JFK Assassination Forum

JFK Assassination Discussion & Debate => JFK Assassination Discussion & Debate => Topic started by: Craig Coleman on April 03, 2018, 12:03:58 AM

Title: Did the CIA assassinate JFK?
Post by: Craig Coleman on April 03, 2018, 12:03:58 AM
The CIA did assassinate JFK.

There are clear motives: the failed Bay of Pigs operation and terminated plans to kill Fidel Castro. JFK was first mad at the CIA because of the Bay of Pigs and he never forgave the agency for the public embarrassment. He threatened to smash the CIA into a thousand pieces and scatter it into the wind. On top of this, there are contracts between the CIA and organized crime to assassinate Castro. JFK immediately terminated these plans and sent the FBI and law enforcement to break up the CIA training camps. There is no doubt that the two had growing conflict. After the assassination, the Warren Commission sat for ten months and never hired any investigators and relied on the FBI and CIA to investigate. To no surprise, they found themselves innocent. The agency never even disclosed information about the previous plans to kill Castro to the Commission. Let's not forget a possible connection between the CIA and Lee Harvey Oswald. Around September-October of 1963, Oswald went to Mexico City and attempted to get visas from the Soviet and Cuban embassies but he failed. The agency denied knowing about this trip but documents show that they did have pre-assassination knowledge. The CIA cannot be trusted. Based on their quick response, cover-ups, and withholding of important information from the Warren Commission, the CIA obviously has something to hide.
Title: Re: Did the CIA assassinate JFK?
Post by: Walt Cakebread on April 03, 2018, 12:47:14 AM
The CIA did assassinate JFK.

There are clear motives: the failed Bay of Pigs operation and terminated plans to kill Fidel Castro. JFK was first mad at the CIA because of the Bay of Pigs and he never forgave the agency for the public embarrassment. He threatened to smash the CIA into a thousand pieces and scatter it into the wind. On top of this, there are contracts between the CIA and organized crime to assassinate Castro. JFK immediately terminated these plans and sent the FBI and law enforcement to break up the CIA training camps. There is no doubt that the two had growing conflict. After the assassination, the Warren Commission sat for ten months and never hired any investigators and relied on the FBI and CIA to investigate. To no surprise, they found themselves innocent. The agency never even disclosed information about the previous plans to kill Castro to the Commission. Let's not forget a possible connection between the CIA and Lee Harvey Oswald. Around September-October of 1963, Oswald went to Mexico City and attempted to get visas from the Soviet and Cuban embassies but he failed. The agency denied knowing about this trip but documents show that they did have pre-assassination knowledge. The CIA cannot be trusted. Based on their quick response, cover-ups, and withholding of important information from the Warren Commission, the CIA obviously has something to hide.


sent the FBI and law enforcement to break up the CIA training camps.

JFK knew that Hoover sanctioned the illegal training camps , so he could not send the FBI to raid the camps....He handed the job to to the ATF....and at the last minute he told Hoover to send FBI agents along in support of the ATF.....
Title: Re: Did the CIA assassinate JFK?
Post by: Paul May on April 03, 2018, 01:28:17 AM
Wow, what an original subject for a thread.
Title: Re: Did the CIA assassinate JFK?
Post by: Craig Coleman on April 03, 2018, 01:54:56 AM
sent the FBI and law enforcement to break up the CIA training camps.

JFK knew that Hoover sanctioned the illegal training camps , so he could not send the FBI to raid the camps....He handed the job to to the ATF....and at the last minute he told Hoover to send FBI agents along in support of the ATF.....

Either way, he had them shut down and stopped any attempts to kill Castro. Just more of a reason to get rid of Kennedy.
Title: Re: Did the CIA assassinate JFK?
Post by: Craig Coleman on April 03, 2018, 01:57:32 AM
Wow, what an original subject for a thread.

Yes, it is.
Title: Re: Did the CIA assassinate JFK?
Post by: Paul May on April 03, 2018, 02:37:15 AM
I?ll answer the thread question in one word:  no.
Title: Re: Did the CIA assassinate JFK?
Post by: Keyvan Shahrdar on April 03, 2018, 04:28:24 AM
Can the CIA cover up the assasination from the Generals, Congress, FBI?
I don?t think so.

The bay of pigs is not a good enough reason to assasinate a president.  If the Mafia did it, the monsters involved would have been killed. If Rougue elements of the CIA did it, they would have been killed.

The only group capable of pulling this off are rogue Generals who had the means and expertise to pull this off.
Lemnitzer, LeMay, Lansdale, and LBJ.  These four plus a small group of military assasins pulled this off.

Title: Re: Did the CIA assassinate JFK?
Post by: John Iacoletti on April 03, 2018, 04:31:30 AM
Don't mind Paul.  He's the resident grumpy old man who frequently comes on here to discuss what a waste of time it is to come on here and discuss things.  Because history books.

And get off his lawn too.
Title: Re: Did the CIA assassinate JFK?
Post by: Craig Coleman on April 03, 2018, 01:55:42 PM
Can the CIA cover up the assasination from the Generals, Congress, FBI?
I don?t think so.

The bay of pigs is not a good enough reason to assasinate a president.  If the Mafia did it, the monsters involved would have been killed. If Rougue elements of the CIA did it, they would have been killed.

The only group capable of pulling this off are rogue Generals who had the means and expertise to pull this off.
Lemnitzer, LeMay, Lansdale, and LBJ.  These four plus a small group of military assasins pulled this off.

The CIA was given the responsibility of investigating, which easily allows them to cover it up and declare their innocence. Why would they have lied about knowledge of Oswald's trip if they had no connection to him? They continued to lie when they didn't tell the Commission about the Castro assassination plans. Seems a little suspicious to me. What evidence is there to prove the rogue Generals killed Kennedy?
Title: Re: Did the CIA assassinate JFK?
Post by: Richard Smith on April 03, 2018, 01:57:59 PM
Don't mind Paul.  He's the resident grumpy old man who frequently comes on here to discuss what a waste of time it is to come on here and discuss things.  Because history books.

And get off his lawn too.

This is where you tell us no one is alleging a conspiracy.  It's all in our minds that you kooks believe that everyone with the possible exception of Oswald was involved.  Thus, a strawman to suggest that there is no evidence that the CIA was involved in the assassination. 
Title: Re: Did the CIA assassinate JFK?
Post by: John Iacoletti on April 03, 2018, 04:52:39 PM
This is where you tell us no one is alleging a conspiracy.  It's all in our minds that you kooks believe that everyone with the possible exception of Oswald was involved.  Thus, a strawman to suggest that there is no evidence that the CIA was involved in the assassination.

And now meet resident grumpy old man the second, who will insist that there is a "mountain of evidence" against Oswald, without ever actually specifying what it is, because he's too busy making up vast conspiracy scenarios to argue against.
Title: Re: Did the CIA assassinate JFK?
Post by: Walt Cakebread on April 03, 2018, 05:01:08 PM
Either way, he had them shut down and stopped any attempts to kill Castro. Just more of a reason to get rid of Kennedy.

True....  JFK did have the camps raided.....   He had no control over those training camps that Hoover sanctioned.   But at the same time that he was having those camps shut down he and Bobby were controlling other camps that they sanctioned.

It doesn't take much imagination to imagine J. Edgar Hoover's rage at being forced to send his agents along in support of the ATF when they raided the camps that Hoover was supporting.
Title: Re: Did the CIA assassinate JFK?
Post by: Jack Trojan on April 03, 2018, 08:16:31 PM
Yes, the LNer shills are always the 1st to crawl out of the woodwork to ridicule your OP.  If the JFK assassination was a coup d'etat, then of course the CIA was an integral part. They were coup experts. Only the LNers don't think this was a conspiracy and they resort to ad homs because CT=kook. But that's just how your hard core commie shill operates.  ;)

Here it is in a nutshell for you LNers:

This was an ordinary coup d'etat. Do you actually believe the US was incapable of a coup in 63? There were only 3 major players required to pull it off: Dulles, Hoover and Johnson. Nixon called them "animals" and they all had motives to at least comply with a coup.

Allen Dulles was director of the CIA and an American Nazi at the time. He was the architect of the coup because JFK threw him under the bus over the BOPs fiasco. Simple as that. What was he going to do, go quietly into the night? But what actually sealed JFK's fate was threatening to dismantle the CIA. That brought James Angleton into the fray, who was BFF with Dulles and happened to have salacious photo leverage over Hoover at the time. Hoover was the original mob boss then who hated the Kennedys, especially Bobby who was hell bent on attacking the mob and knew of Hoover's mob connections. Hoover didn't need much persuasion to go along with the coup. These were desperate times for these leaders. Which brings us to Johnson as the last piece of the puzzle. He had every reason to go along because he was faced with the choice of going to jail for his various criminal connections or be complicit in a coup and become POTUS. You do the math.

