 165 pounds, dark haired man, who was wearing a light brown jacket on the fourth floor. ( Actually I believe it was the fifth floor...and the man's name was Jack )
Now back to the shirt....Lee went to his room and changed his clothes before going to the movies....The FBI found a tuft of fibers on the butt of the rifle and reported that the tuft of fibers matched the shirt that Lee was wearing at the theater. Houston er have a problem...The shirt that Lee was wearing at the theater was NOT the shirt that he was wearing at the TSBD at the time of the Coup d e'tat. QUESTION:... How did the tuft of fibers from the arrest shirt become caught on the rifle ??? The authorities had both the shirt and the rifle after Lee was arrested....
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The man that Baker encountered on either the third or fourth floor was NOT Lee Oswald. Baker and Truly encountered Lee in the second floor lunchroom.... They then left Lee in the lunchroom and encountered the 30 years old, 5?9?, 165 pounds, dark haired man, who was wearing a light brown jacket on the fourth floor. ( Actually I believe it was the fifth floor...and the man's name was Jack )
Hi Walt do you happen to have any sources of the 4th or 5th floor guy? :)
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How do these descriptions mesh with what the Tippit murder witnesses stated?
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Mrs. Robert A. Reid, who saw Oswald just after his encounter with Baker, signed a statement on 11-22, claiming: "When I saw him he was dressed in a white T-shirt and I don't recall what his trousers were like." (24H223)
A link to her FBI statement on 11- 26 confirming the above....
https://i0.wp.com/www.prayer-man.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/04/FBI-Affidavait-R-Reid-NOv-26-1963.jpg
Mr. BELIN. Do you remember what clothes he had on when you saw him?
Mrs. REID. What he was wearing, he had on a white T-shirt and some kind of wash trousers. What color I couldn't tell you.
Mr. BELIN. I am going to hand you what has been marked Commission Exhibit, first 157 and then 158, and I will ask you if either or both look like they might have been the trousers that you saw him wear or can you tell?
Mrs. REID. I just couldn't be positive about that. I would rather not say, because I just cannot.
Mr. BELIN. Do you remember whether he had any shirt or jacket on over his T-shirt?
Mrs. REID. He did not. He did not have any jacket on.
**Mr. BELIN. Have you ever seen anyone working at the book depository wearing any kind of a shirt or jacket similar to Commission Exhibit 150 or do you know?
Mrs. REID. No; I do not. I have never, so far as I know ever seen that shirt. I have been asked
** Now why did David Belin ask her that? What was this obsession with CE 150?
Was this former landlady Bledsoe lying about the shirt?
Mr. BALL - Now, what is there about the shirt that makes you believe that this is the shirt that Oswald had on when he was on the bus? What is there about it?
Mrs. BLEDSOE - Well, let's see the front of it. Yes See all this [indicating]? I remember that.
If Walt is right...
Lee went to his room and changed his clothes before going to the movies
We need to find what we can to verify that LHO changed his shirt.
In the scribbled notes of Will Fritz ...Oswald said he did change his shirt...
https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=29103#relPageId=7&tab=page
We have CE 150
(https://www.maryferrell.org/wiki/images/b/b7/Photo_naraevid_CE150-1.jpg)
and then CE 151 In color here....
(http://www.patspeer.com/_/rsrc/1479403772493/chapter4b%3A%22theso-calledevidence%22/Screen%20Shot%202016-11-17%20at%209.28.40%20AM.png)
We also have CE 152...Also in color
(http://www.patspeer.com/_/rsrc/1504021353366/chapter-4b-threads-of-evidence/Screen%20Shot%202017-08-29%20at%208.33.09%20AM.png)
Mr. BALL. Did you notice how he was dressed?
Mr. WHALEY. Yes, sir. I didn't pay much attention to it right then. But it all came back when I really found out who I had. He was dressed in just ordinary work clothes. It wasn't khaki pants but they were khaki material, blue faded blue color, like a blue uniform made in khaki. Then he had on a brown shirt with a little silverlike stripe on it and he had on some kind of jacket, I didn't notice very close but I think it was a work jacket that almost matched the pants.
He, his shirt was open three buttons down here. He had on a T-shirt. You know, the shirt was open three buttons down there.
Whaley states [in his 2nd Warren Commission appearance] that he hadn't really paid much attention at first but it all came back to him and he was able describe everything to a T [WOW]
CE 152 is kind of reddish brownish maybe with wide silver stripes
But it looks like an ugly pajama top and it's really doubtful that Oswald would wear it in public
Sorry about the really enlarged pictures but I don't know how to redo this :-\
Oswald claimed that he was wearing at work..and described what was later to become CE 151 exactly..precisely.. at his interrogation and then said he changed into shirt [CE 150]
Why would he lie about it? If he had any inkling that there was something incriminating about his morning shirt..than he would have certainly changed out of it and got rid of it.
A 12-1 article in the Washington Star by Jerry O'Leary, a writer more than friendly with the FBI's Deke DeLoach, and someone upon whom the FBI regularly relies to get their stories before the public, declares: "PIECE OF OSWALD'S SHIRT FOUND SNAGGED IN RIFLE." It then goes on to claim "A fragment of Lee Harvey Oswald's shirt was snagged in the rifle that killed President John F. Kennedy, the FBI report of the assassination states. Disclosure of this evidence against the 24 year-old Oswald, himself slain two days after Mr. Kennedy's death, is regarded as one of the most solid pieces of evidence of his guilt. Officials said wisps of brown shirt material were caught in metal parts of the 6.5 mm Italian-made carbine found on the fifth floor of the Texas School Book Depository Building a few minutes after the fatal shots were fired on November 22. When Oswald was arrested two hours later, he was wearing a brown shirt of the same material. Oswald claimed he had changed his shirt in his rooming house after leaving the assassination area, but this proved to be untrue. FBI Crime Lab technicians determined by microscopic and other scientific means that the fragment of shirt material came from the shirt the ex-Marine was wearing."
What a fake news crock of crap!
By December first of that year it seems that reporters were free to write anything they wanted >:(
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~snip~
"Mr. BELIN - What about when you saw him in the School Book Depository Building, does this look familiar as anything he was wearing, if you know?
Mr. BAKER - I couldn't say whether that was--it seemed to me it was a light-colored brown but I couldn't say it was that or not."
~snip~
(http://i959.photobucket.com/albums/ae75/garcra/baker4a.jpg)
Mr. DULLES - Do you recall whether or not he was wearing the same clothes, did he appear to you the same when you saw him in the police station as when you saw him in the lunchroom?
Mr. BAKER - Actually just looking at him, he looked like he didn't have the same thing on.
Mr. BELIN - He looked as though he did not have the same thing on?
Mr. BAKER - He looked like he did not have the same on.
----------------------
~snip~
"The first indication of this change is from LHO, via a FBI report dated November 25, 1963, which the WC would mark as Commission Exhibit (CE) 1988. On page 19 of this report we see the following statement:
Quote on
He stated that after arriving at his apartment, he CHANGED his shirt and trousers because they were dirty. He described his dirty clothes as being a reddish colored, long sleeved, shirt with a button-down collar and gray colored trousers. (Emphasis added)"
http://historymatters.com/archive/jfk/wc/wcvols/wh24/html/WH_Vol24_0019a.htm
~snip~
(http://i959.photobucket.com/albums/ae75/garcra/0111-0022.jpg)
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A link to her FBI statement on 11- 26 confirming the above....
https://i0.wp.com/www.prayer-man.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/04/FBI-Affidavait-R-Reid-NOv-26-1963.jpg
** Now why did David Belin ask her that? What was this obsession with CE 150?
Was this former landlady Bledsoe lying about the shirt?If Walt is right... We need to find what we can to verify that LHO changed his shirt.
In the scribbled notes of Will Fritz ...Oswald said he did change his shirt...
https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=29103#relPageId=7&tab=page
We have CE 150
(https://www.maryferrell.org/wiki/images/b/b7/Photo_naraevid_CE150-1.jpg)
and then CE 151 In color here....
