JFK Assassination Forum
JFK Assassination Discussion & Debate => JFK Assassination Discussion & Debate => Topic started by: Matt Grantham on April 06, 2018, 03:04:54 PM
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Likely many of you have heard about this but I stumbled upon it for the first time looking for info on the bullet fragments found inside the limo
https://whowhatwhy.org/2017/10/06/navy-doctor-bullet-found-jfks-limousine-never-reported/
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Sounds like the stretcher bullet
"a spent, misshapen, but otherwise intact, bullet"
It should be noted that the bullet that hit Connally is probably still lodged in his thigh bone. The stretcher bullet is not the "magic bullet".
There were three shots fired by the Carcano rifle in the book depository. One missed completely and hit the pavement behind the car, possibly due to accidentally hitting a traffic signal first (http://www.kbrhorse.net/signals/eagle03a.html) The second shot hit Kennedy and Connally, and the third shot also missed and wedged itself in the car, later found and ended up on the stretcher.
The fatal shot came from a different gun using different ammunition, the lead fragments of which were found in the car.
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Thanks Paul
James Dahl Are you saying the bullet found on the Parkland stretcher is not the magic bullet?
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Thanks Paul
James Dahl Are you saying the bullet found on the Parkland stretcher is not the magic bullet?
It's absolutely not the magic bullet because it's not fragmented. The remains of the magic bullet are still lodged in Connally's thigh bone.
There were plans to dig them out of his thigh bone in 1993 but AFAIK he was never exhumed: https://www.nytimes.com/1993/06/18/us/fbi-backs-plan-to-remove-connally-bullet-fragments.html
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Carcano bullet 1: struck the street behind the car, AFAIK was never recovered
Carcano bullet 2: "magic" bullet, remains of which are still in the body of John Connally
Carcano bullet 3: struck the interior of the car and remained largely intact, discovered later by navy doctor, ended up on the stretcher in Parkland hospital, re-branded as carcano bullet 2
UNKNOWN BULLET FROM UNKNOWN GUN: struck Kennedy in the head, disintegrated/expanded on impact, fragments later found in skull
The three spent casings in the sniper nest confirm he fired three shots, and all three bullets are accounted for. The problem is none of them are the one that killed Kennedy.
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Sorry Not correct
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Sorry Not correct
Debating with brick walls is fun
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The bullet at Parkland came off Connally's stretcher Therefore one would expect it came from Connally
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Sounds like the stretcher bullet
"a spent, misshapen, but otherwise intact, bullet"
It should be noted that the bullet that hit Connally is probably still lodged in his thigh bone. The stretcher bullet is not the "magic bullet".
There were three shots fired by the Carcano rifle in the book depository. One missed completely and hit the pavement behind the car, possibly due to accidentally hitting a traffic signal first (http://www.kbrhorse.net/signals/eagle03a.html) The second shot hit Kennedy and Connally, and the third shot also missed and wedged itself in the car, later found and ended up on the stretcher.
The fatal shot came from a different gun using different ammunition, the lead fragments of which were found in the car.
James, The bullet that struck Connally was never lodged in his thigh bone. The bullet fell out of his thigh onto his stretcher but there was a very tiny fragment of lead left in the flesh of the thigh.
The fatal shot came from the same rifle using the same ammunition.
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James, The bullet that struck Connally was never lodged in his thigh bone. The bullet fell out of his thigh onto his stretcher but there was a very tiny fragment of lead left in the flesh of the thigh.
The fatal shot came from the same rifle using the same ammunition.
A theory was proposed that this is where the bullet came from, but there are no fragments missing from the stretcher bullet, it has compression damage only, no fragmentation.
The bullet fragments from Connally were never recovered or examined, and there is no exit wound on Connally, all of the bullet fragments are still in his body
Not all bullets exit, and the bullet that travelled through Connally's body did enormous amounts of damage but also lost enormous amounts of inertia and came to a rest in his thigh. This is not theoretical this is what Connally's medical records say, the bullet is still there.
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The bullet at Parkland came off Connally's stretcher Therefore one would expect it came from Connally
Whether the Pristine Bullet fell from the stretcher of Connally or JFK is a contested issue. Specter knew the stretcher issue was critical with regard to the SBT & this is reflected in Specter persistently attempting to twist the WC Testimony of Daryl Tomlinson who witnessed the bullet fall from the stretcher. (1) A Shallow JFK Back Wound, (2) A Pristine Bullet, & (3) Said Pristine Bullet falling from JFK's Stretcher = Total demolition of the SBT & The Lone Gunman Mantra.
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Whether the Pristine Bullet fell from the stretcher of Connally or JFK is a contested issue. Specter knew the stretcher issue was critical with regard to the SBT & this is reflected in Specter persistently attempting to twist the WC Testimony of Daryl Tomlinson who witnessed the bullet fall from the stretcher. (1) A Shallow JFK Back Wound, (2) A Pristine Bullet, & (3) Said Pristine Bullet falling from JFK's Stretcher = Total demolition of the SBT & The Lone Gunman Mantra.
Personally it seems pretty obvious it could have only come from the wound in JFK's back I was just trying to explain the basic narrative to James Dahl
OP Wright, who was in charge of security at Parkland, claims he got the bullet from Tomlinson and is quoted rather strongly that CE 399 is not the bullet they found on Nov22nd 1963
https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2007/05/070517142528.htm
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The whole story is such obvious bullspombleprofglidnoctobuns though.
