JFK Assassination Forum
JFK Assassination Discussion & Debate => JFK Assassination Discussion & Debate => Topic started by: Bruce Backlund on April 15, 2018, 10:32:26 PM
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There have been questions over the years whether or not Dan Rather was waiting on the other side of the triple underpass in Dallas for a film pickup tossed from JFK's motorcade in Dallas on Nov. 22, 1963. If he indeed was, would he be standing on the left side of this photo?
(http://i67.tinypic.com/20toz7q.jpg)
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Hi Bruce,
Welcome to the Forum.
I used to enjoy your matches with WWF in the 80's. I'm not surprised that a "scientific" wrestler is also an intellectual.
Are you still in good shape? Still have the championship belt on display in your house?
Regards,
Ross
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Hi Bruce,
Welcome to the Forum.
I used to enjoy your matches with WWF in the 80's. I'm not surprised that a "scientific" wrestler is also an intellectual.
Are you still in good shape? Still have the championship belt on display in your house?
Regards,
Ross
Just what we need. Another former professional wrestler involved in the JFK assassination controversy.
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Just what we need. Another former professional wrestler involved in the JFK assassination controversy.
That's "Governor Ventura" to you.
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That's "Governor Ventura" to you.
Of Minnesota. Full of intellectuals. Okay, then.
Ex- Navy Seal; at least according to him. Found to be not quite true.
Ironically, made the 3 shots in 8.4 seconds while trying for 6
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Of Minnesota. Full of intellectuals. Okay, then.
Condescending to an entire state now. Nice going, Bill.
Ex- Navy Seal; at least according to him. Found to be not quite true.
https://sofrep.com/36086/truth-jesse-venturas-navy-seal-status (https://sofrep.com/36086/truth-jesse-venturas-navy-seal-status)
Ironically, made the 3 shots in 8.4 seconds while trying for 6
Why is that ironic?
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Of Minnesota. Full of intellectuals. Okay, then.
Ex- Navy Seal; at least according to him. Found to be not quite true.
Ironically, made the 3 shots in 8.4 seconds while trying for 6
And what exactly did you do for your country?
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Condescending to an entire state now. Nice going, Bill.
https://sofrep.com/36086/truth-jesse-venturas-navy-seal-status (https://sofrep.com/36086/truth-jesse-venturas-navy-seal-status)
Why is that ironic?
Jesse Ventura is a known JFK conspiracy theorist. Virtually all theories say that Oswald is innocent... and never fired the shots that killed JFK. The ballistic evidence is ignored and instead the "time constraint" defense is invoked. This is subjective because the time for the shooting sequence is not known with absolute certainty. The shortest possible time frame is selected for tests. This was demonstrated in the 1967 CBS tests in Maryland.
When a person "tries" to achieve something in a particular time span--to prove it cannot be done--there's always the possibility that:
(a.) He (or she) is not trying hard enough "to" achieve the task.
(b.) He (or she) is actually trying "not to" achieve the task.
Jesse Ventura had trouble working the bolt-action of the rifle and (supposedly) gave up in disgust. It looked like a stunt.
Irony? Jesse Ventura was a professional wrestler. Persuasive "deception" is the prime skill of a "wrassler". The conclusion to most matches could be described as stunts.
Incredible coincidence? Ventura wrestled Backlund!!!
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Jesse Ventura is a known JFK conspiracy theorist. Virtually all theories say that Oswald is innocent... and never fired the shots that killed JFK. The ballistic evidence is ignored and instead the "time constraint" defense is invoked. This is subjective because the time for the shooting sequence is not known with absolute certainty. The shortest possible time frame is selected for tests. This was demonstrated in the 1967 CBS tests in Maryland.
When a person "tries" to achieve something in a particular time span--to prove it cannot be done--there's always the possibility that:
(a.) He (or she) is not trying hard enough "to" achieve the task.
(b.) He (or she) is actually trying "not to" achieve the task.
Jesse Ventura had trouble working the bolt-action of the rifle and (supposedly) gave up in disgust. It looked like a stunt.
Irony? Jesse Ventura was a professional wrestler. Persuasive "deception" is the prime skill of a "wrassler". The conclusion to most matches could be described as stunts.
Incredible coincidence? Ventura wrestled Backlund!!!
The ballistic evidence is ignored
What exactly is the ballistic evidence?
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The CBS demonstration only showed one person able to accomplish the feat so not much of confirmation Yes you do not want people with a bias if you can avoid it, but surely you are not going to suggest the CBS folks weren't trying It seems the LN's only like experiments with melons, questionable recreations of simulated tissue etc , are the only preferable kinds of demonstration that are supposed to prove something hopefully scientist will not begin to go with your theorem of just because it has never been done doesn't mean it cannot happen someday
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Condescending to an entire state now. Nice going, Bill.
https://sofrep.com/36086/truth-jesse-venturas-navy-seal-status (https://sofrep.com/36086/truth-jesse-venturas-navy-seal-status)
Why is that ironic?
Add the States that voted Trump. Some have reversed that; more to come... thus gaining back their 'Sanity Card' status.
Your Special Ops seal site shelters their own of course. Others have differing views of the UD component.
You know what 8.3 refers to.
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That's "Governor Ventura" to you.
Not to me. I?m not from Minnesota, ?The Land of More than Ten Thousand Bad Voters?.
