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JFK Assassination Discussion & Debate => JFK Assassination Discussion & Debate => Topic started by: J?rn Frending on May 22, 2018, 11:32:52 PM

Title: Tippit shooting: How to approach a murder suspect ...
Post by: J?rn Frending on May 22, 2018, 11:32:52 PM
Tippit was a ww2 parachuting veteran with 10 years of experience as a police officer in Dallas.

He is approaching a murder suspect who matches the description broadcast to him on radio.

However, he approaches the man keeping his gun IN THE HOLSTER and drives up TO THE SIDE of the man STAYING BEHIND the steering wheel engaging in a friendly conversation NOT asking him to KEEP HIS HANDS where he can see them. He does not even find it convenient to INFORM THE DISPATCHER of his intentions.
Title: Re: Tippit shooting: How to approach a murder suspect ...
Post by: J?rn Frending on May 22, 2018, 11:54:02 PM
The shooter is able to draw his gun and in rapid succession fire an old surplus revolver three times in double action mode hitting Tippit in a perfect vertical line, quickly and accurately, which means that Tippit did not have time to move even to inches to one side or the other before it was over ...

This would be more likely from a skilled well trained shooter with a proper gun ...
Title: Re: Tippit shooting: How to approach a murder suspect ...
Post by: Dan DAlimonte on May 23, 2018, 12:19:47 AM
Tippit was a ww2 parachuting veteran with 10 years of experience as a police officer in Dallas.

He is approaching a murder suspect who matches the description broadcast to him on radio.

However, he approaches the man keeping his gun IN THE HOLSTER and drives up TO THE SIDE of the man STAYING BEHIND the steering wheel engaging in a friendly conversation NOT asking him to KEEP HIS HANDS where he can see them. He does not even find it convenient to INFORM THE DISPATCHER of his intentions.

Hey, Jorn.  What you posted always bothered me as well.  Anyway you look at it,
Tippit did not consider the suspect a potential threat which is why I believe that the theory, they knew each other in a casual way ... like frequenting the same restaurant or diner in the morning before each of them went to work ... should be given some merit.
Hence the conversation through the small, side window.

Hey, Lee did you hear about the President being shot?

Now, what answer could Lee give before Tippit remembers ...
Hey, wait a minute doesn't he work on the same street.  What's he doing here?
Title: Re: Tippit shooting: How to approach a murder suspect ...
Post by: J?rn Frending on May 23, 2018, 12:27:19 AM
I started this topic because in another thread someone claimed that a .38 auto is the same as a .380 which is of course not true but to my astonishment nobody protested about it. I then realized how little or how poorly we actually treat the shooting event or gunfight it self.

The .38 AUTO is similar (close) in dimensions to the .38 special but as it is semi rimmed it can be used in both revolvers and automatics. It does read .38 AUTO on the headstamp to the contrary of other .38 calibers designed for revolvers only.

Some Webley Scott revolvers are chambered for this round as some popular surplus handguns of the time like the ASTRA 400 and the STAR MODEL AS. Obviously automatics allow much more rapid succession of firing shots, even the AUTOMATIC WEBLEY REVOLVER which was also chambered in this round.

Thus, being semi rimmed and similar in dimensions to the .38 Special, the .38 AUTO could probably cause some confusion or misunderstandings in stressful situations ...
Title: Re: Tippit shooting: How to approach a murder suspect ...
Post by: Walt Cakebread on May 23, 2018, 12:30:59 AM
Tippit was a ww2 parachuting veteran with 10 years of experience as a police officer in Dallas.

He is approaching a murder suspect who matches the description broadcast to him on radio.

However, he approaches the man keeping his gun IN THE HOLSTER and drives up TO THE SIDE of the man STAYING BEHIND the steering wheel engaging in a friendly conversation NOT asking him to KEEP HIS HANDS where he can see them. He does not even find it convenient to INFORM THE DISPATCHER of his intentions.

Do ya think that Tippit was drunk?
Title: Re: Tippit shooting: How to approach a murder suspect ...
Post by: J?rn Frending on May 23, 2018, 12:37:45 AM
[quote author=J?rn Frending link=topic=
Answering Dan:

Yes, it was a personal thing, kind of "stay away from my wife" situation, and then " You asked for it - let's settle this now" ...

If it was not personal, the suspect could just have run down the alley out of sight, "nothing to see here, move on" ...
Title: Re: Tippit shooting: How to approach a murder suspect ...
Post by: Richard Smith on May 23, 2018, 12:54:42 AM
Tippit was a ww2 parachuting veteran with 10 years of experience as a police officer in Dallas.

He is approaching a murder suspect who matches the description broadcast to him on radio.

However, he approaches the man keeping his gun IN THE HOLSTER and drives up TO THE SIDE of the man STAYING BEHIND the steering wheel engaging in a friendly conversation NOT asking him to KEEP HIS HANDS where he can see them. He does not even find it convenient to INFORM THE DISPATCHER of his intentions.