Oswald was a singleton agent drawn from the fake defector program to be the patsy. Thomas Arthur Vallee was Plan A in Chicago, Oswald was Plan B in Dallas. The fake defector program was ran by..surprise, surprise, James Jesus Angleton who was director of CIA counter-intel at the time.

All the other players in the coup were selected underlings, such as SS limo driver Greer, Dr. Humes, Capt. Fritz and a few more DPD. Hoover did the most work to make the coup happen. He used the FBI, SS, DPD and the mob as the "cleaners" to drive the narrative that there was a single LN shooter. The CIA set up Oswald as the patsy and organized the hit.

In response to your OP, yes the CIA was involved in assassinating JFK. The architect of the coup, Dulles, coincidentally became a member of the WC who determined that LHO acted alone. Imagine that. He's pictured here 2nd from the right. Who do you think was running that show?

(http://www.readclip.com/images/WC.jpg)

The big question is why LNers defend the conspirators in favor of the improbable idea that Oswald was a lone nut assassin in a perfect storm?
Title: Re: Did the CIA assassinate JFK?
Post by: Walt Cakebread on April 04, 2018, 01:10:33 AM
The architect of the coup, Dulles, coincidentally became a member of the WC who determined that LHO acted alone. Imagine that.

This alone tells me the WC was a hoax. The CIA would immediately know anything the commission had in the pipeline that could pose a threat to them. Amazing LBJ got away with it.


LBJ got away with murder simply because we Americans had been petrified with fear of nuclear war in the autumn of 1962.
The evil, cunning LBJ ( Lyin Bastroid Johnson) calculated that if he made it appear that the communists were the killers us pissants would let him skip quietly away by  suggesting that the Russians were behind the murder, but we would risk nuclear war if we confronted them.....and since Lee Oswald was dead  we could simply blame everything on the arch villain Lee Harrrrrvey Ossssswald  ( Booooo, Hissss)
Title: Re: Did the CIA assassinate JFK?
Post by: Walt Cakebread on April 04, 2018, 01:37:42 AM
Yes, the LNer shills are always the 1st to crawl out of the woodwork to ridicule your OP.  If the JFK assassination was a coup d'etat, then of course the CIA was an integral part. They were coup experts. Only the LNers don't think this was a conspiracy and they resort to ad homs because CT=kook. But that's just how your hard core commie shill operates.  ;)

Here it is in a nutshell for you LNers:

This was an ordinary coup d'etat. Do you actually believe the US was incapable of a coup in 63? There were only 3 major players required to pull it off: Dulles, Hoover and Johnson. Nixon called them "animals" and they all had motives to at least comply with a coup.

Allen Dulles was director of the CIA and an American Nazi at the time. He was the architect of the coup because JFK threw him under the bus over the BOPs fiasco. Simple as that. What was he going to do, go quietly into the night? But what actually sealed JFK's fate was threatening to dismantle the CIA. That brought James Angleton into the fray, who was BFF with Dulles and happened to have salacious photo leverage over Hoover at the time. Hoover was the original mob boss then who hated the Kennedys, especially Bobby who was hell bent on attacking the mob and knew of Hoover's mob connections. Hoover didn't need much persuasion to go along with the coup. These were desperate times for these leaders. Which brings us to Johnson as the last piece of the puzzle. He had every reason to go along because he was faced with the choice of going to jail for his various criminal connections or be complicit in a coup and become POTUS. You do the math.

Oswald was a singleton agent drawn from the fake defector program to be the patsy. Thomas Arthur Vallee was Plan A in Chicago, Oswald was Plan B in Dallas. The fake defector program was ran by..surprise, surprise, James Jesus Angleton who was director of CIA counter-intel at the time.

All the other players in the coup were selected underlings, such as SS limo driver Greer, Dr. Humes, Capt. Fritz and a few more DPD. Hoover did the most work to make the coup happen. He used the FBI, SS, DPD and the mob as the "cleaners" to drive the narrative that there was a single LN shooter. The CIA set up Oswald as the patsy and organized the hit.

In response to your OP, yes the CIA was involved in assassinating JFK. The architect of the coup, Dulles, coincidentally became a member of the WC who determined that LHO acted alone. Imagine that. He's pictured here 2nd from the right. Who do you think was running that show?

(http://www.readclip.com/images/WC.jpg)

The big question is why LNers defend the conspirators in favor of the improbable idea that Oswald was a lone nut assassin in a perfect storm?

The big question is why LNers defend the conspirators in favor of the improbable idea that Oswald was a lone nut assassin in a perfect storm?

I believe part of the reason some LNers defend the BS tale is because of their egotistical arrogance....They think that they are sooo smart and would be devastated with embarrassment if it was shown that they are not very smart and in reality they have been colossal gullible suckers .....Richard Smith fits perfectly in this group
Title: Re: Did the CIA assassinate JFK?
Post by: Richard Smith on April 04, 2018, 03:36:58 PM
And now meet resident grumpy old man the second, who will insist that there is a "mountain of evidence" against Oswald, without ever actually specifying what it is, because he's too busy making up vast conspiracy scenarios to argue against.

Yes, I'm the one making up vast conspiracy claims in a thread titled "Did the CIA assassinate JFK"?  LOL.  You are really unhinged.  And you are here night and day for years, but don't know the evidence against Oswald?  I guess it hasn't been laid out in excruciating detail in numerous official investigations, books etc.  You need me to go through all again so you can exercise your compulsion disorder with the same song and dance rebuttals.    No thanks.
Title: Re: Did the CIA assassinate JFK?
Post by: Steve M. Galbraith on April 04, 2018, 05:58:34 PM
Yes, I'm the one making up vast conspiracy claims in a thread titled "Did the CIA assassinate JFK"?  LOL.  You are really unhinged.  And you are here night and day for years, but don't know the evidence against Oswald?  I guess it hasn't been laid out in excruciating detail in numerous official investigations, books etc.  You need me to go through all again so you can exercise your compulsion disorder with the same song and dance rebuttals.    No thanks.

If only there was, let me suggest off the wall, a movie that showed these crazy conspiracy theories we believe are being disseminated.

I dunno, maybe something titled, "John F. Kennedy"? Or something along those lines. Maybe just use his initials?

But darn it, no, we don't have anything to point to that indicates that such ideas are out there.


Title: Re: Did the CIA assassinate JFK?
Post by: Richard Smith on April 04, 2018, 08:19:03 PM
If only there was, let me suggest off the wall, a movie that showed these crazy conspiracy theories we believe are being disseminated.

I dunno, maybe something titled, "John F. Kennedy"? Or something along those lines. Maybe just use his initials?

But darn it, no, we don't have anything to point to that indicates that such ideas are out there.

Yes, where do we keep coming up with the idea that anyone is suggesting a conspiracy (John's alleged strawman)?  I mean just look at that sinister picture Jack posted of all those white guys in ties like (cue sinister music) Gerald Ford with the notation:  "The big question is why LNers defend the conspirators in favor of the improbable idea that Oswald was a lone nut assassin in a perfect storm?"  He could be suggesting a gathering for lunch or something unrelated to the JFK assassination but he just decide to share on the JFK ASSASSINATION forum.
Title: Re: Did the CIA assassinate JFK?
Post by: John Iacoletti on April 04, 2018, 10:08:28 PM
Yes, I'm the one making up vast conspiracy claims in a thread titled "Did the CIA assassinate JFK"?  LOL.  You are really unhinged.  And you are here night and day for years, but don't know the evidence against Oswald?  I guess it hasn't been laid out in excruciating detail in numerous official investigations, books etc.  You need me to go through all again so you can exercise your compulsion disorder with the same song and dance rebuttals.    No thanks.

Who do you think you're fooling?  You won't go through the evidence because it doesn't actually support the conclusions that you have come to.  Discussing the details of the evidence is like kryptonite to LNers.
Title: Re: Did the CIA assassinate JFK?
Post by: John Iacoletti on April 04, 2018, 10:21:16 PM
Your strawmen are legendary, Richard.  Just to give you the most recent example, somebody asked how a ring in a cup is evidence of murder (short answer: it's not), and you go off on a rant about kooks thinking that conspirators planted a ring to incriminate Oswald.

Which is how you respond to every question about the reliability or relevance of things that are claimed to be evidence against Oswald.
Title: Re: Did the CIA assassinate JFK?
Post by: Bill Brown on April 05, 2018, 09:49:36 AM
Discussing the details of the evidence is like kryptonite to LNers.