I?m not certain that this recent trend in America, electing non-politicians to high office, is a good trend. It?s good to see how someone handles himself in other elected offices for many years to see how they do before electing them to a higher office. ?All politicians are scoundrels?. And Ventura and Trump are not?
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The ballistic evidence is ignored
What exactly is the ballistic evidence?
CE399 matched to Oswald's Carcano to the exclusion of any other weapon ever made.
The Limo bullet fragments matched to Oswald's Carcano to the exclusion of any other weapon ever made.
We are off topic. But why not: Backlund has abandoned his own "subject".
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The CBS demonstration only showed one person able to accomplish the feat so not much of confirmation Yes you do not want people with a bias if you can avoid it, but surely you are not going to suggest the CBS folks weren't trying It seems the LN's only like experiments with melons, questionable recreations of simulated tissue etc , are the only preferable kinds of demonstration that are supposed to prove something hopefully scientist will not begin to go with your theorem of just because it has never been done doesn't mean it cannot happen someday
Yes... I believe the CBS "shooters" were trying. Trying to replicate the shooting sequence in less time than Oswald took to fire three shots.
It seems the LN's only like experiments with melons, questionable recreations of simulated tissue etc , are the only preferable kinds of demonstration that are supposed to prove something
You willing to be a live target?
hopefully scientist will not begin to go with your theorem of just because it has never been done doesn't mean it cannot happen someday
You've got me wrong. I think it (3 shots from the TSBD with a Carcano) can be done and think that it was done by Oswald.
I think Jesse Ventura (who wrestled Backlund) deliberately screwed up his attempt to fire 3 shots with a Carcano in less than 6 seconds.
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CE399 matched to Oswald's Carcano to the exclusion of any other weapon ever made.
The Limo bullet fragments matched to Oswald's Carcano to the exclusion of any other weapon ever made.
We are off topic. But why not: Backlund has abandoned his own "subject".
CE399 matched to Oswald's Carcano to the exclusion of any other weapon ever made.
Great, now all you have to do is prove that the bullet now in evidence is the same one that Tomlinson found on a stretcher at Parkland.
The Limo bullet fragments matched to Oswald's Carcano to the exclusion of any other weapon ever made.
Are you sure about that? But it doesn't really matter, just like the bullet now in evidence as CE 399, the fragments allegedly found in the limousine were given to the FBI by the Secret Service, who allegedly collected them from the limo before the FBI team that was supposed to search the car arrived. So, you really need to prove that the fragments now in evidence were indeed found in the limo.
I think you are going to have a problem in proving either which means that the ballastics are worthless as well.
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There have been questions over the years whether or not Dan Rather was waiting on the other side of the triple underpass in Dallas for a film pickup tossed from JFK's motorcade in Dallas on Nov. 22, 1963. If he indeed was, would he be standing on the left side of this photo?
(http://i67.tinypic.com/20toz7q.jpg)
Hi Bruce. First of all, welcome to the forum!
Secondly, since no one addressed your question, I'll take a shot at it.
I have always wondered where Rather was on the western side of the triple underpass, and, it may be that he is among the people on the left side of the photograph, or, he may be standing (out of frame) on the left side of the picture. We can't make out any detail, unfortunately, but since there are several people gathered on the west side of the underpass, he may very well be among the crowds gathered there.
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I am not sure of the name of test that matches the striation patterns that are imparted to all bullets being fired from a singular gun, and have never heard whether that was actually done CE 399, but there is no way you can do that test on small fragments So what test are you referring to? Has someone been listening to the worlds most neurotic person Ken Rahn again?
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The CBS demonstration only showed one person able to accomplish the feat so not much of confirmation Yes you do not want people with a bias if you can avoid it, but surely you are not going to suggest the CBS folks weren't trying It seems the LN's only like experiments with melons, questionable recreations of simulated tissue etc , are the only preferable kinds of demonstration that are supposed to prove something hopefully scientist will not begin to go with your theorem of just because it has never been done doesn't mean it cannot happen someday
Only one person eh? What exactly was the feat that the CBS demonstration was attempting to accomplish?
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I am not sure of the name of test that matches the striation patterns that are imparted to all bullets being fired from a singular gun, and have never heard whether that was actually done CE 399, but there is no way you can do that test on small fragments So what test are you referring to? Has someone been listening to the worlds most neurotic person Ken Rahn again?
Striation pattern comparison was used to match CE 399 with Oswald's rifle. The same goes for the two large fragments found in the limo.
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Striation pattern comparison was used to match CE 399 with Oswald's rifle. The same goes for the two large fragments found in the limo.
By Whom? What size were those fragments? At the MLK assassination the bullet recovered from the body was considered two deformed to test and it was basically an entire bullet
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By Whom?
FBI SA Robert Frazier, among others.
http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/russ/testimony/frazr1.htm
What size were those fragments?
https://www.maryferrell.org/photos.html?set=NARA-FRAGMENTS
There are nine photos in total.
At the MLK assassination the bullet recovered from the body was considered two deformed to test and it was basically an entire bullet
Similar to the MLK assassination bullet, the Walker bullet was too mutilated to be able to be matched to a rifle.
"Mr. FRAZIER - The bullet, 573, had what appeared to be normal-depth grooves. However, this bullet is completely flattened due to hitting a plaster or cement or other hard material on one side, and the opposite side, as a result of the flattening--has assumed a concave appearance, which has stretched the surface in various places and changes its overall appearance that is the basis for actually having to state that there were not enough unmutilated marks for identification purposes on it."