1: There is no exit wound on Connally, the bullet is still in his body
2: There are bullet fragments all throughout Connally's body, but the stretcher bullet is not fragmented at all, only compression deformed
3: If the bullet that passed through Kennedy is the same one that entered Connally, it cannot be the stretcher bullet, because that bullet is in Connally's thigh
The stretcher bullet cannot be the first shot as that was never found, and chipped the pavement
The stretcher bullet cannot be the second shot as that fragmented and remained in Connally
The stretcher bullet can only be the third shot, but this cannot be the head wound because again, it is not fragmented, only deformed
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Personally it seems pretty obvious it could have only come from the wound in JFK's back I was just trying to explain the basic narrative to James Dahl
OP Wright, who in charge of security at Parkland, claims he got the bullet from Tomlinson is quoted rather strongly that CE 399 is not the bullet they found on Nov22nd 1963
https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2007/05/070517142528.htm
You are absolutely right. OP Wright categorically rejected that CE399 was the bullet that Tomlinson saw fall from the stretcher.
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Hmm actually what if CE399 is the pavement bullet? Recovered and placed on the stretcher later?
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A theory was proposed that this is where the bullet came from, but there are no fragments missing from the stretcher bullet, it has compression damage only, no fragmentation.
The bullet fragments from Connally were never recovered or examined, and there is no exit wound on Connally, all of the bullet fragments are still in his body
Not all bullets exit, and the bullet that travelled through Connally's body did enormous amounts of damage but also lost enormous amounts of inertia and came to a rest in his thigh. This is not theoretical this is what Connally's medical records say, the bullet is still there.
James, your knowledge on the details of the assassination is extremely lacking. You may want to familiarize yourself with the basics of the case before opining on it. Connally had at least two exit wounds. Three when you consider that the bullet exited his thigh on it's own. There were six fragments of lead detected in his body; five in his wrist and one in his thigh. Four of the fragments in his wrist were removed by Dr. Gregory.
(https://i.imgur.com/GH0modO.gif)
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Personally it seems pretty obvious it could have only come from the wound in JFK's back I was just trying to explain the basic narrative to James Dahl
OP Wright, who in charge of security at Parkland, claims he got the bullet from Tomlinson is quoted rather strongly that CE 399 is not the bullet they found on Nov22nd 1963
https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2007/05/070517142528.htm
Matt, OP Wright never went on record stating that the bullet that he got from Tomlinson was not CE-399.
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Being on the record being defined by appearing before the Warren Commission?
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James, your knowledge on the details of the assassination is extremely lacking. You may want to familiarize yourself with the basics of the case before opining on it. Connally had at least two exit wounds. Three when you consider that the bullet exited his thigh on it's own. There were six fragments of lead detected in his body; five in his wrist and one in his thigh. Four of the fragments in his wrist were removed by Dr. Gregory.
(https://i.imgur.com/GH0modO.gif)
Yeah, and those Fragments you have posted are Not indicative of the condition of the Pristine Bullet. Plus, there were Extra Bullet Fragments still within the body of Connally. Even Humes did Not buy into the SBT, and his opinion was solely based on the Numerous Bullet Fragments vs the Condition of the SBT.
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Matt, OP Wright never went on record stating that the bullet that he got from Tomlinson was not CE-399.
It was No accident that OP Wright was Not called to testify before the WC. There is a Long List of Key Eyewitnesses that the WC avoided hearing testify & having their account Historically Documented.
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Being on the record being defined by appearing before the Warren Commission?
No. Although, that certainly would be one way. He never stated publicly, in written, transcribed or audio form, that CE-399 was definitely not the bullet that he handled. He could not positively identify it as being the same bullet but he never ruled it out either.
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James, your knowledge on the details of the assassination is extremely lacking. You may want to familiarize yourself with the basics of the case before opining on it. Connally had at least two exit wounds. Three when you consider that the bullet exited his thigh on it's own. There were six fragments of lead detected in his body; five in his wrist and one in his thigh. Four of the fragments in his wrist were removed by Dr. Gregory.
(https://i.imgur.com/GH0modO.gif)
The notes for CE-842 state it was extracted from Connally's wrist, not his thigh. Connally has an exit wound in his chest, he only has an entrance wound on his thigh. Connally's exit wound on his chest isn't an exit from his body though because the bullet proceeded to enter his thigh and is still there. Some fragments of the bullet were found in the car but most lodged into Connally's body.
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No. Although, that certainly would be one way. He never stated publicly, in written, transcribed or audio form, that CE-399 was definitely not the bullet that he handled. He could not positively identify it as being the same bullet but he never ruled it out either.
Wright also never confirmed publicly that the bullet now in evidence as CE 399 is in fact the bullet he received from Tomlinson either.
And Tomlinson, who did appear before the WC, was never shown CE 399 during his testimony, because....... it was only entered into evidence after he had testified. Go figure!
Tomlinson btw also never confirmed that the bullet now in evidence as CE 399 was indeed the bullet he found.
There is in fact no positive identification of bullet CE 399 by the first four people who handled it. For all we know bullet CE 399 started it's evidentiary life at the FBI lab in Washington.
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Six Seconds in Dallas reported on an interview with O.P. Wright in November 1966. Before any photos were shown or he was asked for any description of #399, Wright said: ?That bullet had a pointed tip.?
?Pointed tip?? Thompson asked.
?Yeah, I?ll show you. It was like this one here,? he said, reaching into his desk and pulling out the .30 caliber bullet pictured in Six Seconds.?[8]
As Thompson described it in 1967, ?I then showed him photographs of CE?s 399, 572 (the two ballistics comparison rounds from Oswald?s rifle) (sic), and 606 (revolver bullets) (sic), and he rejected all of these as resembling the bullet Tomlinson found on the stretcher. Half an hour later in the presence of two witnesses, he once again rejected the picture of 399 as resembling the bullet found on the stretcher.?[9]
[Fig. 4]
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The notes for CE-842 state it was extracted from Connally's wrist, not his thigh.
Right. I already noted that a fragment was left in his thigh.
Connally has an exit wound in his chest, he only has an entrance wound on his thigh.
He had an exit wound in his chest, an exit wound in his wrist. The wound in his thigh was primarily an entrance wound but the bullet also did exit through that same wound.
Connally's exit wound on his chest isn't an exit from his body though
That's nonsense. Of course it's an exit from his body.
because the bullet proceeded to enter his thigh and is still there.
