JFK Assassination Forum

General Discussion & Debate => General Discussion & Debate => Topic started by: Mike Orr on May 02, 2018, 04:46:13 AM

Title: Bullet hole in windshield on JFK's Limo
Post by: Mike Orr on May 02, 2018, 04:46:13 AM
    Medical student Evalea Glanges: "There was a bullet hole in the windshield", a through and through bullet hole from front to back .

    Dallas motorcycle patrolmen Stavis Ellis and H. R. Freeman both observed a penetrating bullet hole in the limousine windshield at Parkland Hospital. Ellis told interviewer Gil Toff in 1971: " There was a hole in the left front windshield ... You could put a pencil through it. Freeman corroborated this, saying: "[I was] right beside it. I could have touched it ... It was a bullet hole .
Title: Re: Bullet hole in windshield on JFK's Limo
Post by: Matt Grantham on May 02, 2018, 06:23:35 PM
Secret Service Agent Charles Taylor, Jr.

Wrote a report on November 27, 1963 in which he detailed his activities providing security for the limousine immediately after the car?s return to Washington following the assassination. The JFK limousine and the Secret Service follow-up car known as the ?Queen Mary? arrived at Andrews AFB aboard a C-130 propeller-driven cargo plane at about 8:00 PM on November 22, 1963. Agent Taylor rode in the Presidential limousine as it was driven from Andrews AFB to the White House garage at 22nd and M Streets, N.W. In his report about what he witnessed inside the White House garage during the vehicle?s inspection, he wrote: ?In addition, of particular note was the small hole just left of center in the windshield from which what appeared to be bullet fragments were removed.?

[David Lifton, Best Evidence.1988 Edition pp 370-371]

 Add to this Altgens 7 which shows something looking a lot like a bullet hole in the windshield you seem to have pretty solid evidence of a bullet hole Yet the WC is completely silent in regard to the windshield?
Title: Re: Bullet hole in windshield on JFK's Limo
Post by: Tim Nickerson on May 02, 2018, 06:51:07 PM
Secret Service Agent Charles Taylor, Jr.

Wrote a report on November 27, 1963 in which he detailed his activities providing security for the limousine immediately after the car?s return to Washington following the assassination. The JFK limousine and the Secret Service follow-up car known as the ?Queen Mary? arrived at Andrews AFB aboard a C-130 propeller-driven cargo plane at about 8:00 PM on November 22, 1963. Agent Taylor rode in the Presidential limousine as it was driven from Andrews AFB to the White House garage at 22nd and M Streets, N.W. In his report about what he witnessed inside the White House garage during the vehicle?s inspection, he wrote: ?In addition, of particular note was the small hole just left of center in the windshield from which what appeared to be bullet fragments were removed.?

[David Lifton, Best Evidence.1988 Edition pp 370-371]

 Add to this Altgens 7 which shows something looking a lot like a bullet hole in the windshield you seem to have pretty solid evidence of a bullet hole Yet the WC is completely silent in regard to the windshield?

(https://i.imgur.com/95E5UdW.png)
Title: Re: Bullet hole in windshield on JFK's Limo
Post by: Matt Grantham on May 02, 2018, 07:35:23 PM
 I assume whatever Taylor is looking at in 1975 is not the entire windshield Do we have a chain of custody from Dallas 63 to 76?
Title: Re: Bullet hole in windshield on JFK's Limo
Post by: Jack Trojan on May 02, 2018, 07:38:18 PM
(https://i.imgur.com/95E5UdW.png)

Here is the "hole" in CE 351, the removed windshield is archived here https://catalog.archives.gov/id/305143 (https://catalog.archives.gov/id/305143).
(http://www.readclip.com/images/33-3424a.gif)

Considering what the SS and the FBI did to scrub the limo of evidence, we don't have a clue what this windshield represents. Why remove it in the 1st place? Wasn't everything they did to the limo non-standard forensic protocol and tampering with evidence?
Title: Re: Bullet hole in windshield on JFK's Limo
Post by: Matt Grantham on May 02, 2018, 07:48:47 PM
 Thanks Jack It appeared to be at least a hole on whichever side the windshield is facing I assume the picture is oriented to view the outside of the windshield It is not clear whether it is through and through from that angle Did any experts ever compile reports of these holes?
Title: Re: Bullet hole in windshield on JFK's Limo
Post by: Mike Orr on May 02, 2018, 08:56:23 PM
Mr. George Whitaker, Sr., a senior manager at the Ford Motor Company's Rouge Plant in Detroit, Michigan, told attorney (and professor of criminal justice) Doug Weldon in August of 1993, in a tape recorded conversation, that after reporting to work on Monday, November 25th , he discovered the JFK limousine -- a unique, one of a kind item that he unequivocally identified -- in the Rouge Plant's B building, with the interior stripped out and in the process of being replaced, and with the windshield removed. He was then contacted by one of the Vice Presidents of the division for which he worked, and directed to report to the glass plant lab, immediately , After knocking on the locked door(which he found most unusual), he was let in by two of his subordinates and discovered that they were in possession of the windshield that had been removed from the JFK limousine. They had been told to use it as a template, and to make a new windshield identical to it in shape -- and to then get the new windshield back to the B building for installation in the Presidential limousine that was quickly being rebuilt. Whitaker told Weldon ( quoting from the audiotape of the 1993 interview): "And the windshield had a bullet hole in it, coming from the outside through...it was a good , clean bullet hole, right straight through, from the front. And you can tell, when the bullet hits the windshield, like when you hit a rock or something, what happens> The back chips out and the front may just have a pinhole in it...this had a clean round hole in the front and fragmentation coming out the back." Whitaker told Weldon that he eventually became superintendent of his division and was placed in charge of five plant divisions. He also told Weldon that the original windshield, with the bullet hole in it, had been broken up and scrapped---as ordered ---after the new windshield had been made. After George Whitakers death in 2001, his family released his written testament to Nigel Turner, who with their permission revealed Mr. Whitaker's name , as well as the text of his "memo for history," in episode 7 of " The Men Who Killed Kennedy ", " The Smoking Guns "

https://www.lewrockwell.com/2012/06/douglas-p-horne-/photographic-evidence-of-bullet-hole-in-jfk-limousine
Title: Re: Bullet hole in windshield on JFK's Limo
Post by: Bernd Werner on May 02, 2018, 09:48:12 PM
    Medical student Evalea Glanges: "There was a bullet hole in the windshield", a through and through bullet hole from front to back .

    Dallas motorcycle patrolmen Stavis Ellis and H. R. Freeman both observed a penetrating bullet hole in the limousine windshield at Parkland Hospital. Ellis told interviewer Gil Toff in 1971: " There was a hole in the left front windshield ... You could put a pencil through it. Freeman corroborated this, saying: "[I was] right beside it. I could have touched it ... It was a bullet hole .

Is there any credible chain of possession for this windshield?
Title: Re: Bullet hole in windshield on JFK's Limo
Post by: Matt Grantham on May 02, 2018, 10:44:27 PM
 So if was indeed a bullet that came from the front I assume it would have come from the overpass if it hit JFK?
Title: Re: Bullet hole in windshield on JFK's Limo
Post by: John Iacoletti on May 02, 2018, 11:29:34 PM
I assume whatever Taylor is looking at in 1975 is not the entire windshield Do we have a chain of custody from Dallas 63 to 76?

I'm sure they pinkie-swore that it was the same windshield.
Title: Re: Bullet hole in windshield on JFK's Limo
Post by: Jack Trojan on May 02, 2018, 11:41:31 PM
So if was indeed a bullet that came from the front I assume it would have come from the overpass if it hit JFK?

If the head shot came from the front...

(http://www.readclip.com/JFK/TrainOverpassTurkeyShoot.jpg)
Title: Re: Bullet hole in windshield on JFK's Limo
Post by: Jack Trojan on May 03, 2018, 12:58:42 AM
I'm sure they pinkie-swore that it was the same windshield.

As they inexplicably removed it from the limo.
Title: Re: Bullet hole in windshield on JFK's Limo
Post by: Matt Grantham on May 03, 2018, 05:52:41 PM
Numerous witnesses saw a hole in the windshield. I have covered this in my "Statements That Sink The WC's Conclusions" and it will be reposted later on.

Conversely, and equally important, neither Kellerman or Greer saw a crack in the windshield as the WC claimed on November 22, 1963, and they were both sitting in the front seats of the limousine!

 Good to know, but lots of folks do not have a lot of confidence in those two being objective.
Title: Re: Bullet hole in windshield on JFK's Limo
Post by: Gary Craig on May 03, 2018, 10:02:02 PM
Photo Set: NARA Evidence Photos: Windshield
https://www.maryferrell.org/photos.html?set=NARA-WINDSHIELD
(http://i959.photobucket.com/albums/ae75/garcra/Photo_naraevid_Windshield-1.jpg)
(http://i959.photobucket.com/albums/ae75/garcra/Photo_naraevid_Windshield-2.jpg)
(http://i959.photobucket.com/albums/ae75/garcra/Photo_naraevid_Windshield-3_1.jpg)
(http://i959.photobucket.com/albums/ae75/garcra/Photo_naraevid_Windshield-4.jpg)
Title: Re: Bullet hole in windshield on JFK's Limo
Post by: Gary Craig on May 03, 2018, 10:04:58 PM
Photo Set: NARA Evidence Photos: Windshield
https://www.maryferrell.org/photos.html?set=NARA-WINDSHIELD
(http://i959.photobucket.com/albums/ae75/garcra/Photo_naraevid_Windshield-5.jpg)
(http://i959.photobucket.com/albums/ae75/garcra/Photo_naraevid_Windshield-6.jpg)
(http://i959.photobucket.com/albums/ae75/garcra/Photo_naraevid_Windshield-7.jpg)
(http://i959.photobucket.com/albums/ae75/garcra/Photo_naraevid_Windshield-8.jpg)
Title: Re: Bullet hole in windshield on JFK's Limo
Post by: Gary Craig on May 03, 2018, 10:10:19 PM
(http://i959.photobucket.com/albums/ae75/garcra/window-1_ce350.jpg)
(http://i959.photobucket.com/albums/ae75/garcra/window-2_ce350.jpg)
(http://i959.photobucket.com/albums/ae75/garcra/moulding0012.jpg)
(http://i959.photobucket.com/albums/ae75/garcra/bagevidence0022.jpg)
Title: Re: Bullet hole in windshield on JFK's Limo
Post by: Mike Orr on May 03, 2018, 10:24:26 PM
As per  Reply #6 on this topic     " Re: Bullet hole in windshield on JFK's Limo "

Mr. George Whitaker said that the original windshield , with the bullet hole in it , had been broken up and scrapped---as ordered---after the new windshield had been made.
Title: Re: Bullet hole in windshield on JFK's Limo
Post by: Jack Trojan on May 04, 2018, 02:08:20 AM
As per  Reply #6 on this topic     " Re: Bullet hole in windshield on JFK's Limo "

Mr. George Whitaker said that the original windshield , with the bullet hole in it , had been broken up and scrapped---as ordered---after the new windshield had been made.

Who ordered that?
Title: Re: Bullet hole in windshield on JFK's Limo
Post by: Matt Grantham on May 04, 2018, 03:35:30 AM
Who ordered that?

 Jack The short answer is Whitaker's superiors at the Ford Motor Company The link below provides some interesting material on how one of episodes of The Men Who Killed Kennedy, presented by the History channel was pulled after it's first airing, and how Bill Moyer's and others, insisted the episode be removed and apparently some of the footage regarding the window is no longer available to the public It always just becomes a bigger and bigger outrage

https://www.lewrockwell.com/2012/06/douglas-p-horne/photographic-evidence-of-bullet-hole-in-jfk-limousine-windshield-hiding-in-plain-sight/
Title: Re: Bullet hole in windshield on JFK's Limo
Post by: Mike Orr on May 05, 2018, 05:06:57 AM
    This is another one of those eye witness situations where some people see a through and through bullet hole in the JFK limo windshield and then they pretend to have the real windshield on display that shows that there is nothing but a cracked windshield , so all the eye witnesses are told that they are wrong about what they saw . That's why Trump is waiting another 3&1/2 years to release the last of the JFK files and of course hope that some of the people whose names might appear on those files will be dead and of course Trump will be out of office by then so it will be up to the next President to release the files or to hold them a bit longer just in case the people who haven't died in the next 3&1/2 years ,will then get another couple of years until they do pass on. National Security is a BS shield to hide behind making it sound like something really, really bad is going to happen if these documents are released . Like Jim Marrs said , " We already know what happened " !
Title: Re: Bullet hole in windshield on JFK's Limo
Post by: Tim Nickerson on May 05, 2018, 05:14:05 AM
Jack The short answer is Whitaker's superiors at the Ford Motor Company The link below provides some interesting material on how one of episodes of The Men Who Killed Kennedy, presented by the History channel was pulled after it's first airing, and how Bill Moyer's and others, insisted the episode be removed and apparently some of the footage regarding the window is no longer available to the public It always just becomes a bigger and bigger outrage

https://www.lewrockwell.com/2012/06/douglas-p-horne/photographic-evidence-of-bullet-hole-in-jfk-limousine-windshield-hiding-in-plain-sight/

Doug Horne/Lew Rockwell article ? Whitaker
https://ss100x.wordpress.com/tag/whitaker/

"This story is patently ridiculous. SS100X had a stock LCC windshield. It could have been replaced anywhere, including at Love Field when it sat on the tarmac in the AF C-130 for over two hours. In addition, there is no evidence of any nature to indicate that Whitaker ever saw the limo (as he describes it so inaccurately) or that the limo had any connection to the Rouge. It then goes without saying that nothing Whitaker says about the windshield has any significance. How a reasoning person can fall for such illogical statements as these, I have no clue. But, every so often, another unsuspecting newbie comes by and gets tripped up by this disinfo. Then they tend to go around in circles huffing and puffing when asked to provide even a shred of documentation for any of Whitaker?s claims."
Title: Re: Bullet hole in windshield on JFK's Limo
Post by: Matt Grantham on May 05, 2018, 03:59:03 PM
Doug Horne/Lew Rockwell article ? Whitaker
https://ss100x.wordpress.com/tag/whitaker/

"This story is patently ridiculous. SS100X had a stock LCC windshield. It could have been replaced anywhere, including at Love Field when it sat on the tarmac in the AF C-130 for over two hours. In addition, there is no evidence of any nature to indicate that Whitaker ever saw the limo (as he describes it so inaccurately) or that the limo had any connection to the Rouge. It then goes without saying that nothing Whitaker says about the windshield has any significance. How a reasoning person can fall for such illogical statements as these, I have no clue. But, every so often, another unsuspecting newbie comes by and gets tripped up by this disinfo. Then they tend to go around in circles huffing and puffing when asked to provide even a shred of documentation for any of Whitaker?s claims."

 Whittakers an afterthought We already have reliable witnesses who saw a through and through hole There is no chain of custody on the window, know verifiable report on the windshield early on in the investigation, and the cracking looks much different in the later photographs from the interior looking out Even with the through and through hole there is enough damage to call into question whether you are running out of fragments to explain the damage that is shown in the original photographs
Title: Re: Bullet hole in windshield on JFK's Limo
Post by: Tim Nickerson on May 06, 2018, 12:45:23 AM
Whittakers an afterthought We already have reliable witnesses who saw a through and through hole There is no chain of custody on the window, know verifiable report on the windshield early on in the investigation, and the cracking looks much different in the later photographs from the interior looking out Even with the through and through hole there is enough damage to call into question whether you are running out of fragments to explain the damage that is shown in the original photographs

What do you mean by "no chain of custody on the window"?

Quote
know verifiable report on the windshield early on in the investigation

From FBI Agent Robert Frazier:

(https://i.imgur.com/zQeZT2G.png)

Title: Re: Bullet hole in windshield on JFK's Limo
Post by: Matt Grantham on May 06, 2018, 12:50:31 AM
What do you mean by "no chain of custody on the window"?

From FBI Agent Robert Frazier:

(https://i.imgur.com/zQeZT2G.png)

 I asked the chain of custody question earlier, so I should have stated no chain of custody that anyone here has so far provided. I should have stated that differently
Title: Re: Bullet hole in windshield on JFK's Limo
Post by: Tim Nickerson on May 06, 2018, 12:55:03 AM
I asked the chain of custody question earlier, so I should have stated no chain of custody that anyone here has so far provided. I should have stated that differently

It still not clear what you mean by chain of custody though. What would constitute as a chain of custody. Is there a timeframe that you have in mind? And what would be the purpose of said chain of custody of the windshield?
Title: Re: Bullet hole in windshield on JFK's Limo
Post by: Matt Grantham on May 06, 2018, 01:07:22 AM
It still not clear what you mean by chain of custody though. What would constitute as a chain of custody. Is there a timeframe that you have in mind? And what would be the purpose of said chain of custody of the windshield?

 Same importance as it had for other evidence such as CE 399
Title: Re: Bullet hole in windshield on JFK's Limo
Post by: Tim Nickerson on May 06, 2018, 01:10:08 AM
Same importance as it had for other evidence such as CE 399

Which was what exactly?
Title: Re: Bullet hole in windshield on JFK's Limo
Post by: Matt Grantham on May 06, 2018, 01:17:43 AM
Which was what exactly?

 Who was responsible for the possession and integrity of evidence
Title: Re: Bullet hole in windshield on JFK's Limo
Post by: Tim Nickerson on May 06, 2018, 01:27:14 AM
Who was responsible for the possession and integrity of evidence

That doesn't answer my question. What exactly was the importance of maintaining an intact chain of custody of the windshield? I believe that I've shown you before a chain of custody of CE-399. Have I not? Would you like to see it again? I don't know if a similarly intact one is available for the windshield or not. I'll look.
Title: Re: Bullet hole in windshield on JFK's Limo
Post by: Jack Trojan on May 06, 2018, 01:58:10 AM
That doesn't answer my question. What exactly was the importance of maintaining an intact chain of custody of the windshield? I believe that I've shown you before a chain of custody of CE-399. Have I not? Would you like to see it again? I don't know if a similarly intact one is available for the windshield or not. I'll look.

Why was the windshield removed in the 1st place? Wasn't it crucial crime scene evidence that should have been left in situ? Aren't you supposed to preserve evidence instead of obliterate or tamper with it in any way? And didn't the SS and FBI know any of this before they tampered with it? Of course they did. No one would be that incompetent, unless...
Title: Re: Bullet hole in windshield on JFK's Limo
Post by: Matt Grantham on May 06, 2018, 01:59:37 AM
That doesn't answer my question. What exactly was the importance of maintaining an intact chain of custody of the windshield? I believe that I've shown you before a chain of custody of CE-399. Have I not? Would you like to see it again? I don't know if a similarly intact one is available for the windshield or not. I'll look.

 No need to redo CE399 Thanks for being willing to take a look Also the question remains of the three separate defects on the windshield and window frame and rear view mirror Has anyone done an analysis of what he estimated size of these fragments would need to have been to create said damage? Not saying you have special responsibility to know but to me at least it would seem like a logical calculation to see if the head-shot was capable of all it needed to be responsible for If I recall correctly the four fragments from the head of JFK took up at least three fifths of its mass
Title: Re: Bullet hole in windshield on JFK's Limo
Post by: Tim Nickerson on May 06, 2018, 02:05:07 AM
Why was the windshield removed in the 1st place? Wasn't it crucial crime scene evidence that should have been left in situ? Aren't you supposed to preserve evidence instead of obliterate or tamper with it in any way? And didn't the SS and FBI know any of this before they tampered with it? Of course they did. No one would be that incompetent, unless...

The windshield was removed because they wanted the limo to be put back into service. It was preserved long enough. It was thoroughly examined. Measurements and photographs were taken of it. It remained essentially unaltered except for the addition of some cracks to it during its  removal on Nov 26. There was never a hole in it.
Title: Re: Bullet hole in windshield on JFK's Limo
Post by: Tim Nickerson on May 06, 2018, 02:07:56 AM
No need to redo CE399 Thanks for being willing to take a look Also the question remains of the three separate defects on the windshield and window frame and rear view mirror Has anyone done an analysis of what he estimated size of these fragments would need to have been to create said damage? Not saying you have special responsibility to know but to me at least it would seem like a logical calculation to see if the head-shot was capable of all it needed to be responsible for If I recall correctly the four fragments from the head of JFK took up at least three fifths of its mass

How would one go about doing an analysis on what the size of the fragments would need to have been to create the damage to the windshield and chrome piece?

http://ss100x.com/ferg1.gif
Title: Re: Bullet hole in windshield on JFK's Limo
Post by: Matt Grantham on May 06, 2018, 02:31:01 PM
How would one go about doing an analysis on what the size of the fragments would need to have been to create the damage to the windshield and chrome piece?

http://ss100x.com/ferg1.gif
  Science just halts in this area? Hard to count the ways you could approach the problem If it was impossible then where the testimony saying it was impossible

So if they/you cannot even give ballpark estimates of what hit then we might as well conclude a whole bullet hit the frame.
Title: Re: Bullet hole in windshield on JFK's Limo
Post by: Matt Grantham on May 06, 2018, 03:00:34 PM
. There was never a hole in it.

 How do you know that?
Title: Re: Bullet hole in windshield on JFK's Limo
Post by: Gary Craig on May 06, 2018, 03:05:12 PM
The windshield was removed because they wanted the limo to be put back into service. It was preserved long enough. It was thoroughly examined. Measurements and photographs were taken of it. It remained essentially unaltered except for the addition of some cracks to it during its  removal on Nov 26. There was never a hole in it.

"The windshield was removed because 'they' wanted the limo to be put back into service."

LOL
Title: Re: Bullet hole in windshield on JFK's Limo
Post by: Matt Grantham on May 06, 2018, 03:10:31 PM
 Rob I found this particularly interesting Thanks

Henry Wade and Chief Curry give the following advice: "Do not release the body until the missile is taken into custody."  This comment has given researchers much dilemma over the years, as they are not sure what "missile" they could be talking about as the CE-399 bullet is NOT found until 1:45 p.m. How did Wade and Curry know a bullet would be found?
Title: Re: Bullet hole in windshield on JFK's Limo
Post by: Jack Trojan on May 06, 2018, 06:55:56 PM
The windshield was removed because they wanted the limo to be put back into service. It was preserved long enough. It was thoroughly examined. Measurements and photographs were taken of it. It remained essentially unaltered except for the addition of some cracks to it during its  removal on Nov 26. There was never a hole in it.

Get the limo back in service??? Tight budget? HA!
Title: Re: Bullet hole in windshield on JFK's Limo
Post by: Howard Gee on May 06, 2018, 08:11:06 PM
OK CTs, let's say there was a bullet hole in the windshield.

I guess that means we have more altered/falsified/faked photos to expose.

It also means that the windshield assassin would probably be located somewhere atop the underpass or in that vicinity. Yet to my knowledge none was seen.

It also means that glass shards would be expected to be showered into the limo and upon it's occupants. I don't believe any glass shards were reported.

It also means that CTs should be prepared to attempt to explain what happened to the bullet that passed through the windshield.
Title: Re: Bullet hole in windshield on JFK's Limo
Post by: Matt Grantham on May 06, 2018, 10:06:18 PM
OK CTs, let's say there was a bullet hole in the windshield.

I guess that means we have more altered/falsified/faked photos to expose.

It also means that the windshield assassin would probably be located somewhere atop the underpass or in that vicinity. Yet to my knowledge none was seen.

It also means that glass shards would be expected to be showered into the limo and upon it's occupants. I don't believe any glass shards were reported.

It also means that CTs should be prepared to attempt to explain what happened to the bullet that passed through the windshield.

 The only glass be sprayed would be from the pencil sized diameter of the hole . As for extra bullets not a problem
Title: Re: Bullet hole in windshield on JFK's Limo
Post by: Tim Nickerson on May 07, 2018, 07:18:09 AM
How do you know that?

Because of the evidence that I and others have presented here. The windshield exists this very day in the National Archives and photos of it reveal no hole in it. FBI agent Robert Frazier noted on a diagram of the limo that he drew in the early morning hours of Nov 23 that there were no bullet holes in the limo.

