JFK Assassination Forum

General Discussion & Debate => General Discussion & Debate => Topic started by: Mike Orr on April 20, 2018, 04:13:28 AM

Title: There was No Roll Call at the TSBD !
Post by: Mike Orr on April 20, 2018, 04:13:28 AM
There was no roll call and on top of that, LHO was not the only TSBD employee who was not inside the TSBD after JFK was murdered.  1 . Jack Cason 2. Gloria Jean Holt 3. Sharon Simmons Nelson 4. Bonnie Richey 5. Carolyn Arnold 6. Mrs. Donald Baker 7. Judy Marie Johnson 8. Mrs. Stella Mae Jacob 9. Charles Givens 10. Virginia H. Brnum 11. Vida Lee Whatley 12. Warren Caster 13.Spauldin "Pud" Jones 14.Mrs. Helen Palmer 15.     7 employees did not go into work on Nov 22

Roy Truly says it was he who first notices Oswald is absent and draws that to the attention of the police .
Title: Re: There was No Roll Call at the TSBD !
Post by: Joe Elliott on April 20, 2018, 05:13:03 AM

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There was no roll call and on top of that, LHO was not the only TSBD employee who was not inside the TSBD after JFK was murdered.  1 . Jack Cason 2. Gloria Jean Holt 3. Sharon Simmons Nelson 4. Bonnie Richey 5. Carolyn Arnold 6. Mrs. Donald Baker 7. Judy Marie Johnson 8. Mrs. Stella Mae Jacob 9. Charles Givens 10. Virginia H. Brnum 11. Vida Lee Whatley 12. Warren Caster 13.Spauldin "Pud" Jones 14.Mrs. Helen Palmer 15.     7 employees did not go into work on Nov 22

Roy Truly says it was he who first notices Oswald is absent and draws that to the attention of the police .



And all these people immediately left the Dealey Plaza area, as one would expect an assassin to likely do? No.

I?m not interested in people who left the building to try to find out what happened and then decided to return inside. Nor in people who were not present in the building that day. Only in people who were present at the time of the shooting, not with others, left the building, and left the Dealey Plaza area, about as soon as possible. And only one person fits the bill.



And it?s natural for Roy Truly to first think about Oswald. Oswald was the only one he vouched for. As soon as he found out that the shots were apparently fired from within his building, it?s natural for him to think of Oswald. The worst-case scenario would be if the assassin turned out to be the one man he vouched for, causing a policeman who had drawn a gun on him to let him go. If the assassin turned out to be, let?s say Lovelady, Roy Truly would not be in nearly such hot water.
Title: Re: There was No Roll Call at the TSBD !
Post by: Bill Chapman on April 20, 2018, 05:16:56 AM
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And all these people immediately left the Dealey Plaza area, as one would expect an assassin to likely do? No.

I?m not interested in people who left the building to try to find out what happened and then decided to return inside. Nor in people who were not present in the building that day. Only in people who were present at the time of the shooting, not with others, left the building, and left the Dealey Plaza area, about as soon as possible. And only one person fits the bill.



And it?s natural for Roy Truly to first think about Oswald. Oswald was the only one he vouched for. As soon as he found out that the shots were apparently fired from within his building, it?s natural for him to think of Oswald. The worst-case scenario would be if the assassin turned out to be the one man he vouched for, causing a policeman who had drawn a gun on him to let him go. If the assassin turned out to be, let?s say Lovelady, Roy Truly would not be in nearly such hot water.

Mike should feel free to name anyone of these people as his shooter...
Title: Re: There was No Roll Call at the TSBD !
Post by: Martin Weidmann on April 20, 2018, 08:46:04 AM
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And all these people immediately left the Dealey Plaza area, as one would expect an assassin to likely do? No.

I?m not interested in people who left the building to try to find out what happened and then decided to return inside. Nor in people who were not present in the building that day. Only in people who were present at the time of the shooting, not with others, left the building, and left the Dealey Plaza area, about as soon as possible. And only one person fits the bill.



And it?s natural for Roy Truly to first think about Oswald. Oswald was the only one he vouched for. As soon as he found out that the shots were apparently fired from within his building, it?s natural for him to think of Oswald. The worst-case scenario would be if the assassin turned out to be the one man he vouched for, causing a policeman who had drawn a gun on him to let him go. If the assassin turned out to be, let?s say Lovelady, Roy Truly would not be in nearly such hot water.

And it?s natural for Roy Truly to first think about Oswald. Oswald was the only one he vouched for. As soon as he found out that the shots were apparently fired from within his building, it?s natural for him to think of Oswald.

Selfserving argument!

Having seen Oswald on the 2nd floor just seconds after the shooting could just as easily have given Truly the impression that Oswald probably wasn't the 6th floor shooter.
Title: Re: There was No Roll Call at the TSBD !
Post by: Walt Cakebread on April 20, 2018, 12:35:23 PM
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Mike should feel free to name anyone of these people as his shooter...

Why....??     Who made the rule that the assassin had to be a TSBD employee??
Title: Re: There was No Roll Call at the TSBD !
Post by: Walt Cakebread on April 20, 2018, 02:29:13 PM
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And all these people immediately left the Dealey Plaza area, as one would expect an assassin to likely do? No.

I?m not interested in people who left the building to try to find out what happened and then decided to return inside. Nor in people who were not present in the building that day. Only in people who were present at the time of the shooting, not with others, left the building, and left the Dealey Plaza area, about as soon as possible. And only one person fits the bill.



And it?s natural for Roy Truly to first think about Oswald. Oswald was the only one he vouched for. As soon as he found out that the shots were apparently fired from within his building, it?s natural for him to think of Oswald. The worst-case scenario would be if the assassin turned out to be the one man he vouched for, causing a policeman who had drawn a gun on him to let him go. If the assassin turned out to be, let?s say Lovelady, Roy Truly would not be in nearly such hot water.

it?s natural for Roy Truly to first think about Oswald. Oswald was the only one he vouched for. As soon as he found out that the shots were apparently fired from within his building, it?s natural for him to think of Oswald.

it?s natural for Roy Truly to first think about Oswald.

Roy Truly had obviously dismissed Lee as a suspect at the time he and Baker encountered Lee in the Lunchroom, because according to the official tale Roy Truly vouched for Lee and that's he reason Baker turned on his heel and left Lee holding a coke in the lunchroom.   

As soon as he found out that the shots were apparently fired from within his building, it?s natural for him to think of Oswald.

Really??...  So you are proposing that at the time Baker told him that he wanted to go to the roof of the building Truly thought of Lee Oswald??    Hmmmm....    That would indicate that Truly had prior knowledge....  Could be.....

Oswald was the only one he vouched for.

No.....   Have you forgotten that Baker said that he saw a man slinking away from the stairs on either the third or fourth floor ?

a policeman who had drawn a gun on him

Liar!!.....   Baker did not draw a gun on Lee Oswald.....Baker already had his revolver in his hand as they climbed the stairs and approached the lunchroom.....
Title: Re: There was No Roll Call at the TSBD !
Post by: Richard Smith on April 21, 2018, 04:46:29 PM
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And it?s natural for Roy Truly to first think about Oswald. Oswald was the only one he vouched for. As soon as he found out that the shots were apparently fired from within his building, it?s natural for him to think of Oswald.

Selfserving argument!

Having seen Oswald on the 2nd floor just seconds after the shooting could just as easily have given Truly the impression that Oswald probably wasn't the 6th floor shooter.

LOL.  How many employees did Truly know had been in the building at the time of the shooting that were suddenly missing in the immediate aftermath?  And he didn't see Oswald on the 2nd floor "just seconds" after the shooting.   Regardless, why would Truly need to have any impression as to whether Oswald was on the 6th floor?  In the earliest stages of the investigation, it was possible the shots could have come from any floor.  He just reported something that he noticed not knowing whether it was important or not.   Or are you suggesting he was part of the conspiracy?  The one you deny you are claiming due to the obvious absurdity of such claim.  But here you imply that Truly was acting in some inexplicable manner to point the finger at Oswald in the immediate aftermath of the assassination.  The same guy who had vouched for him to Baker and allowed him an opportunity to escape.  Oh those nutty conspirators.
Title: Re: There was No Roll Call at the TSBD !
Post by: Martin Weidmann on April 21, 2018, 06:55:25 PM
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LOL.  How many employees did Truly know had been in the building at the time of the shooting that were suddenly missing in the immediate aftermath?  And he didn't see Oswald on the 2nd floor "just seconds" after the shooting.   Regardless, why would Truly need to have any impression as to whether Oswald was on the 6th floor?  In the earliest stages of the investigation, it was possible the shots could have come from any floor.  He just reported something that he noticed not knowing whether it was important or not.   Or are you suggesting he was part of the conspiracy?  The one you deny you are claiming due to the obvious absurdity of such claim.  But here you imply that Truly was acting in some inexplicable manner to point the finger at Oswald in the immediate aftermath of the assassination.  The same guy who had vouched for him to Baker and allowed him an opportunity to escape.  Oh those nutty conspirators.


And he didn't see Oswald on the 2nd floor "just seconds" after the shooting.

Ah.. another word game. OK, I'll bite... what would be "just seconds" to you? The point I made, which went completely over your head, is that Truly had seen Oswald on the 2nd floor just after the shooting (regardless of how many seconds it was), standing there calm and collective.

Joe Elliott made the pathetic claim that it was natural for Truly to think of Oswald, as soon as he found out that the shots were fired from his building, when in fact there was nothing natural about it. Truly had just vouched for Oswald. No rational thought process would make him select Oswald as the "natural" choice. 


But here you imply that Truly was acting in some inexplicable manner to point the finger at Oswald in the immediate aftermath of the assassination.

Oh boy, don't you ever get tired of making stuff up?
Title: Re: There was No Roll Call at the TSBD !
Post by: Bill Chapman on April 21, 2018, 07:09:12 PM
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Having seen Oswald on the 2nd floor just seconds after the shooting could just as easily have given Truly the impression that Oswald probably wasn't the 6th floor shooter.

'Just seconds'

Having seen Oswald on the second floor 'just seconds' after the shooting could 'just' as easily have given Truly (who knew the building) the idea that a killer in a hurry could have descended the stairs in 'just seconds'
Title: Re: There was No Roll Call at the TSBD !
Post by: Joe Elliott on April 22, 2018, 12:53:57 AM

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Is that what Truly told the commission or did you make that up?


I make a logical guess. Roy Truly vouched for Oswald while a police officer had a gun pointed at him. Then, he soon found out a hidden rifle was found in the building. It?s logical his first thought would be on the employee he vouched for. What if Oswald was the shooter?

Does Truly explain this? Of course not. He doesn?t want to freely admit that he feared, for a while, of being part of a conspiracy, which he didn?t really take part in.

Question:

Why is it speculation to state Truly probably was thinking of Oswald as a possible shooter first because Truly vouched for Oswald, which would be bad if it turned out Oswald was the shooter?

Why is it not speculation to state Truly probably alerted the police about Oswald because Truly was part of the conspiracy to frame Oswald?




Yes. Roy Truly did not state he first did a quick check to see if Oswald was in the building because he had vouched for him and did not want the police to suspect he was in on the conspiracy with Oswald. But he also did not state he alerted the police because he was involved in a conspiracy to frame Oswald.
Title: Re: There was No Roll Call at the TSBD !
Post by: Joe Elliott on April 22, 2018, 12:57:18 AM

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And it?s natural for Roy Truly to first think about Oswald. Oswald was the only one he vouched for. As soon as he found out that the shots were apparently fired from within his building, it?s natural for him to think of Oswald.

Selfserving argument!

Having seen Oswald on the 2nd floor just seconds after the shooting could just as easily have given Truly the impression that Oswald probably wasn't the 6th floor shooter.


It took Mr. Truly and Officer Baker about 75 seconds after the last shot to reach the second floor landing. Why should Truly assume that Oswald could not have reached the second floor in 75 seconds as well?

