JFK Assassination Forum
JFK Assassination Discussion & Debate => JFK Assassination Discussion & Debate => Topic started by: Matt Grantham on May 04, 2018, 10:39:49 PM
-
-
To cut to the chase Oswald tried to call a former counter intelligence agent John W Hurt Who lived very close to Nags Head NC which was purportedly a training center for intelligence agents wanting to pretend to defect to Russia as US intelligence agents
http://oswaldinthedoorway.blogspot.com/2017/05/a-very-important-video-has-been-brought.html
Did I mention the Minox spy camera found on Oswald at the time of his arrest
-
To cut to the chase Oswald tried to call a former counter intelligence agent John W Hurt
Ah yes, now I understand where you're coming from...do you do all your research on UTUBE Mat? Is your 'extensive' knowledge of the assassination built on watching UTUBE vids?
-
Ah yes, now I understand where you're coming from...do you do all your research on UTUBE Mat? Is your 'extensive' knowledge of the assassination built on watching UTUBE vids?
I don't claim to have extensive knowledge so maybe you could address the story and not an ad hominem Should I just live in darkness instead of looking for information on sources available to me Are you suggesting everything on YouTube is useless? It would seem like a good forum for experts to come forward and present evidence of various sorts I am wrongheaded in some way?
-
I don't claim to have extensive knowledge so maybe you could address the story and not an ad hominem Should I just live in darkness instead of looking for information on sources available to me Are you suggesting everything on YouTube is useless It would seem like a good forum for experts to come forward and present evidence of various sorts I am wrongheaded in some way?
I think I kinda did, Matt. Get your info from wherever you please. Enjoy.
-
Guys named Grover I find trustworthy Did Fritz not say he wasn't sure whether there was a phone call or not? No one on the record seems to have acknowledged whether the call even happened Oh that lovely wiggle room
-
Matt ----- This is very interesting and one hell of an eye opening situation . I'm listening to a you tube segment called----Lee Harvey Oswald's final phone call before his assassination. It is 2hrs. & 11 mins. long and it is very good .
Thanks Matt
-
Matt ----- This is very interesting and one hell of an eye opening situation . I'm listening to a you tube segment called----Lee Harvey Oswald's final phone call before his assassination. It is 2hrs. & 11 mins. long and it is very good .
Thanks Matt
Thanks Mike The Nags Head stuff potentially ties a lot of things together
-
Guys named Grover I find trustworthy Did Fritz not say he wasn't sure whether there was a phone call or not? No one on the record seems to have acknowledged whether the call even happened Oh that lovely wiggle room
Matt,
At first thought, I would write it off as just John Hurt being drunk that Saturday night and calling Oswald that evening at the Dallas city jail to tell him off. However, he certainly would not get through, and why leave his name and 2 phone numbers? The other John Hurt in that NC area code was an auto mechanic in his 20's that was written on the operator's card. If Oswald was making a phone call, there is no doubt the police would eavesdrop on the call. The operator denies she went in the other operator's trash can later and got the info off a slip of paper. She states she was also on the line and listened in to Oswald's request.
Also, I read Abraham Bolden's book. He was a secret service agent working in the Chicago office. He got a teletype message to check out whether they had any files on a John Hurt or John Hurd on Sunday night, November 24th. There was also no secret Oswald tried to call Mr. Abt, an ACLU lawyer, but never got through at Abt was out-of-town that weekend.
Oswald could very well have tried to call Hurt for whatever reason, was denied access by law enforcement and Hurt never even knew about it until much later. Oswald was then DOA. End of problem!
BB
-
The Raleigh/Hurt Phone Connection
http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/Raleigh.htm
-
Rob----- Thanks for putting your long posting on here. The detail you always have together on postings are so good . I can't believe I missed this on your first regular go around on these phone calls that were not put through. It makes you wonder what they might have been doing with his other request .
Thanks again , Rob
-
The Raleigh/Hurt Phone Connection
http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/Raleigh.htm
"If Lee Oswald was working for some intelligence service, it might make sense that he might try to contact it for help or instructions after he was arrested by the Dallas cops.
Or course, this notion is questionable in a lot of ways. If Oswald really was working for some intelligence service, it would be stupid for him to ?blow his cover? by trying to contact his handlers. And if he had inferred that he had been manipulated and made a ?patsy,? it would have made no sense to call the people who had manipulated and patisfied him to complain."
Tim, they hate it when they're bombarded with logic and common sense.
-
The Raleigh/Hurt Phone Connection
http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/Raleigh.htm
For me an account by the Wife of Hurt after he died is less significant than the statement of Ms Treon? Are we to assume she just blatantly lied about the entire story because of statement of a women whose Husband likely did not like the attention? There is no middle ground that she had witnessed nothing Why don't we instead go with both versions and just assume that was Hurt's way of confessing to the whole thing when he said he called Oswald at the jail
The reciept from the DPD is exactly what Treo describes and does not indicate anything but an outgoing call
-
"If Lee Oswald was working for some intelligence service, it might make sense that he might try to contact it for help or instructions after he was arrested by the Dallas cops.
Or course, this notion is questionable in a lot of ways. If Oswald really was working for some intelligence service, it would be stupid for him to ?blow his cover? by trying to contact his handlers. And if he had inferred that he had been manipulated and made a ?patsy,? it would have made no sense to call the people who had manipulated and patisfied him to complain."
Tim, they hate it when they're bombarded with logic and common sense.
Proctor addresses this question with Vincent Marchetti who explains Oswald, and agents of his type would be given a contact, which was called a 'cut out' instead of contacting his direct handlers to call So Hurt would fit that bill
-
Proctor addresses this question with Vincent Marchetti who explains Oswald, and agents of his type would be given a contact, which was called a 'cut out' instead of contacting his direct handlers to call So Hurt would fit that bill
How does Hurt "fit that bill"?
-
How does Hurt "fit that bill"?
Someone not known as an agent, but still could be very well involved enough
-
For me an account by the Wife of Hurt after he died is less significant than the statement of Ms Treon? Are we to assume she just blatantly lied about the entire story because of statement of a women whose Husband likely did not like the attention? There is no middle ground that she had witnessed nothing Why don't we instead go with both versions and just assume that was Hurt's way of confessing to the whole thing when he said he called Oswald at the jail
It's not just an account by his wife. It's an account by Hurt himself.
The reciept from the DPD is exactly what Treo describes and does not indicate anything but an outgoing call
Where can one view that receipt?
-
It's not just an account by his wife. It's an account by Hurt himself.
Where can one view that receipt?
Tell me when Hurt first stated he called the Oswald at the jail please?
https://www.indyweek.com/indyweek/jfk-oswald-and-the-raleigh-connection/Content?oid=3192079
-
Tell me when Hurt first stated he called the Oswald at the jail please?
https://www.indyweek.com/indyweek/jfk-oswald-and-the-raleigh-connection/Content?oid=3192079
According to David Lifton, it was around 1970.
http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/images/lifton_hunt.gif
Lifton believes the slip to be suspect. It was allegedly retrieved from the jail trash by someone to be kept as a souvenir.
-
According to David Lifton, it was around 1970.
http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/images/lifton_hunt.gif
Lifton believes the slip to be suspect. It was allegedly retrieved from the jail trash by someone to be kept as a souvenir.
So the story by Hurts Wife that he said it before his death is incorrect? Even if you are correct about the note how does any of this cast doubt on Ms Treon's statements?
-
So the story by Hurts Wife that he said it before his death is incorrect? According to Treon she copied it out of a piece of paper in the trash Even if you are correct about the note how does any of this cast doubt on Ms Treon's statements?
-
So the story by Hurts Wife that he said it before his death is incorrect?
1970 was before his death.
Even if you are correct about the note how does any of this cast doubt on Ms Treon's statements?
Who is/was Ms Treon and what were her statements?
-
1970 was before his death.
Who is/was Ms Treon and what were her statements?
For some reason Grover Proctor's site is now down, after being up all day I assume you had nothing to do with that? You can hear Proctor explain it at the early part of the Youtube video whose link I provided on my original post here In the meantime here is a partial summary of her story
http://www.whokilledjfk.net/raliegh_call.htm
-
For some reason Grover Proctor's site is now down, after being up all day I assume you had nothing to do with that? You can hear Proctor explain it at the early part of the Youtube video whose link I provided on my original post here In the meantime here is a partial summary of her story
http://www.whokilledjfk.net/raliegh_call.htm
Is it really her story though?
"Mrs. Alveeta A. Treon, made a statement concerning the
events of that night to assassination researcher and attorney Bernard
Fensterwald some five years after the assassination, but then refused to
sign it on advice from her lawyer, according to Fensterwald."
-
Is it really her story though?
"Mrs. Alveeta A. Treon, made a statement concerning the
events of that night to assassination researcher and attorney Bernard
Fensterwald some five years after the assassination, but then refused to
sign it on advice from her lawyer, according to Fensterwald."
I am not sure what you are referring to exactly Why did she need to sign anything? For what reason?
Here is an interview between Proctor and Hurt
Excerpts of Interview with John David Hurt
PROCTOR:
Do you know any reason why Oswald would have tried to call you?
HURT:
I do not. I never heard of the man before President Kennedy's death. I was a
great Kennedyphile, and I would have been more inclined to kill him than
anything else.
PROCTOR:
Oswald, you mean.
HURT:
Yes
PROCTOR:
Did you place a call that day to the Dallas jail?
HURT:
No, I did not, and he didn't place a call to me either, I don't know how I
ever got [unintelligible].
PROCTOR:
Do you have any explanation as to why your name ...
HURT:
None whatever.
PROCTOR:
Do you have the telephone number 833-1253 (the second number on the slip) in
any of your business associations?
HURT:
No.
PROCTOR:
Did you in 1963?
HURT:
No, I did not.
PROCTOR:
That was the other number listed on the telephone slip beside your name.
HURT:
I don't know. My number has been the same for, oh, I'd say forty years.
PROCTOR:
In speaking with another investigator that called you about six years ago,
you indicated at that time that during World War II you were in the
Counterintelligence Division. Is that correct?
HURT:
That's correct.
PROCTOR:
You left that, and went into investigative work after the war.
HURT:
I was in insurance claims adjusting work, and I worked for a year for the
state as a [unintelligible].
PROCTOR:
Were you ever involved as an agent in the Defense Department's Industrial
Security Command?
HURT:
No, I was not.
PROCTOR:
So, once again, you have no knowledge of any call made from your number or
to your number that day?
HURT:
No knowledge whatsover.
-
I am not sure what you are referring to exactly Why did she need to sign anything? For what reason?
Why was she asked to sign it and why did she refuse?
Here is an interview between Proctor and Hurt
Excerpts of Interview with John David Hurt
PROCTOR:
Do you know any reason why Oswald would have tried to call you?
HURT:
I do not. I never heard of the man before President Kennedy's death. I was a
great Kennedyphile, and I would have been more inclined to kill him than
anything else.
PROCTOR:
Oswald, you mean.
HURT:
Yes
PROCTOR:
Did you place a call that day to the Dallas jail?
HURT:
No, I did not, and he didn't place a call to me either, I don't know how I
ever got [unintelligible].
PROCTOR:
Do you have any explanation as to why your name ...
HURT:
None whatever.
PROCTOR:
Do you have the telephone number 833-1253 (the second number on the slip) in
any of your business associations?
HURT:
No.
PROCTOR:
Did you in 1963?
HURT:
No, I did not.
PROCTOR:
That was the other number listed on the telephone slip beside your name.
HURT:
I don't know. My number has been the same for, oh, I'd say forty years.
