JFK Assassination Forum
JFK Assassination Discussion & Debate => JFK Assassination Discussion & Debate => Topic started by: Walt Cakebread on May 14, 2018, 12:25:48 AM
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Lner's often cite the fragments that were recovered from the President's Lincoln as proof that the carcano was used to fire the bullet that fragmented in the Limo. (in spite of the fact that the "experts" weren't even sure that the fragments were all from one bullet.)
In a telephone conversation with LBJ on 11/23/63 J.Edgar Hoover told LBJ..."We have what we call slivers, which are not very valuable in the identification."
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Lner's often cite the fragments that were recovered from the President's Lincoln as proof that the carcano was used to fire the bullet that fragmented in the Limo. (in spite of the fact that the "experts" weren't even sure that the fragments were all from one bullet.)
In a telephone conversation with LBJ on 11/23/63 J.Edgar Hoover told LBJ..."We have what we call slivers, which are not very valuable in the identification."
The theory that the two fragments came from the same bullet fits Occam?s razor. There are two points of damage in the limousine. The cracked windshield and the dented windshield frame.
We have two theories:
Theory 1: A bullet fragmented into three. One fragment struck the windshield and cracked it and bounced back into the limousine. This fragment was found in the limousine. A second fragment from the same bullet dented the windshield frame and bounced back into the limousine. This fragment was also found in the limousine. While both the found fragments only account for 60% of the mass of a bullet, a third fragment must have just cleared the windshield and sun visors and wounded Mr. Tague.
Theory 2: Two bullets fragmented. One fragmented into two. One fragment hit the windshield and another fragment just cleared the windshield. The second bullet fragmented into two. One struck the windshield and the second also just cleared the windshield. Resulting in only two of the four fragments being found in the limousine.
While one bullet might fragment, causing one or more fragments to just hit the limousine, and one or more fragments to just clear the limousine, this is unlikely to occur twice, which Theory 2 requires. Also, with any luck, if Theory 2 was true, we might expect the two recovered fragments to weigh more than one bullet, which would alert us that these fragments came from two different bullets. But, as luck would have it, this didn?t happen.
Also, we have reason to believe only one bullet would fragment. We only have one wound that would cause such a bullet to fragment, JFK?s head wound. Only this wound would cause a bullet to strike bone with enough velocity to fragment. The wound in Connnally?s chest and wrist, is too far down to go on to hit the windshield, without striking the seat in front of him and too much flesh must be passed through, slowing the bullet too much to fragment in any case.
Theory 1, which is the simpler and more likely theory, is the one we should adopt, unless decisive evidence came up for Theory 2.
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Are you including what was found in JFK's skull at Bethesda?
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The theory that the two fragments came from the same bullet fits Occam?s razor. There are two points of damage in the limousine. The cracked windshield and the dented windshield frame.
We have two theories:
Theory 1: A bullet fragmented into three. One fragment struck the windshield and cracked it and bounced back into the limousine. This fragment was found in the limousine. A second fragment from the same bullet dented the windshield frame and bounced back into the limousine. This fragment was also found in the limousine. While both the found fragments only account for 60% of the mass of a bullet, a third fragment must have just cleared the windshield and sun visors and wounded Mr. Tague.
Theory 2: Two bullets fragmented. One fragmented into two. One fragment hit the windshield and another fragment just cleared the windshield. The second bullet fragmented into two. One struck the windshield and the second also just cleared the windshield. Resulting in only two of the four fragments being found in the limousine.
While one bullet might fragment, causing one or more fragments to just hit the limousine, and one or more fragments to just clear the limousine, this is unlikely to occur twice, which Theory 2 requires. Also, with any luck, if Theory 2 was true, we might expect the two recovered fragments to weigh more than one bullet, which would alert us that these fragments came from two different bullets. But, as luck would have it, this didn?t happen.
Also, we have reason to believe only one bullet would fragment. We only have one wound that would cause such a bullet to fragment, JFK?s head wound. Only this wound would cause a bullet to strike bone with enough velocity to fragment. The wound in Connnally?s chest and wrist, is too far down to go on to hit the windshield, without striking the seat in front of him and too much flesh must be passed through, slowing the bullet too much to fragment in any case.
Theory 1, which is the simpler and more likely theory, is the one we should adopt, unless decisive evidence came up for Theory 2.
We have two theories:
Theories? Really?
And since when are theories evidence in any shape or form?
Here's a bombshell; we don't even know for sure which (if any) of the fragments were actually found in the limo.
With an FBI team on their way to examine the limo forensically some completely unauthorised and unqualified guys went through the limo and allegedly removed physical evidence from it. Later, when they gave them to the FBI, they claimed these were the actual fragments that had been taken from the car. Evidence tampering 101?
Once again, like on so many other occassions in this case; no photographs in situ, no first hand forensic expertise involved in handling the evidence and no chain of custody by any reasonable standard of the law....
So, all you have are theories..... please give me a break!
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We have two theories:
Theories? Really?
And since when are theories evidence in any shape or form?
Here's a bombshell; we don't even know for sure which (if any) of the fragments were actually found in the limo.
With an FBI team on their way to examine the limo forensically some completely unauthorised and unqualified guys went through the limo and allegedly removed physical evidence from it. Later, when they gave them to the FBI, they claimed these were the actual fragments that had been taken from the car. Evidence tampering 101?
Once again, like on so many other occassions in this case; no photographs in situ, no first hand forensic expertise involved in handling the evidence and no chain of custody by any reasonable standard of the law....
These ?other guys? were Secret Service agents. Of course, you live in a conspiracy world, where everyone is suspect. Where this alleged conspiracy can recruit anyone they need to with no problem. The autopsy doctors. The Secret Service agents. The Dallas police. No problem at all, for believers in Large Secret Enduring Conspiracies.
So, all you have are theories..... please give me a break!
Reasonable people have theories. Unreasonable people have established truths in their heads that they cannot seriously question.
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So you have NO supporting evidence. Got it.
No. You don?t got it. There is supporting evidence.
Ballistic experts Robert Frazier and Joseph Nicol examined the stretcher bullet and the two fragments recovered from the limousine and determined that they were fired from the rifle found on the sixth floor of the TSBD, to the exclusion of all other rifles in the world.
Supporting evidence that the two fragments were from the same bullet? This is impossible to tell. But applying Occam?s Razor, a proven tool, shows that this is most probable.
It was, of course, impossible to determine that the two fragments came from the same bullet or from two different bullets. But two different bullets each leaving a fragment that stays in the limousine, while the other fragment leaves the limousine, is patently unlikely for the following reasons.
We know for a fact that a part of the bullet, or a part of both bullets did not strike the limousine. This is a fluke, to happen to one bullet. It would be a super fluke to happen to two separate bullets.
If the fragments were from one bullet, it was just by luck the bullet curved upwards in JFK?s head. A curve in any other direction would have resulted in all three fragments striking the limousine, likely resulting in the recovery of all three fragments within the limousine.
For the fragments to be from two different bullets, the following fluky events must have occurred.
** Both WCC/MC bullets had to fragment, which doesn?t always occur. It would only occur if both struck bone at near muzzle velocity. Like a bullet hitting the skull.