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Thanks for that Tim Do you know if they fired some bullets from other Manlichers to establish the variation in striation patterns? Obviously there is only a very small portion of striation patterns from 569 compared to a relatively intact bullet I did not see anyone try to qualify this difference Just Frazier's conclusion And not bring the MLK shooting in too much but the undamaged portion of the bullet from that shooting is much larger and a renowned expert testified that it should have been examined as evidence that the bullet came from Ray's gun We need some consistency from government agencies in they want credinility
And just to add top the obvious the chain of custody of both the ballistics is in doubt
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Thanks for that Tim Do you know if they fired some bullets from other Manlichers to establish the variation in striation patterns? Obviously there is only a very small portion of striation patterns from 569 compared to a relatively intact bullet I did not see anyone try to qualify this difference Just Frazier's conclusion And not bring the MLK shooting in too much but the undamaged portion of the bullet from that shooting is much larger and a renowned expert testified that it should have been examined as evidence that the bullet came from Ray's gun We need some consistency from government agencies in they want credinility
And just to add top the obvious the chain of custody of both the ballistics is in doubt
Matt, I don't know if they test fired with other Carcanos to establish variations in striation patterns or not. Frazier's conclusion was not his alone. His two fellow Lab specialists, Cunningham and Killion, confirmed his findings. Also, the WC had the bullet and fragments examined by Joseph Nicol of the Illinois Bureau of Criminal Identification and Investigation. He positively matched CE-399, CE-567, and CE-569 to Oswald's rifle.
http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/russ/testimony/nicol.htm
The chains of custody for the three items are not really in doubt. But I'm curious to know what you think it would mean if they were in doubt.
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Matt, I don't know if they test fired with other Carcanos to establish variations in striation patterns or not. Frazier's conclusion was not his alone. His two fellow Lab specialists, Cunningham and Killion, confirmed his findings. Also, the WC had the bullet and fragments examined by Joseph Nicol of the Illinois Bureau of Criminal Identification and Investigation. He positively matched CE-399, CE-567, and CE-569 to Oswald's rifle.
http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/russ/testimony/nicol.htm
The chains of custody for the three items are not really in doubt. But I'm curious to know what you think it would mean if they were in doubt.
We have been down the road of CE 3999 before, so I doubt we will make any progress on that As for the other two from the limo are you saying the limo was secured The agent who found the fragment apparently did so on his own initiative More than one person being involved in the recovery would have been more valid
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We have been down the road of CE 3999 before, so I doubt we will make any progress on that As for the other two from the limo are you saying the limo was secured The agent who found the fragment apparently did so on his own initiative More than one person being involved in the recovery would have been more valid
The limo was secured and there was more than one person involved in the examination of it and in the recovery of the fragments.
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Hi Bruce. First of all, welcome to the forum!
Secondly, since no one addressed your question, I'll take a shot at it.
I have always wondered where Rather was on the western side of the triple underpass, and, it may be that he is among the people on the left side of the photograph, or, he may be standing (out of frame) on the left side of the picture. We can't make out any detail, unfortunately, but since there are several people gathered on the west side of the underpass, he may very well be among the crowds gathered there.
Per the video of Rather explaining where he stood, he is likely one of the shadowy type figures standing on the sidewalk closer to the triple overpass in the photo.
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The limo was secured and there was more than one person involved in the examination of it and in the recovery of the fragments.
By whom?
Parkland witnesses claimed someone asked for a bucket of water and a rag? Photos show a bucket of war. Sam Kinney claims to have washed the limo
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By whom?
The Secret Service.
Parkland witnesses claimed someone asked for a bucket of water and a rag?
Did any of those Parkland witnesses have names?
Photos show a bucket of war.
Photos show a bucket.
Sam Kinney claims to have washed the limo
When did Kinney make that claim?
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The Secret Service.
Did any of those Parkland witnesses have names?
Photos show a bucket.
When did Kinney make that claim?
Statement By Agent Hickey.
Agent Sorrels met Agent Kinney and me outside the hotel and drove to the airport arriving about 9:00 a.m. We went directly to the garage and relieved the police of the security of the cars. Washed and cleaned both cars and checked outside, inside and underneath for security violations--none found.
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Here is a link in regard to who.
Do we have any details of who in the Secret Service was in charge of the limo at Parkland Are there any reports by the Secret Serice in terms of a report of how the limo was handled?
http://forum.assassinationofjfk.net/index.php/topic/371-ss-100x-limo-at-parkland/
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Here is a link in regard to who.
Do we have any details of who in the Secret Service was in charge of the limo at Parkland Are there any reports by the Secret Serice in terms of a report of how the limo was handled?
http://forum.assassinationofjfk.net/index.php/topic/371-ss-100x-limo-at-parkland/
When I click on that link I get a Malicious Site Warning.
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When I click on that link I get a Malicious Site Warning.
I will copy and paste then
From Steve Crisafi...
Interesting read...If this doesn't say "Frontal Shot" nothing does...
Limo Clean-Up/ Secret Service actions re: limo at Parkland Hospital:
1) "TheWay We Were-1963: The Year Kennedy Was Shot" by Robert MacNeil (1988, Carrol & Graf), p. 197:"The president's car was there [Parkland Hospital], still at the point where it had pulled up, and they had taken the president out into that emergency entrance...I remember that the Secret Service men were then STARTING TO MOP UP THE BACK SEAT OF THE BIG LINCOLN THE PRESIDENT WAS PUT IN, and a few minutes later they started putting the fabric top on it. And when I went over to look at it a little closer, one of the agents waved me aside and said, 'You can't look.' Later, of course, it seemed ironic that this wall of protection went up when it of course could do no good..."