Yet, you've admitted to having no evidence which proves that someone other than Lee Oswald killed Kennedy or Tippit.  If one were to put a gun to your head, you'd admit fully that you believe Oswald murdered two people that day.  You're just an argumentative fool.
Title: Re: Did the CIA assassinate JFK?
Post by: Walt Cakebread on April 05, 2018, 12:58:15 PM
Yet, you've admitted to having no evidence which proves that someone other than Lee Oswald killed Kennedy or Tippit.  If one were to put a gun to your head, you'd admit fully that you believe Oswald murdered two people that day.  You're just an argumentative fool.

In reality there has been a lot of evidence presented that indicates that Lee Oswald never killed anybody on 11/22/63.....You, Billy Bob simply lack the balls or the brains to open your eyes to the evidence.

If one were to put a gun to your head, you'd admit fully that you believe Oswald murdered two people that day.

For once you are probably right Billy Bob......Very few people would refuse to say whatever a gun wielding nut would demand they should say.    This is the reason that torture is unreliable......
Title: Re: Did the CIA assassinate JFK?
Post by: Richard Smith on April 05, 2018, 02:21:54 PM
Your strawmen are legendary, Richard.  Just to give you the most recent example, somebody asked how a ring in a cup is evidence of murder (short answer: it's not), and you go off on a rant about kooks thinking that conspirators planted a ring to incriminate Oswald.

Which is how you respond to every question about the reliability or relevance of things that are claimed to be evidence against Oswald.

Oswald's ring is probative of Oswald's guilt when viewed in context with the totality of evidence and circumstances.  That has been explained multiple times now.  The problem is not with the explanation (accepted by historians) but your dishonest approach to this case.  Attempting to set the ring apart from the totality of evidence against Oswald, as though it is a completely independent event of his other actions, is just an Internet kooks attempt to play defense attorney.  That is beyond my power to correct.
Title: Re: Did the CIA assassinate JFK?
Post by: John Iacoletti on April 05, 2018, 05:15:12 PM
Yet, you've admitted to having no evidence which proves that someone other than Lee Oswald killed Kennedy or Tippit.

Or any good reason to believe that Oswald killed Kennedy or Tippit either.

Quote
  If one were to put a gun to your head, you'd admit fully that you believe Oswald murdered two people that day.

You're not any better at mindreading me than you are at mindreading Oswald.  But I'm not surprised that this is your MO, because your whole case relies on assumptions and speculation.
Title: Re: Did the CIA assassinate JFK?
Post by: John Iacoletti on April 05, 2018, 05:19:14 PM
Oswald's ring is probative of Oswald's guilt when viewed in context with the totality of evidence and circumstances.  That has been explained multiple times now.

Repeating a fallacious argument over and over again doesn't make it sound.  The ring is probative of nothing.  It's padding your case with non-evidence.

Quote
  The problem is not with the explanation (accepted by historians) but your dishonest approach to this case.  Attempting to set the ring apart from the totality of evidence against Oswald, as though it is a completely independent event of his other actions, is just an Internet kooks attempt to play defense attorney.  That is beyond my power to correct.

No, it's an Internet kook's attempt to play prosecuting attorney:  assuming a causal effect between two events merely because you want there to be one, and attempting to use it as rhetoric to prop up a weak argument.
Title: Re: Did the CIA assassinate JFK?
Post by: John Iacoletti on April 05, 2018, 08:11:09 PM
A ludicrous comparison but it highlights the lack of CTer logic.  You should be embarrassed.  What you and your dishonest sidekick are suggesting is that leaving a wedding ring with Marina was just a common, ordinary event.

You're the one who should be embarrassed.  Something doesn't automatically become relevant just because you think he killed somebody later.  Even if it's unusual behavior.  If Oswald had made decaf instant coffee that morning instead of regular would you also consider that "probative of guilt"?  Actually you probably would.

Your life insurance comparison is the ludicrous one.  A person directly benefits from a spouse's death if they take out a life insurance policy.  What does leaving a ring behind have to do with killing a president?  There's no connection whatsoever.  You're completely ignoring much more pertinent information that they had a fight and Marina refused to move back in with him.  And all because you want there to be more "evidence" than there actually is.
Title: Re: Did the CIA assassinate JFK?
Post by: Bill Brown on April 05, 2018, 11:39:42 PM
Or any good reason to believe that Oswald killed Kennedy or Tippit either.

You're not any better at mindreading me than you are at mindreading Oswald.  But I'm not surprised that this is your MO, because your whole case relies on assumptions and speculation.

So, not a single piece of evidence showing where anyone other than Oswald killed Kennedy and/or Tippit.
Title: Re: Did the CIA assassinate JFK?
Post by: Jack Trojan on April 06, 2018, 01:55:07 AM
So, not a single piece of evidence showing where anyone other than Oswald killed Kennedy and/or Tippit.

There's also no evidence that Santa Claus didn't wack JFK or Tippit. I guess Oswald must have done it then.
Title: Re: Did the CIA assassinate JFK?
Post by: Richard Smith on April 09, 2018, 02:45:31 PM
You're the one who should be embarrassed.  Something doesn't automatically become relevant just because you think he killed somebody later.  Even if it's unusual behavior.  If Oswald had made decaf instant coffee that morning instead of regular would you also consider that "probative of guilt"?  Actually you probably would.

Your life insurance comparison is the ludicrous one.  A person directly benefits from a spouse's death if they take out a life insurance policy.  What does leaving a ring behind have to do with killing a president?  There's no connection whatsoever.  You're completely ignoring much more pertinent information that they had a fight and Marina refused to move back in with him.  And all because you want there to be more "evidence" than there actually is.

Hopeless.  The obvious point is that an otherwise legal, not uncommon action can - when examined within the totality of circumstances in a case - become probative of guilt.  Even if standing alone it would not.  Buying a life insurance policy just prior to a mysterious death is the classic example.  Oswald's decision to leave his wedding ring at home for the first and only time of his marriage according to Marina along with an unusually large amount of money (during an unexpected visit to the location where he stored the rifle) on the day when other evidence links him to the assassination demonstrates foreknowledge of his potential arrest or death that day.  He wants to ensure that his wife has his wedding ring and as much money as he can provide his family before he is separated from them.  Now what was so dangerous that day that might lead Oswald to believe he might never be coming home?  Find someone in your community with a functioning brain to help at this point if you need further assistance.
Title: Re: Did the CIA assassinate JFK?
Post by: Steve M. Galbraith on April 09, 2018, 03:28:58 PM
Hopeless.  The obvious point is that an otherwise legal, not uncommon action can - when examined within the totality of circumstances in a case - become probative of guilt.  Even if standing alone it would not.  Buying a life insurance policy just prior to a mysterious death is the classic example.  Oswald's decision to leave his wedding ring at home for the first and only time of his marriage according to Marina along with an unusually large amount of money (during an unexpected visit to the location where he stored the rifle) on the day when other evidence links him to the assassination demonstrates foreknowledge of his potential arrest or death that day.  He wants to ensure that his wife has his wedding ring and as much money as he can provide his family before he is separated from them.  Now what was so dangerous that day that might lead Oswald to believe he might never be coming home?  Find someone in your community with a functioning brain to help at this point if you need further assistance.

Marina said that she was shocked to find the $170 that he left her. It must have been, she said, all of his money.

She said his usual routine would be to leave her a few dollars - repeat a few dollars - on Monday, when he would return to his rooming house, to buy things for the children. He told her, he said, he would see her again Saturday and Sunday but because he stayed on Thursday would not stay overnight on Friday.

So he could, as was the usual routine, leave her a few dollars on Monday. But he didn't; he left her money on Friday. And far more than, Marina said, he usually left her.

The "lots of other men do things like this" response is given either because the person is quite illogical in his thinking (hint: Oswald was not like "lots of other men", e.g., "lots of other men" who left their wedding rings and nearly all of their move that morning didn't work in the building where someone shot at the president as he rode by, et cetera, et cetera) or because he is trying desperately to absolve Lee Oswald in the act of shooting the president.

Or perhaps both.

Title: Re: Did the CIA assassinate JFK?
Post by: Brian Walker on April 09, 2018, 04:47:04 PM
The CIA did assassinate JFK.

T. He threatened to smash the CIA into a thousand pieces and scatter it into the wind.


Who did he say this to? Can we get a name?
Title: Re: Did the CIA assassinate JFK?
Post by: Brian Walker on April 09, 2018, 04:55:29 PM
The architect of the coup, Dulles, coincidentally became a member of the WC who determined that LHO acted alone. Imagine that.

This alone tells me the WC was a hoax. The CIA would immediately know anything the commission had in the pipeline that could pose a threat to them. Amazing LBJ got away with it.