** Both bullets would have to curve upwards, allowing one fragment to be intercepted by the limousine and later recovered, and the other fragment to clear the limousine.
** If the fragments came from two different bullets, in both cases, it was the smaller fragment that stayed behind while the larger fragment escaped. If the opposite happened, the weight of the found fragments would be more than the weight of a single bullet, alerting us to the fact that the fragments came from two different bullets. Or if just one of the larger fragments was found, this would likely tell us that the fragments came from two different bullets.
** Both fragments came from different parts of the bullet. If the fragments came from the same part of the bullet, then we would know that two different bullets caused the fragments.
In conclusion, while it is possible that the fragments came from two different bullets, logic indicates that this is unlikely. Most likely, they came from the same bullet.
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These ?other guys? were Secret Service agents. Of course, you live in a conspiracy world, where everyone is suspect. Where this alleged conspiracy can recruit anyone they need to with no problem. The autopsy doctors. The Secret Service agents. The Dallas police. No problem at all, for believers in Large Secret Enduring Conspiracies.
Reasonable people have theories. Unreasonable people have established truths in their heads that they cannot seriously question.
These ?other guys? were Secret Service agents.
Do they have special permission to tamper with evidence?
Of course, you live in a conspiracy world, where everyone is suspect.
This is not about me. In your simple little world it seems to be ok to tamper with evidence as long as they have some sort of badge. Pathetic!
Where this alleged conspiracy can recruit anyone they need to with no problem. The autopsy doctors. The Secret Service agents. The Dallas police. No problem at all, for believers in Large Secret Enduring Conspiracies.
Here we go again... the classic LN argument. A conspiracy isn't possible because they needed to involved half the population of the world, right? Get some grip on reality, please!
Reasonable people have theories. Unreasonable people have established truths in their heads that they cannot seriously question.
Another LN argument
Translation; reasonable people agree with the crap I write and unreasonable people don't
You will never understand just how stupid that argument sounds, will you now?
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No. You don?t got it. There is supporting evidence.
Ballistic experts Robert Frazier and Joseph Nicol examined the stretcher bullet and the two fragments recovered from the limousine and determined that they were fired from the rifle found on the sixth floor of the TSBD, to the exclusion of all other rifles in the world.
Supporting evidence that the two fragments were from the same bullet? This is impossible to tell. But applying Occam?s Razor, a proven tool, shows that this is most probable.
It was, of course, impossible to determine that the two fragments came from the same bullet or from two different bullets. But two different bullets each leaving a fragment that stays in the limousine, while the other fragment leaves the limousine, is patently unlikely for the following reasons.
We know for a fact that a part of the bullet, or a part of both bullets did not strike the limousine. This is a fluke, to happen to one bullet. It would be a super fluke to happen to two separate bullets.
If the fragments were from one bullet, it was just by luck the bullet curved upwards in JFK?s head. A curve in any other direction would have resulted in all three fragments striking the limousine, likely resulting in the recovery of all three fragments within the limousine.
For the fragments to be from two different bullets, the following fluky events must have occurred.
** Both WCC/MC bullets had to fragment, which doesn?t always occur. It would only occur if both struck bone at near muzzle velocity. Like a bullet hitting the skull.
** Both bullets would have to curve upwards, allowing one fragment to be intercepted by the limousine and later recovered, and the other fragment to clear the limousine.
** If the fragments came from two different bullets, in both cases, it was the smaller fragment that stayed behind while the larger fragment escaped. If the opposite happened, the weight of the found fragments would be more than the weight of a single bullet, alerting us to the fact that the fragments came from two different bullets. Or if just one of the larger fragments was found, this would likely tell us that the fragments came from two different bullets.
** Both fragments came from different parts of the bullet. If the fragments came from the same part of the bullet, then we would know that two different bullets caused the fragments.
In conclusion, while it is possible that the fragments came from two different bullets, logic indicates that this is unlikely. Most likely, they came from the same bullet.
Ballistic experts Robert Frazier and Joseph Nicol examined the stretcher bullet and the two fragments recovered from the limousine and determined that they were fired from the rifle found on the sixth floor of the TSBD, to the exclusion of all other rifles in the world.
Briliant, Einstein... now show conclusively that CE 399 and the fragments now in evidence are indeed the same as the bullet found at Parkland and the fragments found in the car..... can you do that?
Here's news for you; if you can't show that, everything else in your post falls apart and all you are left with is what you (want to) believe
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These ?other guys? were Secret Service agents.
Do they have special permission to tamper with evidence?
So, you believe this Large Secret Enduring Conspiracy had no problem recruiting the Secret Service to take part. Or do you deny this?
Of course, you live in a conspiracy world, where everyone is suspect.
This is not about me. In your simple little world it seems to be ok to tamper with evidence as long as they have some sort of badge. Pathetic!
Who told them not to search the limousine?
Where this alleged conspiracy can recruit anyone they need to with no problem. The autopsy doctors. The Secret Service agents. The Dallas police. No problem at all, for believers in Large Secret Enduring Conspiracies.
Here we go again... the classic LN argument. A conspiracy isn't possible because they needed to involved half the population of the world, right? Get some grip on reality, please!
CTers, yourself included, don?t provide a complete list of all the evidence that was faked. Of all the people who were likely involved in the conspiracy. You can only fail to do so if the amount of faked evidence is too long to list. If the number of conspirators is too long to list. Hence, the logical conclusion that you are a believer in Large Secret Enduring Conspiracies. But if you are not, give me some reason to believe you are not. Give me a couple of lists.
Reasonable people have theories. Unreasonable people have established truths in their heads that they cannot seriously question.
Another LN argument
Translation; reasonable people agree with the crap I write and unreasonable people don't
You will never understand just how stupid that argument sounds, will you now?
Stupid for me to point out that it is reasonable to have theories, and not concrete beliefs that cannot be questioned?
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These ?other guys? were Secret Service agents.
Do they have special permission to tamper with evidence?
So, you believe this Large Secret Enduring Conspiracy had no problem recruiting the Secret Service to take part. Or do you deny this?
Why don't you answer my question instead of asking one?
And btw stop guessing about what I believe or not. You're not very good at it anyway.
Of course, you live in a conspiracy world, where everyone is suspect.
This is not about me. In your simple little world it seems to be ok to tamper with evidence as long as they have some sort of badge. Pathetic!
Who told them not to search the limousine?
Since when do they need to be told not to do something? Even the biggest idiot knows not to mess with a crime scene, doesn't he?
Where this alleged conspiracy can recruit anyone they need to with no problem. The autopsy doctors. The Secret Service agents. The Dallas police. No problem at all, for believers in Large Secret Enduring Conspiracies.
Here we go again... the classic LN argument. A conspiracy isn't possible because they needed to involved half the population of the world, right? Get some grip on reality, please!
CTers, yourself included, don?t provide a complete list of all the evidence that was faked. Of all the people who were likely involved in the conspiracy. You can only fail to do so if the amount of faked evidence is too long to list. If the number of conspirators is too long to list. Hence, the logical conclusion that you are a believer in Large Secret Enduring Conspiracies. But if you are not, give me some reason to believe you are not. Give me a couple of lists.