We will never know with certainty what drew Tippit's attention to Oswald.  Oswald likely did something that appeared suspicious to him.  There is no reason to believe Tippit stopped to talk with every male who matched the description of the assassin.  Thus, he was not approaching "a murder suspect" at the time but just someone who had attracted his attention.  And he decided to check it out.  Not unlike what drew Brewer's attention a short while later, it's likely Oswald tried to make himself inconspicuous when he saw a police car and Tippit recognized that as suspect behavior.   
Title: Re: Tippit shooting: How to approach a murder suspect ...
Post by: Jerry Freeman on May 23, 2018, 12:55:59 AM
I started this topic because in another thread someone claimed that a .38 auto is the same as a .380 which is of course not true but to my astonishment nobody protested about it.

So what?
A .380 ACP was fired from hammer-less pistols.
Either that or a .38  [automatic Colt pistol] is probably what Tippit was shot with [not by Oswald]
That Tippit 'approached a murder suspect' is a theory based on nothing.
 
Title: Re: Tippit shooting: How to approach a murder suspect ...
Post by: J?rn Frending on May 23, 2018, 01:02:50 AM
Do ya think that Tippit was drunk?

Hello Walt ...

Yes, whatever would make him fearless ... But being furious could have the same effect ... And it may well be so for those of us who have read about Tipper's "race" prior to this, but that's another story ...

I'm pleased to see that you seem to be well and do still keep people occupied on the forum ... (Smile)
Title: Re: Tippit shooting: How to approach a murder suspect ...
Post by: Jerry Freeman on May 23, 2018, 01:27:40 AM
Do ya think that Tippit was drunk?

Somebody was.
Because I read earlier that Tippit had made a phone call from a record store at the same time..he was getting shot!
Practically....
 
Quote
1:11:00 Top Ten Record shop owner J.W. Stark and clerk Louis Cortinas claim that Tippit came into the store on West Jefferson and made a phone call at this time. Getting no answer, Tippit reportedly left heading north to Sunset, then east. Helen Markham leaves her residence to catch a bus at Patton and Jefferson.
1:13:00 p.m.    Jimmy Burt and William Smith talk in the front yard of 505 East Tenth. Burt spots a man, believed to be Oswald, across the street walking west.
1:14:00 p.m. Helen Markham reaches the corner of Tenth and Patton and waits for traffic to pass, including Tippit's squad car headed east. She sees Tippit stop alongside Oswald, who is walking east.
1:14:20 p.m. Jack Tatum, driving west on Tenth, passes Tippit's squad car. Oswald, standing on the passenger side of Tippit's car, is leaning down talking to Tippit through the open vent window with both hands in his zipper jacket.
1:14:30 p.m.    Oswald pulls a gun from under his jacket and shoots Tippit four times. He escapes headed south on Patton toward Jefferson, as Barbara and Virginia Davis watch.
1:18:59 p.m. An ambulance arrives at the Tippit shooting scene. Several citizens help attendants load Tippit's body. They depart within a minute.   
https://www.jdtippit.com/timetable_nov.htm

   Notice how it all comes down to precisely the nearest second? ::)   
 
Title: Re: Tippit shooting: How to approach a murder suspect ...
Post by: Walt Cakebread on May 23, 2018, 02:18:30 PM
Hello Walt ...

Yes, whatever would make him fearless ... But being furious could have the same effect ... And it may well be so for those of us who have read about Tipper's "race" prior to this, but that's another story ...

I'm pleased to see that you seem to be well and do still keep people occupied on the forum ... (Smile)

Hi Jorn....I'm happy to see you posting again....  I hope you're in good health.   

Clearly you've done your homework or have acquired  the knowledge through experience, about the differences between the .38 caliber ...the .38 special.... the 38 auto and the 380 auto.   

However, I believe you've slipped a bit in this statement.   

I started this topic because in another thread someone claimed that a .38 auto is the same as a .380 which is of course not true but to my astonishment nobody protested about it. I then realized how little or how poorly we actually treat the shooting event or gunfight it self.

The .38 AUTO is similar (close) in dimensions to the .38 special but as it is semi rimmed it can be used in both revolvers and automatics. It does read .38 AUTO on the headstamp to the contrary of other .38 calibers designed for revolvers only.

The 38 ACP cartridge case ( .900") is only about 3/4 as long as a 38 special case ( 1.155") .

But I most certainly believe you're right on the mark in this statement.... "I then realized how little or how poorly we actually treat the shooting event or gunfight it self."

You're absolutely right...The event itself has been brushed aside and details ignored....   As you've so aptly pointed out the "gunfight" was no gunfight at all....  A trained and alert police officer was outdrawn and killed in the blink of an eye.

This was no act of a casual "plinker"....   Whoever shot JD Tippit was a professional and very good with a handgun. all of his shots hit in the upper body....   And he wasn't using an old worn out S&W revolver.........
Title: Re: Tippit shooting: How to approach a murder suspect ...
Post by: J?rn Frending on May 23, 2018, 04:04:08 PM
Hi Jorn....I'm happy to see you posting again....  I hope you're in good health.   

Clearly you've done your homework or have acquired  the knowledge through experience, about the differences between the .38 caliber ...the .38 special.... the 38 auto and the 380 auto.   