The bullet is not still there.
Some fragments of the bullet were found in the car but most lodged into Connally's body.
None of the fragments of the bullet were found in the car.
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Six Seconds in Dallas reported on an interview with O.P. Wright in November 1966. Before any photos were shown or he was asked for any description of #399, Wright said: ?That bullet had a pointed tip.?
?Pointed tip?? Thompson asked.
?Yeah, I?ll show you. It was like this one here,? he said, reaching into his desk and pulling out the .30 caliber bullet pictured in Six Seconds.?[8]
As Thompson described it in 1967, ?I then showed him photographs of CE?s 399, 572 (the two ballistics comparison rounds from Oswald?s rifle) (sic), and 606 (revolver bullets) (sic), and he rejected all of these as resembling the bullet Tomlinson found on the stretcher. Half an hour later in the presence of two witnesses, he once again rejected the picture of 399 as resembling the bullet found on the stretcher.?[9]
[Fig. 4]
That's not a statement made publicly. It's hearsay. Thompson claims that there were two witnesses there. However, both are now deceased and neither of them went on record to confirm Thompson's claim.
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Six Seconds in Dallas reported on an interview with O.P. Wright in November 1966. Before any photos were shown or he was asked for any description of #399, Wright said: ?That bullet had a pointed tip.?
?Pointed tip?? Thompson asked.
?Yeah, I?ll show you. It was like this one here,? he said, reaching into his desk and pulling out the .30 caliber bullet pictured in Six Seconds.?[8]
As Thompson described it in 1967, ?I then showed him photographs of CE?s 399, 572 (the two ballistics comparison rounds from Oswald?s rifle) (sic), and 606 (revolver bullets) (sic), and he rejected all of these as resembling the bullet Tomlinson found on the stretcher. Half an hour later in the presence of two witnesses, he once again rejected the picture of 399 as resembling the bullet found on the stretcher.?[9]
[Fig. 4]
You need to understand that Tim, on the one hand, will dismiss out of hand just about anything that points to the problematic nature of CE 399 whilst, on the other hand, accepting even the most vague and questionable "evidence" that possibly could comfirm the veracity of CE 399.
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That's not a statement made publicly. It's hearsay. Thompson claims that there were two witnesses there. However, both are now deceased and neither of them went on record to confirm Thompson's claim.
I never claimed it was a public statement. It has already been noted that Warren commissions lack of either Tomlinson, or Wright, being to testify to authenticity in front of them is not just a neutral position There is the 64 FBI memo claiming ?appears to be the same one? However, the FBI agent who is supposed to have gotten that admission, Bardwell Odum, and the Bureau?s own once-secret records, don?t back up #2011. Those records say only that neither Tomlinson nor Wright was able to identify the bullet in question, a comment that leaves the impression they saw no resemblance
Mr. Odum told Aguilar, ?I didn?t show it [#399] to anybody at Parkland. I didn?t have any bullet ? I don?t think I ever saw it even.? [Fig. 11] Unwilling to leave it at that, both authors paid Mr. Odum a visit in his Dallas home on November 21, 2002. The same alert, friendly man on the phone greeted us warmly and led us to a comfortable family room. To ensure no misunderstanding, we laid out before Mr. Odum all the relevant documents and read aloud from them.
Again, Mr. Odum said that he had never had any bullet related to the Kennedy assassination in his possession, whether during the FBI?s investigation in 1964 or at any other time. Asked whether he might have forgotten the episode, Mr. Odum remarked that he doubted he would have ever forgotten investigating so important a piece of evidence. But even if he had done the work, and later forgotten about it, he said he would certainly have turned in a ?302? report covering something that important
In regard to the two Secret Service agents who were the other two individuals in the chain of custody
A declassified record, however, offers some corroboration for what CE 2011 reported about Secret Service Agents Johnsen and Rowley. A memo from the FBI?s Dallas field office dated 6/24/64 reported that, ?ON JUNE TWENTYFOUR INSTANT RICHARD E. JOHNSEN, AND JAMES ROWLEY, CHIEF ? ADVISED SA ELMER LEE TODD, WFO, THAT THEY WERE UNABLE TO INDENTIFY RIFLE BULLET C ONE
Hearsay is generally a term reserved for a courtroom I see no reason to call FBI reports little more than hearsay as well, but in this case there is evidence for wholesale fabrication on the part of the FBI as opposed to the research of Thompson It seems pretty likely that Wright was aware of the story by Josiah Thompson and one would assume would have protested if he had been misquoted
I am all for people being under oath, recorded or any manner of verifying statements But when there is a lack of any evidence to support a claim, simple interviews do have significance
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I never claimed it was a public statement. It has already been noted that Warren commissions lack of either Tomlinson, or Wright, being able to testify to the authenticity of CE 399 in front of them is not just a neutral position There is the 64 FBI memo claiming ?appears to be the same one? However, the FBI agent who is supposed to have gotten that admission, Bardwell Odum, and the Bureau?s own once-secret records, don?t back up #2011. Those records say only that neither Tomlinson nor Wright was able to identify the bullet in question, a comment that leaves the impression they saw no resemblance
Mr. Odum told Aguilar, ?I didn?t show it [#399] to anybody at Parkland. I didn?t have any bullet ? I don?t think I ever saw it even.? [Fig. 11] Unwilling to leave it at that, both authors paid Mr. Odum a visit in his Dallas home on November 21, 2002. The same alert, friendly man on the phone greeted us warmly and led us to a comfortable family room. To ensure no misunderstanding, we laid out before Mr. Odum all the relevant documents and read aloud from them.