2) 21 H 226: Parkland Hospital Orderly Joe L. Richards: asked to get a bucket of water; he complied.
3) 21 H 217: Nurse Shirley Randall: was asked if she "would get someone to come and wash the blood out of the car." She said that she would, but was so nervous and excited she forgot about it.
4) "Time" Magazine, 11/29/63, p. 24---reporter Hugh Sidey: "A guard was set up around the Lincoln as Secret Service men got a pail of water and tried to wash the blood from the car."
5) ABC, 11/22/63---reporter Don Gardner:"Outside the hospital, blood had to be wiped from the limousine";
6) "New York Times", 11/23/63, p. 2---reporter Tom Wicker:"...the police were guarding the Presidential car closely. A bucket of water stood by the car, suggesting that the back seat had been scrubbed out."
7) "The Day Kennedy Was Shot" by Jim Bishop, p. 352 [1992 edition]: "...the Secret Service detail was sorry that hospital orderlies had sponged it [the limousine] out."
8) "The Death of a President" by William Manchester, p. 180n [1988 edition]: "An inaccurate [?] story reported that they washed out the back seat with a bucket of water. Actually, this was contemplated."
9) "That Day In Dallas" by Richard Trask (1998), page 35 [based off a 7/10/85 interview with Stoughton; same as page 42 of Trask's "Pictures of the Pain"]---"[Cecil] Stoughton recalls that a man was washing the seat "with a cloth, and he had a bucket. There was blood all over the seat, and flower petals and stuff on the floor." On page 37 there is a Stoughton photo with the caption "A bucket at his feet, an agent [Kinney] is seen leaning into the back seat of the Lincoln cleaning up some of the gore." [Same photo, without this caption, appears on page 41 of "Pictures Of The Pain"];
10) "Pictures of The Pain" by Richard Trask (1994), pages 377 and 383 [based off a 5/23/85 interview with Thomas Craven, Jr.]---"The Secret Service cleaning the blood out of the car---the flowers still lying in the back seat---and just chaos until the police figured out what was happening, and then they started to push us off."
11)-12) 18 H 731-732---SS Agent Sam Kinney; 18 H 763-764---SS Agent George Hickey:
The two agents who put on the bubbletop---with the assistance of a DPD motorcycle officer---at Parkland: they are pictured in the infamous photos/films of the bucket beside the limousine: "JFK Assassination File" by DPD Chief Jesse Curry, p. 36 (see also p. 34: same photo, different angle in UPI's "Four Days", p. 25); Texas News newsreel ("Kennedy In Texas" video); WFAA/ ABC video 11/22/63; Cooper/ Sturges film; "Reasonable Doubt" by Henry Hurt (1985), p. 84;
13) 10/14/98 letter to Vince Palamara from Henry Burroughs--- ?The limousines that had carried the Presidential party and the Vice-Presidential party were askew. An agent with a stainless steel hospital bucket was cleaning up the rear seat of the President's limousine. Flowers were strewn over rear seats of both limos.?
14) DPD Bobby Joe Dale---"No More Silence" by Larry Sneed (1998), pp. 135-136"?the President was on the gurney beside the car, and they were wheeling him in. At that time, it was obvious that nobody could have survived a wound like that?Blood and matter was everywhere inside the car including a bone fragment which was oblong shaped, probably an inch to an inch and a half long by three-quarters of an inch wide. As I turned it over and looked at it, I determined that it came from some part of the forehead because there was hair on it which appeared to be near the hairline. There were other fragments around, but that was the largest piece that grabbed my attention. What stood out in my mind was that there was makeup up to the hairline. Apparently he had used makeup for the cameras to knock down the glare. It was fairly distinct where it stopped and the wrap of skin took up. Other than that, nobody messed with anything inside the car in any manner, shape, or form. Nobody said, "Clean this up!" We then put the top up and secured it."
15) 2/26/78 HSCA interview of Kinney??someone wanted to wash the (Presidential) car [at Parkland]. I said no one touch.?
16) 18 H 801: Hurchel Jacks, Texas Highway Patrolman assigned to drive LBJ?s car in Dallas motorcade---? We were assigned by the [Secret Service] to prevent any pictures of any kind to be taken of the President?s car or the inside.? 8/31/98 letter to author from Mrs. H.D. (Bobbie) Jacks, widow of Hurchel Jacks (Jacks passed away 12/19/95): ??he guarded Kennedy?s car to make sure that no photos were taken.? (See also ?Encyclopedia of the JFK Assassination,? page 121)
17) CD 3 Exhibits: Milton Wright, Texas Highway Patrolman assigned to drive Mayor Cabell?s car in the Dallas motorcade---??we were instructed to keep the news media away from the car.?
18) DPD James W. Courson & DPD Stavis Ellis---told author Larry Sneed about an incident whereupon a Secret Service agent destroyed the film of a young boy who took pictures of the limousine at Parkland [?No More Silence?, pages 130 & 148].
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I will copy and paste then
From Steve Crisafi...
Interesting read...If this doesn't say "Frontal Shot" nothing does...