Oswald actually has less distance to cover than Officer Baker, who lost some time while he and Truly waited for an elevator that never came.
Title: Re: There was No Roll Call at the TSBD !
Post by: Joe Elliott on April 22, 2018, 03:24:02 AM

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So the man who actually brought the rifles into the TSBD two days before, Warren Caster, never crossed his mind according to you. Sure, that makes sense. NOT!

The official narrative is ridiculous. This issue clearly shows the conspiracy in action.



Questions:

Did Warren Caster come to the building at all that day?

If he did, did he leave the building?

Did Roy Truly know Oswald as long and as well as he knew Warren Caster?




I think there could be a lot of reasons why Warren Caster would not be the first one to come to mind. Should Mr. Truly think of everyone he ever saw handling a rifle before thinking of Oswald? Even if they had not come into the building that day and then disappeared?
Title: Re: There was No Roll Call at the TSBD !
Post by: Joe Elliott on April 22, 2018, 03:57:59 AM

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Joe Elliott made the pathetic claim that it was natural for Truly to think of Oswald, as soon as he found out that the shots were fired from his building, when in fact there was nothing natural about it. Truly had just vouched for Oswald. No rational thought process would make him select Oswald as the "natural" choice. 



I doubt Roy Truly would have vouched for Oswald if he had thought the shots had come from that building. Once he learned the shots had come from the building, the unthinkable became the thinkable. One of his employees may have been the assassin. Any of his employees, who were not with him, might be the assassin.

Imagine how Mr. Truly might think things may look to the police. Shots are fired from the TSBD. Within a minute, Officer Baker rushes into the building. Mr. Truly ?just happens? to be conveniently on hand ?to guide? the officer. He only wants to help the police. The officer confronts a man, who, if he was the shooter, just traveled roughly the same distance Mr. Baker did, indeed, less. But Mr. Truly vouches for the man and leads the officer away from him up to the upper floors.

Imagine what the police are going to think if it turns out that Oswald immediately disappeared and Mr. Truly never mentions this to the police ? Are the police really going to shrunk and ignore all this? The police grilled young Wesley Buell Frazier for hours for a lot less. If Oswald is the assassin, Mr. Truly needs to start acting now, go to the police, right away.



Was Oswald the only person Mr. Truly mentioned? I imagine not. Does anyone know that Mr. Truly did not ever talk to the police about Warren Caster?s rifle?



Martin, it is you who is resorting to pathetic claims. Basically, there are two possibilities:

1.    Truly told the police about Oswald apparently leaving the building because he belated learned the shots had come form the building and one of his employees, perhaps the man he vouched for, could be the assassin.

2.   Truly told the police about Oswald apparently leaving the building because he wanted Oswald to be caught.

It is you who pretends that one of these possibilities is not worthy of consideration, not me. It is you who is grasping at straws.


While Possibility 2 may be true, I think there are strong reasons against it.

** The evidence really does look live Oswald alone killed the President.

** If Truly?s mission is to get Oswald caught, why vouch for Oswald? Why not say something like ?I think the shots came from above, from this building. Where were you, Oswald? Why weren?t you with the others?? That can result in Oswald being caught right away, instead of letting him get away and tell God knows who all he knows. The sooner Oswald is in police custody the better.

** If the answer is, so Oswald can also be framed for the murder of Officer Tippit, is this really necessary? Might the Dallas Police be really angry when they suspect they were doubled crossed and one of their officers sacrificed? Don?t they really need the cooperation of the Dallas Police go frame Oswald? Couldn?t they arrange for the murder of someone who does not come from a group whose cooperation they really, really need over the next few days?


Possibility 1 is simple and straight forward. Possibility 2 involving assuming there was a conspiracy that made all sorts of non-sensical decisions. Like letting Oswald get away for a while.



In any case, one can?t assume that Possibility 1 makes no sense, no sense what-so-ever and so that Possibility 2 is the only answer. That is just not logical reasoning.
Title: Re: There was No Roll Call at the TSBD !
Post by: Joe Elliott on April 22, 2018, 04:08:21 AM

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Did Warren Caster come to the building at all that day?

No, he was absent. Was Mr Truly aware of this?



Why should Mr. Truly suspect someone who he never saw that day over someone who he knows was in the building that day?

Should we expect Mr. Truly to tell the police about all the people he ever saw handle a rifle before he mentions Oswald?

And do we even know that Mr. Truly never told the police about Warren Caster?s rifle?



And if Mr. Truly saw a policeman confront Oswald on Wednesday and Warren Caster show a rifle on Friday, then, yes, I would think it would appear strange for Mr. Truly to tell the police about Oswald and not Caster. But that?s not the way it happened.



And maybe Mr. Truly thought he knew Caster well but didn?t know Oswald all that well. And if Caster was guilty, why would he be showing the rifle to anyone? That thought alone might eliminate Caster as a suspect in Mr. Truly?s mind.
Title: Re: There was No Roll Call at the TSBD !
Post by: Joe Elliott on April 22, 2018, 04:19:17 AM

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How did Mr Truly rule out Jack Dougherty as a potential assassin/co-conspirator as he saw him on an upper floor higher than the second floor lunch room?



Would an assassin likely be lingering on the upper floors? Wouldn?t an assassin likely get away.

And, if it turns out the assassin was Dougherty, at least Mr. Truly did not persuade the police to let him go while he was being held at gunpoint.
Title: Re: There was No Roll Call at the TSBD !
Post by: Joe Elliott on April 22, 2018, 05:54:42 AM

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And do we even know that Mr. Truly never told the police about Warren Caster?s rifle?

I would say the ONLY reason why Caster's name and the rifles ever got brought up was what Lee told Fritz about seeing the rifles in Mr Truly's possession.



I would like something more than your say so.

Do we know that Mr. Truly told the police about Oswald leaving the building but did not say he saw Caster with a rifle?

If so, let?s hear the evidence.

For all we know, Mr. Truly mentioned both.
Title: Re: There was No Roll Call at the TSBD !
Post by: Bill Chapman on April 22, 2018, 08:08:31 AM
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No, like Richard, you just made that up to keep your fantasy alive.

Representative FORD. Had there been any traits that you had noticed from the time of his employment that might have made you think then that there was a connection between the shooting and Oswald?
Mr. TRULY. Not at all. In fact, I was fooled so completely by the sound of--the direction of the shot, that I did not believe still did not believe maybe I could not force myself to believe, that the shots came from that building until I learned that they found the gun and the shells there. So I had no feeling whatever that they did come from there.

No fantasy seeing Oswald appear, in Martin's 'just seconds' after the last shot. Are you sure someone else here isn't keeping a fantasy of his own alive by?seemingly?implying that 75-90 seconds was too little time ('just seconds) to make the  descent?
Title: Re: There was No Roll Call at the TSBD !
Post by: Walt Cakebread on April 22, 2018, 05:09:01 PM
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The official narrative is so silly as it tells us that Truly vouches for LHO in the second floor lunchroom, but suspects him him a short time later to the point of notifying the authorities. Ridiculous.

Exactly right!!......
Title: Re: There was No Roll Call at the TSBD !
Post by: Jack Nessan on April 23, 2018, 02:05:59 PM
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I guess the FBI, DP and WC totally ignored Arnold Rowland then  ;)

Mr. CASTER. Well, I left the Depository during the noon hour and had lunch and, while out for the lunch hour, I stopped by Sanger-Harris sporting goods department to look for a rifle for my son's birthday---I beg your pardon, Christmas present--son's Christmas present, and while I was there I purchased the single-shot .22--single shot--and at the same time was looking at some deer rifles. I had, oh, for several years been thinking about buying a deer rifle and they happened to have one that I liked and I purchased the .30-06 while I was there.

Mr. ROWLAND - No. In proportion to the scope it appeared to me to be a .30-odd size 6, a deer rifle with a fairly large or powerful scope.
Mr. SPECTER - When you say, .30-odd-6, exactly what did you mean by that?
Mr. ROWLAND - That is a rifle that is used quite frequently for deer hunting. It is an import.
Mr. SPECTER - Do you own any rifles?
Mr. ROWLAND - No; my stepfather does.
Mr. SPECTER - Have you ever gone hunting deer with such a rifle?
Mr. ROWLAND - Yes; I have.
Mr. SPECTER - And is that a .30-odd-6 rifle that you have hunted deer with?
Mr. ROWLAND - Yes.

Sure Caster's rifle didn't have a scope on it on the Wednesday- but damn it - the gunman that Rowland saw at 12.15 pm just happened to be "hunting for deer" with the same rifle type on the 6th floor of the TSBD?

We have the same location that a .30-06 rifle was brought into and no one from the FBI was curious enough to even inspect it?



It is very obvious why they ignored him. They didn't have to do anything, Rowland proved himself wrong with his own statement.
Title: Re: There was No Roll Call at the TSBD !
Post by: Richard Smith on April 23, 2018, 03:06:02 PM
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Truly has always been suspicious to me.

Isn't everyone except Oswald suspicious to you in this case?  You think it is suspicious that Truly noticed and reported Oswald missing but not that Oswald was missing and had left for the day to get his gun and shoot a police officer etc.  LOL.
Title: Re: There was No Roll Call at the TSBD !
Post by: Richard Smith on April 23, 2018, 03:13:13 PM
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So the man who actually brought the rifles into the TSBD two days before, Warren Caster, never crossed his mind according to you. Sure, that makes sense. NOT!

The official narrative is ridiculous. This issue clearly shows the conspiracy in action.

So Truly was supposed to be suspicious of a guy who wasn't even there that day?  It's the "two days before" part that you should reflect upon before embarrassing yourself with nonsense like this.  At over fifty years and counting there is zero credible evidence that links either Truly or Caster to this event.  You, who otherwise pretends to be concerned with the legal rights of guilty parties such as Oswald, should be particularly ashamed to cast false accusations against folks for whom there is no evidence to link them to this crime. 
Title: Re: There was No Roll Call at the TSBD !
Post by: Richard Smith on April 23, 2018, 03:37:22 PM
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And he didn't see Oswald on the 2nd floor "just seconds" after the shooting.

Ah.. another word game. OK, I'll bite... what would be "just seconds" to you? The point I made, which went completely over your head, is that Truly had seen Oswald on the 2nd floor just after the shooting (regardless of how many seconds it was), standing there calm and collective.

Joe Elliott made the pathetic claim that it was natural for Truly to think of Oswald, as soon as he found out that the shots were fired from his building, when in fact there was nothing natural about it. Truly had just vouched for Oswald. No rational thought process would make him select Oswald as the "natural" choice. 


But here you imply that Truly was acting in some inexplicable manner to point the finger at Oswald in the immediate aftermath of the assassination.

Oh boy, don't you ever get tired of making stuff up?

Let's me get this one straight.  By questioning Truly's motives in pointing out that Oswald was missing, you are not implying that Truly was involved in any conspiracy or frame up in the assassination?  It's hard to square with a statement like "No rational thought process would make him select Oswald as the "natural" choice."  That clearly implies that you are suggesting that Truly did so for some sinister reason.  Why do you think he did this if you are not suggesting it has anything to do with his involvement in a conspiracy to frame Oswald?  Once again you appear to be trying to have your cake and eat it too.  You imply something, but then refuse to own it because of the obvious absurdity and inability to provide any proof.  Maybe if you explained to us why you think Truly pointed out Oswald was missing despite "no rational thought process" for doing so maybe that would clear up your position on the matter.
Title: Re: There was No Roll Call at the TSBD !
Post by: Jack Nessan on April 24, 2018, 02:49:10 PM
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Not quite - The WC had asked the FBI to do a thorough check on his "background" after he gave his WC testimony.

https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=11187&search=arnold_rowland+fbi#relPageId=2&tab=page

The WC became "concerned" because he saw an unarmed "elderly Negro" in the SE window ("SN" window) of the 6th floor from 12.15 pm - 12.25 pm. Because he didn't disclose this observation to his wife, they didn't believe him. Rowland (who found out where the shots had been fired from the day after) had mentioned the Negro gentleman to the FBI officers on the Saturday, but according to Rowland they were "not interested". They were interested in whether he could ID the gunman - he could not. He was interviewed SEVEN times by the FBI.