Again, Mr. Odum said that he had never had any bullet related to the Kennedy assassination in his possession, whether during the FBI?s investigation in 1964 or at any other time. Asked whether he might have forgotten the episode, Mr. Odum remarked that he doubted he would have ever forgotten investigating so important a piece of evidence. But even if he had done the work, and later forgotten about it, he said he would certainly have turned in a ?302? report covering something that important
In regard to the two Secret Service agents who were the other two individuals in the chain of custody
A declassified record, however, offers some corroboration for what CE 2011 reported about Secret Service Agents Johnsen and Rowley. A memo from the FBI?s Dallas field office dated 6/24/64 reported that, ?ON JUNE TWENTYFOUR INSTANT RICHARD E. JOHNSEN, AND JAMES ROWLEY, CHIEF ? ADVISED SA ELMER LEE TODD, WFO, THAT THEY WERE UNABLE TO INDENTIFY RIFLE BULLET C ONE
Hearsay is generally a term reserved for a courtroom I see no reason to call FBI reports little more than hearsay as well, but in this case there is evidence for wholesale fabrication on the part of the FBI as opposed to the research of Thompson It seems pretty likely that Wright was aware of the story by Josiah Thompson and one would assume would have protested if he had been misquoted
I am all for people being under oath, recorded or any manner of verifying statements But when there is a lack of any evidence to support a claim, simple interviews do have significance
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I never claimed it was a public statement. It has already been noted that Warren commissions lack of either Tomlinson, or Wright, being to testify to authenticity in front of them is not just a neutral position There is the 64 FBI memo claiming ?appears to be the same one? However, the FBI agent who is supposed to have gotten that admission, Bardwell Odum, and the Bureau?s own once-secret records, don?t back up #2011. Those records say only that neither Tomlinson nor Wright was able to identify the bullet in question, a comment that leaves the impression they saw no resemblance
Mr. Odum told Aguilar, ?I didn?t show it [#399] to anybody at Parkland. I didn?t have any bullet ? I don?t think I ever saw it even.? [Fig. 11] Unwilling to leave it at that, both authors paid Mr. Odum a visit in his Dallas home on November 21, 2002. The same alert, friendly man on the phone greeted us warmly and led us to a comfortable family room. To ensure no misunderstanding, we laid out before Mr. Odum all the relevant documents and read aloud from them.
Again, Mr. Odum said that he had never had any bullet related to the Kennedy assassination in his possession, whether during the FBI?s investigation in 1964 or at any other time. Asked whether he might have forgotten the episode, Mr. Odum remarked that he doubted he would have ever forgotten investigating so important a piece of evidence. But even if he had done the work, and later forgotten about it, he said he would certainly have turned in a ?302? report covering something that important
In regard to the two Secret Service agents who were the other two individuals in the chain of custody
A declassified record, however, offers some corroboration for what CE 2011 reported about Secret Service Agents Johnsen and Rowley. A memo from the FBI?s Dallas field office dated 6/24/64 reported that, ?ON JUNE TWENTYFOUR INSTANT RICHARD E. JOHNSEN, AND JAMES ROWLEY, CHIEF ? ADVISED SA ELMER LEE TODD, WFO, THAT THEY WERE UNABLE TO INDENTIFY RIFLE BULLET C ONE
Hearsay is generally a term reserved for a courtroom I see no reason to call FBI reports little more than hearsay as well, but in this case there is evidence for wholesale fabrication on the part of the FBI as opposed to the research of Thompson It seems pretty likely that Wright was aware of the story by Josiah Thompson and one would assume would have protested if he had been misquoted
I am all for people being under oath, recorded or any manner of verifying statements But when there is a lack of any evidence to support a claim, simple interviews do have significance
Mr. Odum told Aguilar, ?I didn?t show it [#399] to anybody at Parkland. I didn?t have any bullet ? I don?t think I ever saw it even.?
Odum is supposed to have shown CE 399 to Tomlinson and Wright in mid-1964. However, Tomlinson is on record twice as saying that he was only shown a bullet once, and that was by SAC Shanklin one week after the assassination. So, unless Tomlinson and Odum both misremembered about the same event, there simply is no proof that Odum did in fact show a bullet to Tomlinson at any time.
Remarkably, no record seems to have survived about Shanklin showing a bullet to Tomlinson and Wright.
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Thanks Martin for additional info about Shanklin's role
I must admit I did not know that much about the issue coming into the discussion These boards can certainty push one's level of understanding beyond what it is likely to be without challenge from others
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That's not a statement made publicly. It's hearsay. Thompson claims that there were two witnesses there. However, both are now deceased and neither of them went on record to confirm Thompson's claim.
If You are going to Reject the Tink Thompson interviews which support his landmark "Six Seconds In Dallas", You must also be Rejecting the multitude of Interviews that Richard B. Trask did for his Trumpeted "Pictures Of The Pain". "Pictures Of The Pain" previously having been regarded as the Bible of JFK Assassination Research Material.
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I never claimed it was a public statement. It has already been noted that Warren commissions lack of either Tomlinson, or Wright, being to testify to authenticity in front of them is not just a neutral position There is the 64 FBI memo claiming ?appears to be the same one? However, the FBI agent who is supposed to have gotten that admission, Bardwell Odum, and the Bureau?s own once-secret records, don?t back up #2011. Those records say only that neither Tomlinson nor Wright was able to identify the bullet in question, a comment that leaves the impression they saw no resemblance
Matt, Contrary to what you believe, the "Bureau?s own once-secret records" and CE-2011 do not conflict with one another. They say essentially the same thing. That being that neither Tomlinson nor Wright could positively identify the bullet in question.
Mr. Odum told Aguilar, ?I didn?t show it [#399] to anybody at Parkland. I didn?t have any bullet ? I don?t think I ever saw it even.? [Fig. 11] Unwilling to leave it at that, both authors paid Mr. Odum a visit in his Dallas home on November 21, 2002. The same alert, friendly man on the phone greeted us warmly and led us to a comfortable family room. To ensure no misunderstanding, we laid out before Mr. Odum all the relevant documents and read aloud from them.