PROCTOR:
In speaking with another investigator that called you about six years ago,
you indicated at that time that during World War II you were in the
Counterintelligence Division. Is that correct?
HURT:
That's correct.
PROCTOR:
You left that, and went into investigative work after the war.
HURT:
I was in insurance claims adjusting work, and I worked for a year for the
state as a [unintelligible].
PROCTOR:
Were you ever involved as an agent in the Defense Department's Industrial
Security Command?
HURT:
No, I was not.
PROCTOR:
So, once again, you have no knowledge of any call made from your number or
to your number that day?
HURT:
No knowledge whatsover.
-
Why was she asked to sign it and why did she refuse?
I asked you what it was that she was signing
-
I asked you what it was that she was signing
From the link that you provided:
http://www.whokilledjfk.net/raliegh_call.htm
"One of the ladies, Mrs. Alveeta A. Treon, made a statement concerning the
events of that night to assassination researcher and attorney Bernard
Fensterwald some five years after the assassination, but then refused to
sign it on advice from her lawyer, according to Fensterwald.
-
From the link that you provided:
http://www.whokilledjfk.net/raliegh_call.htm
"One of the ladies, Mrs. Alveeta A. Treon, made a statement concerning the
events of that night to assassination researcher and attorney Bernard
Fensterwald some five years after the assassination, but then refused to
sign it on advice from her lawyer, according to Fensterwald.
The Affidavit and Exhibit A. At some point in early 1968, someone with much (but, as it turned out, somewhat flawed) information about Mrs. Treon's testimony concerning the Raleigh Call, prepared a statement in proper affidavit form ("Mrs. Alveeta A. Treon, of lawful age, being first duly sworn, deposes and says as follows...." etc.). Attached to it was a copy of her LD call slip, marked "Exhibit A."
Who would have done this, and more to the point, who would have had sufficient legal standing and knowledge to write it in correct form? Sheriff Owen immediately comes to mind, and this is bolstered by the fact that the document is written in and for Greene County, Missouri. However, Sheriff Owen told the HSCA that "he did not recall helping her prepare any kind of affidavit about the information." (Below is an excerpt of the affidavit, photocopied from the actual carbon copy made at the time the affidavit was originally typed.)
Another possibility, though perhaps less likely, is that the FBI may have prepared the affidavit after their interview with Mrs. Treon. They did, after all, take away with them her LD slip, which would become Exhibit A. But would they have prepared an affidavit headed "State of Missouri / County of Greene"?
Mrs. Treon never saw this document until about 10 years after her interview with the FBI, and she certainly never signed it (therefore it was never notarized). When attorney Bernard Fensterwald first sent me a copy of the affidavit, he told me that he assumed Mrs. Treon refused to sign it on advice from her lawyer, though this does not appear to have been the case.
It became clear that Mrs. Treon had not seen the contents of "her" affidavit when HSCA Special Counsel Surell Brady asked her about some of the things contained in it. Brady therefore sent Mrs. Treon a copy of the document, and asked her to respond to two sets of questions concerning it: "(1) Did you give the information in the affidavit? If so, when and to whom? Was the affidavit ever signed by you and notarized? (2) Is the information contained in the affidavit correct and accurate? If not, please indicate on the affidavit itself any inaccuracies or misstatements."
As it turned out, it would be a trash can that would provide Mrs. Treon with her biggest problem with what appeared in the document. Here is how the original, unedited version of the affidavit (written as if in first person by Mrs. Treon) describes the series of events after Mrs. Swinney failed to place Oswald's call:
A few moments later, Mrs. Swinney tore the page off her notation pad and threw it in the waste paper basket. I think the time of the Oswald call would be about 10:45 p.m. and Mrs. Swinney left at around 11:00 p.m. or just after.
When she walked out of the room, I got up from my position, walked to the waste paper basket and took the piece of paper out. It was just an unofficial piece of paper from a pad with details of the call. This is normal procedure. In a long distance call, an operator will scribble out details and only if the call is completed will she transfer this to an official ticket.
I immediately noted all the details made by Mrs. Swinney and made out a long distance call ticket. I threw this scrap of paper back into the waste paper basket. At the time I didn't even think about keeping it. All I wanted was a souvenir.
Upon reading the document, Mrs. Treon was particularly upset with the above "trash diving" characterization. It is good that she had the opportunity to set the record straight, because that section led some who read it to believe it was a very weak link in her story.
When all that was available to researchers was this unrevised, unedited, inaccurate copy of the affidavit (and its Exhibit A, the LD call slip), the "second hand" depiction of Mrs. Treon's going through the trash can for information about the call caused some to doubt that the call ever existed. In 1970, researcher Paul Hoch, among the first to comment on the Raleigh Call, used the trash can incident to conclude that an inebriated John David Hurt must have attempted to place a crank call into the jail to Oswald and that Mrs. Treon "picked up the wrong piece of paper ? the one relating to Hurt's attempted call to Oswald ? and recorded it as if it were the call from Oswald (probably to attorney Abt) which she had just witnessed." (See below for more on Hoch's theory.)
Mrs. Treon, however, unequivocally stated that whoever wrote up the affidavit document got that part of it very wrong. In the corrected copy of the affidavit that she returned to the HSCA, she wrote this about what Mrs. Swinney did with the LD slip she had written out: "I did not say this. I do not know what Mrs. Swinney did with her L.D. ticket."
And concerning the assertion that she relied on waste paper from a trash can for her information, she wrote this: "I did not say all this. I was asked if I knew what Mrs. Swinney did with her ticket. I said I had no idea, that tickets on L.D. calls not completed were not normally kept but I did not know what she did with it. I heard Oswald place the call ? give his name etc. as I was on the line." Mrs. Treon did suggest, though, that had the FBI asked her what Mrs. Swinney did with her LD call slip, it would have been logical for her to tell them that she probably threw it away, though she does not know that for certain.
-
Just to simplify this story It appears no one who prepared the affidavit in question, but when she was asked if she would sign Ms Treon simply pointed out that the information about the trash was incorrect Sounds like a ploy by someone
-
You're welcome Mike. Thanks for reading it. This issue shows us that LHO most likely had a contact in intelligence and that he was prevented from making contact with him. The moment that LHO was made the patsy all contact with outside people was eliminated.
IMO this is why those few who were given access to LHO are suspicious.
In which we learn that "all contact with outside people was eliminated." LOL. Didn't Oswald walk among the world press in the hallways answering their questions? Didn't he meet with his family members? Didn't he make calls to Ruth Paine? At a minimum, he appears to have been treated no differently than any other prison. If anything, the DPD put his safety at risk by being too transparent and allowing the press and members of the public to frequent the station. And the conspiracy plan was to allow Oswald to use the phone, preclude him from talking to his "contact" but retain a record of the telephone number? Those nutty conspirators. That is almost as good as contriving a story to put Oswald on a bus that goes nowhere.
-
In which we learn that "all contact with outside people was eliminated." LOL. Didn't Oswald walk among the world press in the hallways answering their questions? Didn't he meet with his family members? Didn't he make calls to Ruth Paine? At a minimum, he appears to have been treated no differently than any other prison. If anything, the DPD put his safety at risk by being too transparent and allowing the press and members of the public to frequent the station. And the conspiracy plan was to allow Oswald to use the phone, preclude him from talking to his "contact" but retain a record of the telephone number? Those nutty conspirators. That is almost as good as contriving a story to put Oswald on a bus that goes nowhere.
They have no record of him placing a phone call just a receipt that appeared years later which is not acknowledged in a straight forward manner. What we do have is the statement of a woman, who by all accounts was there, who states her story. It seems like a conspiracy of sorts to just just discount it completely on God knows what basis A
-
Why was she asked to sign it and why did she refuse?
That's a fair question. Why did Carl Day refuse to sign a sworn statement in which he said he found the palm print on the rifle?
-
That's a fair question. Why did Carl Day refuse to sign a sworn statement in which he said he found the palm print on the rifle?
Sat it ain't so!
-
In which we learn that "all contact with outside people was eliminated." LOL. Didn't Oswald walk among the world press in the hallways answering their questions? Didn't he meet with his family members? Didn't he make calls to Ruth Paine?
Sure, after being held incommunicado until Saturday afternoon. And after they lied to Gregory Olds of the ACLU by telling him that Oswald hadn't requested a lawyer.
-
From the link that you provided:
http://www.whokilledjfk.net/raliegh_call.htm
"One of the ladies, Mrs. Alveeta A. Treon, made a statement concerning the
events of that night to assassination researcher and attorney Bernard
Fensterwald some five years after the assassination, but then refused to
sign it on advice from her lawyer, according to Fensterwald.
The Sheriff and the FBI. How did we come to know Mrs. Treon's story of what she witnessed and recorded on that night in 1963 ? now known as The Raleigh Call? In September of 1965, Mrs. Treon and her family, along with her souvenir LD call slip, moved from Dallas to Springfield, Missouri. And it was a "casual mention," as she described it, to a friend of hers about her experience the night of Oswald's aborted phone call that set things in motion.
Mickey Owen, Sheriff of Greene County, MO
Sheriff Mickey Owen It was at a dinner with a man named Winston Smith that the "casual mention" occurred. Mrs. Treon described Smith as someone she and her husband had known for many years, with whom they had transacted real estate business, and who had helped them with their move from Texas to Missouri. As a result of the dinner discussion, Smith called Mrs. Treon back on January 15, 1968, and told her that he had mentioned her story to Greene County (MO) Sheriff Mickey Owen, and that the Sheriff was "interested in learning more about it." (Owen was Sheriff of Greene County from 1965 until 1980, and is pictured at right. )
When interviewed by the HSCA's Surell Brady, Smith confirmed Mrs. Treon's statement that he had contacted Sheriff Owen with the story, thinking it was something that law enforcement would be interested in. Smith knew the Sheriff through his employment at that time as a custodial officer of medical records at the Federal Penitentiary in Springfield.
After hearing some of the details of Mrs. Treon's narrative, Sheriff Owen thought it credible enough that it should be turned over to the FBI. He contacted Jim Mitchell of the FBI Springfield (MO) office, and later told investigators that Mitchell interviewed Mrs. Treon and "did some type of investigation." When the FBI visited her home, Mrs. Treon said the men "appeared interested in the information as though they were hearing it for the first time," and they took with them her LD call slip in order to make a copy of it. When some time had passed and the LD slip had not been returned to her, she contacted Sheriff Owen, who was able to get it back for her.
The Affidavit and Exhibit A. At some point in early 1968, someone with much (but, as it turned out, somewhat flawed) information about Mrs. Treon's testimony concerning the Raleigh Call, prepared a statement in proper affidavit form ("Mrs. Alveeta A. Treon, of lawful age, being first duly sworn, deposes and says as follows...." etc.). Attached to it was a copy of her LD call slip, marked "Exhibit A."
Who would have done this, and more to the point, who would have had sufficient legal standing and knowledge to write it in correct form? Sheriff Owen immediately comes to mind, and this is bolstered by the fact that the document is written in and for Greene County, Missouri. However, Sheriff Owen told the HSCA that "he did not recall helping her prepare any kind of affidavit about the information." (Below is an excerpt of the affidavit, photocopied from the actual carbon copy made at the time the affidavit was originally typed.)
Excerpt from Mrs. Treon's unsigned affidavit.
Another possibility, though perhaps less likely, is that the FBI may have prepared the affidavit after their interview with Mrs. Treon. They did, after all, take away with them her LD slip, which would become Exhibit A. But would they have prepared an affidavit headed "State of Missouri / County of Greene"?