The WC DID believe his observation of a white male gunman at the SW end of the 6th floor at 12.15 pm because he had disclosed this information to his wife.

However, 10 minutes or so post shots, he mentioned observing TWO people on the 6th floor - one an armed white male to Officer Craig.

Several other witnesses had also seen TWO people on the 6th floor.

The presence of an additional person on the 6th floor could possibly mean an accomplice or co-conspirator. This didn't bode well for a "LN scenario".

Since Arnold mentioned an "elderly Negro" they (FBI) took him to his word and the FBI looked at Piper and West, neither of which had a red/green shirt that day or were on the 6th floor.

Problem was - Arnold was at some distance from the TSBD and he could not have possibly accurately
"guessed" the age of the Negro gentleman.

What the WC did know and didn't disclose to Rowland was that there was a tall, thin, short haired Negro gentleman who wore a green Khaki shirt and was on the 6th floor after 12 noon and admitted to leaving the floor when he heard both Norman and Jarman arrive onto the 5th floor (12.25 pm onward). He was Bonnie Ray Williams (BRW).

Instead of doing the obvious and challenging BRW with the observation of Rowland or showing a photo of BRW to Rowland - the WC set out to use the FBI to discredit him instead.

Mr David Belin also used Arnold's wife to "character assassinate" him as well.


The only person assassinating Rowland's character was Rowland. Apparently you feel it is appropriate to choose the parts of his statement that are truthful and ignore the obvious descrepancies. He contradicts himself in his own statement and claims everyone that records his statement from the FBI to the Dallas Sheriff Dept didn't record it properly.


Your original post concerned Rowland seeing a man with a ?30-odd six? rifle. There is no such thing as a ?30 odd six?, Arnold made that up. Secondly, you cannot tell the caliber of a rifle from 100 feet away, Arnold fabricated that too. The only way to know is read what it says on the barrel, everything else would be a guess. Additionally JFK was killed with 6.5mm caliber bullets not a ?30 odd six.? This is just one of many parts of his statement that are easily seen to be fabricated. A few of the fabrications were volunteered by Rowland without anyone even asking him a question.
Rowland was caught fabricating numerous parts of his statement, incredibly he could not even give the same answer twice to the question did he look back at the window after he heard the shot. Giving different answers to the same question is the cornerstone of his statement.


Arnold Rowland could not answer a simple question. The yes, maybe, no answer to: "did you look at the building after the shot?" question.

YES ANSWER:
 Representative FORD - You never again, after the motorcade once came into your view, looked back at the School Depository Building?
Mr. ROWLAND - I did after the shots were fired.

MAYBE ANSWER:

Mr. SPECTER - Did you have any impression or reaction as to the point of origin when you heard the first noise?
Mr. ROWLAND - Well, I began looking, I didn't look at the building mainly, and as practically any of' the police officers that were there then will tell you, the echo effect was such that it sounded like it came from the railroad yards. That is where I looked, that is where all the policemen, everyone, converged on the railroads.

NO ANSWER:

Mr. SPECTER - After the shots occurred, did you ever look back at the Texas School Book Depository Building?
Mr. ROWLAND - No; I did not. In fact, I went over toward the scene of the railroad yards myself.




The answer to Ford?s question about returning to Dealey Plaza explains Arnold?s ever changing story.


The CHAIRMAN - Anything further, Congressman Ford?
Representative FORD - Mr. Rowland, have you ever had occasion to go back to the scene and reconstruct it? Have you ever gone back--
The CHAIRMAN - Supposing we take a few minutes recess.
Mr. ROWLAND - The answer to that question is yes; I do all the time. I pass that area very frequently.

Rowland reconstructed the assassination in his mind until he finally convinces himself there was another person.





Rowland fabricated numerous parts of his testimony, an additional person in the SN was just one of them.
Title: Re: There was No Roll Call at the TSBD !
Post by: Tim Nickerson on April 24, 2018, 04:04:25 PM
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Your original post concerned Rowland seeing a man with a ?30-odd six? rifle. There is no such thing as a ?30 odd six?, Arnold made that up.

The proper pronunciation is thirty-aught-six. However, where I come from, it is commonly pronounced as thirty-odd six.  Arnold never made that one up.
Title: Re: There was No Roll Call at the TSBD !
Post by: John Iacoletti on April 24, 2018, 06:06:54 PM
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Secondly, you cannot tell the caliber of a rifle from 100 feet away, Arnold fabricated that too. The only way to know is read what it says on the barrel, everything else would be a guess.

Then did Brennan (or whoever gave the police this description) fabricate that "the type of weapon looked like a 30-30 rifle or some type of Winchester"?

Quote
Additionally JFK was killed with 6.5mm caliber bullets not a ?30 odd six.?

How did you determine that JFK was killed with 6.5mm caliber bullets?

Quote
Rowland reconstructed the assassination in his mind until he finally convinces himself there was another person.

You mean the way Brennan reconstructed the assassination in his mind until he finally convinced himself that it was Oswald he saw with a rifle?
Title: Re: There was No Roll Call at the TSBD !
Post by: Richard Smith on April 24, 2018, 08:24:33 PM
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You're lying again. I have stated many times over the years that I think LHO could've been involved, thus, he too is suspicious.

What I don't do like LNers is blame him for things there is NO evidence for. The claims of him shooting JFK, JBC and JDT are NOT supported by any evidence. End of story.

He could've been involved, but since NO real real investigation ever took place we will probably never know how.

In all your tens of thousands of silly posts, I've never seen you state that Oswald was "involved" or "suspicious."  Since you didn't miss a beat here exonerating him once again from any of the crimes that day, why do you believe he was "involved"and what do you believe he was involved in if there is no evidence? 
Title: Re: There was No Roll Call at the TSBD !
Post by: Walt Cakebread on April 24, 2018, 11:36:44 PM
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Further to the hilarious explanation of Oswald missing...

Representative FORD. When you noticed the police assembling the employees after the assassination, what prompted you to think that Oswald was not among them?
Mr. TRULY. I have asked myself that many times. I cannot give an answer. Unless it was the fact that I knew he was on the second floor, I had seen him 10 or 15 minutes, or whatever it was, before that. That might have brought that boy's name to my mind--because I was looking over there and he was the only one I missed at that time that I could think of. Subconsciously it might have been because I saw him on the second floor and I knew he was in the building.


Combine this with:

representative FORD. Had there been any traits that you had noticed from the time of his employment that might have made you think then that there was a connection between the shooting and Oswald?
Mr. TRULY. Not at all. In fact, I was fooled so completely by the sound of--the direction of the shot, that I did not believe still did not believe maybe I could not force myself to believe, that the shots came from that building until I learned that they found the gun and the shells there. So I had no feeling whatever that they did come from there.


Now, since he did not learn of any gun found until he talked to Fritz (Oswald missing) his subconscious mind didn't really have anything to work with to motivate Truly to report Oswald, did it?

Consider the conditions:

Mr. TRULY. When I got back to the first floor, at first I didn't see anything except officers running around, reporters in the place. There was a regular madhouse.
Mr. BELIN. Had they sealed off the building yet, do you know?
Mr. TRULY. I am sure they had.
Mr. BELIN. Then what?
Mr. TRULY. Then in a few minutes--it could have been moments or minutes at a time like that--I noticed some of my boys were over in the west corner of the shipping department, and there were several officers over there taking their names and addresses, and so forth.
There were other officers in other parts of the building taking other employees, like office people's names. I noticed that Lee Oswald was not among these boys.
So I picked up the telephone and called Mr. Aiken down at the other warehouse who keeps our application blanks. Back up there.
First I mentioned to Mr. Campbell--I asked Bill Shelley if he had seen him, he looked around and said no.


So, the first floor is a madhouse, he sees SOME of his boys there and officers taking names. So why would he expect Oswald to be RIGHT there when he could have been gone out to see what happened and been prevented from reentering due to the lock down of the building?

Why does he only ask Shelley if Oswald is around and NOT his coworkers, especially THE guy to ask: Wesley Buell Frazier? The only guy known to hang out with Oswald and the guy who Truly himself assigned to train Oswald.

Truly's affidavit is even more dubious as he claims to have checked his employees and didn't find Lee. "Find" implies he was actively looking for Oswald which, according to his WC testimony, he was not.

That is supported by Frazier:

Mr. BALL - Did you hear anybody around there asking for Lee Oswald?
Mr. FRAZIER - No, sir; I didn't.


OK, he might have missed the search as he dived into the basement to lunch!

The final nail in the coffin to this fabrication is, by Truly's own admission, that there were officers taking names of employees on the upper floors where he had just seen Dougherty (fifth floor!) on his way down -- there is no viable explanation for Truly reporting Oswald "missing".


So, the first floor is a madhouse, he sees SOME of his boys there and officers taking names. So why would he expect Oswald to be RIGHT there when he could have been gone out to see what happened

Moreover....  Truly had seen Lee in the second floor lunchroom about ten minutes prior to witnessing the madhouse on the first floor and only SOME of his employees were present.....But he illuminated Lee Oswald as the ONLY employee who was mot present....   

The very fact that Roy Truly was obviously setting Lee Oswald up  should be enough to cause any reasoning person pause....
Title: Re: There was No Roll Call at the TSBD !
Post by: Jack Nessan on April 25, 2018, 02:01:59 PM
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?30-odd six? rifle

How about a simple transcription error (Thirty Ought Six) by the court transcriber that was repeated and not corrected?

Mr. SPECTER - When you say, .30-odd-6, exactly what did you mean by that?
Mr. SPECTER - And is that a .30-odd-6 rifle that you have hunted deer with?
Mr. SPECTER - Was the rifle which you observed similar to, or perhaps identical with, .30-odd rifles which you have seen before?
Mr. SPECTER - Have you seen such .30-odd rifles before at close range which had telescopic sights?

In an FBI report dated 23/11/1963 it had "and holding what appeared to be a .306 rifle with telescopic sight on the sixth floor of the Texas School Book Depository."

There is no "odd" in the description.

he finally convinces himself there was another person.

No - there was another person on the 6th floor who left remnants of his lunch exactly where Rowland saw the Negro gentleman who fit his description except for the age.

The gunman and BRW were on the same floor for 10 minutes.


The count of people altering Rowland's statement is now up to four. Maybe the problem is Rowland.

.306 ....Or the FBI Agent wrote it down exactly like he said it, Three OH Six. Just like the 30 Odd Six another cartridge that doesn't exist. The US military had recently developed a new cartridge to be used in the M1A's called the .308, pronounced Three OH Eight, Rowland makes up his own cartridge again and calls it the Three OH Six which is what the FBI Agent wrote down.  The British also had a cartridge called the Three OH Three (.303) from World War II. Once again he gets it wrong. Apparently he changed from Three OH Six to 30 Odd Six. Either way Specter shows he has know idea what he is talking about. Once again you cannot tell the caliber of a rifle from a distance.


===========================


All Rowland had to do was repeat his affidavit from 11/22 but he was unable to to that without embelishing the story. Rowland never seen anyone in the other window. The first mention of an additional person in the SN does not occurr until he is interviewed by the WC. Even then his description of the person is a developed as the interview progresses.


At first he isn't even sure what this supposed person looks like let alone that he describes BRW.

This is not a description of Bonnie Ray Williams. Rowland is not sure he is even a colored man.

Mr. ROWLAND - At the time I saw the man in the other window, I saw this man hanging out the window first. It was a colored man, I think.



Now he starts to add to the description. He is a Negro and an elderly one.

Mr. SPECTER - Will you describe with as much particularity as you can what that man looked like?
Mr. ROWLAND - It seemed to me an elderly Negro, that is about all. I didn't pay very much attention to him.



Now Rowland really adds to the description and it is definitely not a description of BRW. He even goes as far as to describe the height and weight of a man that he says is hanging out of the window.