Again, Mr. Odum said that he had never had any bullet related to the Kennedy assassination in his possession, whether during the FBI?s investigation in 1964 or at any other time. Asked whether he might have forgotten the episode, Mr. Odum remarked that he doubted he would have ever forgotten investigating so important a piece of evidence. But even if he had done the work, and later forgotten about it, he said he would certainly have turned in a ?302? report covering something that important
When interviewed by Aguilar and Thompson, Odum was well in his 80s and over four decades had passed since his time investigating the assassination. I suggest to you that his memory was questionable at best. Anyway, it's of no real importance. If the memo had reported positive identifications of the bullet from Tomlinson and Wright then it might be worth the attention that it has received from CTs.
In regard to the two Secret Service agents who were the other two individuals in the chain of custody
A declassified record, however, offers some corroboration for what CE 2011 reported about Secret Service Agents Johnsen and Rowley. A memo from the FBI?s Dallas field office dated 6/24/64 reported that, ?ON JUNE TWENTYFOUR INSTANT RICHARD E. JOHNSEN, AND JAMES ROWLEY, CHIEF ? ADVISED SA ELMER LEE TODD, WFO, THAT THEY WERE UNABLE TO INDENTIFY RIFLE BULLET C ONE
Neither Johnsen nor Rowley had scratched their marks on the bullet when they had possession of it. That's why they were unable to positively identify it. If Johnsen and Rowley were needed to establish a chain of custody, then their respective letters would suffice. Johnsen's letter was attached to the envelope that contained the bullet that Elmer Todd handed over to Robert Frazier. Both Todd and Frazier placed their marks on the bullet. That mark placed by Todd enabled him to positively identify CE-399 as being the bullet that he received from Rowley. Frazier also positively identified the bullet while testifying under oath before the Warren Commission.
Hearsay is generally a term reserved for a courtroom I see no reason to call FBI reports little more than hearsay as well, but in this case there is evidence for wholesale fabrication on the part of the FBI as opposed to the research of Thompson It seems pretty likely that Wright was aware of the story by Josiah Thompson and one would assume would have protested if he had been misquoted
Investigative reports written by official law enforcement agents can hardly be equated with a book written years later by an author with a conspiratorial mindset.
I am all for people being under oath, recorded or any manner of verifying statements But when there is a lack of any evidence to support a claim, simple interviews do have significance
(https://i.imgur.com/CIn10To.png)
(https://i.imgur.com/wRgjQIf.png)
(https://i.imgur.com/ghmINDS.png)
(https://i.imgur.com/RRsiYig.png)
Mr. EISENBERG - Mr. Frazier, I now hand you Commission Exhibit 399, which, for the record, is a bullet, and also for the record, it is a bullet which was found in the Parkland Hospital following the assassination. Are you familiar with this exhibit?
Mr. FRAZIER - Yes, sir. This is a bullet which was delivered to me in the FBI laboratory on November 22, 1963 by Special Agent Elmer Todd of the FBI Washington Field Office.
Mr. EISENBERG - Does that have your mark on it?
Mr. FRAZIER - Yes, it does.
http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/russ/testimony/frazr1.htm
As you can see, in the case of CE-399, there really isn't a lack of evidence though, is there?
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If You are going to Reject the Tink Thompson interviews which support his landmark "Six Seconds In Dallas", You must also be Rejecting the multitude of Interviews that Richard B. Trask did for his Trumpeted "Pictures Of The Pain". "Pictures Of The Pain" previously having been regarded as the Bible of JFK Assassination Research Material.
I think that all of those interviews given years later are worth consideration. Even Tink Thompson's. However, one should be wary of attempting to build a case with them.
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I think that all of those interviews given years later are worth consideration. Even Tink Thompson's. However, one should be wary of attempting to build a case with them.
Thanks for clearing this up. You may Now proceed with your self proclaimed Cherry Picking research endeavors.
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Matt, Contrary to what you believe, the "Bureau?s own once-secret records" and CE-2011 do not conflict with one another. They say essentially the same thing. That being that neither Tomlinson nor Wright could positively identify the bullet in question.
When interviewed by Aguilar and Thompson, Odum was well in his 80s and over four decades had passed since his time investigating the assassination. I suggest to you that his memory was questionable at best. Anyway, it's of no real importance. If the memo had reported positive identifications of the bullet from Tomlinson and Wright then it might be worth the attention that it has received from CTs.
Neither Johnsen nor Rowley had scratched their marks on the bullet when they had possession of it. That's why they were unable to positively identify it. If Johnsen and Rowley were needed to establish a chain of custody, then their respective letters would suffice. Johnsen's letter was attached to the envelope that contained the bullet that Elmer Todd handed over to Robert Frazier. Both Todd and Frazier placed their marks on the bullet. That mark placed by Todd enabled him to positively identify CE-399 as being the bullet that he received from Rowley. Frazier also positively identified the bullet while testifying under oath before the Warren Commission.
Investigative reports written by official law enforcement agents can hardly be equated with a book written years later by an author with a conspiratorial mindset.
(https://i.imgur.com/CIn10To.png)
(https://i.imgur.com/wRgjQIf.png)
(https://i.imgur.com/ghmINDS.png)
(https://i.imgur.com/RRsiYig.png)
Mr. EISENBERG - Mr. Frazier, I now hand you Commission Exhibit 399, which, for the record, is a bullet, and also for the record, it is a bullet which was found in the Parkland Hospital following the assassination. Are you familiar with this exhibit?
Mr. FRAZIER - Yes, sir. This is a bullet which was delivered to me in the FBI laboratory on November 22, 1963 by Special Agent Elmer Todd of the FBI Washington Field Office.
Mr. EISENBERG - Does that have your mark on it?
Mr. FRAZIER - Yes, it does.
http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/russ/testimony/frazr1.htm
As you can see, in the case of CE-399, there really isn't a lack of evidence though, is there?
As you can see, in the case of CE-399, there really isn't a lack of evidence though, is there?
Oh yes, there isn't a lack of evidence. It just isn't the evidence you need to support your case.