Evidence doesn't have to be fake to be misleading. It can be manipulated and misrepresented just as easily. The best lie is the one that stays as close to the truth as it can be. Hide the obvious deception in plain sight and hope nobody will notice.....
I don't really care what you believe or not about what my opinion is. This isn't about me. And as far as your "logical conclusion" is concerned..... the most logical thing for me to do seems to be to ignore it as an obvious delusion.
Reasonable people have theories. Unreasonable people have established truths in their heads that they cannot seriously question.
Another LN argument
Translation; reasonable people agree with the crap I write and unreasonable people don't
You will never understand just how stupid that argument sounds, will you now?
Stupid for me to point out that it is reasonable to have theories, and not concrete beliefs that cannot be questioned?
You understand my comment exactly. No need to add anything more!
Btw I thought we were discussion some pieces of physical evidence and not your obsession with CTs who you think believe in large scale conspiracies.... Seems I was mistaken.
Do you think you can manage any time soon to show conclusively that CE 399 and the fragments now in evidence are indeed the same as the bullet found at Parkland and the fragments found in the car, or do you require more time?
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Ballistic experts Robert Frazier and Joseph Nicol examined the stretcher bullet and the two fragments recovered from the limousine and determined that they were fired from the rifle found on the sixth floor of the TSBD, to the exclusion of all other rifles in the world.
Briliant, Einstein... now show conclusively that CE 399 and the fragments now in evidence are indeed the same as the bullet found at Parkland and the fragments found in the car..... can you do that?
Here's news for you; if you can't show that, everything else in your post falls apart and all you are left with is what you (want to) believe
Ballistic experts Robert Frazier and Joseph Nicol examined the stretcher bullet and the two fragments recovered from the limousine and determined that they were fired from the rifle found on the sixth floor of the TSBD, to the exclusion of all other rifles in the world.
In a telephone conversation with LBJ on 11/23/63 J.Edgar Hoover told LBJ..."We have what we call slivers, which are not very valuable in the identification."
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In conclusion, while it is possible that the fragments came from two different bullets, logic indicates that this is unlikely. Most likely, they came from the same bullet.
Joe Elliot, I think your conclusion is correct and your analysis is pretty darned good.
It should be noted that regardless of whether the fragments came from one bullet or two, they are devastating evidence against LHO.
"Ballistic experts Robert Frazier and Joseph Nicol examined the stretcher bullet and the two fragments recovered from the limousine and determined that they were fired from the rifle found on the sixth floor of the TSBD, to the exclusion of all other rifles in the world."
Since we know the fragments came from bullets fired by C2766, unless the fragments were planted - and all the evidence showing Saint Oz ordered, paid for, and possessed C2766 is fabricated - we can only conclude that Saint Oz is guilty.
That is unless someone stole Saint Oz's rifle from the garage and used it to assassinate JFK.
LHO: GUILTY BEYOND A REASONABLE DOUBT
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Joe Elliot, I think your conclusion is correct and your analysis is pretty darned good.
It should be noted that regardless of whether the fragments came from one bullet or two, they are devastating evidence against LHO.
"Ballistic experts Robert Frazier and Joseph Nicol examined the stretcher bullet and the two fragments recovered from the limousine and determined that they were fired from the rifle found on the sixth floor of the TSBD, to the exclusion of all other rifles in the world."
Since we know the fragments came from bullets fired by C2766, unless the fragments were planted - and all the evidence showing Saint Oz ordered, paid for, and possessed C2766 is fabricated - we can only conclude that Saint Oz is guilty.
That is unless someone stole Saint Oz's rifle from the garage and used it to assassinate JFK.
LHO: GUILTY BEYOND A REASONABLE DOUBT
Since we know the fragments came from bullets fired by C2766,
Gee Howie.....perhaps you should that a refresher course in reading comprehension.
In a telephone conversation with LBJ on 11/23/63 J.Edgar Hoover told LBJ..."We have what we call slivers, which are not very valuable in the identification."
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Since we know the fragments came from bullets fired by C2766,
Gee Howie.....perhaps you should that a refresher course in reading comprehension.
In a telephone conversation with LBJ on 11/23/63 J.Edgar Hoover told LBJ..."We have what we call slivers, which are not very valuable in the identification."
Walter, unfortunately for you and the Saint Oz defense team, more than just slivers were found in the limo, regardless of what Hoover told LBJ on 11/23/63.
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Walter, unfortunately for you and the Saint Oz defense team, more than just slivers were found in the limo, regardless of what Hoover told LBJ on 11/23/63.
"more than just slivers were found in the limo, regardless of what Hoover told LBJ on 11/23/63."
Oh really, Howie? So you think that simply because you lack the vocabulary that would enable you to understand that Hoover used a different word to describe the bullet fragments and he referred to the fragments as "slivers "......Then there were more pieces of a bullet found in the limo. Please enlighten me about these pieces of a bullet(s) .....
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"more than just slivers were found in the limo, regardless of what Hoover told LBJ on 11/23/63."
Oh really, Howie? So you think that simply because you lack the vocabulary that would enable you to understand that Hoover used a different word to describe the bullet fragments and he referred to the fragments as "slivers "......Then there were more pieces of a bullet found in the limo. Please enlighten me about these pieces of a bullet(s) .....
Walt, I'm not sure you're capable of being enlightened.
If you want to insist that the two large fragments found in the limo were merely slivers because that's what Hoover said on 11/23/63, go right ahead.
I understand how devastating the fragment evidence is to Saint Oz's defense team, and can't blame you for trying to deny it's existence.
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Walt, I'm not sure you're capable of being enlightened.
If you want to insist that the two large fragments found in the limo were merely slivers because that's what Hoover said on 11/23/63, go right ahead.
I understand how devastating the fragment evidence is to Saint Oz's defense team, and can't blame you for trying to deny it's existence.
I understand how devastating the fragment evidence is
In a telephone conversation with LBJ on 11/23/63 J.Edgar Hoover told LBJ..."We have (fragments) what we call slivers, which are not very valuable in the identification."
It seems to me that J. Edgar's statement to LBJ is far more devastating to your contention .... J. Edgar Hoover clearly told Lyin Bastroid Johnson that the fragments were NOT very valuable for identification purposes.....
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Theory 1: A bullet fragmented into three. One fragment struck the windshield and cracked it and bounced back into the limousine. This fragment was found in the limousine. A second fragment from the same bullet dented the windshield frame and bounced back into the limousine. This fragment was also found in the limousine. While both the found fragments only account for 60% of the mass of a bullet, a third fragment must have just cleared the windshield and sun visors and wounded Mr. Tague.
Unfortunately, Tague said there was another shot after he was hit.
While one bullet might fragment, causing one or more fragments to just hit the limousine, and one or more fragments to just clear the limousine, this is unlikely to occur twice, which Theory 2 requires.
Why is this "unlikely to occur twice"?
Also, we have reason to believe only one bullet would fragment. We only have one wound that would cause such a bullet to fragment, JFK?s head wound.
How do you know there was only one head wound?
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These ?other guys? were Secret Service agents.
Really? I think it would have been news to hospital corpsman Mills that he was a Secret Service agent.
But was crime scene evidence collection even within the purview of the Secret Service?