(https://i.imgur.com/zQeZT2G.png)


At about 10 AM that same morning, F. Vaughn Ferguson of the Ford Motor Company examined the windshield and on December 18 wrote: "Examination of the windshield disclosed no perforation"

http://ss100x.com/ferg1.gif
Title: Re: Bullet hole in windshield on JFK's Limo
Post by: Matt Grantham on May 07, 2018, 09:00:00 AM
 To know is not to believe
Title: Re: Bullet hole in windshield on JFK's Limo
Post by: Mike Orr on May 09, 2018, 06:43:30 PM
So everyone who saw the hole in the windshield , were lying about it !
Title: Re: Bullet hole in windshield on JFK's Limo
Post by: Chris Bristow on May 10, 2018, 04:11:15 AM
If the windshield hole in Altgens 6 is real then the trajectory traces back to the SouthWest corner of the plaza,  Just under the overpass at Commerce St. Using a 4 degree margin of error the edge of that 28 foot box includes the sidewalk on Commerce St. just under the overpass. That seems to the only cover. It provides a shot that would be just slightly uphill. It also means the limo is heading almost straight at the gunman when the shot happens.
Title: Re: Bullet hole in windshield on JFK's Limo
Post by: Matt Grantham on May 10, 2018, 10:11:46 PM
Because of the evidence that I and others have presented here. The windshield exists this very day in the National Archives and photos of it reveal no hole in it. FBI agent Robert Frazier noted on a diagram of the limo that he drew in the early morning hours of Nov 23 that there were no bullet holes in the limo.

(https://i.imgur.com/zQeZT2G.png)


At about 10 AM that same morning, F. Vaughn Ferguson of the Ford Motor Company examined the windshield and on December 18 wrote: "Examination of the windshield disclosed no perforation"

http://ss100x.com/ferg1.gif

  I do not even see a note of a crack/hole in the windshield at all?

 Does anyone have  a photo of the area under the overpass Chris described
Title: Re: Bullet hole in windshield on JFK's Limo
Post by: John Iacoletti on May 11, 2018, 12:52:39 AM
Doug Horne/Lew Rockwell article ? Whitaker
https://ss100x.wordpress.com/tag/whitaker/

"This story is patently ridiculous. SS100X had a stock LCC windshield. It could have been replaced anywhere, including at Love Field when it sat on the tarmac in the AF C-130 for over two hours. In addition, there is no evidence of any nature to indicate that Whitaker ever saw the limo (as he describes it so inaccurately) or that the limo had any connection to the Rouge. It then goes without saying that nothing Whitaker says about the windshield has any significance. How a reasoning person can fall for such illogical statements as these, I have no clue. But, every so often, another unsuspecting newbie comes by and gets tripped up by this disinfo. Then they tend to go around in circles huffing and puffing when asked to provide even a shred of documentation for any of Whitaker?s claims."

Yeah, they could have just called "Safelite repair, Safelite replace".   ::)

Six witnesses said there was a through and through hole, but they were all mistaken because . . .

Reasons.
Title: Re: Bullet hole in windshield on JFK's Limo
Post by: Matt Grantham on May 11, 2018, 03:34:04 AM
Because of the evidence that I and others have presented here. The windshield exists this very day in the National Archives and photos of it reveal no hole in it. FBI agent Robert Frazier noted on a diagram of the limo that he drew in the early morning hours of Nov 23 that there were no bullet holes in the limo.

(https://i.imgur.com/zQeZT2G.png)


At about 10 AM that same morning, F. Vaughn Ferguson of the Ford Motor Company examined the windshield and on December 18 wrote: "Examination of the windshield disclosed no perforation"

http://ss100x.com/ferg1.gif
[/quote I asked you if their diagram included the crack, deformity, whatever you want to call it in Altgens 7
Title: Re: Bullet hole in windshield on JFK's Limo
Post by: Matt Grantham on May 11, 2018, 03:38:58 AM
 Horne discusses the shot in throat likely came from the South end of the knoll  an that the bruising of the lung reported by Humes, under the mistaken notion that such bruising was from the shot in the back, was instead the path of the front neck wound Dr Clark from Parkland told the NY times a day or to afterwards that the throat wound went down into the chest I don't think he outright mentions the windshield but it sure seems to be the suggestion
Title: Re: No Bullet hole in windshield on JFK's Limo
Post by: Susan Wilde on May 12, 2018, 03:35:51 PM
There was  no  through-and-through bullet caused hole in the limousine's front  windshield.

Discovered  the following within the  truly  excellent website,  "Men of Courage: President Kennedy-elimination" ( page 8 )  provided by  long time researcher  Donald Roberdeau  http://droberdeau.blogspot.com/2011/05/page-8.html


(quote)

Here is the precisely scaled diagram of the Presidential limousine that details
for us the windshield and the bullet fragment-caused windshield glass impacted
defect precise location that was only in the inside glass surface....

(http://i.imgur.com/bx7eamY.gif)
http://i.imgur.com/bx7eamY.gif
click the frame to expand it into a larger, sharper, follow-up window
(Thank You and Hat Tip to Jerry Organ for the limousine?s scaled, basic diagram)




= A windshield bullet fragment-caused glass defect that was not
a through-and-through hole, but, instead, a bullet fragment
had only impacted only onto the inside surface of the
windshield?s glass.

This diagram details precisely where that glass defect
was documented to be located at 12:30 PM on 11-22-63
(just seconds after the volleys of shots ended) when
James Altgens captured his 7th photo, and, the same, exact
location for the defect is also documented in photos
captured minutes later at Parkland Hospital?s emergency
entrance bay, and, as clearly seen in F.B.I. photos
captured about 12 hours later in the White House garage.

This diagram also details where President Kennedy and
Governor Connally?s heads were each precisely located at
the Z-206 instant of the attack during the volley?s of shots,
when President Kennedy is documented in the Zapruder
film to have ALREADY rapidly snapped his head an ultrafast 87
degrees within only 0.16 of a second that was, more than likely,
in his very first immediate reaction to just having been impacted
by a bullet.

The diagram above proves, very simply, and, very precisely, exactly why President Kennedy could not have been struck in the front of his throat by a bullet fired from his left front, that a few persons theorize passed-through a (never-existing) windshield hole.?

= If a hot bullet had been fired from President Kennedy?s front-left,
then, passed through the windshield (without the windshield deflecting
its path, AND, without the hot bullet size being deformed into a larger size **),
that bullet, simply, would have had to enter into Governor Connally first!....

= Entering Connally in either his head?s front left-half, his neck, or hitting
him in his much larger front upper-chest, front left shoulder, or left side!
(None of which were ever impacted)


** Along with CONNALLY located directly in-between the windshield glass defect and JFK, bullets tests have documented and revealed that a hot bullet (and all bullets are extremely hot metal) passing through the multiple-layers laminated glass of the windshield would have also, surely, deformed any hot bullet in its size and shape while the hot bullet impacted with, then, passed through multiple-layers of reinforced glass while impacting through each of those reinforced layers. These impacts-caused deformations onto a hot bullet directly causing size and shape distortions of the bullet most likely would not match doctor PERRY?s very clear description of JFK?s neck front, very small, round wound with very clean edges and a mere 3 to 5 millimeters in width as doctor PERRY described to President KENNEDY's autopsy doctor HUMES within 1 day of the assassination. (and later examinations revealed no laminated glass fragments nor any bullet metal fragments were present in the neck front wound, nor JFK?s shirt, nor the slightly-nicked-by-something oval damage clearly visible on his neck tie knot?s left side outer layer, nor on his neck, nor on his face, nor was there any glass fragments ever found on the front of JFK?s suit coat, nor found on anyone else in the limousine)

(http://i.imgur.com/Lo023S3.jpg)
http://i.imgur.com/Lo023S3.jpg
click the frame to expand it into an extremely larger, sharper, follow-up window

The Altgens # 7 photo above was snapped by the very closeby witness Ike Altgens within seconds after the volleys of assassination shots ended. This photo again confirms the exact same location of the front window defect....a window defect that is only indented on the inside surface of the windshield.



(http://i.imgur.com/oKxaR7b.gif)
http://i.imgur.com/oKxaR7b.gif
click the frame to expand it into a larger, sharper, follow-up window



For an added exact location comparison of the windshield inside surface defect (along with nearby blood drops spatter and brain matter scatter on the windshield's inside surface), the windshield inside surface defect was also documented and confirmed in the exact same Altgens # 7 photo windshield location as its location when the windshield inside surface defect was photographed about 12 hours after the assassination in the White House garage, seen here, in photo CE-350




Here is the clear, very close-up photo of Warren Commission exhibit CE-350 documented on 11-22-63 hours after Dallas looking from the front, outside of the windshield detailing the glass surface dented, small bullet fragment impact defect that was impacted on the inside windshield surface, only, never resulting in an open, nor any rounded, full bullet hole
|
|
|
|
v
(http://i.imgur.com/Kdc39sS.jpg)
http://i.imgur.com/Kdc39sS.jpg
click the frame to expand it into a larger, sharper, follow-up window



?Eternal Return: A Hole Through the Windshield??
by Barb Junkkarinen, Jerry Logan, Josiah Thompson
http://web.archive.org/web/20130624041251/http://www.jfklancerforum.com/dc/dcboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=3&topic_id=82475&mesg_id=82475&listing_type=search

(end quote)
Title: Re: Bullet hole in windshield on JFK's Limo
Post by: Matt Grantham on May 12, 2018, 04:05:27 PM
 Maybe. However that conclusion of yours is not the only significant question raised on the thread. I thought I saw a lose up that looked a little different than the one available here Clearly some of the other photographs from official souurces look completely different than the originals
Title: Re: Bullet hole in windshield on JFK's Limo
Post by: Allan Fritzke on June 12, 2018, 12:52:17 AM
OK CTs, let's say there was a bullet hole in the windshield.

I guess that means we have more altered/falsified/faked photos to expose.

It also means that the windshield assassin would probably be located somewhere atop the underpass or in that vicinity. Yet to my knowledge none was seen.

It also means that glass shards would be expected to be showered into the limo and upon it's occupants. I don't believe any glass shards were reported.

It also means that CTs should be prepared to attempt to explain what happened to the bullet that passed through the windshield.

The photo Altgens took when the limousine was beside him has been removed.  He took an earlier picture and a later picture.   The other one had to be removed because it was telling of what was going on.   He was a paid AP reporter that should have clicked the shutter.  He either didn't or it was conveniently removed.   His account also does not mention the President's head going back in the seat.   Total none sense!   Although he did see the head move forward at Z313! 

Again, there was one guy rolling in the grass next to the limousine.  The best shot comes from the front direct in line with JFK.   Glass shards reflect light and that is what you see happening in the Zapruder Film at Z329.    You also see the driver's reaction to the oncoming bullet as his head moves towards the windshield during the sequence.   One big coverup is the best way to describe the scene and why the car was whisked away and and had a windshield replaced.   Rock chips from a gravel road lol!

Just have a close look at Z336 and you can't help but see film modification.  Is the golden nugget you see Jacqueline's dress or his brain?  You can clearly see his ear in Z336 and you can see the arm of her dress at the same time.  Head had to have been removed in that frame!   Seeing an ear and no head in front means extreme editing!  It doesn't take rocket science to analyze one frame like that!  Is that not her pink shoulder in front of the  hair/ear where you would expect to see a head instead?
(https://www.assassinationresearch.com/zfilm/z336.jpg)
Title: Re: Bullet hole in windshield on JFK's Limo
Post by: Zeon Mason on June 12, 2018, 01:50:04 AM
so no mention of a "crack" in the windshield either in the notes where "no bullet hole" found

Title: Re: Bullet hole in windshield on JFK's Limo
Post by: Mitch Todd on June 12, 2018, 04:50:14 AM
    Medical student Evalea Glanges: "There was a bullet hole in the windshield", a through and through bullet hole from front to back .

Glanges story is that she was outside with another student, and walked up to the limousine to touch what she described as a "clean hole" though the windshield. She said that as soon as she did, a Secret Service agent jumped into the car and drove it away so fast it almost took her arm off.

Here's the problem. Maybe more than one.

There were a number of news photographers standing around outside of Parkland. Without any other story to chase they took photos of the limousine and the crowd that rapidly assembled near the ER entrance.  For about an hour or two, the limo was the most photographed vehicle on the planet. Robin Unger's collection has at least a dozen of those photographs, which can be rearranged in rough chronological order using the progress of the removal of the bubble top from the car's trunk and its subsequent installation on the car. The earliest photos show a group of people standing against the outside wall of the ER in front of the bumper, with a somewhat corpulent woman in a flower-print dress most prominent among the group. It's a nice dress, BTW.  A photo taken shortly later shows that group scattering, with the floral-print dress beating what looks to be a hasty retreat out of frame to the left. From then on, the limo is surrounded by Official-Looking-Guys-In-Suits, with spectators staying a respectful 12-15 feet away. That was the security cordon placed around the car.  You think Glanges really penetrated it?

Also in the parking lot were any number of reporters who, like Richard Dudman, couldn't find a story in the hospital and went outside. A sudden, dangerous altercation between the car and a med student would have gone down right in front of them and their camera-wielding counterparts. Yet no one mentioned such a thing.
Title: Re: Bullet hole in windshield on JFK's Limo
Post by: Mitch Todd on June 12, 2018, 04:59:39 AM
Secret Service Agent Charles Taylor, Jr.

Wrote a report on November 27, 1963 in which he detailed his activities providing security for the limousine immediately after the car?s return to Washington following the assassination. The JFK limousine and the Secret Service follow-up car known as the ?Queen Mary? arrived at Andrews AFB aboard a C-130 propeller-driven cargo plane at about 8:00 PM on November 22, 1963. Agent Taylor rode in the Presidential limousine as it was driven from Andrews AFB to the White House garage at 22nd and M Streets, N.W. In his report about what he witnessed inside the White House garage during the vehicle?s inspection, he wrote: ?In addition, of particular note was the small hole just left of center in the windshield from which what appeared to be bullet fragments were removed.?

[David Lifton, Best Evidence.1988 Edition pp 370-371]


Taylor was riding in the passenger seat. At night he may not have had the best view. In any case, his described a "small hole."

just for reference, this is what a bullet hole through auto safety glass looks like:

(https://dallasnews.imgix.net/Chapa221.jpg?auto=format%2Cenhance&crop=faces%2Centropy&fit=crop&q=40&or=0) 

Do you think you'd describe that simply as a "small hole?"


Add to this Altgens 7 which shows something looking a lot like a bullet hole in t
he windshield you seem to have pretty solid evidence of a bullet hole Yet the WC is completely silent in regard to the windshield?

They asked Kellerman and/or Greer a number of questions about it. It's in their testimony. Might have asked a few more as well.

Title: Re: Bullet hole in windshield on JFK's Limo
Post by: Mitch Todd on June 12, 2018, 05:01:05 AM
Yeah, they could have just called "Safelite repair, Safelite replace".   ::)

Six witnesses said there was a through and through hole, but they were all mistaken because . . .

Reasons.

IIRC, that's basically what FoMoCo's WH liason did.
Title: Re: Bullet hole in windshield on JFK's Limo
Post by: Mitch Todd on June 12, 2018, 05:10:30 AM
Why was the windshield removed in the 1st place? Wasn't it crucial crime scene evidence that should have been left in situ? Aren't you supposed to preserve evidence instead of obliterate or tamper with it in any way? And didn't the SS and FBI know any of this before they tampered with it? Of course they did. No one would be that incompetent, unless...

They did preserve it. It was replaced on the 26th and now sits in the National Archives.
Title: Re: Bullet hole in windshield on JFK's Limo
Post by: Mitch Todd on June 12, 2018, 05:14:56 AM
Rob I found this particularly interesting Thanks

Henry Wade and Chief Curry give the following advice: "Do not release the body until the missile is taken into custody."  This comment has given researchers much dilemma over the years, as they are not sure what "missile" they could be talking about as the CE-399 bullet is NOT found until 1:45 p.m. How did Wade and Curry know a bullet would be found?

Have you considered that they were thinking about a bullet that they at the time assumed was still in JFK's body?
Title: Re: Bullet hole in windshield on JFK's Limo
Post by: Mitch Todd on June 12, 2018, 05:18:23 AM
Get the limo back in service??? Tight budget? HA!

They *did* get the limo back in service. It was sent back to Hess and Eisenhardt around Christmas '63 to be refurbished and considerably up-armored.
Title: Re: Bullet hole in windshield on JFK's Limo
Post by: Doug Easterly on August 26, 2018, 04:37:22 PM
Could the hole or crack emanated from a rock or stone thrown up by the motorcycle escort in front of the limo on Stemmons and to the hospital. I read somewhere where one of the front escort patrolmen said they traversed some gravel around a RR crossing and he thought he might wipe out as he was going really fast for it.
Title: Re: Bullet hole in windshield on JFK's Limo
Post by: Mike Orr on August 26, 2018, 05:54:34 PM
Of course these witnesses will said to have been mistaken about the hole in the windshield as well as the Parkland staff being wrong about the back of JFK's head being blown out . But , someone like Humes & Ford will be given the Green light to move wounds on JFK to try to match their Lone (LHO) Nut Theory and of course , the CE-399 debacle . The Drs. at Parkland were made to look like they couldn't tell an entry wound from an exit wound .  Who told Humes and Ford they could do what they did ?
Title: Re: Bullet hole in windshield on JFK's Limo
Post by: Jake Maxwell on August 26, 2018, 06:07:09 PM
Mr. George Whitaker, Sr., a senior manager at the Ford Motor Company's Rouge Plant in Detroit, Michigan, told attorney (and professor of criminal justice) Doug Weldon in August of 1993, in a tape recorded conversation, that after reporting to work on Monday, November 25th , he discovered the JFK limousine -- a unique, one of a kind item that he unequivocally identified -- in the Rouge Plant's B building, with the interior stripped out and in the process of being replaced, and with the windshield removed. He was then contacted by one of the Vice Presidents of the division for which he worked, and directed to report to the glass plant lab, immediately , After knocking on the locked door(which he found most unusual), he was let in by two of his subordinates and discovered that they were in possession of the windshield that had been removed from the JFK limousine. They had been told to use it as a template, and to make a new windshield identical to it in shape -- and to then get the new windshield back to the B building for installation in the Presidential limousine that was quickly being rebuilt. Whitaker told Weldon ( quoting from the audiotape of the 1993 interview): "And the windshield had a bullet hole in it, coming from the outside through...it was a good , clean bullet hole, right straight through, from the front. And you can tell, when the bullet hits the windshield, like when you hit a rock or something, what happens> The back chips out and the front may just have a pinhole in it...this had a clean round hole in the front and fragmentation coming out the back." Whitaker told Weldon that he eventually became superintendent of his division and was placed in charge of five plant divisions. He also told Weldon that the original windshield, with the bullet hole in it, had been broken up and scrapped---as ordered ---after the new windshield had been made. After George Whitakers death in 2001, his family released his written testament to Nigel Turner, who with their permission revealed Mr. Whitaker's name , as well as the text of his "memo for history," in episode 7 of " The Men Who Killed Kennedy ", " The Smoking Guns "

https://www.lewrockwell.com/2012/06/douglas-p-horne-/photographic-evidence-of-bullet-hole-in-jfk-limousine
This testimony... along with the "hurry it up" replace and repair of Kennedy's limo... which in any other investigation would be considered tampering of evidence... seems to confirm a conspiracy from among the highest officials of government...
Title: Re: Bullet hole in windshield on JFK's Limo
Post by: Royell Storing on August 26, 2018, 06:18:37 PM
Could the hole or crack emanated from a rock or stone thrown up by the motorcycle escort in front of the limo on Stemmons and to the hospital. I read somewhere where one of the front escort patrolmen said they traversed some gravel around a RR crossing and he thought he might wipe out as he was going really fast for it.

       I thought the Altgens photo of the JFK Limo approaching the Triple Underpass displayed damage to the windshield being present at that time?
Title: Re: Bullet hole in windshield on JFK's Limo
Post by: Matt Grantham on August 26, 2018, 10:07:29 PM
       I thought the Altgens photo of the JFK Limo approaching the Triple Underpass displayed damage to the windshield being present at that time?


Apparently Doug is not up on that
Title: Re: Bullet hole in windshield on JFK's Limo
Post by: Jake Maxwell on August 27, 2018, 02:07:11 AM
They did preserve it. It was replaced on the 26th and now sits in the National Archives.
How does someone gain access to the National Archives to examine the windshield?
When was it last examined? I think examination of the windshield would clear up a lot of the discussion. There is testimony that there was an actual hole, and that the shattered glass was on the inside, suggesting a bullet from the outside, indicating a shooter from the front...
Title: Re: Bullet hole in windshield on JFK's Limo
Post by: Steve Howsley on August 27, 2018, 02:34:41 AM
How does someone gain access to the National Archives to examine the windshield?
When was it last examined? I think examination of the windshield would clear up a lot of the discussion. There is testimony that there was an actual hole, and that the shattered glass was on the inside, suggesting a bullet from the outside, indicating a shooter from the front...

7Why would yo want to examine it? If it is as described wouldn't you then claim it's not the original? That's how it works isn't it?
Title: Re: Bullet hole in windshield on JFK's Limo
Post by: Jake Maxwell on August 27, 2018, 03:24:16 AM
7Why would yo want to examine it? If it is as described wouldn't you then claim it's not the original? That's how it works isn't it?
I think you've got the wrong fellow here...
Investigators want to examine the evidence to see if it matches with testimony given...
Title: Re: Bullet hole in windshield on JFK's Limo
Post by: Mitch Todd on August 27, 2018, 04:05:36 AM
       I thought the Altgens photo of the JFK Limo approaching the Triple Underpass displayed damage to the windshield being present at that time?

Some people claim that, but if you look closely at a good copy of the photo, the "spiral nebula" Fetzer, et al, presume to be a hole stops abruptly at the edge of the rear-view mirror. That is, the mirror is between the "nebula" and the camera, and must therefore be ahead of it. That couldn't be true if the "nebula" was on or in the windshield.
Title: Re: Bullet hole in windshield on JFK's Limo
Post by: Bill Chapman on August 27, 2018, 04:28:50 AM
How does someone gain access to the National Archives to examine the windshield?
When was it last examined? I think examination of the windshield would clear up a lot of the discussion. There is testimony that there was an actual hole, and that the shattered glass was on the inside, suggesting a bullet from the outside, indicating a shooter from the front...


Last time I looked, one has to get permission from the Kennedy family representative
School groups get in, maybe tour groups as well.

Meanwhile:

NARA FAQ
https://www.archives.gov/research/jfk/faqs

JFK Limo Windshield removal
https://catalog.archives.gov/id/305143
Title: Re: Bullet hole in windshield on JFK's Limo
Post by: Bill Chapman on August 27, 2018, 04:46:40 AM
7Why would yo want to examine it? If it is as described wouldn't you then claim it's not the original? That's how it works isn't it?

Somone claimed there was a hole clean through the windshield, the diameter of a pencil.
Naturally some folks want to see for themselves. I don't know if that claim was ever debunked or not.

Here's some NARA photos of the windshield
https://catalog.archives.gov/id/305143
Title: Re: Bullet hole in windshield on JFK's Limo
Post by: John Mytton on August 27, 2018, 04:56:51 AM
Some people claim that, but if you look closely at a good copy of the photo, the "spiral nebula" Fetzer, et al, presume to be a hole stops abruptly at the edge of the rear-view mirror. That is, the mirror is between the "nebula" and the camera, and must therefore be ahead of it. That couldn't be true if the "nebula" was on or in the windshield.

 Thumb1:

Altgens 6. Here is a random image I found which points out some lens flare and highlights their "spiral nebula".

(http://content.invisioncic.com/r16296/post-667-1262903178.jpg)

In the following gif we see Altgens 7 on a 22nd Nov newspaper and when compared to the official photo which was taken a few hour after midnight, we see crack in the same position and the start of the same radiating cracks which line up.

(https://s15.postimg.cc/uzdmbro7v/Altgenscrack_zpsfb0eb03c_1.gif)

JohnM
Title: Re: Bullet hole in windshield on JFK's Limo
Post by: Bill Chapman on August 27, 2018, 05:16:36 AM
This testimony... along with the "hurry it up" replace and repair of Kennedy's limo... which in any other investigation would be considered tampering of evidence... seems to confirm a conspiracy from among the highest officials of government...

Maybe think things through before finding sinister motive behind every blade of grass. The limo needed immediate upgrading for the protection of the president. Note below that both the FBI & SS took photos and searched for evidence before the limo was throughly cleaned.