What this evidence really shows is that Secret Service Agent Johnson received a bullet at Parkland Hospital from Wright, who said he had received it from Tomlinson. Johnson subsequently took a bullet to Washington where he gave it to his chief, Rowley, who then placed a bullet in an envelope and had Johnson write a little note about it. None of these four people involved could positively identify the bullet now in evidence as CE 399 as the bullet they had handled on 22/11/63.
Rowley then turned over the envelope, containing a bullet, to FBI agent Elmer Todd at either 6.50 PM or 8.50 PM (depending on which report you prefer), who apparently marked the bullet and gave it to Frazier.
Todd being the first one in the chain of custody who identified the bullet justifies the conclusion that the bullet now known as CE 399 started it's evidentiary life in Washington. There is not a shred of evidence that it is the same bullet as the one found by Tomlinson at Parkland Hospital.
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Tim I assume you give some priority to using verbatim in these cases we are discussing? Since we cannot be certain of the exact words that are said in reply to a specific question it is of course difficult to establish what verbatim actually was Aren't you concerned about the FBI prerogative of seemingly allowing themselves the option of paraphrasing, especially when they are given the exalted position of an institution of record? "Appears to be the same one' is different than simply saying they cannot positively identify it
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As you can see, in the case of CE-399, there really isn't a lack of evidence though, is there?
Oh yes, there isn't a lack of evidence. It just isn't the evidence you need to support your case.
What this evidence really shows is that Secret Service Agent Johnson received a bullet at Parkland Hospital from Wright, who said he had received it from Tomlinson. Johnson subsequently took a bullet to Washington where he gave it to his chief, Rowley, who then placed a bullet in an envelope and had Johnson write a little note about it. None of these four people involved could positively identify the bullet now in evidence as CE 399 as the bullet they had handled on 22/11/63.
The evidence is more than sufficient to support my case. It's doubtful that a chain of custody would be required to get the bullet admitted as evidence but if it were then Johnsen would be the first link in the chain. The letter that he attached to the envelope satisfies his link in the chain. Rowley's letter satisfies his link. Every link in the chain would not be required to positively identify the bullet. Good luck trying to convince a judge otherwise.
Rowley then turned over the envelope, containing a bullet, to FBI agent Elmer Todd at either 6.50 PM or 8.50 PM (depending on which report you prefer), who apparently marked the bullet and gave it to Frazier.
Actually, neither. 8:50 PM was the time that Todd received the bullet from Rowley.
(https://i.imgur.com/DUseR8g.jpg)
Frazier would have received it from Todd a bit later. He scribbled a time of 7:30 PM but he could have done so a day or two after the fact. 7:30 was likely not accurate. It was not the only inaccurate time that Frazier marked down for evidence received by him.
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Tim I assume you give some priority to using verbatim in these cases we are discussing? Since we cannot be certain of the exact words that are said in reply to a specific question it is of course difficult to establish what verbatim actually was Aren't you concerned about the FBI prerogative of seemingly allowing themselves the option of paraphrasing, especially when they are given the exalted position of an institution of record? "Appears to be the same one' is different than simply saying they cannot positively identify it
Matt, let's look at what's contained in them verbatum.
From 6/20/64 Airtel to Director, FBI from SAC, Dallas:
https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=59607#relPageId=29&tab=page
"For information WFO, neither DARRELL C. TOMLINSON, who found bullet at Parkland Hospital, nor O.P.WRIGHT, Personnel officer, Parkland Hospital, who obtained bullet from TOMLINSON and gave to Special Agent RICHARD E. JOHNSON, Secret Service, at Dallas 11/22/63, can identify bullet."
//////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////
From CE-2011:
https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=11653#relPageId=3&tab=page
"Tomlinson stated it appears to be the same one he found on a hospital carriage at Parkland Hospital on November 22, 1963, but he cannot positively identify the bullet as the one he found and showed to O.P. Wright."
..............
"He(O.P. Wright) advised he could not positively identify C1 as being the same bullet which was found on November 22, 1963."
As you can see, they say essentially the same thing. That being that neither Tomlinson nor Wright could positively identify the bullet in question.
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The evidence is more than sufficient to support my case. It's doubtful that a chain of custody would be required to get the bullet admitted as evidence but if it were then Johnsen would be the first link in the chain. The letter that he attached to the envelope satisfies his link in the chain. Rowley's letter satisfies his link. Every link in the chain would not be required to positively identify the bullet. Good luck trying to convince a judge otherwise.
Actually, neither. 8:50 PM was the time that Todd received the bullet from Rowley.
(https://i.imgur.com/DUseR8g.jpg)
Frazier would have received it from Todd a bit later. He scribbled a time of 7:30 PM but he could have done so a day or two after the fact. 7:30 was likely not accurate. It was not the only inaccurate time that Frazier marked down for evidence received by him.
The evidence is more than sufficient to support my case. It's doubtful that a chain of custody would be required to get the bullet admitted as evidence
And what exactly do you think that means? Is getting admitted as evidence the same as being conclusive proof of something? I doubt it.
A solid chain of custody is a safeguard against evidence tampering. There is no other reason for that requirement. A chain of custody might not be required to get a piece of evidence admitted but it sure as hell is vital for the presentation of that evidence to the jury.
but if it were then Johnsen would be the first link in the chain. The letter that he attached to the envelope satisfies his link in the chain.
Depends on the circumstances.... if Johnson just wrote the note and Rowley attached it to the envelope, the note means nothing at all.
The letter that he attached to the envelope satisfies his link in the chain. Rowley's letter satisfies his link.
No it doesn't.
Every link in the chain would not be required to positively identify the bullet. Good luck trying to convince a judge otherwise.
Why in the world would I want to convince a Judge otherwise? As a defense lawyer I would lodge a token objection and then destroy the evidence at trial... It's a far better strategy!
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Matt, let's look at what's contained in them verbatum.