Limo Clean-Up/ Secret Service actions re: limo at Parkland Hospital:
1) "TheWay We Were-1963: The Year Kennedy Was Shot" by Robert MacNeil (1988, Carrol & Graf), p. 197:"The president's car was there [Parkland Hospital], still at the point where it had pulled up, and they had taken the president out into that emergency entrance...I remember that the Secret Service men were then STARTING TO MOP UP THE BACK SEAT OF THE BIG LINCOLN THE PRESIDENT WAS PUT IN, and a few minutes later they started putting the fabric top on it. And when I went over to look at it a little closer, one of the agents waved me aside and said, 'You can't look.' Later, of course, it seemed ironic that this wall of protection went up when it of course could do no good..."
2) 21 H 226: Parkland Hospital Orderly Joe L. Richards: asked to get a bucket of water; he complied.
3) 21 H 217: Nurse Shirley Randall: was asked if she "would get someone to come and wash the blood out of the car." She said that she would, but was so nervous and excited she forgot about it.
4) "Time" Magazine, 11/29/63, p. 24---reporter Hugh Sidey: "A guard was set up around the Lincoln as Secret Service men got a pail of water and tried to wash the blood from the car."
5) ABC, 11/22/63---reporter Don Gardner:"Outside the hospital, blood had to be wiped from the limousine";
6) "New York Times", 11/23/63, p. 2---reporter Tom Wicker:"...the police were guarding the Presidential car closely. A bucket of water stood by the car, suggesting that the back seat had been scrubbed out."
7) "The Day Kennedy Was Shot" by Jim Bishop, p. 352 [1992 edition]: "...the Secret Service detail was sorry that hospital orderlies had sponged it [the limousine] out."
8) "The Death of a President" by William Manchester, p. 180n [1988 edition]: "An inaccurate [?] story reported that they washed out the back seat with a bucket of water. Actually, this was contemplated."
9) "That Day In Dallas" by Richard Trask (1998), page 35 [based off a 7/10/85 interview with Stoughton; same as page 42 of Trask's "Pictures of the Pain"]---"[Cecil] Stoughton recalls that a man was washing the seat "with a cloth, and he had a bucket. There was blood all over the seat, and flower petals and stuff on the floor." On page 37 there is a Stoughton photo with the caption "A bucket at his feet, an agent [Kinney] is seen leaning into the back seat of the Lincoln cleaning up some of the gore." [Same photo, without this caption, appears on page 41 of "Pictures Of The Pain"];
10) "Pictures of The Pain" by Richard Trask (1994), pages 377 and 383 [based off a 5/23/85 interview with Thomas Craven, Jr.]---"The Secret Service cleaning the blood out of the car---the flowers still lying in the back seat---and just chaos until the police figured out what was happening, and then they started to push us off."
11)-12) 18 H 731-732---SS Agent Sam Kinney; 18 H 763-764---SS Agent George Hickey:
The two agents who put on the bubbletop---with the assistance of a DPD motorcycle officer---at Parkland: they are pictured in the infamous photos/films of the bucket beside the limousine: "JFK Assassination File" by DPD Chief Jesse Curry, p. 36 (see also p. 34: same photo, different angle in UPI's "Four Days", p. 25); Texas News newsreel ("Kennedy In Texas" video); WFAA/ ABC video 11/22/63; Cooper/ Sturges film; "Reasonable Doubt" by Henry Hurt (1985), p. 84;
13) 10/14/98 letter to Vince Palamara from Henry Burroughs--- ?The limousines that had carried the Presidential party and the Vice-Presidential party were askew. An agent with a stainless steel hospital bucket was cleaning up the rear seat of the President's limousine. Flowers were strewn over rear seats of both limos.?
14) DPD Bobby Joe Dale---"No More Silence" by Larry Sneed (1998), pp. 135-136"?the President was on the gurney beside the car, and they were wheeling him in. At that time, it was obvious that nobody could have survived a wound like that?Blood and matter was everywhere inside the car including a bone fragment which was oblong shaped, probably an inch to an inch and a half long by three-quarters of an inch wide. As I turned it over and looked at it, I determined that it came from some part of the forehead because there was hair on it which appeared to be near the hairline. There were other fragments around, but that was the largest piece that grabbed my attention. What stood out in my mind was that there was makeup up to the hairline. Apparently he had used makeup for the cameras to knock down the glare. It was fairly distinct where it stopped and the wrap of skin took up. Other than that, nobody messed with anything inside the car in any manner, shape, or form. Nobody said, "Clean this up!" We then put the top up and secured it."
15) 2/26/78 HSCA interview of Kinney??someone wanted to wash the (Presidential) car [at Parkland]. I said no one touch.?
16) 18 H 801: Hurchel Jacks, Texas Highway Patrolman assigned to drive LBJ?s car in Dallas motorcade---? We were assigned by the [Secret Service] to prevent any pictures of any kind to be taken of the President?s car or the inside.? 8/31/98 letter to author from Mrs. H.D. (Bobbie) Jacks, widow of Hurchel Jacks (Jacks passed away 12/19/95): ??he guarded Kennedy?s car to make sure that no photos were taken.? (See also ?Encyclopedia of the JFK Assassination,? page 121)
17) CD 3 Exhibits: Milton Wright, Texas Highway Patrolman assigned to drive Mayor Cabell?s car in the Dallas motorcade---??we were instructed to keep the news media away from the car.?
18) DPD James W. Courson & DPD Stavis Ellis---told author Larry Sneed about an incident whereupon a Secret Service agent destroyed the film of a young boy who took pictures of the limousine at Parkland [?No More Silence?, pages 130 & 148].