Sounds like you were just looking for a reason to believe that the WC was a hoax. I mean it's almost like you came to a conclusion and then look at everything through that lense.
Title: Re: Did the CIA assassinate JFK?
Post by: Bill Chapman on April 09, 2018, 06:12:23 PM
Hopeless.  The obvious point is that an otherwise legal, not uncommon action can - when examined within the totality of circumstances in a case - become probative of guilt.  Even if standing alone it would not.  Buying a life insurance policy just prior to a mysterious death is the classic example.  Oswald's decision to leave his wedding ring at home for the first and only time of his marriage according to Marina along with an unusually large amount of money (during an unexpected visit to the location where he stored the rifle) on the day when other evidence links him to the assassination demonstrates foreknowledge of his potential arrest or death that day.  He wants to ensure that his wife has his wedding ring and as much money as he can provide his family before he is separated from them.  Now what was so dangerous that day that might lead Oswald to believe he might never be coming home?  Find someone in your community with a functioning brain to help at this point if you need further assistance.

If memory serves, Oswald left his ring at home (sometimes?) when working at a factory in Russia. It interfered with the mechanical job he was doing according to Marina. Putting together radios, or something.

Now watch CT brainiacs jump for joy, bleating "SEE?SEE?"
Title: Re: Did the CIA assassinate JFK?
Post by: Bill Chapman on April 09, 2018, 07:52:50 PM
I doubt you'll see any CTs jump since the TSBD didn't produce radios, or something.

My point is the fact that Oswald left his wedding ring behind, at times, while working in Russia can be used in court as a precedent regarding any claim that Oswald had never left his wedding ring behind prior to 11.22.63
 
Title: Re: Did the CIA assassinate JFK?
Post by: James Dahl on April 09, 2018, 08:02:12 PM
I don't believe any government agencies AT THE TIME had a role in the assassination.  I believe immediately following LBJ becoming president he ordered a comprehensive coverup however.
Title: Re: Did the CIA assassinate JFK?
Post by: Steve M. Galbraith on April 09, 2018, 08:15:46 PM
Does that pass for wit in your world? Wow.

Try to follow along. My point is the fact that Oswald left his wedding ring behind, at times, while working in Russia can be used in court as a precedent regarding any claim that Oswald had never left his wedding ring behind prior to 11.22.63

I understand that you're sort of "spit balling it" (in case you're not familiar, that's American slang for sort of brainstorming things).

Priscilla Johnson McMillan quotes Marina in "Marina and Lee" as saying the Lee never took off his ring off and left it behind even when he was doing the grimiest of manual jobs.

In fact, Marina said this about the incident (from her WC testimony):
Mr. RANKIN. Had your husband ever left his wedding ring at home that way before?
Mrs. OSWALD. At one time while he was still at Fort Worth, it was inconvenient for him to work with his wedding ring on and he would remove it, but at work--he would not leave it at home. His wedding ring was rather wide, and it bothered him.
I don't know now. He would take it off at work.
Mr. RANKIN. Then this is the first time during your married life that he had ever left it at home where you live?
Mrs. OSWALD. Yes.

Couldn't he, as Marina mentioned, take it off while at work if it got in the way? Put it in his pocket? Why leave it behind? What was he going to do at work day at the TSBD that was different than the other days, days when he wore it?

Yes, besides shoot JFK I mean?



Title: Re: Did the CIA assassinate JFK?
Post by: Bill Chapman on April 09, 2018, 08:29:32 PM
I understand that you're sort of "spit balling it" (in case you're not familiar, that's American slang for sort of brainstorming things).

Priscilla Johnson McMillan quotes Marina in "Marina and Lee" as saying the Lee never took off his ring off and left it behind even when he was doing the grimiest of manual jobs.

In fact, Marina said this about the incident (from her WC testimony):
Mr. RANKIN. Had your husband ever left his wedding ring at home that way before?
Mrs. OSWALD. At one time while he was still at Fort Worth, it was inconvenient for him to work with his wedding ring on and he would remove it, but at work--he would not leave it at home. His wedding ring was rather wide, and it bothered him.
I don't know now. He would take it off at work.
Mr. RANKIN. Then this is the first time during your married life that he had ever left it at home where you live?
Mrs. OSWALD. Yes.

Couldn't he, as Marina mentioned, take it off while at work if it got in the way? Put it in his pocket? Why leave it behind? What was he going to do at work day at the TSBD that was different than the other days, days when he wore it?

Yes, besides shoot JFK I mean?

Although I remember something about the wedding ring re work in Russia, I'm down with leaving the ring at home deserving inclusion on the Bug53 list
Title: Re: Did the CIA assassinate JFK?
Post by: Steve M. Galbraith on April 09, 2018, 09:38:29 PM
Although I remember something about the wedding ring re work in Russia, I'm down with leaving the ring at home deserving inclusion on the Bug53 list

Yes, I was scanning the Mailer book - which goes over in detail his work at the factory - for anything related to it. I also had some vague memory of something along the lines of him taking it off for some reason.

At the factory - radio/TV - he worked in the metal lathe shop as a metal worker. Mailer recites several incidents of workers complaining about Oswald using their equipment without permission and ruining their calibrations of the machines. Some of this, of course, was before he married Marina.

Here he is in Minsk with fellow co-workers. Is that his Marine ring on his right hand?

(http://i68.tinypic.com/jz8pvk.jpg)                   
Title: Re: Did the CIA assassinate JFK?
Post by: Walt Cakebread on April 10, 2018, 12:45:16 AM
Yes, I was scanning the Mailer book - which goes over in detail his work at the factory - for anything related to it. I also had some vague memory of something along the lines of him taking it off for some reason.

At the factor - radio/TV - he worked in the metal lathe shop as a metal worker. Mailer recites several incidents of workers complaining about Oswald using their equipment without permission and ruining their calibrations of the machines. Some of this, of course, was before he married Marina.

Here he is in Minsk with fellow co-workers. Is that his Marine ring on his right hand?

(http://i68.tinypic.com/jz8pvk.jpg)                 

There's a message being transmitted in this photo......   Do you know what it is?
Title: Re: Did the CIA assassinate JFK?
Post by: Richard Smith on April 10, 2018, 02:51:50 PM
My point is the fact that Oswald left his wedding ring behind, at times, while working in Russia can be used in court as a precedent regarding any claim that Oswald had never left his wedding ring behind prior to 11.22.63

Marina's testimony indicated that he had never left his wedding ring at home before.  She did say that he sometimes took it off at work. 

Mr. RANKIN. Had your husband ever left his wedding ring at home that way before?
Mrs. OSWALD. At one time while he was still at Fort Worth, it was inconvenient for him to work with his wedding ring on and he would remove it, but at work--he would not leave it at home. His wedding ring was rather wide, and it bothered him.
 I don't know now. He would take it off at work.
Mr. RANKIN. Then this is the first time during your married life that he had ever left it at home where you live?
Mrs. OSWALD. Yes.
Title: Re: Did the CIA assassinate JFK?
Post by: Richard Smith on April 10, 2018, 02:56:39 PM
Yes, I was scanning the Mailer book - which goes over in detail his work at the factory - for anything related to it. I also had some vague memory of something along the lines of him taking it off for some reason.

At the factor - radio/TV - he worked in the metal lathe shop as a metal worker. Mailer recites several incidents of workers complaining about Oswald using their equipment without permission and ruining their calibrations of the machines. Some of this, of course, was before he married Marina.

Here he is in Minsk with fellow co-workers. Is that his Marine ring on his right hand?

(http://i68.tinypic.com/jz8pvk.jpg)                 

I can't see the picture but per the Russian tradition, Oswald wore his wedding ring on his right hand.  It is visible in the picture of him waving from a train window with Marina when leaving Russia.
Title: Re: Did the CIA assassinate JFK?
Post by: Craig Coleman on April 10, 2018, 03:03:40 PM

Who did he say this to? Can we get a name?

Unfortunately there is no real evidence of this JFK quote. However, apparently former President Truman, whose administration established the CIA in 1947, is the one JFK came to to express that he "wanted to splinter the CIA in a thousand pieces and scatter it into the winds." Kennedy was frustrated with the failed Bay of Pigs so it seems possible that he would have said such a thing, but there really is nothing to prove it and all we have is word of mouth.
Title: Re: Did the CIA assassinate JFK?
Post by: Craig Coleman on April 10, 2018, 03:12:50 PM
I?ll answer the thread question in one word:  no.

Do you have any reasoning or evidence as to why you believe this?
Title: Re: Did the CIA assassinate JFK?
Post by: Richard Smith on April 10, 2018, 06:42:48 PM
RE http://dperry1943.com/ring.html

As usual, she couldn't keep her story straight. So which version is fake?