From 6/20/64 Airtel to Director, FBI from SAC, Dallas:
https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=59607#relPageId=29&tab=page
"For information WFO, neither DARRELL C. TOMLINSON, who found bullet at Parkland Hospital, nor O.P.WRIGHT, Personnel officer, Parkland Hospital, who obtained bullet from TOMLINSON and gave to Special Agent RICHARD E. JOHNSON, Secret Service, at Dallas 11/22/63, can identify bullet."
//////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////
From CE-2011:
https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=11653#relPageId=3&tab=page
"Tomlinson stated it appears to be the same one he found on a hospital carriage at Parkland Hospital on November 22, 1963, but he cannot positively identify the bullet as the one he found and showed to O.P. Wright."
..............
"He(O.P. Wright) advised he could not positively identify C1 as being the same bullet which was found on November 22, 1963."
As you can see, they say essentially the same thing. That being that neither Tomlinson nor Wright could positively identify the bullet in question.
Yes, essentially the same thing... except for Tomlinson saying "it appears to be the same one he found on a hospital carriage at Parkland Hospital" which is what the WC needed and which I don't believe Tomlinson ever said to anyone. The airtel from SAC Dallas is pretty clear on the subject. Whoever wrote CE 2011 (any idea who wrote it?) didn't get the information about "appears to be the same one" from the airtel, so where did it come from?
Odum denied ever showing the bullet to Tomlinson (like CE 2011 claims) and the latter is on record twice saying that he was only shown a bullet once, by SAC Shanklin about a week after the murder.
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One missed completely and hit the pavement behind the car, possibly due to accidentally hitting a traffic signal first
Let me get this straight. You think this shot hit the pavement behind the car, and also hit the curb that resulted in Tague's injury?
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That is Ken Rahn's story I believe
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Let me get this straight. You think this shot hit the pavement behind the car, and also hit the curb that resulted in Tague's injury?
These two things aren't contradictory, the curb is made of pavement and is behind the car?
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These two things aren't contradictory, the curb is made of pavement and is behind the car?
No, James, the curb is not part of the pavement. that's why it's called the curb.
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No, James, the curb is not part of the pavement. that's why it's called the curb.
Pavement is a material, the sidewalk is also made of pavement
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Pavement is a material, the sidewalk is also made of pavement
Therefore, the pavement is made of material. Thank you. What intellect. :-\
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But Tague's curb strike was not behind the car at the time of the alleged first shot.
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No, James, the curb is not part of the pavement. that's why it's called the curb.
Ray,
I've seen curbs made out of asphalt.
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Matt: Thanks for posting this. For me it's new and very interesting information. However, I'm not sure I understand the following passage from the article:
"Two of the corpsmen left and returned sometime later with three varying sized pieces of President Kennedy?s skull bones. In addition, they brought back in an envelope a spent misshapen bullet which they had found on the back floor of the ?Queen Mary?[sic] where they had found the pieces of skull bones. The bullet and pieces of skull were given to Dr. Jim Humes."
What are pieces of the president's skull and a bullet doing on the back floor of the Queen Mary? Of course, this makes zero sense if you believe the ridiculous theory that Oswald did it alone. I believe the fatal head shot came from the right front and exited the lower right of the president's skull. Maybe I need to expand my thinking about the origin of this shot since I'm having trouble understanding how skull matter and a bullet could end up in the follow-up car.
What about the FBI letter the night of the assassination from Belmont to Tolson? Belmont writes: ?I told SAC Shanklin that Secret Service had one of the bullets that struck President Kennedy and the other is lodged behind the President?s ear and we are arranging to get both of these.?
Don't forget about Dennis David's testimony of being ordered to type up a receipt for bullet fragments by a Secret Service agent.
Seems in this case there are multiple rifles, different ammunition and nothing seems to make any real sense...
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Ray,
I've seen curbs made out of asphalt.
You may well have. but it is still a "curb". So called because it "curbs" the pavement.
Definition
noun
1.
Also, British, kerb. a rim, especially of joined stones or concrete, along a street or roadway, forming an edge for a sidewalk.
2.
anything that restrains or controls; a restraint; check.
3.
an enclosing framework or border.
Besides we are talking about the curb on Elm Street, which wasn't made of asphalt, but concrete.
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There was considerable interest in the remaining bullet fragments still lodged in Gov Connally until the day he died.
I see that we have a forensic pathologist wannabe here on the board who believes he has expert observation regarding gunshots and bullet paths....like he was there at the Parkland ER...not
Unfortunately, a real one couldn't get a chance to review exactly what we were told by the authorities.
Removal of those fragments and metal analysis/comparison could have answered much.
When Connally died, forensic pathologist Dr. Cyril Wecht and the Assassination Archives and Research Center petitioned Attorney General Janet Reno to recover the remaining bullet fragments from Connally's body, contending that the fragments would disprove the Warren Commission's single-bullet, single-gunman conclusion. The Justice Department replied that it "...would have no legal authority to recover the fragments unless Connally's family gave [it] permission." Connally's family refused permission.[41]
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Connally#Death
Go figure that one
JF
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There was considerable interest in the remaining bullet fragments still lodged in Gov Connally until the day he died.
I see that we have a forensic pathologist wannabe here on the board who believes he has expert observation regarding gunshots and bullet paths....like he was there at the Parkland ER...not
Unfortunately, a real one couldn't get a chance to review exactly what we were told by the authorities.
Removal of those fragments and metal analysis/comparison could have answered much.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Connally#Death
Go figure that one
JF
What could the removal and metal analysis/comparison of those two remaining fragments have answered that the four fragments that were removed could not?
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What could the removal and metal analysis/comparison of those two remaining fragments have answered that the four fragments that were removed could not?
We'll never know will we?
Lest the Connally family become angry.
The NARA found some loose fragments found in the front seat of the limo.