SS-100-X
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/SS-100-X

EXCERPT

Later that afternoon at 3.30 pm CST the limousine was taken to Love Field and boarded on a C-130 and flown to Andrews Air Force Base, Washington DC, landing at 8 pm EST. After arrival at Andrews AFB, the limo was delivered to the White House garage. The Secret Service and later the FBI took photos of the limo's interior and searched it for evidence before it was thoroughly cleaned and valeted.

Post-assassination

In late December 1963, the car was sent back to Hess & Eisenhardt to be modified further, and was rebuilt from the ground up. For protection, the Lincoln received titanium armor plating, bullet-resistant glass and a bulletproof permanent roof. Solid aluminium rims were also fitted inside the tires to make them flat-proof. It remained in service for an additional eight years, logging 50,000 miles on the ground and over one million miles being flown to and from its destinations. The vehicle was equipped with Presidential lap robes and mouton carpeting and a complete communications system including radio patch to the White House. It was replaced in 1967 and remained in service doing less important duties until 1978, when it was retired to the Henry Ford Museum.
Title: Re: Bullet hole in windshield on JFK's Limo
Post by: Jake Maxwell on August 27, 2018, 05:21:41 AM
Somone claimed there was a hole clean through the windshield, the diameter of a pencil.
Naturally some folks want to see for themselves. I don't know if that claim was ever debunked or not.

Here's some NARA photos of the windshield
https://catalog.archives.gov/id/305143
Yes... I would want to know if that claim can be debunked... close examination would settle the issue...
Title: Re: Bullet hole in windshield on JFK's Limo
Post by: John Iacoletti on August 27, 2018, 08:41:47 PM
EXCERPT

Later that afternoon at 3.30 pm CST the limousine was taken to Love Field and boarded on a C-130 and flown to Andrews Air Force Base, Washington DC, landing at 8 pm EST. After arrival at Andrews AFB, the limo was delivered to the White House garage. The Secret Service and later the FBI took photos of the limo's interior and searched it for evidence before it was thoroughly cleaned and valeted.

Cool, where can I find the photos showing the bullet fragments in place?
Title: Re: Bullet hole in windshield on JFK's Limo
Post by: Jerry Organ on August 27, 2018, 09:20:32 PM
(http://i67.tinypic.com/s4ynp3.jpg)
Title: Re: Bullet hole in windshield on JFK's Limo
Post by: Mike Orr on August 27, 2018, 10:35:37 PM
The hole in the limo windshield was corroborated by several witnesses . I am going to take an eyewitness testimony whenever possible over someone who just comes and says that witness was wrong in what they saw. The same goes for me when talk of there was no blasted out hole in the back of JFK's head and when it comes down to Gerald Ford saying that the back wound was really a wound at the base of the back of the neck . It seems that the Warren Commission thought that a good witness was a witness who agreed with the WC. The chain of evidence went away as soon as JFK's body was taken by force from Parkland. As USMC Carlos Hathcock reiterated , " We set up the exact replica of Dealy Plaza and none of us could do the shooting that LHO was said to have done " ! I have to think that if Carlos Hathcock couldn't make the shots then how would Maggies Drawers ( miss the target) Lee Harvey Oswald do it with that piece of sheet , Mannlicher Carcano ?
Title: Re: Bullet hole in windshield on JFK's Limo
Post by: Royell Storing on August 27, 2018, 11:23:06 PM
(http://i67.tinypic.com/s4ynp3.jpg)

    The speculation posted above Might be possible if JFK was wearing his shirt around his Ears.
Title: Re: Bullet hole in windshield on JFK's Limo
Post by: Jerry Organ on August 28, 2018, 12:59:36 AM
    The speculation posted above Might be possible if JFK was wearing his shirt around his Ears.

LOL! Now Kennedy's jacket can't pull apart and expose the shirt-front.

(https://www.jfkassassinationgallery.com/albums/userpics/10001/11371.jpg)  (https://d146hcqz7izbhz.cloudfront.net/wp-content/uploads/2017/10/21163643/jfk-dallas.jpg)  (https://s2.reutersmedia.net/resources/r/?m=02&d=20070219&t=2&i=395973&r=395973)

(https://3.bp.blogspot.com/-4e3gLIt_8NU/WAPemw9A-zI/AAAAAAABKuo/mnOTXseZ1sE8MQ6jvGsVcXUP5QmAyB5DQCLcB/s800/JFK-At-Love-Field-11-22-63.png)  (https://www.jfkassassinationgallery.com/albums/userpics/10001/DCA.jpg)
Title: Re: Bullet hole in windshield on JFK's Limo
Post by: Royell Storing on August 28, 2018, 04:07:32 AM

      (1) JFK's dress jacket Bunched Up in the back, (2) JFK's dress shirt also Bunched Up in the back, (even though it was secured in place by the tie around his neck), and, (3) JFK now has this same dress shirt up around his ears. Keep up the sterling work.
Title: Re: Bullet hole in windshield on JFK's Limo
Post by: John Iacoletti on August 28, 2018, 06:20:19 AM
I think Jerry was talking about the lower white spot, not the ?spiral nebula?.
Title: Re: Bullet hole in windshield on JFK's Limo
Post by: Bill Brown on August 28, 2018, 08:08:56 AM
Cool, where can I find the photos showing the bullet fragments in place?

Is a lack of photos showing the fragments in place supposed to prove that the fragments truly were not found inside the limo?
Title: Re: Bullet hole in windshield on JFK's Limo
Post by: Bill Brown on August 28, 2018, 08:12:56 AM
How does someone gain access to the National Archives to examine the windshield?
When was it last examined? I think examination of the windshield would clear up a lot of the discussion. There is testimony that there was an actual hole, and that the shattered glass was on the inside, suggesting a bullet from the outside, indicating a shooter from the front...


The guy who actually examined the windshield (Robert Frazier) testified that there certainly was no hole.  Do you have an opinion on that fact?
Title: Re: Bullet hole in windshield on JFK's Limo
Post by: Ray Mitcham on August 28, 2018, 11:47:41 AM
The guy who actually examined the windshield (Robert Frazier) testified that there certainly was no hole.  Do you have an opinion on that fact?
Frazier
"I am a special agent assigned to the FBI laboratory, the firearms identification unit in Washington, D.C., where I make examinations of bullets, cartridges, gunpowder tests, bullet holes, examinations of clothing, and other similar types of examinations."

'Special Agent" Hardly an unbiased investigator.  :D
Title: Re: Bullet hole in windshield on JFK's Limo
Post by: Royell Storing on August 28, 2018, 02:56:13 PM
I think Jerry was talking about the lower white spot, not the ?spiral nebula?.

    The hilariously concocted "spiral nebula" brings back memories of the original "Star Trek". I wonder at what point the Khan implanted worms exited the ears of Oswald?


   
Title: Re: Bullet hole in windshield on JFK's Limo
Post by: Jerry Organ on August 28, 2018, 07:36:01 PM

Some here think their opponents require Trek's time-travel wrap-holes in order to "prove" things. (https://www.jfkassassinationforum.com/Smileys/DarkB/cheesy.gif)
Title: Re: Bullet hole in windshield on JFK's Limo
Post by: Allan Fritzke on August 28, 2018, 08:26:07 PM
How would one go about doing an analysis on what the size of the fragments would need to have been to create the damage to the windshield and chrome piece?

http://ss100x.com/ferg1.gif
There is a major issue with what Vaughn Ferguson report in this letter and there is no synergy between his statements and the crated windshield as evidence or the Altgens "7" photograph as evidence.  If you note his statement he was called in to look solely at the windshield on the first day.  The rest of the car was covered up with canvas and he was told to look at the windshield only.  "Bubbletop"????

1)  What did this have to do with the subject heading of the report - RE:  Changes in White House "Bubbletop"?
2)  What was he called in to do on that very first day.   Was it to note that there was no perforation in the windshield?  Why was he specifically called upon to examine this?  Was it a safelite repair?!   If you need a windshield replaced, you obviously bring it to a place to get that done.  You don't call someone in to examine it  first and ask "what would you recommend for us to do with it"?
3)  The other aspect is that coming back the next day, he removes dried blood from around buttons on the upholstery.  Sounds like he is a windshield specialist/doctor lol!

To me, this all looks like someone brought him there to make sure that he could make a statement to the effect that "there was no hole in the windshield".   This would be a nice counter measure to those who already had said they "saw" undeniably a hole in the windshield.  Clearly, doesn't that make sense and be the purpose of this piece of paper?   Real windshield was trashed and never to be seen!

Look at his statement and I quote:  "Examination of the windshield disclosed no perforation, but substantial cracks radiating a couple of inches from the center of the windshield at a point directly beneath the mirror."    So.....if he was called in to closely examine this windshield which the letter says:  "RE:  Changes in White House "Bubbletop"" and it does not in anyway match the Altgens "7" photograph or windshield in crate evidence,  who or what is the real evidence provided and why did he issue a contradictory statement?  There is no synergy between his statement and the rest.  It doesn't make sense either that the windshield specialist comes back the next day while the car is unguarded and proceeds to remove dried blood from around upholstery buttons that was missed by the SS!!!    Did he have trouble locating the part number of the windshield so that it could be ordered in!?  {I can't believe people can't read this and not realize what was going on and what a coverup was in the process!!}
Title: Re: Bullet hole in windshield on JFK's Limo
Post by: Rob Caprio on August 28, 2018, 09:38:28 PM
Is a lack of photos showing the fragments in place supposed to prove that the fragments truly were not found inside the limo?

Mr. SPECTER. And did you ever observe any bullet fragments in the car at rest after the shooting?

Mr. KELLERMAN. No, sir.
Title: Re: Bullet hole in windshield on JFK's Limo
Post by: Bill Brown on August 28, 2018, 09:39:54 PM
Mr. SPECTER. And did you ever observe any bullet fragments in the car at rest after the shooting?

Mr. KELLERMAN. No, sir.

And that is supposed to prove what, exactly?
Title: Re: Bullet hole in windshield on JFK's Limo
Post by: Rob Caprio on August 28, 2018, 09:41:18 PM
The Warren Commission (WC) said Lee Harvey Oswald (LHO) fired three shots from BEHIND the limousine that carried President John F. Kennedy (JFK) in it, and that these were the ONLY shots fired that day. Period. That is why there has been much discussion regarding what quite a few witnesses saw on November 22, 1963, when they viewed the limousine up close at Parkland Hospital (PH). They saw a bullet hole in the limousine?s windshield which was a through-and-through hole, which means it had to be fired from the FRONT of the limousine since the WC could NOT account for a shot in the three shot scenario that could have done this damage.

Let?s look at this issue in more detail in this post.


***********************************************

After arriving at PH the Presidential limousine was parked  in front of the hospital for a short while in order to have JFK removed from it and taken inside. Also, it appears something was done to the limousine as we see some men with a bucket next to the car and after several witnesses commented on the hole in the windshield the limousine was driven away.

Richard Dudman - reporter for the St. Louis Dispatch - wrote in an article entitled "Commentary of an Eyewitness" that appeared in the "New Republic" on December, 21, 1963, which stated: "A few of us NOTICED the hole in the windshield when the limousine was standing at the emergency entrance after the President had been carried inside.  I could not approach close enough to see which side was the cup-shaped spot that indicates a bullet has PIERCED the glass from the opposite side." (Emphasis mine)  Dudman went on to say he and other reporters were SHOVED away by Secret Service (SS) agents when they tried to examine the hole to determine from which direction the bullet had been fired from. (Mark Lane, Amherst speech, 1964)

Dudman will receive corroboration from others in this matter. Two Dallas Police Department (DPD) police officers will see a hole in the presidential limousine as well. Sergeant Starvis Ellis will say he saw a hole in the windshield of the limousine when he saw the limousine at PH. Ellis would tell interviewer Gil Toff in 1971: ?There was a hole in the left front windshield?You could put a pencil through it?you could take a regular standard writing pencil?and stick [it] through there.? Ellis said a SS agent tried to persuade him that it was a ?fragment? and not a hole, but Ellis remained adamant and said, ?It wasn?t a damn fragment. It was a HOLE.? (David Lifton, Best Evidence, 1980)

He would tell researcher Vincent Palamara the following in a letter.


Quote on

Yes, I did see a hole in the limousine windshield at Parkland Hospital. I did not see the bone fragment. That officer on the escort with me said there was one fragment, approximately six or seven inches around. (Starvis Ellis letter to Vince Palamara, 9/8/98)

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Ellis? partner was H.R. Freeman and he said, "I was right beside it.  I could of [sic] touched it.  It was a bullet hole.  You could tell what it was.? (David Lifton, Best Evidence, 1980) This gives us two police officers and a reporter so far saying they saw a bullet hole in the windshield.

Another witness to this incident was Dr. Evalea Glanges and she was a second year medical student at Southwestern Hospital, which was right next to PH. When she heard of the shooting she knew the President would be taken to PH so she ventured out there for a look.  She wound up standing RIGHT NEXT TO THE LIMOUSINE!  She leaned against the fender and looked at the windshield up close and saw a HOLE in it.  Looking from her outside position she noted it "was a real clean hole? and told this to researcher Douglas Weldon many years later. Mr. Weldon had this interview taped and it was included in the The Men Who Killed Kennedy (TMWKK) episode seven titled ?The Smoking Guns.? This is the episode that was pretty much banned due to pressure. In the interview she said the following to Mr. Weldon.


Quote on

?it [bullet hole in windshield] was very clear, it was a through-and-through bullet hole through the windshield of the car, from the front to the back?it seemed like a high-velocity bullet that had penetrated from front-to-back in that glass pane.

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Dr. Glanges was not alone when she noticed this hole in the windshield, but her friend would not discuss this issue  (or allow Dr. Glanges to say their name) when she met with Douglas Weldon in 1999!  She was very afraid of speaking about what she saw and perhaps Dr. Glanges should have been too as Dr. Glanges would die in February 1999 after meeting with Weldon in January 1999 for an interview about the hole. Glanges told Weldon that she talked about the hole in a loud voice at PH, this caused someone to get into the car and speed away with it. Glanges said it happened so fast they "almost took my arm off." She said she knew the official story was "phony", and that she should "keep her mouth shut", but with retirement on the horizon and so many years gone by I guess she thought it was safe. What was odd about her sudden demise was that she had told him about a vacation she was taking in a month, and did NOT mention any serious illnesses so the fact she was dead that fast after the interview has to make the normal person believe she had seen something she should not have seen.

Another witness to this hole was SS Agent Charles Taylor, Jr., who noted the following in a report he wrote on November 27, 1963.


Quote on

Mr. Orin Bartlett drove the Presidential vehicle out of the bin.  The team of FBI Agents, assisted by the Secret Service Agents on duty, removed the leatherette convertible top and the plexi-glass bubbletop; also the molding strips that secure the floor matting, and the rear seat.  What appeared to be bullet fragments were removed from the windshield and the floor rug in the rear of the car.

In addition, of particular note was the small hole just to the left of center in the windshield from which what appeared to be bullet fragments were removed.

http://jfkthefrontshot.blogspot.com/2013/06/the-entrance-hole-in-windshield.html

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Whatever happened to these bullet fragments taken from the windshield? They are not part of the evidence we have to use currently. He also mentions the small hole in the windshield. Of course Agent Taylor would be forced to recant this report as a hole in the windshield did NOT support the official conclusion.

Another witness was George Whitaker who was a senior manager Ford Motor Company?s Rouge Plant in Detroit, Michigan. He would tell Mr. Weldon in a taped interview that on November 25, 1963, he saw the presidential limousine (a unique, one-of-a-kind automobile) in building B of the Rogue Plant when he reported for work. He said the interior had been stripped out and the windshield had been removed as well. Let?s pick up the interview as seen in TMWKK episode seven in this quote.


Quote on

He was then contacted by one of the Vice Presidents of the division for which he worked, and directed to report to the glass plant lab, immediately. After knocking on the locked door (which he found most unusual), he was let in by two of his subordinates and discovered that they were in possession of the windshield that had been removed from the JFK limousine. They had been told to use it as a template, and to make a new windshield identical to it in shape ? and to then get the new windshield back to the B building for installation in the Presidential limousine that was quickly being rebuilt. Whitaker told Weldon (quoting from the audiotape of the 1993 interview): "And the windshield had a bullet hole in it, coming from the outside through...it was a good, clean bullet hole, right straight through, from the front. And you can tell, when the bullet hits the windshield, like when you hit a rock or something, what happens? The back chips out and the front may just have a pinhole in it...this had a clean round hole in the front and fragmentation coming out the back." Whitaker told Weldon that he eventually became superintendent of his division and was placed in charge of five plant divisions. He also told Weldon that the original windshield, with the bullet hole in it, had been broken up and scrapped ? as ordered ? after the new windshield had been made.

When Doug Weldon interviewed Whitaker in August of 1993, his witness insisted on anonymity. Weldon reported on the story without releasing Whitaker's name in his excellent and comprehensive article titled: "The Kennedy Limousine: Dallas 1963," which was published in Jim Fetzer's anthology Murder in Dealey Plaza, in 2000. After Weldon interviewed Whitaker in August of 1993, Mr. Whitaker subsequently ? on November 22, 1993 (the 30th anniversary of President Kennedy's assassination) ? wrote down all he could remember about the events he witnessed involving the Presidential limousine and its windshield. After George Whitaker's death in 2001, his family released his written testament to Nigel Turner, who with their permission revealed Mr. Whitaker's name, as well as the text of his "memo for history," in episode 7 of The Men Who Killed Kennedy, "The Smoking Guns."

http://jfkthefrontshot.blogspot.com/2013/06/the-entrance-hole-in-windshield.html

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Further confirmation of the frontal shot comes from SS Agent Roy Kellerman (although he probably was referring to the first replacement windshield) when he testified before the WC about what he felt on the windshield.

Mr. SPECTER. Did you have occasion to feel the outside of the windshield?

Mr. KELLERMAN. I did on that day [November 27]; yes, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. What did you feel, if anything?

Mr. KELLERMAN. Not a thing; it was real smooth.

Mr. SPECTER. Did you have occasion to feel the inside of the windshield?

Mr. KELLERMAN. I did.

Mr. SPECTER. How did that feel to you?

Mr. KELLERMAN. My comparison was that the broken glass, broken windshield, there was enough little roughness in there from the cracks and split that I was positive, or it was my belief, that whatever hit it came into the inside of the car.

Safety glass show damage on the OTHER SIDE of impact, thus, the fact it was smoothed on the outside and rough on the inside shows a frontal shot hit it (albeit this was the first false new windshield). Since it was probably not the original windshield that was on the limousine on November 22, 1963, this shows even in this area the conspirators were not very competent as they created a new windshield that showed it was hit from the front. This would lead to a second replacement that showed a shot from the back hit it.

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Researcher Robert P. Smith (as reported by David Lifton in Best Evidence) interviewed a Mr. Bill Ashby, crew leader at the Arlington Glass Company, who told Smith he removed the limousine?s windshield in Washington, D.C. on November 27th; this occurred after Roy Kellerman had felt the interior surface earlier that day and determined it to be damaged on the inside, and smooth on the outside.

But the windshield at the National Archives today exhibits long cracks ? not a through-and-through bullet hole ? and is damaged on the outside, which is the opposite of what Kellerman noted by physical examination on November 27th.

Co-owner Willard Hess of the automotive firm Hess and Eisenhardt in Cincinnati, Ohio told Doug Weldon that his company also replaced the windshield in the Presidential limousine, and that the glass removed was standard safety glass ? consistent with what George Whitaker said his team reinstalled in the limousine in Detroit, immediately after the assassination. Hess and Eisenhardt replaced the standard safety glass with special bullet resistant glass made by the Pittsburgh Plate Glass Company. (Presumably, the windshield removed by Hess and Eisenhardt was the second new windshield installed ? by the Arlington Glass Company ? on November 27th, 1963, and is the one in the National Archives today.) Mr. Hess told Weldon that the windshield his company removed was not damaged at the time it was removed.

The clear implication here is that the windshield in the Archives today, which exhibits cracks but not a bullet hole, was intentionally damaged by someone involved in the cover-up AFTER its removal by Hess and Eisenhardt.

https://www.lewrockwell.com/2012/06/douglas-p-horne/photographic-evidence-of-bullet-hole-in-jfk-limousine-windshield-hiding-in-plain-sight/

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We see that the windshield was replaced yet again on November 27, 1963, after Roy Kellerman had felt it and that is the current one in the National Archives. Why would this be necessary if the original had either NO hole in it or did NOT reflect a shot from the front? Another disturbing incident occurred outside of PH on November 22, 1963, as well.

Sergeant Ellis said he saw a SS agent take the camera away from a small boy and expose the film to the sun after he had taken a few photographs of the limousine outside of PH. Why would the SS act like bullies with a small boy and take the undeveloped film out of his camera if there was NO hole in the windshield and other damage seen on the limousine that differed with the official conclusion? Ellis? account of this event was corroborated by another DPD officer, James W. Courson, so it is NOT just Ellis's word for it.

Finally, in Douglas Horne?s look at this issue we see he studied the film in the DVD version of the TMWKK episode seven and wrote about what he saw.


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The Stunning Content of ?The Smoking Guns?

This ?B-roll? footage appears between the times of 14:02 and 14:04 on the DVD, and consists of a total of 84 video frames (there are 30 video frames per second in a U.S. television broadcast). The black-and-white images appear to come from standard 16 mm B & W newsreel footage, taken by a stocky man wearing a hat who had approached the Presidential limousine as it was parked outside the Parkland Hospital emergency room (and before the bubble top was installed). The point of view (POV) of the camera was that of someone sitting in the limousine, or rather standing just beside it and to the right side. The camera is pointed at the inside surface of the windshield from behind ? that is the POV. One man in a suit and tie can be seen standing on the front side, or forward of, the windshield, and two DPD motorcycle patrolmen (are they Ellis and Freeman?) can be seen leaning in and examining the windshield. What looks to me like a through-and-through bullet hole is visible in all 84 video frames, left of center on the windshield (adopting the POV of the camera) and approximately halfway down from the top, although these are only rough approximations. The location appears to be entirely consistent with that described by Charles Taylor and George Whitaker (above).

I wish to make something very clear here: you cannot access the images I am describing above in the U-Tube segment in which this episode has been put up on the internet. First, the timing is different in the U-Tube segment (13:08, vice 14:02), because the U-Tube segment was copied from the broadcast. [The factory DVD location of the clip is at a later point in the program, at 14:02, because of advertising material inserted at the beginning of the DVD.] Second, the size of the U-Tube presentation is so small on one?s computer screen, and the resolution so poor in comparison with a big screen HD television, that you can forget seeing this windshield bullet hole on U-Tube. The viewer needs the factory-produced DVD; a good DVD player with functioning frame-by-frame advance; and a big screen, High Definition (1080p) TV. The bullet hole shows up clearly on my 52″ SONY Bravia television. So anyone concerned with doing research here simply must obtain the factory-produced DVD.

https://www.lewrockwell.com/2012/06/douglas-p-horne/photographic-evidence-of-bullet-hole-in-jfk-limousine-windshield-hiding-in-plain-sight/

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Dr. Horne also gives great advice regarding the WC defenders too.

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Now, no doubt the ?lone-nutter? crowd ? both those who are in denial of the reality of an American coup in 1963 (because they can?t handle the truth), and the U.S. government?s third-party surrogates in the midst of the research community (whose job it is to cast doubt on all new research pointing to conspiracy and cover-up) ? will react violently to this essay, and that is predictable. But you don?t have to listen to their opinions?EXAMINE THE EVIDENCE YOURSELF AND MAKE UP YOUR OWN MIND.

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He is exactly right, don?t listen to anyone?examine the evidence for yourself. It is clear that a conspiracy occurred and that is why the WC defenders don?t want to discuss it very often.

Here is a link to Mr. Weldon?s very good article on this issue:


http://www.maryferrell.org/mffweb/archive/viewer/showDoc.do?absPageId=226698

I think we see again there is an abundance of evidence that show the official conclusion of the WC is incorrect, and thus, it is sunk by the evidence.
Title: Re: Bullet hole in windshield on JFK's Limo
Post by: John Iacoletti on August 28, 2018, 10:26:18 PM
Some here think their opponents require Trek's time-travel wrap-holes in order to "prove" things. (https://www.jfkassassinationforum.com/Smileys/DarkB/cheesy.gif)

Some people think that all that's necessary to prove that something happened is that somebody said so.
Title: Re: Bullet hole in windshield on JFK's Limo
Post by: Royell Storing on August 28, 2018, 10:53:54 PM
Some here think their opponents require Trek's time-travel wrap-holes in order to "prove" things. (https://www.jfkassassinationforum.com/Smileys/DarkB/cheesy.gif)

           Jerry - "Live Long and Prosper".
Title: Re: Bullet hole in windshield on JFK's Limo
Post by: Rob Caprio on August 29, 2018, 02:50:03 AM
And that is supposed to prove what, exactly?