It's unclear what you mean in just citing a link to a bunch of quotes.  Marina indicates that Oswald left his wedding ring at the Paine residence and that was an unusual - perhaps singular - occurrence for him.  If this is story is"fake", then what are you suggesting happened?  That Marina made up the wedding ring story and Oswald had it on when arrested?  And then for some unknown reason someone had her and Ruth Paine to lie about finding it at the Paine residence?  So perhaps you can enlighten us as to what you believe is going on here.
Title: Re: Did the CIA assassinate JFK?
Post by: Steve M. Galbraith on April 10, 2018, 07:02:45 PM
The above photo can be seen here:

http://news.bbcimg.co.uk/media/images/71200000/jpg/_71200186_oswald_624.jpg

Yes, the ring seen (or that I see) is on his right hand.

The only reference to wedding ring in the Mailer book is where Marina describes finding it in a cup on her dresser the morning of the assassination. The Mailer book is a mess but the section on his time in Russia - while muddled - has some interesting material especially about how the KGB viewed him (as an erratic person that they were glad to get rid of).

Same with Priscilla McMillan Johnson's book. The only reference is to Marina finding it that day.
Title: Re: Did the CIA assassinate JFK?
Post by: Richard Smith on April 10, 2018, 07:23:11 PM
You didn't even try, did you?

In one FBI interview Marina Oswald stated "that the following day (Friday) when she got up from bed, after the departure of her husband, she noticed his wedding ring laying on the top of their bedroom dresser."

[WCE 1787 11.30.63]

 In another FBI interview she stated "that she had not discovered Oswald's wedding ring on the dresser in her room at the Ruth Paine home the morning of November 22, 1963, upon getting up that morning. She said she had not seen it until the police came to her house to search it, following the arrest of Oswald on November 22, 1963."

[FBI 11.30.63 WCE 1820]

In yet another interview she said "She remembered that Oswald had on his marriage ring on the evening of November 21, 1963. Marina advised that on November 22, 1963, when the police came to the Paine house and searched it, they found Oswald's marriage ring on a dresser in the room which she, Marina, used. She said she had not seen his ring on the dresser before that.

She advised the last time she had seen the ring was on the hand of Oswald the evening before."

[FBI 12.4.63 FBI File #DL 89-43]

The FBI took note of this: "In the same report, Gopadze reported that Marina said she noticed Oswald wedding ring lying on top of her bedroom dresser when she got up from bed on the morning of November 22, 1963. This is in direct contradiction to statements Marina has made to us - these being that she did not know Oswald had left his wedding ring until after the police found it."

[NARA FBI 124-10171-10399]

There is inconsistency as to exactly when she found the ring that day.  Not whether the ring was found at the Paine residence.  Caprio takes issue with the fact that the ring was found at the Paine residence suggesting the record doesn't support that conclusion.  Are you - like him - suggesting it wasn't left there by Oswald that morning?  If he was wearing it on Nov. 21 and it was found there at some point on Nov. 22 (even if we don't know the exact minute) doesn't that mean he left it there?  How else would it get there? Again, it's not clear what the counternarrative is here since you both refuse to state what you are suggesting might have happened.
Title: Re: Did the CIA assassinate JFK?
Post by: John Iacoletti on April 10, 2018, 11:16:11 PM
Hopeless.  The obvious point is that an otherwise legal, not uncommon action can - when examined within the totality of circumstances in a case - become probative of guilt.

Yes, you're hopeless.  A false equivalence doesn't become a valid argument no matter how many times you try to repeat it.

Quote
  Even if standing alone it would not.  Buying a life insurance policy just prior to a mysterious death is the classic example.  Oswald's decision to leave his wedding ring at home for the first and only time of his marriage according to Marina along with an unusually large amount of money (during an unexpected visit to the location where he stored the rifle) on the day when other evidence links him to the assassination demonstrates foreknowledge of his potential arrest or death that day.

No, it demonstrates that he gave her some money and left his ring behind.  Everything else is attempted mind-reading and supposition -- nothing more.

Quote
  He wants to ensure that his wife has his wedding ring and as much money as he can provide his family before he is separated from them.  Now what was so dangerous that day that might lead Oswald to believe he might never be coming home?

So now you somehow know that Oswald believed he might never be coming home.  This just keep getting better and better.  This is no different from Walt believing that Oswald and deMorenschildt cooked up a hoax shooting to impress the Cubans.  You're making something up out of whole cloth just because you want it to be true.

Hopeless indeed.

Quote
  Find someone in your community with a functioning brain to help at this point if you need further assistance.

Yeah....no.  Arrogance doesn't make a fallacious argument any less fallacious either.
Title: Re: Did the CIA assassinate JFK?
Post by: John Iacoletti on April 10, 2018, 11:17:57 PM
If memory serves, Oswald left his ring at home (sometimes?) when working at a factory in Russia. It interfered with the mechanical job he was doing according to Marina. Putting together radios, or something.

Your memory rarely serves.
Title: Re: Did the CIA assassinate JFK?
Post by: John Iacoletti on April 10, 2018, 11:23:14 PM
If he was wearing it on Nov. 21 and it was found there at some point on Nov. 22 (even if we don't know the exact minute) doesn't that mean he left it there?

Do you have some evidence that he was wearing it on Nov. 21?
Title: Re: Did the CIA assassinate JFK?
Post by: Michael Carney on August 28, 2020, 09:14:40 PM
I say no also
Title: Re: Did the CIA assassinate JFK?
Post by: Michael T. Griffith on August 29, 2020, 12:48:37 AM
Until fairly recently, I doubted the idea that senior CIA people were part of the conspiracy, but Professor James Douglass's book JFK and the Unspeakable has changed my mind.

Before then, I believed that only mid-level rogue CIA officers, along with some radical anti-Castro Cubans and Mafia elements were involved. Douglass's book and other recent research, along with new information that has surfaced, has convinced me that senior elements in the military and the Secret Service were also significantly involved, especially in the cover-up. I believe J. Edgar Hoover knew the assassination was coming but chose to allow it to happen.

The ARRB-released documents and interviews on the medical evidence provide considerable evidence that senior military leaders and some Secret Service personnel were involved in the cover-up.



Title: Re: Did the CIA assassinate JFK?
Post by: Michael Carney on August 29, 2020, 02:27:28 AM
“Until fairly recently, I doubted the idea that senior CIA people were part of the conspiracy, but Professor James Douglass's book JFK and the Unspeakable has changed my mind.”

My personal opinion is that the CIA may have been planning but they did not pull it off, the mob did, specifically Marcello and Trafficante.

“Before then, I believed that only mid-level rogue CIA officers, along with some radical anti-Castro Cubans and Mafia elements were involved. Douglass's book and other recent research, along with new information that has surfaced, has convinced me that senior elements in the military and the Secret Service were also significantly involved, especially in the cover-up. I believe J. Edgar Hoover knew the assassination was coming but chose to allow it to happen.”

You are correct about Hoover knowing about it, he was involved in providing the WC with information that would take suspicion off of the mob. The mob had Hoover in their pocket because of the pictures Meyer Lanksy had of him going down on his lover.

“The ARRB-released documents and interviews on the medical evidence provide considerable evidence that senior military leaders and some Secret Service personnel were involved in the cover-up.”

The Secret Service was involved in the cover-up from the beginning knowing that Hickey fired the fatal shot. Thus all the messing with the x-rays and the peculiar behavior they displayed. I’m sure the other agencies went along with them in the cover-up.

I have read a number of books on the subject that back up my belief that Carlos Marcello and Santo Trafficante did it.
Title: Re: Did the CIA assassinate JFK?
Post by: Michael Carney on August 29, 2020, 02:51:12 AM
I forgot to mention that Marcello admitted he did to his cellmate while in prison. It was said that his cellmate was an FBI plant.
Title: Re: Did the CIA assassinate JFK?
Post by: Michael T. Griffith on August 30, 2020, 04:04:20 PM
“Until fairly recently, I doubted the idea that senior CIA people were part of the conspiracy, but Professor James Douglass's book JFK and the Unspeakable has changed my mind.”

My personal opinion is that the CIA may have been planning but they did not pull it off, the mob did, specifically Marcello and Trafficante.

“Before then, I believed that only mid-level rogue CIA officers, along with some radical anti-Castro Cubans and Mafia elements were involved. Douglass's book and other recent research, along with new information that has surfaced, has convinced me that senior elements in the military and the Secret Service were also significantly involved, especially in the cover-up. I believe J. Edgar Hoover knew the assassination was coming but chose to allow it to happen.”

You are correct about Hoover knowing about it, he was involved in providing the WC with information that would take suspicion off of the mob. The mob had Hoover in their pocket because of the pictures Meyer Lanksy had of him going down on his lover.

“The ARRB-released documents and interviews on the medical evidence provide considerable evidence that senior military leaders and some Secret Service personnel were involved in the cover-up.”