Mr. SPECTER - Mr. Rowland, a couple of other questions.
Are you able to give us any other type of a description of the Negro gentleman whom you observed in the window we marked "A" with respect to height, weight, age?
Mr. ROWLAND - He was very thin, an elderly gentleman, bald or practically bald, very thin hair if he wasn't bald. Had on a plaid shirt. I think it was red and green, very bright color, that is why I remember it.
Mr. SPECTER - Can you give us an estimate as to age?
Mr. ROWLAND - Fifty; possibly 55 or 60.
Mr. SPECTER - Can you give us an estimate as to height?
Mr. ROWLAND - 5'8", 5'10", in that neighborhood. He was very slender, very thin.
Mr. SPECTER - Can you give us a more definite description as to complexion?
Mr. ROWLAND - Very dark or fairly dark, not real dark compared to some Negroes, but fairly dark. Seemed like his face was either--I can't recall detail but it was either very wrinkled or marked in some way.

Number one that in no way is a description of BRW. Is there any real doubt why the WC did not believe a word that Rowland told them? He could not tell the same story twice. He is shown by Slpecter and the WC members over and over again to be fabricating his story and embellishing the details. This is why Ford finally asks him :

Representative FORD - Mr. Rowland, have you ever had occasion to go back to the scene and reconstruct it? Have you ever gone back--
The CHAIRMAN - Supposing we take a few minutes recess.
Mr. ROWLAND - The answer to that question is yes; I do all the time. I pass that area very frequently.





Title: Re: There was No Roll Call at the TSBD !
Post by: Jack Nessan on April 25, 2018, 02:07:04 PM
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The proper pronunciation is thirty-aught-six. However, where I come from, it is commonly pronounced as thirty-odd six.  Arnold never made that one up.

Specter obviously felt he did. I completely agree with Specter.
Title: Re: There was No Roll Call at the TSBD !
Post by: Jack Nessan on April 25, 2018, 02:17:00 PM
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Then did Brennan (or whoever gave the police this description) fabricate that "the type of weapon looked like a 30-30 rifle or some type of Winchester"?

How did you determine that JFK was killed with 6.5mm caliber bullets?

You mean the way Brennan reconstructed the assassination in his mind until he finally convinced himself that it was Oswald he saw with a rifle?


I know exactly what is being referenced by the term 30-30 and Winchester type. Maybe this person has the same limited knowledge of firearms demonstrated by Rowland.

They did not find any trace of poison.

Brennan's contribution to the understanding of the assassination is not IDing LHO. I thought Curry said no one could place LHO with the rifle in the window. If you have better canidate than LHO as the shooter then explain it.
Title: Re: There was No Roll Call at the TSBD !
Post by: Bill Chapman on April 25, 2018, 04:32:14 PM
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Not quite - The WC had asked the FBI to do a thorough check on his "background" after he gave his WC testimony.

https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=11187&search=arnold_rowland+fbi#relPageId=2&tab=page

The WC became "concerned" because he saw an unarmed "elderly Negro" in the SE window ("SN" window) of the 6th floor from 12.15 pm - 12.25 pm. Because he didn't disclose this observation to his wife, they didn't believe him. Rowland (who found out where the shots had been fired from the day after) had mentioned the Negro gentleman to the FBI officers on the Saturday, but according to Rowland they were "not interested". They were interested in whether he could ID the gunman - he could not. He was interviewed SEVEN times by the FBI.

The WC DID believe his observation of a white male gunman at the SW end of the 6th floor at 12.15 pm because he had disclosed this information to his wife.

However, 10 minutes or so post shots, he mentioned observing TWO people on the 6th floor - one an armed white male to Officer Craig.

Several other witnesses had also seen TWO people on the 6th floor.

The presence of an additional person on the 6th floor could possibly mean an accomplice or co-conspirator. This didn't bode well for a "LN scenario".

Since Arnold mentioned an "elderly Negro" they (FBI) took him to his word and the FBI looked at Piper and West, neither of which had a red/green shirt that day or were on the 6th floor.

Problem was - Arnold was at some distance from the TSBD and he could not have possibly accurately
"guessed" the age of the Negro gentleman.

What the WC did know and didn't disclose to Rowland was that there was a tall, thin, short haired Negro gentleman who wore a green Khaki shirt and was on the 6th floor after 12 noon and admitted to leaving the floor when he heard both Norman and Jarman arrive onto the 5th floor (12.25 pm onward). He was Bonnie Ray Williams (BRW).

Instead of doing the obvious and challenging BRW with the observation of Rowland or showing a photo of BRW to Rowland - the WC set out to use the FBI to discredit him instead.

Mr David Belin also used Arnold's wife to "character assassinate" him as well.

People saw men on various floors and some where not sure which floor. List those who saw men on the sixth floor for sure

"The WC DID believe his observation of a white male gunman at the SW end of the 6th floor at 12.15 pm because he had disclosed this information to his wife".
>LOL. Is that the 'disclosed' information to his wife that he saw a white male at 12:15 but had disappeared by the time his wife looked?

And by the way, why are you calling the fact that Rowland had a backstory of being essentially a BS artist a character assassination? It Brennan for instance had a backstory of being untruthful and a braggart, you little GD hypocrites would be all over that.
Title: Re: There was No Roll Call at the TSBD !
Post by: Bill Chapman on April 25, 2018, 04:47:35 PM
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I know exactly what is being referenced by the term 30-30 and Winchester type. Maybe this person has the same limited knowledge of firearms demonstrated by Rowland.

They did not find any trace of poison.

Brennan's contribution to the understanding of the assassination is not IDing LHO. I thought Curry said no one could place LHO with the rifle in the window. If you have better canidate than LHO as the shooter then explain it.

Brennan if fact testified as to his lack of expertise regarding firearms
Title: Re: There was No Roll Call at the TSBD !
Post by: John Iacoletti on April 25, 2018, 11:14:31 PM
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.306 ....Or the FBI Agent wrote it down exactly like he said it, Three OH Six. Just like the 30 Odd Six another cartridge that doesn't exist. The US military had recently developed a new cartridge to be used in the M1A's called the .308, pronounced Three OH Eight, Rowland makes up his own cartridge again and calls it the Three OH Six which is what the FBI Agent wrote down.  The British also had a cartridge called the Three OH Three (.303) from World War II. Once again he gets it wrong. Apparently he changed from Three OH Six to 30 Odd Six. Either way Specter shows he has know idea what he is talking about. Once again you cannot tell the caliber of a rifle from a distance.

Have you really never heard "thirty aught six" before?  Where are you from?

Quote
All Rowland had to do was repeat his affidavit from 11/22 but he was unable to to that without embelishing the story.

Why are you special-pleading Rowland?  Brennan mentioned details in his testimony that he didn't give in his affidavit.  Like the small matter that it was Oswald he saw.  Brennan also went as far as describing the height, weight, and age of a guy he saw hanging out of a window.  And his description didn't match Oswald.

Could it be that you're focused on Rowland's inconsistencies just because you don't like what he reported?  We know BRW was up there during that time, which is more than we can say about Oswald.
Title: Re: There was No Roll Call at the TSBD !
Post by: John Iacoletti on April 25, 2018, 11:24:40 PM
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Brennan's contribution to the understanding of the assassination is not IDing LHO.

What exactly do you think his contribution is?

Quote
If you have better canidate than LHO as the shooter then explain it.

If you can show that LHO was the shooter then explain it.
Title: Re: There was No Roll Call at the TSBD !
Post by: John Iacoletti on April 25, 2018, 11:28:43 PM
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And by the way, why are you calling the fact that Rowland had a backstory of being essentially a BS artist a character assassination? It Brennan for instance had a backstory of being untruthful and a braggart, you little GD hypocrites would be all over that.

Strawman.  But has it ever occurred to you why the WC specifically set out to discredit Rowland and didn't do that to Brennan or any other witness who supported their conclusions?
Title: Re: There was No Roll Call at the TSBD !
Post by: Colin Crow on April 26, 2018, 01:33:52 AM
Rowland did exaggerate.....BRW's age. Why do Jarman and Norman get away with repeatedly lying about Williams being with them on the elevator ascent up until their appearances before the WC? How come they get a free pass?
Title: Re: There was No Roll Call at the TSBD !
Post by: Walt Cakebread on April 26, 2018, 02:11:39 AM
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Rowland did exaggerate.....BRW's age. Why do Jarman and Norman get away with repeatedly lying about Williams being with them on the elevator ascent up until their appearances before the WC? How come they get a free pass?

Why do Jarman and Norman get away with repeatedly lying about Williams being with them on the elevator ascent up until their appearances before the WC?

I have never heard that Bonnie Ray Williams was also on the elevator at 12:27 with Jarman and Norman....Where did you get this idea??
Title: Re: There was No Roll Call at the TSBD !
Post by: Walt Cakebread on April 26, 2018, 01:15:44 PM
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Yes we do and further we know that BRW went down to the fifth floor because he heard "movement" coming from the floor below. The issue being was that Norman and Jarman didn't arrive to the 5th floor until at least 12.25 pm - a time that mirrored when Arnold no longer saw the Negro gentleman in the SE corner of the 6th floor.

(http://i66.tinypic.com/r7u1ol.jpg)

The HSCA did not call up BRW.  :-X

Remarkable.

(http://i66.tinypic.com/r7u1ol.jpg)

Thanks, Tony.......   The information you posted should wipe out the idea that Bonnie Ray Williams was on the elevator with Jarman and Norman....
Title: Re: There was No Roll Call at the TSBD !
Post by: Colin Crow on April 26, 2018, 02:13:01 PM
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Why do Jarman and Norman get away with repeatedly lying about Williams being with them on the elevator ascent up until their appearances before the WC?

I have never heard that Bonnie Ray Williams was also on the elevator at 12:27 with Jarman and Norman....Where did you get this idea??

Read the statements by Jarman and Norman prior to their WC testimonies.
Title: Re: There was No Roll Call at the TSBD !
Post by: Jack Nessan on April 26, 2018, 02:22:27 PM
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Who cares? Can you show that Arnold made it up or not?



Don't worry abou humiliating yourself. Go to any sporting goods store and tell them you would like to purchase a 30 odd six rifle and a box of 30 odd six ammunition.
Title: Re: There was No Roll Call at the TSBD !
Post by: Walt Cakebread on April 26, 2018, 02:23:05 PM
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What do you note Walt that is not true in this FBI report?

https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=10730&relPageId=15&search=norman]

Compare that to what he told the WC:

Mr. BALL - Were you with anybody when you were at the window? Did you talk to anybody?
Mr. JARMAN - No; I did not.
Mr. BALL - Were you with anybody when you were walking around finishing your sandwich?
Mr. JARMAN - No; I wasn't, I was trying to get through so I could get out on the street.
Mr. BALL - Did you see Lee Oswald?
Mr. JARMAN - No; I didn't.
Mr. BALL - After his arrest, he stated to a police officer that he had had lunch with you. Did you have lunch with him?
Mr. JARMAN - No, sir; I didn't.
Mr. BALL - When you finished your sandwich and your bottle of pop, what did you do?
Mr. JARMAN - I throwed the paper that I had the sandwich in in the box over close to the telephone and I took the pop bottle and put it in the case over by the Dr. Pepper machine.
Mr. BALL - And then what did you do?
Mr. JARMAN - Then I went out in front of the building.
Mr. BALL - With who?
Mr. JARMAN - Harold Norman, Bonnie Ray, and Danny Arce and myself.
Mr. BALL - You say Bonnie Ray Williams?
Mr. JARMAN - Bonnie Ray Williams.
Mr. BALL - Do you remember him going with you?
Mr. JARMAN - No; I am sorry. Excuse me, but it was Harold Norman and myself and Daniel Arce.

What do you note Walt that is not true in this FBI report?

https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=10730&relPageId=15&search=norman]

Tony, I don't believe the report is so much " untrue" but it is totally inaccurate..... which makes it untrue....