I can't solve your reading comprehension issues.
Title: Re: Bullet hole in windshield on JFK's Limo
Post by: Bill Chapman on August 29, 2018, 05:53:12 AM
Frazier
"I am a special agent assigned to the FBI laboratory, the firearms identification unit in Washington, D.C., where I make examinations of bullets, cartridges, gunpowder tests, bullet holes, examinations of clothing, and other similar types of examinations."

'Special Agent" Hardly an unbiased investigator.  :D

Explain that, and read this:

Special Agent
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special_agent
Title: Re: Bullet hole in windshield on JFK's Limo
Post by: Allan Fritzke on August 29, 2018, 06:06:09 AM
The Warren Commission (WC) said Lee Harvey Oswald (LHO) fired three shots from BEHIND the limousine that carried President John F. Kennedy (JFK) in it, and that these were the ONLY shots fired that day. Period. That is why there has been much discussion regarding what quite a few witnesses saw on November 22, 1963, when they viewed the limousine up close at Parkland Hospital (PH). They saw a bullet hole in the limousine?s windshield which was a through-and-through hole, which means it had to be fired from the FRONT of the limousine since the WC could NOT account for a shot in the three shot scenario that could have done this damage.

Let?s look at this issue in more detail in this post.


***********************************************

After arriving at PH the Presidential limousine was parked  in front of the hospital for a short while in order to have JFK removed from it and taken inside. Also, it appears something was done to the limousine as we see some men with a bucket next to the car and after several witnesses commented on the hole in the windshield the limousine was driven away.

Richard Dudman - reporter for the St. Louis Dispatch - wrote in an article entitled "Commentary of an Eyewitness" that appeared in the "New Republic" on December, 21, 1963, which stated: "A few of us NOTICED the hole in the windshield when the limousine was standing at the emergency entrance after the President had been carried inside.  I could not approach close enough to see which side was the cup-shaped spot that indicates a bullet has PIERCED the glass from the opposite side." (Emphasis mine)  Dudman went on to say he and other reporters were SHOVED away by Secret Service (SS) agents when they tried to examine the hole to determine from which direction the bullet had been fired from. (Mark Lane, Amherst speech, 1964)

Dudman will receive corroboration from others in this matter. Two Dallas Police Department (DPD) police officers will see a hole in the presidential limousine as well. Sergeant Starvis Ellis will say he saw a hole in the windshield of the limousine when he saw the limousine at PH. Ellis would tell interviewer Gil Toff in 1971: ?There was a hole in the left front windshield?You could put a pencil through it?you could take a regular standard writing pencil?and stick [it] through there.? Ellis said a SS agent tried to persuade him that it was a ?fragment? and not a hole, but Ellis remained adamant and said, ?It wasn?t a damn fragment. It was a HOLE.? (David Lifton, Best Evidence, 1980)

He would tell researcher Vincent Palamara the following in a letter.


Quote on

Yes, I did see a hole in the limousine windshield at Parkland Hospital. I did not see the bone fragment. That officer on the escort with me said there was one fragment, approximately six or seven inches around. (Starvis Ellis letter to Vince Palamara, 9/8/98)

Quote off

Ellis? partner was H.R. Freeman and he said, "I was right beside it.  I could of [sic] touched it.  It was a bullet hole.  You could tell what it was.? (David Lifton, Best Evidence, 1980) This gives us two police officers and a reporter so far saying they saw a bullet hole in the windshield.

Another witness to this incident was Dr. Evalea Glanges and she was a second year medical student at Southwestern Hospital, which was right next to PH. When she heard of the shooting she knew the President would be taken to PH so she ventured out there for a look.  She wound up standing RIGHT NEXT TO THE LIMOUSINE!  She leaned against the fender and looked at the windshield up close and saw a HOLE in it.  Looking from her outside position she noted it "was a real clean hole? and told this to researcher Douglas Weldon many years later. Mr. Weldon had this interview taped and it was included in the The Men Who Killed Kennedy (TMWKK) episode seven titled ?The Smoking Guns.? This is the episode that was pretty much banned due to pressure. In the interview she said the following to Mr. Weldon.


Quote on

?it [bullet hole in windshield] was very clear, it was a through-and-through bullet hole through the windshield of the car, from the front to the back?it seemed like a high-velocity bullet that had penetrated from front-to-back in that glass pane.

Quote off

Dr. Glanges was not alone when she noticed this hole in the windshield, but her friend would not discuss this issue  (or allow Dr. Glanges to say their name) when she met with Douglas Weldon in 1999!  She was very afraid of speaking about what she saw and perhaps Dr. Glanges should have been too as Dr. Glanges would die in February 1999 after meeting with Weldon in January 1999 for an interview about the hole. Glanges told Weldon that she talked about the hole in a loud voice at PH, this caused someone to get into the car and speed away with it. Glanges said it happened so fast they "almost took my arm off." She said she knew the official story was "phony", and that she should "keep her mouth shut", but with retirement on the horizon and so many years gone by I guess she thought it was safe. What was odd about her sudden demise was that she had told him about a vacation she was taking in a month, and did NOT mention any serious illnesses so the fact she was dead that fast after the interview has to make the normal person believe she had seen something she should not have seen.

Another witness to this hole was SS Agent Charles Taylor, Jr., who noted the following in a report he wrote on November 27, 1963.


Quote on

Mr. Orin Bartlett drove the Presidential vehicle out of the bin.  The team of FBI Agents, assisted by the Secret Service Agents on duty, removed the leatherette convertible top and the plexi-glass bubbletop; also the molding strips that secure the floor matting, and the rear seat.  What appeared to be bullet fragments were removed from the windshield and the floor rug in the rear of the car.

In addition, of particular note was the small hole just to the left of center in the windshield from which what appeared to be bullet fragments were removed.

http://jfkthefrontshot.blogspot.com/2013/06/the-entrance-hole-in-windshield.html

Quote off

Whatever happened to these bullet fragments taken from the windshield? They are not part of the evidence we have to use currently. He also mentions the small hole in the windshield. Of course Agent Taylor would be forced to recant this report as a hole in the windshield did NOT support the official conclusion.

Another witness was George Whitaker who was a senior manager Ford Motor Company?s Rouge Plant in Detroit, Michigan. He would tell Mr. Weldon in a taped interview that on November 25, 1963, he saw the presidential limousine (a unique, one-of-a-kind automobile) in building B of the Rogue Plant when he reported for work. He said the interior had been stripped out and the windshield had been removed as well. Let?s pick up the interview as seen in TMWKK episode seven in this quote.


Quote on

He was then contacted by one of the Vice Presidents of the division for which he worked, and directed to report to the glass plant lab, immediately. After knocking on the locked door (which he found most unusual), he was let in by two of his subordinates and discovered that they were in possession of the windshield that had been removed from the JFK limousine. They had been told to use it as a template, and to make a new windshield identical to it in shape ? and to then get the new windshield back to the B building for installation in the Presidential limousine that was quickly being rebuilt. Whitaker told Weldon (quoting from the audiotape of the 1993 interview): "And the windshield had a bullet hole in it, coming from the outside through...it was a good, clean bullet hole, right straight through, from the front. And you can tell, when the bullet hits the windshield, like when you hit a rock or something, what happens? The back chips out and the front may just have a pinhole in it...this had a clean round hole in the front and fragmentation coming out the back." Whitaker told Weldon that he eventually became superintendent of his division and was placed in charge of five plant divisions. He also told Weldon that the original windshield, with the bullet hole in it, had been broken up and scrapped ? as ordered ? after the new windshield had been made.

When Doug Weldon interviewed Whitaker in August of 1993, his witness insisted on anonymity. Weldon reported on the story without releasing Whitaker's name in his excellent and comprehensive article titled: "The Kennedy Limousine: Dallas 1963," which was published in Jim Fetzer's anthology Murder in Dealey Plaza, in 2000. After Weldon interviewed Whitaker in August of 1993, Mr. Whitaker subsequently ? on November 22, 1993 (the 30th anniversary of President Kennedy's assassination) ? wrote down all he could remember about the events he witnessed involving the Presidential limousine and its windshield. After George Whitaker's death in 2001, his family released his written testament to Nigel Turner, who with their permission revealed Mr. Whitaker's name, as well as the text of his "memo for history," in episode 7 of The Men Who Killed Kennedy, "The Smoking Guns."

http://jfkthefrontshot.blogspot.com/2013/06/the-entrance-hole-in-windshield.html

Quote off

Further confirmation of the frontal shot comes from SS Agent Roy Kellerman (although he probably was referring to the first replacement windshield) when he testified before the WC about what he felt on the windshield.

Mr. SPECTER. Did you have occasion to feel the outside of the windshield?

Mr. KELLERMAN. I did on that day [November 27]; yes, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. What did you feel, if anything?

Mr. KELLERMAN. Not a thing; it was real smooth.

Mr. SPECTER. Did you have occasion to feel the inside of the windshield?

Mr. KELLERMAN. I did.

Mr. SPECTER. How did that feel to you?

Mr. KELLERMAN. My comparison was that the broken glass, broken windshield, there was enough little roughness in there from the cracks and split that I was positive, or it was my belief, that whatever hit it came into the inside of the car.

Safety glass show damage on the OTHER SIDE of impact, thus, the fact it was smoothed on the outside and rough on the inside shows a frontal shot hit it (albeit this was the first false new windshield). Since it was probably not the original windshield that was on the limousine on November 22, 1963, this shows even in this area the conspirators were not very competent as they created a new windshield that showed it was hit from the front. This would lead to a second replacement that showed a shot from the back hit it.

Quote on

Researcher Robert P. Smith (as reported by David Lifton in Best Evidence) interviewed a Mr. Bill Ashby, crew leader at the Arlington Glass Company, who told Smith he removed the limousine?s windshield in Washington, D.C. on November 27th; this occurred after Roy Kellerman had felt the interior surface earlier that day and determined it to be damaged on the inside, and smooth on the outside.

But the windshield at the National Archives today exhibits long cracks ? not a through-and-through bullet hole ? and is damaged on the outside, which is the opposite of what Kellerman noted by physical examination on November 27th.

Co-owner Willard Hess of the automotive firm Hess and Eisenhardt in Cincinnati, Ohio told Doug Weldon that his company also replaced the windshield in the Presidential limousine, and that the glass removed was standard safety glass ? consistent with what George Whitaker said his team reinstalled in the limousine in Detroit, immediately after the assassination. Hess and Eisenhardt replaced the standard safety glass with special bullet resistant glass made by the Pittsburgh Plate Glass Company. (Presumably, the windshield removed by Hess and Eisenhardt was the second new windshield installed ? by the Arlington Glass Company ? on November 27th, 1963, and is the one in the National Archives today.) Mr. Hess told Weldon that the windshield his company removed was not damaged at the time it was removed.

The clear implication here is that the windshield in the Archives today, which exhibits cracks but not a bullet hole, was intentionally damaged by someone involved in the cover-up AFTER its removal by Hess and Eisenhardt.

https://www.lewrockwell.com/2012/06/douglas-p-horne/photographic-evidence-of-bullet-hole-in-jfk-limousine-windshield-hiding-in-plain-sight/

Quote off

We see that the windshield was replaced yet again on November 27, 1963, after Roy Kellerman had felt it and that is the current one in the National Archives. Why would this be necessary if the original had either NO hole in it or did NOT reflect a shot from the front? Another disturbing incident occurred outside of PH on November 22, 1963, as well.

Sergeant Ellis said he saw a SS agent take the camera away from a small boy and expose the film to the sun after he had taken a few photographs of the limousine outside of PH. Why would the SS act like bullies with a small boy and take the undeveloped film out of his camera if there was NO hole in the windshield and other damage seen on the limousine that differed with the official conclusion? Ellis? account of this event was corroborated by another DPD officer, James W. Courson, so it is NOT just Ellis's word for it.

Finally, in Douglas Horne?s look at this issue we see he studied the film in the DVD version of the TMWKK episode seven and wrote about what he saw.


Quote on

The Stunning Content of ?The Smoking Guns?

This ?B-roll? footage appears between the times of 14:02 and 14:04 on the DVD, and consists of a total of 84 video frames (there are 30 video frames per second in a U.S. television broadcast). The black-and-white images appear to come from standard 16 mm B & W newsreel footage, taken by a stocky man wearing a hat who had approached the Presidential limousine as it was parked outside the Parkland Hospital emergency room (and before the bubble top was installed). The point of view (POV) of the camera was that of someone sitting in the limousine, or rather standing just beside it and to the right side. The camera is pointed at the inside surface of the windshield from behind ? that is the POV. One man in a suit and tie can be seen standing on the front side, or forward of, the windshield, and two DPD motorcycle patrolmen (are they Ellis and Freeman?) can be seen leaning in and examining the windshield. What looks to me like a through-and-through bullet hole is visible in all 84 video frames, left of center on the windshield (adopting the POV of the camera) and approximately halfway down from the top, although these are only rough approximations. The location appears to be entirely consistent with that described by Charles Taylor and George Whitaker (above).

I wish to make something very clear here: you cannot access the images I am describing above in the U-Tube segment in which this episode has been put up on the internet. First, the timing is different in the U-Tube segment (13:08, vice 14:02), because the U-Tube segment was copied from the broadcast. [The factory DVD location of the clip is at a later point in the program, at 14:02, because of advertising material inserted at the beginning of the DVD.] Second, the size of the U-Tube presentation is so small on one?s computer screen, and the resolution so poor in comparison with a big screen HD television, that you can forget seeing this windshield bullet hole on U-Tube. The viewer needs the factory-produced DVD; a good DVD player with functioning frame-by-frame advance; and a big screen, High Definition (1080p) TV. The bullet hole shows up clearly on my 52″ SONY Bravia television. So anyone concerned with doing research here simply must obtain the factory-produced DVD.

https://www.lewrockwell.com/2012/06/douglas-p-horne/photographic-evidence-of-bullet-hole-in-jfk-limousine-windshield-hiding-in-plain-sight/

Quote off

Dr. Horne also gives great advice regarding the WC defenders too.

Quote on

Now, no doubt the ?lone-nutter? crowd ? both those who are in denial of the reality of an American coup in 1963 (because they can?t handle the truth), and the U.S. government?s third-party surrogates in the midst of the research community (whose job it is to cast doubt on all new research pointing to conspiracy and cover-up) ? will react violently to this essay, and that is predictable. But you don?t have to listen to their opinions?EXAMINE THE EVIDENCE YOURSELF AND MAKE UP YOUR OWN MIND.

Quote off

He is exactly right, don?t listen to anyone?examine the evidence for yourself. It is clear that a conspiracy occurred and that is why the WC defenders don?t want to discuss it very often.

Here is a link to Mr. Weldon?s very good article on this issue:


http://www.maryferrell.org/mffweb/archive/viewer/showDoc.do?absPageId=226698

I think we see again there is an abundance of evidence that show the official conclusion of the WC is incorrect, and thus, it is sunk by the evidence.
I think you summed it up fairly accurately!!   Now you have to go one step further and figure out who could have passed in front of the car at the very instant that this hole formed!    Altgens remained stationary throughout this period -  however you can see a man in the Zapruder film "roll" in the grass alongside of him.   So many have tried to say years later that this was Malcom Summers - I beg to differ as he was not there!   This man appeared to be in motion and coming across the front of the limousine. 

I have 2 or 3 people that I believe where the shooters.   I am not sure if the man coming across the front did the final 2 shots or just the one and the other one came from the guy on the steps on the grassy knoll.   The neck shot/1st shot appears to me to come from the person standing on the island on the driver's side.  Why?   Because the hand goes from being stretched out in a clap and then goes behind the back fairly promptly.   The motion coincides with President reaching for his neck.  Who is that person and the one standing right behind him/her?   
https://www.assassinationresearch.com/zfilm/z226.jpg (https://www.assassinationresearch.com/zfilm/z226.jpg)
(https://www.assassinationresearch.com/zfilm/z226.jpg)
Next we see President's move back in his seat and drop his arm at frame Z-323, just after light aberration at Z-322.
https://www.assassinationresearch.com/zfilm/z322.jpg (https://www.assassinationresearch.com/zfilm/z322.jpg)
(https://www.assassinationresearch.com/zfilm/z322.jpg)
Then we see major light aberration in windshield at z330.   Which certainly looks like glass splinters being picked up by Zapruder's Camera.
https://www.assassinationresearch.com/zfilm/z330.jpg (https://www.assassinationresearch.com/zfilm/z330.jpg)
(https://www.assassinationresearch.com/zfilm/z330.jpg)
https://www.assassinationresearch.com/zfilm/z331.jpg (https://www.assassinationresearch.com/zfilm/z331.jpg)
(https://www.assassinationresearch.com/zfilm/z331.jpg)
Then we get to see the man who looks to be responsible for this deed!  Everyone else around him is motionless - he is NOT!!
https://www.assassinationresearch.com/zfilm/z346.jpg (https://www.assassinationresearch.com/zfilm/z346.jpg)
(https://www.assassinationresearch.com/zfilm/z346.jpg)
I don't have an image for the 3rd guy, but he is doing the sidestep on the grassy knoll steps which appears to be a "lead in move" to get timing right while lining up for a shot .   That can be seen in the Muchmore Film. His right hand was stretched out and then retracted. The guy behind him remains motionless while the other starts to take off at a run - very strange reaction by all 3, all so different which makes it bizarre!
Title: Re: Bullet hole in windshield on JFK's Limo
Post by: Bill Brown on August 29, 2018, 06:27:38 AM
I can't solve your reading comprehension issues.

So you agree then that what you posted has no meaning.
Title: Re: Bullet hole in windshield on JFK's Limo
Post by: Rob Caprio on August 30, 2018, 01:38:12 AM
So you agree then that what you posted has no meaning.

You wish. It was clear to everyone who doesn't have a reading comprehension issue like you.
Title: Re: Bullet hole in windshield on JFK's Limo
Post by: Bill Brown on August 30, 2018, 06:07:25 PM
You wish. It was clear to everyone who doesn't have a reading comprehension issue like you.

Okay then.  Explain it to me.

What are you trying to say by posting the portion of Kellerman's testimony (below)?

Kellerman did not see the tiny shell fragments in the limo as the limo was speeding to Parkland.  So what?

Cool, where can I find the photos showing the bullet fragments in place?

Is a lack of photos showing the fragments in place supposed to prove that the fragments truly were not found inside the limo?

Mr. SPECTER. And did you ever observe any bullet fragments in the car at rest after the shooting?

Mr. KELLERMAN. No, sir.
Title: Re: Bullet hole in windshield on JFK's Limo
Post by: John Iacoletti on August 30, 2018, 06:49:59 PM
I guess we're just supposed to take it on faith that those particular fragments were in the limo.
Title: Re: Bullet hole in windshield on JFK's Limo
Post by: Bill Brown on August 30, 2018, 08:37:09 PM
I guess we're just supposed to take it on faith that those particular fragments were in the limo.

Yes, since they were turned over to some "unknown person", right?   :D
Title: Re: Bullet hole in windshield on JFK's Limo
Post by: Steve Logan on August 30, 2018, 08:50:26 PM
Yes, since they were turned over to some "unknown person", right?   :D
The newbs can't appreciate that one.
Title: Re: Bullet hole in windshield on JFK's Limo
Post by: John Iacoletti on August 30, 2018, 09:15:00 PM
Yes, since they were turned over to some "unknown person", right?   :D

Bill Brown hates it when his own word games get turned around back on him.

"The man with the rifle".   :D
Title: Re: Bullet hole in windshield on JFK's Limo
Post by: Rob Caprio on August 30, 2018, 11:04:24 PM
Okay then.  Explain it to me.

What are you trying to say by posting the portion of Kellerman's testimony (below)?

Kellerman did not see the tiny shell fragments in the limo as the limo was speeding to Parkland.  So what?

Quit making excuses. He was a trained agent and he saw NO fragments at his feet. He was corroborated by Greer as well.

Mr. SPECTER. Did you observe any bullets or fragments of bullets at rest in the car after the shooting terminated?

Mr. GREER. No, sir; I didn't, I left the car at the hospital and I didn't see it any more until the next day.

You're sunk.
Title: Re: Bullet hole in windshield on JFK's Limo
Post by: Jake Maxwell on August 31, 2018, 02:02:11 AM
Has it ever been suggested that the windshield bullet was intended for Bill Greer?
Title: Re: Bullet hole in windshield on JFK's Limo
Post by: Jake Maxwell on August 31, 2018, 02:39:38 AM
Are we even certain these two bullet cracks are the same?

(https://image.ibb.co/cr407p/Screen_Shot_2018_08_30_at_9_16_36_PM.png)
Title: Re: Bullet hole in windshield on JFK's Limo
Post by: Jerry Organ on August 31, 2018, 01:57:08 PM
Are we even certain these two bullet cracks are the same?

(https://image.ibb.co/cr407p/Screen_Shot_2018_08_30_at_9_16_36_PM.png)

Different lighting, camera angle. Maybe the cracks spread during the time between the taking of the photos.

(https://imgc.allpostersimages.com/img/print/posters/alfred-eisenstaedt-president-john-f-kennedy-working-at-his-desk-in-the-oval-office-of-the-white-house_a-G-3597916-4990704.jpg)  (http://www.findingdulcinea.com/docroot/dulcinea/fd_images/news/on-this-day/November/Kennedy-Defeats-Nixon-in-Presidential-Election/news/0/image.jpg)  (https://i.etsystatic.com/13037325/d/il/a9a171/1085907849/il_340x270.1085907849_hqco.jpg)
Title: Re: Bullet hole in windshield on JFK's Limo
Post by: Royell Storing on August 31, 2018, 10:15:27 PM
Different lighting, camera angle. Maybe the cracks spread during the time between the taking of the photos.

(https://imgc.allpostersimages.com/img/print/posters/alfred-eisenstaedt-president-john-f-kennedy-working-at-his-desk-in-the-oval-office-of-the-white-house_a-G-3597916-4990704.jpg)  (http://www.findingdulcinea.com/docroot/dulcinea/fd_images/news/on-this-day/November/Kennedy-Defeats-Nixon-in-Presidential-Election/news/0/image.jpg)  (https://i.etsystatic.com/13037325/d/il/a9a171/1085907849/il_340x270.1085907849_hqco.jpg)

    Yeah. And maybe we are looking at a completely different windshield.
Title: Re: Bullet hole in windshield on JFK's Limo
Post by: Jake Maxwell on September 01, 2018, 01:25:01 AM
    Yeah. And maybe we are looking at a completely different windshield.
I really think this would be an easy thing to settle, if we could get a better picture of the windshield now housed in the national archives... If anyone gets a good HD picture of it, please post... and we'll compare... It should settle a lot of issues... Glass specialists can tell if it came from the front or rear... If from the front... game-changer...!
Title: Re: Bullet hole in windshield on JFK's Limo
Post by: Rob Caprio on September 01, 2018, 01:34:22 AM
I really think this would be an easy thing to settle, if we could get a better picture of the windshield now housed in the national archives... If anyone gets a good HD picture of it, please post... and we'll compare... It should settle a lot of issues... Glass specialists can tell if it came from the front or rear... If from the front... game-changer...!

If you read the evidence then you realize that there was no crack in the windshield.

Mr. SPECTER. Did you observe any crack in the windshield as the President's automobile was being driven from the point of assassination to the hospital?

Mr. KELLERMAN. I did not.

Mr. SPECTER. Did you observe it at any time prior to the time you saw the automobile in the White House garage on or before November 27?

Mr. KELLERMAN. I did not, sir.
Title: Re: Bullet hole in windshield on JFK's Limo
Post by: Jerry Organ on September 01, 2018, 01:35:19 AM
I really think this would be an easy thing to settle, if we could get a better picture of the windshield now housed in the national archives... If anyone gets a good HD picture of it, please post... and we'll compare... It should settle a lot of issues... Glass specialists can tell if it came from the front or rear... If from the front... game-changer...!