(http://www.patspeer.com/_/rsrc/1479403772493/chapter4b%3A%22theso-calledevidence%22/Screen%20Shot%202016-11-17%20at%209.28.40%20AM.png)
We also have CE 152...Also in color
(http://www.patspeer.com/_/rsrc/1504021353366/chapter-4b-threads-of-evidence/Screen%20Shot%202017-08-29%20at%208.33.09%20AM.png)
Whaley states [in his 2nd Warren Commission appearance] that he hadn't really paid much attention at first but it all came back to him and he was able describe everything to a T [WOW]
CE 152 is kind of reddish brownish maybe with wide silver stripes
But it looks like an ugly pajama top and it's really doubtful that Oswald would wear it in public
Sorry about the really enlarged pictures but I don't know how to redo this :-\
Oswald claimed that he was wearing at work..and described what was later to become CE 151 exactly..precisely.. at his interrogation and then said he changed into shirt [CE 150]
Why would he lie about it? If he had any inkling that there was something incriminating about his morning shirt..than he would have certainly changed out of it and got rid of it.
What a fake news crock of crap!
By December first of that year it seems that reporters were free to write anything they wanted >:(
A 12-1 article in the Washington Star by Jerry O'Leary, a writer more than friendly with the FBI's Deke DeLoach, and someone upon whom the FBI regularly relies to get their stories before the public, declares: "PIECE OF OSWALD'S SHIRT FOUND SNAGGED IN RIFLE." It then goes on to claim "A fragment of Lee Harvey Oswald's shirt was snagged in the rifle that killed President John F. Kennedy, the FBI report of the assassination states. Disclosure of this evidence against the 24 year-old Oswald, himself slain two days after Mr. Kennedy's death, is regarded as one of the most solid pieces of evidence of his guilt. Officials said wisps of brown shirt material were caught in metal parts of the 6.5 mm Italian-made carbine found on the fifth floor of the Texas School Book Depository Building a few minutes after the fatal shots were fired on November 22. When Oswald was arrested two hours later, he was wearing a brown shirt of the same material. Oswald claimed he had changed his shirt in his rooming house after leaving the assassination area, but this proved to be untrue. FBI Crime Lab technicians determined by microscopic and other scientific means that the fragment of shirt material came from the shirt the ex-Marine was wearing."
Thank you for posting the above..... As you've pointed out it was "fake news"....( more accurately it's a damned lie) which was used to convict an innocent man in the eyes of the gullible public. (Keep in mind and remember that this is the work of J.Edgar Hoover)
Lee told the interrogators on Saturday 11/23/63 that he went to his room and changed his clothes ( confirmed by Mrs Roberts) On page 626 of WR Secret Service inspector Kelley says that Lee told him that he went to his room and changed his clothes.
Quote..."He said he went home, changed his shirt and trousers,put his shirt in a drawer. This was a red shirt, and he put it with his dirty clothes. He described the shirt as having a button down collar and of a reddish color. The trousers were grey colored"...unquote
On page 622 FBI Agent James Bookhout's report for that same interrogation on 11/23/63 ...Bookhout writes ..
Quote..."He changed his shirt and trousers because they were dirty. He described his dirty clothes as being a reddish colored, long sleeved, shirt WITH A BUTTON DOWN COLLAR, and grey colored trousers. He indicated that he had placed these articles of clothing in the lower drawer of his dresser" ...unquote
Clearly Lee was simply telling the interrogators the truth.....and mentioning the detail about the reddish colored shirt had a BUTTON DOWN COLLAR was a simple detail that would blow the whole damned lie because the LNer liars deny that Lee changed his shirt......and they claim the shirt he was wearing at the theater ( the arrest shirt) was the same shirt he was wearing at the TSBD at the time of the murder. There are dozens of photo that show Lee wearing the arrest shirt after he was dragged from the theater, and that shirt does NOT have a button down collar.
The cops searched Lee's room at about 4:00 pm on 11/22/63 and they found the reddish colored shirt and grey trousers in the dresser just as Lee said THE NEXT DAY 11/23/63. The Potts exhibit lists the items that were taken from Lee room and Detective Potts described the shirt.
Clearly the tuft of fibers on the butt of the rifle was a major blunder by the authorities who were framing Lee Oswald....
The fools rubbed the butt of the rifle on the shirt,and snagged the tuft of fibers, after they took the shirt from Lee's back ...but they failed to realize that the shirt was NOT the shirt Lee had been wearing at the time of the murder.
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~snip~
"Mr. BELIN - What about when you saw him in the School Book Depository Building, does this look familiar as anything he was wearing, if you know?
Mr. BAKER - I couldn't say whether that was--it seemed to me it was a light-colored brown but I couldn't say it was that or not."
~snip~
(http://i959.photobucket.com/albums/ae75/garcra/baker4a.jpg)
Mr. DULLES - Do you recall whether or not he was wearing the same clothes, did he appear to you the same when you saw him in the police station as when you saw him in the lunchroom?
Mr. BAKER - Actually just looking at him, he looked like he didn't have the same thing on.
Mr. BELIN - He looked as though he did not have the same thing on?
Mr. BAKER - He looked like he did not have the same on.
----------------------
~snip~
"The first indication of this change is from LHO, via a FBI report dated November 25, 1963, which the WC would mark as Commission Exhibit (CE) 1988. On page 19 of this report we see the following statement:
Quote on
He stated that after arriving at his apartment, he CHANGED his shirt and trousers because they were dirty. He described his dirty clothes as being a reddish colored, long sleeved, shirt with a button-down collar and gray colored trousers. (Emphasis added)"
http://historymatters.com/archive/jfk/wc/wcvols/wh24/html/WH_Vol24_0019a.htm
~snip~
(http://i959.photobucket.com/albums/ae75/garcra/0111-0022.jpg)
Thank you for posting the information, Gary.
A word of warning to the students investigating this shirt aspect....LBJ's Special Select Cover Up Committee realized very early that the "investigators" ( FBI and DPD) had made a major bungle in trying to make it appear that Lee had had the carcano against his shoulder while he was wearing the shirt that he was wearing at the time of his arrest.
They had caused the rifle to become "proof" that Lee was guilty by snagging a tuft of fiber from the arrest shirt with the butt of the rifle..... Except.... OOOOPS!! Wrong shirt!!
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The Bus Transfer
According to the Warren Report [and all it's faithful parrots] Lee Oswald planned the assassination of Pres Kennedy. However, it seems to rest of the world that he did rather poorly planning his 'escape'. He had to assume he needed to escape..right? Why not take a bus? A bus? Really, a city bus?
Why not something dynamic like steal or hijack a car?
Oh that's right, Oswald didn't drive.
(http://harveyandlee.net/Leaving/bus_transfer_front.jpg)
The bus transfer was reported to have been taken from Oswald's dark brown shirt pocket by Detective Lt Day of the Dallas PD.
It looks brand new! No apparent creases, wrinkles or folds from a shirt that was involved in a knock down drag out scuffle with a gang of cops.
However, National Archivist Steve Hamilton confirmed that the bus transfer has a crease in the middle, indicating that it had at one time been folded. One guy? I would like to see it for myself. But probably it is there now.
No need to go into the entire bus story here. We are all familiar with it.
Oswald himself provided details that were confirmed by witnesses of the 'getaway'.
Feel free to bring up particulars.
In the old failed archives of last year, Walt Cakebread brought up some unique aspects.
Unfortunately they disappeared and perhaps we can bring them back.
The point presently is that if LHO went back and changed shirts, then he must have taken the transfer from his dirty light reddish brown shirt and put it in the dark reddish brown shirt.
Why would he do that? He apparently didn't plan on using it.
But if he needed to escape and get away quickly, why not use the transfer and take another bus?
Instead, [according to 'history'] he went into a panic and strolled away aimlessly :-\
FBI guys Kelley and Bookhout, wrote that Oswald removed a reddish-colored, long-sleeved shirt with a button down collar and placed it in the lower drawer of his dresser.