The Secret Service was involved in the cover-up from the beginning knowing that Hickey fired the fatal shot. Thus all the messing with the x-rays and the peculiar behavior they displayed. I’m sure the other agencies went along with them in the cover-up.

I have read a number of books on the subject that back up my belief that Carlos Marcello and Santo Trafficante did it.

I think a key clue is the medical cover-up. The Mafia did not have the means or the opportunity to order the autopsy doctors not to dissect the throat wound (dissection would have revealed that the wound was not connected to the back wound--Finck admitted at the Clay Shaw trial that a senior military officer ordered him not to dissect the wound), to get a forger to add the 6.5 mm object the AP x-ray, to get a forger to add the impossible white patch to the lateral x-rays, to doctor the photos of the back of the head (they ignored  photo F8 probably because they figured it was too confusing to bother altering), and to steal the Harper fragment, the smashed bullet that was found in the limo in Bethesda, the extra fragment that Tom Robinson and Dennis Davis saw and that David prepared a receipt for, and several of the autopsy photos and x-rays.

The catch is that the CIA could not have done these those either, because the autopsy was under military control, and the CIA never had possession of any of the autopsy materials. The military and then the Justice Department controlled those materials.

I think another key clue is the disclosure that the Zapruder film was diverted to two CIA photographic labs: NPIC and Hawkeye Works (the CIA-contracted Kodak lab in Rochester, NY). Many years ago we learned from a released document that the Zapruder film went to NPIC. In more recent years, one of the photo analysts at NPIC has come forward with the information that the film was also sent to Hawkeye Works, that two NPIC teams analyzed the film and prepared briefing boards on it, and that the two teams' briefing boards were quite different because they analyzed different versions of the film. The second team analyzed the doctored version that came back from Hawkeye Works.

Here's a video on this new evidence. The presenter is Doug Horne, the former chief analyst of military records for the ARRB:

https://www.fff.org/explore-freedom/article/altered-history-exposing-deceit-and-deception-in-the-jfk-assassination-medical-evidence-part-4-video/
Title: Re: Did the CIA assassinate JFK?
Post by: Michael Carney on August 30, 2020, 07:43:03 PM
“I think a key clue is the medical cover-up. The Mafia did not have the means or the opportunity to order the autopsy doctors not to dissect the throat wound (dissection would have revealed that the wound was not connected to the back wound— Finck admitted at the Clay Shaw trial that a senior military officer ordered him not to dissect the wound), to get a forger to add the 6.5 mm object the AP x-ray, to get a forger to add the impossible white patch to the lateral x-rays, to doctor the photos of the back of the head (they ignored  photo F8 probably because they figured it was too confusing to bother altering), and to steal the Harper fragment, the smashed bullet that was found in the limo in Bethesda, the extra fragment that Tom Robinson and Dennis Davis saw and that David prepared a receipt for, and several of the autopsy photos and x-rays.”

No the Mafia did not have the means but the Secret Service did have the means and they controlled the autopsy in Dallas because they knew that Hickey accidentally shot JFK.  Watching the documentary “JFK – The Smoking Gun” opened my eyes to the cover-up. I think once they were in Bethesda the military and the Secret Service  controlled everything.

“The catch is that the CIA could not have done these those either, because the autopsy was under military control, and the CIA never had possession of any of the autopsy materials. The military and then the Justice Department controlled those materials.”

Being under military control and Secret Service control.

“I think another key clue is the disclosure that the Zapruder film was diverted to two CIA photographic labs: NPIC and Hawkeye Works (the CIA-contracted Kodak lab in Rochester, NY). Many years ago we learned from a released document that the Zapruder film went to NPIC. In more recent years, one of the photo analysts at NPIC has come forward with the information that the film was also sent to Hawkeye Works, that two NPIC teams analyzed the film and prepared briefing boards on it, and that the two teams' briefing boards were quite different because they analyzed different versions of the film. The second team analyzed the doctored version that came back from Hawkeye Works.”

This whole thing with the Z film just gets messier and messier all the time so I am starting to suspect that their main goal is confusion.  Also where was the massive head wound, I believe it’s to create a confusion factor.

So my take on it is, work around the confusion; was there a 6mm hole in the back of JFK’s head, what could have possibly made it and once you put that together with the gun smoke and the witnesses that saw Hickey with the AR15 and standing up, case closed
Title: Re: Did the CIA assassinate JFK?
Post by: Michael T. Griffith on August 30, 2020, 10:40:09 PM
“I think a key clue is the medical cover-up. The Mafia did not have the means or the opportunity to order the autopsy doctors not to dissect the throat wound (dissection would have revealed that the wound was not connected to the back wound— Finck admitted at the Clay Shaw trial that a senior military officer ordered him not to dissect the wound), to get a forger to add the 6.5 mm object the AP x-ray, to get a forger to add the impossible white patch to the lateral x-rays, to doctor the photos of the back of the head (they ignored  photo F8 probably because they figured it was too confusing to bother altering), and to steal the Harper fragment, the smashed bullet that was found in the limo in Bethesda, the extra fragment that Tom Robinson and Dennis Davis saw and that David prepared a receipt for, and several of the autopsy photos and x-rays.”

No the Mafia did not have the means but the Secret Service did have the means and they controlled the autopsy in Dallas because they knew that Hickey accidentally shot JFK.  Watching the documentary “JFK – The Smoking Gun” opened my eyes to the cover-up. I think once they were in Bethesda the military and the Secret Service  controlled everything.

“The catch is that the CIA could not have done these those either, because the autopsy was under military control, and the CIA never had possession of any of the autopsy materials. The military and then the Justice Department controlled those materials.”

Being under military control and Secret Service control.

The Secret Service had no control at the autopsy. They only had one guy at the autopsy (Kellerman), and by all accounts he did nothing but watch. The Secret Service did courier the autopsy evidence/forensic evidence from Bethesda to the White House, but they had no influence on the autopsy, and most of the missing materials went missing after the Secret Service handed them over.

“I think another key clue is the disclosure that the Zapruder film was diverted to two CIA photographic labs: NPIC and Hawkeye Works (the CIA-contracted Kodak lab in Rochester, NY). Many years ago we learned from a released document that the Zapruder film went to NPIC. In more recent years, one of the photo analysts at NPIC has come forward with the information that the film was also sent to Hawkeye Works, that two NPIC teams analyzed the film and prepared briefing boards on it, and that the two teams' briefing boards were quite different because they analyzed different versions of the film. The second team analyzed the doctored version that came back from Hawkeye Works.”

This whole thing with the Z film just gets messier and messier all the time so I am starting to suspect that their main goal is confusion.  Also where was the massive head wound, I believe it’s to create a confusion factor.

From what we can piece together from the accounts of people who apparently saw the unedited version, the original film showed the limo coming to a full stop (just as dozens of witnesses reported), showed JFK being knocked visibly forward (the backward movement was apparently much less dramatic in the original film, which would explain why virtually no witnesses mentioned it--but several witnesses said JFK was propelled forward), showed bystander and limo-occupant reactions to at least six shots, did not show the impossible and odd blob/avulsion over the right ear, and showed particulate spray being blown in two directions.

So my take on it is, work around the confusion; was there a 6mm hole in the back of JFK’s head, what could have possibly made it and once you put that together with the gun smoke and the witnesses that saw Hickey with the AR15 and standing up, case closed.

We'll have to agree to disagree about the Hickey angle. I think it's a dead end. I don't think Powers and O'Donnell would have lied about not hearing Hickey fire his rifle. I also think the patrolmen near Hickey's car would have reacted to the sound of his rifle being fire. AR-15s are very loud. More important, the Hickey shot is only possible with the cowlick entry point on the head, but that entry point has been soundly debunked.

I find the HSCA's acoustical evidence determinative, which is one reason I believe one or two shots came from the front.


Title: Re: Did the CIA assassinate JFK?
Post by: Michael Carney on August 31, 2020, 04:41:51 AM
The Secret Service had no control at the autopsy. They only had one guy at the autopsy (Kellerman), and by all accounts he did nothing but watch. The Secret Service did courier the autopsy evidence/forensic evidence from Bethesda to the White House, but they had no influence on the autopsy, and most of the missing materials went missing after the Secret Service handed them over.

You need to watch “JFK – The Smoking Gun” In it Donahue explains the fatal shot and the confusion at the Bethesda autopsy. It is totally controlled by the Secret Service. Please, watch it. There are inaccuracies, ie; they come out with Oswald being the shooter but the witnesses are real, it explains how the WC ignored evidence to have it all lean towards a lone gunman.

showed particulate spray being blown in two directions.