Lots of conflicting accounts.
The existing photos showing the mess on the back seat of the limo tell us that the limo was not cleaned at all before it reached the White House garage.
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Lots of conflicting accounts.
The existing photos showing the mess on the back seat of the limo tell us that the limo was not cleaned at all before it reached the White House garage.
Why would it be OK to clean it when it got the WH?
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Why would it be OK to clean it when it got the WH?
It wasn't cleaned until AFTER it was inspected. Robert Frazier's inspection of it was cursory. Read his WC testimony. Nothing inside of the car was "washed" before the car arrived in D.C. NOTHING!
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It wasn't cleaned until AFTER it was inspected. Robert Frazier's inspection of it was cursory. Read his WC testimony. Nothing inside of the car was "washed" before the car arrived in D.C. NOTHING!
Who inspected it and where is the report?
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Lots of conflicting accounts.
The existing photos showing the mess on the back seat of the limo tell us that the limo was not cleaned at all before it reached the White House garage.
You are saying nothing was removed or cleaned before it reached WH gararge?
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It wasn't cleaned until AFTER it was inspected. Robert Frazier's inspection of it was cursory. Read his WC testimony. Nothing inside of the car was "washed" before the car arrived in D.C. NOTHING!
i save my absolutist proclamations for things I can be absolutely certain about
I think this recent addition to the JFK table is most intriguing and hovering under the radar here. Gary Leuchs, the neighbor of the late Secret Service agent (Sam Kinney) who was driving the car behind JFK in Dallas, claims Kinney told him of how he found the "pristine" bullet in the limo while he was cleaning it up outside Parkland Hospital and then took it in and placed it on the stretcher outside the ER where the doctors were working on JFK!!!
Bob Tuskin Radio Show:
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Who inspected it and where is the report?
I told you. Robert Frazier. Read his Warren Commission testimony. His original personal hand notes along with hand drawn diagrams of the limo are also available online.
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I told you. Robert Frazier. Read his Warren Commission testimony. His original personal hand notes along with hand drawn diagrams of the limo are also available online.
My understanding is that Frazier was at the FBI lab Can you point to somewhere in the WC testimony where he is on C 130 flight?
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My understanding is that Frazier was at the FBI lab Can you point to somewhere in the WC testimony where he is on C 130 flight?
Who ever stated that Frazier was on C 130 flight?
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(https://i.imgur.com/zQeZT2G.png)
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My understanding is that Frazier was at the FBI lab Can you point to somewhere in the WC testimony where he is on C 130 flight?
Where in the world did you get such information that Frazier was at the FBI lab? Are you suggesting that Frazier is lying and that he didn't do a cursory examination of the limousine on 11/23/63 ?
(https://i.imgur.com/pGRNsjw.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/btYNF3W.jpg)
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Where in the world did you get such information that Frazier was at the FBI lab? Are you suggesting that Frazier is lying and that he didn't do a cursory examination of the limousine on 11/23/63 ?
(https://i.imgur.com/pGRNsjw.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/btYNF3W.jpg)
Nice quality scans Steve. Thanks for posting them.
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My understanding is that Frazier was at the FBI lab Can you point to somewhere in the WC testimony where he is on C 130 flight?
Frazier testified in the Clay Shaw trial that he examined the limo after it arrived in Washington. This was the early morning on Saturday beginning at around one a.m.
Q: Mr. Frazier, at any time after November 22, 1963 did you have occasion to examine the vehicle in which President Kennedy was riding at the time of his assassination?
Frazier: Yes, sir, I did.
Q: Where and when, sir, did this examination take place?
Frazier: It took place in the United States Secret Service Garage in Washington, D.C. My examination began at approximately 1:00 o'clock on the morning of November 23 and ended about 4:30 that same morning.
His entire testimony is here: http://www.jfk-online.com/rfraziershaw.html
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Jesse Ventura is a known JFK conspiracy theorist.
So what? Is that supposed to discredit him? You're a known LNer.
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CE399 matched to Oswald's Carcano to the exclusion of any other weapon ever made.
The Limo bullet fragments matched to Oswald's Carcano to the exclusion of any other weapon ever made.
We are off topic. But why not: Backlund has abandoned his own "subject".
Is that's supposed to somehow prove that 3 shots were fired at the motorcade from the SE 6th floor window of the TSBD and two of them were responsible for Kennedy's and Connally's wounds?
"Oswald's rifle". LOL.
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Yes... I believe the CBS "shooters" were trying. Trying to replicate the shooting sequence in less time than Oswald took to fire three shots.
Why do you just make up data? How do you know how long it took to fire the shots, or that Oswald fired them?
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Striation pattern comparison was used to match CE 399 with Oswald's rifle.
Not that it matters, since there's no evidence that CE399 was involved in the assassination.
"Oswald's rifle". LOL.
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Lots of conflicting accounts.
The existing photos showing the mess on the back seat of the limo tell us that the limo was not cleaned at all before it reached the White House garage.
How do you know what it looked like before it was cleaned?
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The chains of custody for the three items are not really in doubt.
They are all in doubt. Frazier wasn't there when the alleged limo fragments were "found".
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Per the video of Rather explaining where he stood, he is likely one of the shadowy type figures standing on the sidewalk closer to the triple overpass in the photo.
For accuracy and general clarity...it is called the triple underpass ;)
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I will copy and paste then
From Steve Crisafi...