A minor slip there, the reddish colored shirt did not have a button down collar.
Conjecture...Mary Bledsoe did see Oswald on the bus but her testimony was changed to accommodate his wearing CE 150 and not the shirt he said he actually wore that morning.
Bledsoe, Whaley and another witness [a Mr Jones-bus passenger] all remembered that Oswald wore light colored grey pants on the bus and taxi. Oswald told Capt. Fritz that he had changed his dirty trousers (light colored grey pants) in his room. When arrested, Oswald was wearing very dark pants. His dirty light colored grey pants were later found in his room by police. How could Bledsoe and Jones and Whaley have known Oswald was wearing light grey pants on the bus/taxi unless they had actually seen him?
I was wrong about cab driver Whaley earlier...he was hauled before the Warren Commission THREE times...not just two.
Apr 8 1964....
Mr. BELIN. You previously testified before the Commission in Washington, is that correct?
Mr. WHALEY. Yes, sir.
Mr. BELIN. Now before you came to Washington, did you and I ever meet?
Mr. WHALEY. Your face is familiar, sir. I still can't tell you whether I knew you here, or in Washington, or where?
Mr. BELIN. Let me ask you this.
Mr. WHALEY. You refresh my memory.
Mr. BELIN. I will try to refresh your memory here. When did you come to Washington, approximately?
Mr. WHALEY. Well, it's been about 2 or 3 weeks ago, sir. I don't remember the exact date.
Where are the records of that interview three weeks prior?
***********************************************************************
Mr. BALL. Did you notice how he was dressed?
Mr. WHALEY. Yes, sir. I didn't pay much attention to it right then. But it all came back when I really found out who I had. He was dressed in just ordinary work clothes. It wasn't khaki pants but they were khaki material, blue faded blue color, like a blue uniform made in khaki. Then he had on a brown shirt with a little silverlike stripe on it and he had on some kind of jacket, I didn't notice very close but I think it was a work jacket that almost matched the pants.
He, his shirt was open three buttons down here. He had on a T-shirt. You know, the shirt was open three buttons down there.
Then the commission brought Whaley back for a THIRD time where he was able to "ID" CE 150.
But note the words....
Mr. BALL. I have some clothing here. Commission Exhibit No. 150, does that look like the shirt?
Mr. WHALEY. That is the shirt, sir, it has my initials on it.
Mr. BALL. In other words, this is the shirt the man had on?
Mr. WHALEY. Yes, sir; that is the same one the FBI man had me identify.
Mr. BALL. This is the shirt the man had on who took your car at Lamar and Jackson?
Mr. WHALEY. As near as I can recollect as I told him. I said that is the shirt he had on because it had a kind of little stripe in it, light-colored stripe. I noticed that.
What was up about that 'little stripe' Whaley kept talking about?
Poor guy got roped by The Man.
Joe Ball got what he needed......................................................................
To be continued
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The Bus Transfer
According to the Warren Report [and all it's faithful parrots] Lee Oswald planned the assassination of Pres Kennedy. However, it seems to rest of the world that he did rather poorly planning his 'escape'. He had to assume he needed to escape..right? Why not take a bus? A bus? Really, a city bus?
Why not something dynamic like steal or hijack a car?
Oh that's right, Oswald didn't drive.
(http://harveyandlee.net/Leaving/bus_transfer_front.jpg)
The bus transfer was reported to have been taken from Oswald's dark brown shirt pocket by Detective Lt Day of the Dallas PD.
It looks brand new! No apparent creases, wrinkles or folds from a shirt that was involved in a knock down drag out scuffle with a gang of cops.
However, National Archivist Steve Hamilton confirmed that the bus transfer has a crease in the middle, indicating that it had at one time been folded. One guy? I would like to see it for myself. But probably it is there now.
No need to go into the entire bus story here. We are all familiar with it.
Oswald himself provided details that were confirmed by witnesses of the 'getaway'.
Feel free to bring up particulars.
In the old failed archives of last year, Walt Cakebread brought up some unique aspects.
Unfortunately they disappeared and perhaps we can bring them back.
The point presently is that if LHO went back and changed shirts, then he must have taken the transfer from his dirty light reddish brown shirt and put it in the dark reddish brown shirt.
Why would he do that? He apparently didn't plan on using it.
But if he needed to escape and get away quickly, why not use the transfer and take another bus?
Instead, [according to 'history'] he went into a panic and strolled away aimlessly :-\
FBI guys Kelley and Bookhout, wrote that Oswald removed a reddish-colored, long-sleeved shirt with a button down collar and placed it in the lower drawer of his dresser.
A minor slip there, the reddish colored shirt did not have a button down collar.
Conjecture...Mary Bledsoe did see Oswald on the bus but her testimony was changed to accommodate his wearing CE 150 and not the shirt he said he actually wore that morning.
Bledsoe, Whaley and another witness [a Mr Jones-bus passenger] all remembered that Oswald wore light colored grey pants on the bus and taxi. Oswald told Capt. Fritz that he had changed his dirty trousers (light colored grey pants) in his room. When arrested, Oswald was wearing very dark pants. His dirty light colored grey pants were later found in his room by police. How could Bledsoe and Jones and Whaley have known Oswald was wearing light grey pants on the bus/taxi unless they had actually seen him?
I was wrong about cab driver Whaley earlier...he was hauled before the Warren Commission THREE times...not just two.
Apr 8 1964....Where are the records of that interview three weeks prior?
***********************************************************************
Then the commission brought Whaley back for a THIRD time where he was able to "ID" CE 150.
But note the words....
What was up about that 'little stripe' Whaley kept talking about?
Poor guy got roped by The Man.
Joe Ball got what he needed......................................................................
To be continued
WARNING.... You're dealing with the "smoking gun" in investigating the shirt. Be vigilant and don't be confused by all of the BS that's been distributed.
The shirt is the piece of evidence that reveals the perfidy of the authorities.....
-
No doubt the parrots will bring up this affidavit....
(https://texashistory.unt.edu/ark:/67531/metapth338210/m1/1/med_res/)
I am aware that it says 'dark shirt with white spots'.
However it says nothing about a 'jacket that matched the pants' which Whaley described Oswald was wearing in his later testimony. We can suppose a somewhat faulty memory in any event. Cab drivers are busy with the public every day.
-
Just posted this same video in the prayer woman thread.
It should also go along with the shirt discussion-
Snips of films spliced together-
Starting at about 1:40 to about 1:50 or so ...who appears to have the same shade of clothing as the prayer individual. steps out into the foreground or bottom of the film and moves to his left.
He looks on like 'what's happening here'?
Wearing the same type of shirt as CE 151... guess who said he wore?
Looks like Lee Harvey Oswald huh?
-
Just posted this same video in the prayer woman thread.
It should also go along with the shirt discussion-
Yes, I think you're right....I believe that the man is lee Oswald....
-
LHO is arrested @ approximately 1:55pm.
He is searched @ 4:05pm and five live rounds of .38 calibre pistol shells are found in his left front pocket.
A bus transfer is found in his shirt pocket.
So apparently LHO wasn't searched for the first 2hrs. 10min. he was in custody?
http://jfk.ci.dallas.tx.us/13/1372-001.gif
-snip-
"At approximately 1:55pm Friday, November 22, 1963, I was in the vicinity
of the Texas Theater in the Oak Cliff section of Dallas, looking for the suspect
in the slaying of officer J.D. Tippit."
-snip-
"I joined the other officers in attempting to complete the arrest"
-snip-
"succeeded in subduing the suspect, and while the other officers held the suspect, Officer Ray Hawkins and
I handcuffed the suspect."
-snip-
---------------------------
http://jfk.ci.dallas.tx.us/15/1538-004.gif
-snip-
"At 4:05pm Sims, Boyd, and Det. M.C. Hall took Oswald down to the holdover in the jail
office for a show-up. Down in the hold over, Boyd searched Oswald and found
five live rounds of .38 calibre pistol shells in his left front pocket. Sims
found a bus transfer slip in Oswald's shirt pocket."