Mrs. Treon never saw this document until about 10 years after her interview with the FBI, and she certainly never signed it (therefore it was never notarized). When attorney Bernard Fensterwald first sent me a copy of the affidavit, he told me that he assumed Mrs. Treon refused to sign it on advice from her lawyer, though this does not appear to have been the case.
It became clear that Mrs. Treon had not seen the contents of "her" affidavit when HSCA Special Counsel Surell Brady asked her about some of the things contained in it. Brady therefore sent Mrs. Treon a copy of the document, and asked her to respond to two sets of questions concerning it: "(1) Did you give the information in the affidavit? If so, when and to whom? Was the affidavit ever signed by you and notarized? (2) Is the information contained in the affidavit correct and accurate? If not, please indicate on the affidavit itself any inaccuracies or misstatements."
As it turned out, it would be a trash can that would provide Mrs. Treon with her biggest problem with what appeared in the document. Here is how the original, unedited version of the affidavit (written as if in first person by Mrs. Treon) describes the series of events after Mrs. Swinney failed to place Oswald's call:
A few moments later, Mrs. Swinney tore the page off her notation pad and threw it in the waste paper basket. I think the time of the Oswald call would be about 10:45 p.m. and Mrs. Swinney left at around 11:00 p.m. or just after.
When she walked out of the room, I got up from my position, walked to the waste paper basket and took the piece of paper out. It was just an unofficial piece of paper from a pad with details of the call. This is normal procedure. In a long distance call, an operator will scribble out details and only if the call is completed will she transfer this to an official ticket.
I immediately noted all the details made by Mrs. Swinney and made out a long distance call ticket. I threw this scrap of paper back into the waste paper basket. At the time I didn't even think about keeping it. All I wanted was a souvenir.
Upon reading the document, Mrs. Treon was particularly upset with the above "trash diving" characterization. It is good that she had the opportunity to set the record straight, because that section led some who read it to believe it was a very weak link in her story.
When all that was available to researchers was this unrevised, unedited, inaccurate copy of the affidavit (and its Exhibit A, the LD call slip), the "second hand" depiction of Mrs. Treon's going through the trash can for information about the call caused some to doubt that the call ever existed. In 1970, researcher Paul Hoch, among the first to comment on the Raleigh Call, used the trash can incident to conclude that an inebriated John David Hurt must have attempted to place a crank call into the jail to Oswald and that Mrs. Treon "picked up the wrong piece of paper ? the one relating to Hurt's attempted call to Oswald ? and recorded it as if it were the call from Oswald (probably to attorney Abt) which she had just witnessed." (See below for more on Hoch's theory.)
Mrs. Treon, however, unequivocally stated that whoever wrote up the affidavit document got that part of it very wrong. In the corrected copy of the affidavit that she returned to the HSCA, she wrote this about what Mrs. Swinney did with the LD slip she had written out: "I did not say this. I do not know what Mrs. Swinney did with her L.D. ticket."
And concerning the assertion that she relied on waste paper from a trash can for her information, she wrote this: "I did not say all this. I was asked if I knew what Mrs. Swinney did with her ticket. I said I had no idea, that tickets on L.D. calls not completed were not normally kept but I did not know what she did with it. I heard Oswald place the call ? give his name etc. as I was on the line." Mrs. Treon did suggest, though, that had the FBI asked her what Mrs. Swinney did with her LD call slip, it would have been logical for her to tell them that she probably threw it away, though she does not know that for certain.
-
Gregory Olds testimony is a matter of record. The last thing law enforcement wanted was for Oswald to retain a lawyer and clam up. Gregory Olds states he was assured by police his services were not needed earlier Friday evening. Olds also attended the midnight press conference that Friday night, but it was a zoo, and could not hear Oswald's request for someone to step forward and give him legal assistance. Oswald was allowed apparently, to use a phone and did call Ruth Paine and perhaps others. Calls to Abt and Hurt were unsuccessful as reported. Personally, with that situation, I don't think anyone wanted to step forward!
BB
-
Gregory Olds testimony is a matter of record. The last thing law enforcement wanted was for Oswald to retain a lawyer and clam up. Gregory Olds states he was assured by police his services were not needed earlier Friday evening. Olds also attended the midnight press conference that Friday night, but it was a zoo, and could not hear Oswald's request for someone to step forward and give him legal assistance. Oswald was allowed apparently, to use a phone and did call Ruth Paine and perhaps others. Calls to Abt and Hurt were unsuccessful as reported. Personally, with that situation, I don't think anyone wanted to step forward!
BB
Bruce It wouldn't surprise if that were the case .The importance here IMO, is that it gives the signature of intelligence being involved with Oswald
-
Ruth Paine did not care much for Lee Harvey Oswald and she even thought it was a bit much for LHO to ask her for assistance in trying to reach John Abt and or make a call to obtain the services of an ACLU attorney . Who knows if these calls were even made by Ruth Paine . I have my doubts about the validity and actions of Ruth Paine in this whole case .
-
Bruce It wouldn't surprise if that were the case .The importance here IMO, is that gives the signature of intelligence being involved with Oswald
The importance here IMO, is that gives the signature of intelligence being involved with Oswald
Bulls Eye!!..... Lee was not about to blow his cover as a agent by blurting out that he was an agent.....But he did request that "SOMEONE" come forward and provide legal assistance.
-
Walt,
You make a good point. The more I look into this, the more I see intelligence. The Dallas police apparently could not afford or did not want a tape recorder when they questioned suspects. I go with the latter. Hours and hours of interviews lost forever. And we only have what Captain Fritz remembers from his notes. And that is not nearly 50 percent of what went on in his absence! Most important crime in the 20th century and we have to go by what people "remember". The police had to build a case against him by whatever means, pure and simple.
BB
-
Why throw away the notes of what he said?
-
Still waiting on how those who seem to want to Ms Treon for not wanting to sign an affidavit typed from an unknown source that she did not agree with on one point which i have already gone onto previously which is basically she did not go looking in the trash for Sweeny's note Anyway according to Proctor the HCSA did have a staff dedicated to this phone call question And while there is no mention of it in the final report there was a report from this effort from HCSA Senior Staff Counsel Surrell Brady Here is a copy of that report
DRAFT
Book 3
VIII. E7
JOHN HURT ALLEGATION:
Is it true that Lee Harvey Oswald attempted to call John Hurt of Raleigh, North Carolina, a former U.S. Army Intelligence Officer, on November 23, 1963 from the Dallas City Jail?
By Surell Brady
Senior Staff Counsel
House Select Committee on Assassinations
In August 1977 the House Select Committee on Assassinations received information that Oswald had allegedly attempted to place a call from the Dallas City Jail on the night of November 23, 1963 to John Hurt in Raleigh, North Carolina. In addition to what it might reveal about Oswald's associates, this information was also considered important because of an additional allegation that Hurt was connected with U.S. Army Intelligence. The information about the call came to the Committee from Alveeta Treon, who was employed at the time of the assassination at the Dallas City Hall as a switchboard operator.
In August 1977 the Committee also received an undated and unsigned affidavit concerning the circumstances of the alleged phone call, and a form used to record information on long distance calls made from the Dallas City Hall was attached to the affidavit.
The affidavit was sent to the Committee by Jim Kostman of the Assassinations Information Bureau.1 Kostman informed the Committee he found an unsigned and undated carbon copy of the affidavit in the files of the Committee to Investigate Assassinations in Washington, D.C. and he forwarded a copy of that carbon to the HSCA.2 He had no information about the origin of the affidavit.3
The Committee sent a copy of the affidavit to Mrs. Treon for her to authenticate.4 Mrs. Treon made corrections to the facts contained in the copy and returned it to the Committee.5 She told Committee staff that she had never before seen the affidavit nor prepared one and she did not know who had written it.6
According to the information contained in the corrected affidavit, Mrs. Treon stated that on the night of November 23, 1963 she was assigned to work the 11:00 p.m. to 7:00 a.m. shift at the City Hall switchboard; she arrived for work early that evening, at approximately 10:15 p.m.7 At that time another switchboard employee, Mrs. Louise Swinney, was still at work.8 Mrs. Swinney was scheduled to leave work at 11:00 p.m.9 When Mrs. Treon started work, Mrs. Swinney informed her that two law enforcement officials would be coming into the switchboard room that night to be present when Lee Harvey Oswald made a call from the jail and that Mrs. Swinney had instructions from her superiors for her and Mrs. Treon to cooperate.10 Mrs. Swinney informed Mrs. Treon that the law enforcement officials would listen in on the call made by Oswald.11
Mrs. Treon stated that after about ten or fifteen minutes two men entered the room and showed their identification to Mrs. Swinney.12 The men went into the equipment room.13 A few minutes later a red light appeared on the switchboard, indicating that a call was being made from the jail.14 Mrs. Swinney handled the call.
Mrs. Treon said that even though both she and Mrs. Swinney "plugged in" to take the call at the same time, Mrs. Swinney gave the impression that she intended to handle the call, as though that was part of the "instructions" she had received.15 However, Mrs. Treon stayed on the line during the call and heard Oswald give the information for the number he wanted to call.16 Mrs. Treon stated that Oswald gave the name John Hurt and two numbers.17 As she listened, Mrs. Treon wrote the information on a telephone call slip used by the Dallas City Hall operators.18 She said she signed Mrs. Swinney's name to the slip since Mrs. Swinney had actually handled the call; she then kept the slip as a souvenir.19 Mrs. Treon's daughter Sharon was present at the time in the switchboard room and had earlier asked her mother to get a souvenir of Oswald's call.20 The daughter, Sharon Kovac, also worked in the City Hall and had the habit of visiting her mother at the switchboard to sit and talk.21
In a telephone interview with Committee staff on December 6, 1978, Sharon Kovac stated that she was employed at the time of the assassination by the Dallas Police Department as a stenographer in the records office.22 On the night of November 23, 1963 Ms. Kovac was working the 10:30 p.m. to 6:30 a.m. shift.23 During the night she went into the switchboard room to talk with her mother as she often did when they were both working.24 Ms. Kovac recalled in the interview that her mother had received word before Ms. Kovac arrived that Oswald was going to make a call that night from the jail.25 Ms. Kovac asked her mother to get a souvenir of the call for her.26
Ms. Kovac remembers that two men in business suits came into the switchboard equipment room a short time later to be present when Oswald made the call.27 Ms. Kovac said she had never seen either of the men before and therefore believes they were not employed by the Dallas Police Department because she was familiar with most people there from her work in the Department.28
Ms. Kovac recalls that when Oswald attempted to place his call, her mother was on the line.29 Ms. Kovac said that she cannot recall if anyone else was present at the switchboard.30 She said she saw her mother write the details of the call as she listened on the line.31 Ms. Kovac said she does not think the person Oswald wanted to call answered and the call was not completed.32
Ms. Kovac said that sometime later her mother gave her a copy of the telephone call slip which she had prepared that night.33
Mrs. Treon said that she saw Mrs. Swinney write the details of the call down on a note pad.34 Mrs. Swinney repeated the number to Oswald.35 She then closed the key and called in to the men in the equipment room and said that Oswald was personally placing a call.36 According to Mrs. Treon, Mrs. Swinney appeared very nervous and seemed to be trembling.37
As Mrs. Treon watched, Mrs. Swinney did not place the call for Oswald. Instead, she opened the key on Oswald's line and told him, "I am sorry the number doesn't answer."38 She then disconnected Oswald's line.39 The two men in the equipment room came out, thanked the women for the cooperation, and left.40 Mrs. Swinney then left work at about 11:00 p.m.41
The long distance call slip given to the Committee carries the heading "City of Dallas Long Distance Messages." It has handwritten notations of "collect" and "jail." It states that the person calling is Lee Harvey Oswald on 11/23/63. The call was being placed to John Hurt in Raleigh, North Carolina at 919/834-7430 or 833-1253. The signature on the card is "L. Swinney" with the initials "CA" and "DA" circled above the signature.