We already know that. It struck the inside surface.

How about  using the regular font size?
Title: Re: Bullet hole in windshield on JFK's Limo
Post by: Jake Maxwell on September 01, 2018, 03:12:09 AM
How about  using the regular font size?
I have a friend on here who has difficulty with smaller type... We've read testimony (a little confusing) about the crack in the windshield... The pic taken at the hospital, looks different from the one in the archives IMO... I'd like to examine more closely... A good HD picture would help....
Title: Re: Bullet hole in windshield on JFK's Limo
Post by: Jerry Organ on September 01, 2018, 03:45:07 AM
I have a friend on here who has difficulty with smaller type... We've read testimony (a little confusing) about the crack in the windshield... The pic taken at the hospital, looks different from the one in the archives IMO... I'd like to examine more closely... A good HD picture would help....

Your friend may be able to increase the text-only on webpages. For example, in the Firefox browser, it's:

"Alt" button (to bring up the menu at the top of the page, if it's not there already,

View --> Zoom --> Zoom Text Only

(http://www.mhiengineering.com/images/size_win_ff.jpg)

You then use the keyboard-combination "Control +" to increase the text size (you may have to hit the keyboard-combination repeatedly until it's like you need) and it'll stay that way until you "Reset" it.

Now the text in all the posts will be larger.
_____

You can also set a default text size in Firefox Options (I use 14 point but you'll want something bigger).
Title: Re: Bullet hole in windshield on JFK's Limo
Post by: John Iacoletti on September 02, 2018, 01:47:20 AM
I really think this would be an easy thing to settle, if we could get a better picture of the windshield now housed in the national archives... If anyone gets a good HD picture of it, please post... and we'll compare... It should settle a lot of issues... Glass specialists can tell if it came from the front or rear... If from the front... game-changer...!

You shouldn't necessarily assume that the windshield in the National Archives was on the limo that day.  George Whitaker, Sr., a senior manager at the Ford Motor Company?s Rouge Plant in Detroit, Michigan said that they were instructed on November 25 to replace the windshield.
Title: Re: Bullet hole in windshield on JFK's Limo
Post by: Jake Maxwell on September 02, 2018, 03:35:02 PM
You shouldn't necessarily assume that the windshield in the National Archives was on the limo that day.  George Whitaker, Sr., a senior manager at the Ford Motor Company?s Rouge Plant in Detroit, Michigan said that they were instructed on November 25 to replace the windshield.
John, if this image is a legitimate image of the crack in JFK's limo windshield, it would seem that it would be easy to make a comparison of the two... If they don't match, and we're sure the image below is legit, then we've got confirmation of a conspiracy. I would really like to know 1) is the image below legitimate and 2) can the two cracks be compared...
Oh boy, it would really settle some things for us...

(https://image.ibb.co/cHs2WK/Screen_Shot_2018_08_05_at_2_52_48_PM.png)
(https://image.ibb.co/dGZTFK/576877618_1024x1024.jpg)
Title: Re: Bullet hole in windshield on JFK's Limo
Post by: Steve Logan on September 02, 2018, 04:31:19 PM
John, if this image is a legitimate image of the crack in JFK's limo windshield, it would seem that it would be easy to make a comparison of the two... If they don't match, and we're sure the image below is legit, then we've got confirmation of a conspiracy. I would really like to know 1) is the image below legitimate and 2) can the two cracks be compared...
Oh boy, it would really settle some things for us...

(https://image.ibb.co/cHs2WK/Screen_Shot_2018_08_05_at_2_52_48_PM.png)
(https://image.ibb.co/dGZTFK/576877618_1024x1024.jpg)
Are you aware of the technique used to remove that windshield?
Title: Re: Bullet hole in windshield on JFK's Limo
Post by: Jerry Organ on September 02, 2018, 05:05:55 PM
John, if this image is a legitimate image of the crack in JFK's limo windshield, it would seem that it would be easy to make a comparison of the two... If they don't match, and we're sure the image below is legit, then we've got confirmation of a conspiracy. I would really like to know 1) is the image below legitimate and 2) can the two cracks be compared...
Oh boy, it would really settle some things for us...

(https://image.ibb.co/cHs2WK/Screen_Shot_2018_08_05_at_2_52_48_PM.png)


Start with a graphics program that has transparent layers, free transform and image flip.

Free on-line one at Pixlr (http://pixlr.com/editor/). (Note: Text tool doesn't work in browser private-mode.)
Title: Re: Bullet hole in windshield on JFK's Limo
Post by: Jake Maxwell on September 02, 2018, 07:07:11 PM
Start with a graphics program that has transparent layers, free transform and image flip.

Free on-line one at Pixlr (http://pixlr.com/editor/). (Note: Text tool doesn't work in browser private-mode.)
Jerry, I've tried some of this with a Power Point program... However, the quality of the photos are different as well as the angle...
Again, a good up close HD image of the National Archives windshield would determine if these are the very same bullet cracks.
Also, an up close examination would allow a glass expert to determine if the bullet crack came from the front or the back of the windshield.
If it came from the front, two questions arise: 1) Who made the shot that cracked the windshield 2) Was the shot intended for SA Bill Greer, who might have known too much about the assassination details (the same reason it could be claimed Oswald was killed... to shut him up)

(https://image.ibb.co/bZisue/Screen_Shot_2018_09_02_at_1_55_46_PM.png)
(https://image.ibb.co/jERsSz/Screen_Shot_2018_09_02_at_1_54_54_PM.png)
Title: Re: Bullet hole in windshield on JFK's Limo
Post by: Mitch Todd on September 03, 2018, 12:26:34 AM
Jerry, I've tried some of this with a Power Point program... However, the quality of the photos are different as well as the angle...
Again, a good up close HD image of the National Archives windshield would determine if these are the very same bullet cracks.
Also, an up close examination would allow a glass expert to determine if the bullet crack came from the front or the back of the windshield.
If it came from the front, two questions arise: 1) Who made the shot that cracked the windshield 2) Was the shot intended for SA Bill Greer, who might have known too much about the assassination details (the same reason it could be claimed Oswald was killed... to shut him up)

(https://image.ibb.co/bZisue/Screen_Shot_2018_09_02_at_1_55_46_PM.png)
(https://image.ibb.co/jERsSz/Screen_Shot_2018_09_02_at_1_54_54_PM.png)

I think Barb Junkarinnen and Josiah Thompson collaborated on an article about exactly this issue. Try googling for it.
Title: Re: Bullet hole in windshield on JFK's Limo
Post by: Nicholas Turner on September 03, 2018, 03:28:18 PM
Analysis by Barb Junkkarinen concludes that there was no through hole in the windscreen but rather damage to the inner surface which remains consistent in the different photographs, disproving the windscreen switch idea. An interesting read.
Title: Re: Bullet hole in windshield on JFK's Limo
Post by: Rob Caprio on September 03, 2018, 05:07:07 PM
Analysis by Barb Junkkarinen concludes that there was no through hole in the windscreen but rather damage to the inner surface which remains consistent in the different photographs, disproving the windscreen switch idea. An interesting read.

She also thinks that there was a clip present in the TSBD when the rifle was found. She wasn't near the windshield on November 22, 1963, like the witnesses that saw a hole were.
Title: Re: Bullet hole in windshield on JFK's Limo
Post by: Nicholas Turner on September 03, 2018, 05:44:53 PM
She also thinks that there was a clip present in the TSBD when the rifle was found. She wasn't near the windshield on November 22, 1963, like the witnesses that saw a hole were.

No, she was assessing the evidence and the witness statements. Always a good exercise.
Title: Re: Bullet hole in windshield on JFK's Limo
Post by: Bill Chapman on September 03, 2018, 06:05:10 PM
You shouldn't necessarily assume that the windshield in the National Archives was on the limo that day.  George Whitaker, Sr., a senior manager at the Ford Motor Company?s Rouge Plant in Detroit, Michigan said that they were instructed on November 25 to replace the windshield.

Always with the sinister motive, eh John.
Tell us what happened to the replaced windshield
Title: Re: Bullet hole in windshield on JFK's Limo
Post by: Rob Caprio on September 03, 2018, 06:16:17 PM
No, she was assessing the evidence and the witness statements. Always a good exercise.

Then I have no idea what she was "assessing" as numerous witnesses described a bullet hole in the windshield of the limousine. Most of them were trained observers too.
Title: Re: Bullet hole in windshield on JFK's Limo
Post by: Nicholas Turner on September 03, 2018, 06:41:07 PM
Then I have no idea what she was "assessing" as numerous witnesses described a bullet hole in the windshield of the limousine. Most of them were trained observers too.

Why not read her assessment before dismissing it then?
Title: Re: Bullet hole in windshield on JFK's Limo
Post by: Mike Orr on September 03, 2018, 09:23:39 PM
So Mr. George Whitaker Sr. said in writing that there was a hole in the windshield but never wanted anyone to know that he said that until he was dead and gone. I find that to be a very smart move on Mr. Whitaker's part . It game him more time to live, unlike Dorothy Kilgallen who left life a little earlier !
Title: Re: Bullet hole in windshield on JFK's Limo
Post by: Nicholas Turner on September 03, 2018, 09:34:57 PM
So Mr. George Whitaker Sr. said in writing that there was a hole in the windshield but never wanted anyone to know that he said that until he was dead and gone. I find that to be a very smart move on Mr. Whitaker's part . It game him more time to live, unlike Dorothy Kilgallen who left life a little earlier !

Any evidence that what Mr Whitaker said is true? Any evidence that Dorothy Kilgallen's death was suspicious? Any evidence here death was connected to the JFK assassination?
Title: Re: Bullet hole in windshield on JFK's Limo
Post by: Jake Maxwell on September 03, 2018, 10:55:01 PM
Analysis by Barb Junkkarinen concludes that there was no through hole in the windscreen but rather damage to the inner surface which remains consistent in the different photographs, disproving the windscreen switch idea. An interesting read.
Damage to the inner surface would seem to be consistent with a sharp blow from the opposite side...
Title: Re: Bullet hole in windshield on JFK's Limo
Post by: Jake Maxwell on September 03, 2018, 11:05:33 PM
I would think that a crack in a piece of glass is as distinct as a fingerprint... We seem to have a pretty good picture (if legit) of the windshield crack from 1963... and allegedly we have the actual windshield that was removed from the limo in the National Archives. A good closeup HD image of the windshield in the National Archives would allow a good enough comparison that would, perhaps, help us determine if the two windshield images are from the very same windshield. What I have seen so far says they are very possibly not from the same windshield....
Title: Re: Bullet hole in windshield on JFK's Limo
Post by: Mitch Todd on September 03, 2018, 11:44:43 PM
So Mr. George Whitaker Sr. said in writing that there was a hole in the windshield but never wanted anyone to know that he said that until he was dead and gone. I find that to be a very smart move on Mr. Whitaker's part . It game him more time to live, unlike Dorothy Kilgallen who left life a little earlier!
Read what Pam McElwain Brown, who knows more about ss100x than anyone else, has written about Whitaker and the limo. She found that there was no "repair garage" in Building B in '63, contra Whitaker's claims. She also notes that the limo had a standard '61 Continental windshield from the day it rolled off the line at Wixom until it was rebuilt after the assassination. It wasn't "made special" as Whitaker would have you believe, and a replacement didn't need to be custom-made, either. She's noted that the limo was built in Wixom, Michigan, had its chassis stretched at the Ford Experimental Garage at the Ford Proving Ground, and all the extra coachwork and interior were custom-made to fit by Hess and Eisenhardt in Ohio. Ford generally, and River Rouge in particular, didn't have the expertise to replace the interior; that's why it had been farmed out to H&E in the first place. There are too many problems with Whitaker's story to take it seriously, and that's why he didn't want to see it public in the first place. He simply didn't want to live to eat his words.
Title: Re: Bullet hole in windshield on JFK's Limo
Post by: Nicholas Turner on September 04, 2018, 12:57:54 AM
Damage to the inner surface would seem to be consistent with a sharp blow from the opposite side...

I don't see why. A bullet fragment hitting the inner surface is more likely isn't it.
Title: Re: Bullet hole in windshield on JFK's Limo
Post by: Jake Maxwell on September 04, 2018, 03:05:41 AM
I don't see why. A bullet fragment hitting the inner surface is more likely isn't it.
I don't think I can explain the physics of this... probably something to do with one of Newton's laws... All I know is that I've seen BB's hit glass, and the glass chips out on the opposite side... I suppose others have had that same experience and could confirm this...
Title: Re: Bullet hole in windshield on JFK's Limo
Post by: Rob Caprio on September 04, 2018, 03:10:26 AM
Why not read her assessment before dismissing it then?

No thanks as she showed her true colors on ACJ.
Title: Re: Bullet hole in windshield on JFK's Limo
Post by: Rob Caprio on September 04, 2018, 03:12:37 AM
I don't see why. A bullet fragment hitting the inner surface is more likely isn't it.

What bullet would this fragment have come from?
Title: Re: Bullet hole in windshield on JFK's Limo
Post by: Nicholas Turner on September 04, 2018, 03:46:44 AM
I don't think I can explain the physics of this... probably something to do with one of Newton's laws... All I know is that I've seen BB's hit glass, and the glass chips out on the opposite side... I suppose others have had that same experience and could confirm this...

What is a BB?
Title: Re: Bullet hole in windshield on JFK's Limo
Post by: Mitch Todd on September 04, 2018, 03:51:40 AM
No thanks as she showed her true colors on ACJ.
You mean, by being a thoughtful commentator and good moderator?
Title: Re: Bullet hole in windshield on JFK's Limo
Post by: John Mytton on September 04, 2018, 03:59:44 AM
I'll repeat this again because it's so important, the windshield on JFK's limo was on full display from virtually any angle could have been penetrated from either side , so why would anyone bother covering anything up? Also consider that one of the fragments did almost penetrate the glass and another left a solid indentation on the steel framework.

JohnM
Title: Re: Bullet hole in windshield on JFK's Limo
Post by: Mitch Todd on September 04, 2018, 04:05:29 AM
What is a BB?

a .177 caliber (4.5mm) round metal pellet commonly fired by air guns.
Title: Re: Bullet hole in windshield on JFK's Limo
Post by: Nicholas Turner on September 04, 2018, 04:08:25 AM
What bullet would this fragment have come from?

Lead that was extruded from the second bullet, not a fragment.
Title: Re: Bullet hole in windshield on JFK's Limo
Post by: Nicholas Turner on September 04, 2018, 04:13:14 AM
a .177 caliber (4.5mm) round metal pellet commonly fired by air guns.

Okay, thanks. No experience of that.

I don't see how the outer surface would be undamaged and smooth whilst the inner surface showed the damage it did if the impact was on the outer surface.
Title: Re: Bullet hole in windshield on JFK's Limo
Post by: Nicholas Turner on September 04, 2018, 04:17:00 AM
I would think that a crack in a piece of glass is as distinct as a fingerprint... We seem to have a pretty good picture (if legit) of the windshield crack from 1963... and allegedly we have the actual windshield that was removed from the limo in the National Archives. A good closeup HD image of the windshield in the National Archives would allow a good enough comparison that would, perhaps, help us determine if the two windshield images are from the very same windshield. What I have seen so far says they are very possibly not from the same windshield....

The altgens photograph shows damage but no through hole. Why is the condition of the windscreen in the National Archives important?
Title: Re: Bullet hole in windshield on JFK's Limo
Post by: Mike Orr on September 04, 2018, 04:38:09 AM
A through and through bullet hole from front to back is a lot different than a crack in the windshield. A blasted out back of the head is a little different than a right side and top of the head blowout on JFK. A neat frontal neck wound is a little different than a grisly mess in the front of the neck at Humes " move my wounds " and Ford's movement of a back wound with no exit , turning into a neck wound at the base of the back of the neck which now all of a sudden allowed a Single Bullet to make its way through JFK and JC and end up in JC's thigh but then make it's way out of JC's thigh and on to a stretcher and become the Magic Bullet known as CE 399 . 26 Volumes to make it look like LHO ( Maggies Drawers ) , shooting a piece of sheet rifle known as the Mannlicher Carcano killing JFK and then of course killing J. D. Tippit with a piece of sheet revolver . You couldn't sell this BS to the National Enquirer . The Warren Commission Report can be found in the fiction section of the Library under " Totally Unbelievable " ! The Agent who was made to recant the hole in the windshield story and turn that hole into a cracked windshield story is right there with Ford , Humes and J. Edgar Hoover ( We have the shooter on both counts ) NCIS and Jethro would have had a heyday with this case .
Title: Re: Bullet hole in windshield on JFK's Limo
Post by: Nicholas Turner on September 04, 2018, 04:45:54 AM
A through and through bullet hole from front to back is a lot different than a crack in the windshield. A blasted out back of the head is a little different than a right side and top of the head blowout on JFK. A neat frontal neck wound is a little different than a grisly mess in the front of the neck at Humes " move my wounds " and Ford's movement of a back wound with no exit , turning into a neck wound at the base of the back of the neck which now all of a sudden allowed a Single Bullet to make its way through JFK and JC and end up in JC's thigh but then make it's way out of JC's thigh and on to a stretcher and become the Magic Bullet known as CE 399 . 26 Volumes to make it look like LHO ( Maggies Drawers ) , shooting a piece of sheet rifle known as the Mannlicher Carcano killing JFK and then of course killing J. D. Tippit with a piece of sheet revolver . You couldn't sell this BS to the National Enquirer . The Warren Commission Report can be found in the fiction section of the Library under " Totally Unbelievable " ! The Agent who was made to recant the hole in the windshield story and turn that hole into a cracked windshield story is right there with Ford , Humes and J. Edgar Hoover ( We have the shooter on both counts ) NCIS and Jethro would have had a heyday with this case .

Your view of course, not one I recognise. I agree that the Warren Commission report was hugely flawed. As for the rest, don't see it.
Title: Re: Bullet hole in windshield on JFK's Limo
Post by: Rob Caprio on September 04, 2018, 02:57:19 PM
You mean, by being a thoughtful commentator and good moderator?

Good one. 😂🤣😀
Title: Re: Bullet hole in windshield on JFK's Limo
Post by: Rob Caprio on September 04, 2018, 02:59:21 PM
Lead that was extruded from the second bullet, not a fragment.

Which one was the second one? What did it hit?
Title: Re: Bullet hole in windshield on JFK's Limo
Post by: Patrick Jackson on September 04, 2018, 03:38:12 PM
Those seeing a hole in the windshield can exactly point where the hole is?
(https://s8.postimg.cc/ozahdxbed/33-3423a.jpg)

There is no hole in the windshield.
Title: Re: Bullet hole in windshield on JFK's Limo
Post by: Royell Storing on September 04, 2018, 03:56:09 PM
Those seeing a hole in the windshield can exactly point where the hole is?
(https://s8.postimg.cc/ozahdxbed/33-3423a.jpg)

There is no hole in the windshield.

    There is No hole in THIS windshield.
Title: Re: Bullet hole in windshield on JFK's Limo
Post by: Jake Maxwell on September 04, 2018, 04:42:56 PM
Patrick, I believe that is the best photo of the windshield available (I assume from the National Archives). I did a Powerpoint 180 flip to match up to the Limo photo from 1963 (which I assume is what we see on the right side panel) - and also changed the angle on the Archives photo to try to match them up... There seem to be enough characteristics to say they are the same windshield, in my opinion.
As Royell commented, neither of these seems to have a bullet hole (at least not one the size of a pencil or so). There does seem to be some material chipped off, which appears to be on the inside, suggesting to me that whatever struck the windshield likely came from the outside... Of course, a glass expert would need to examine and confirm..

(https://image.ibb.co/eGWYnz/Screen_Shot_2018_09_04_at_11_29_59_AM.png)
(https://image.ibb.co/jRKYLK/Screen_Shot_2018_09_04_at_11_44_45_AM.png)
Title: Re: Bullet hole in windshield on JFK's Limo
Post by: Patrick Jackson on September 04, 2018, 05:07:20 PM
Patrick, I believe that is the best photo of the windshield available (I assume from the National Archives). I did a Powerpoint 180 flip to match up to the Limo photo from 1963 (which I assume is on the right side panel) - and also changed the angle on the Archives photo to try to match them up... There seem to be enough characteristics to say they are the same windshield, in my opinion. As Royell commented, neither of these seems to have a bullet hole (at least not one the size of a pencil or so). There does seem to be some material chipped off, which appears to be on the inside, suggesting to me that whatever struck the windshield likely came from the outside... Of course, a glass expert would need to examine and confirm..
(https://image.ibb.co/eGWYnz/Screen_Shot_2018_09_04_at_11_29_59_AM.png)
(https://image.ibb.co/jRKYLK/Screen_Shot_2018_09_04_at_11_44_45_AM.png)
JFK limo windshield had three layers, glass-plastic-glass. I had no doubt there is no hole in it but it is very hard to conclude if the damage is from the inside or outside. I tend to believe it is from the outside. In the area of the impact both glass layers cracked but but there is no hole, at least not a bullet hole. If there is a hole it is 1-2mm, not more than that. Is there a procedure ordinary citizen to ask NARA to see and check the windshield? It would bring the final conclusion to the JFK assassination researchers.
Title: Re: Bullet hole in windshield on JFK's Limo
Post by: Jerry Organ on September 04, 2018, 11:13:46 PM
(http://i66.tinypic.com/2vsqlhg.jpg)

Good work, Jake. I tried to see how it might look at/close to scale.
Title: Re: Bullet hole in windshield on JFK's Limo
Post by: Patrick Jackson on September 04, 2018, 11:43:44 PM
Patrick, I believe that is the best photo of the windshield available (I assume from the National Archives). I did a Powerpoint 180 flip to match up to the Limo photo from 1963 (which I assume is what we see on the right side panel) - and also changed the angle on the Archives photo to try to match them up... There seem to be enough characteristics to say they are the same windshield, in my opinion.
As Royell commented, neither of these seems to have a bullet hole (at least not one the size of a pencil or so). There does seem to be some material chipped off, which appears to be on the inside, suggesting to me that whatever struck the windshield likely came from the outside... Of course, a glass expert would need to examine and confirm..

(https://image.ibb.co/eGWYnz/Screen_Shot_2018_09_04_at_11_29_59_AM.png)
(https://image.ibb.co/jRKYLK/Screen_Shot_2018_09_04_at_11_44_45_AM.png)
Jake, by flipping the NARA image and placing it next to the White house garage photo, you have done one great thing, proved that the damage was OUTSIDE!!! You can clearly see the depth of the lines. Damage and cracks were on the outside glass layer of the windshield. When there is a crack on the three layer windshield, crack is usually on one glass layer, does not transfer to both glass layers and this was the casa with the Lincoln windshield. Crack lines are only on the outside glass layer.
Title: Re: Bullet hole in windshield on JFK's Limo
Post by: Jake Maxwell on September 05, 2018, 12:15:41 AM
Thanks Jerry... Patrick's posting of a very clear image gave me some hope that a visual comparison might be useful...
Title: Re: Bullet hole in windshield on JFK's Limo
Post by: Rob Caprio on September 05, 2018, 02:09:55 AM
Those seeing a hole in the windshield can exactly point where the hole is?
(https://s8.postimg.cc/ozahdxbed/33-3423a.jpg)

There is no hole in the windshield.