-snip-
-
(http://harveyandlee.net/Leaving/bus_transfer_front.jpg)
The bus transfer was reported to have been taken from Oswald's dark brown shirt pocket by Detective Lt Day of the Dallas PD.
Jerry, Det. Richard Sims removed the bus transfer from Oswald's shirt pocket, not Carl Day.
It looks brand new! No apparent creases, wrinkles or folds from a shirt that was involved in a knock down drag out scuffle with a gang of cops.
However, National Archivist Steve Hamilton confirmed that the bus transfer has a crease in the middle, indicating that it had at one time been folded. One guy? I would like to see it for myself. But probably it is there now.
(https://i.imgur.com/cz4F5A5.jpg)
-
Jerry, Det. Richard Sims removed the bus transfer from Oswald's shirt pocket, not Carl Day.
Irrelevant really.
-
No doubt the parrots will bring up this affidavit....
(https://texashistory.unt.edu/ark:/67531/metapth338210/m1/1/med_res/)
I am aware that it says 'dark shirt with white spots'.
However it says nothing about a 'jacket that matched the pants' which Whaley described Oswald was wearing in his later testimony. We can suppose a somewhat faulty memory in any event. Cab drivers are busy with the public every day.
Lee Oswald was NOT the passenger in Whaley's cab.....
-
Lee Oswald was NOT the passenger in Whaley's cab.....
Not impossible. That affidavit said he dropped off his passenger at the 500 block of N Beckley.
Google map that, and this puts it past the rooming house 0.5 miles.
That is a 10 minute walk at least.
So......Why?
Where could the passenger go after that?
That location places Whaley's fare 0.3 miles from the Tippit shooting.
Not very far.
If he wasn't Whaley's rider...how did Oswald get back to his room?
Whaley mentions the bracelet on the left wrist.
However, we see that he had viewed Oswald before swearing out the affidavit......
Was Oswald still wearing the bracelet then?
(https://www.washingtonpost.com/resizer/0Z5VQY4ombIZ1DhVg6c-qqJ4MXQ=/480x0/arc-anglerfish-washpost-prod-washpost.s3.amazonaws.com/public/XTLMOXG44E6BPLYKJYGXUZUB4E.jpg)
-
Not impossible. That affidavit said he dropped off his passenger at the 500 block of N Beckley.
Google map that, and this puts it past the rooming house 0.5 miles.
That is a 10 minute walk at least.
So......Why?
Where could the passenger go after that?
That location places Whaley's fare 0.3 miles from the Tippit shooting.
Not very far.
If he wasn't Whaley's rider...how did Oswald get back to his room?
Whaley mentions the bracelet on the left wrist.
However, we see that he had viewed Oswald before swearing out the affidavit......
Was Oswald still wearing the bracelet then?
(https://www.washingtonpost.com/resizer/0Z5VQY4ombIZ1DhVg6c-qqJ4MXQ=/480x0/arc-anglerfish-washpost-prod-washpost.s3.amazonaws.com/public/XTLMOXG44E6BPLYKJYGXUZUB4E.jpg)
The bracelet is irrelevant..... perhaps Whaley's passenger was wearing a bracelet, but that doesn't prove the man as Lee Oswald.
Whaley was a big BSer.... He may have seen the bracelet in a photo of lee oswald after his arrest and noticed the bracelet....At any rate the bracelet proves nothing.
Lee Oswald was NOT the passenger in Whaley's cab......
-
Lee Oswald was NOT the passenger in Whaley's cab......
Then how did Oswald get back to his room?
-
Then how did Oswald get back to his room?
He took a cab , just as he said he did....But it wasn't Whaley's cab. Whaley left the Greyhound bus depot at about 12:30 with his "wino" passenger who was dressed in Blue workman's uniform type clothing.
Whaley said his passenger's fare was 95 cents.... Lee Oswald's fare was 85 cents. That 85 cents would have delivered Lee to the intersection of Beckley and Zangs..... in front of the rooming house.
The story about Lee riding past the rooming house in Whaley's cab is utterly absurd!
-
According to Dallas cops.....
At first Oswald told police he took a bus.
Asked about the cab then he then said yeah OK.
Then he told Fritz about a woman who wanted the cabbie to call her one.
He even offered it to her [not exactly a man on the run]
In his affidavit, Whaley mentions the same incident concerning that woman.
Too much of a coincidence.
The point of this thread concerns the shirt that Oswald was wearing the morning of the assassination and that it most likely wasn't CE 150. The authorities had to keep bringing back witnesses over and over again in the attempt to identify CE 150 as the shirt they saw him in.
Why? Because they had acquired threads from that shirt in some manner and stated that these threads were taken from the murder rifle found in the building.
A solid case had to be built and this was one more piece of the puzzle.
The dark brown shirt Oswald was wearing when arrested, along with the purported assassination weapon and much of the other first day evidence, was flown to Washington for testing by the FBI's crime lab that Friday night [leaving Oswald with only his T shirt]
CD5 p159
This evidence was tested throughout the next day. At 5:30 PM, Assistant Director Alan Belmont furnished Dallas Special-Agent-in-Charge Gordon Shanklin the results of these tests. A memo by Shanklin found in the Dallas FBI files reveals that, in regards to the shirt. Belmont told him: "Several black cotton, orange yellow cotton, and gray black cotton fibers which matched similar fibers composing Oswald's shirt removed from butt plate of submitted rifle."
No one who claimed they saw upper floor individuals before/during the shooting identified them wearing such a shirt.
The following morning, 11-24, the FBI Laboratory provided the Dallas police with the following information.. A small tuft of textile fibers was found adhering to a jagged area on the left side of the metal butt plate on the rifle. Included in this tuft of fibers were gray-black, dark blue and orange-yellow cotton fibers which match in microscopic characteristics the gray-black, dark blue and orange-yellow cotton fibers composing the CE 150 shirt of the suspect. These fibers could have originated from this shirt.
CD5, p164
"Could"?? "Could have"??
(http://www.patspeer.com/_/rsrc/1504194812232/chapter-4b-threads-of-evidence/brownshirtsleeve.png)
CE 150...I fail to see any "blue" in the fabric
The parrots will point out I'm not an expert.
However, I can microscopically smell something fishy ;)
(http://www.patspeer.com/_/rsrc/1505780853952/chapter-4b-threads-of-evidence/Screen%20Shot%202017-09-18%20at%205.25.26%20PM.png)
The witnesses who saw Oswald on the bus and the cabbie Whaley ...were never shown CE 151 for identification...not that I can find anywhere.
-
According to Dallas cops.....
At first Oswald told police he took a bus.
Asked about the cab then he then said yeah OK.
Then he told Fritz about a woman who wanted the cabbie to call her one.
He even offered it to her [not exactly a man on the run]
In his affidavit, Whaley mentions the same incident concerning that woman.
Too much of a coincidence.
The point of this thread concerns the shirt that Oswald was wearing the morning of the assassination and that it most likely wasn't CE 150. The authorities had to keep bringing back witnesses over and over again in the attempt to identify CE 150 as the shirt they saw him in.
Why? Because they had acquired threads from that shirt in some manner and stated that these threads were taken from the murder rifle found in the building.
A solid case had to be built and this was one more piece of the puzzle.
The dark brown shirt Oswald was wearing when arrested, along with the purported assassination weapon and much of the other first day evidence, was flown to Washington for testing by the FBI's crime lab that Friday night [leaving Oswald with only his T shirt]
CD5 p159
This evidence was tested throughout the next day. At 5:30 PM, Assistant Director Alan Belmont furnished Dallas Special-Agent-in-Charge Gordon Shanklin the results of these tests. A memo by Shanklin found in the Dallas FBI files reveals that, in regards to the shirt. Belmont told him: "Several black cotton, orange yellow cotton, and gray black cotton fibers which matched similar fibers composing Oswald's shirt removed from butt plate of submitted rifle."