When Alveeta Treon was contacted by the House Select Committee on Assassinations in December, 1977 about the Hurt allegation she stated that she still had a copy of the telephone number she had copied on November 23, 1963 when Oswald attempted to place the call.42 She identified the number as 834-7430 in Raleigh, North Carolina and maintained that Oswald wanted to call John Hurt,43 consistent with the telephone call slip received by the Committee.
In a later telephone interview with Committee staff in November, 1978, Mrs. Treon explained that the notations "CA" and "DA" on the slip indicated "cancelled" and "didn't answer," because the call was never completed."44
Mrs. Treon stated that she did not mention to anyone at the time that Mrs. Swinney had appeared so upset during the incident because Mrs. Treon did not want to "cause trouble at the switchboard."45 Mrs. Treon stated that she only casually mentioned the incident to a friend of hers named Winston Smith.46 Later, in January 1968, Mrs. Treon received a call from Sheriff Owen of Springfield, Missouri who had received word of the incident from Winston Smith and wanted more information about it.47
In a telephone interview with a Committee staff counsel on December 4, 1978, Winston J. Smith of Springfield, Missouri stated that he recalled the information Alveeta Treon had given him about a telephone call by Oswald, but that he no longer has any recollection of exactly when the conversation took place.48
Smith said that he helped Mrs. Treon move from Dallas to Springfield.49 Sometime later when he was having dinner with Mrs. Treon and her husband, they discussed that trip and began talking about the events in Dallas at the time of President Kennedy's assassination.50 At that point Mrs. Treon said she had something interesting and showed Smith a slip of paper which contained information about a telephone call by Lee Harvey Oswald.51 Smith said he could not remember all of the information on the slip, but it contained two telephone numbers; he memorized one of the numbers as 833-1253.52 He recalled also that the information was that Oswald was trying to call a man named "Hurts" in Raleigh, North Carolina.53
According to Smith, Mrs. Treon told him that on the night of November 23, 1963 she got to work early to relieve another woman on the Dallas City Hall switchboard.54 When Oswald tried to place the call, the other woman working at the switchboard became "flustered" and disconnected Oswald's line without placing the call for him.55
Smith said Mrs. Treon told him the other woman had written the information from Oswald's call on a slip of paper.56 When she left that night, Mrs. Treon retrieved the slip from the wastepaper basket.57 Smith did not recall Mrs. Treon telling him that she had actually heard Oswald on the line herself.58
Smith said that sometime later he became concerned that the information he had received from Mrs. Treon might be important, so he related the details to Sheriff Mickey Owen of Springfield.59 Smith said he was contacted about the allegation sometime later by a writer and by two men whose identity he never learned. The two men told him that "Shaw" (presumably Clay Shaw of New Orleans who was indicted, tried and acquitted in New Orleans of a conspiracy to assassinate President Kennedy) and two men named "Hurts" had been arrested in connection with the Kennedy investigation. Smith said the men told him that the older "Hurts" had an alibi for the time of the assassination and the younger "Hurts" refused to give any information to law enforcement officers. Smith said he had no further contact with law enforcement officials about the incident.60
Sheriff Mickey Owen was contacted by Committee staff on November 9, 1978 about the Treon information. At the time Sheriff Owen said he had first received the information from Winston Smith of Springfield, whom Sheriff Owen knew as an employee in the medical records office of the federal penitentiary in Springfield.61 Owen said he then went out to talk to Mrs. Treon about the information.62 He said he could no longer recall the details of the information she provided, nor the date, but that it sounded as though it would be more appropriately handled by federal officials; he therefore contacted the local F.B.I. office.63 Sheriff Own said he had no further contact with the matter, but believes the F.B.I. conducted its own investigation.64
Sheriff Owen said he had no way to assess the validity of the information provided by Mrs. Treon, but that she appeared in all respects "normal."65 She also had some papers which contained details of the information she offered.66
Based on the information provided by Sheriff Owen, the Committee requested in writing of the F.B.I. any and all information contained in the Springfield or Kansas City FBI field office relating to the John Hurt allegation or Alveeta Treon.67
Louise Swinney was interviewed by an investigator from the Committee on February 6, 1978 at the telephone room of the new city hall in Dallas. Mrs. Swinney is now supervisor of the Dallas City Hall Telephone Operators.68
Mrs. Swinney told the investigator that at about 7:00 p.m. on November 23, 1963 she was told by the Dallas Police that if Oswald tried to make any telephone calls, they would send two men into the telephone room to "tap in on the line."69 According to Mrs. Swinney, at about 10:00 p.m. that night two Dallas Police Department homicide Detectives came into the telephone room and identified themselves to her.70 Shortly thereafter, Oswald tried to make two calls.71 Mrs. Swinney stated that one call was to be placed to "Lawyer Abt" in New York; she stated that she does not remember to whom the other call was to be placed.72 Mrs. Swinney stated that she wrote the two numbers on a piece of blue paper which she believes she may still have at home.73 She did not place either call for Oswald.74 The detectives left after they got the numbers from her.75 She said the name John Hurt was not familiar to her.76
Mrs. Swinney said that she remembers Alveeta Treon well, but does not recall if they worked together on the night of November 23, 1963.77
During that interview of Mrs. Swinney by a Committee investigator, the investigator noted that Mrs. Swinney became "nervous" when he identified himself. She asked if she had to talk about the incident,78 explaining that she had earlier been harassed by news reporters when she did not want to be interviewed.79
On April 20, 1978, investigators from the Select Committee showed Louise Swinney the telephone call slip which had been provided the Committee by Alveeta Treon.80 Mrs. Swinney stated that the signature of her name which appears on the slip is not her handwriting.81 She reiterated that she handled a call for Oswald on November 23, 1963 to an attorney named Abt and another name she cannot remember, but that it was John Hurt.82 During that interview Mrs. Swinney stated that Alveeta Treon was the only other person who could have made out the telephone call slip because she was the only other person working that night.83
Investigators form the House Select Committee on Assassinations interviewed John David Hurt on April 11, 1978 at his home at 201 Hillsborough Street in Raleigh, North Carolina. Hurt is 68 years old and married to Billie G. Hurt.84
Even though the investigators had not notified Hurt in advance of the interview, when they identified themselves Hurt said he knew they were there because of the "rumor" that Oswald had allegedly tried to call him during the weekend of November 22, 1963.85 Hurt said he had heard the allegation from the news media, but he could not remember specifically who had contacted him.86 Hurt said he had never spoken to nor been interviewed by law enforcement officials about the alleged call.87
When Hurt was shown the telephone call slip made out by Alveeta Treon, he acknowledged that the number 834-7430 was his number in Raleigh at the time of the assassination and is still listed to him.88 However, he could not identify the other number listed on the slip, 833-1253.89
Committee staff was informed by the Southern Bell Telephone Company in North Carolina that in 1963 the number 833-1253 was listed to John W. Hurt on Forest Road in Raleigh, North Carolina.90 According to Southern Bell records, both phone numbers were unpublished in 1963.91
Hurt said he was at home the entire weekend of the assassination and never received any calls from anyone about the events in Dallas.92 He said also that he had never heard of Lee Harvey Oswald until the assassination and that he had never received any telephone calls from Oswald.93 When asked for any possible explanation for his name coming up in connection with Oswald, Hurt could offer none. However, his wife explained that at some time around the time of the assassination the telephone company had erroneously given their number out to another party.94 She said that for a time they received calls intended for that party, but could not recall the name of the party nor who any of the callers were.95 The Hurts stated that they have had the same phone number for about 20 years.96
On April 6, 1970 a complaint was filed in the United States District Court for the Northern District of Illinois in the case of Sherman Skolnick v. National Archives and Record Service. According to a document of the United States Secret Service which recounted the text of the complaint filed by Skolnick, the complaint alleged that Oswald made a collect call on November 23, 1963 to John David Hurt of Raleigh, North Carolina and that Hurt's background included service as a special agent of the United States Army Counterintelligence Corps.97
When asked by the Committee investigators about his military background, Hurt stated that he enlisted in the military and served approximately 1942-1946, and that he served in the Army Counterintelligence Corps in Europe and Japan.98 Hurt stated that his intelligence work included interviewing nationals of European countries who requested entry into the United States to determine if they had any connection with the German Secret Police.99 Hurt said also that he was also stationed on Honshu Island in Japan; the only work of particular interest which he was involved the capture of a quantity of sliver which the Germans were using to trade with the Japanese.100 Hurt stated that his last contact with the military was approximately 1947 when he received a letter offering him a commission, which he declined.101
Hurt attended the University of Virginia Law School and received a law degree before entering the service.102 After military service Hurt did insurance claim adjustment work in North and South Carolina.103
The House Select Committee on Assassinations requested of the Federal Bureau of Investigation any and all files or records concerning or referring to John David Hurt to verify Hurt's background.104
According to an F.B.I. memo dated July 23, 1959 to the Special Agent in Charge of the Charlotte, North Carolina Field Office from the Director of the F.B.I., John Hurt contacted the Bureau at 1:25 a.m. on that date to inform the F.B.I. that he feared his safety might be in jeopardy because of information he had furnished to Governor Luther Hodges of North Carolina.105 According to the memo, Hurt had given the Governor information "regarding tax matters and liquor matters" which he thought might precipitate an investigation.106 After providing that information Hurt noticed an "increasing number of hoodlums" in the Raleigh area whom he felt might have been imported to do him physical harm.107
According to another memo dated July 28, 1959 to the F.B.I. Director from the Charlotte field office, Hurt was interviewed by F.B.I. Special Agency David W. Watson on July 23, 1959.108 At that time Hurt related that he was fired by the North Carolina Department of Motor Vehicles four years earlier after having a nervous breakdown.109 Hurt related additionally that he wanted the officials of Rex Hospital in Raleigh investigated because he had received an order from them that during his job of delivering newspapers to racks in the hospital he was to discontinue going into the patents' rooms to sell papers.110 Hurt said he sought admission at Duke University Hospital after being advised by the Veterans Administration that he needed psychiatric treatment, but he was refused admittance.111 According to the F.B.I. memo, Hurt stated that he was suspicious of all of his neighbors and thought they should be investigated because unknown individuals were making him do things he did not want to do.112 The memo stated further that Joe Garrestt of the North Carolina Department of Motor Vehicles informed Special Agency Watson that Hurt worked for the Department from January 25, 1954 until May 2, 1955, at which time his resignation was accepted because of his "mental condition."113
According to the FBI, the foregoing memos were the only documents located in Bureau files identifiable with John David Hurt.
The Committee also requested any and all records on Hurt maintained by the Department of Defense.114
According to the Department of Defense Congressional Liaison, the Army was unable to locate any files on Hurt.115 According to the file of John David Hurt maintained by the Veterans Administration, the military files on Hurt which had been housed at the military records center in St. Louis, Missouri had been destroyed by fire.116
The Veterans Administration file contained Hurt's separation quality record, which identifies Hurt as having served as an investigator of accidents and sabotage; he attended an eight week military intelligence training school and war intelligence course.117 The file further documented a severe case of psoriatic arthritis with which Hurt has been afflicted since 1942. By April 1963 Hurt had been rated by the Veterans Administration as 100 per cent disabled with loss of the use of both hands due to that condition.118 According to a report of an examination on November 26, 1963, a Board of Examiners of the Veterans Administration determined that "this veteran's hands serve no more useful purpose than would amputation..."119 In June and August 1964 fingers on both hands were amputated. Hurt's medical history also included treatment for a psychiatric disorder and alcoholism.120
The Committee had also received information that a person with a name sounding phonetically similar to "hurt" or "Heard" was being investigated in connection with the assassination by the Secret Service.