Reasonable people have theories. Unreasonable people have established truths in their heads that they cannot seriously question.
You mean like the idea that Oswald did it?
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It was, of course, impossible to determine that the two fragments came from the same bullet or from two different bullets. But two different bullets each leaving a fragment that stays in the limousine, while the other fragment leaves the limousine, is patently unlikely for the following reasons.
How exactly do you know that any part of any head shot bullet "left the limousine"?
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It should be noted that regardless of whether the fragments came from one bullet or two, they are devastating evidence against LHO.
Patently absurd. A fragment tells you nothing about who fired it.
"Ballistic experts Robert Frazier and Joseph Nicol examined the stretcher bullet and the two fragments recovered from the limousine and determined that they were fired from the rifle found on the sixth floor of the TSBD, to the exclusion of all other rifles in the world."
Yes, I know, because Frazier lined up the markings in his mind when they wouldn't line up under the microscope. But great. Now all you have to do is show that bullet found on an unrelated stretcher at Parkland Hospital and the two fragments allegedly recovered from the limousine were actually involved in the assassination.
That is unless someone stole Saint Oz's rifle from the garage and used it to assassinate JFK.
Says the guy who can't even demonstrate that this rifle was ever in the garage.
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Why would all of it need to be faked?
Classic LN strawman to divert from the reality that their "evidence", authentic or not, doesn't actually show that Oswald did it.
Wow, you have the evidence to support that claim of C2766 being in that garage?
No, of course he doesn't.
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Then cite your evidence. Why all the verbiage?
Verbiage is what they do when they don't actually have the solid evidence. Hence Bugliosi's 1648 pages. "If you can't dazzle them with brilliance, baffle them with bullsh*t".
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Patently absurd. A fragment tells you nothing about who fired it.
Yes, I know, because Frazier lined up the markings in his mind when they wouldn't line up under the microscope. But great. Now all you have to do is show that bullet found on an unrelated stretcher at Parkland Hospital and the two fragments allegedly recovered from the limousine were actually involved in the assassination.
Says the guy who can't even demonstrate that this rifle was ever in the garage.
The fragments don't tell us who fired the gun but they do tell us what gun they were fired from. In this case C2766, which was ordered, paid for and possessed by Saint Oz.
Of course it's possible that the fragments weren't 'involved in the assassination' but only if you believe that fragments from a bullet fired by Saint Oz's C2766 were somehow in the limo prior to the assassination or planted there afterwards.
It's also possible that the rifle Marina photographed Saint Oz posing with and the rifle she saw blanketed in the garage wasn't C2766.
Of course, something being possible doesn't mean it's likely or even a reasonable consideration.
The fragments are very conclusive proof.
LHO: GUILTY BEYOND A REASONABLE DOUBT
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In this case C2766, which was ordered,
According to unscientific handwriting "analysis" of two block letters on a photograph of a microfilm copy of a 2 inch order coupon.
paid for
According to unscientific handwriting "analysis" of a money order found in Virginia that shows no link whatsoever to any specific Klein's order.
and possessed by Saint Oz.
You got nothing there.
Of course it's possible that the fragments weren't 'involved in the assassination' but only if you believe that fragments from a bullet fired by Saint Oz's C2766 were somehow in the limo prior to the assassination or planted there afterwards.
Only if you believe that the "limo fragments" were ever in the limo. Too bad there is no documented chain of custody.
It's also possible that the rifle Marina photographed Saint Oz posing with and the rifle she saw blanketed in the garage wasn't C2766.
Of course, something being possible doesn't mean it's likely or even a reasonable consideration.
You can either prove it is or you cannot.
The fragments are very conclusive proof.
Of what exactly?
LHO: GUILTY BEYOND A REASONABLE DOUBT
LOL
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3 FRAGMENTS UNDER MRS CONNALLYS SEAT!!!????
There must been a FOURTH fragment to have hit curb near Tague. Where is that fragment?
Has there been an experiment that shows a MC 6.5 FMJ bullet will fragment into 4 aprox same size fragments after striking only a very small round portion of human skull on a tangent line.
To explain the radial fragmentation along the right front side as per the JFK lateral X ray, would reguire a fragment to have defleted inward, traverseing the right side of the brain, then exit at where the "V" notch is seen in the JFK autopsy photo.
If that is the case, then that fragment would have been on a tragectory line that should have hit the back side of Greer's seat and thus there should have been a hole in the back of his seat.
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More consistent with X rays and Autopsy photos is a the trajectory line from the corner SW 6th story window than from the SE window, agree?
Because JFKs head is turned about 45 degrees leftward and he is leaning leftward at time of Z313 head shot.
Therefore, a SW 6th story trajectory line matches closer to JFK X rays and Autopsy photo because:
The bullet would be in line to traverse longintudinallly across right side of the skull and have a reasonable probablity of having caused those radial fragmentation lines that converge to the FRONT right half of skull, which where the "V" notch is in the JFK autopsy photo. ("V" shaped wound above right eye)
(https://i.pinimg.com/originals/29/dc/f1/29dcf1fb67e8a6b67fe8eb411aaf5ba1.jpg)
(http://www.patspeer.com/_/rsrc/1268954164040/latxhsca-full.jpg)
The HSCA diagram cannot be correct for exit of the bullet because the fact that JFK skull is turned approx 45 degree leftward relative to the SE shot trajectory, thus any entry point that is right of this centerline and near top of skull, the bullet would, if continuing along same tragectory line, exited almost right above the right ear, thus not at a point above right eye socket, and thus no radial fragmentation lines likely caused at all.
The only possible explanation(if that entry point is high on the skull) to explain lateral fragmentation lines on the front half of right side skull, is that one of the bullet fragments deflected inwardly and traversed thru the right side of the brain, exiting at the "v" notch above the right eye socket:
However, if that were true, then why no holes in the back seat of Greers seat or any part of back side of the front seat?
just how many fragments are there anyway, because Ive was looking thru the WC exhibits again and I find CE 567 and CE 569 are listed as having been found in the FRONT of the Presidential limosine?
That would mean if 3 fragments are under Ms Connallys seat and 1 fragment caused the curb damage near Tague, and then CE 567 and CE 569 are 2 MORE fragments, found in front part of limo, so a total of 6 fragments???
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3 FRAGMENTS UNDER MRS CONNALLYS SEAT!!!????
There must been a FOURTH fragment to have hit curb near Tague. Where is that fragment?
Actually, the smear on the curb was probably not caused by a bullet but by a tire lead weight. It is too unlikely that a bullet would just happen to strike precisely on the corner of the curb. Not off by even a centimeter.
What happened to the fragment that nicked Mr. Tague?s cheek? It flew on and was never found. It would be unlikely to have been found. It was pretty small. Dealey Plaza, while small for a shooting range, is quite big enough to make it difficult to find such a fragment.
Has there been an experiment that shows a MC 6.5 FMJ bullet will fragment into 4 aprox same size fragments after striking only a very small round portion of human skull on a tangent line.
On a living head? No. But ballistic tests do show a WCC/MC bullet will fragment upon strike a skull at near muzzle velocity.
Questions:
Can you find a single ballistic expert who says otherwise?