No one who claimed they saw upper floor individuals before/during the shooting identified them wearing such a shirt.
The following morning, 11-24, the FBI Laboratory provided the Dallas police with the following information..
CD5, p164
"Could"?? "Could have"??
(http://www.patspeer.com/_/rsrc/1504194812232/chapter-4b-threads-of-evidence/brownshirtsleeve.png)
CE 150...I fail to see any "blue" in the fabric
The parrots will point out I'm not an expert.
However, I can microscopically smell something fishy ;)
(http://www.patspeer.com/_/rsrc/1505780853952/chapter-4b-threads-of-evidence/Screen%20Shot%202017-09-18%20at%205.25.26%20PM.png)
The witnesses who saw Oswald on the bus and the cabbie Whaley ...were never shown CE 151 for identification...not that I can find anywhere.
According to Dallas cops.....
Keep those words in mind.....
-
According to Dallas cops.....
At first Oswald told police he took a bus.
Asked about the cab then he then said yeah OK.
Then he told Fritz about a woman who wanted the cabbie to call her one.
He even offered it to her [not exactly a man on the run]
In his affidavit, Whaley mentions the same incident concerning that woman.
Too much of a coincidence.
The point of this thread concerns the shirt that Oswald was wearing the morning of the assassination and that it most likely wasn't CE 150. The authorities had to keep bringing back witnesses over and over again in the attempt to identify CE 150 as the shirt they saw him in.
Why? Because they had acquired threads from that shirt in some manner and stated that these threads were taken from the murder rifle found in the building.
A solid case had to be built and this was one more piece of the puzzle.
The dark brown shirt Oswald was wearing when arrested, along with the purported assassination weapon and much of the other first day evidence, was flown to Washington for testing by the FBI's crime lab that Friday night [leaving Oswald with only his T shirt]
CD5 p159
This evidence was tested throughout the next day. At 5:30 PM, Assistant Director Alan Belmont furnished Dallas Special-Agent-in-Charge Gordon Shanklin the results of these tests. A memo by Shanklin found in the Dallas FBI files reveals that, in regards to the shirt. Belmont told him: "Several black cotton, orange yellow cotton, and gray black cotton fibers which matched similar fibers composing Oswald's shirt removed from butt plate of submitted rifle."
No one who claimed they saw upper floor individuals before/during the shooting identified them wearing such a shirt.
The following morning, 11-24, the FBI Laboratory provided the Dallas police with the following information..
CD5, p164
"Could"?? "Could have"??
(http://www.patspeer.com/_/rsrc/1504194812232/chapter-4b-threads-of-evidence/brownshirtsleeve.png)
CE 150...I fail to see any "blue" in the fabric
The parrots will point out I'm not an expert.
However, I can microscopically smell something fishy ;)
(http://www.patspeer.com/_/rsrc/1505780853952/chapter-4b-threads-of-evidence/Screen%20Shot%202017-09-18%20at%205.25.26%20PM.png)
The witnesses who saw Oswald on the bus and the cabbie Whaley ...were never shown CE 151 for identification...not that I can find anywhere.
According to Dallas cops.....
he told Fritz about a woman who wanted the cabbie to call her one.
He even offered it to her [not exactly a man on the run]
In his affidavit, Whaley mentions the same incident concerning that woman.
Too much of a coincidence.... or a very clever fabrication....
-
The following morning, 11-24, the FBI Laboratory provided the Dallas police with the following information..
CD5, p164
"Could"?? "Could have"??
Indeed. "Could have" is the best they can do. As in Oswald could have shot JFK.
-
Walt
Of course I have your thread on the cab ride here...
https://www.jfkassassinationforum.com/index.php/topic,180.msg3732.html#msg3732
I just need a little more help with the shirt right now.
Was LHO wearing a brown shirt when he supposedly fired shots?
Howard Brennan
OCCUPATION :
Steamfitter
LOCATION :
Wall Opposite Book Depository
Building
SOURCE OF SHOTS :
Book Depository
NUMBER OF SHOTS :
2
DALLAS SHERIFF'S STATEMENT: November 22, 1963.
24H203
I was facing in a northerly direction looking across not only at Elm Street but I could see the large red brick building across the street from where I was sitting. I take this building across the street to be about 7 stories anyway in the east end of the building and the second row of windows from the top I saw a man in this window. I had seen him before the President?s car arrived. He was just sitting up there looking down apparently waiting for the same thing I was to see the President. I did not notice anything unusual about this man. He was a white man in his early 30?s, slender, nice looking, slender and would weight about 165 to 175 pounds. He had on light colored clothing but definitely not a suit. I proceeded to watch the President?s car as it turned left at the corner where I was and about 50 yards from the intersection of Elm and Houston and to a point I would say the President?s back was in line with the last window I have previously described I heard what I thought was a backfire. It run in my mind that it might be someone throwing firecrackers out the window of the red brick building and I looked up at the building. I then saw this man I have described in the window and he was taking aim with a high powered rifle. I could see all of the barrel of the gun. I do not know if it had a scope on it or not. I was looking at the man in this window at the time of the last explosion. Then this man let the gun down to his side and stepped down out of sight. He did not seem to be in any hurry. I could see this man from about his belt up. There was nothing unusual about him at all in appearance. I believe that I could identify this man if I ever saw him again.
The parrots can't have it both ways. From the belt up was light colored Brennen claimed.
This certainly was not CE 150.
-
Walt
Of course I have your thread on the cab ride here...
https://www.jfkassassinationforum.com/index.php/topic,180.msg3732.html#msg3732
I just need a little more help with the shirt right now.
Was LHO wearing a brown shirt when he supposedly fired shots?
DALLAS SHERIFF'S STATEMENT: November 22, 1963.
24H203
The parrots can't have it both ways. From the belt up was light colored Brennen claimed.
This certainly was not CE 150.
Was LHO wearing a brown shirt when he supposedly fired shots?
Do you mind if I rephrase the question?.....
Was LHO wearing a brown shirt at the time John Kennedy was murdered?
Yes, Lee was wearing a brownish, reddish colored shirt at the time..... ( you've post a video clip that shows the shirt he was wearing at the time....He's standing behind the young man with glasses and dark hair who is wearing a red jacket. )
Although the color reproduction is not the best .....you can see that the shirt was NOT the shirt he was wearing when he was dragged from the theater.
Lee said the shirt had a BUTTON DOWN COLLAR.....And that's the shirt that Potts found in Lee's room....
-
Lee was wearing a brownish, reddish colored shirt at the time
Thanks for the help. I'm not the very best at literary expression ::)
Oswald was wearing CE 151. He said he was..why would he lie?
He wore it unbuttoned over his T shirt.
One of the guys in another thread mentioned that he might have tied the sleeves around his waist.
People do that... tie their sweater sleeves when it gets warmer.
Conjecture...when he was busy...for comfort in warm spaces.
A 2nd floor woman said she saw Oswald in his T shirt.
Perhaps she didn't notice the tied up reddish shirt.
-
I find it amusing how all these new nuts come in here all full of piss and vinegar with their James Files and latest youtube info . Upon seeing that Cakebread pounces on them like fresh meat and violates them with his fabricated loaded lance. Rinse, lather, repeat.
-
I thought others at the breakroom or on the trip exiting had said he was wearing a a white t shirt But yes it is possible that is a detail people could miss
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I thought others at the breakroom or on the trip exiting had said he was wearing a a white t shirt But yes it is possible that is a detail people could miss
I believe only Mrs Reid said that she thought that Lee was wearing a white Tee shirt..... I believe she was mistaken and possibly recalling another occasion when she's seen Lee wearing a white Tee shirt.
But there's so much BS misinformation that you can believe whatever tingles your taste buds.