In the complaint filed in United States District Court for the Northern District of Illinois in April 1970 by Sherman Skolnick against the National Archives and Record Service, it was alleged that acting Supervisor Maurice Martineau of the Chicago office of the Secret Service called one of his agents and asked if the agent had ever heard of a John Heard.121 According to the complaint, Martineau also asked the agent to pull all cards in the Chicago office marked "Heard."122 The complaint stated that "It is believed that the Secret Service arrested a John Heard at that time."123
In an interview with Committee investigators on January 19, 1978, former Secret Service Agency Abraham Bolden stated that on or about November 26, 1963, Agent Thomas Kelly arrived in Chicago from Dallas and mentioned the name John Heard or Hurt.124 Bolden stated that the Chicago office files were searched for a similar sounding name.125 Bolden also said that he and Agent Conrad Cross were sent to a Black-Spanish Chicago neighborhood to attempt to locate a person who lived there on November 22, 1963.126 Bolden could not remember the name of the person but thought it was related to a threat which had been received by the Protective Research Service of the Secret Service.127 Bolden had no further information to relate regarding John Hurt or Heard.
The Committee made a written request to the Secret Service on March 1, 1978 for any and all records "concerning or referring to" John Heard, also known as John Hurt.128 The Secret Service responded to the Committee on March 14, 1978 that the Secret Service has no files identifiable with John Hurt or John Heard.129
Conclusion
The information provided by Mrs. Treon, her daughter, and Louise Swinney all indicate that Oswald did in fact attempt to place a call from the Dallas City Hall Jail on the night of November 23, 1963. Ms. Kovac and Mrs. Swinney also confirm Mrs. Treon's allegation that "law enforcement" officials came into the switchboard room at the time of Oswald's call. The Committee has been unable to identify those men or the agency for which they worked.
Mrs. Treon's account would indicate also that Mrs. Swinney deceived Oswald and did not put his call through as requested. If believed, that may indicate there was some agreement between Mrs. Swinney and the law enforcement officials to thwart Oswald's attempt to place a call from the jail. It is known that Oswald never reached Attorney John Abt in New York City to represent him after his arrest. If the law enforcement officials did in fact interfere with Oswald's attempt to contact an attorney, the committee recognizes that that would have been a serious violation of his constitutional rights, in view of how long he had been in custody at that point and the extensive interrogation to which he had been subjected.
The Committee also notes that Mrs. Swinney appeared nervous when contacted by Committee investigators to discuss the incident. While that may indicate some concern on the part of Mrs. Swinney that she had been involved in something devious, the Committee is not able to conclude as a fact based on what has been presented that there was actually interference with Oswald's call by Mrs. Swinney.
The Committee has not been able to find any corroboration that Oswald did in fact try to call john Hurt of Raleigh, North Carolina, or even that Oswald was acquainted with a man named John Hurt. However, the allegation is disturbing because the Committee has found no evidence that Mrs. Treon had any motive to invent the story, especially with such precise details as the actual phone number listed to John Hurt.
The fact that the telephone call slip listed two numbers, both for men named John Hurt in Raleigh, North Carolina, makes it seem less plausible that Oswald was in fact trying to call one of the men. If the man had been an actual associate, it is doubtful that Oswald would have given both numbers.
While the Committee cannot explain how John Hurt's name and phone number have been raised in the assassination investigation, several "possible" explanations present themselves. If Mrs. Treon is to [be] believed, it is possible that someone had given Oswald the name and numbers to trick or deceive Oswald by putting him in touch with a person who was not in any way able to help him after his arrest. On the other hand, the fact that two numbers for two different men with the same name are given could indicate that Mrs. Treon had misunderstood the name she thought she heard on the switchboard phone, and then gotten the numbers from directory assistance to complete the telephone call slip. Each of these theories is of course mere speculation, and in the absence of any real information on how the name was given to Oswald or Mrs. Treon, cannot be resolved by this Committee.
Based on information received by the Committee that a John Heard or Hurt was being investigated by the U.S. Secret Service at the time of the assassination, it is also possible that John Hurt's name has merely been confused with a name phonetically similar. However, that does not explain how John Hurt's telephone number and the city in which he lived were also included. The Committee is also concerned by the independent allegation that John Heard or Hurt was in fact being investigated. However, the Committee cannot form any conclusion about the fact of that allegation in view of the response of the Secret Service to the contrary.
While the fact that Hurt had actually served in U.S. Army Intelligence was a provocative lead, the Committee has found no evidence to indicate that Hurt had any military intelligence assignment at the time of the assassination. His veteran records are consistent with what he told Committee investigators, that he has had no active3 military assignment or employment since the end of World War II.
Based on its investigation of Hurt and information available to the Committee from several government agencies, the Committee is satisfied that John David Hurt was in no way involved in the assassination or any subsequent investigations.
FOOTNOTES:
The footnotes transcribed here are exactly as found in the original draft by Surrell Brady. In places where I have certain source information that she did not (e.g., Document numbers), I have supplied the information (in italics and inside parentheses).
Memo from Jim Kostman to HSCA Chief Researcher Donovan Gay, 8/4/77, JFK Document No. (014830)
HSCA Staff Outside Contact Report, 11/9/78, JFK Document No.___
Id.
HSCA Staff Letter to Alveeta Treon, 11/7/78, JFK Document No.___
Letter and Statement from Alveeta Treon to HSCA Staff Counsel Surell Brady, 11/30/78, JFK Document No.___
HSCA Staff Outside Contact Report, 12/4/78, JFK Document No. 01359
Treon Statement, p. 1, JFK Document No. (001952)
Id.
Id.
Id.
Id.
Ibid. at 2.
Id.
Id.
HSCA Staff Outside Contact Report, 11/7/78, JFK Document No.___, P. 2.
Ibid. at 2-3.
Ibid. at 3.
Id.
Id.
Treon Statement, JFK Document No. (001952), p. 2.
Ibid. at 1
HSCA Staff Outside Contact Report, 12/__/78, JFK Document No.___, p. 1.
Id.
Id.
Ibid. at 1-2.
Ibid. at 3.
Ibid. at 2.
Id.
Id.
Id.
Id.
Id.
Ibid. at 3.
Treon Statement, JFK Document No. (001952), P. 2.
Id.
Id.
Id.
Id.
Id.
Id.
Id.
HSCA Staff Memorandum from HSCA Investigator Harold Rose to HSCA Chief Investigator Cliff Fenton, 12/5/77, JFK Document No. 003972.
Id.
HSCA Outside Contact Report, 11/7/78, JFK Document No.___, p. 3.
Treon Statement, JFK Document No. (001952), P. 3.
Id.
Id.
HSCA Staff Outside Contact Report, 12/4/78, JFK Document No. 013550, p. 1.
Id. Mrs. Treon moved from Dallas to Springfield in Sept. 1965. Treon Statement, JFK Document No. (001952), p. 1.
HSCA Staff Outside Contact Report, 12/4/78, JFK Document No. 013550, p. 1.
Id.
Id.
Id.
Ibid. at 1-2.
Ibid. at 2.
Id.
Id.
Id.
Id.
Id.
HSCA Outside Contact Report, 11/9/78, JFK Document No.___
Id.
Id.
Id.
Id.
Id.
HSCA Letter to FBI, 11/7/78, JFK Document No.___
HSCA Staff Interview of Louise G. Swinney, 2/6/78, JFK Document No. 005883.
Ibid. at 1-2.
Ibid. at 2.
Id.
Id.
Id.
Id.
Id.
Id.
Id.
Id.
Id.
HSCA Staff Outside Contact Report, 4/20/78, JFK Document No. 007493.
Id.
Id.
Id.
HSCA Staff Interview of John David Hurt, 4/11/78, JFK Document No. 007993.
Ibid. at 2.
Id.
Id.
Id.
Id.
Telephone Interview of Carolyn Rabon, 12/13/78, HSCA Staff Outside Contact Report, JFK Document No. 013650.
Telephone Interview of Carolyn Rabon, 12/13/78, HSCA Staff Outside Contact Report, JFK Document No. 013649.
HSCA Staff Interview of John David Hurt, 4/11/78, JFK Document No. 007993, p. 2.
Id.
Id.
Id.
Id.
U.S. Secret Service Memorandum to USSS Washington, D.C. from USSS Chicago, JFK Document No.___, P.___
HSCA Staff Interview of John David Hurt, 4/11/78, JFK Document No. 007993, p. 3.
Id.
Id.
Ibid. at 4.
Id.
Id.
HSCA Letter to FBI, 2/17/78, JFK Document No.___
FBI Memorandum to SAC Charlotte from Director, 7/23/59, Serial 63-5507-1.
Id.
Id.
FBI Memorandum to FBI Director from SAC Charlotte, 7/28/59, Serial 63-5507-1.
Id.
Id.
Id.
Id.
Id.
HSCA Letter to Dept. of Defense, 3/13/78, FJK Document No.___
HSCA Staff Outside Contact Report, 3/21/78, JFK Document No. 006516.
Record of Disclusure of Information Under Privacy Act, 4/20/78, to Murray Britton, John David Hurt Veterans Administration File.
[Undated] Army Separation Quality Record, Hurt Veterans Administration File.
Veterans Administration Rating Decision Continuation Sheet, 7/27/64, Hurt Veterans Administration File.
Rating Decision, 3/27/64, Hurt Veterans Administration File.
Hospital Summary Diagnoses by Walter Cobbs, M.D., 4/13/72, Hurt Veterans Administration File.
U.S. Secret Service Memorandum to U.S.S.S. Washington, D.C. from U.S.S.S. Chicago, ___ , JFK Document No.___
Id.
Id.
HSCA Staff Interview of Abraham Bolden, 1/19/78, JFK Document No. 004825, p. 6.
Id.
Id.
Id.
HSCA Letter to U.S. Secret Service, 3/1/78, JFK Document No.___
Letter from Robert Goff, Legal Counsel, U.S. Secret Service, to HSCA, 3/14/78, JFK Document No. 006463.