I believe that Norman and Jarman did eat lunch together in the Domino Room at about noon....but Williams did not go outside with Jarman and Norman....  Why Williams went up to the sixth floor??  I don't know....But, I suspect that he was being set up as an accomplice  to be found dead up there after the coup d e'tat.

Williams was a young naive kid who would have done what he was told to do by Roy Truly, or Bill Shelley....If one of them had told him that they had a task for him, and they wanted  to go up to the sixth floor and wait for them ....He would have complied without question......
Title: Re: There was No Roll Call at the TSBD !
Post by: Jack Nessan on April 26, 2018, 02:25:24 PM
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Rowland did exaggerate.....BRW's age. Why do Jarman and Norman get away with repeatedly lying about Williams being with them on the elevator ascent up until their appearances before the WC? How come they get a free pass?



It wasn't quite that benign. Rowland states he seen a person hanging out the window. How would he know how tall that person was how much he weighed. He also describes him as balding with gray hair and a wrinkled face. Quite a description about someone that earlier in his statement he wasn't sure of anything about the person including his race.


Title: Re: There was No Roll Call at the TSBD !
Post by: Jack Nessan on April 26, 2018, 02:39:57 PM
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You can go through any WC testimony and find errors and conflicting pieces of information. Why didn't the WC simply ask Arnold for clarification if they were unsure about something? He was a witness and not a suspect of any crime.

As a comparison.

Arent you the one claiming that every witness who heard three shots were in error? So is everyone now embellishing their statement? It was the WC who asked Rowland the questions not the other way around.

If you filter Rowland's testimony down to its fundamental core, without any embellishments, he saw two people on the 6th floor, one an armed white male and the other an unarmed Negro gentleman. We know there was an unarmed Negro gentleman on the 6th floor. That was FACT.

The WC was also aware of this fact but somehow were not able to see the connection. Sure, Rowland added way too much detail but the fundamentals were there. TWO people on the 6TH floor at the same time.


You are trying to make a silk purse out of a sows ear with Rowland. The only person who discredited Rowland's testimony is Arnold himself.  By the end of Rowlands testimony with the WC, Arnold had managed to destroy any credibility he had as a witness or even that he had seen a gunman on the 6th floor at all.
Unknown to Arnold the window starts 14 inches above the floor and the window completely open only measures 30 inches above the sill. Rowland describes seeing the gunman from just above his knees to several feet above his head. That is impossible in a 2 and 1/2 foot opening.
The open window Rowland supposedly seen the gunman is less than  4 feet high  from the floor with a two and 1/2 foot opening when the window is wide open. The window sill is one foot and four inches from the floor. It is the same window as the window in the SN.



Mr. SPECTER - You say you only saw a small portion of what?
Mr. ROWLAND - Of his pants from his waist down.
Mr. SPECTER - Which half of the window was open, the bottom half or the top half?
Mr. ROWLAND - It was the bottom half.
Mr. SPECTER - And how much, if any, of his body was obscured by the window frame from that point down to the floor?
Mr. ROWLAND - From where I was standing I could see from his head to about 6 inches below his waist, below his belt.
Mr. SPECTER - Could you see as far as his knees?
Mr. ROWLAND - No.



Mr. SPECTER - How much of the rifle was separated from your line of vision by the window?
Mr. ROWLAND - The entire rifle was in my view.
Mr. SPECTER - In the open part of the window?
Mr. ROWLAND - Yes.
Mr. SPECTER - And how much of his body, if any, was in the open view where there was no window between your eyes and the object of his body?
Mr. ROWLAND - Approximately two-thirds of his body just below his waist.
Mr. SPECTER - Up to what point?
Mr. ROWLAND - Mid point between the waist and the knees, this is again in my proportion to his height that I make that judgment.
Mr. SPECTER - So from the waist, some point between his knees and his waist, you started to see hi clear in the window?
Mr. ROWLAND - Yes.
Mr. SPECTER - And from that point how far up his body were you able to see without any obstruction of a window between you and him?
Mr. ROWLAND - To the top of his head. There was some space on top of that where I could see the wall behind him.
Mr. SPECTER - What is your best estimate of the space between the top of his head and the open window at the perspective you were observing?
Mr. ROWLAND - Two and a half, three feet, something on that--that is something very hard to ascertain. That would just be an estimation on my part.

A hunting rifle is at least 40+ inches long


Mr. SPECTER - How much, if any, or all of that rifle could you see?
Mr. ROWLAND - All of it.
Mr. SPECTER - You could see from the base of the stock down to the tip of the end of the rifle?
Mr. ROWLAND - Yes.
Mr. SPECTER - The barrel of the rifle?



Arnold's little story to his wife ended up taking on a life of its own and he was caught up in it. Time and time again Arnold shows he doesn't have the correct description of how the person should have appeared in the window no matter were the gunman was standing in the room. He is both describing the person as if he is standing next to the window and also far back into the room. At no point in time is Rowland properly describing what the gunman would have appeared to look like in the window with a 30 inch opening. That is what Specter and the WC discovered in the course of his interview. Rowland was repeatedly shown to be fabricating his story and had absolutely no credibility as a witness.


(http://www.wnd.com/files/2013/09/JFK-brennan-article-CE-1310-1311-1312-window.jpg)


(https://texashistory.unt.edu/ark:/67531/metapth49730/m1/1/high_res/)

Title: Re: There was No Roll Call at the TSBD !
Post by: Walt Cakebread on April 26, 2018, 02:43:44 PM
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Don't worry abou humiliating yourself. Go to any sporting goods store and tell them you would like to purchase a 30 odd six rifle and a box of 30 odd six ammunition.


99% of the proprietors of a gun shop / sporting goods store would probably say..... "Oh, believe you mean a thirty aught six rifle an ammunition"....

A rifle built to fire the .30-06 Springfield cartridge can be referred to by many different names.....Such rifles are commonly referred to as simply an "Aught Six"....   but some folks call their rifle a "thirty aught six"....or a "thirty odd six"....   The term "odd six" is generally used by folks who don't know that the word "aught" was once commonly used in place of the more modern word "zero"...   and they think that the word "odd" is the correct word......
Title: Re: There was No Roll Call at the TSBD !
Post by: Walt Cakebread on April 26, 2018, 02:58:07 PM
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Yes we do and further we know that BRW went down to the fifth floor because he heard "movement" coming from the floor below. The issue being was that Norman and Jarman didn't arrive to the 5th floor until at least 12.25 pm - a time that mirrored when Arnold no longer saw the Negro gentleman in the SE corner of the 6th floor.

(http://i66.tinypic.com/r7u1ol.jpg)

The HSCA did not call up BRW.  :-X

Remarkable.

 we know that BRW went down to the fifth floor because he heard "movement" coming from the floor below.

I don't believe that Williams heard " movement" or voices on the floor Below ....Because Williams was at the east end of the sixth floor and Norman and Jarman were opening windows at the west end of the fifth floor which was  about 90 feet away from Williams.   I do believe that Williams heard the elevator stop on the fifth floor and he may have thought that the person with the authority who had told him to go up to the sixth floor was on that elevator.....
Title: Re: There was No Roll Call at the TSBD !
Post by: Jack Nessan on April 26, 2018, 03:00:54 PM
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What exactly do you think his contribution is?

If you can show that LHO was the shooter then explain it.


Brennan stated he seen the gunman firing from the 6th floor of the TSBD and like so many other eyewitnesses stated that there was only two shots. An examination of CE 543 and the other shells and compared to the chamber of the rifle can identify why CE43  lacks the indentation on the side of the shell that is present on all the other 35 shells examined and noted by Tink Thompson in his book Six Seconds in Dallas. Included in the group is the unfired cartridge CE141 which also possess the same indentation .

LHO is the most likely candidate- his rifle and pistol matched to the shells and bullets, his fingerprints, photos holding the rifle and pistol, shoots Tippit, Shoots at Walker, and caught trying to hide and escape.
Title: Re: There was No Roll Call at the TSBD !
Post by: Walt Cakebread on April 26, 2018, 03:05:54 PM
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You are trying to make a silk purse out of a sows ear with Rowland. The only person who discredited Rowland's testimony is Arnold himself.  By the end of Rowlands testimony with the WC, Arnold had managed to destroy any credibility he had as a witness or even that he had seen a gunman on the 6th floor at all.
Unknown to Arnold the window starts 14 inches above the floor and the window completely open only measures 30 inches above the sill. Rowland describes seeing the gunman from just above his knees to several feet above his head. That is impossible in a 2 and 1/2 foot opening.
The open window Rowland supposedly seen the gunman is less than  4 feet high  from the floor with a two and 1/2 foot opening when the window is wide open. The window sill is one foot and four inches from the floor. It is the same window as the window in the SN.



Mr. SPECTER - You say you only saw a small portion of what?
Mr. ROWLAND - Of his pants from his waist down.
Mr. SPECTER - Which half of the window was open, the bottom half or the top half?
Mr. ROWLAND - It was the bottom half.
Mr. SPECTER - And how much, if any, of his body was obscured by the window frame from that point down to the floor?
Mr. ROWLAND - From where I was standing I could see from his head to about 6 inches below his waist, below his belt.
Mr. SPECTER - Could you see as far as his knees?
Mr. ROWLAND - No.



Mr. SPECTER - How much of the rifle was separated from your line of vision by the window?
Mr. ROWLAND - The entire rifle was in my view.
Mr. SPECTER - In the open part of the window?
Mr. ROWLAND - Yes.
Mr. SPECTER - And how much of his body, if any, was in the open view where there was no window between your eyes and the object of his body?
Mr. ROWLAND - Approximately two-thirds of his body just below his waist.
Mr. SPECTER - Up to what point?
Mr. ROWLAND - Mid point between the waist and the knees, this is again in my proportion to his height that I make that judgment.
Mr. SPECTER - So from the waist, some point between his knees and his waist, you started to see hi clear in the window?
Mr. ROWLAND - Yes.
Mr. SPECTER - And from that point how far up his body were you able to see without any obstruction of a window between you and him?
Mr. ROWLAND - To the top of his head. There was some space on top of that where I could see the wall behind him.
Mr. SPECTER - What is your best estimate of the space between the top of his head and the open window at the perspective you were observing?
Mr. ROWLAND - Two and a half, three feet, something on that--that is something very hard to ascertain. That would just be an estimation on my part.

A hunting rifle is at least 40+ inches long


Mr. SPECTER - How much, if any, or all of that rifle could you see?
Mr. ROWLAND - All of it.
Mr. SPECTER - You could see from the base of the stock down to the tip of the end of the rifle?
Mr. ROWLAND - Yes.
Mr. SPECTER - The barrel of the rifle?



Arnold's little story to his wife ended up taking on a life of its own and he was caught up in it. Time and time again Arnold shows he doesn't have the correct description of how the person should have appeared in the window no matter were the gunman was standing in the room. He is both describing the person as if he is standing next to the window and also far back into the room. At no point in time is Rowland properly describing what the gunman would have appeared to look like in the window with a 30 inch opening. That is what Specter and the WC discovered in the course of his interview. Rowland was repeatedly shown to be fabricating his story and had absolutely no credibility as a witness.


(http://www.wnd.com/files/2013/09/JFK-brennan-article-CE-1310-1311-1312-window.jpg)


(https://texashistory.unt.edu/ark:/67531/metapth49730/m1/1/high_res/)

By the end of Rowlands testimony with the WC, Arnold had managed to destroy any credibility he had as a witness or even that he had seen a gunman on the 6th floor at all.

No....That's what the slime Warren Commission lawyers had hoped they could do....ie; destroy Rowland's  account of seeing a man dressed in light colored clothing with a hunting ( aka sniper) rifle on the sixth floor just minutes prior to the coup d e'tat.....
Title: Re: There was No Roll Call at the TSBD !
Post by: Colin Crow on April 26, 2018, 03:14:12 PM
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It wasn't quite that benign. Rowland states he seen a person hanging out the window. How would he know how tall that person was how much he weighed. He also describes him as balding with gray hair and a wrinkled face. Quite a description about someone that earlier in his statement he wasn't sure of anything about the person including his race.