Hello, there is a picture of particulate spray in two directions!! Woo, and there is the particulate spray in the skull from two directions!! Holy crap that is two frangible bullets hitting him in the head at the same time, front and back at the same time. I was thinking about that previously but this sounds like proof.

We'll have to agree to disagree about the Hickey angle. I think it's a dead end. I don't think Powers and O'Donnell would have lied about not hearing Hickey fire his rifle. I also think the patrolmen near Hickey's car would have reacted to the sound of his rifle being fire. AR-15s are very loud. More important, the Hickey shot is only possible with the cowlick entry point on the head, but that entry point has been soundly debunked.

Again Powers was half way to the presidential limo and O’Donnell was looking to his right when the shot went off. If you compare an AR15 going off compared to a 6.5 mm going off they are way different, AR15 is much quieter. So it would be easy to mistake a 6.5 mm from some distance and an AR15 going off near you. I have heard both. Compared to something like a 6.5 or an M14 a M16 is not loud. I have fired both and I would estimate that the M16 has about a third of the sound level of an M14. Sure glad I didn’t have to carry an M16 in Nam, M14’s were way more reliable.

I find the HSCA's acoustical evidence determinative, which is one reason I believe one or two shots came from the front.

I am seeing your point that two shot’s came from the front, frangible round to the head but what the hell hit his throat? Two Grassy Knoll shooters?? Guy in the sewer?
Title: Re: Did the CIA assassinate JFK?
Post by: Michael T. Griffith on August 31, 2020, 01:14:51 PM
The Secret Service had no control at the autopsy. They only had one guy at the autopsy (Kellerman), and by all accounts he did nothing but watch. The Secret Service did courier the autopsy evidence/forensic evidence from Bethesda to the White House, but they had no influence on the autopsy, and most of the missing materials went missing after the Secret Service handed them over.

You need to watch “JFK – The Smoking Gun” In it Donahue explains the fatal shot and the confusion at the Bethesda autopsy. It is totally controlled by the Secret Service. Please, watch it. There are inaccuracies, ie; they come out with Oswald being the shooter but the witnesses are real, it explains how the WC ignored evidence to have it all lean towards a lone gunman.

First, I need to correct my statement about the number of Secret Service agents at the autopsy: the Secret Service had two guys at the autopsy, not one: Kellerman and Greer.

I've watched JFK: The Smoking Gun. Part of the problem appears to be that McLaren is unfamiliar with all the disclosures from the ARRB-released documents and interviews. Kellerman and Greer could not even get into the morgue until 8:00 PM (nor could Sibert and O'Neill), nearly 90 minutes after the body arrived at the morgue. Bethesda was (and is) a military hospital, and there were armed military guards all over the place, and they were under the command of military officers, not the FBI or the Secret Service.

I should mention that before the autopsy began, Kellerman was one of the ones who was managing the shell game with the caskets, but we know from the released Air Force One tapes that senior military officers were also involved with the arrangements for the autopsy and for trying to separate Jackie from the ceremonial casket so they could divert it to Walter Reed before the "official" autopsy at Bethesda. (Jackie threw a major monkey wrench into this plan when she insisted on going with the ceremonial casket to Bethesda. They tried to talk her into going to the White House after Air Force One landed at Andrews, but she insisted on going with the casket to Bethesda.)

So senior Secret Service guys were working hand-in-glove with senior military officers to arrange for illicit surgery on the body at Bethesda before the official autopsy began at 8:00 PM. But once the autopsy began, senior military officers were in control. Afterward, senior military officers forced all the military personnel who were involved with the autopsy in any way to sign secrecy agreements that threatened court martial for violations.






Title: Re: Did the CIA assassinate JFK?
Post by: Paul May on August 31, 2020, 03:55:48 PM
First, I need to correct my statement about the number of Secret Service agents at the autopsy: the Secret Service had two guys at the autopsy, not one: Kellerman and Greer.

I've watched JFK: The Smoking Gun. Part of the problem appears to be that McLaren is unfamiliar with all the disclosures from the ARRB-released documents and interviews. Kellerman and Greer could not even get into the morgue until 8:00 PM (nor could Sibert and O'Neill), nearly 90 minutes after the body arrived at the morgue. Bethesda was (and is) a military hospital, and there were armed military guards all over the place, and they were under the command of military officers, not the FBI or the Secret Service.

I should mention that before the autopsy began, Kellerman was one of the ones who was managing the shell game with the caskets, but we know from the released Air Force One tapes that senior military officers were also involved with the arrangements for the autopsy and for trying to separate Jackie from the ceremonial casket so they could divert it to Walter Reed before the "official" autopsy at Bethesda. (Jackie threw a major monkey wrench into this plan when she insisted on going with the ceremonial casket to Bethesda. They tried to talk her into going to the White House after Air Force One landed at Andrews, but she insisted on going with the casket to Bethesda.)

So senior Secret Service guys were working hand-in-glove with senior military officers to arrange for illicit surgery on the body at Bethesda before the official autopsy began at 8:00 PM. But once the autopsy began, senior military officers were in control. Afterward, senior military officers forced all the military personnel who were involved with the autopsy in any way to sign secrecy agreements that threatened court martial for violations.


Hilarious stuff. A good sci-fi read.
Title: Re: Did the CIA assassinate JFK?
Post by: Larry Chambliss on August 31, 2020, 04:03:34 PM
But a lot of those underlings did die or were killed.
Title: Re: Did the CIA assassinate JFK?
Post by: Michael T. Griffith on August 31, 2020, 05:08:53 PM
Hilarious stuff. A good sci-fi read.

Excuse me, but you act like a troll. You do nothing but make these silly, snide remarks. You never offer any research or links to back up anything you say, at least as far as I have seen in your replies to me.

Now, in point of fact, the former chief analyst of military records at the ARRB, Doug Horne, has documented every statement that I made and that you dismissed. I would refer you to his 5-volume work Inside the ARRB. If you prefer video to print, here's a five-part video presentation by Horne in which he discusses a large chunk of this evidence:

Part 1: https://www.fff.org/explore-freedom/article/altered-history-exposing-deciet-and-deception-in-the-jfk-assassination-medical-evidence-part-1/
Part 2: https://www.fff.org/explore-freedom/article/altered-history-exposing-deceit-and-deception-in-the-jfk-assassination-medical-evidence-part-2/
Part 3: https://www.fff.org/explore-freedom/article/altered-history-exposing-deceit-and-deception-in-the-jfk-assassination-medical-evidence-part-3/
Part 4: https://www.fff.org/explore-freedom/article/altered-history-exposing-deceit-and-deception-in-the-jfk-assassination-medical-evidence-part-4-video/
Part 5: https://www.fff.org/explore-freedom/article/altered-history-exposing-deceit-and-deception-in-the-jfk-assassination-medical-evidence-part-5-video/

Before working for the ARRB, Horne earned a degree in history from Ohio State University, served for 10 years as an officer in the U.S. Navy, and worked for the Navy as a civilian in the Navy's anti-submarine warfare program. When the ARRB ended, Horne worked for the U.S. Holocaust Memorial Museum and then the U.S. State Department before retiring a few years ago. The ARRB thought enough of him to promote him from being a senior analyst of military records to being the chief analyst of military records. So he's not some yahoo amateur with no education or background.

If you want laughable sci-fi, go read the Warren Commission's report or review the single-bullet theory or the lone-gunman head-shot theory (either version).




Title: Re: Did the CIA assassinate JFK?
Post by: Michael Carney on August 31, 2020, 05:22:34 PM
And your version is what? Are you going to contribute or just make snide remarks?
Title: Re: Did the CIA assassinate JFK?
Post by: Michael Carney on August 31, 2020, 05:26:57 PM
“I've watched JFK: The Smoking Gun. Part of the problem appears to be that McLaren is unfamiliar with all the disclosures from the ARRB-released documents and interviews. Kellerman and Greer could not even get into the morgue until 8:00 PM (nor could Sibert and O'Neill), nearly 90 minutes after the body arrived at the morgue. Bethesda was (and is) a military hospital, and there were armed military guards all over the place, and they were under the command of military officers, not the FBI or the Secret Service.”

I wasn’t talking about actions at the morgue; I am only talking about actions during the autopsy. It sure appears that Kellerman was influencing what was going on during the autopsy in Bethesda. Then Kellerman collected all the film that was shot in the autopsy room along with x-rays that they, the Secret Service, were supposed make copies of and to turn over to the FBI but never did, ultimately they destroyed all the evidence.

A curious note, JFK is laying on his back in the autopsy room and the doctors are working on the right side of his head.

After the autopsy, probably the next day, Dr Ebersol returns from a meeting at the White House with the Secret Service with bullet fragments and instructs Jerrol Custer to tape them to the bones (skull bones) he was asked to manufacture an x-ray that would obscure detections of an explosive frangible bullet by placing fragments of FMJ bullets on JFK’s remains.