However, I believe you've slipped a bit in this statement.   

I started this topic because in another thread someone claimed that a .38 auto is the same as a .380 which is of course not true but to my astonishment nobody protested about it. I then realized how little or how poorly we actually treat the shooting event or gunfight it self.

The .38 AUTO is similar (close) in dimensions to the .38 special but as it is semi rimmed it can be used in both revolvers and automatics. It does read .38 AUTO on the headstamp to the contrary of other .38 calibers designed for revolvers only.

The 38 ACP cartridge case ( .900") is only about 3/4 as long as a 38 special case ( 1.155") .

But I most certainly believe you're right on the mark in this statement.... "I then realized how little or how poorly we actually treat the shooting event or gunfight it self."

You're absolutely right...The event itself has been brushed aside and details ignored....   As you've so aptly pointed out the "gunfight" was no gunfight at all....  A trained and alert police officer was outdrawn and killed in the blink of an eye.

This was no act of a casual "plinker"....   Whoever shot JD Tippit was a professional and very good with a handgun. all of his shots hit in the upper body....   And he wasn't using an old worn out S&W revolver.........

Thanks Walt, yes there are some indications that we are talking of an excellent shooter.

Tippet already had his gun out and (since he fell on it) got the hits in the time he tried to raise it. This means that the shots came fairly quickly.

From an old drawing or photograph I remember seeing that the shots were spaced but placed in the same (imaginary) vertical line.

When shooting at a narrow but tall target you risk that the shots miss to either side if you are trying to keep the gun still.

However, if you move the gun in an upwards or downwards movement WHILE SHOOTING there is a greater chance that you don't miss although you may not necessarily hit  dead center on every shot, but it enables you to shoot even when walking.

Now, this is not a shooting fashion which you train at the range on a day out.

This could indicate that we are talking about another policeman or a set up.

However, please take this message an illustration of why this man seem to be so good. I want to keep this as a serious thread.
Title: Re: Tippit shooting: How to approach a murder suspect ...
Post by: Walt Cakebread on May 23, 2018, 04:40:16 PM
Spot on ... poor dumb cop!

The WC had two pointers unexpectedly thrown at them which were a direct thread to their agenda and thus had to be ignored:

Mr. BELIN. Where was the police car parked?
Mrs. DAVIS. It was parked between the hedge that marks the apartment house where he lives in and the house next door.


Mr. BELIN. Then what did you see?
Mr. SCOGGINS. I noticed he stopped down there, and I wasn't paying too much attention to the man, you see, just used to see him every day, but then I kind of looked down the street, saw this, someone, that looked to me like he was going west, now, I couldn't exactly say whether he was going west or was in the process of turning around, but he was facing west when I saw him.


"poor dumb cop!"

Yes, indeed..... Isn't this exactly what a PRO might utter ?      The "poor dumb cop" should never have reached for his revolver....  That action triggered the response that ended his life.

Scoggins ... "I couldn't exactly say whether he was going west or was in the process of turning around, but he was facing west when I saw him."

And Helen Markham said that the man that Tippit was tailing  was walking west......Which makes the idea that the man was Lee Oswald even more absurd.

Title: Re: Tippit shooting: How to approach a murder suspect ...
Post by: Walt Cakebread on May 23, 2018, 04:56:23 PM
Thanks Walt, yes there are some indications that we are talking of an excellent shooter.

Tippet already had his gun out and (since he fell on it) got the hits in the time he tried to raise it. This means that the shots came fairly quickly.

From an old drawing or photograph I remember seeing that the shots were spaced but placed in the same (imaginary) vertical line.

When shooting at a narrow but tall target you risk that the shots miss to either side if you are trying to keep the gun still.

However, if you move the gun in an upwards or downwards movement WHILE SHOOTING there is a greater chance that you don't miss although you may not necessarily hit  dead center on every shot, but it enables you to shoot even when walking.

Now, this is not a shooting fashion which you train at the range on a day out.

This could indicate that we are talking about another policeman or a set up.

However, please take this message an illustration of why this man seem to be so good. I want to keep this as a serious thread.

"yes there are some indications that we are talking of an excellent shooter."

I would add... That this eliminates Lee Oswald as the killer.   To become as proficient as the killer was, it takes a lot of practice and many cartons of ammunition.....Lee Oswald had neither the time nor the money required to burn up cartons of ammo....