But we know williams was there, his lunch was noticed there by all police first on the scene. Rowland merely confirms what should have been apparent. Williams was in the SN until about 12.25 or later.
Title: Re: There was No Roll Call at the TSBD !
Post by: Jack Nessan on April 26, 2018, 03:15:08 PM
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You still don't get it do you Jack? ALL of that detail was irrelevant - there was ANOTHER human being (of the African American race) on the 6th floor with his head sticking out of the SE window where BRW had eaten his lunch. Forget the minutia - there was a real person in that location - a location we KNOW BRW was at.

I don't know if the WC was just plain stupid or playing obfuscation games (like you are doing) - but it would have been a simple matter to rule BRW in or out as the person Rowland saw.

Why didn't they do this?


You are trying to make a giant leap that Rowland was not fabricating the whole story. There was not a second person in the SN. Specter shows with his questions and Rowlands answers that he made it all up.

What they should have done is bitch slapped him and kicked out of the room for wasting their time with such obvious tripe.

Title: Re: There was No Roll Call at the TSBD !
Post by: Walt Cakebread on April 26, 2018, 03:16:28 PM
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What was interesting was that Jarman stated that ALL three of them ate together and ALL three of them went up to the 5th floor together. This did not happen. Why did Jarman do this?

Why did Jarman do this?

Who knows??....    Perhaps Jarman didn't realize the importance of being totally accurate about something so seemingly benign as eating lunch.....

Perhaps the three routinely ate together and he simply included Williams in recalling that lunch period......


Title: Re: There was No Roll Call at the TSBD !
Post by: Walt Cakebread on April 26, 2018, 03:22:11 PM
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Walt,

if BRW was in the SN (SE corner), then Norman and Jarman were DIRECTLY below him on the 5th floor.

Tony.... Jarman and Norman said that they spent a couple of minutes at the WEST end of the fifth floor before going to the east end....
Title: Re: There was No Roll Call at the TSBD !
Post by: Colin Crow on April 26, 2018, 03:23:41 PM
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Why did Jarman do this?

Who knows??....    Perhaps Jarman didn't realize the importance of being totally accurate about something so seemingly benign as eating lunch.....

Perhaps the three routinely ate together and he simply included Williams in recalling that lunch period......

Both Norman and Jarman claimed in their early December SS interviews that Williams went up,with them on the elevator. Jarman repeated this in early January to the FBI.
Title: Re: There was No Roll Call at the TSBD !
Post by: Walt Cakebread on April 26, 2018, 04:09:43 PM
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BRW found Norman and Jarman in the SE corner of the 5th floor prior to the assassination. This was directly below the SN above. After the shots were fired all three eventually ran to the SW end. They were in a prime position to hear or see anyone coming down form the 6th floor.

No one saw or heard a thing.

Norman, Jarman and Williams were under the SN when the shots were fired. BRW claimed he ate his lunch in front of a closed dirty window - hardly a prime position to view the parade. How then did his lunch appear originally at the SE corner?

(http://i65.tinypic.com/2806sqq.gif)

Do you believe that Williams would be unable to recall exactly where he was sitting and eating his lunch  "IF???" in fact he ate his lunch on the sixth floor?

There's no doubt in my mind that Williams KNEW precisely where he was at the time he ate his lunch....He was simply unsure of where the manipulators wanted him to say he ate his lunch......
Title: Re: There was No Roll Call at the TSBD !
Post by: Walt Cakebread on April 26, 2018, 05:14:54 PM
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But we know williams was there, his lunch was noticed there by all police first on the scene. Rowland merely confirms what should have been apparent. Williams was in the SN until about 12.25 or later.

we know williams was there,   (because) his lunch was noticed there by all police first on the scene.

Actually the remnants of someone's lunch does not prove that BRW was there ......However,  I do believe that Williams was on the sixth floor at the same time that a man who had a sniper rifle and was wearing light colored khaki clothing that made him appear to be a deputy sheriff ( Arnold Rowland assumed he was a "security guard)  was there. 

The photos of BRW in the immediate aftermath of the coup d e'tat show Williams as a very worried ( frightened?) young man.   Williams was simply clay in the hands of the authorities..... They could shape and mold him in any manner they felt was necessary.... 
Title: Re: There was No Roll Call at the TSBD !
Post by: John Iacoletti on April 26, 2018, 10:11:57 PM
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It wasn't quite that benign. Rowland states he seen a person hanging out the window. How would he know how tall that person was how much he weighed.

How would Brennan know?  That question isn't going away.
Title: Re: There was No Roll Call at the TSBD !
Post by: John Iacoletti on April 26, 2018, 10:20:13 PM
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LHO is the most likely candidate- his rifle and pistol

You haven't demonstrated that they were his rifle and pistol.  Or that that rifle and pistol killed anybody.

Quote
matched to the shells and bullets

What "bullets"?  You mean the near pristine bullet allegedly found on an unrelated stretcher at Parkland Hospital?

Quote
, his fingerprints,

His fingerprints where?  On book boxes where he worked getting books out of boxes?

Quote
photos holding the rifle and pistol,

You haven't demonstrated what rifle and pistol appear in the photos.

Quote
shoots Tippit,

You haven't demonstrated that he shot Tippit.

Quote
Shoots at Walker,

You haven't demonstrated that he shot at Walker.

Quote
and caught trying to hide and escape.

You haven't demonstrated that he was trying to hide and escape.

Care to try again?
Title: Re: There was No Roll Call at the TSBD !
Post by: Walt Cakebread on April 26, 2018, 11:34:30 PM
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You haven't demonstrated that they were his rifle and pistol.  Or that that rifle and pistol killed anybody.

What "bullets"?  You mean the near pristine bullet allegedly found on an unrelated stretcher at Parkland Hospital?

His fingerprints where?  On book boxes where he worked getting books out of boxes?

You haven't demonstrated what rifle and pistol appear in the photos.

You haven't demonstrated that he shot Tippit.

You haven't demonstrated that he shot at Walker.

You haven't demonstrated that he was trying to hide and escape.

Care to try again?


You haven't demonstrated what rifle and pistol appear in the photos.

It would be a great leap forward if people would stop using the plural when referring to a BY photo....Because clearly as least ONE photo is the photo that Marina was familiar with, and the print that Lee Oswald autographed for George De Morhenschildt.....That photo is CE 133A.   

And the revolver on Lee's hip in that "carnival prop" photo , does NOT appear to be a Smith and Wesson ......The butt of the revolver looks more like a Colt....
Title: Re: There was No Roll Call at the TSBD !
Post by: Walt Cakebread on April 27, 2018, 12:12:28 AM
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Walt,

There is no doubt that BRW knew exactly where he had eaten his lunch. Who was going to question his "recollection"?

BRW was no fool either and he would of had an "interesting" time trying to explain to the DP what he was doing in the SE corner some 5 minutes prior to the shots being fired without hearing or seeing anyone else on the 6th floor.

Better to tow the line than being potentially labeled as a conspirator. Could you imagine the "fallout"?

Tony, I doubt that the bonnie lad was there on the sixth floor of his own volition ....  Someone sent him there....and I strongly suspect that he would have been killed and an accomplice of the arch villain if Lee Oswald hadn't inadvertently tossed a monkey's wrench into the machinery of the coup d e'tat   If Lee had been there on the sixth floor both he and BRW  would have been "caught in the act" and been killed.... Case closed.     
Title: Re: There was No Roll Call at the TSBD !
Post by: Jack Nessan on April 27, 2018, 01:48:11 PM
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You haven't demonstrated that they were his rifle and pistol.  Or that that rifle and pistol killed anybody.

What "bullets"?  You mean the near pristine bullet allegedly found on an unrelated stretcher at Parkland Hospital?

His fingerprints where?  On book boxes where he worked getting books out of boxes?

You haven't demonstrated what rifle and pistol appear in the photos.

You haven't demonstrated that he shot Tippit.

You haven't demonstrated that he shot at Walker.

You haven't demonstrated that he was trying to hide and escape.

Care to try again?



The evidence was not presented based upon your satisfaction, approval, and/ or agreement. It is your turn, now it is time to show the evidence that exhonerates LHO and explains who was really responsible for the assassination. You have given a constant stream of posts as to why a piece evidence is not the answer now is the time to be either a contender or a pretender. The stage is all yours. If there was evidence of another person present it.
Title: Re: There was No Roll Call at the TSBD !
Post by: Ray Mitcham on April 27, 2018, 02:03:41 PM
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The window in the SW Corner wide open is 2 and 1/2 feet tall and starts 14 inches above the floor. You obviously understand Rowland's description of the gunman in the window is fabricated. You presented Hess's freakishly small, 3 feet tall people animation as proof and completely ignored the real photos of BRW, Norman, Jarmin, and the agents measuring the window.  Actual people standing by the window prove how badly distorted was his description of the gunman in the window.



Rowland said that the man he saw was standing back from the window. not close to it. So Hess's animation is quite acceptable.

"We looked and at that time I noticed on the sixth floor of the building that there was a man back from the window, not hanging out the window."
Title: Re: There was No Roll Call at the TSBD !
Post by: Walt Cakebread on April 27, 2018, 08:23:53 PM
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Rowland said that the man he saw was standing back from the window. not close to it. So Hess's animation is quite acceptable.

"We looked and at that time I noticed on the sixth floor of the building that there was a man back from the window, not hanging out the window."

Rowland saw the man holding a sniper rifle ( A high power hunting rifle with a large scope) .....So (because of the angle from Rowland up to the window) the man could no have been very far back from the window.....
Title: Re: There was No Roll Call at the TSBD !
Post by: John Iacoletti on April 27, 2018, 10:11:14 PM
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The evidence was not presented based upon your satisfaction, approval, and/ or agreement.

You didn't present any evidence at all -- just several unsupported claims.

Quote
It is your turn, now it is time to show the evidence that exhonerates LHO and explains who was really responsible for the assassination. You have given a constant stream of posts as to why a piece evidence is not the answer now is the time to be either a contender or a pretender. The stage is all yours. If there was evidence of another person present it.

Yet another "Oswald did it" devotee who doesn't understand burden of proof.  I never claimed that Oswald was innocent or that I knew who was really responsible for the assassination.  You, on the other hand, claimed that "LHO is the most likely candidate" and tried to justify that with statements that can't even withstand the slightest amount of scrutiny.

"His fingerprints".  How compelling.

Then you try to smear Arnold Rowland and completely ignore that Howard Brennan did all the same things you criticize Rowland for and more.
Title: Re: There was No Roll Call at the TSBD !
Post by: John Iacoletti on April 27, 2018, 10:24:52 PM
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This whole train of thought is completely unbelievable. BRW supposedly freely interacts with an unknown assassin and wanders around the 6th floor eating chicken and drinking pop. He is not killed but instead allowed to leave and join his friends a floor below where he watches the motorcade knowing full well that the person in the SN is going to shoot JFK.

Must you misrepresent everything?  Who ever said that BRW freely interacted with an unknown assassin and wandered around the 6th floor eating chicken and drinking pop?  All he said was that BRW was known to be on the sixth floor by a window eating his lunch when Arnold Rowland saw a negro in the window.  Why the hell would Rowland make something like that up?

Quote
This can't possibly be even remotely a possible scenario. The only way BRW leaves the 6th floor alive is if the assassin does not feel BRW knows he is there.

You're forgetting that your assassin only had the foresight to bring 4 bullets.  He's going to waste one on BRW?
Title: Re: There was No Roll Call at the TSBD !
Post by: Jack Nessan on April 28, 2018, 02:37:24 AM
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You didn't present any evidence at all -- just several unsupported claims.

Yet another "Oswald did it" devotee who doesn't understand burden of proof.  I never claimed that Oswald was innocent or that I knew who was really responsible for the assassination.  You, on the other hand, claimed that "LHO is the most likely candidate" and tried to justify that with statements that can't even withstand the slightest amount of scrutiny.