Telephone slip from the Dallas jail:
Telephone slip from the Dallas jail
BIBLIOGRAPHY:
Army Separation Quality Records, Hurt Veterans Administration File, [Undated]
FBI Memorandum to FBI Director from SAC Charlotte, 7/28/59, Serial 63-5507-1
FBI Memorandum to SAC Charlotte from Director, 7/23/59, Serial 63-5507-1
Hospital Summary Diagnoses by Walter Cobbs, M.D., 4/13/72, Hurt Veterans Administration File
HSCA Letter to Dept. of Defense, 3/13/78
HSCA Letter to FBI, 11/7/78
HSCA Letter to FBI, 2/17/78
HSCA Letter to U.S. Secret Service, 3/1/78
HSCA Outside Contact Report, 11/7/78
HSCA Outside Contact Report, 11/9/78
HSCA Staff Interview of Abraham Bolden, 1/19/78, JFK Document No. 004825
HSCA Staff Interview of John David Hurt, 4/11/78, JFK Document No. 007993
HSCA Staff Letter to Alveeta Treon, 11/7/78
HSCA Staff Memorandum from HSCA Investigator Harold Rose to HSCA Chief Investigator Cliff Fenton, 12/5/77, JFK Document No. 003972
HSCA Staff Olutside Contact Report, 11/7/78
HSCA Staff Outside Contact Report, 11/9/78
HSCA Staff Outside Contact Report, 12/ ? /78
HSCA Staff Outside Contact Report, 12/4/78
HSCA Staff Outside Contact Report, 12/4/78, JFK Document No. 013550
HSCA Staff Outside Contact Report, 3/21/78, JFK Document No. 006516
HSCA Staff Outside Contact Report, 4/20/78, JFK Document No. 007493
Letter and Statement from Alveeta Treon to HSCA Staff Counsel Surell Brady, 11/30/78
Letter from Robert Goff, Legal Counsel, U.S. Secret Service, to HSCA, 3/14/78, JFK Document No. 006463
Memo from Jim Kostman to HSCA Chief Researcher Donovan Gay, 8/4/77, JFK Document 014830
NSCA Staff Interview of Louise G. Swinney, 2/6/78, JFK Document No. 005883
Rating Decision, 3/27/64, Hurt Veterans Administration File
Records of Disclosure of Information Under Privacy Act, 4/20/78, to Murray Britton, John David Hurt Veterans Administration File
Telephone Interview of Carolyn Rabon, 12/13/78, HSCA Staff Outside Contact Report, JFK Document No. 13649
Telephone Interview of Carolyn Rabon, 12/13/78, HSCA Staff Outside Contact Report, JFK Document No. 13650
Treon Statement [Affidavit]
U.S. Secret Service Memorandum to U.S.S.S. Washington, D.C. from U.S.S.S. Chicago, [Undated]
U.S. Secret Service Memorandum to USSS Washington from USSS Chicago
Veterans Administration Rating Decision Continuation Sheet, 7/27/64, Hurt Veterans Administration File
-
The Raleigh/Hurt Phone Connection
http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/Raleigh.htm
https://genius.com/Fine-young-cannibals-funny-how-love-is-lyrics
Funny How Love Is by FYC
...I don't want your magazines I don't want your cloths
Take them from my house let me be alone
Never try to catch me again or call me on the phone
Don't send me letters I don't want to know....
http://www.groverproctor.us/jfk/jfk-1978-05-15-Treon-OCR.html
Outside Contact Report by Harold A. Rose,
concerning interview with
Alveeta Treon of Springfield, Missouri
3 May 1978
HSCA RECORD NUMBER 180-10120-10347 ? AGENCY FILE NUMBER 014830 ? DECLASSIFIED 7/2/93
Dr. Grover B. Proctor, Jr.
Identifying Information
Name: Alveeta Treon
Telephone: 417-UN5-8210
Address: 1721 Catalpha [ sic. ] St. ? Springfield, Missouri
Type of Contact: Telephone
Alveeta Treon, who worked as a telephone operator at Dallas City hall on Nov. 22, 1963, had told me on a prior occassion [ sic. ] , that on the night of the assassination, a man called the Dallas Police Department several times and wanted to report that there was a second assassin but she said that the P.D. dismissed it as a prank call. Mrs. Treon told me that she copied the information down and would try to locate it and call me. On this date, she called and stated that the man that called never gave his name, but he gave the name of the man that he said was the second assassin. The man's name was David Miller and that he fired the second shot. He carried the rifle with him when he exited out of the rear exit of the TSBD. David Miller then left in a car bearing Texas license plates T W 1784. This car was reportedly listed to David Miller's wife Mildred. Mrs. Treon stated that the original notes she took are in her hand writing and we may have them if wanted.
Signature: Harold A. Rose
(http://jfkdebate.com/images/OswaldStationWagonACjohnsonDavidMiller.jpg)
-
BTW, Jack Ruby's Carousel Club neighbor, Dave L Miller, proprietor of a book making outlet masquerading as
a clothes cleaning, shoe shine business, allegedly owned by his brother, Isidore Max Miller, a man of considerable
FBI interest, (Dave) was born in Galveston in 1909
http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/russ/testimony/miller_d.htm
TESTIMONY OF DAVE L. MILLER (Born May 26, 1909)
The testimony of Dave L. Miller was taken at 8:50 a.m., on July 25, 1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building, Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Burt W. Griffin, assistant counsel of the President's Commission.
.....
....and was unrelated to David Leon Miller, Sr, below this sentence.
https://www.findagrave.com/memorial/80722187/david-l_-miller
David L. Miller, Sr
BIRTH 5 Dec 1937
DEATH 26 Aug 2001 (aged 63)
BURIAL
Medlin Cemetery
Trophy Club, Denton County, Texas, USA
in the U.S., Social Security Applications and Claims Index, 1936-2007
Name: David Leon Miller
[David L Miller]
Gender: Male
Race: White
Birth Date: 5 Dec 1936
Birth Place: Atlanta Fult, Georgia
[Atlanta, Georgia]
Death Date: 26 Aug 2001
Father: Charlie R Miller
Mother: Maggie M Orrell
SSN: 255541731
Notes: Apr 1953: Name listed as DAVID LEON MILLER; 01 Oct 1999: Name listed as DAVID L MILLER
Charlie R Miller's remains rest in same cemetery as his son, David's and David's wife, Mildred's:
https://www.findagrave.com/memorial/80722147 , along with the remains of David's mother, Maggie.:
https://www.findagrave.com/memorial/80722097/maggie-marie-miller
In fall 1963, before the JFK Assassination, David Leon Miller, son of Charlie Roy Miller, married Mildred, fourteen years his senior....
Mildred A Click Miller was the daughter of BK Click, represented in the 1958 death certificate image, below.
https://www.findagrave.com/memorial/80722220/mildred-a_-miller
Mildred A. Miller
BIRTH 4 Oct 1923
DEATH 24 Feb 2006 (aged 82)
BURIAL
Medlin Cemetery
Trophy Club, Denton County, Texas, USA
A brief search... or two, reveals a considerable gnashing of teeth amongst a few JFK Assassination researchers.
Mildred was the daughter, of BK Click, raising interest since the early insertion of Mark Lane, in the case, when Click
was a controversial name, resulting from DA Henry Wade's early, alleged description of a taxi driver, Darryl Click, aka "Oak Cliff".
http://jfk.hood.edu/Collection/Weisberg%20Subject%20Index%20Files/V%20Disk/Verb%20Hal%201967/Item%2033.pdf
(http://jfkdebate.com/images/OswaldWeissbergHalVerbBoClick.jpg)
The conflict for those associating Mildred A Click Miller's father, BK Click, with Bo Click, and there were researchers ddiscussing this,
is that Mrs. Mildred A Miller's father was described as an elderly elevator operator who died in 1958.
(http://jfkdebate.com/images/OswaldDavidLeonMillerBKboClick.jpg)
-
BTW, Jack Ruby's Carousel Club neighbor, Dave L Miller, proprietor of a book making outlet masquerading as
a clothes cleaning, shoe shine business, allegedly owned by his brother, Isidore Max Miller, a man of considerable
FBI interest, (Dave) was born in Galveston in 1909
....and was unrelated to David Leon Miller, Sr, below this sentence.
In fall 1963, before the JFK Assassination,
.....married Mildred, fourteen years his senior....
A brief search... or two, reveals a considerable gnashing of teeth amongst a few JFK Assassination research.
Mildred was the daughter, of BK Click, raising interest since the early insertion of Mark Lane, in the case, when Click
was a controversial name, resulting from DA Henry Wade's early, alleged description of a taxi driver, Darryl Click, aka "Oak Cliff".
http://jfk.hood.edu/Collection/Weisberg%20Subject%20Index%20Files/V%20Disk/Verb%20Hal%201967/Item%2033.pdf
(http://jfkdebate.com/images/OswaldWeissbergHalVerbBoClick.jpg)
The conflict for those associating Mildred A Click Miller's father, BK Click, with Bo Click, and there were researchers ddiscussing this,
is that Mrs. Mildred A Miller's father was described as an elderly elevator operator who died in 1958.
(http://jfkdebate.com/images/OswaldDavidLeonMillerBKboClick.jpg)
What's the bottom line ?.... How are Daryl Click and Lee's phone call connected?
-
What's the bottom line ?.... How are Daryl Click and Lee's phone call connected?
Uhhh...the same witness, Mrs. Treon, who claimed Oswald attempted a call from DPD jail on Saturday, 11/23,
also claimed:
.......
http://www.groverproctor.us/jfk/jfk-1978-05-15-Treon-OCR.html
Outside Contact Report by Harold A. Rose,
concerning interview with
Alveeta Treon of Springfield, Missouri
3 May 1978
HSCA RECORD NUMBER 180-10120-10347 ? AGENCY FILE NUMBER 014830 ? DECLASSIFIED 7/2/93
Dr. Grover B. Proctor, Jr.
Identifying Information
Name: Alveeta Treon
Telephone: 417-UN5-8210
Address: 1721 Catalpha [ sic. ] St. ? Springfield, Missouri
Type of Contact: Telephone
Alveeta Treon, who worked as a telephone operator at Dallas City hall on Nov. 22, 1963, had told me on a prior occassion [ sic. ] , that on the night of the assassination, a man called the Dallas Police Department several times and wanted to report that there was a second assassin but she said that the P.D. dismissed it as a prank call. Mrs. Treon told me that she copied the information down and would try to locate it and call me. On this date, she called and stated that the man that called never gave his name, but he gave the name of the man that he said was the second assassin. The man's name was David Miller and that he fired the second shot. He carried the rifle with him when he exited out of the rear exit of the TSBD. David Miller then left in a car bearing Texas license plates T W 1784. This car was reportedly listed to David Miller's wife Mildred. Mrs. Treon stated that the original notes she took are in her hand writing and we may have them if wanted.
Signature: Harold A. Rose
A bit of googling will serve up the discussions of Ed Ledoux, et al, attempting to link BK Click, late father in law of David Leon Miller,
born 1937, with the name Bo Click, (described in Weisberg letter image in my post you quoted) one of two of their Click "suspects". I am pointing out that BK Click died in 1958, but the Miller
coincidences also center on Mildred A Click Miller's disturbed ex-husband, a Mr. Meharg, likely being a caller impersonating David Leon
Miller and in one instance, an SS agent.
https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=96312&relPageId=8&search=meharg_and%20secret
1. ALLEGATION THAT SON-IN-LAW (DAVID MILLER) OF WOMAN RESIDING AT 2307 FI, pg 8
Found in: Oswald 201 File, Vol 42
100-10461 Previous investigation has been conducted concerning MARION B. MEHARG and information attributed to him which is set forth on pages 49 to 56 of
facts developed in connection with the information allegedly furnished by MEHARG were presented to Assistant U. S. Attorney B. H. TIMMINS, JR. at Dallas
he was declining prosecution with respect to MEHARG making false statements and impersonating a U. S. Secret Service agent because he did not believe the
The other Bo Click.:
https://www.findagrave.com/memorial/20304274
Corp Travy Delano ?Bo? Click
BIRTH 31 Aug 1933
Fort Worth, Tarrant County, Texas, USA
DEATH 12 Mar 1967 (aged 33)
Springfield, Greene County, Missouri, USA
BURIAL
Sowers Cemetery
Irving, Dallas County, Texas, USA
Walt, I do not make this stuff up. i attempt to seperate what can be proven, vs the more unanchored, speculative approach you
and many others seem to devote yourselves to. You spin your wheels. They smoke. The smoke clears, you spin them again.