Title: Re: Tippit shooting: How to approach a murder suspect ...
Post by: Jerry Freeman on May 23, 2018, 05:15:59 PM

Mrs. DAVIS. It was parked between the hedge that marks the apartment house where he lives in and the house next door. [/i]

 

Would add for the readers that Tippit didn't 'live' there...I believe that it was his girlfriend that did.
What sayeth Walt and others?
Title: Re: Tippit shooting: How to approach a murder suspect ...
Post by: Louis Earl on May 23, 2018, 05:52:11 PM
Does anyone know where Tippit's girlfriend DID live?
Title: Re: Tippit shooting: How to approach a murder suspect ...
Post by: Mike Orr on May 23, 2018, 06:06:05 PM
Oswald was a poor shooter as his Marine Corps buddies have attested to . Shoot at the wrong target , Maggies Drawers and all of the above. Tippit was shot down  with 4 shots and one of those shots was the Coup De Grace to the head . The Coup D'etat was given to JFK a little earlier and there might be a connection involving Roscoe White changing into civilian clothes along with an Oswald lookalike to implicate LHO.White might have shot JFK and LHO. Different shells found at the murder scene . Two different LHO's at the Texas Theater. One arrested and taken out the front and one arrested and taken out the back J. Edgar Hoover memo of possible LHO impersonator in 1960. They played LHO like a fine tuned Violin . All of this set up to kill LHO and it came down to Ruby having to do the deed on National TV. I don't think LHO was supposed to leave the Texas Theater , " ALIVE "!!!!  Keystone Cops !!!! I think Badgeman = Roscoe White !!!!!
Title: Re: Tippit shooting: How to approach a murder suspect ...
Post by: Walt Cakebread on May 23, 2018, 06:58:41 PM
Oswald was a poor shooter as his Marine Corps buddies have attested to . Shoot at the wrong target , Maggies Drawers and all of the above. Tippit was shot down  with 4 shots and one of those shots was the Coup De Grace to the head . The Coup D'etat was given to JFK a little earlier and there might be a connection involving Roscoe White changing into civilian clothes along with an Oswald lookalike to implicate LHO.White might have shot JFK and LHO. Different shells found at the murder scene . Two different LHO's at the Texas Theater. One arrested and taken out the front and one arrested and taken out the back J. Edgar Hoover memo of possible LHO impersonator in 1960. They played LHO like a fine tuned Violin . All of this set up to kill LHO and it came down to Ruby having to do the deed on National TV. I don't think LHO was supposed to leave the Texas Theater , " ALIVE "!!!!  Keystone Cops !!!! I think Badgeman = Roscoe White !!!!!

You may be right Mike....  Roscoe might have been the rascal....  But there is little solid evidence to link him to the murders.     
Title: Re: Tippit shooting: How to approach a murder suspect ...
Post by: Bill Brown on May 23, 2018, 07:31:41 PM
Thanks Walt, yes there are some indications that we are talking of an excellent shooter.

Tippet already had his gun out and (since he fell on it) got the hits in the time he tried to raise it. This means that the shots came fairly quickly.

From an old drawing or photograph I remember seeing that the shots were spaced but placed in the same (imaginary) vertical line.

When shooting at a narrow but tall target you risk that the shots miss to either side if you are trying to keep the gun still.

However, if you move the gun in an upwards or downwards movement WHILE SHOOTING there is a greater chance that you don't miss although you may not necessarily hit  dead center on every shot, but it enables you to shoot even when walking.

Now, this is not a shooting fashion which you train at the range on a day out.

This could indicate that we are talking about another policeman or a set up.

However, please take this message an illustration of why this man seem to be so good. I want to keep this as a serious thread.

No.

The three shots which hit Tippit's torso were not "in the same (imaginary) vertical line".  In fact, far from it.
Title: Re: Tippit shooting: How to approach a murder suspect ...
Post by: Bill Brown on May 23, 2018, 07:38:29 PM
"poor dumb cop!"

Yes, indeed..... Isn't this exactly what a PRO might utter ?      The "poor dumb cop" should never have reached for his revolver....  That action triggered the response that ended his life.

Scoggins ... "I couldn't exactly say whether he was going west or was in the process of turning around, but he was facing west when I saw him."

And Helen Markham said that the man that Tippit was tailing  was walking west......Which makes the idea that the man was Lee Oswald even more absurd.


Quote
And Helen Markham said that the man that Tippit was tailing  was walking west......Which makes the idea that the man was Lee Oswald even more absurd.

Please explain how Tippit (driving east on 10th) could be tailing a man who was walking towards him in a westerly direction.  I can't wait to hear this one.

Markham testified that the man was walking away from her.  This would have the man walking east along 10th.
Title: Re: Tippit shooting: How to approach a murder suspect ...
Post by: J?rn Frending on May 23, 2018, 08:57:34 PM
No.

The three shots which hit Tippit's torso were not "in the same (imaginary) vertical line".  In fact, far from it.

Hello Bill, when I saw this I remember that I saw it from the SIDE as if Tippit was standing with the right foot in front almost side ways thus making a smaller target, which is a typical shooting position, however I do not know if his wounds were ever probed in an autopsy. Obviously it's worth clarifying ...
Title: Re: Tippit shooting: How to approach a murder suspect ...
Post by: Howard Gee on May 23, 2018, 09:52:06 PM
Cop, for whatever reason, decides to stop suspect and talk to him.

Cop asks a few 'cop questions' such as 'where are you coming from/going to'.

Cop, for whatever reason, isn't entirely satisfied. Maybe the suspect seems jittery or the suspect is a wiseass, or tells the cop he's going shoe shopping for his daughter, or to see a movie. Doesn't matter.

Cop decides he's going to get out of his patrol car, search suspect, get ID.

Cop SHOULD have told suspect not to move and to keep his hands where they can be seen.