Have you ever read a book by a ballistic expert?
To explain the radial fragmentation along the right front side as per the JFK lateral X ray, would reguire a fragment to have defleted inward, traverseing the right side of the brain, then exit at where the "V" notch is seen in the JFK autopsy photo.
If that is the case, then that fragment would have been on a tragectory line that should have hit the back side of Greer's seat and thus there should have been a hole in the back of his seat.
This is assuming a bullet that fragments would continue on a straight line. Real ballistic experts, like Larry Sturdivan, say that bullet fragments do not maintain a straight line and this has been demonstrated in photographs of bullet fragment paths through ballistic gel.
Question:
Can you find a single ballistic expert who says that bullet fragments continue through a human body in a straight line?
Until you find a ballistic expert who says this, extrapolating where a bullet or a fragment should end up is a waste of time. [/b]
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Patently absurd. A fragment tells you nothing about who fired it.
Yes, I know, because Frazier lined up the markings in his mind when they wouldn't line up under the microscope. But great. Now all you have to do is show that bullet found on an unrelated stretcher at Parkland Hospital and the two fragments allegedly recovered from the limousine were actually involved in the assassination.
Says the guy who can't even demonstrate that this rifle was ever in the garage.
A fragment tells you nothing about who fired it.
Unless the bullet was made from some really unusual and exotic metal ..... It's nearly impossible to identify ANY manufacturing characteristic or caliber of bullet fragment...... And impossible to identify the gun that fired the tiny fragment of a bullet.
In a telephone conversation with LBJ on 11/23/63 J.Edgar Hoover told LBJ..."We have what we call slivers, which are not very valuable in the identification."
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A fragment tells you nothing about who fired it.
False. Ballistic experts Robert Frazier and Joseph Nicol both studied the two fragments recovered from the limousine, CE-567 and CE-569, and concluded that based on the marks on them, both were fired from the rifle found on the sixth floor. Both fragments had enough marks on them to link them to this rifle to the exclusion of all other rifles in the world.
Some fragments are indeed to small to match to a rifle. But that is not true of all fragments.
Question:
What ballistic expert has stated that fragments can never be linked to a particular rifle based on the marks on them.
Unless the bullet was made from some really unusual and exotic metal ..... It's nearly impossible to identify ANY manufacturing characteristic or caliber of bullet fragment...... And impossible to identify the gun that fired the tiny fragment of a bullet.
Couldn?t any rifle of the proper type fire a bullet with a certain exotic metal composition? I assume you mean a mostly intact bullet was recovered, and a fragment was also recovered and the question came up ?Did the fragment come from that bullet?. I doubt any ballistic expert would say it did, to the exclusion of all other bullets in the world.
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False. Ballistic experts Robert Frazier and Joseph Nicol both studied the two fragments recovered from the limousine, CE-567 and CE-569, and concluded that based on the marks on them, both were fired from the rifle found on the sixth floor. Both fragments had enough marks on them to link them to this rifle to the exclusion of all other rifles in the world.
BS
Question:
What ballistic expert has stated that fragments can never be linked to a particular rifle based on the marks on them.
None, because it's BS.
Couldn?t any rifle of the proper type fire a bullet with a certain exotic metal composition? I assume you mean a mostly intact bullet was recovered, and a fragment was also recovered and the question came up ?Did the fragment come from that bullet?. I doubt any ballistic expert would say it did, to the exclusion of all other bullets in the world.
Correct, no ballistic expert would/could.
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False. Ballistic experts Robert Frazier and Joseph Nicol both studied the two fragments recovered from the limousine, CE-567 and CE-569, and concluded that based on the marks on them, both were fired from the rifle found on the sixth floor. Both fragments had enough marks on them to link them to this rifle to the exclusion of all other rifles in the world.
Some fragments are indeed to small to match to a rifle. But that is not true of all fragments.
Question:
What ballistic expert has stated that fragments can never be linked to a particular rifle based on the marks on them.
Couldn?t any rifle of the proper type fire a bullet with a certain exotic metal composition? I assume you mean a mostly intact bullet was recovered, and a fragment was also recovered and the question came up ?Did the fragment come from that bullet?. I doubt any ballistic expert would say it did, to the exclusion of all other bullets in the world.
Ballistic experts Robert Frazier and Joseph Nicol both studied the two fragments recovered from the limousine, CE-567 and CE-569, and concluded that based on the marks on them, both were fired from the rifle found on the sixth floor.
This is utter nonsense!!.....and only a gullible, ignoramus would believe it.
In a telephone conversation with LBJ on 11/23/63 J.Edgar Hoover told LBJ..."We have what we call slivers, which are not very valuable in the identification."
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I think the TV show would have benefited from a more careful study of Larry Sturdivan?s ?The JFK Myths?. In the book, Mr. Sturdivan explains that the effect of the material that is struck by a bullet on that bullet (does it deform, does it fragment) mostly depends on the density of the material.
This cannot be right. Mass per unit area, maybe. But not mass per unit volume (density). A 4 inch thick gold brick may deform a bullet but a thin gold foil certainly won't. Both have the same density.
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This cannot be right. Mass per unit area, maybe. But not mass per unit volume (density). A 4 inch thick gold brick may deform a bullet but a thin gold foil certainly won't. Both have the same density.
Could you bring a 4 inch thick gold brick to my house so we can perform the experiment?
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False. Ballistic experts Robert Frazier and Joseph Nicol both studied the two fragments recovered from the limousine, CE-567 and CE-569, and concluded that based on the marks on them, both were fired from the rifle found on the sixth floor. Both fragments had enough marks on them to link them to this rifle to the exclusion of all other rifles in the world.
What do you mean, "false"? How in the world does that tell you who fired it?
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What do you mean, "false"? How in the world does that tell you who fired it?
All we have to do is figure out who fired C2766 now.
Any ideas ?
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All we have to do is figure out who fired C2766 now.
Any ideas ?
You're the one who thinks you have it all figured out. You justify it.
You haven't even demonstrated that C2766 was actually fired that day.
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You're the one who thinks you have it all figured out. You justify it.
You haven't even demonstrated that C2766 was actually fired that day.
You haven't even demonstrated that C2766 was actually fired that day.
Not a single person reported the smell of gunpowder on the sixth floor... The cavern of boxes that the rifle was WELL HIDDEN in would have reeked of the smell if that rifle had been fired that day.....
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The one fragment of 6 which must be the Tague curb strike, is one hell of a trajectory zig zag imo The experiemt with the plastic dummy head shows fragment DOES hit Greer seat if continued on same downward trajectory from exiting front right temple of JFK.
3 fragments come to rest under Mrs Conally seat and 2 other fragments are found in the front part of limo. NONE went thru the front seat. ALL must have flown OVER the front seat. Then 3 of them hit the inner windshield and the other 2 hit the windshield frame?
How do the fragments that hit a windshield angled approx 45 degree on the inside, deflect 180 degree approx backward and yet dont hit Greer, dont go thru ANY PART of his seat?
How could those 3 fragments have gone AROUND Greer? They would had to have deflected leftward from striking the inner surface of the windsheild, then deflected off what, the front door panel?