I post to share what I find and I understand I am posting for a small audience.
-
Oh!....and Walt, one other "thing". Chalked up to a child custody spat... Meharg and his ex, Mildred A Click Miller had divorced
more than ten years before, but Meharg definitely did not want his ex taking his kids to live in Atlanta after she married
David Leon Miller shortly before 11/22/63. Meharg did not only call Mrs. Treon.....
https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=10672&relPageId=57&search=meharg_and%20green
(http://jfkdebate.com/images/OswaldMillerMehargChevyWagon.jpg)
-
Two hours long presentation by Dr. Grover Proctor on "the Raleigh Call"
https://educationforum.ipbhost.com/topic/28717-the-raleigh-phone-call-an-examination-of-the-call-slip-factoid/?do=findComment&comment=488463
Greg Doudna January 27, 2023
"...My person of interest is a John B. Hurt, a somewhat now-famous brilliant cryptographer and Japanese language specialist although he never was in Japan, one of the top technically brilliant persons in the National Security Agency (NSA). Jim Root (who first suggested interest in this name) looked into his background extensively including archival research, I to a much lesser extent. There is no known contact or known mechanism for contact between John B. Hurt and Oswald. Nor from what I have read was John B. Hurt involved in covert operations or the things Oswald was involved in. The impression is John B. Hurt was introverted, a sort of brilliant geek type who worked quietly in the office and cracked enemy codes. If it were only the name alone it would not be much. But...
there is a "Raleigh" connection. Family roots of John B. Hurt from and plenty of relatives in Raleigh County, West Virginia. Next state over and not Raleigh, North Carolina. Could be coincidence.
he was married to Anna Drittelle, who was a famous cellist. An alias of Oswald used only one known time, on the handwritten order for the revolver, was "D.F. Drittal". Highly uncommon last name. Sounds like the last name of John B. Hurt's wife. Could be coincidence.
Anna Drittelle, the famous concert cellist, was from Russia and reportedly spoke fluent Russian. Oswald was in Russia and spoke Russian, and loved classical music of the kind for which Russian-born cellist Anna Drittelle was famous in the 1950s and 1960s. Check and check and check, raising the question whether Anna Drittelle would have been known by name to Oswald, and if there was ever contact. .."
https://educationforum.ipbhost.com/topic/15502-greg-parker-and-jim-root-this-ones-for-you/#comment-184127
Tom Scully February 21, 2010
"..Greg and Jim, IMO this is a poster child for my increasingly strong (against my will) argument that this case will never be solved. What are the chances of all this happening coincidentally, yet here it all is.:
1.) A US, G-2 linguist, a master of the Japanese language named John Hurt marries a Russian immigrant, Ana Drittel, a performing, NY cellist.
2.) Lee H. Oswald serves in the USMC, partly in Japan, leaves the service, defects to Russia, marries a Russian woman and returns to the US. He becomes fluent in the Russian language and has some knowledge of Japanese.
3.) At the end of 1962, Oswald attends a Dallas social gathering of primarily Russian emigres with his wife. He becomes preoccupied in conversation with a young, attractive Japanese woman, a musician who is escorted by a Russian-German who is first cellist in the Dallas Symphony. Oswald's interaction seems totally out of character for him, and later it is related that Oswald's wife suspects he is involved with the Japanese womand and that she is a spy.
4.) Eleven months later, the FBI obtains a mail order record of an order for a pistol purchase, and they claim that Oswald sent this order and received the pistol via his Dallas P.O. box. The witness signature on this mailorder is signed D.E. or D.F. Drittal..."
https://www.jfkassassinationforum.com/index.php/topic,2226.msg68744.html#msg68744
"So, we know for certain Oswald was an LN accused in 1977 in the HSCA investigation attempting to place a call to one John Hurt from the Dallas city jail on the night before Ruby gunned him down in the basement of the same building.
My own opinion about this is not much of an issue. Suprisingly, I am working from WR and HSCA named leads, John Hurt & Lev Aronson and the names on the alleged Tippit murder weapon purchase coupon names, Drittal and Hidell.
Here, John Hurt's wife, a solo cellist, name spelled here remarkably similarly to the last name of the person "vouching for Hidell" in 1963, is reported performing in NYC in the same week in Nov., 1940 as Piatigorsky, and his 1976 obituary in
images below describes him performing in 1939 at same NYC Town Hall location as Ana Drittel.
(http://jfkforum.com/images/OswaldHurtDrittelAronsonTeacherPiatigorsky.jpg)
(http://jfkforum.com/images/OswaldHurtAronsonTeacherPiatigorsky.jpg)
(http://jfkforum.com/images/OswaldAronsonPiatigorskyObit1976_1of2.jpg)
.....
........
-
http://jfkfacts.org/provocative-prolific-joan-mellen/#comment-869553
.....
Ms. Mellen, according to her book, interviewed Dryer, Jr. extensively and attribute him frequently in her book. Here is his obit from 2015, one of the most unusual I?ve ever read.:
http://www.palmbeachdailynews.com/news/news/local-obituaries/joseph-dryer-iwo-jima-marine-businessman-and-adven/nkkyb/
Remarkably, Dryer, Jr. came to be testifying in 1977 about DeMohrenschildt because of a tip the HSCA received from James Kelsey Cogswell, III. Among the unusual things about Cogswell was that he was asked
by the HSCA if a photo of D.A. Phillips was the man he knew as ?Bishop,? Cogswell?s cousin, daughter
of his father?s sister, Bianca married Harry Hull during WWII, a guy DeMohrenschildt had roomed with in
D.C. at the home of then US Navy Captain Paul Joaquin, Cogswell lived a mile from Harold Ober?s house in
Scarsdale and Ober was F. Scott Fitzgerald?s only literary agent, and Cogswell in 1943 married Fitzgerald?s close friend, Cornelius Van Ness?s daughter, Nancy, and Ober?s son, CIA agent and Angelton asst. Richard Ober, Cogswell and Katzenbach all attended Phillips Exeter Academy at exactly the same time.
For more info, see.:
http://educationforum.ipbhost.com/index.php?showtopic=19085&p=251713
Cogswell?s best man (1953 wedding to Joan Farish), George O. Walbridge II, is pictured with his boss Lem Billings in Havana in !955, with Carlos Prio?s former PR
flack. Both men worked for Francis McAdoo, brother of DeMohrenschildt?s aunt by marriage, Nona McAdoo.
Pardon me, but I?ve got a knack for detail and someone should be doing this.
On other threads, I've posted recent related curiousities I've stumbled upon.
https://educationforum.ipbhost.com/topic/17688-lem-billings-george-de-mohrenschildt-lee-harvey-oswald/?do=findComment&comment=225401
Tom Scully May 12, 2011
"De Mohrenschildt rented a room in Washington, DC in May, 1942, from a US Navy officer named Paul Joachim who was the stepson of the designer of the Underwood Code Machine, aka, the kata-kana typewriter. Joachim retired from the navy in 1954 at the rank of rear admiral, pursued his life long passion for art, and was killed in Chicago in 1962 in a still unsolved murder by multiple gunshots.
Another naval officer was living at Joachim's house in May, 1942. His name was Harry Hull, he was a WWII submarine commander, retired from the navy with the rank of rear admiral, and was married from 1939 until his death, to a first cousin of James Kelsey Cogswell, III. Hull's mother was widowed in 1920 and married again in 1925 to a man whose brother became a four star US Navy admiral.
In 1953, James Kelsey Cogswell, III married the first cousin of Bush's best friend, Will Farish III. At his wedding ceremony with Joan Farish, Cogswell's best man was WWII US Navy, PT boat Squadron 7 radar officer and silver star medalist, George Olin Walbridge, 2d.
Walbridge served in Squadron 7 in New Guineau during WWII with PT-129 navy officer and fellow silver star medalist, Francis H. McAdoo, Jr., Lt. (jg) USNR.
McAdoo was the nephew of Ferdinand De Mohrenschildt's widow, Nona McAdoo, the sister of Francis H. McAdoo, Jr's father.
New York Times - Mar 26, 1939
...Mr. McAdoo had Arthur Pew Gorman of Stevenson, Md., for his best man, and the ushers were K. Lemoyn Billings and Robert Bell Deford Jr. of Baltimore,...
"..Mr. McAdoo is a grandson of former United States Senator William Gib bs McAdoo of California and, on the maternal side, of Mrs. Isaac E. Emers on of Baltimore. He went to St. Paul's School at Concord, N. H., and w as a member of the calss of '38 at Princeton University...."
In addition to being Lem Billings's close friend from Princeton University, this newly emerged, American relative of George De Mohrenschildt, became president of Emerson Drug Co. and appointed Billings as V.P. Francis H. McAdoo, Jr's WWII fellow navy PT boat officer, George O. Walbridge, 2d, was hired as an Emerson Drug Co. marketing executive and worked for the company until his retirement. The first link in this post contains a photo of Billings and Walbridge in Cuba in 1955. The post immediately before the linked post displays details of James aka Jake, aka Jack Cogswell's relationship with AMRAZZ-1, aka Joaquin Godoy.
Elmer H. Bobst's Warner-Lambert acquired Emerson Drug Co. in 1953, and Billings left the company in 1958. McAdoo stayed on.
Isn't it at all curious that Lem Billings relationships with two PT boat winners of silver star medals for heroic combat performances in the Pacific theater during WWII was never reported by the press, before or after JFK's assassination, or by the WC or HSCA, or by Lem Billings, himself?
http://www.jfklibrary.org/Asset-Viewer/Archives/KLBPP.aspx "
https://www.marshallfoundation.org/articles-and-features/breaking-purple-in-william-friedmans-own-words/
September 23, 2020
"Breaking “Purple” in William Friedman’s own words
In late 1938, a decoded Japanese message indicated that in February 1939, the current “A” encryption would no longer be used, but would switch to the new “B” encryption.
Japanese diplomatic messages had been decoded and read from the “A” encryption for several years, so the switch was at first worrisome, and then problematic, for Maj. Gen. Joseph Mauborgne, the U.S. Army Chief Signal Officer. None of his team was able to decode the new “B” messages, so he called an old friend he’d first met in World War I, and who was working in the Signals Intelligence Service, codebreaker William Friedman..."
(https://www.marshallfoundation.org/wp-content/uploads/2020/09/F-050_large-e1600896736110.jpg)
The Signals Intelligence Service in 1935 Seated: Mrs. Louise Newkirk Nelson; Standing, left to right: Mr. H.F. Bearce (later Lieutenant Colonel), Dr. Solomon Kullback (WWII Colonel), Captain Harrod G Miller, Mr. William F. Friedman, Dr. A. Sinkov (WWII Colonel), Lieutenant L.T. Jones, USCG, and Mr. Frank B. Rowlett. Mr. John B. Hurt was ill when the picture was taken
https://educationforum.ipbhost.com/topic/17374-what-is-a-break-through-thread-or-post-is-this-one/?do=findComment&comment=220402
Tom Scully February 28, 2011
Quote
http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:1efcipXi_U0J:www.aarclibrary.org/publib/jfk/hsca/reportvols/vol12/pdf/HSCA_Vol12_deMohren.pdf+de+mohrenschildt+occupants+of+the+house+were+lt.+cdr.+harry+hull&cd=4&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=us&source=www.google.com
HSCA Volume XII: George de Mohrenschildt
VI. DE MOHRENscnnDT MILITARY OoNNEcTIONs
(80) In addition to being present with Clemard Joseph Charles at a
meeting in Washington, D.C., in May 1963 with a member of the Army
Chief of Staff for Intelligence Office, George de Mohrenschildt had
other personal associations with military personnel.