Suspect knows once Cop finds his weapon he's going to be detained and possibly arrested.

Cop, as he is exiting his vehicle, doesn't keep constant attention on suspect allowing suspect to get the drop on him.

Cop gets no further than the front fender of his vehicle when suspect unloads on him from less than 10 feet away.

Poor dumb cop.
Title: Re: Tippit shooting: How to approach a murder suspect ...
Post by: J?rn Frending on May 23, 2018, 11:40:50 PM
Hello Bill, when I saw this I remember that I saw it from the SIDE as if Tippit was standing with the right foot in front almost side ways thus making a smaller target, which is a typical shooting position, however I do not know if his wounds were ever probed in an autopsy. Obviously it's worth clarifying ...

I'm quoting myself now since I found the photo though I'm unaware of how to post it in this moment.

It's very much as I remember it, you just have to paint the wounds on your body, place yourself in front of a mirror, step one step forward with your right foot and raise your right arm to shoot.

You will now see how close together the shots are, two in a vertical line and one a little bit to the right ... It seems to be a matter very of perspective.

Definitely excellent shooting
Title: Re: Tippit shooting: How to approach a murder suspect ...
Post by: Jerry Freeman on May 24, 2018, 12:55:14 AM
  ...however I do not know if his wounds were ever probed in an autopsy. 

Report from the archives......
https://catalog.archives.gov/id/7461220
Title: Re: Tippit shooting: How to approach a murder suspect ...
Post by: Walt Cakebread on May 24, 2018, 01:53:57 AM

Please explain how Tippit (driving east on 10th) could be tailing a man who was walking towards him in a westerly direction.  I can't wait to hear this one.

Markham testified that the man was walking away from her.  This would have the man walking east along 10th.

Oooops...My mistake...   Scoggins ... "I couldn't exactly say whether he was going west or was in the process of turning around, but he was facing west when I saw him."

And Helen Markham said that the man that Tippit was tailing  was walking west.  east.....Which makes the idea that the man was Lee Oswald even more absurd.
Title: Re: Tippit shooting: How to approach a murder suspect ...
Post by: Mike Orr on May 24, 2018, 03:14:22 AM
Tippit's carelessness got him killed . There was a very good chance that Tippit at least knew one of the guys that shot him that day. It sounds like a plan that just didn't pan out as far as Tippit was concerned.
Title: Re: Tippit shooting: How to approach a murder suspect ...
Post by: Jerry Freeman on May 24, 2018, 04:52:37 AM
Officer J.D. Tippit told his son that morning, ?No matter what happens today, just remember I love you.? That was the last time his son saw his dad alive.
Now why would JD have said that?
 
Title: Re: Tippit shooting: How to approach a murder suspect ...
Post by: Bill Brown on May 24, 2018, 05:33:54 AM
Officer J.D. Tippit told his son that morning, ?No matter what happens today, just remember I love you.? That was the last time his son saw his dad alive.
Now why would JD have said that?

Myth.

Didn't happen.
Title: Re: Tippit shooting: How to approach a murder suspect ...
Post by: Mike Orr on May 24, 2018, 04:35:09 PM
Bill , when you say "myth."  Didn't happen  ,  referring to what J.D. Tippit might have said to his son on that fateful Friday !  Where did you get that information ?  We have heard so many , Didn't happen , No you are wrong and there is no way that there was a blasted out back of the head on JFK . I think , trying to solve this case is just not ever going to happen as far as the LNer's and CTer's are just so far apart with their thinking . Man , I would hate to hear the rhetoric between us on what happened during 9/11 !!!!!
Title: Re: Tippit shooting: How to approach a murder suspect ...
Post by: Richard Smith on May 24, 2018, 05:23:10 PM
Cop, for whatever reason, decides to stop suspect and talk to him.

Cop asks a few 'cop questions' such as 'where are you coming from/going to'.

Cop, for whatever reason, isn't entirely satisfied. Maybe the suspect seems jittery or the suspect is a wiseass, or tells the cop he's going shoe shopping for his daughter, or to see a movie. Doesn't matter.

Cop decides he's going to get out of his patrol car, search suspect, get ID.

Cop SHOULD have told suspect not to move and to keep his hands where they can be seen.

Suspect knows once Cop finds his weapon he's going to be detained and possibly arrested.

Cop, as he is exiting his vehicle, doesn't keep constant attention on suspect allowing suspect to get the drop on him.

Cop gets no further than the front fender of his vehicle when suspect unloads on him from less than 10 feet away.

Poor dumb cop.