The other 2 fragments that were found in the front part of the limo, (not sure exactly if they were on the front seat or the front floorboard), but nevertheless, how did they get there without going thru front seat or striking the right side of inner windsheidl or the front dashboard?
It does not seem to me very probable that those 2 fragment could have BOTH hit the same windsheidl frame,causing that dent, but even is so, HOW do they not bounce back to the back seat too, like the other 3 fragments that presumably struck the inner windsheild in front of Greer?
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You're the one who thinks you have it all figured out. You justify it.
You haven't even demonstrated that C2766 was actually fired that day.
The fragments in the limo that were fired from C2766 to the exclusion of all other rifles proves it.
So you better come up with a way they got there, counselor.
Basically you have 2 options. They were in the limo before the assassination or they were planted afterwards.
Choose one.
Otherwise, it's obvious C2766 was fired that day.
Now who do you think might have fired C2766 ?
SAINT OSWALD DEFENSE TEAM HAS SOME EXPLAINING TO DO
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You haven't even demonstrated that C2766 was actually fired that day.
Not a single person reported the smell of gunpowder on the sixth floor The cavern that the rifle was WELL HIDDEN in would have reeked of the smell if that rifle had been fired that day.....
At least one witness (Mrs. Cabell) noticed the smell of gunpowder residue as they passed by the TSBD. Why would gases exploding out of the muzzle sticking outside the building suddenly reverse direction and flow back into the building?
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At least one witness (Mrs. Cabell) noticed the smell of gunpowder residue as they passed by the TSBD. Why would gases exploding out of the muzzle sticking outside the building suddenly reverse direction and flow back into the building?
Andrew perhaps you should "bounce you ideas" off a critic ( your wife?) before you post.....cuz yer makin a damned fool of yourself!
Mrs Cabell was in a car a block away from the building when the shots were fired I was a very windy day.....
Take these two facts and tell me how Mrs Cabell could have smelled gunsmoke from the sixth floor of the TSBD....OH WAIT A MINUTE!...... Are you saying the shots were fired from someplace close to Mrs Cabell??
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Andrew perhaps you should "bounce you ideas" off a critic ( your wife?) before you post.....cuz yer makin a damned fool of yourself!
Mrs Cabell was in a car a block away from the building when the shots were fired I was a very windy day.....
Take these two facts and tell me how Mrs Cabell could have smelled gunsmoke from the sixth floor of the TSBD....OH WAIT A MINUTE!...... Are you saying the shots were fired from someplace close to Mrs Cabell??
Perhaps you should read her testimony to the WC before you post. Mrs. Cabell was the fourth car behind the President's limo, just behind the VP security car. Her car had already entered the intersection when she heard the first shot. So she was about 100 feet from the muzzle when gunpower gases were spewing into Dealey Plaza.
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Perhaps you should read her testimony to the WC before you post. Mrs. Cabell was the fourth car behind the President's limo, just behind the VP security car. Her car had already entered the intersection when she heard the first shot. So she was about 100 feet from the muzzle when gunpower gases were spewing into Dealey Plaza.
So you also accept what she said about the motorcade stopping dead still, Andrew?
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Perhaps you should read her testimony to the WC before you post. Mrs. Cabell was the fourth car behind the President's limo, just behind the VP security car. Her car had already entered the intersection when she heard the first shot. So she was about 100 feet from the muzzle when gunpower gases were spewing into Dealey Plaza.
Her car had already entered the intersection when she heard the first shot.
Altgen's #6 shows VP LBJ's car in that position.....Was Mrs Cabell riding in LBJ's car?
Do you really believe that anybody riding in a car on Houston street could have smelled gun smoke if a rifle had been fired over sixth feet above the street on a windy day??......
I do hope you will answer in the affirmative and that you believe that......
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The fragments in the limo that were fired from C2766 to the exclusion of all other rifles proves it.
So you better come up with a way they got there, counselor.
Basically you have 2 options. They were in the limo before the assassination or they were planted afterwards.
Choose one.
Oh there are other options. One of which is that CE567 and CE569 were never in the limo. And given that there is nothing other than hearsay for how they got from the limo into Robert Frazier's hands, that can't be excluded.
But there is just as much evidence for any of these options as there is for the option that you prefer. That is to say none.
Now who do you think might have fired C2766 ?
I don't know. I actually base what I believe on evidence, not faith. How about you?
SAINT OSWALD DEFENSE TEAM HAS SOME EXPLAINING TO DO
Not nearly as much explaining as the prosecution team has to do.
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So you're choosing the 'planted' option.
I knew you would.
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So you're choosing the 'planted' option.
I knew you would.
So you don't actually have any evidence that C2766 was fired that day.
I knew you didn't.
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So you also accept what she said about the motorcade stopping dead still, Andrew?
Her statement about smelling gunpowder is independent of her observation that the motorcade stopped. At least three others reported smelling gunpowder after the shooting. Sen. Yarborough, Tom Dillard, and Virgie Rachley.
Dillard was familiar with rifles and said this (6H165):
Mr. DILLARD. ...
I might add that I very definitely smelled gun powder when the car moved up at the corner.
Mr. BALL. You did?
Mr. DILLARD. I very definitely smelled it.
Mr. BALL. By that you mean when you moved up to the corner of Elm and Houston ?
Mr. DILLARD. Yes: now, there developed a very brisk north wind.
Mr. BALL. That was in front of the Texas School-Book Depository?
Mr. DILLARD. Yes, it?s rather close-the corner is rather close. I mentioned it, I believe, that it was rather surprising to me.
Virgie Rachley's FBI statement given Nov. 24/63 (CD5, p. 67) states:
"She recalled that after the second shot she smelled gunsmoke but did not know where it was coming from."
Yarborough was interviewed by the Houston Post and attributed this quote to him in a Nov 22/63 story:
"A few instants after the shots, Yarborough said, the President's car spurted ahead at a very high rate of speed, with a Secret Service agent lying on the back of it, and beating his fist on the back of the car, as if in great despair and anger. Yarborough said he could smell gunpowder in the area of the shooting. 'I could smell powder all the way into the hospital,' he said."
Whether it was actually detectable as a smell all the way to Parkland is a little more difficult to accept. It may have been a brain memory that was seared into Yarborough's consciousness at that moment.
There is no reason to believe that gunpowder gases propelled at great speed from the muzzle sticking outside the window would have filled the inside of the 6th Floor of the TSBD. It would have spread out and down onto Dealey Plaza. So it does not surprise me at all that gunpowder smell was detectable around the TSBD.
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Her statement about smelling gunpowder is independent of her observation that the motorcade stopped. At least three others reported smelling gunpowder after the shooting. Sen. Yarborough, Tom Dillard, and Virgie Rachley.
Dillard was familiar with rifles and said this (6H165):
Mr. DILLARD. ...
I might add that I very definitely smelled gun powder when the car moved up at the corner.
Mr. BALL. You did?
Mr. DILLARD. I very definitely smelled it.
Mr. BALL. By that you mean when you moved up to the corner of Elm and Houston ?
Mr. DILLARD. Yes: now, there developed a very brisk north wind.
Mr. BALL. That was in front of the Texas School-Book Depository?