Interesting read...If this doesn't say "Frontal Shot" nothing does...
Limo Clean-Up/ Secret Service actions re: limo at Parkland Hospital:
1) "TheWay We Were-1963: The Year Kennedy Was Shot" by Robert MacNeil (1988, Carrol & Graf), p. 197:"The president's car was there [Parkland Hospital], still at the point where it had pulled up, and they had taken the president out into that emergency entrance...I remember that the Secret Service men were then STARTING TO MOP UP THE BACK SEAT OF THE BIG LINCOLN THE PRESIDENT WAS PUT IN, and a few minutes later they started putting the fabric top on it. And when I went over to look at it a little closer, one of the agents waved me aside and said, 'You can't look.' Later, of course, it seemed ironic that this wall of protection went up when it of course could do no good..."
2) 21 H 226: Parkland Hospital Orderly Joe L. Richards: asked to get a bucket of water; he complied.
3) 21 H 217: Nurse Shirley Randall: was asked if she "would get someone to come and wash the blood out of the car." She said that she would, but was so nervous and excited she forgot about it.
4) "Time" Magazine, 11/29/63, p. 24---reporter Hugh Sidey: "A guard was set up around the Lincoln as Secret Service men got a pail of water and tried to wash the blood from the car."
5) ABC, 11/22/63---reporter Don Gardner:"Outside the hospital, blood had to be wiped from the limousine";
6) "New York Times", 11/23/63, p. 2---reporter Tom Wicker:"...the police were guarding the Presidential car closely. A bucket of water stood by the car, suggesting that the back seat had been scrubbed out."
7) "The Day Kennedy Was Shot" by Jim Bishop, p. 352 [1992 edition]: "...the Secret Service detail was sorry that hospital orderlies had sponged it [the limousine] out."
8) "The Death of a President" by William Manchester, p. 180n [1988 edition]: "An inaccurate [?] story reported that they washed out the back seat with a bucket of water. Actually, this was contemplated."
9) "That Day In Dallas" by Richard Trask (1998), page 35 [based off a 7/10/85 interview with Stoughton; same as page 42 of Trask's "Pictures of the Pain"]---"[Cecil] Stoughton recalls that a man was washing the seat "with a cloth, and he had a bucket. There was blood all over the seat, and flower petals and stuff on the floor." On page 37 there is a Stoughton photo with the caption "A bucket at his feet, an agent [Kinney] is seen leaning into the back seat of the Lincoln cleaning up some of the gore." [Same photo, without this caption, appears on page 41 of "Pictures Of The Pain"];
10) "Pictures of The Pain" by Richard Trask (1994), pages 377 and 383 [based off a 5/23/85 interview with Thomas Craven, Jr.]---"The Secret Service cleaning the blood out of the car---the flowers still lying in the back seat---and just chaos until the police figured out what was happening, and then they started to push us off."
11)-12) 18 H 731-732---SS Agent Sam Kinney; 18 H 763-764---SS Agent George Hickey:
The two agents who put on the bubbletop---with the assistance of a DPD motorcycle officer---at Parkland: they are pictured in the infamous photos/films of the bucket beside the limousine: "JFK Assassination File" by DPD Chief Jesse Curry, p. 36 (see also p. 34: same photo, different angle in UPI's "Four Days", p. 25); Texas News newsreel ("Kennedy In Texas" video); WFAA/ ABC video 11/22/63; Cooper/ Sturges film; "Reasonable Doubt" by Henry Hurt (1985), p. 84;
13) 10/14/98 letter to Vince Palamara from Henry Burroughs--- ?The limousines that had carried the Presidential party and the Vice-Presidential party were askew. An agent with a stainless steel hospital bucket was cleaning up the rear seat of the President's limousine. Flowers were strewn over rear seats of both limos.?
14) DPD Bobby Joe Dale---"No More Silence" by Larry Sneed (1998), pp. 135-136"?the President was on the gurney beside the car, and they were wheeling him in. At that time, it was obvious that nobody could have survived a wound like that?Blood and matter was everywhere inside the car including a bone fragment which was oblong shaped, probably an inch to an inch and a half long by three-quarters of an inch wide. As I turned it over and looked at it, I determined that it came from some part of the forehead because there was hair on it which appeared to be near the hairline. There were other fragments around, but that was the largest piece that grabbed my attention. What stood out in my mind was that there was makeup up to the hairline. Apparently he had used makeup for the cameras to knock down the glare. It was fairly distinct where it stopped and the wrap of skin took up. Other than that, nobody messed with anything inside the car in any manner, shape, or form. Nobody said, "Clean this up!" We then put the top up and secured it."
15) 2/26/78 HSCA interview of Kinney??someone wanted to wash the (Presidential) car [at Parkland]. I said no one touch.?
16) 18 H 801: Hurchel Jacks, Texas Highway Patrolman assigned to drive LBJ?s car in Dallas motorcade---? We were assigned by the [Secret Service] to prevent any pictures of any kind to be taken of the President?s car or the inside.? 8/31/98 letter to author from Mrs. H.D. (Bobbie) Jacks, widow of Hurchel Jacks (Jacks passed away 12/19/95): ??he guarded Kennedy?s car to make sure that no photos were taken.? (See also ?Encyclopedia of the JFK Assassination,? page 121)
17) CD 3 Exhibits: Milton Wright, Texas Highway Patrolman assigned to drive Mayor Cabell?s car in the Dallas motorcade---??we were instructed to keep the news media away from the car.?