That's exactly what happened.  We will never know with certainty what drew Tippit's attention to Oswald but we know that Brewer found him suspicious as well.  I don't believe Tippit stopped Oswald because he necessarily had any cause to associate him with the assassination per se.  He just found something about his behavior suspect and thought it worth checking out.  Whatever Oswald said didn't satisfy him and he steps out to further investigation.  Oswald has no idea at this point whether he has been identified as a suspect.   He can't risk identifying himself to a police officer.  So he either has to play this out and risk arrest or make his move while he can.
Title: Re: Tippit shooting: How to approach a murder suspect ...
Post by: Ray Mitcham on May 24, 2018, 05:35:06 PM
That's exactly what happened.  We will never know with certainty what drew Tippit's attention to Oswald but we know that Brewer found him suspicious as well.  I don't believe Tippit stopped Oswald because he necessarily had any cause to associate him with the assassination per se.  He just found something about his behavior suspect and thought it worth checking out.  Whatever Oswald said didn't satisfy him and he steps out to further investigation.  Oswald has no idea at this point whether he has been identified as a suspect.   He can't risk identifying himself to a police officer.  So he either has to play this out and risk arrest or make his move while he can.

How did Oswald get to that area so quickly, if he wasn't helped?
Title: Re: Tippit shooting: How to approach a murder suspect ...
Post by: Jerry Freeman on May 24, 2018, 05:48:33 PM
  Where did you get that information ? [Myth didn't happen]
Dale Myers 'With Malice' states that in his book...a false claim
Another volume of the Warren Commission got it right publication to add to Posner Bugliosi and the others

Links that claim Tippit said that to his son.....
 https://stevenhager420.wordpress.com/tag/j-d-tippit/
https://22novembernetwork.wordpress.com/2014/11/15/the-murder-of-j-d-tippit-by-s-r-dusty-rohde/comment-page-1/
In all fairness I would like to know exactly from who or where the story originated.
 
Title: Re: Tippit shooting: How to approach a murder suspect ...
Post by: Matt Grantham on May 24, 2018, 07:02:31 PM
Myth.

Didn't happen.

 This seems to be correct It would nice to chase down where these stories originate from, and perhaps give poor research the reprimand it deserves The story we still hear, from Fetzer I believe that Jackie was seen by one of the doctors holding a large piece of JFK in the hall outside his treatment room
Title: Re: Tippit shooting: How to approach a murder suspect ...
Post by: John Mytton on May 24, 2018, 07:43:11 PM
How did Oswald get to that area so quickly, if he wasn't helped?



 Walk: Thumb1:




JohnM
Title: Re: Tippit shooting: How to approach a murder suspect ...
Post by: Bill Brown on May 24, 2018, 08:02:50 PM
Hello Bill, when I saw this I remember that I saw it from the SIDE as if Tippit was standing with the right foot in front almost side ways thus making a smaller target, which is a typical shooting position, however I do not know if his wounds were ever probed in an autopsy. Obviously it's worth clarifying ...

Jorn,

When studying the entrance wounds in Tippit's torso, it is obvious that Tippit wasn't standing in the manner you're describing.
Title: Re: Tippit shooting: How to approach a murder suspect ...
Post by: Bill Brown on May 24, 2018, 08:47:41 PM
Bill , when you say "myth."  Didn't happen  ,  referring to what J.D. Tippit might have said to his son on that fateful Friday !  Where did you get that information ?

In 2004, Allen Tippit himself told Dale Myers that the supposed conversation never took place.

Why are so many conspiracy advocates so eager to perpetuate lies drummed up by dishonest authors desperate to sell books?
Title: Re: Tippit shooting: How to approach a murder suspect ...
Post by: Jerry Freeman on May 24, 2018, 09:18:50 PM
How did Oswald get to that area so quickly, if he wasn't helped?

Who hasn't seen that video "Could Oswald have walked it?"
These guys had an agenda.
We have a cop to kill so let's make it happen. March march march- bang.
Forget about where in hell he might be headed...why in hell he headed there.... Time for reaction calling out on the squad radio etc.
And then a pronouncement of a man's death all in 25 minutes.
Convinced?
Title: Re: Tippit shooting: How to approach a murder suspect ...
Post by: Howard Gee on May 24, 2018, 09:36:03 PM
Who hasn't seen that video "Could Oswald have walked it?"
These guys had an agenda.
We have a cop to kill so let's make it happen. March march march- bang.
Forget about where in hell he might be headed...why in hell he headed there.... Time for reaction calling out on the squad radio etc.
And then a pronouncement of a man's death all in 25 minutes.
Convinced?

Yeah they had an agenda - finding out if Oswald could have walked it.

Too bad you don't like the answer.

Where he was headed  and why he was heading there isn't germaine to the central question of could he have walked to the scene of the JDT murder in time to do the deed.
Title: Re: Tippit shooting: How to approach a murder suspect ...
Post by: Jerry Freeman on May 24, 2018, 09:58:19 PM
So Oswald's agenda was to get there as fast as he could and shoot a cop...OK
Title: Re: Tippit shooting: How to approach a murder suspect ...
Post by: Howard Gee on May 24, 2018, 10:15:38 PM
YOU were the one that claimed the producers of the 'Could he have walked it' had an agenda.

"Who hasn't seen that video "Could Oswald have walked it?"
These guys had an agenda."

Sound familiar ?
.
No one said anything about Saint Oz having an agenda to murder JDT.

Of course, that's what he wound up doing, but it wasn't planned.
Title: Re: Tippit shooting: How to approach a murder suspect ...
Post by: John Iacoletti on May 24, 2018, 11:20:22 PM
Cop, for whatever reason, decides to stop suspect and talk to him.