Mr. DILLARD. Yes, it?s rather close-the corner is rather close. I mentioned it, I believe, that it was rather surprising to me.
Virgie Rachley's FBI statement given Nov. 24/63 (CD5, p. 67) states:
"She recalled that after the second shot she smelled gunsmoke but did not know where it was coming from."
Yarborough was interviewed by the Houston Post and attributed this quote to him in a Nov 22/63 story:
"A few instants after the shots, Yarborough said, the President's car spurted ahead at a very high rate of speed, with a Secret Service agent lying on the back of it, and beating his fist on the back of the car, as if in great despair and anger. Yarborough said he could smell gunpowder in the area of the shooting. 'I could smell powder all the way into the hospital,' he said."
Whether it was actually detectable as a smell all the way to Parkland is a little more difficult to accept. It may have been a brain memory that was seared into Yarborough's consciousness at that moment.
There is no reason to believe that gunpowder gases propelled at great speed from the muzzle sticking outside the window would have filled the inside of the 6th Floor of the TSBD. It would have spread out and down onto Dealey Plaza. So it does not surprise me at all that gunpowder smell was detectable around the TSBD.
Mr. DILLARD. Yes, it?s rather close-the corner is rather close. I mentioned it, I believe, that it was rather surprising to me.[/b]
IOW.....Dilliard didn't believe that he could have smelled gunpowder if the shots had been fired from sixty feet above on a windy day.... Mr Dillard was right ......The gunpowder smell didn't emanate from a gun on the sixth floor.
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Mr. DILLARD. Yes, it?s rather close-the corner is rather close. I mentioned it, I believe, that it was rather surprising to me.[/b]
IOW.....Dilliard didn't believe that he could have smelled gunpowder if the shots had been fired from sixty feet above on a windy day.... Mr Dillard was right ......The gunpowder smell didn't emanate from a gun on the sixth floor.
He may have been surprised that the gunpowder gases from the muzzle travelled all the way from the sixth floor to his nose, a distance of about 55-60 feet. That does not mean they didn't emanate from the sixth floor window where Bob Jackson said he had seen the gun.
Those muzzle gases are escaping initially at 2000 feet per second from the muzzle. Even if the speed is rapidly attenuated, they are going to cover a lot of distance in even one second. Lets' suppose their velocity is fully attenuated in 1 second, so the gases go from 2000 fps to 0 fps in 1 second. That is an average speed of 1000 feet per second. So the distance covered in 1 second is 1000 feet. Those gases would disperse over a large volume. With a SE wind blowing the gases back toward the TSBD, it is no wonder people could smell it around the TSBD several seconds after the shots ended.
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With a SE wind blowing the gases back toward the TSBD, it is no wonder people could smell it around the TSBD several seconds after the shots ended.
Where did you get the idea that wind blowing toward the SE would go back toward the TSBD?
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So you don't actually have any evidence that C2766 was fired that day.
I knew you didn't.
Hold on there, Sparky.
Give the forum some details of your theory that the frags were planted and/or switched.
So far, all we have is your contention that the chain of custody doesn't measure up.
Did the FBI/SS conspirators have some fragments from a bullet fired by C2766 laying around and think 'let's plant/substitute them into the evidence' ?
Kind of a leap to go from 'the chain of custody isn't satisfactory' to 'the fragments were planted or substituted'.
You have any evidence the fragments in evidence were planted or switched or do you just have a need to play bald Perry Mason defending Saint Oz the Patsy ?
Quit blowing smoke and tell the forum how and when and by whom the planting/switching was done.
WHO KNEW WHACKING THE KOOKS AND THE SAINT OZ DEFENSE TEAM WITH A CLUE BAT COULD BE SUCH FUN ?
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Where did you get the idea that wind blowing toward the SE would go back toward the TSBD?
A SE wind is one coming from the soutb-east.
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All witnesses who said they smelled gun smoke were near the limo ( relative to the 6th floor window) at the time.
I believe it would have been impossible for anybody at street level to have smelled gun smoke.....( from a gun fired from the TSBD window) .
I believe you are wrong. My belief is based on actual evidence as well aa a rational explanation based on the direction an speed speed of the gunpowder gases. What is yours based on?
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I believe you are wrong. My belief is based on actual evidence as well aa a rational explanation based on the direction an speed speed of the gunpowder gases. What is yours based on?
Experience and commonsense...
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Experience and commonsense...
I prefer evidence.
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I prefer evidence.
No....You prefer fantasies .... cuz it makes you feel comfortable and secure... A nasty little commie, and arch villain did it and that something you can accept.
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Yarborough was interviewed by the Houston Post and attributed this quote to him in a Nov 22/63 story:
"A few instants after the shots, Yarborough said, the President's car spurted ahead at a very high rate of speed, with a Secret Service agent lying on the back of it, and beating his fist on the back of the car, as if in great despair and anger. Yarborough said he could smell gunpowder in the area of the shooting. 'I could smell powder all the way into the hospital,' he said."
The ?smell of gunpowder? witnesses have to be considered the most unreliable of witnesses. The firing took place in the outdoors, with consist winds of 10 to 15 mph. One cannot expect anyone to smell gunpower, even if they were standing just downwind of someone firing a weapon, unless, perhaps, they were a Louisiana bloodhound.
Under some circumstances, gunpowder can be smelled. When shots are fired indoors, at an indoor firing range. Or outside, on a still day, when one is standing near the weapon being fired.
Some of the witnesses had been around gunfire before. And had smelled gunfire, under ideal conditions, outside, on a still day with little or no wind, while very near the person who had fired a gun. So, when they heard the shots on November 22, expected to smell the gun smoke. And did smell the gun smoke, in their minds.
Yarborough?s account is not to be believed, unless one thinks there was a constant gun battle all the way to the Parkland hospital several miles away over the course of several minutes.
And if Yarborough could smell the gun smoke from several miles away at the Parkland hospital, then I suppose one could smell the sixth floor from any location in Dealey Plaza. Although, of course, neither was possible.
With hundreds of witnesses at Dealey Plaza, we should expect several mistaken witnesses reporting the smell of gun smoke. It would be surprising if we had none. And a clue that this is so is that the witnesses who smelled gun smoke were far apart from each other, not concentrated at one spot, if there was a shot from somewhere that somehow caused gun smoke to be concentrated in one small area where it would be possible to smell gun smoke that was not too diluted.
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Here is more information about the smelling of gunpowder.
http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/smell.htm
Judging from the wide spread of the ?smell of gunpowder? witnesses, it seems obvious that one cannot use them to locate the source of the shots.
Question:
Can anyone quote some sort of gun expert, who states that gun smoke can be smelled, outdoors, even with the wind blowing 10 to 15 mph, as a result of less than a dozen rifle shots?
And can do so from 50 or more yards away if the wind is blowing in a favorable direction.
We just need one quote. Something. Anything.
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Here is more information about the smelling of gunpowder.
http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/smell.htm
Judging from the wide spread of the ?smell of gunpowder? witnesses, it seems obvious that one cannot use them to locate the source of the shots.
Question:
Can anyone quote some sort of gun expert, who states that gun smoke can be smelled, outdoors, even with the wind blowing 10 to 15 mph, as a result of less than a dozen rifle shots?