"Inconclusive" was the verdict in 2000.
http://aarclibrary.org/publib/jfk/other/fragment_tests/NaraFragmentTests.pdf
In 1997, former President Gerald R. Ford, a Warren Commission member, admitted that he wanted a change to show that the bullet entered Kennedy at the back of his neck rather than in his uppermost back, as the commission originally wrote. According to the NY Times article, "Mr. Ford's change strengthened the commission's conclusion that a single bullet passed through Kennedy and wounded Gov. John B. Connally, -- a crucial element in the commission's finding that Lee Harvey Oswald was the sole gunman." According to Robert Morningstar, an assastionation researcher, This is the most significant lie in the whole Warren Commission report. [10]
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_F._Kennedy_autopsy#The_gunshot_wound_in_the_back
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Matt: Thanks for posting this. For me it's new and very interesting information. However, I'm not sure I understand the following passage from the article:
"Two of the corpsmen left and returned sometime later with three varying sized pieces of President Kennedy?s skull bones. In addition, they brought back in an envelope a spent misshapen bullet which they had found on the back floor of the ?Queen Mary?[sic] where they had found the pieces of skull bones. The bullet and pieces of skull were given to Dr. Jim Humes."
What are pieces of the president's skull and a bullet doing on the back floor of the Queen Mary? Of course, this makes zero sense if you believe the ridiculous theory that Oswald did it alone. I believe the fatal head shot came from the right front and exited the lower right of the president's skull. Maybe I need to expand my thinking about the origin of this shot since I'm having trouble understanding how skull matter and a bullet could end up in the follow-up car.
What about the FBI letter the night of the assassination from Belmont to Tolson? Belmont writes: ?I told SAC Shanklin that Secret Service had one of the bullets that struck President Kennedy and the other is lodged behind the President?s ear and we are arranging to get both of these.?
Don't forget about Dennis David's testimony of being ordered to type up a receipt for bullet fragments by a Secret Service agent.
Seems in this case there are multiple rifles, different ammunition and nothing seems to make any real sense...
Thanks for that Jim, I had missed it up until now. Yes I never understood the reference to Queen Mary So many good questions with so few answers
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CE-399 ? O.P. Wright said that bullet had a pointed tip ! As per the Edwin Walker Bullet supposedly fired at him by Lee Harvey Oswald , CE 573 " Walker Bullet" NOT the REAL Bullet ?
Walker to FBI:
The bullet before your select committee called the Walker bullet is not the Walker bullet. It is not the bullet that was fired at me and taken out of my house by the Dallas City Police on April 10 , 1963. The bullet you have was not gotten from me or taken out of my house by anyone at anytime." Walker then sends a mailogram to Blakey that the bullet recovered was nothing more than a hunk of lead that didn't even resemble a bullet. I saw the hunk of lead , picked up by the policeman in my house, and I took it from him and I inspected it carefully. There is no mistake. There has been a substitution for the bullet fired at me and taken out of my house . Walker did not think it was Oswald who fired at him.
Check this out peelingtheonion.blogspot.com/2013/05/the-jfk-conundrum-major-general-edwin.html
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Mike Awesome info General Walker will now have to be identified as a conspiracy theorist
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Mike Awesome info General Walker will now have to be identified as a conspiracy theorist
Matt, the HSCA did not display the Walker Bullet on TV. The bullet that Walker saw on TV and described as looking as if it had been unfired was CE-399, not CE-573. Walker was obviously confused.
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Matt, the HSCA did not display the Walker Bullet on TV. The bullet that Walker saw on TV and described as looking as if it had been unfired was CE-399, not CE-573. Walker was obviously confused.
Here is a photograph of CE573 It looks like a bullet Walker said it did not even look like a bullet Also not sure how you know his source for seeing the bullet was TV
https://www.history-matters.com/archive/jfk/wc/wcvols/wh17/pdf/WH17_CE_573.pdf
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Here is a photograph of CE573 It looks like a bullet Walker said it did not even look like a bullet Also not sure how you know his source for seeing the bullet was TV
https://www.history-matters.com/archive/jfk/wc/wcvols/wh17/pdf/WH17_CE_573.pdf
Here is what Walker wrote to Blakey of the HSCA;
"The bullet used and pictured on the TV by US Senate G.Robert Blakey Committee on Assassinations is a ridiculous substitute for a bullet completely mutilated by such obstruction, baring no resemblance to any unfired bullet in shape or form.
I saw the hunk of lead, picked up by a policeman in my house, and I took it from him and I inspected it carefully. There is no mistake. There has been a substitution for the bullet fired by Oswald and taken out of my house."
Did you get that? He was saying that the bullet displayed by Blakey on TV didn't look like it had even ever been fired. Does CE-573 look like an unfired bullet? No, of course not. The bullet that Blakey displayed on TV was CE-399, not CE-573.
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Here is what Walker wrote to Blakey of the HSCA;
"The bullet used and pictured on the TV by US Senate G.Robert Blakey Committee on Assassinations is a ridiculous substitute for a bullet completely mutilated by such obstruction, baring no resemblance to any unfired bullet in shape or form.
I saw the hunk of lead, picked up by a policeman in my house, and I took it from him and I inspected it carefully. There is no mistake. There has been a substitution for the bullet fired by Oswald and taken out of my house."
Did you get that? He was saying that the bullet displayed by Blakey on TV didn't look like it had even ever been fired. Does CE-573 look like an unfired bullet? No, of course not. The bullet that Blakey displayed on TV was CE-399, not CE-573.
So you are saying CE-399 was never fired?
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When did Blakey display CE399 on TV?
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Notice that the lead post.... https://whowhatwhy.org/2017/10/06/navy-doctor-bullet-found-jfks-limousine-never-reported/
...was bypassed and straw just flew out of the barn all over the place about CE 399 and it's alleged various fragments.
Photographs exist showing nameless suits scouring the plaza and knoll area for what? Easter eggs?
(https://www.jfkassassinationgallery.com/albums/userpics/10001/normal_AllenUnger.jpg)