"His fingerprints".  How compelling.

Then you try to smear Arnold Rowland and completely ignore that Howard Brennan did all the same things you criticize Rowland for and more.


Ok. No answer of any kind and same ole BS, Pretender it is.
Title: Re: There was No Roll Call at the TSBD !
Post by: Jack Nessan on April 28, 2018, 02:08:19 PM
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Mr. BELIN. DO you know whether or not he told them, the police officers, that there was any other person on the sixth floor that he saw?
Mrs. ROWLAND. He never said that there was another person on the sixth floor, in my presence, that I can remember.
Mr. BELIN. Were you present when he was with the police officers?
Mrs. ROWLAND. At times.

Talk about sinking herself.

Tony, this Jack N. is a total waste of time.

Read more Tom and post less

Mr. BELIN. Were you personally with him throughout the time that he was
with the police officers?
Mrs. ROWLAND. Yes.
Title: Re: There was No Roll Call at the TSBD !
Post by: John Iacoletti on April 28, 2018, 04:08:35 PM
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Ok. No answer of any kind and same ole BS, Pretender it is.

No, you utterly failed to make your case, so all you can do is desperately try to shift the burden of proof.  Typical.
Title: Re: There was No Roll Call at the TSBD !
Post by: John Iacoletti on April 28, 2018, 04:16:36 PM
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Not only does Barbara say Arnold never said he seen someone on the 6th floor, She says she is sure there wasn't any body on the sixth floor because she could not see them. Barbara ended any speculation there was an additional person in the SN.

LOL.  You apparently missed the part about her being nearsighted -- even though you quoted it.

Carolyn Walther, Ruby Henderson, Norman Similas, and Johnny Powell all said they saw two men there.  Were they all in cahoots together with Rowland to make up a story?  For what purpose?  For gawdsakes, we KNOW that BRW was up there until 12:25.
Title: Re: There was No Roll Call at the TSBD !
Post by: Bill Chapman on April 28, 2018, 06:27:35 PM
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How would Brennan know?  That question isn't going away.

Oswald had the thick neck of a fullback, potentially adding pounds in an observer's 'minds eye' when the lower half of the body is not visible.
Title: Re: There was No Roll Call at the TSBD !
Post by: Walt Cakebread on April 28, 2018, 08:04:53 PM
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Oswald had the thick neck of a fullback, potentially adding pounds in an observer's 'minds eye' when the lower half of the body is not visible.

Oswald had the thick neck of a fullback,

Why would you make such a stupid proclamation?    There are dozens of photos that show that Lee was a pencil neck...
Title: Re: There was No Roll Call at the TSBD !
Post by: Jack Nessan on April 29, 2018, 12:39:38 PM
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LOL.  You apparently missed the part about her being nearsighted -- even though you quoted it.

Carolyn Walther, Ruby Henderson, Norman Similas, and Johnny Powell all said they saw two men there.  Were they all in cahoots together with Rowland to make up a story?  For what purpose?  For gawdsakes, we KNOW that BRW was up there until 12:25.


What burden of proof? You were simply asked if not LHO then who, or any evidence there even was somebody else. If you ae unable to provide an answer of any kind simply state you don't know what happened you just know what did not happen.

Near sighted meant the TSBD was close and she could see things up close.

Mr. BELIN. Did he say whether or not there were any other people on that same floor looking out the windows?
Mrs. ROWLAND. I am not certain whether he said or not. But I know there weren't any other people on that floor looking out the windows that could be seen from the outside.
Mr. BELIN. How do you know that
Mrs. ROWLAND. I mean I know they couldn't be seen from the outside, because I couldn't see them. I am nearsighted.




Carolyn Walther, Ruby Henderson, Norman Similas, and Johnny Powell all said they saw two men there.

Seriously? Quite a group. Don't just throw out their names like it is meaningful. How about quote them and relate their statements and the dates of the statements and people who either corroborate the statement or say it never happened like Springer or were you hoping I would do that for you.
Title: Re: There was No Roll Call at the TSBD !
Post by: Bill Chapman on April 29, 2018, 02:35:08 PM
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Oswald had the thick neck of a fullback,

Why would you make such a stupid proclamation?    There are dozens of photos that show that Lee was a pencil neck...

On the contrary, there are many images clearly showing Oswald's thick neck.

Eraserhead
Title: Re: There was No Roll Call at the TSBD !
Post by: Gary Craig on April 29, 2018, 03:09:49 PM
(http://i959.photobucket.com/albums/ae75/garcra/notatrollcall8.jpg)
(http://i959.photobucket.com/albums/ae75/garcra/notatrollcall7.jpg)
(http://i959.photobucket.com/albums/ae75/garcra/notatrollcall6.jpg)
(http://i959.photobucket.com/albums/ae75/garcra/notatrollcall5.jpg)
Title: Re: There was No Roll Call at the TSBD !
Post by: Gary Craig on April 29, 2018, 03:10:42 PM
(http://i959.photobucket.com/albums/ae75/garcra/notatrollcall4.jpg)
(http://i959.photobucket.com/albums/ae75/garcra/notatrollcall3.jpg)
(http://i959.photobucket.com/albums/ae75/garcra/notatrollcall2.jpg)
(http://i959.photobucket.com/albums/ae75/garcra/notatrollcall1.jpg)
Title: Re: There was No Roll Call at the TSBD !
Post by: John Iacoletti on April 30, 2018, 08:39:09 PM
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Oswald had the thick neck of a fullback, potentially adding pounds in an observer's 'minds eye' when the lower half of the body is not visible.

That's one thick neck.  LOL

(https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcRrOlit-gmQ5i-sYBZmZGRnzuLuq30HtgnL_ij61nmM89zEQBqh)

Besides, didn't Brennan claim to see the guy from his belt up?
Title: Re: There was No Roll Call at the TSBD !
Post by: John Iacoletti on April 30, 2018, 08:45:06 PM
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What burden of proof? You were simply asked if not LHO then who, or any evidence there even was somebody else. If you ae unable to provide an answer of any kind simply state you don't know what happened you just know what did not happen.

I don't know what happened.  Now let's get back to your bogus justification for Oswald being "the most likely candidate".

Quote
Near sighted meant the TSBD was close and she could see things up close.

You don't know where the Rowlands were standing, do you?

Quote
Seriously? Quite a group. Don't just throw out their names like it is meaningful. How about quote them and relate their statements and the dates of the statements and people who either corroborate the statement or say it never happened like Springer or were you hoping I would do that for you.

I'm not hoping for anything from you.  You obviously don't know the evidence.
Title: Re: There was No Roll Call at the TSBD !
Post by: Joe Elliott on May 01, 2018, 03:07:32 AM

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Only a Joe Idiott would believe in the WC tale about Oswald reported missing.


Wow. I have run into someone clever enough to come up with that pun since the third grade. Some CTers are not as clever as they imagine themselves to be.



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Further to the hilarious explanation of Oswald missing...

Representative FORD. When you noticed the police assembling the employees after the assassination, what prompted you to think that Oswald was not among them?
Mr. TRULY. I have asked myself that many times. I cannot give an answer. Unless it was the fact that I knew he was on the second floor, I had seen him 10 or 15 minutes, or whatever it was, before that. That might have brought that boy's name to my mind--because I was looking over there and he was the only one I missed at that time that I could think of. Subconsciously it might have been because I saw him on the second floor and I knew he was in the building.





Combine this with:

representative FORD. Had there been any traits that you had noticed from the time of his employment that might have made you think then that there was a connection between the shooting and Oswald?
Mr. TRULY. Not at all. In fact, I was fooled so completely by the sound of--the direction of the shot, that I did not believe still did not believe maybe I could not force myself to believe, that the shots came from that building until I learned that they found the gun and the shells there. So I had no feeling whatever that they did come from there.


Now, since he did not learn of any gun found until he talked to Fritz (Oswald missing) his subconscious mind didn't really have anything to work with to motivate Truly to report Oswald, did it?
 



From Mr. Truly?s statement to the Warren Commission taken down about six months after the assassination, we learn that Mr. Truly first started to suspect his employees when he heard that a rifle was found in the building. However, from the statement he gave the police the next day:

https://texashistory.unt.edu/ark:/67531/metapth340660/m1/1/

we learn he actually started to wonder if any of his employees could have been the assassin when he heard that an officer state that the shot came from one of the windows of his building. So the order events are:

1.   The assassination took place.
2.   Mr. Truly guided Officer Baker though the building, where Officer Baker drew a gun on Oswald on the second floor but Mr. Truly said he was an employee.
3.   Mr. Truly heard that a shot was fired from his building.
4.   Mr. Truly started to wonder if any of his employees could have been the assassin.
5.   Mr. Truly asked other employees if they have seen Oswald.
6.   Mr. Truly alerts the police that one of his employee?s was in the building at the time of the shooting, but now appears to be missing.
7.   Mr. Truly head that a rifle was found in the building on the sixth floor.

So, this is not a case of Mr. Truly first drawing the police?s attention to Oswald, only to learn later that it appears likely that the shots were fired from his building. Instead, it happened in the reverse order.

People?s memories are more reliable shortly after an event, not six months later. Mr. Truly heard two pieces of bad news:

1.   Some witnesses thought the shots came from his building.
2.   A rifle was found in the building.

The second piece of information would be the more jarring. It?s the moment that would be more likely to stick in Mr. Truly?s head months later. So, the next day, Mr. Truly remembered he started to suspect Oswald right after he heard the shots may have been fired from his building. But six months later, he remembered hearing about the rifle being found causing him to suspect Oswald. This later memory is false.

Of course, CTers know this. They know a better case for ?How could Mr. Truly suspect Oswald? if they go with Mr. Truly?s memory from six months later than the day after. So, they ignore what he said the day after, don?t inform the reader, and just build their case on what he said six months later.



What other candidate was:

1.   My himself during the shooting.
2.   Inside the building, during the shooting.
3.   Left the building and Dealey Plaza right after the shooting.

Only Oswald fits this, as far as Mr. Truly knew. And indeed, as far as anyone knows, I believe.



Mr. Truly had many good reasons to first think of Oswald when he heard that shots were fired from his building, according to some witnesses:

1.   An officer had drawn a gun on Oswald. He remembers seeing that. It would be natural to first thing ?Who could be a murderer? and then think of Oswald. One sees policemen pointing guns at killers all the time on TV.

2.   The same reason Officer Baker suspected Oswald might occur to Mr. Truly. An assassin probably would not hang around the top floors from where he fired the shots. He would probably try to get away immediately. And near the second-floor stairs is a likely location Officer Baker and Mr. Truly would encounter such an assassin.

3.   Of all his employees, Oswald may have been the one Mr. Truly knew the least about. Last hired, first suspected.

4.   And the fear that if it was Oswald, the police might also suspect Mr. Truly. For guiding the officer through the building, suggesting the take the elevator which almost caused them to miss seeing Oswald, for being conveniently on hand to tell the officer that Oswald worked for him. Mr. Truly wouldn?t have to tell a lie to lead the police away from suspecting Oswald. Sometimes the truth can be used.
Title: Re: There was No Roll Call at the TSBD !
Post by: Joe Elliott on May 01, 2018, 12:54:21 PM
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Unfortunately your analysis is sub third grade, but since you're now a fan of next day affidavits let's see your deep analysis of why there is nothing about a lunchroom encounter in Baker's first day affidavit. Instead that happened on the 3rd or 4th floor and the guy out-weighted Oswald and wore a jacket.



As is typical of eyewitness testimonies, we have a discrepancy. Mr. Truly said the encounter took place on the second floor just outside the lunch room. Officer Baker said the encounter took place on the third or fourth floor.

Mr. Truly?s memory on this question is probably correct for several reasons.

1.   Mr. Truly remembers the encounter taking place just outside a lunchroom. There is a lunchroom on the second floor but not on the third or fourth floor.