Who knows where and when this was taken? Witnesses that saw the windshield on November 22, 1963, after the assassination saw a bullet hole.
Title: Re: Bullet hole in windshield on JFK's Limo
Post by: Jerry Freeman on September 05, 2018, 02:22:00 AM
Who knows where and when this was taken? 
I agree. Where did that photo come from again?
Is that picture logged [officially] into the Warren Report Exhibits?
If not..it is just a random photo of anything.
Title: Re: Bullet hole in windshield on JFK's Limo
Post by: Patrick Jackson on September 05, 2018, 03:13:24 AM
I agree. Where did that photo come from again?
Is that picture logged [officially] into the Warren Report Exhibits?
If not..it is just a random photo of anything.
Gentlemen, do your homework:

https://catalog.archives.gov/id/305143
Title: Re: Bullet hole in windshield on JFK's Limo
Post by: Jerry Freeman on September 05, 2018, 03:53:51 AM
Gentlemen, do your homework:

https://catalog.archives.gov/id/305143
We can spend all night googling around or...
You could provide a link with a picture...that's what we do here [though I forget at times]
 I would prefer to see a close up photo of the limo windshield while it was intact at the Dallas hospital.
No doubt a bullet caused the damage.
Title: Re: Bullet hole in windshield on JFK's Limo
Post by: Patrick Jackson on September 05, 2018, 04:09:00 AM
We can spend all night googling around or...
You could provide a link with a picture...that's what we do here [though I forget at times]
 I would prefer to see a close up photo of the limo windshield while it was intact at the Dallas hospital.
No doubt a bullet caused the damage.
I have provided the link to you, for NARA site.
So, now you do not believe that the windshield at NARA is the one taken off the limo? Were there two windshields, one with the hole and one without? You believe to witneses stating there was a hole?
Title: Re: Bullet hole in windshield on JFK's Limo
Post by: John Iacoletti on September 05, 2018, 04:04:43 PM
Always with the sinister motive, eh John.
Tell us what happened to the replaced windshield

Aren't you ascribing a sinister motive to George Whitaker, Sr.?
Title: Re: Bullet hole in windshield on JFK's Limo
Post by: John Iacoletti on September 05, 2018, 04:12:43 PM
I have provided the link to you, for NARA site.
So, now you do not believe that the windshield at NARA is the one taken off the limo? Were there two windshields, one with the hole and one without?

That's what George Whitaker, Sr. said.

Quote
You believe to witneses stating there was a hole?

SIX witnesses said there was a hole.
Title: Re: Bullet hole in windshield on JFK's Limo
Post by: Royell Storing on September 05, 2018, 05:14:48 PM
Gentlemen, do your homework:

https://catalog.archives.gov/id/305143

     Just curious, but if we are seeing the windshield as it sits INSIDE the wooden crate, Exactly what are we seeing through the windshield/underneath the windshield? It is difficult to differentiate between where the crack(s) stretching out from the epicenter end and whatever that is beneath the windshield begins. This is why NARA is known for storing and sometimes misplacing items such as the Ark Of The Covenant.   
Title: Re: Bullet hole in windshield on JFK's Limo
Post by: Jerry Freeman on September 05, 2018, 09:30:21 PM
I have provided the link to you, for NARA site.
So, now you do not believe that the windshield at NARA is the one taken off the limo? Were there two windshields, one with the hole and one without? You believe to witneses stating there was a hole?
The link that I requested. Thanks loads.
Did I mention anything about 'not believing' ?
Quote
I would prefer to see a close up photo of the limo windshield while it was [still] intact at the Dallas hospital.
No doubt a bullet caused the damage.
I understand that the Secret Service would not permit anyone anywhere near that limo at the hospital.
They were more protective of everything when the president was dead than they ever were when he was living and breathing it seems. Pretty shtty IMO.
Title: Re: Bullet hole in windshield on JFK's Limo
Post by: Royell Storing on September 05, 2018, 10:29:20 PM
The link that I requested. Thanks loads.
Did I mention anything about 'not believing' ?I understand that the Secret Service would not permit anyone anywhere near that limo at the hospital.
They were more protective of everything when the president was dead than they ever were when he was living and breathing it seems. Pretty shtty IMO.

    SS was afraid someone might get injured if they stepped into that scrubbing bucket they were using on the Limo.
Title: Re: Bullet hole in windshield on JFK's Limo
Post by: Rob Caprio on September 05, 2018, 10:34:17 PM
Gentlemen, do your homework:

https://catalog.archives.gov/id/305143

I have. That is why I know that there was a bullet hole on November 22 in the windshield.
Title: Re: Bullet hole in windshield on JFK's Limo
Post by: Patrick Jackson on September 06, 2018, 12:04:21 AM
Check this 1961 Lincoln Continental bullet hole.
(https://s26.postimg.cc/n1rdmffdl/Screenshot_20180906-005457_2.png)
Same should be visible on JFK limo but it is not, right?
Title: Re: Bullet hole in windshield on JFK's Limo
Post by: Royell Storing on September 06, 2018, 12:27:47 AM
Check this 1961 Lincoln Continental bullet hole.
(https://s26.postimg.cc/n1rdmffdl/Screenshot_20180906-005457_2.png)
Same should be visible on JFK limo but it is not, right?

        And how do we Know with that is a "Bullet" hole ?? A Tent Pole would fit into that gaping hole.
Title: Re: Bullet hole in windshield on JFK's Limo
Post by: Mitch Todd on September 06, 2018, 02:19:09 AM
     Just curious, but if we are seeing the windshield as it sits INSIDE the wooden crate, Exactly what are we seeing through the windshield/underneath the windshield? It is difficult to differentiate between where the crack(s) stretching out from the epicenter end and whatever that is beneath the windshield begins. This is why NARA is known for storing and sometimes misplacing items such as the Ark Of The Covenant.
It looks like they put sheets of white museum board behind the windshield in that photo. I suspect that was done to make the damage stand out in the photo.
Title: Re: Bullet hole in windshield on JFK's Limo
Post by: Patrick Jackson on September 06, 2018, 02:20:47 AM
        And how do we Know with that is a "Bullet" hole ?? A Tent Pole would fit into that gaping hole.
Person selling this Lincoln says it is a bullet hole. It does not prove anything of course. This must be very old hole where the glass chips fell off over the long period the time widening the hole to almost the whole inch.
In any case, seem that before we prove if there was a hole or not, we must connect all the photos and prove it is the same windshield.
Title: Re: Bullet hole in windshield on JFK's Limo
Post by: Mitch Todd on September 06, 2018, 02:22:37 AM
Check this 1961 Lincoln Continental bullet hole.
(https://s26.postimg.cc/n1rdmffdl/Screenshot_20180906-005457_2.png)
Same should be visible on JFK limo but it is not, right?
Are you sure its a bullet hole? at doesn't look like a bullet hole. A bullet hole in auto safety glass looks like one of these:

(https://interactives.dallasnews.com/2016/chapa/images/bullet_holes_photo-1800.jpg)
Title: Re: Bullet hole in windshield on JFK's Limo
Post by: Patrick Jackson on September 06, 2018, 02:27:11 AM
It looks like they put sheets of white museum board behind the windshield in that photo. I suspect that was done to make the damage stand out in the photo.
True. Photographer needed white background so placed sheets of white paper or similar behind the glass or it is the part of original wraping. If there was no white paper behind, background would be wood making the cracks invisible. Apart from narrow impact area crack all other occured when the windshield was removed from the body frame.
Title: Re: Bullet hole in windshield on JFK's Limo
Post by: Patrick Jackson on September 06, 2018, 02:34:10 AM
Are you sure its a bullet hole? at doesn't look like a bullet hole. A bullet hole in auto safety glass looks like one of these:

(https://interactives.dallasnews.com/2016/chapa/images/bullet_holes_photo-1800.jpg)
I cannot be sure, can only believe what the seller says:
https://www.classiccarsseller.com/2015/05/03/1961-lincoln-continental-blackred/ (https://www.classiccarsseller.com/2015/05/03/1961-lincoln-continental-blackred/)

Check other photos where you can see white circle around the hole, same as your photo. The photo I have published was made where there was no Sun so it is not visible.

You can find many photos of gun holes in three layer windshield and almost none of them coresponds to what we see on JFK making me to strongly conclude there is no hole in it.
Title: Re: Bullet hole in windshield on JFK's Limo
Post by: Jerry Freeman on September 06, 2018, 03:20:26 AM
Back to the window in question....
Quote
JFK Secret Service Agent Joe Paolella, who passed away in 2017, admits that he saw a bullet hole in the windshield of President Kennedy?s bloody limousine the night of the assassination AND that Gerald Blaine omitted this from his book The Kennedy Detail


Medical observer at Parkland.....

Title: Re: Bullet hole in windshield on JFK's Limo
Post by: Rob Caprio on September 06, 2018, 03:27:44 AM
Check this 1961 Lincoln Continental bullet hole.
(https://s26.postimg.cc/n1rdmffdl/Screenshot_20180906-005457_2.png)
Same should be visible on JFK limo but it is not, right?

Since it would have supported a shot from the front, why do you expect to see a photo of it?
Title: Re: Bullet hole in windshield on JFK's Limo
Post by: John Mytton on September 06, 2018, 03:58:07 AM
Since it would have supported a shot from the front, why do you expect to see a photo of it?

Why do you automatically assume that a hole in the windscreen indicates a shot only from the front?
Kennedy's Limo was completely open and a shot from behind can also penetrate the glass.

(https://s15.postimg.cc/3utoz26zv/Kennedy_limo_empty_from_back.jpg)

Btw why hasn't some conspiracy brainiac plotted the trajectory, you have two known positions the "spiral nebula" and the neck wound, so tell me again why hasn't this simple analysis been done?

JohnM
Title: Re: Bullet hole in windshield on JFK's Limo
Post by: Royell Storing on September 06, 2018, 04:17:26 AM
True. Photographer needed white background so placed sheets of white paper or similar behind the glass or it is the part of original wraping. If there was no white paper behind, background would be wood making the cracks invisible. Apart from narrow impact area crack all other occured when the windshield was removed from the body frame.

          If they want to make the cracks "visible", why not Remove the windshield from the crate and then apply whatever background necessary? Leaving that windshield Inside the crate does Nothing to enhance viewing it or the cracks upon it.
Title: Re: Bullet hole in windshield on JFK's Limo
Post by: Patrick Jackson on September 06, 2018, 06:52:33 AM
          If they want to make the cracks "visible", why not Remove the windshield from the crate and then apply whatever background necessary? Leaving that windshield Inside the crate does Nothing to enhance viewing it or the cracks upon it.
There was no need to pull it outside. It is quite visible in the crate. Pulling it outside would damage it much more.
Title: Re: Bullet hole in windshield on JFK's Limo
Post by: Patrick Jackson on September 06, 2018, 07:00:34 AM
Back to the window in question....

Medical observer at Parkland.....

But, again, where is the hole? Paolella states "apeard to be a hole". The story about two windshields is interesting but why would they do it? Why would somebody remove through and through hole and place second windshield without a hole and when this was done?
Title: Re: Bullet hole in windshield on JFK's Limo
Post by: Bill Chapman on September 06, 2018, 07:09:07 AM
Why do you automatically assume that a hole in the windscreen indicates a shot only from the front?
Kennedy's Limo was completely open and a shot from behind can also penetrate the glass.

(https://s15.postimg.cc/3utoz26zv/Kennedy_limo_empty_from_back.jpg)

Btw why hasn't some conspiracy brainiac plotted the trajectory, you have two known positions the "spiral nebula" and the neck wound, so tell me again why hasn't this simple analysis been done?

JohnM

A poster at Internstional Sceptics said that to effect that trajectory, the shooter would have to be standing right in front of the limo... and added that these kooks would be mental enough to do that.
Title: Re: Bullet hole in windshield on JFK's Limo
Post by: Nicholas Turner on September 06, 2018, 07:40:40 AM
Since it would have supported a shot from the front, why do you expect to see a photo of it?

Could you explain what you mean there please?
Title: Re: Bullet hole in windshield on JFK's Limo
Post by: Patrick Jackson on September 06, 2018, 01:41:42 PM
That's what George Whitaker, Sr. said.

SIX witnesses said there was a hole.

Not sure Whitaker stated there were two windshields.

"(4) Mr. George Whitaker, Sr., a senior manager at the Ford Motor Company?s Rouge Plant in Detroit, Michigan, told attorney (and professor of criminal justice) Doug Weldon in August of 1993, in a tape recorded conversation, that after reporting to work on Monday, November 25th, he discovered the JFK limousine ? a unique, one-of-a-kind item that he unequivocally identified ? in the Rouge Plant?s B building, with the interior stripped out and in the process of being replaced, and with the windshield removed. He was then contacted by one of the Vice Presidents of the division for which he worked, and directed to report to the glass plant lab, immediately. After knocking on the locked door (which he found most unusual), he was let in by two of his subordinates and discovered that they were in possession of the windshield that had been removed from the JFK limousine. They had been told to use it as a template, and to make a new windshield identical to it in shape ? and to then get the new windshield back to the B building for installation in the Presidential limousine that was quickly being rebuilt. Whitaker told Weldon (quoting from the audiotape of the 1993 interview): ?And the windshield had a bullet hole in it, coming from the outside through?it was a good, clean bullet hole, right straight through, from the front. And you can tell, when the bullet hits the windshield, like when you hit a rock or something, what happens? The back chips out and the front may just have a pinhole in it?this had a clean round hole in the front and fragmentation coming out the back.? Whitaker told Weldon that he eventually became superintendent of his division and was placed in charge of five plant divisions. He also told Weldon that the original windshield, with the bullet hole in it, had been broken up and scrapped ? as ordered ? after the new windshield had been made.

When Doug Weldon interviewed Whitaker in August of 1993, his witness insisted on anonymity. Weldon reported on the story without releasing Whitaker?s name in his excellent and comprehensive article titled: ?The Kennedy Limousine: Dallas 1963,? which was published in Jim Fetzer?s anthology Murder in Dealey Plaza, in 2000. After Weldon interviewed Whitaker in August of 1993, Mr. Whitaker subsequently ? on November 22, 1993 (the 30th anniversary of President Kennedy?s assassination) ? wrote down all he could remember about the events he witnessed involving the Presidential limousine and its windshield. After George Whitaker?s death in 2001, his family released his written testament to Nigel Turner, who with their permission revealed Mr. Whitaker?s name, as well as the text of his ?memo for history,? in episode 7 of The Men Who Killed Kennedy, ?The Smoking Guns.?

In ?The Smoking Guns,? the text of Whitaker?s memo can be read on the screen employing freeze frame technology with the DVD of the episode. It said, in part: ?When arrived at the lab the door was locked. I was let in. There were 2 glass engineers there. They had a car windshield that had a bullet hole in it. The hole was about 4 or 6 inches to the right of the rear view mirror [as viewed from the front]. The impact had come from the front of the windshield. (If you have spent 40 years in the glass [illegible] you know which way the impack [sic] was from.?

He saw the limo with the windshield removed but he did not stated seeing one in Rouge Plant?s B building. First time he saw windshield was at the Glass Lab. What is interesting here is that he was requested to make new windshield using JFK limo windshield template. Were the windshields produced in this Ford company and is the new windshield different, bullet proof maybe? Why would he use old windshield as a template while there were templates and tools for ongoing production?
Title: Re: Bullet hole in windshield on JFK's Limo
Post by: Rob Caprio on September 06, 2018, 02:13:35 PM
Why do you automatically assume that a hole in the windscreen indicates a shot only from the front?
Kennedy's Limo was completely open and a shot from behind can also penetrate the glass.

(https://s15.postimg.cc/3utoz26zv/Kennedy_limo_empty_from_back.jpg)

Btw why hasn't some conspiracy brainiac plotted the trajectory, you have two known positions the "spiral nebula" and the neck wound, so tell me again why hasn't this simple analysis been done?

JohnM

Simple. Tell me which of the three bullets in the official explanation could cause the bullet hole in the windshield.
Title: Re: Bullet hole in windshield on JFK's Limo
Post by: Rob Caprio on September 06, 2018, 02:21:11 PM
But, again, where is the hole? Paolella states "apeard to be a hole". The story about two windshields is interesting but why would they do it? Why would somebody remove through and through hole and place second windshield without a hole and when this was done?

Patrick, read my post on page 9 and you will see that there were numerous witnesses that saw a bullet hole in the windshield on November 22, 1963.

https://www.jfkassassinationforum.com/index.php/topic,663.80.html
Title: Re: Bullet hole in windshield on JFK's Limo
Post by: Nicholas Turner on September 06, 2018, 06:13:45 PM
What?

I don't understand what you meant.
Title: Re: Bullet hole in windshield on JFK's Limo
Post by: Jerry Freeman on September 10, 2018, 06:08:27 PM
..read my post on page 9 and you will see that there were numerous witnesses that saw a bullet hole in the windshield on November 22, 1963.
(https://vincepalamara.files.wordpress.com/2018/08/gg.jpg)

 There was more security on an empty limo than there ever was when a president was in it.
 
Title: Re: Bullet hole in windshield on JFK's Limo
Post by: Allan Fritzke on September 13, 2018, 02:52:17 AM
http://ss100x.com/ferg1.gif (http://ss100x.com/ferg1.gif)
(http://ss100x.com/ferg1.gif)

Obviously you only need to read this one man's report.  He was brought in to look at the windshield to specifically point out that there was no hole through and through the windshield while the rest of the automobile remained under canvas wrap!

Note in his statement that only the windshield was uncovered while the rest of the car was covered up.  He then came back the next day (he claimed) and removed dried blood from around upholstery buttons.  What kind of ludicrous statements would you concur from those made?

Where did he find the cracks in the windshield?  About 2 inches below the rearview mirror he reported.   His report and I quote front the first paragraph where he said: "....substantial cracks radiating a couple of inches from the center of the windshield at a point directly beneath the mirror...."

So why make a statement that doesn't match any of the windshields in the crate or photos?  He is brought in specifically the first night to examine the windshield!  Why does someone make a written statement like he did?    Obviously this piece of paper was needed by someone to MAKE SURE there were no perforations in the windshield!  Conspiracy?  Hell yeah!   Does it look to you that the "cracks" in the windshield are below the rearview mirror?  He supposedly examined this windshield in DETAIL!  You don't need someone from Ford to look at a stock windshield and draw an observation that yes it has cracks and should be replied - Safelite repair!
Title: Re: Bullet hole in windshield on JFK's Limo
Post by: Jerry Organ on September 13, 2018, 04:47:03 AM

Where did he find the cracks in the windshield?  About 2 inches below the rearview mirror he reported.   His report and I quote front the first paragraph where he said: "....substantial cracks radiating a couple of inches from the center of the windshield at a point directly beneath the mirror...."


I think he says the center of the crack is several inches from the mid-line of the windshield. The reference to the mirror seems to do with the level of the crack center.

When on the car, the main part of the windshield is on a slanted plane. The windshield crack location relative to the mirror changes depending on the viewer's position.
Title: Re: Bullet hole in windshield on JFK's Limo
Post by: Royell Storing on September 13, 2018, 05:44:09 AM
http://ss100x.com/ferg1.gif (http://ss100x.com/ferg1.gif)
(http://ss100x.com/ferg1.gif)

Obviously you only need to read this one man's report.  He was brought in to look at the windshield to specifically point out that there was no hole through and through the windshield while the rest of the automobile remained under canvas wrap!

Note in his statement that only the windshield was uncovered while the rest of the car was covered up.  He then came back the next day (he claimed) and removed dried blood from around upholstery buttons.  What kind of ludicrous statements would you concur from those made?

Where did he find the cracks in the windshield?  About 2 inches below the rearview mirror he reported.   His report and I quote front the first paragraph where he said: "....substantial cracks radiating a couple of inches from the center of the windshield at a point directly beneath the mirror...."

So why make a statement that doesn't match any of the windshields in the crate or photos?  He is brought in specifically the first night to examine the windshield!  Why does someone make a written statement like he did?    Obviously this piece of paper was needed by someone to MAKE SURE there were no perforations in the windshield!  Conspiracy?  Hell yeah!   Does it look to you that the "cracks" in the windshield are below the rearview mirror?  He supposedly examined this windshield in DETAIL!  You don't need someone from Ford to look at a stock windshield and draw an observation that yes it has cracks and should be replied - Safelite repair!

     Interesting that this guy that allegedly made, "...arrangements to replace the windshield" on 11/23/63, returns the following day and "On My Own initiative", starts popping buttons off of the rear seat the JFK Limo.   
Title: Re: Bullet hole in windshield on JFK's Limo
Post by: Jerry Organ on September 13, 2018, 01:06:08 PM
     Interesting that this guy that allegedly made, "...arrangements to replace the windshield" on 11/23/63, returns the following day and "On My Own initiative", starts popping buttons off of the rear seat the JFK Limo.   

He didn't cut off and remove the buttons, if that what you're claiming.
Title: Re: Bullet hole in windshield on JFK's Limo
Post by: Royell Storing on September 13, 2018, 05:58:46 PM
He didn't cut off and remove the buttons, if that what you're claiming.

      The point is the guy was called in to deal with the Windshield of the JFK Limo. Somehow, he is in the back seat taking a knife to it.
Title: Re: Bullet hole in windshield on JFK's Limo
Post by: Allan Fritzke on September 13, 2018, 06:06:29 PM
I think he says the center of the crack is several inches from the mid-line of the windshield. The reference to the mirror seems to do with the level of the crack center.

When on the car, the main part of the windshield is on a slanted plane. The windshield crack location relative to the mirror changes depending on the viewer's position.

Now that is a crock of BS that you are perpetuating Jerry!  Ferguson was sent specifically  to look at the windshield and comment on it.  He specifically confirms the position of the cracks and that there was a lack of perforation on it.   There must have been a reason for this.  The rest of the car was covered up and so he was able to concentrate solely at looking at the windshield that "first night".  He spent an hour at the scene and the best you can come up with is that his observation was on the same plane!    Yeah, the windshield is all one plane if you want to get technical!!!  You can't even read his report properly!    It specifically points out that the cracks are 2 inches below at a point directly beneath the mirror and radiating outwards from there!!  This correspondence can't be any clearer!    You have the audacity to make an interjection and presuming something much different - trying to make up excuses for his report and why it doesn't match the crated windshield which could be a stock item from the Lincoln Factory with a hammer blow applied!  Doesn't look like a windshield removed from a vehicle.  It has the tape still around the edges.  Likely a roped in model - not urethaned in my opinion.

Secondly,  Ferguson mentions the fact that there will be further damage when they have to kick out the windshield during its replacement.   That is a very true statement.  So what further damage was done in that crated windshield provided as evidence?   I have seen "urethane"d windshields removed and or the style that uses a "rope" to put in.  If it is "urethane"d, the windshield suffers extreme enhanced crack damage during the removal/cutout process  as you do put a lot of pressure on it during the removal process and the cracks spread all over!   There will be evidence of cut urethane along its edges as well - none seen on the one in the crate.     Even if it is a roped in w/s model,  it has to be pushed out forcibly and cracks will propagate further cracking and rather quickly  will run all over in an enhanced manner.   Glass is a hard surface and even a crack in your car's windshield can be easily enhanced/propagate with thumb pressure!  Remarkably, the crated windshield looks like it was so carefully removed that there was no further damage other than original - it is in pristine condition (kind of like the magic bullet rolling off the stretcher gurney)!   That would be an impossibility!  He further dams his report by saying he comes back the next night unguarded, car uncovered, and proceeds to remove dried blood from around upholstery buttons with his knife! What was he the janitor?
 
It is pretty obvious to me that there were a lot of reports of holes in windshield floating around and at the time of introduction of the Ferguson document the secret service needed a corroborated document to state that the windshield remained unperforated so as to disqualify/refute rumors that substantiated the reality of a frontal assault and a hole through and through it.    It really was one big coverup.  Maybe the bullet came from the lead car hiding in the shadows of the tunnel waiting for the assassination to take place.  The frontal assault where the glass shards get reflected in the light at Zapruder Film Z-330 and show up in the film can't be disputed.  The man in the front seat was wearing black and is not reflecting light like a piece of chrome would off a bumper - but glass spray would and does get caught on films periodically.  Fortunately for the man in the front, his head was down below the dash and out of the line of fire.  The driver at the same time moves his head towards the windshield to keep the spray from getting into his eyes!  Looking at about 3 frames in the Zapruder film you can note his frontal movement!  As the President's head goes back, his goes forward!

 
Title: Re: Bullet hole in windshield on JFK's Limo
Post by: Jake Maxwell on September 13, 2018, 07:42:34 PM
A question that needs an answer: Has it ever been suggested that the windshield bullet was intended for SA Bill Greer?
Title: Re: Bullet hole in windshield on JFK's Limo
Post by: Steve Logan on September 13, 2018, 08:21:30 PM
A question that needs an answer: Has it ever been suggested that the windshield bullet was intended for SA Bill Greer?
Looks more like a question that should never have been asked.
Title: Re: Bullet hole in windshield on JFK's Limo
Post by: Jake Maxwell on September 13, 2018, 10:38:37 PM
Looks more like a question that should never have been asked.
I'm not sure why that is... but I'll take it that you've never read anything suggesting this...
Title: Re: Bullet hole in windshield on JFK's Limo
Post by: Jerry Organ on September 14, 2018, 02:47:28 AM
Now that is a crock of BS that you are perpetuating Jerry!  Ferguson was sent specifically  to look at the windshield and comment on it.  He specifically confirms the position of the cracks and that there was a lack of perforation on it.   There must have been a reason for this.  The rest of the car was covered up and so he was able to concentrate solely at looking at the windshield that "first night".  He spent an hour at the scene and the best you can come up with is that his observation was on the same plane!    Yeah, the windshield is all one plane if you want to get technical!!! 