However....If you believe that Lee was wearing a white Tee Shirt and was the man in the white clothing that witnesses saw behind a sixth floor window then the tuft of brown fibers on the butt of the rifle are not incriminating of the arch villain Lee Harrrrrvey Osssssswald. ( boooooo hissss)
-
I find it amusing how all these new nuts come in here all full of piss and vinegar with their James Files and latest youtube info . Upon seeing that Cakebread pounces on them like fresh meat and violates them with his fabricated loaded lance. Rinse, lather, repeat.
Why are you so desperate to discredit me, Mr Logan?
If you want to discredit the information I present then your best effort would be the presentation of evidence that proves that the information I present is incorrect. Ad hominem attacks are ineffective and show that you lack intelligence.
-
Why are you so desperate to discredit me, Mr Logan?
It's what the parrots do...
Insult the poster ignore the post.
If not, they respond to conflicting statements or contradictions in evidence with a trite pithy aphorism like- so? ..or so what?.. who cares?.. proof?
The actual concept of scrutiny eludes these people who seem able to swallow a camel but yet gag on a gnat.
Does that just about explain it?
-
It's what the parrots do...
Insult the poster ignore the post.
If not, they respond to conflicting statements or contradictions in evidence with a trite pithy aphorism like- so? ..or so what?.. who cares?.. proof?
The actual concept of scrutiny eludes these people who seem able to swallow a camel but yet gag on a gnat.
Does that just about explain it?
(https://emojipedia-us.s3.amazonaws.com/thumbs/120/emoji-one/104/thumbs-up-sign_1f44d.png)
If truth was really on their side, they wouldn't need to prop up their arguments with empty rhetoric.
-
(https://emojipedia-us.s3.amazonaws.com/thumbs/120/emoji-one/104/thumbs-up-sign_1f44d.png)
If truth was really on their side, they wouldn't need to prop up their arguments with empty rhetoric.
That's it. It's all over now...
-
I find it amusing how all these new nuts come in here all full of piss and vinegar
"New nuts''? Who's newer?
Steve Logan
Newbie
Posts: 11
I do know that this is a new old guy [or is it an old new guy?]
Anyway, yeah I'm pissed. Look at present day government. We have liars calling liars.. liars.
So what's changed?
But I'm not here to 'amuse' people.
Better piss than full of something else.
-
Why are you so desperate to discredit me, Mr Logan?
If you want to discredit the information I present then your best effort would be the presentation of evidence that proves that the information I present is incorrect. Ad hominem attacks are ineffective and show that you lack intelligence.
Just sayin that you need a Warning Label and the new nuts should be aware.
-
Just sayin that you need a Warning Label and the new nuts should be aware.
Now you're lying.....
Is it true that you were a Dallas cop?
-
Now you're lying.....
Is it true that you were a Dallas cop?
No no Wally, you're the proven liar on here.
You know damn well where I'm from.
If you have forgotten and I know things of that nature might be happening more frequently lately, well there you go....
-
(http://www.russianwomendiscussion.com/Smileys/default2/Off_Topic.gif)
Please stay on the shirt topic and not call each other liars here ;)
-
(http://www.russianwomendiscussion.com/Smileys/default2/Off_Topic.gif)
Please stay on the shirt topic and not call each other liars here ;)
You've been warned. You're on your own.
-
You've been warned. You're on your own.
Being warned by a LNer is akin to seeing a shark's fin while swimming in the surf...
-
You've been warned
Was not a 'warning'. I am not a moderator. I am not a conspiracy theorist.
The Puppets of the Establishment are liars and ruthless gangsters..& that is no theory.
-
Was not a 'warning'. I am not a moderator. I am not a conspiracy theorist.
The Puppets of the Establishment are liars and ruthless gangsters..& that is no theory.
OMG another Kook who now claims that he is not a "conspiracy theorist"!? Hahahaha, you guys!
JohnM
-
OMG another Kook who now claims that he is not a "conspiracy theorist"!? Hahahaha, you guys!
Here's a newsflash for you: not everyone who disbelieves your weak, unsupported conclusions has a "conspiracy theory".
-
Here's a newsflash for you: not everyone who disbelieves your weak, unsupported conclusions has a "conspiracy theory".
I think you will need to dumb this down further before Mytton can possibly understand something so basic.
-
OMG another Kook who now claims that he is not a "conspiracy theorist"!? Hahahaha, you guys!
This guy must have been born on the highway..that's where most accidents happen
-
OMG another Kook who now claims that he is not a "conspiracy theorist"!? Hahahaha, you guys!
JohnM
Yes, all the evidence is suspect and the product of fakery and lies going back months or years but no one is suggesting or implying there was a conspiracy. LOL. No explanation for who or why all this evidence is fabricated. It just is. The dilemma for CTers is that they apply an impossible standard proof when it comes to Oswald's guilt. As a result nothing, including their closet conspiracy fantasy, can ever be proved under that standard. Thus, they have to deny that they are suggesting anything. It's a lazy, cowardly, and bizarre way to approach this or any other matter but the only way they can avoid acknowledging that the evidence overwhelmingly proves Oswald's guilt.
-
Oswald was always from childhood a quiet thoughtful non aggressive person as all his relatives, friends and anyone that knew him would and has testified.
This is true right up till his untimely end and so there is no way he would hurt a fly. :)
-
Being warned by a LNer is akin to seeing a shark's fin while swimming in the surf...
Just because one knows and refers to your foolishness does not make one an LNer.
https://www.jfkassassinationforum.com/index.php/topic,99.msg1042.html#msg1042
-
Yes, all the evidence is suspect and the product of fakery and lies going back months or years but no one is suggesting or implying there was a conspiracy.
Who said that all the evidence is suspect and the product of fakery and lies going back months or years? Do you ever get tired of just making sh!t up?
The dilemma for CTers is that they apply an impossible standard proof when it comes to Oswald's guilt. As a result nothing, including their closet conspiracy fantasy, can ever be proved under that standard.
Spoken like a guy trying to make excuses for his inability to prove his case beyond anything even approaching a reasonable doubt. It's the fault of everyone else for just not accepting it anyway.
-
There was a thread on this last year. It got really interesting. There was a lot of linked material.
We can try and revive it....
(http://www.patspeer.com/_/rsrc/1269013585390/chapter4b%3A%22theso-calledevidence%22/threads.jpg)
At 12:44, 14 minutes after the shooting, Dallas Police Inspector J. Herbert Sawyer called in a description of the presumed assassin. He announced: "The wanted person in this is a slender white male about 30, 5 feet 10, 165, carrying what looks to be a 30-30 or some type of Winchester." He was then asked to confirm that this was a rifle. He responded: "A rifle, yes." He was then asked "Any clothing description?" He responded "Current witness can't remember that."
As a side note the "slender white male about 30, 5 feet 10, 165" is the same exact description...word for word... of a guy that was in Mexico City claiming to be Lee Oswald. The middle name was also given...but it was not Harvey...it was Henry*
Meanwhile back to the shirt...
Motorcycle Officer Marrion Baker, who?d encountered Oswald in a stairway within a minute and a half of the shooting, described Oswald's clothing as different than the man seen in the window (11-22-63 Affidavit, 24H199): ?The man I saw was a white man approximately 30 years old, 5?9?, 165 pounds, dark hair and wearing a light brown jacket.?
I just posted this under the Oswald's Jacket thread...
A statement from Wes Frazier's sister.....
The complete post is here..
https://www.jfkassassinationforum.com/index.php/topic,124.msg16375.html#msg16375
There was this Mary Bledsoe woman who stated she was a former landlady of Oswald's.****************************************************************
Again asked about the shirt...************************************************************
This stuff about the shirt must have really bothered the Commission.
Ball would not let it go.Ball goes on and on...Enough for now about Bledsoe... :P
It continues like this for another page !!
http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/russ/testimony/bledsoe.htm
(http://www.patspeer.com/_/rsrc/1505767669414/chapter-4b-threads-of-evidence
/holeyshirt.jpg)
Was the shirt that Ms Randle saw, the same shirt that Patrolman Baker saw, & the same shirt that Ms Bledsoe saw which was the same shirt that Oswald was arrested in?