Cop asks a few 'cop questions' such as 'where are you coming from/going to'.

Cop, for whatever reason, isn't entirely satisfied. Maybe the suspect seems jittery or the suspect is a wiseass, or tells the cop he's going shoe shopping for his daughter, or to see a movie. Doesn't matter.

Cop decides he's going to get out of his patrol car, search suspect, get ID.

Cop SHOULD have told suspect not to move and to keep his hands where they can be seen.

Suspect knows once Cop finds his weapon he's going to be detained and possibly arrested.

Cop, as he is exiting his vehicle, doesn't keep constant attention on suspect allowing suspect to get the drop on him.

Cop gets no further than the front fender of his vehicle when suspect unloads on him from less than 10 feet away.

Poor dumb cop.

Cool story, bro.
Title: Re: Tippit shooting: How to approach a murder suspect ...
Post by: John Iacoletti on May 24, 2018, 11:26:35 PM
That's exactly what happened.  We will never know with certainty what drew Tippit's attention to Oswald but we know that Brewer found him suspicious as well.  I don't believe Tippit stopped Oswald because he necessarily had any cause to associate him with the assassination per se.  He just found something about his behavior suspect and thought it worth checking out.  Whatever Oswald said didn't satisfy him and he steps out to further investigation.  Oswald has no idea at this point whether he has been identified as a suspect.   He can't risk identifying himself to a police officer.  So he either has to play this out and risk arrest or make his move while he can.

Why didn't he just show the cop the "Hidell" ID that he allegedly had on him?
Title: Re: Tippit shooting: How to approach a murder suspect ...
Post by: John Iacoletti on May 24, 2018, 11:27:55 PM
In 2004, Allen Tippit himself told Dale Myers that the supposed conversation never took place.

Why are so many conspiracy advocates so eager to perpetuate lies drummed up by dishonest authors desperate to sell books?

Same reason you're so eager to perpetuate stories drummed up by Dale Myers.
Title: Re: Tippit shooting: How to approach a murder suspect ...
Post by: John Iacoletti on May 24, 2018, 11:31:20 PM
Tippit was a ww2 parachuting veteran with 10 years of experience as a police officer in Dallas.

He is approaching a murder suspect who matches the description broadcast to him on radio.

However, he approaches the man keeping his gun IN THE HOLSTER and drives up TO THE SIDE of the man STAYING BEHIND the steering wheel engaging in a friendly conversation NOT asking him to KEEP HIS HANDS where he can see them. He does not even find it convenient to INFORM THE DISPATCHER of his intentions.

He was a bit distracted by whoever/whatever he was looking for that caused him to run James Andrews off the road and look in the space between his front and back seats.
Title: Re: Tippit shooting: How to approach a murder suspect ...
Post by: John Iacoletti on May 24, 2018, 11:33:46 PM
Does anyone know where Tippit's girlfriend DID live?

Joyce Lee Witherspoon (aka, Joyce Lee McDonald or Joyce Lee Gordon) had once lived at 410 1/2 Tenth Street.
Title: Re: Tippit shooting: How to approach a murder suspect ...
Post by: John Mytton on May 24, 2018, 11:34:07 PM
Why didn't he just show the cop the "Hidell" ID that he allegedly had on him?




Because the jig was up, Oswald was seen killing Tippit, Oswald was seen acting suspiciously, Oswald had a revolver in his pants and Oswald didn't have a movie ticket.



JohnM
Title: Re: Tippit shooting: How to approach a murder suspect ...
Post by: John Iacoletti on May 24, 2018, 11:36:10 PM
Who hasn't seen that video "Could Oswald have walked it?"
These guys had an agenda.

Without knowing exactly when Oswald supposedly left the rooming house and exactly when Tippit was shot, it's an exercise in futility.
Title: Re: Tippit shooting: How to approach a murder suspect ...
Post by: John Iacoletti on May 24, 2018, 11:41:02 PM
Because the jig was up, Oswald was seen killing Tippit, Oswald was seen acting suspiciously, Oswald had a revolver in his pants and Oswald didn't have a movie ticket.

I'm talking about in Richard's made up narrative above about Oswald shooting Tippit because he "can't risk identifying himself to a police officer".
Title: Re: Tippit shooting: How to approach a murder suspect ...
Post by: John Mytton on May 24, 2018, 11:41:28 PM
Without knowing exactly when Oswald supposedly left the rooming house and exactly when Tippit was shot, it's an exercise in futility.





Exactly, the precise times are irrelevant because almost a dozen people identified Oswald at or lose to the corner of Tenth and Patton and the majority of these eyewitnesses describe Lee Harvey Oswald holding a small weapon.



JohnM
Title: Re: Tippit shooting: How to approach a murder suspect ...
Post by: John Mytton on May 24, 2018, 11:47:06 PM
I'm talking about in Richard's made up narrative above about Oswald shooting Tippit because he "can't risk identifying himself to a police officer".




Yeah the Hidell ID may have worked but for some reason it looks like Tippit got out of his car with his weapon out of it's holster and Oswald just panicked.