And can do so from 50 or more yards away if the wind is blowing in a favorable direction.
We just need one quote. Something. Anything.
According to a car dude online, gasoline can smell like gunpowder at times and said that the heavy limo could have produced the smell by being suddenly gunned into a higher speed. I didn't pursue that because I couldn't find anything else online supporting that notion. I might have that particular article in my files. Maybe look at the smells produced by motorcycles as well. And I doubt if everybody has exactly the same perception of odors.
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According to a car dude online, gasoline can smell like gunpowder at times and said that the heavy limo could have produced the smell by being suddenly gunned into a higher speed. I didn't pursue that because I couldn't find anything else online supporting that notion. I might have that particular article in my files. Maybe look at the smells produced by motorcycles as well. And I doubt if everybody has exactly the same perception of odors.
Yes, and I would be interested in anyone smelling gunpowder, or gasoline fumes that smell like gunpowder, or just plain old gasoline fumes, outside while the wind is blowing at 10 to 15 mph.
No counting anyone standing in an oil refinery or in the midst of an artillery battalion.
I suppose detecting gasoline fumes might be possible, even with the wind, considering a lot more gasoline fumes would have been generated than gunpowder fumes, even if there were ten shooters.
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A SE wind is one coming from the soutb-east.
Ok, where did the get the idea that a wind coming from the southeast would blow towards the TSBD?
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Hold on there, Sparky.
Give the forum some details of your theory that the frags were planted and/or switched.
So far, all we have is your contention that the chain of custody doesn't measure up.
Did the FBI/SS conspirators have some fragments from a bullet fired by C2766 laying around and think 'let's plant/substitute them into the evidence' ?
Kind of a leap to go from 'the chain of custody isn't satisfactory' to 'the fragments were planted or substituted'.
You have any evidence the fragments in evidence were planted or switched or do you just have a need to play bald Perry Mason defending Saint Oz the Patsy ?
Quit blowing smoke and tell the forum how and when and by whom the planting/switching was done.
WHO KNEW WHACKING THE KOOKS AND THE SAINT OZ DEFENSE TEAM WITH A CLUE BAT COULD BE SUCH FUN ?
Yawn....
Howard's usual strawman/shift the burden/insult schtick.
Can you prove the C2766 rifle was fired that day or not?
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Ok, where did the get the idea that a wind coming from the southeast would blow towards the TSBD?
Sorry, I should have said SW. The wind was coming from the south-west. So Oswald firing in the south-west direction from the south east corner of the TSBD was firing into the wind.
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Sorry, I should have said SW. The wind was coming from the south-west. So Oswald firing in the south-west direction from the south east corner of the TSBD was firing into the wind.
So now that you've got the wind direction correct.... Perhaps you can work on getting the basic fact correct.
Lee Oswald did not fire a rifle from that SE corner window....
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Sorry, I should have said SW. The wind was coming from the south-west. So Oswald firing in the south-west direction from the south east corner of the TSBD was firing into the wind.
A person firing at the motorcade from that window would be shooting closer to south than to southwest. The building doesn't face due south.
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A person firing at the motorcade from that window would be shooting closer to south than to southwest. The building doesn't face due south.
Well, the wind was generally in the opposite direction to whatever direction a line from the SN to JFK was:
(http://www.dufourlaw.com/JFK/Dealey_Plaza_GMaps_wind_direction.jpg)
(http://www.dufourlaw.com/JFK/Dealey_Plaza_wind.bmp)
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Well, the wind was generally in the opposite direction to whatever direction a line from the SN to JFK was:
What is your "wind direction" arrow based on?
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What is your "wind direction" arrow based on?
The wind is not really strong but there are gusts. These gusts can be seen here:
1. Muchmore film shows wind blowing clothing:
(http://www.dufourlaw.com/JFK/Muchmore_wind.jpg)
(http://www.dufourlaw.com/JFK/Wind_DPlaza.jpg)
2. Flags on President's limo catch gusts from time to time and point straight back.
3. Blue scarf on lady standing on north side of Elm seen just to left (east) of Stemmons sign in zfilm appears to keep moving to left side.
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The wind is not really strong but there are gusts. These gusts can be seen here:
1. Muchmore film shows wind blowing clothing:
2. Flags on President's limo catch gusts from time to time and point straight back.
3. Blue scarf on lady standing on north side of Elm seen just to left (east) of Stemmons sign in zfilm appears to keep moving to left side.
If you just mean roughly in that general direction, then I'm with you. Elm is not straight. "Towards the TSBD" is a bit of a stretch unless you just mean in very rough terms.
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Surely the wind is blowing towards the TSBD, no matter which direction it is coming from. :D
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Well, the wind was generally in the opposite direction to whatever direction a line from the SN to JFK was:
(http://www.dufourlaw.com/JFK/Dealey_Plaza_GMaps_wind_direction.jpg)
(http://www.dufourlaw.com/JFK/Dealey_Plaza_wind.bmp)
Hey Andrew that is a great image to me for the "in perspective" for the trajectory from the SN thing.
I've got one of my trajectory theory tests you can do quite interestingly with it.
Oh y'all do want to hear it, well ok it goes like this -
You see JFK's body is 100% square with the square of the Limo. The Limo is 100% square with the square of the road.
SO you can take a small thin bit of carboard or whatever, place it on your computer screen square with the road about
where the shots were, the yellow line will intersect it and PRESTO. ;) 8) Walk: :D
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Hey Andrew that is a great image to me for the "in perspective" for the trajectory from the SN thing.
I've got one of my trajectory theory tests you can do quite interestingly with it.
Oh y'all do want to hear it, well ok it goes like this -
You see JFK's body is 100% square with the square of the Limo. The Limo is 100% square with the square of the road.
SO you can take a small thin bit of carboard or whatever, place it on your computer screen square with the road about
where the shots were, the yellow line will intersect it and PRESTO. ;) 8) Walk: :D
Notice that the yellow line from the SE corner of the TSBD passes right through a tree......There were no shots fired from that SE corner window!!
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The fragments allegedly found in the limousine were not seen after the assassination. They weren't allegedly found until the limousine was back in Washington, D.C.
Since neither the SS or FBI had jurisdiction for the murder at that time there isn't a court of law that would admit these fragments into evidence IF it was legitimate.
Obviously the only way the case could be tried was through a trial of the accused.... Thus they knew they had to eliminate the accused.
LBJ had successfully used that tactic and had no qualms about eliminating a mere pissant.....
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The fragments allegedly found in the limousine were not seen after the assassination. They weren't allegedly found until the limousine was back in Washington, D.C.
Since neither the SS or FBI had jurisdiction for the murder at that time there isn't a court of law that would admit these fragments into evidence IF it was legitimate.
These fragments were allegedly found by a Secret Service deputy chief and a Navy corpsman, not trained crime scene investigators, who allegedly either gave them to Secret Service chief Floyd Boring or FBI agent Orrin Bartlett, who allegedly then gave them to FBI agent Robert Frazier. The problem is that the only documentation for any of these transfers of possession is that Frazier scrawled this down on a laboratory worksheet that was typed up 2-3 days later:
(http://iacoletti.org/jfk/frazier-fragments.png)