To be con't...all comments welcome.
Credit to Pat Speer's Threads of Evidence for picture links and some info.
Looks like the topic (The Shirt) of the title of this thread has slipped.....Let's try to put it back on track and discuss the shirt .
Was the shirt that Ms Randle saw, the same shirt that Patrolman Baker saw, & the same shirt that Ms Bledsoe saw which was the same shirt that Oswald was arrested in?
To be con't...all comments welcome.
"Was the shirt that Ms Randle saw, the same shirt that Patrolman Baker saw",
Most probably,.....the shirt that LMR saw was the same shirt that Officer Marrion Baker saw .... And I assume that you're referring to the reddish brown SHIRT that Lee was wearing in the second floor lunchroom at 12:32 pm 11/22/63. But this is NOT the tan (khaki) JACKET that Baker saw being worn by the man on either the third or fourth floor.
"the same shirt that Ms Bledsoe saw "
I don't believe Mrs Bledsoe....She was a senile old woman and I doubt that she was observant enough to know how Cecil Mc Watters was dressed.......
which was the same shirt that Oswald was arrested in?
Lee went to his room and changed his clothes.....IF Mrs Bledsoe made a mental note of the shirt.... that shirt would have been in the dresser in his room at 1026 N. Beckley and it was NOT the shirt that Lee was wearing at the theater.
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Wes Frazier whom Oswald rode right next to on the trip to work couldn't seem to remember his shirt.
Mr. FRAZIER - No, sir; I don't believe I have because most time I noticed when Lee had it, I say he put off his shirt and just wear a T-shirt the biggest part of the time so really what shirt he wore that day I really didn't see it or didn't pay enough attention to it whether he did have a shirt on.
Howard Brennan...claimed that the gunman was ?a white man in his early 30?s, slender, nice looking, slender and would weigh about 165 to 175 pounds. He had on light colored clothing?
...claimed that the man was standing up when aiming the rifle, but the sash window made this impossible; it was open only up to about waist height or knee high.
....was unable to pick out Oswald out of a line-up.
He was scared? Why? Probably more from the cops than a gang or from the boogie man.
Although the Warren Commission enthusiastically promoted Brennan as the star witness in its case against Oswald, the House Select Committee on Assassinations was more sceptical, and declined to use Brennan.
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Wes Frazier whom Oswald rode right next to on the trip to work couldn't seem to remember his shirt.Howard Brennan...claimed that the gunman was ?a white man in his early 30?s, slender, nice looking, slender and would weigh about 165 to 175 pounds. He had on light colored clothing?
...claimed that the man was standing up when aiming the rifle, but the sash window made this impossible; it was open only up to about waist height or knee high.
....was unable to pick out Oswald out of a line-up.
He was scared? Why? Probably more from the cops than a gang or from the boogie man.
Although the Warren Commission enthusiastically promoted Brennan as the star witness in its case against Oswald, the House Select Committee on Assassinations was more sceptical, and declined to use Brennan.
...claimed that the man was standing up when aiming the rifle, but the sash window made this impossible; it was open only up to about waist height or knee high.
but the sash window made this impossible;
Wait a minute.....What if Mr Brennan was not referring to the SE corner window?..... And he wasn't...He said that he had seen the man in the light colored clothing behind the SE corner window BEFORE the motorcade arrived....NOT during the shooting. Read Brennan's original affidavit.....He clearly is NOT referring to the SE corner window as the place that he saw the man STANDING and aiming a HUNTING RIFLE from a window.
was unable to pick out Oswald out of a line-up.
This is dead wrong......He knew that Lee was the man that the cops wanted him to put the finger on because he'd seen the TV reports which showed Lee's photo and heard that Lee Harrrrrrvey Osssssswald ( booooo! Hissss!) was the villain.
BUT he DID identify recognize Lee Oswald in the line up.... but he told the cops that of those men in the line-up, Lee looked the most like the gunman... but was NOT the gunman.
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Arnold Rowland was interviewed by the FBI Nov 25 63
I looked toward the Texas School Book Depository which faces the South and is located on the corner of Elm and Houston. I observed the two rectangular windows at the extreme west end of the Texas School Book Depository next to the top floor were open. I saw what I believed to be a man standing about 12 to 15 feet back from the window on the right. He appeared to be slender in proportion to his height, was wearing a white or light colored shirt, either collarless or open at the neck. He appeared to have dark hair. He also appeared to holding a rifle with scope attached, in a ready position or in military terminology, port arms. I saw him only momentarily and he seemed to disappear in the shadows of the room.
H 16 p954
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Arnold Rowland was interviewed by the FBI Nov 25 63
H 16 p954
They decided that Rowland lied about it all because he exaggerated his grades in school and he saw something that they didn't like.
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Arnold Rowland was interviewed by the FBI Nov 25 63
H 16 p954
Brennan saw the same man in basically the same place DURING the shooting.....Both Brennan and Rowland reported that the man with the high powered ( hunting) rifle was dressed in light colored clothing.
Lee Oswald was NOT dressed in light colored clothing at the TSBD that morning.
There were no shots fired from that SE corner window... And I doubt that there were any shots fired from anywhere in the TSBD.
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Really?
Mr. BELIN - Handing you what has been marked as Commission Exhibit 150, would this appear to be anything that you have ever seen before?
Mr. BAKER - Yes, sir; I believe that is the shirt that he had on when he came. I wouldn't be sure of that. It seemed to me like that other shirt was a little bit darker than that whenever I saw him in the homicide office there.
Mr. BELIN - Did you notice what clothes the man was wearing as he came up to you?
Mr. BAKER - At that particular time I was looking at his face, and it seemed to me like he had a light brown jacket on and maybe some kind of white-looking shirt.
Baker said the man he saw on either the third or fourth floor ( where the lighting was poor and dimly light) was wearing a light brown ( tan or khaki) JACKET.
Anyway, as I noticed him walking away from me, it was kind of dim in there that particular day, and it was hanging out to his side.
Mr. BELIN - Handing you what has been marked as Commission Exhibit 150, would this appear to be anything that you have ever seen before?
Mr. BAKER - Yes, sir; I believe that is the shirt that he had on when he came. I wouldn't be sure of that. It seemed to me like that other shirt was a little bit darker than that whenever I saw him in the homicide office there.
Baker acknowledges his awareness of TWO different shirts......The one he recalled from the TSBD was lighter than the shirt that Lee was wearing when he was arrested.
Mr. BELIN - What about when you saw him in the School Book Depository Building, does this look familiar as anything he was wearing, if you know?
Mr. BAKER - I couldn't say whether that was--it seemed to me it was a light-colored brown but I couldn't say it was that or not.
Mr. DULLES - Lighter brown did you say, I am just asking what you said. I couldn't quite hear.
Mr. BAKER - Yes, sir; all I can remember it was in my recollection of it it was a light brown jacket.
Mr. BELIN - Are you referring to this Exhibit 150 as being similar to the jacket or similar to the shirt that you saw or, if not, similar to either one?
Mr. BAKER - Well, it would be similar in color to it--I assume it was a jacket, it was hanging out. Now, I was looking at his face and I wasn't really paying any attention. After Mr. Truly said he knew him, so I didn't pay any attention to him, so I just turned and went on.
Mr. BELIN - Now, you did see him later at the police station, is that correct?
Mr. BAKER - Yes, sir.
Mr. BELIN - Was he wearing anything that looked like Exhibit 150 at the police station?
Mr. BAKER - He did have a brown-type shirt on that was out.
Mr. BELIN - Did it appear to be similar to any clothing you had seen when you saw him at the School Book Depository Building?
Mr. BAKER - I could have mistaken it for a jacket, but to my recollection it was a little colored jacket, that is all I can say.
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Mr. BELIN - Did you notice what clothes the man was wearing as he came up to you?
Mr. BAKER - At that particular time I was looking at his face, and it seemed to me like he had a light brown jacket on and maybe some kind of white-looking shirt.