JohnM
Title: Re: Tippit shooting: How to approach a murder suspect ...
Post by: John Iacoletti on May 25, 2018, 12:29:24 AM
Exactly, the precise times are irrelevant because almost a dozen people identified Oswald at or lose to the corner of Tenth and Patton and the majority of these eyewitnesses describe Lee Harvey Oswald holding a small weapon.

You keep forgetting the part about "in unfair and biased lineups or from one or two photographs of just Oswald".
Title: Re: Tippit shooting: How to approach a murder suspect ...
Post by: John Iacoletti on May 25, 2018, 12:30:23 AM
Yeah the Hidell ID may have worked but for some reason it looks like Tippit got out of his car with his weapon out of it's holster and Oswald just panicked.

Even LNers think that Richard's fantasies are ridiculous!
Title: Re: Tippit shooting: How to approach a murder suspect ...
Post by: John Mytton on May 25, 2018, 12:40:59 AM
You keep forgetting the part about "in unfair and biased lineups or from one or two photographs of just Oswald".




You can't honestly expect clones, the lineups were alright, the following guys all look the same height and weight. If anything Oswald with a swelling over his eye and different clothes, looked nothing like he did at the time he murdered Tippit and this surely gave him an advantage. And don't forget we aren't talking about some murder in a dark alley this was outside in full on daylight and a stack of eyewitnesses all got a decent look at the guy with a gun.

(https://s7.postimg.cc/cm0kokx8b/oswaldlineupp_zps41oyt8mo.jpg)



JohnM
Title: Re: Tippit shooting: How to approach a murder suspect ...
Post by: Jerry Freeman on May 25, 2018, 12:43:33 AM
Without knowing exactly when Oswald supposedly left the rooming house and exactly when Tippit was shot, it's an exercise in futility.

By an agenda, I mean if you know where you are going and how long you have to get there....
You can march like a Nazi storm trooper and do the trip in 15 minutes.
Gerald Ford did it and even cut through an alley to save time.
A french poodle could do it.
But [supposedly] Oswald was either wandering aimlessly or he was going somewhere intentionally.
You can't have it both ways as it suits a theory.
From the scene of the crime at [call it 1:15, which is really late] then you have to stop the suspect..start to question him...be gunned down....then as the victim lay...people gather...someone has the presence of mind to radio the cops...an ambulance dispatched forthwith...and have a person declared deceased by a physician within the next 10 minutes? Impossible.
It's not that I don't 'like it' [presumed by that guy] It's that I just seriously doubt it.
Title: Re: Tippit shooting: How to approach a murder suspect ...
Post by: John Iacoletti on May 25, 2018, 06:32:21 PM
You can't honestly expect clones, the lineups were alright, the following guys all look the same height and weight.

These guys were teenagers.  But nice cherry-pick.  What "witnesses" attended the 4th lineup?  Scoggins?

It's not just about height and weight.

- The fillers were not chosen to resemble the witnesses' descriptions of the perpetrator
- There were only 3 fillers for the lineups and no fillers for the photo identifications
- The fillers were not dressed like Oswald
- The fillers were not dressed to match witnesses' descriptions of the perpetrator
- The person administering the lineup knew which person in the lineup was the suspect
- The witnesses did not view the lineups separately
- Some witnesses knew which man was the suspect before they attended the lineup
- Not all of the men were handcuffed together for the first lineup
- Witnesses were influenced by the physical appearances of both Oswald and the fillers
- Witnesses were influenced by Oswald's complaints about the fairness of the lineups
- Witnesses were intimidated or pressured by the authorities
- Witnesses were asked to sign affidavits which would include who they picked in the lineup before actually viewing the lineup
- The criminal justice system in Dallas County had a history of railroading suspects
Title: Re: Tippit shooting: How to approach a murder suspect ...
Post by: Louis Earl on May 26, 2018, 03:17:14 AM
Thank you
Title: Re: Tippit shooting: How to approach a murder suspect ...
Post by: Walt Cakebread on May 26, 2018, 08:54:37 PM
These guys were teenagers.  But nice cherry-pick.  What "witnesses" attended the 4th lineup?  Scoggins?

It's not just about height and weight.

- The fillers were not chosen to resemble the witnesses' descriptions of the perpetrator
- There were only 3 fillers for the lineups and no fillers for the photo identifications
- The fillers were not dressed like Oswald
- The fillers were not dressed to match witnesses' descriptions of the perpetrator
- The person administering the lineup knew which person in the lineup was the suspect
- The witnesses did not view the lineups separately
- Some witnesses knew which man was the suspect before they attended the lineup
- Not all of the men were handcuffed together for the first lineup
- Witnesses were influenced by the physical appearances of both Oswald and the fillers
- Witnesses were influenced by Oswald's complaints about the fairness of the lineups
- Witnesses were intimidated or pressured by the authorities
- Witnesses were asked to sign affidavits which would include who they picked in the lineup before actually viewing the lineup
- The criminal justice system in Dallas County had a history of railroading suspects

 Witnesses were intimidated or pressured by the authorities (Perpetraitors)  Yes, I know it's misspelled