18) DPD James W. Courson & DPD Stavis Ellis---told author Larry Sneed about an incident whereupon a Secret Service agent destroyed the film of a young boy who took pictures of the limousine at Parkland [?No More Silence?, pages 130 & 148].
(11-12) Interesting that SA Hickey assissted with the Bubble Top installation in order to prevent any Image Evidence from being gathered. Also, Hickey is all over that bucket that was used to wipe down the rear seat of the Limo. 1 minute Hickey is manning the AR-15 and the next minute he is relegated to Car Wash Duties. It could very well be that Hickey had a vested interest in eliminating/concealing this assassination evidence.
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CE399 matched to Oswald's Carcano to the exclusion of any other weapon ever made.
The Limo bullet fragments matched to Oswald's Carcano to the exclusion of any other weapon ever made.
We are off topic. But why not: Backlund has abandoned his own "subject".
"Oswald's Carcano". LOL. Good one. Too bad for you there is no supporting evidence for this claim.
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It could very well be that Hickey had a vested interest in eliminating/concealing this assassination evidence.
The dead president had more protection than he did when he was alive.
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I'd rather you guys stuck to the topic: Where is Dan Rather?
My opinion: Dan Rather is enjoying his retirement.
Regarding the poorly worded SUBJECT title: Why not a more precise topic, "Where is Dan Rather in the group of men near the triple underpass"?
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I'd rather you guys stuck to the topic: Where is Dan Rather?
My opinion: Dan Rather is enjoying his retirement.
Regarding the poorly worded SUBJECT title: Why not a more precise topic, "Where is Dan Rather in the group of men near the triple underpass"?
Rather is currently on AXS TV doing 60 minute interviews with past Country/Rock/Hollywood Stars.
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Rather is currently on AXS TV doing 60 minute interviews with past Country/Rock/Hollywood Stars.
Thanks Royal,
I did see one a few weeks ago. Was it Willie Nelson? Not sure. Must be losing my memory!!!".
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"Oswald's Carcano". LOL. Good one. Too bad for you there is no supporting evidence for this claim.
There is evidence that demonstrates that the Carcano C2766 is a rifle that Oswald, purchased, owned and possessed. You "disputing" all the evidence does not eliminate its existence.
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There is evidence that demonstrates that the Carcano C2766 is a rifle that Oswald, purchased, owned and possessed. You "disputing" all the evidence does not eliminate its existence.
And by ?evidence? you mean biased and unscientific handwriting ?analysis? of two block letters on a photo of a microfilm copy of a two-inch order coupon from film that is now missing, and a whole lot of conjecture.
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And by ?evidence? you mean biased and unscientific handwriting ?analysis? of two block letters on a photo of a microfilm copy of a two-inch order coupon from film that is now missing, and a whole lot of conjecture.
Turns out I'm not alone as someone that Iacoletti doesn't believe.... He's barely able to accept the fact that the sun rises in the east......
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And by ?evidence? you mean biased and unscientific handwriting ?analysis? of two block letters on a photo of a microfilm copy of a two-inch order coupon from film that is now missing, and a whole lot of conjecture.
That...and the convoluted 'testimony' of a desperate woman.
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Turns out I'm not alone as someone that Iacoletti doesn't believe.... He's barely able to accept the fact that the sun rises in the east......
I believe things that there are good reasons to believe. "Walt said so" or "Warren Commission said so" aren't good reasons.
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That...and the convoluted 'testimony' of a desperate woman.
I presume you are speaking of Marina Oswald. If so, you're estimate of her "state of mind" [desperate] at the time of her testimony is entirely subjective... and therefore of no value whatsoever.
As a great "seer", you should be able to identify Dan Rather in the group of men near the Triple Underpass.
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I presume you are speaking of Marina Oswald. If so, you're estimate of her "state of mind" [desperate] at the time of her testimony is entirely subjective... and therefore of no value whatsoever.
Sez U. It was no "estimate". She lied, falsified information, perjured herself at every turn and spun the most unbelievable yarns. The only ones who could possibly believe her ridiculous attestations would be those who have never read them.
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Sez U. It was no "estimate". She lied, falsified information, perjured herself at every turn and spun the most unbelievable yarns. The only ones who could possibly believe her ridiculous attestations would be those who have never read them.
Examples please with detailed analyses.
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Examples please with detailed analyses.
There is a search function available. Why not make use of it?
The topic here is Dan Rather.
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There is a search function available. Why not make use of it?
The topic here is Dan Rather.
The topic here is Dan Rather.
Right. So why did you blah-on about Marina Oswald?
Incidentally, a search will not identify the person in the group near the Triple Underpass (In the photo posted by the Member who started this Subject) where is Dan Rather.
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The topic here is Dan Rather. Right. So why did you blah-on about Marina Oswald? Incidentally, a search will not identify the person in the group near the Triple Underpass (In the photo posted by the Member who started this Subject) who is Dan Rather.
You mean where?
"Blah" huh?. I typed 9 words...in response to post # 59 <<< yours
Dan 'the Rat' Rather--- Demonstrating a package that never existed. Randle's depiction...well-- not quite long enough.
(https://i.postimg.cc/CKYc2Szj/bag_comparison.jpg)
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The ballistic evidence is ignored
What exactly is the ballistic evidence?
When the investigating officer does not maintain the chain of evidence... the Chief of detectives goes "ballistic".