I'll try again. The windshield is on a slanted plane. The mirror is not on the same plane. The relative positions of the mirror and crack changes depending on the viewer's position.

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You can't even read his report properly!    It specifically points out that the cracks are 2 inches below at a point directly beneath the mirror and radiating outwards from there!!  This correspondence can't be any clearer!   

What part of "a couple of inches from the center of the windshield" don't you comprehend?

(http://i68.tinypic.com/2v28kt4.jpg)

Seems reasonable to think that  Ferguson didn't stay at the car's front grille (ie: top inset) to view the windshield, but instead that he walked up along the side to get a better view (ie: bottom inset).

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You have the audacity to make an interjection and presuming something much different - trying to make up excuses for his report and why it doesn't match the crated windshield which could be a stock item from the Lincoln Factory with a hammer blow applied!  Doesn't look like a windshield removed from a vehicle.  It has the tape still around the edges.  Likely a roped in model - not urethaned in my opinion.

Seems the windshield photographed at the White House Garage and National Archives match within reason. No, not on the molecule level if that's what you expect. It's a reasonable match given the difference in lighting and camera angles, and that one image is of the exterior surface while the other is of the interior.

(http://i66.tinypic.com/2vsqlhg.jpg)

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Secondly,  Ferguson mentions the fact that there will be further damage when they have to kick out the windshield during its replacement.   That is a very true statement.  So what further damage was done in that crated windshield provided as evidence?   I have seen "urethane"d windshields removed and or the style that uses a "rope" to put in.  If it is "urethane"d, the windshield suffers extreme enhanced crack damage during the removal/cutout process  as you do put a lot of pressure on it during the removal process and the cracks spread all over!   There will be evidence of cut urethane along its edges as well - none seen on the one in the crate.     Even if it is a roped in w/s model,  it has to be pushed out forcibly and cracks will propagate further cracking and rather quickly  will run all over in an enhanced manner.   Glass is a hard surface and even a crack in your car's windshield can be easily enhanced/propagate with thumb pressure!  Remarkably, the crated windshield looks like it was so carefully removed that there was no further damage other than original - it is in pristine condition (kind of like the magic bullet rolling off the stretcher gurney)!   That would be an impossibility!  He further dams his report by saying he comes back the next night unguarded, car uncovered, and proceeds to remove dried blood from around upholstery buttons with his knife! What was he the janitor?
(https://www.maryferrell.org/wiki/images/5/5f/Photo_naraevid_Windshield-1.jpg)  (https://catalog.archives.gov/OpaAPI/media/305143/content/arcmedia/media/images/33/35/33-3416a.gif)

You critics and your definition of "pristine condition." Hee hee. There are cracks beyond the circled area and in other areas of the windshield.
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It is pretty obvious to me that there were a lot of reports of holes in windshield floating around and at the time of introduction of the Ferguson document the secret service needed a corroborated document to state that the windshield remained unperforated so as to disqualify/refute rumors that substantiated the reality of a frontal assault and a hole through and through it.    It really was one big coverup.

It's your theory that has the holes in it. It's looking like a screen door.

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Maybe the bullet came from the lead car hiding in the shadows of the tunnel waiting for the assassination to take place.  The frontal assault where the glass shards get reflected in the light at Zapruder Film Z-330 and show up in the film can't be disputed.  The man in the front seat was wearing black and is not reflecting light like a piece of chrome would off a bumper - but glass spray would and does get caught on films periodically.  Fortunately for the man in the front, his head was down below the dash and out of the line of fire.  The driver at the same time moves his head towards the windshield to keep the spray from getting into his eyes!  Looking at about 3 frames in the Zapruder film you can note his frontal movement!  As the President's head goes back, his goes forward!
(https://thumbs.dreamstime.com/b/open-roll-aluminum-foil-food-white-background-aluminium-wrapping-cooking-isolated-clipping-path-39283513.jpg)
Title: Re: Bullet hole in windshield on JFK's Limo
Post by: Allan Fritzke on September 14, 2018, 07:56:43 AM
Give me a break!   When he examines the cracks in the windshield for an hour, he is looking at it from all viewpoints and you come up with a conclusion that his statement says directly below a mirror means he is looking at it from a fender perspective and just gave it a chance glance.  You are out of your mind!   You are stating that it is skewed over to a side and he is incorrectly stating what he saw and told to report this after looking at it for an hour.  I call BS on that.  Directly below the mirror is from the vantage point of the front so that you have a point of reference!  In your view, He just can't seem to describe the axis of the car and has no point of reference to his statements - BS!   In reality,  he may have never even seen the windshield and the car and was told what to write up his report is more like is as this statement came out on December 18 -nearly a month later.   Remember he was called in to look specifically at the windshield, the rest of the car was covered and he was there for that purpose only.  I think anyone brought in to describe what they saw would have to figure out a frame of reference when asked to observe - not from a fender perspective or at some obscure/obtuse undescribable angle.  You might then also say that this guy was so dumb that he couldn't tell the difference between a crack and a perforation because he only was allowed to view it from the outside since the entire car was canvassed in and he would not have seen any glass shards on the inside!  Obviously his statement was required to point evidence in a certain direction, otherwise why not use in situ photographs rather than his written report as the only basis to dismiss  a hole in the windshield?  There is no need to have him come in if there were real investigators coming in, taking place and trying to figure out exactly what took place at the crime scene.

Obviously, Ferguson provides 2 pieces of evidence in this report  that the public is meant to see and that he observes for the record.  Firstly, there was no perforation ie. hole in the windshield.  Secondly, he examined the right car the following night as he knifed off dried blood from upholstery buttons - blood which was missed by the cleanup crew.  This is proof of just how thorough and intricate an examination he took.  Never mind he can't seem to describe a point of reference in your opinion Gerry.   He is therefor a worthy expert!!   He examined the right car and discovered no hole in the windshield is what conclusion and that is the only conclusion you are meant to derive from his observation.    That is why his report is important and squelches the fact that there really was other eyewitnesses  out there that actually saw a hole in the windshield - which again, MUST NOT be reported at all costs.  The rest really is just filler for the report!  I mean really look at the subject line "bubble top" and try to imagine why Ferguson's was called to go there the very first night and why the secret service called him again the second night (implied as he seemed to have authorization to go there a second night -seemingly could let himself in as there were no guards).  Is he a bullet hole examiner expert sent by Ford Motor Company?    The secret service certainly didn't call for a group of detectives to swarm over the crime scene and gather evidence did they?   Why call Ferguson unless you are requiring a statement from him?

Why would a no name secret service agent call for him to come over to have a look at the windshield in the first place?  The report keeps it anonymous so there is no further paper trail as to which individual would want to have him come there to examine the windshield!!!!   It certainly is not an important detail to name that individual or individuals who authorized his arrival at this would be crime scene.    Does it not make sense that your are trying to disclaim that a hole in the windshield exists?    This is just a stock windshield for a Lincoln!  Do you think someone really needs to call safelite repair / safelite replace and have a custom fitted Lincoln  windshield fitted.  Did they needed verification that the windshield doctor could just fill in the crack and rather save the cost of replacement in this case?   Or would you suggest that this is bulletproof plate glass specifically made and tempered to protect a President - a one of a kind with no design specs for replacement that a knife wielding windshield expert comes to inspec on the first night  and then proceeds to using his own knife to clean up upholstery buttons on a second night in the course of his escapades and investigation!   

Of course Mr. Ferguson is not only a glass expert but also a knife wielding upholstery button cleaner.   LOL!! LOL!!!  Then, he claims the guards the first night are not even aware of why he has been sent onto the scene there and the next night the whole car is wide open for inspection without even a guard present!  I guess the cleanup crew shampooed the rugs and everything was left ready for the next POTUS to climb in and go for a drive!  This statement involving having guards present was there to be sure that no one was even allowed to get close to tamper with evidence and yet all the evidence disappears without even a photograph by investigators independent of the FBI, CIA and SS! 

As the safelite repair expert, he proceeds to scrape dried blood from upholstery buttons just to verify that he actually is looking at the right car - just to make sure there is no doubt that the report wasn't just invented for obvious purposes.   Take it one step further, he can likely smell that it was the President's blood on those buttons and vouch for it!!!!       It was so necessary for his report that they couldn't accompany the claim with forensic photographs to back it up or have a cameraman with him to back up his statements.    Yes, smash a windshield, crate it and claim that it was from the President's car is about all you can really say.     Real investigators even in the 1960s used cameras to back up crime scenes.  The investigation was all provided from within an internal ring with no outside help.   This crime scene was backed up by nothing but pieces of paper observation!  Normal investigation means taking pictures of everything at the scene as it is evidence - especially when we are talking the POTUS!  IF however you want to make sure it is dismissed as not being a Coup D'etat, you hide it all and only release scanty details so that the public draws a very specific conclusion to dismiss that fact! 

Wow give your head a shake!   You know why he is there!  He is there to report that there are no perforations to the windshield and called upon to make that statement so that it refutes the evidence that people actually saw holes in the windshield and made statements to that effect.  It doesn't take a rocket science to see evidence being invented as necessary to squelch any disapproval to only shots fired from a sniper's nest and the real Coup d'etat which actually did take place.

When you begin to see this and its corruption, you will then understand how Twin Towers go down in their own footprints on 9/11 and a 3rd Tower not hit by an airplane implodes and falls within itself  - even though it was never even hit by an airplane like the other two!    If you can believe that, yes I guess you can believe that JFK was killed by a lone nutty crackshot gunman at 300 yards in a moving car, all by himself with no help!  The nice thing is that he dies before confessing or allowed to defend himself!  Police custody failed to preserve his life as he is killed by a patriotic strip club owner inside a police station who loves his country so much that he takes justice into his own hands and helps the nation out by ridding them of the truth.
Title: Re: Bullet hole in windshield on JFK's Limo
Post by: Mike Orr on September 14, 2018, 02:31:29 PM
Very well put , Allan .
Title: Re: Bullet hole in windshield on JFK's Limo
Post by: Jerry Organ on September 14, 2018, 03:08:15 PM
Give me a break!   When he examines the cracks in the windshield for an hour, he is looking at it from all viewpoints and you come up with a conclusion that his statement says directly below a mirror means he is looking at it from a fender perspective and just gave it a chance glance.

I didn't say his description came from him looking from the front grille; I said it was a result of his perspective when he walked up along the side to get a proper look.

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You are out of your mind!   You are stating that it is skewed over to a side and he is incorrectly stating what he saw and told to report this after looking at it for an hour.  I call BS on that.  Directly below the mirror is from the vantage point of the front so that you have a point of reference!

I think he would have described it from the more optimal close-up view. Either way, it's still "a couple of inches from the center of the windshield".

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In your view, He just can't seem to describe the axis of the car and has no point of reference to his statements - BS!   In reality,  he may have never even seen the windshield and the car and was told what to write up his report is more like is as this statement came out on December 18 -nearly a month later.   Remember he was called in to look specifically at the windshield, the rest of the car was covered and he was there for that purpose only.  I think anyone brought in to describe what they saw would have to figure out a frame of reference when asked to observe - not from a fender perspective or at some obscure/obtuse undescribable angle. 

That's an idealistic dramatization. We're living in a world where they have to ink-mark what leg to operate on so the surgical team don't mix it up.

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You might then also say that this guy was so dumb

No. I wouldn't say that guy was so dumb. ::)

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that he couldn't tell the difference between a crack and a perforation because he only was allowed to view it from the outside since the entire car was canvassed in and he would not have seen any glass shards on the inside!  Obviously his statement was required to point evidence in a certain direction, otherwise why not use in situ photographs rather than his written report as the only basis to dismiss  a hole in the windshield?  There is no need to have him come in if there were real investigators coming in, taking place and trying to figure out exactly what took place at the crime scene.
Obviously, Ferguson provides 2 pieces of evidence in this report  that the public is meant to see and that he observes for the record.  Firstly, there was no perforation ie. hole in the windshield.  Secondly, he examined the right car the following night as he knifed off dried blood from upholstery buttons - blood which was missed by the cleanup crew.  This is proof of just how thorough and intricate an examination he took.  Never mind he can't seem to describe a point of reference in your opinion Gerry.   He is therefor a worthy expert!!   He examined the right car and discovered no hole in the windshield is what conclusion and that is the only conclusion you are meant to derive from his observation.    That is why his report is important and squelches the fact that there really was other eyewitnesses  out there that actually saw a hole in the windshield - which again, MUST NOT be reported at all costs.  The rest really is just filler for the report!  I mean really look at the subject line "bubble top" and try to imagine why Ferguson's was called to go there the very first night and why the secret service called him again the second night (implied as he seemed to have authorization to go there a second night -seemingly could let himself in as there were no guards).  Is he a bullet hole examiner expert sent by Ford Motor Company?    The secret service certainly didn't call for a group of detectives to swarm over the crime scene and gather evidence did they?   Why call Ferguson unless you are requiring a statement from him?

Why would a no name secret service agent call for him to come over to have a look at the windshield in the first place?  The report keeps it anonymous so there is no further paper trail as to which individual would want to have him come there to examine the windshield!!!!   It certainly is not an important detail to name that individual or individuals who authorized his arrival at this would be crime scene.    Does it not make sense that your are trying to disclaim that a hole in the windshield exists?    This is just a stock windshield for a Lincoln!  Do you think someone really needs to call safelite repair / safelite replace and have a custom fitted Lincoln  windshield fitted.  Did they needed verification that the windshield doctor could just fill in the crack and rather save the cost of replacement in this case?   Or would you suggest that this is bulletproof plate glass specifically made and tempered to protect a President - a one of a kind with no design specs for replacement that a knife wielding windshield expert comes to inspec on the first night  and then proceeds to using his own knife to clean up upholstery buttons on a second night in the course of his escapades and investigation!   

Of course Mr. Ferguson is not only a glass expert but also a knife wielding upholstery button cleaner.   LOL!! LOL!!!  Then, he claims the guards the first night are not even aware of why he has been sent onto the scene there and the next night the whole car is wide open for inspection without even a guard present!  I guess the cleanup crew shampooed the rugs and everything was left ready for the next POTUS to climb in and go for a drive!  This statement involving having guards present was there to be sure that no one was even allowed to get close to tamper with evidence and yet all the evidence disappears without even a photograph by investigators independent of the FBI, CIA and SS! 

As the safelite repair expert, he proceeds to scrape dried blood from upholstery buttons just to verify that he actually is looking at the right car - just to make sure there is no doubt that the report wasn't just invented for obvious purposes.   Take it one step further, he can likely smell that it was the President's blood on those buttons and vouch for it!!!!       It was so necessary for his report that they couldn't accompany the claim with forensic photographs to back it up or have a cameraman with him to back up his statements.    Yes, smash a windshield, crate it and claim that it was from the President's car is about all you can really say.     Real investigators even in the 1960s used cameras to back up crime scenes.  The investigation was all provided from within an internal ring with no outside help.   This crime scene was backed up by nothing but pieces of paper observation!  Normal investigation means taking pictures of everything at the scene as it is evidence - especially when we are talking the POTUS!  IF however you want to make sure it is dismissed as not being a Coup D'etat, you hide it all and only release scanty details so that the public draws a very specific conclusion to dismiss that fact! 

Wow give your head a shake!   You know why he is there!  He is there to report that there are no perforations to the windshield and called upon to make that statement so that it refutes the evidence that people actually saw holes in the windshield and made statements to that effect.  It doesn't take a rocket science to see evidence being invented as necessary to squelch any disapproval to only shots fired from a sniper's nest and the real Coup d'etat which actually did take place.

When you begin to see this and its corruption, you will then understand how Twin Towers go down in their own footprints on 9/11 and a 3rd Tower not hit by an airplane implodes and falls within itself  - even though it was never even hit by an airplane like the other two!    If you can believe that, yes I guess you can believe that JFK was killed by a lone nutty crackshot gunman at 300 yards in a moving car, all by himself with no help!  The nice thing is that he dies before confessing or allowed to defend himself!  Police custody failed to preserve his life as he is killed by a patriotic strip club owner inside a police station who loves his country so much that he takes justice into his own hands and helps the nation out by ridding them of the truth.

Well, I'm glad you had a chance to vent. Feel better? You sound like a 9-11 Truther.

Regarding the "300 yards". Would it improve the LN case if that figure could be reduced by 2/3rds?
Title: Re: Bullet hole in windshield on JFK's Limo
Post by: Allan Fritzke on September 14, 2018, 07:42:25 PM
The purpose of this report was solely to refute the presence of  a hole (perforation) in the windshield.    There is no other reason to have this Ford Motor Company representative be called in by the SS and write a report on December 18.  This December 18 report also claims that he is allowed to climb around/lean on the limousine yet and pick off dried blood from around upholstery buttons.  One day canvas covered, next day almost completely sterilized, save the dried blood remaining in a poorly done sterilization process!  Its a laugh!

You can't let it rest that his exact description after looking at the windshield for an hour in his written statement doesn't match the crated windshield offered as an exhibit -each on its own totally different!   He was very descriptive in his observation in my opinion.   Meanwhile LHO has a McChicken sandwich, hiding amongst the boxes and is just waiting for the opportunity to prove what an expert marksman he really is - not only getting off one shot with his bolt action carcano sniper rifle but 3!  He mixed casing as well, some were frangible bullets and some where hard core bullets, one of which ended up on a stretcher gurney!   
Title: Re: Bullet hole in windshield on JFK's Limo
Post by: Royell Storing on September 15, 2018, 12:59:13 AM


    This is par for the course.  Stuff does Not add up and you always hear, "it wasn't intended to be precise", "it's an estimate", " this is a perspective issue". The same song-and-dance that is spouted for the conflicting measurements/wound locations on the JFK Autopsy Face Sheet.
Title: Re: Bullet hole in windshield on JFK's Limo
Post by: Bill Brown on September 17, 2018, 06:08:55 AM
Roy Kellerman saw the crack in the windshield.  He ran his hand across the outer surface of the windshield and stated that it felt smooth, no interruption, i.e. no bullet hole.  He stated that the crack was on the interior surface only.
Title: Re: Bullet hole in windshield on JFK's Limo
Post by: Patrick Jackson on September 19, 2018, 10:30:24 PM
These three photos were taken in the same garage comparing the hat on the wall:
(https://i.postimg.cc/CLbC7F8r/image.jpg)
(https://i.postimg.cc/vZMrSpLY/image.jpg)
(https://i.postimg.cc/kM0FWV2t/image.jpg)

There is absolutely no doubt that this crack
(https://i.postimg.cc/kM0FWV2t/image.jpg)
is same as these cracks.
(https://i.postimg.cc/L4Y3qk8p/33-3423a.jpg)(https://i.postimg.cc/T39V8CCr/Photo_naraevid_Windshield-5_1_3.jpg)

Question is in which garage the first three photos were taken?

Also, this
(https://i.postimg.cc/bJnqbbxM/image.jpg)
and this
(https://i.postimg.cc/7hywN6XL/image.jpg)
and this
(https://i.postimg.cc/rp38Kgrx/image.jpg)
photos were not taken at the same spot. Were they taken in the same garage?

Also, note the mud on the wheels, where did the mud came from, where did they drove the limo?
Title: Re: Bullet hole in windshield on JFK's Limo
Post by: Jerry Organ on September 20, 2018, 03:09:53 AM
Regarding the "mud" on the tire sidewalls in the garage, I believe it might be an effect caused by the flash and camera angle.

(https://www.jfkassassinationgallery.com/albums/userpics/10001/Weaver_Scan.jpg)  (https://www.jfkassassinationgallery.com/albums/userpics/10001/normal_Weaver.jpg)

There's a similar irregular "caked-on" pattern on the tire sidewall in the Weaver photo. Instead of flash, it's the way the sun angle is hitting the tire relative to the photographer.
Title: Re: Bullet hole in windshield on JFK's Limo
Post by: Allan Fritzke on September 20, 2018, 03:51:54 AM
These three photos were taken in the same garage comparing the hat on the wall:
(https://i.postimg.cc/CLbC7F8r/image.jpg)
(https://i.postimg.cc/vZMrSpLY/image.jpg)
(https://i.postimg.cc/kM0FWV2t/image.jpg)

There is absolutely no doubt that this crack
(https://i.postimg.cc/kM0FWV2t/image.jpg)
is same as these cracks.
(https://i.postimg.cc/L4Y3qk8p/33-3423a.jpg)(https://i.postimg.cc/T39V8CCr/Photo_naraevid_Windshield-5_1_3.jpg)

Question is in which garage the first three photos were taken?

Also, this
(https://i.postimg.cc/bJnqbbxM/image.jpg)
and this
(https://i.postimg.cc/7hywN6XL/image.jpg)
and this
(https://i.postimg.cc/rp38Kgrx/image.jpg)
photos were not taken at the same spot. Were they taken in the same garage?

Also, note the mud on the wheels, where did the mud came from, where did they drove the limo?
Very Nice!   Clearly the first 3 photos don't show cracks.  How are they even related to the others?  Can you see if someone took the liberty to roll down the partially raised side window by Nellie Connally's seat which can be scene in the Zapruder frames?   I would ask at which garage(s) was this car parked in as well? What is the other vehicle (truck?) doing in this garage. A cube van or Fire Truck? Additional questions:       Is this at the Whitehouse?  Is the photo detailed enough that we can get a read on the license plate? Or is there too much light aberration?!  When were the photos taken?  It certainly looks like irregular dirt lines on the tires as it is near the tread line and not light aberration - maybe wrong though!

Why do none of these pictures even remotely come close to what this man describes on December 18, 1963.  He claimed he went to look at in the Whitehouse Garage (specifically asked too look at the w/s by an unknown SS official) on November 23rd and look at where he describes the crack - oh my!
(http://ss100x.com/ferg1.gif)

Title: Re: Bullet hole in windshield on JFK's Limo
Post by: Patrick Jackson on September 20, 2018, 09:05:39 AM
Regarding the "mud" on the tire sidewalls in the garage, I believe it might be an effect caused by the flash and camera angle.

(https://www.jfkassassinationgallery.com/albums/userpics/10001/Weaver_Scan.jpg)  (https://www.jfkassassinationgallery.com/albums/userpics/10001/normal_Weaver.jpg)

There's a similar irregular "caked-on" pattern on the tire sidewall in the Weaver photo. Instead of flash, it's the way the sun angle is hitting the tire relative to the photographer.
Jerry, under no flash light or camera angle this can not be any effect or whatsoever. This can only be mud and nothing else.
(https://i.postimg.cc/zBr1bkNc/4752588738_1f44ebcb2d_b.jpg)
(https://i.postimg.cc/FKc4HBMS/image.jpg)
Title: Re: Bullet hole in windshield on JFK's Limo
Post by: Patrick Jackson on September 20, 2018, 09:16:07 AM
Clearly the first 3 photos don't show cracks. 

Picture bellow clearly show the crack.
(https://i.postimg.cc/g2L9g7k7/image.jpg)
This one also.
(https://i.postimg.cc/sgkkqJMg/image.jpg)
On a third picture we do not see the crack due to a camera angle but that does not prove the crack was not there.
(https://i.postimg.cc/bJnqbbxM/image.jpg)

The point is that all three pictures were take on the same spot and same time and they prove that the windshield in NARA is the same one as this one we are seeing in this there photos. And since it is absolutely the same, there is no hole in it.

Unless there were two absolutely identical limos switched between Algens 6 and Altgens 7.

Absolutely no doubt windshields are the same, no hole and the crack is outside. 
Title: Re: Bullet hole in windshield on JFK's Limo
Post by: Steve Howsley on September 20, 2018, 10:17:26 AM

Absolutely no doubt windshields are the same, no hole and the crack is outside.

I agree Patrick but you can be sure this issue will be brought up again with people who should know better expressing the same astonishment and disbelief as if they have just uncovered irrefutable proof of evidence tampering. After almost 55 years of mining for clues and coming up empty handed you'd like to think the matter would be closed but that ain't gonna happen.   ::)
Title: Re: Bullet hole in windshield on JFK's Limo
Post by: Howard Gee on September 20, 2018, 12:20:31 PM
Serious question for the drooling conspiracy clowns....