(81) An FBI memorandum dated September 15, 1942, stated that
at that time de Mohrenschildt lived at 3022 Benton Street NW., in
Washington, D.C., with Quinton Keynes, whom the memorandum
described as a member of British intelligence, and two American
naval officers.(207) The memorandum also stated that de Mohren-
schildt was allegedly "very pro-Nazi." (208)
(82) In October 1942 the FBI interviewed the man who rented the
Benton Street house, Paul Joachim. Joachim told the FBI that he
was employed at the time in the Navy building. (209) The other occu-
pants of the house were Lt. Cdr. Harry Hull of the U.S. Navy, and
Quinton Quines, who Joachim said worked at the British Em-
bassy. (210) Joachim said de Mohrenschildt lived at the house during
the end of May and all of June 1942. (211) He said de Mohrenschildt
never made any statements about feelings toward any country, and no
statements which were pro-Nazi . (212)
Quote
http://www.google.com/search?q=the+gunman+leaned+over+the+victim,+shot+him+again&tbs=nws:1,ar:1&source=newspapers
RETIRED ADMIRAL SLAIN IN CHICAGO; Paul Joachim Is Shot by...
- New York Times - Oct 23, 1962
The gunman leaned over the victim, shot . him .again, and then searched: his ' pockets. He started away liut returned. and ',;the.victim s pockets a second time . Then he fired a Fourth bullet into the victim's body and ran into a nearby
Retired Us Navy Officer Gunned To Death... - Schenectady Gazette
Retired Admiral Slain At Chicago . - Lewiston Morning Tribune
GUNMAN KILLS NAVY OFFICER - The Sun (Pay-Per-View)
Toledo Blade
all 11 news articles »
http://www.google.com/#hl=en&safe=off&q=charles%20a%20joerissen&psj=1&um=1&ie=UTF-8&tbo=u&tbs=bks:1&source=og&sa=N&tab=wp&psj=1&bav=on.1,or.&fp=3f40f95b1b9c7c0d
Betrayal at Pearl Harbor: how Churchill lured Roosevelt into World ...
James Rusbridger, Eric Nave - 1991 - 302 pages - Snippet view
... called a special code machine.33 On 26 November 1924, he sent details to John T. Underwood of the Underwood Typewriter Company, who examined Safford's specifications with his chief designer, Charles A. Joerissen. ..."
https://gizmodo.com/how-the-u-s-cracked-japans-purple-encryption-machine-458385664
"The Purple Machine was made up of two typewriters as well as an electrical rotor system with a 25 character alphabetic switchboard. Like the Enigma Machine, the first typewriter was the method in which the plaintext, or unencrypted message, could be manually inputted. The typewriter was built to be compatible with English, Romaji, and Roman, adding a level of mystery through language choice.
But unlike the Enigma Machine, which presented the text in the form of blinking lights, Purple used a second electric typewriter, which would type the cipher text, or encrypted message, onto a piece of paper. This was a huge advancement to the Enigma Machine, which would require two people to operate (one typing and one to record the projections) because it only required one person to operate and would reduce human errors. The only drawback to this was in the increased size and weight of the Purple Machine, which rendered it unsuitable for use in combat locations."
-
On other threads, I've posted recent related curiousities I've stumbled upon.
https://educationforum.ipbhost.com/topic/17688-lem-billings-george-de-mohrenschildt-lee-harvey-oswald/?do=findComment&comment=225401
Tom Scully May 12, 2011
"De Mohrenschildt rented a room in Washington, DC in May, 1942, from a US Navy officer named Paul Joachim who was the stepson of the designer of the Underwood Code Machine, aka, the kata-kana typewriter. Joachim retired from the navy in 1954 at the rank of rear admiral, pursued his life long passion for art, and was killed in Chicago in 1962 in a still unsolved murder by multiple gunshots.
Another naval officer was living at Joachim's house in May, 1942. His name was Harry Hull, he was a WWII submarine commander, retired from the navy with the rank of rear admiral, and was married from 1939 until his death, to a first cousin of James Kelsey Cogswell, III. Hull's mother was widowed in 1920 and married again in 1925 to a man whose brother became a four star US Navy admiral.
In 1953, James Kelsey Cogswell, III married the first cousin of Bush's best friend, Will Farish III. At his wedding ceremony with Joan Farish, Cogswell's best man was WWII US Navy, PT boat Squadron 7 radar officer and silver star medalist, George Olin Walbridge, 2d.
Walbridge served in Squadron 7 in New Guineau during WWII with PT-129 navy officer and fellow silver star medalist, Francis H. McAdoo, Jr., Lt. (jg) USNR.
McAdoo was the nephew of Ferdinand De Mohrenschildt's widow, Nona McAdoo, the sister of Francis H. McAdoo, Jr's father.
New York Times - Mar 26, 1939
...Mr. McAdoo had Arthur Pew Gorman of Stevenson, Md., for his best man, and the ushers were K. Lemoyn Billings and Robert Bell Deford Jr. of Baltimore,...
"..Mr. McAdoo is a grandson of former United States Senator William Gib bs McAdoo of California and, on the maternal side, of Mrs. Isaac E. Emers on of Baltimore. He went to St. Paul's School at Concord, N. H., and w as a member of the calss of '38 at Princeton University...."
In addition to being Lem Billings's close friend from Princeton University, this newly emerged, American relative of George De Mohrenschildt, became president of Emerson Drug Co. and appointed Billings as V.P. Francis H. McAdoo, Jr's WWII fellow navy PT boat officer, George O. Walbridge, 2d, was hired as an Emerson Drug Co. marketing executive and worked for the company until his retirement. The first link in this post contains a photo of Billings and Walbridge in Cuba in 1955. The post immediately before the linked post displays details of James aka Jake, aka Jack Cogswell's relationship with AMRAZZ-1, aka Joaquin Godoy.
Elmer H. Bobst's Warner-Lambert acquired Emerson Drug Co. in 1953, and Billings left the company in 1958. McAdoo stayed on.
Isn't it at all curious that Lem Billings relationships with two PT boat winners of silver star medals for heroic combat performances in the Pacific theater during WWII was never reported by the press, before or after JFK's assassination, or by the WC or HSCA, or by Lem Billings, himself?
http://www.jfklibrary.org/Asset-Viewer/Archives/KLBPP.aspx "
https://www.marshallfoundation.org/articles-and-features/breaking-purple-in-william-friedmans-own-words/
September 23, 2020
"Breaking “Purple” in William Friedman’s own words
In late 1938, a decoded Japanese message indicated that in February 1939, the current “A” encryption would no longer be used, but would switch to the new “B” encryption.
Japanese diplomatic messages had been decoded and read from the “A” encryption for several years, so the switch was at first worrisome, and then problematic, for Maj. Gen. Joseph Mauborgne, the U.S. Army Chief Signal Officer. None of his team was able to decode the new “B” messages, so he called an old friend he’d first met in World War I, and who was working in the Signals Intelligence Service, codebreaker William Friedman..."
(https://www.marshallfoundation.org/wp-content/uploads/2020/09/F-050_large-e1600896736110.jpg)
The Signals Intelligence Service in 1935 Seated: Mrs. Louise Newkirk Nelson; Standing, left to right: Mr. H.F. Bearce (later Lieutenant Colonel), Dr. Solomon Kullback (WWII Colonel), Captain Harrod G Miller, Mr. William F. Friedman, Dr. A. Sinkov (WWII Colonel), Lieutenant L.T. Jones, USCG, and Mr. Frank B. Rowlett. Mr. John B. Hurt was ill when the picture was taken
https://educationforum.ipbhost.com/topic/17374-what-is-a-break-through-thread-or-post-is-this-one/?do=findComment&comment=220402
Tom Scully February 28, 2011
Quote
http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:1efcipXi_U0J:www.aarclibrary.org/publib/jfk/hsca/reportvols/vol12/pdf/HSCA_Vol12_deMohren.pdf+de+mohrenschildt+occupants+of+the+house+were+lt.+cdr.+harry+hull&cd=4&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=us&source=www.google.com
HSCA Volume XII: George de Mohrenschildt
VI. DE MOHRENscnnDT MILITARY OoNNEcTIONs
(80) In addition to being present with Clemard Joseph Charles at a
meeting in Washington, D.C., in May 1963 with a member of the Army
Chief of Staff for Intelligence Office, George de Mohrenschildt had
other personal associations with military personnel.
(81) An FBI memorandum dated September 15, 1942, stated that
at that time de Mohrenschildt lived at 3022 Benton Street NW., in
Washington, D.C., with Quinton Keynes, whom the memorandum
described as a member of British intelligence, and two American
naval officers.(207) The memorandum also stated that de Mohren-
schildt was allegedly "very pro-Nazi." (208)
(82) In October 1942 the FBI interviewed the man who rented the
Benton Street house, Paul Joachim. Joachim told the FBI that he
was employed at the time in the Navy building. (209) The other occu-
pants of the house were Lt. Cdr. Harry Hull of the U.S. Navy, and
Quinton Quines, who Joachim said worked at the British Em-
bassy. (210) Joachim said de Mohrenschildt lived at the house during
the end of May and all of June 1942. (211) He said de Mohrenschildt
never made any statements about feelings toward any country, and no
statements which were pro-Nazi . (212)
Quote
http://www.google.com/search?q=the+gunman+leaned+over+the+victim,+shot+him+again&tbs=nws:1,ar:1&source=newspapers
RETIRED ADMIRAL SLAIN IN CHICAGO; Paul Joachim Is Shot by...
- New York Times - Oct 23, 1962
The gunman leaned over the victim, shot . him .again, and then searched: his ' pockets. He started away liut returned. and ',;the.victim s pockets a second time . Then he fired a Fourth bullet into the victim's body and ran into a nearby
Retired Us Navy Officer Gunned To Death... - Schenectady Gazette
Retired Admiral Slain At Chicago . - Lewiston Morning Tribune
GUNMAN KILLS NAVY OFFICER - The Sun (Pay-Per-View)
Toledo Blade
all 11 news articles »
http://www.google.com/#hl=en&safe=off&q=charles%20a%20joerissen&psj=1&um=1&ie=UTF-8&tbo=u&tbs=bks:1&source=og&sa=N&tab=wp&psj=1&bav=on.1,or.&fp=3f40f95b1b9c7c0d
Betrayal at Pearl Harbor: how Churchill lured Roosevelt into World ...
James Rusbridger, Eric Nave - 1991 - 302 pages - Snippet view
... called a special code machine.33 On 26 November 1924, he sent details to John T. Underwood of the Underwood Typewriter Company, who examined Safford's specifications with his chief designer, Charles A. Joerissen. ..."
https://gizmodo.com/how-the-u-s-cracked-japans-purple-encryption-machine-458385664
"The Purple Machine was made up of two typewriters as well as an electrical rotor system with a 25 character alphabetic switchboard. Like the Enigma Machine, the first typewriter was the method in which the plaintext, or unencrypted message, could be manually inputted. The typewriter was built to be compatible with English, Romaji, and Roman, adding a level of mystery through language choice.
But unlike the Enigma Machine, which presented the text in the form of blinking lights, Purple used a second electric typewriter, which would type the cipher text, or encrypted message, onto a piece of paper. This was a huge advancement to the Enigma Machine, which would require two people to operate (one typing and one to record the projections) because it only required one person to operate and would reduce human errors. The only drawback to this was in the increased size and weight of the Purple Machine, which rendered it unsuitable for use in combat locations."
Nice to read all those old EF threads of yours, Tom. +