2.   Mr. Truly knew the building. Officer Baker did not. Mr. Truly would know what floor they were on. Officer Baker would not, unless he was keeping a careful count of the number of floors he had gone up as he went. There was no reason for him to do so.

3.   Officer Baker?s own statement indicates his uncertainty. He didn?t say it happened on the third floor. He didn?t say it happened on the fourth floor. He said it happened on either the third or fourth floor. He wasn?t certain.

Likely, all Officer Baker remembered is that he and Mr. Truly went up some stairs, briefly encountered Oswald, then continued up the stairs. Only about a half hour or more later did he realize that this was an important encounter. It?s likely he had forgotten how many flights of stairs he had gone up when he encountered Oswald.



When CTers encounter a witness discrepancy, they immediately conclude, ?Aha, someone must be lying?. And ignore the obvious alternate explanation, ?Someone must be mistaken".
Title: Re: There was No Roll Call at the TSBD !
Post by: Gary Craig on May 01, 2018, 02:58:02 PM
on 11/22/63
(http://i959.photobucket.com/albums/ae75/garcra/baker4b.jpg)
a month later???
(http://i959.photobucket.com/albums/ae75/garcra/baker20fritz20report.jpg)

(http://i959.photobucket.com/albums/ae75/garcra/reid2.jpg)
Title: Re: There was No Roll Call at the TSBD !
Post by: John Iacoletti on May 01, 2018, 07:57:24 PM
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What other candidate was:

1.   My himself during the shooting.
2.   Inside the building, during the shooting.
3.   Left the building and Dealey Plaza right after the shooting.

Only Oswald fits this, as far as Mr. Truly knew.

How the hell would Truly have known where Oswald was during the shooting or that he was by himself?
Title: Re: There was No Roll Call at the TSBD !
Post by: Joe Elliott on May 02, 2018, 02:43:17 AM

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What other candidate was:

1.   My himself during the shooting.
2.   Inside the building, during the shooting.
3.   Left the building and Dealey Plaza right after the shooting.

Only Oswald fits this, as far as Mr. Truly knew. And indeed, as far as anyone knows, I believe.

 



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How the hell would Truly have known where Oswald was during the shooting or that he was by himself?


Initially, Mr. Truly could not tell for certain. But Oswald was by himself about 75 to 90 seconds after the assassination, so there would be a good chance he was by himself during the assassination.

When Mr. Truly?s suspicions first formed, he didn?t immediately go to the police. He made discrete inquiries with his employees about Oswald?s whereabouts. Likely one of them would have volunteered that while they didn?t know where Oswald was now, they knew where he was during the shooting, if any of them knew. I doubt there was an employee who didn?t guess why Mr. Truly wanted to see him. It probably wouldn?t be to start work on another book order.

By the time Mr. Truly took his suspicions to the police, he could be reasonably be certain Oswald was no longer in the building and pretty sure that he was by himself during the shooting.



But, my question stands. Which other employee was:

1.   My himself during the shooting.
2.   Inside the building, during the shooting.
3.   Left the building and Dealey Plaza right after the shooting.




Is there anyone else who definitely fits this?
Title: Re: There was No Roll Call at the TSBD !
Post by: Joe Elliott on May 02, 2018, 05:49:34 AM

Another point to consider.

Mr. Frazier heard that shots had been fired from the building. He heard a rifle had been found in the building. He heard that Oswald had disappeared from the scene and the police were looking for him.

Did Mr. Frazier immediately go to the police and tell them about the long package Oswald brought to work with him that morning?

No. He did not.

What were the consequences of not doing so?

A grilling for several hours while the police pressured him into not confessing.



Mr. Truly was an older and likely wiser man. Unlike Frazier, as soon as Oswald entered his mind as a possible suspect, he started acting. He knew it would be unfortunate to help someone, however innocently, if that person was the assassin. If he tells the police nothing, and they find out that Oswald is the main suspect, the police are going to start wondering:

** How is it Mr. Truly just happened to be on hand to ?guide? Officer Baker.

** Why did Mr. Truly ?guide? Officer Baker to an elevator that was not working. Doesn?t he know which elevators are working and wouldn?t he be able to immediately tell if the elevators were locked up?

** Why didn?t Mr. Truly first lead Officer Baker up the stairs where they would have immediately found Oswald, possibly coming down the stairs. Was Mr. Truly trying to delay Officer Baker long enough for Oswald to reach the second floor and get to the other stairs?

** Why didn?t Mr. Truly make immediate inquires into which employees were there at the time of the shooting but had now disappeared?

If Mr. Truly did nothing, he might have ended up being grilled for hours by the police.
Title: Re: There was No Roll Call at the TSBD !
Post by: Joe Elliott on May 02, 2018, 09:16:28 AM

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More of classic Elliott obfuscation piling up trying to hide what is actually known:




FACT: By Truly's own admission to the WC he can not rationalize why Oswald should be considered "missing" at the time given by Truly.

FACT: Truly does not ask Oswald's coworkers if they have seen him.

Affidavit by Mr. Truly on November 23, 1965:

?I overhead someone say that the shot came from the window of our building.?
. . .
?Some fifteen minutes later I was checking our employees and did not find Lee. I asked Mr. Shelly if he had seen Lee. He said no. I then contacted Chief Lumpkin and told him Lee was missing.?




FACT: Time of Oswald reported missing according to Truly is off by 45 minutes.

People?s memory of the exact time of events is often off. Particularly memories that are months old. Are we to expect everyone to write down the exact time and the thought every time a new thought occurs to them? And the exact time of each action, of each inquiry? Such errors are to be expected of ordinary witnesses. The absence of these sorts of errors would be a better indicator of conspirators carefully following a script.



FACT: No explanation as to why an APB was out on Givens although Truly saw him leave prior to shots fired.

Anyone seen leaving BEFORE the shots should be considered a suspect ahead of Oswald? Of having some connection to the rifle that was found? Explain.



FACT: Lumpkin and Aiken not called by the WC to investigate difference in timeline (Truly vs Fritz).

FACT: Shelley not asked any questions why he starts looking for Oswald as per affidavit.

Making a mountain out of a molehill. The Warren Commission did not have an infinite amount of time and some things are bound to fall through the cracks. CTers, like Mark Lane, had lots of time to question those people on these points. Why didn?t they, if this was just an important matter?  This question Sorensen is certain to dodge.



FACT: Sorensen?s ?Facts? are either irrelevant, not important or not facts at all.
Title: Re: There was No Roll Call at the TSBD !
Post by: John Iacoletti on May 02, 2018, 08:26:49 PM
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Initially, Mr. Truly could not tell for certain. But Oswald was by himself about 75 to 90 seconds after the assassination, so there would be a good chance he was by himself during the assassination.

When Mr. Truly?s suspicions first formed, he didn?t immediately go to the police. He made discrete inquiries with his employees about Oswald?s whereabouts. Likely one of them would have volunteered that while they didn?t know where Oswald was now, they knew where he was during the shooting, if any of them knew. I doubt there was an employee who didn?t guess why Mr. Truly wanted to see him. It probably wouldn?t be to start work on another book order.

By the time Mr. Truly took his suspicions to the police, he could be reasonably be certain Oswald was no longer in the building and pretty sure that he was by himself during the shooting.



But, my question stands. Which other employee was:

1.   My himself during the shooting.
2.   Inside the building, during the shooting.
3.   Left the building and Dealey Plaza right after the shooting.




Is there anyone else who definitely fits this?

So much for your claim that "Only Oswald fits this, as far as Mr. Truly knew"

But how do you even know now that 1 and 2 are true?  You don't -- you're just assuming them.
Title: Re: There was No Roll Call at the TSBD !
Post by: John Iacoletti on May 02, 2018, 08:29:12 PM
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Did Mr. Truly find Mr. Dougherty at a location that suggested he was trying to leave the building right after the last shot?

???

Are you suggesting that Mr. Truly found Oswald at a location that suggested he was trying to leave the building?  How do you figure?
Title: Re: There was No Roll Call at the TSBD !
Post by: John Iacoletti on May 02, 2018, 08:36:20 PM
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Mr. Frazier heard that shots had been fired from the building. He heard a rifle had been found in the building. He heard that Oswald had disappeared from the scene and the police were looking for him.

Where did you get the idea that Frazier heard any of these things before he left?
Title: Re: There was No Roll Call at the TSBD !
Post by: Joe Elliott on May 03, 2018, 03:21:33 AM

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???

Are you suggesting that Mr. Truly found Oswald at a location that suggested he was trying to leave the building?  How do you figure?

If Officer Baker and Mr. Truly passed by an assassin who murdered the President and immediately tried to leave the building, they would have met such a person near the stairs and near the second floor. Perhaps on the first floor. Perhaps on the third. But near there.

The only person Officer Baker and Mr. Truly near this location just happened to be Oswald.




There is no other location. An assassin could come down the elevator, but they would know it was operating. There is only one set of stairs from the upper floor down to the second floor. Mr. Truly knew the building and would know all of that. Only by jumping out a window could an assassin attempting to flee the building immediately and not cross paths with Officer Baker and Mr. Truly.
Title: Re: There was No Roll Call at the TSBD !
Post by: Joe Elliott on May 03, 2018, 03:23:07 AM

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Where did you get the idea that Frazier heard any of these things before he left?


What else were the employees talking about just before heading down to the police station. The weather for the weekend?
Title: Re: There was No Roll Call at the TSBD !
Post by: John Iacoletti on May 03, 2018, 11:22:41 PM
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If Officer Baker and Mr. Truly passed by an assassin who murdered the President and immediately tried to leave the building, they would have met such a person near the stairs and near the second floor. Perhaps on the first floor. Perhaps on the third. But near there.

The only person Officer Baker and Mr. Truly near this location just happened to be Oswald.

Bull.  What about Eddie Piper?
Title: Re: There was No Roll Call at the TSBD !
Post by: John Iacoletti on May 03, 2018, 11:24:48 PM
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What else were the employees talking about just before heading down to the police station. The weather for the weekend?

That doesn't answer my question.  Where did you get the idea that Frazier heard that shots had been fired from the building, heard a rifle had been found in the building, and heard that Oswald had disappeared from the scene and the police were looking for him, BEFORE he left?
Title: Re: There was No Roll Call at the TSBD !
Post by: John Iacoletti on May 03, 2018, 11:43:35 PM
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Only Oswald left the building and left the plaza immediately. No one can give me the name of anyone else who definitely did so as well.

Bull again.  Rob has posted these names several times:

Gloria Jean Holt
Sharon Simmons Nelson
Bonnie Richey
Carolyn Arnold
Mrs. Donald Baker
Judy Marie Johnson
Ms. Stella Mae Jacob
Charles Givens
Virginia H. Barnum
Vida Lee Whatley
Title: Re: There was No Roll Call at the TSBD !
Post by: Colin Crow on May 04, 2018, 02:41:46 AM
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If Officer Baker and Mr. Truly passed by an assassin who murdered the President and immediately tried to leave the building, they would have met such a person near the stairs and near the second floor. Perhaps on the first floor. Perhaps on the third. But near there.

The only person Officer Baker and Mr. Truly near this location just happened to be Oswald.


SENATOR COOPER - Did you see anyone else while you were in the building, other than this man you have identified later as Oswald, and Mr. Truly?
 Mr. BAKER - On the first floor there were two men. As we came through the main doorway to the elevators, I remember as we tried to get on the elevators I remember two men, one was sitting on this side and another one between 20 or 30 feet away from us looking at us.
 Mr. DULLES - Were they white men?
 Mr. BAKER - Yes, sir.
Title: Re: There was No Roll Call at the TSBD !
Post by: Mike Orr on May 05, 2018, 05:16:00 AM
Didn't they also say that everyone was fingerprinted who worked there and there prints were checked against all prints on the sixth floor . We know there were no prints on the Mauser or the ( carcano )until the inked up LHO at the morgue.  Apparently not everyone was fingerprinted because several of the employees were not around or in the bldg. when No Roll Call wasn't performed.