Baker said the man he saw on either the third or fourth floor ( where the lighting was poor and dimly light) was wearing a light brown ( tan or khaki) JACKET.
Anyway, as I noticed him walking away from me, it was kind of dim in there that particular day, and it was hanging out to his side.
Mr. BELIN - Handing you what has been marked as Commission Exhibit 150, would this appear to be anything that you have ever seen before?
Mr. BAKER - Yes, sir; I believe that is the shirt that he had on when he came. I wouldn't be sure of that. It seemed to me like that other shirt was a little bit darker than that whenever I saw him in the homicide office there.
Baker acknowledges his awareness of TWO different shirts......The one he recalled from the TSBD was lighter than the shirt that Lee was wearing when he was arrested.
Mr. BELIN - What about when you saw him in the School Book Depository Building, does this look familiar as anything he was wearing, if you know?
Mr. BAKER - I couldn't say whether that was--it seemed to me it was a light-colored brown but I couldn't say it was that or not.
Mr. DULLES - Lighter brown did you say, I am just asking what you said. I couldn't quite hear.
Mr. BAKER - Yes, sir; all I can remember it was in my recollection of it it was a light brown jacket.
Mr. BELIN - Are you referring to this Exhibit 150 as being similar to the jacket or similar to the shirt that you saw or, if not, similar to either one?
Mr. BAKER - Well, it would be similar in color to it--I assume it was a jacket, it was hanging out. Now, I was looking at his face and I wasn't really paying any attention. After Mr. Truly said he knew him, so I didn't pay any attention to him, so I just turned and went on.
Mr. BELIN - Now, you did see him later at the police station, is that correct?
Mr. BAKER - Yes, sir.
Mr. BELIN - Was he wearing anything that looked like Exhibit 150 at the police station?
Mr. BAKER - He did have a brown-type shirt on that was out.
Mr. BELIN - Did it appear to be similar to any clothing you had seen when you saw him at the School Book Depository Building?
Mr. BAKER - I could have mistaken it for a jacket, but to my recollection it was a little colored jacket, that is all I can say.
Mr. BAKER - I could have mistaken it for a jacket, but to my recollection it was a little colored jacket, that is all I can say.
I believe that the word "little" is a typo.....my recollection it was a LIGHT colored JACKET,
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Mr. BAKER - I could have mistaken it for a jacket, but to my recollection it was a little colored jacket, that is all I can say.
I believe that the word "little" is a typo.....my recollection it was a LIGHT colored JACKET,
:D
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:D
Thank you.....So you agree that the word "little" doesn't make sense in the sentence ...."I could have mistaken it for a jacket, but to my recollection it was a little colored jacket," And it does make sense by changing the word "little " to "light".....
I could have mistaken it for a jacket, but to my recollection it was a light colored jacket,
The point being.....Baker stated that the man he saw walking away from him in a dimly lit area ( the lunchroom???)
was wearing a LIGHT COLORED JACKET. a JACKET!!... Not a brown shirt......
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There was a thread on this last year. It got really interesting. There was a lot of linked material.
We can try and revive it....
(http://www.patspeer.com/_/rsrc/1269013585390/chapter4b%3A%22theso-calledevidence%22/threads.jpg)
At 12:44, 14 minutes after the shooting, Dallas Police Inspector J. Herbert Sawyer called in a description of the presumed assassin. He announced: "The wanted person in this is a slender white male about 30, 5 feet 10, 165, carrying what looks to be a 30-30 or some type of Winchester." He was then asked to confirm that this was a rifle. He responded: "A rifle, yes." He was then asked "Any clothing description?" He responded "Current witness can't remember that."
As a side note the "slender white male about 30, 5 feet 10, 165" is the same exact description...word for word... of a guy that was in Mexico City claiming to be Lee Oswald. The middle name was also given...but it was not Harvey...it was Henry*
Meanwhile back to the shirt...
Motorcycle Officer Marrion Baker, who?d encountered Oswald in a stairway within a minute and a half of the shooting, described Oswald's clothing as different than the man seen in the window (11-22-63 Affidavit, 24H199): ?The man I saw was a white man approximately 30 years old, 5?9?, 165 pounds, dark hair and wearing a light brown jacket.?
I just posted this under the Oswald's Jacket thread...
A statement from Wes Frazier's sister.....
The complete post is here..
https://www.jfkassassinationforum.com/index.php/topic,124.msg16375.html#msg16375
There was this Mary Bledsoe woman who stated she was a former landlady of Oswald's.****************************************************************
Again asked about the shirt...************************************************************
This stuff about the shirt must have really bothered the Commission.
Ball would not let it go.Ball goes on and on...Enough for now about Bledsoe... :P
It continues like this for another page !!
http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/russ/testimony/bledsoe.htm
(http://www.patspeer.com/_/rsrc/1505767669414/chapter-4b-threads-of-evidence
/holeyshirt.jpg)
Was the shirt that Ms Randle saw, the same shirt that Patrolman Baker saw, & the same shirt that Ms Bledsoe saw which was the same shirt that Oswald was arrested in?
To be con't...all comments welcome.
Credit to Pat Speer's Threads of Evidence for picture links and some info.
Is there anybody who has done their homework on the shirt??
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Mr. BAKER - I could have mistaken it for a jacket, but to my recollection it was a little colored jacket, that is all I can say.
I believe that the word "little" is a typo.....my recollection it was a LIGHT colored JACKET,
Maybe that is what he said.
Meaning somewhat colored. Not heavily colored.
That's how he talked [see his youtube interviews]....another poorly educated southern cracker.
No offense to a hardworking guy.
The shirt that Oswald had worn to work was somewhat colored.... CE 151
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.......
The complete post is here..
https://www.jfkassassinationforum.com/index.php/topic,124.msg16375.html#msg16375
There was this Mary Bledsoe woman who stated she was a former landlady of Oswald's.****************************************************************
Again asked about the shirt...************************************************************
This stuff about the shirt must have really bothered the Commission.
Ball would not let it go.Ball goes on and on...Enough for now about Bledsoe... :P
It continues like this for another page !!
http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/russ/testimony/bledsoe.htm
(http://www.patspeer.com/_/rsrc/1505767669414/chapter-4b-threads-of-evidence
/holeyshirt.jpg)
Was the shirt that Ms Randle saw, the same shirt that Patrolman Baker saw, & the same shirt that Ms Bledsoe saw which was the same shirt that Oswald was arrested in?
To be con't...all comments welcome.
Credit to Pat Speer's Threads of Evidence for picture links and some info.
Mary Bledsoe's stepmother's death certificate:
She was a cousin of Bledsoe's ex-husband...
The person reporting her death, JR (Jewell Ralston) Germany, (Jr) was the son of the youngest brother
of Mary Bledsoe's father. JR Germany Sr https://www.findagrave.com/memorial/67531445/jewell-r.-germany
....was uncle of Mary Bledsoe AND RD Matthews!
JR Germany (Jr), https://www.findagrave.com/memorial/87462676/jewell-rawlston-germany
....reporting the death of Mary Bledsoe's stepmother, was the son of JR Germany Sr and Adelaide Seuter,
the sister of RD Matthew's mother. Mary Bledsoe, JR Germany Jr, and RD Matthews were each other's first cousins.:
Supporting details: https://www.jfkassassinationforum.com/index.php/topic,305.msg8410.html#msg8410
(https://i37.servimg.com/u/f37/17/60/28/90/bledso10.jpg)
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The shirt that Oswald had worn to work was somewhat colored.... CE 151
Mr. BELIN. Did you say hello, Lee?
Mr. GIVENS. No, sir; I didn't say anything to him. I just looked at him.
Mr. BELIN. Do you remember what he was wearing?
Mr. GIVENS. Well, I believe it was kind of a greenish looking shirt and pants was about the same color as his shirt, practically the same thing he wore all the time he worked there. He never changed clothes the whole time he worked there, and he would wear a grey looking jacket.