How many windshields do you think the conspirators had to break before they managed to create a substitute planted windshield with the identical pattern of cracks seen on the original windshield ?

Think it over, droolers.
Title: Re: Bullet hole in windshield on JFK's Limo
Post by: Patrick Jackson on September 20, 2018, 01:32:09 PM
I agree Patrick but you can be sure this issue will be brought up again with people who should know better expressing the same astonishment and disbelief as if they have just uncovered irrefutable proof of evidence tampering. After almost 55 years of mining for clues and coming up empty handed you'd like to think the matter would be closed but that ain't gonna happen.   ::)
Thing is that some people will not believe it no matter what. If they would go to NARA and check personally and see there is no hole they will say it is not the same windshield. No matter what evidence to present, they will dispute them find the ways to extend the issue further more. I find there are two groups of people doing this, not believing to their own eyes: first group are those whose job is to lead us to a false stories, meaning there are government people here whose job is to make the truth unreachable and second group of people are those who do not want to admit they are/were wrong no matter what. They see with their own eyes but since they started pushing one story years ago, it is very hard for them to accept and admit they were wrong.
In any case, I think that the full truth will never be reached since it would destroy America. Just imagine what would happen if FBI, CIA, NSA admits 9/11 was inside job (I am not claiming it was)? People would get confused, stock would drop drastically and who knows what else can happen. No doubt there was one conspiracy in Dallas: to blame Oswald for everything no matter what.
Title: Re: Bullet hole in windshield on JFK's Limo
Post by: Howard Gee on September 20, 2018, 03:24:19 PM
Thing is that some people will not believe it no matter what. If they would go to NARA and check personally and see there is no hole they will say it is not the same windshield. No matter what evidence to present, they will dispute them find the ways to extend the issue further more. I find there are two groups of people doing this, not believing to their own eyes: first group are those whose job is to lead us to a false stories, meaning there are government people here whose job is to make the truth unreachable and second group of people are those who do not want to admit they are/were wrong no matter what. They see with their own eyes but since they started pushing one story years ago, it is very hard for them to accept and admit they were wrong.
In any case, I think that the full truth will never be reached since it would destroy America. Just imagine what would happen if FBI, CIA, NSA admits 9/11 was inside job (I am not claiming it was)? People would get confused, stock would drop drastically and who knows what else can happen. No doubt there was one conspiracy in Dallas: to blame Oswald for everything no matter what.

Are you the same Patrick Jackson that theorized a 'blood cannon' was used to fake JFK's head exploding ?
Title: Re: Bullet hole in windshield on JFK's Limo
Post by: Jake Maxwell on September 20, 2018, 03:26:49 PM
I'm reposting to show the same windshield crack pattern... I did a Powerpoint 180 flip to match up to the Limo photo from 1963 (which I assume is what we see on the right side panel) - and also changed the angle on the Archives photo to try to match them up... There seem to be enough characteristics to say they are the same windshield, in my opinion.
(https://image.ibb.co/eGWYnz/Screen_Shot_2018_09_04_at_11_29_59_AM.png)
(https://image.ibb.co/jRKYLK/Screen_Shot_2018_09_04_at_11_44_45_AM.png)
Title: Re: Bullet hole in windshield on JFK's Limo
Post by: Allan Fritzke on September 20, 2018, 04:10:38 PM
....These three photos were taken in the same garage comparing the hat on the wall:
There is absolutely no doubt that this crack
is same as these cracks.
Question is in which garage the first three photos were taken?
photos were not taken at the same spot. Were they taken in the same garage?
Also, note the mud on the wheels, where did the mud came from, where did they drove the limo?....
(https://i.postimg.cc/CLbC7F8r/image.jpg)
(https://i.postimg.cc/7hywN6XL/image.jpg)
Clearly the above 2 pictures with the cube van in the background are at different locations or the car was moved between photographs!  Why was it moved or were photos taken at 2 different times?  Or is it 2 different trucks with matching bumpers and cabs?
(https://i.postimg.cc/rp38Kgrx/image.jpg)
Clearly looking at this photo and comparing it to the rest, it should be clear that the film is different and so likely a different camera used indicating different cameraman and a different time and possibly different location.
These photos all certainly don't look like crime scene investigation photos and so become useless!  The lighting is so poor that it relies on flash photography - can't even read a license plate, that is how clear they are!   As I said before, Ferguson created a statement for the SS on December 18 stating the position of the crack on the windshield which he was specifically called in to look at (the rest of car covered) doesn't match the crated windshield placement of crack whatsoever.   Why not?
(https://i.postimg.cc/CLbC7F8r/image.jpg)
This photo (can't even read the license plate) and doesn't show a crack unless you want to imagine it.  I could point to the white spot located way below the mirror and infer that there is a bullet hole through and through as it looks like it!    All ridiculous conclusions and not evidence of anything.  To find a crack on Altgens pictures is also ridiculous in my opinion.  People see what they want to see.    The only thing we know for sure is there is a crated windshield with a crack in it and the written statement taken on December 18th does not match it.  Certainly if a cameraman accompanied Ferguson the first night, the car would have been covered with a canvas.  So when were these pictures thrown in?   As well, why take a distant photo with a door open on the car?  The resolution of whatever they were trying to point out is beyond amateurish!   
(https://i.postimg.cc/bJnqbbxM/image.jpg)

Title: Re: Bullet hole in windshield on JFK's Limo
Post by: Don Echols on September 20, 2018, 04:56:44 PM
I agree,with you. You should listen to Dr. Robert McCellum,i think its how you spell his name.One of the doctors that worked on Kennedy. States there was a frontal shot at his hairline,right side.
Title: Re: Bullet hole in windshield on JFK's Limo
Post by: John Iacoletti on September 20, 2018, 05:12:46 PM
Clearly the first 3 photos don't show cracks.

Picture bellow clearly show the crack.

If two people say that opposite claims are "clear", then obviously it not clear.
Title: Re: Bullet hole in windshield on JFK's Limo
Post by: John Iacoletti on September 20, 2018, 05:16:35 PM
I'm reposting to show the same windshield crack pattern... I did a Powerpoint 180 flip to match up to the Limo photo from 1963 (which I assume is what we see on the right side panel) - and also changed the angle on the Archives photo to try to match them up... There seem to be enough characteristics to say they are the same windshield, in my opinion.[/size]

They're either identical or they're not.  But when was your right side panel photo taken?

Title: Re: Bullet hole in windshield on JFK's Limo
Post by: John Iacoletti on September 20, 2018, 05:18:19 PM
This photo (can't even read the license plate) and doesn't show a crack unless you want to imagine it.  I could point to the white spot located way below the mirror and infer that there is a bullet hole through and through as it looks like it!    All ridiculous conclusions and not evidence of anything.  To find a crack on Altgens pictures is also ridiculous in my opinion.  People see what they want to see.

(https://emojipedia-us.s3.amazonaws.com/thumbs/120/emoji-one/104/thumbs-up-sign_1f44d.png)
Title: Re: Bullet hole in windshield on JFK's Limo
Post by: Patrick Jackson on September 20, 2018, 06:00:13 PM
Are you the same Patrick Jackson that theorized a 'blood cannon' was used to fake JFK's head exploding ?
Yes, that is me, thank you for remembering.
About the sentence you have embolden, well, yes, it might be referred to me but the thing is that the person on autopsy photos is not JFK so exploding head is still not 100% proved so I still do not have to admit I am wrong.
Title: Re: Bullet hole in windshield on JFK's Limo
Post by: Mark Connors on September 20, 2018, 06:25:19 PM
If two people say that opposite claims are "clear", then obviously it not clear.

Umm... no, not necessarily.

But, I'm not surprised that you would jump to that conclusion without "clearly" thinking it through.

 ::)
Title: Re: Bullet hole in windshield on JFK's Limo
Post by: John Iacoletti on September 20, 2018, 06:37:16 PM
Umm... no, not necessarily.

But, I'm not surprised that you would jump to that conclusion without "clearly" thinking it through.

 ::)

Adding the word "clearly" to a subjective opinion doesn't turn it into a fact.
Title: Re: Bullet hole in windshield on JFK's Limo
Post by: Jerry Organ on September 20, 2018, 06:59:52 PM
Jerry, under no flash light or camera angle this can not be any effect or whatsoever. This can only be mud and nothing else.
(https://i.postimg.cc/zBr1bkNc/4752588738_1f44ebcb2d_b.jpg)
(https://i.postimg.cc/FKc4HBMS/image.jpg)

I'm not ready to dismiss the effect of flash, camera angle, the reflective properties of different materials and photo-quality.

(http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-vzRVCgo7Ux8/T_YTLyg6TQI/AAAAAAAADyo/W5YVHQg24yg/s530/JFK-Limo.jpg)  (http://www.mindspring.com/~pamelajfk/fbiblky3.jpg)
low-res photos
 
"caked-on mud" on rear seat-back
(https://www.jfkassassinationgallery.com/albums/userpics/10001/normal_fbiblkyUnger2.jpg)  (https://www.jfkassassinationgallery.com/albums/userpics/10001/normal_fbiblkyUnger1.jpg)
better-resolution
 
better-resolution

(https://c1.staticflickr.com/5/4135/4752588738_1f44ebcb2d_b.jpg)
"Caked-on mud" pattern on tire sidewalls similar to that on rear seat-back seams,
on chrome trim, on side of jumpseats, etc. Seems consistent with flash and respective
reflective properties. Wheel-well interiors light-in-tone anyway, so probably not mud.
Title: Re: Bullet hole in windshield on JFK's Limo
Post by: Mark Connors on September 20, 2018, 07:14:20 PM
Adding the word "clearly" to a subjective opinion doesn't turn it into a fact.

lol

Spin and twist all you want.

You are intentionally dishonest with many of your posts. The fact that you think your subjective opinion is any more important is quite evident.
Title: Re: Bullet hole in windshield on JFK's Limo
Post by: John Iacoletti on September 20, 2018, 07:52:11 PM
lol

Spin and twist all you want.

You are intentionally dishonest with many of your posts. The fact that you think your subjective opinion is any more important is quite evident.

I don't think my subjective opinion is more important.  I just ask people who consider their subjective opinions to be fact to support them accordingly.

And if I've been intentionally dishonest in many of my posts, then you should be able to point to even a single example of dishonesty.  Maybe you'll have more success than "Richard".  Like every other claim.....easy to make, harder to prove.
Title: Re: Bullet hole in windshield on JFK's Limo
Post by: Mark Connors on September 20, 2018, 11:55:12 PM
I don't think my subjective opinion is more important.  I just ask people who consider their subjective opinions to be fact to support them accordingly.

And if I've been intentionally dishonest in many of my posts, then you should be able to point to even a single example of dishonesty.  Maybe you'll have more success than "Richard".  Like every other claim.....easy to make, harder to prove.

I just did that.

I'm not surprised you didn't notice.

 ;D
Title: Re: Bullet hole in windshield on JFK's Limo
Post by: John Iacoletti on September 20, 2018, 11:58:19 PM
I just did that.

When?  You mean you disagreed with something I said?  That's supposed to be an example of dishonesty?
Title: Re: Bullet hole in windshield on JFK's Limo
Post by: John Mytton on September 21, 2018, 12:01:43 AM
They're either identical or they're not. 

False dichotomy.

JohnM
Title: Re: Bullet hole in windshield on JFK's Limo
Post by: Mark Connors on September 21, 2018, 12:04:29 AM
When?  You mean you disagreed with something I said?  That's supposed to be an example of dishonesty?

lol, yeah, that's what it was, because YOU said it was, right?

How about this one... stating something was a few inches, when in fact, it's actually much closer to a few feet.
Title: Re: Bullet hole in windshield on JFK's Limo
Post by: John Iacoletti on September 21, 2018, 12:10:18 AM
False dichotomy.

No it's actually not.  Take a basic logic class.  What other possibilities would there be besides "identical" or "not identical"?
Title: Re: Bullet hole in windshield on JFK's Limo
Post by: John Iacoletti on September 21, 2018, 12:12:56 AM
lol, yeah, that's what it was, because YOU said it was, right?

How about this one... stating something was a few inches, when in fact, it's actually much closer to a few feet.

You'll have to be more specific.
Title: Re: Bullet hole in windshield on JFK's Limo
Post by: Mark Connors on September 21, 2018, 12:30:13 AM
You'll have to be more specific.

If you don't remember the conversation, there's no need for me to be more specific. You'll just twist and spin like you always do anyways.

The example in this thread clearly shows what you asked as an example of your dishonesty.
Title: Re: Bullet hole in windshield on JFK's Limo
Post by: John Iacoletti on September 21, 2018, 12:43:52 AM
If you don't remember the conversation, there's no need for me to be more specific. You'll just twist and spin like you always do anyways.

Yeah, that's what I thought.

Quote
The example in this thread clearly shows what you asked as an example of your dishonesty.

Amazing.  Provide nothing and then just claim you already provided it.  Just like the evidence in the JFK case.  Clearly.

Title: Re: Bullet hole in windshield on JFK's Limo
Post by: John Mytton on September 21, 2018, 01:20:01 AM
No it's actually not.  Take a basic logic class.  What other possibilities would there be besides "identical" or "not identical"?

They're either identical or they're not.

JohnM

Title: Re: Bullet hole in windshield on JFK's Limo
Post by: Jerry Organ on September 21, 2018, 01:28:17 AM
Showing wheel-wells were lighter-in-tone, made even brighter by flash indoors:
(http://tpepost.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/11/SAN-ANTONIO1.jpg)  (https://i.postimg.cc/rp38Kgrx/image.jpg)
... so probably not mud.

Flash creating appearance of "caked-on-mud" on tire side-walls.
(http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-C4k-TnCl5vk/UpKK4WCjIQI/AAAAAAAACCI/8vNczF49tCk/s1600/John+F.+Kennedy+1962+Lincoln+Continental+Towne+Limousine+Original+Photo.JPG)  (http://jfklancer.com/photos/limo/open.JPG)
(Not same automobile)
Title: Re: Bullet hole in windshield on JFK's Limo
Post by: Mike Orr on September 21, 2018, 02:17:09 AM
With a bullet hole in the windshield and a round bullet entry in the chrome molding of the JFK's limo , a shallow shot in JFK's back as per (move the wound Humes ) , an entrance in the front of JFK's neck , and then a frontal wound of the temple area that blew out the back of JFK's head blowing all kinds of brain matter on Bobby Hargis who was at the left rear of the limo , a missed shot that never even touched the Limo but put a shallow scrapping wound on James Tague's cheek and this is before we get to the wounds of John Connally who we know was shot at least once and more than likely twice . I'm counting  shots and possibly more shots when we look at John Connally's wounds . So when they say there was a flurry of shots that came into the Limo , then I'm thinking of more than 2 shots because one of those supposed shots out of the 3 that LHO was to have fired , missed the whole damn LIMO.  7,8 maybe 9 shots with the limo stopping for the head shot . 3 shots from LHO in the break room ?
Title: Re: Bullet hole in windshield on JFK's Limo
Post by: Jerry Organ on September 21, 2018, 03:13:19 AM
With a bullet hole in the windshield and a round bullet entry in the chrome molding of the JFK's limo , a shallow shot in JFK's back as per (move the wound Humes ) , an entrance in the front of JFK's neck , and then a frontal wound of the temple area that blew out the back of JFK's head blowing all kinds of brain matter on Bobby Hargis who was at the left rear of the limo , a missed shot that never even touched the Limo but put a shallow scrapping wound on James Tague's cheek and this is before we get to the wounds of John Connally who we know was shot at least once and more than likely twice . I'm counting  shots and possibly more shots when we look at John Connally's wounds . So when they say there was a flurry of shots that came into the Limo , then I'm thinking of more than 2 shots because one of those supposed shots out of the 3 that LHO was to have fired , missed the whole damn LIMO.  7,8 maybe 9 shots with the limo stopping for the head shot . 3 shots from LHO in the break room ?
"round bullet entry in the chrome molding"

(https://sites.google.com/site/jfkforum/limo/claims/limoshielddentclearer.jpg)
It's a dent, presumably from the metal fragmentation of the head shot. It's not a bullet hole from a direct strike.
__________
"blew out the back of JFK's head blowing all kinds of brain matter
on Bobby Hargis who was at the left rear of the limo"

Motorcycle Cop Struck by the President's Brain Matter
Proof of a Shot From the Grassy Knoll?   ( Link (http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/hargis.htm) )

    "you've got to take into consideration we were moving at the time, and
     when he got hit all that stuff went like this, and of course I run through it."
                                                     -- Bobby Hargis, 1968
Title: Re: Bullet hole in windshield on JFK's Limo
Post by: Patrick Jackson on September 21, 2018, 10:21:44 AM
Showing wheel-wells were lighter-in-tone, made even brighter by flash indoors:
(http://tpepost.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/11/SAN-ANTONIO1.jpg)  (https://i.postimg.cc/rp38Kgrx/image.jpg)
... so probably not mud.

Flash creating appearance of "caked-on-mud" on tire side-walls.
(http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-C4k-TnCl5vk/UpKK4WCjIQI/AAAAAAAACCI/8vNczF49tCk/s1600/John+F.+Kennedy+1962+Lincoln+Continental+Towne+Limousine+Original+Photo.JPG)  (http://jfklancer.com/photos/limo/open.JPG)
(Not same automobile)
It is very hard to believe and understand why are you trying to show something that there is absolutely no chance in the whole universe to be true... Are you really serious to believe it is flash creating something on the wheels? Did you ever drive your car through a shallow mud? Do you have a car at all? Do you go out of your home at all?
It can be only mud and nothing else. 
Title: Re: Bullet hole in windshield on JFK's Limo
Post by: Patrick Jackson on September 21, 2018, 10:24:54 AM
With a bullet hole in the windshield and a round bullet entry in the chrome molding of the JFK's limo , a shallow shot in JFK's back as per (move the wound Humes ) , an entrance in the front of JFK's neck , and then a frontal wound of the temple area that blew out the back of JFK's head blowing all kinds of brain matter on Bobby Hargis who was at the left rear of the limo , a missed shot that never even touched the Limo but put a shallow scrapping wound on James Tague's cheek and this is before we get to the wounds of John Connally who we know was shot at least once and more than likely twice . I'm counting  shots and possibly more shots when we look at John Connally's wounds . So when they say there was a flurry of shots that came into the Limo , then I'm thinking of more than 2 shots because one of those supposed shots out of the 3 that LHO was to have fired , missed the whole damn LIMO.  7,8 maybe 9 shots with the limo stopping for the head shot . 3 shots from LHO in the break room ?
Looks more like explosion and shells flying all around.
Title: Re: Bullet hole in windshield on JFK's Limo
Post by: Patrick Jackson on September 21, 2018, 10:38:22 AM
(https://i.postimg.cc/CLbC7F8r/image.jpg)
(https://i.postimg.cc/7hywN6XL/image.jpg)
Clearly the above 2 pictures with the cube van in the background are at different locations or the car was moved between photographs!  Why was it moved or were photos taken at 2 different times?  Or is it 2 different trucks with matching bumpers and cabs?
If you take that van into consideration, there are good chances that the pictures were taken in the same garage while the limo moved from one spot to another so there are at least four photos from that garage (same garage, two limo positions).
Is there a record on where the White House Garage is/was? I was trying to find it on the White House plan but no GARAGE anywhere. Suppose it was outside White House complex? Any other pictures of the White House garage?
Title: Re: Bullet hole in windshield on JFK's Limo
Post by: Patrick Jackson on September 21, 2018, 10:50:22 AM
If you take that van into consideration, there are good chances that the pictures were taken in the same garage while the limo moved from one spot to another so there are at least four photos from that garage (same garage, two limo positions).
Is there a record on where the White House Garage is/was? I was trying to find it on the White House plan but no GARAGE anywhere. Suppose it was outside White House complex? Any other pictures of the White House garage?
And here is the MOST interesting part: if bellow two pictures were taken in the same garage (based on the van and hat on the wall), note the mud on the back wheel!!!
Limo was drove in in front of the van, no mud on the back wheel:
(https://i.postimg.cc/7hywN6XL/image.jpg)
Then it was driven who knows where outside the garage and when drove back in the same garage on the different spot, there is mud on the back wheel:
(https://i.postimg.cc/bJnqbbxM/image.jpg)
There is not much importance on the mud but who knows what was done with the limo considering proper investigation and evidence collection.
Title: Re: Bullet hole in windshield on JFK's Limo
Post by: Mark Connors on September 21, 2018, 12:57:12 PM
Yeah, that's what I thought.

Amazing.  Provide nothing and then just claim you already provided it.  Just like the evidence in the JFK case.  Clearly.

I can't link the conversation, because it was prior to the recent forum crash. But you made reference that the package in BWF's back seat is a few inches away from BWF, when it, in fact, would have been closer to a few feet. Dishonesty is your MO.

You stated something, and when someone calls you out on your dishonesty you start your twisting.

Dishonesty at its finest.
Title: Re: Bullet hole in windshield on JFK's Limo
Post by: Royell Storing on September 21, 2018, 02:42:14 PM
And here is the MOST interesting part: if bellow two pictures were taken in the same garage (based on the van and hat on the wall), note the mud on the back wheel!!!
Limo was drove in in front of the van, no mud on the back wheel:
(https://i.postimg.cc/7hywN6XL/image.jpg)
Then it was driven who knows where outside the garage and when drove back in the same garage on the different spot, there is mud on the back wheel:
(https://i.postimg.cc/bJnqbbxM/image.jpg)
There is not much importance on the mud but who knows what was done with the limo considering proper investigation and evidence collection.

     A perfect example of the FBI ineptness is their "examination" of the JFK Limo. The Official Photos taken of the JFK Limo immediately following the assassination were taken with the Front Visors in the DOWN position. As we know, the Limo traveled down Elm St with the Front Visors in the UP position/portions of which extended Above the Limo Windshield. When we see those Visors in the Official Photos, we are seeing the side of the visors which faced Outward as the Limo traveled down Elm St. Those photos give us No Idea as to the condition of the side of the Visors that were facing the Inside of the JFK Limo as the "Flurry" of shells and "Sawdust" material rained down on ASAIC Kellerman and the entire front section of the Limo.   
Title: Re: Bullet hole in windshield on JFK's Limo
Post by: John Iacoletti on September 21, 2018, 05:19:16 PM
I can't link the conversation, because it was prior to the recent forum crash. But you made reference that the package in BWF's back seat is a few inches away from BWF, when it, in fact, would have been closer to a few feet. Dishonesty is your MO.

You stated something, and when someone calls you out on your dishonesty you start your twisting.

Dishonesty at its finest.

Oh brother....and you guys accuse me of nitpicking.  Yes, I underestimated the distance.  How does that make me "dishonest"?Now can you explain how that makes a difference in Frazier's ability to see how much of the back seat the package took up?

Compare that with somebody who knowingly makes a false statement like "the rifle in the backyard photo was proven to be C2766".
Title: Re: Bullet hole in windshield on JFK's Limo
Post by: Mark Connors on September 21, 2018, 06:11:22 PM
Oh brother....and you guys accuse me of nitpicking.  Yes, I underestimated the distance.  How does that make me "dishonest"?Now can you explain how that makes a difference in Frazier's ability to see how much of the back seat the package took up?

Compare that with somebody who knowingly makes a false statement like "the rifle in the backyard photo was proven to be C2766".

The dishonesty bit comes in when you are challenged on an exaggeration to make a point, but refuse to admit it at the time.

But, thank you, for acknowledging it now.

As much as I would like to discuss the other questions and statements above, I think we should stop the thread highjack here.


Title: Re: Bullet hole in windshield on JFK's Limo
Post by: Jerry Organ on September 21, 2018, 07:30:34 PM
(http://i63.tinypic.com/2rc1w6d.jpg)

The elevation of the windshield crack pattern (and its proximity to the rear-view mirror) "varies" because of perspective and camera angle.
Title: Re: Bullet hole in windshield on JFK's Limo
Post by: John Iacoletti on September 21, 2018, 08:33:05 PM
The dishonesty bit comes in when you are challenged on an exaggeration to make a point, but refuse to admit it at the time.

But, thank you, for acknowledging it now.

As much as I would like to discuss the other questions and statements above, I think we should stop the thread highjack here.

I think I acknowledged it at the time too, but whatevs.