The first thing Dr Ebersol said to Custer when he returned from the White House was “I want these bone fragments x-rayed with these metal fragments taped”
Custer and others had to sign a non disclosure agreement and Custer was told that if he mentions anything about anything, it would be the sorriest day of his life and he would spend the rest of his life behind prison walls. It’s not clear who said this, military personnel or the Secret Service but it is apparent at this time they are working together to cover up the truth. I’m sure the military had their agenda and the Secret Service had theirs. Why would the Secret Service do this? Why would they create this huge cover up if they weren’t somehow involved in JFK’s demise?

Another observation; I have a large pile of evidence that Hickey did it but I have seen no evidence that the CIA had anything to do with it, not that I have been looking for it.
Title: Re: Did the CIA assassinate JFK?
Post by: Paul May on August 31, 2020, 06:34:07 PM
Excuse me, but you act like a troll. You do nothing but make these silly, snide remarks. You never offer any research or links to back up anything you say, at least as far as I have seen in your replies to me.

Now, in point of fact, the former chief analyst of military records at the ARRB, Doug Horne, has documented every statement that I made and that you dismissed. I would refer you to his 5-volume work Inside the ARRB. If you prefer video to print, here's a five-part video presentation by Horne in which he discusses a large chunk of this evidence:

Part 1: https://www.fff.org/explore-freedom/article/altered-history-exposing-deciet-and-deception-in-the-jfk-assassination-medical-evidence-part-1/
Part 2: https://www.fff.org/explore-freedom/article/altered-history-exposing-deceit-and-deception-in-the-jfk-assassination-medical-evidence-part-2/
Part 3: https://www.fff.org/explore-freedom/article/altered-history-exposing-deceit-and-deception-in-the-jfk-assassination-medical-evidence-part-3/
Part 4: https://www.fff.org/explore-freedom/article/altered-history-exposing-deceit-and-deception-in-the-jfk-assassination-medical-evidence-part-4-video/
Part 5: https://www.fff.org/explore-freedom/article/altered-history-exposing-deceit-and-deception-in-the-jfk-assassination-medical-evidence-part-5-video/

Before working for the ARRB, Horne earned a degree in history from Ohio State University, served for 10 years as an officer in the U.S. Navy, and worked for the Navy as a civilian in the Navy's anti-submarine warfare program. When the ARRB ended, Horne worked for the U.S. Holocaust Memorial Museum and then the U.S. State Department before retiring a few years ago. The ARRB thought enough of him to promote him from being a senior analyst of military records to being the chief analyst of military records. So he's not some yahoo amateur with no education or background.

If you want laughable sci-fi, go read the Warren Commission's report or review the single-bullet theory or the lone-gunman head-shot theory (either version).


Absolutely correct. Your recycled crap is not worth commenting on. When you use Doug Horne as a reference it’s even more amusing. You, Horne and any other conspiracy nuts have little to no ability to interpret evidence without bias. You spend the days recycling garbage long ago discarded by main stream researchers. And to cap it off, you support the Dean of conspiracy lunatics, Donald Trump. You’re a hoot!
Title: Re: Did the CIA assassinate JFK?
Post by: Jerry Organ on August 31, 2020, 06:53:37 PM
Another observation; I have a large pile of evidence that Hickey did it but I have seen no evidence that the CIA had anything to do with it, not that I have been looking for it.

Then you believe his shot went through the Queen Mary followup-car's windshield. ::)

(https://images2.imgbox.com/51/ba/5CbPyY7I_o.jpg)
(https://sites.google.com/site/jfkforum/misc/newsgroup/spacers/dot_clear.gif)
From the Pat Speer site.
 
(https://images2.imgbox.com/6e/3c/hIIVCKtq_o.jpg)
(https://sites.google.com/site/jfkforum/misc/newsgroup/spacers/dot_clear.gif)
From the Pat Speer site.
Line drawing of the Hickey shot from the "Mortal Error" book (flipped for comparison purposes) and superimposed over a Bronson film frame. Agents were seated too low to accord with the "Mortal Error" drawing.
Title: Re: Did the CIA assassinate JFK?
Post by: Michael Carney on August 31, 2020, 09:11:10 PM
Then you believe his shot went through the Queen Mary followup-car's windshield. 

No, I believe it went over it

Line drawing of the Hickey shot from the "Mortal Error" book (flipped for comparison purposes) and superimposed over a Bronson film frame. Agents were seated too low to accord with the "Mortal Error" drawing.

Hickey and the other agent were sitting on top of the backrest with their feet on the seat. Hickey stood up, the car decelerated, he lost his balance, and he naturally responded, reflex reaction, and grabbed onto the grip and trigger thus squeezing off a round.

Clint Hill was halfway to JFK's limo and the agent in the back with Hickey was looking to his right at the time of the shot.
Title: Re: Did the CIA assassinate JFK?
Post by: Jerry Organ on September 01, 2020, 01:11:16 AM
Then you believe his shot went through the Queen Mary followup-car's windshield. 

No, I believe it went over it

The analysis by Pat Speer showing otherwise is flawed? Or the Bronson film is a forgery?

Quote
Line drawing of the Hickey shot from the "Mortal Error" book (flipped for comparison purposes) and superimposed over a Bronson film frame. Agents were seated too low to accord with the "Mortal Error" drawing.

Hickey and the other agent were sitting on top of the backrest with their feet on the seat.

Then their head heights should be roughly the same.

Quote
Hickey stood up, the car decelerated, he lost his balance, and he naturally responded, reflex reaction, and grabbed onto the grip and trigger thus squeezing off a round.

Clint Hill was halfway to JFK's limo and the agent in the back with Hickey was looking to his right at the time of the shot.

(https://i.ibb.co/yQdMNXy/hickey-in-betzner-possible-position.jpg)  (https://www.jfkassassinationgallery.com/albums/userpics/10001/ALTGENSZ.jpg)  (https://www.jfkassassinationgallery.com/albums/userpics/10001/002.jpg)

Bennett was sat down on the seat but Hickey seems to have propped himself up by pinning his feet somehow against the jumpseat, and remained that way. The height of Hickey's head doesn't change in the Altgens photos, the Zapruder and Nix films, and the McIntire photo taken just pass the Underpass.

It may have been Agent Ready who was seen to "fall" by jumping off the car and getting back on.
Title: Re: Did the CIA assassinate JFK?
Post by: Michael Carney on September 01, 2020, 01:52:29 PM
(https://i.postimg.cc/BnmKxr8r/images-m16.jpg)
This photo shows Hickey with the AR15 after he fired the bullet. You can see Hill on the trunk of the limo. So this is after Hickey had stood up on the seat and has since fallen backwards. So he was much higher when the gun went off.
(https://i.postimg.cc/dtBv3vpK/Clint-Hill-running.jpg)
Here you can see Hill running towards the limo and you can see how far back the follow-up car backed off and doing so is probably what caused Hickey to lose his balance.

The analysis by Pat Speer showing otherwise is flawed? Or the Bronson film is a forgery?
Please direct me to where I can see Pat Speer showing otherwise and the Bronson film.
Title: Re: Did the CIA assassinate JFK?
Post by: Jerry Organ on September 01, 2020, 03:25:53 PM
(https://i.postimg.cc/BnmKxr8r/images-m16.jpg)
This photo shows Hickey with the AR15 after he fired the bullet. You can see Hill on the trunk of the limo. So this is after Hickey had stood up on the seat and has since fallen backwards. So he was much higher when the gun went off.
(https://i.postimg.cc/dtBv3vpK/Clint-Hill-running.jpg)
Here you can see Hill running towards the limo and you can see how far back the follow-up car backed off and doing so is probably what caused Hickey to lose his balance.
(https://i.postimg.cc/BnmKxr8r/images-m16.jpg)
(https://sites.google.com/site/jfkforum/misc/newsgroup/spacers/dot_clear.gif)
Photo taken on Stemmons, after both
cars had briefly stopped on the ramp.
 
(https://i.postimg.cc/dtBv3vpK/Clint-Hill-running.jpg)
(https://sites.google.com/site/jfkforum/misc/newsgroup/spacers/dot_clear.gif)
Fanciful recreation from a movie.
Hickey could have changed his posture during the brief stop on the Stemmons on-ramp.

Quote
The analysis by Pat Speer showing otherwise is flawed? Or the Bronson film is a forgery?
Please direct me to where I can see Pat Speer showing otherwise and the Bronson film.

It's near the bottom of "Chapter 5b: Primary Pieces" ( Link (http://www.patspeer.com/chapter5b:primarypieces) )

Some "Mortal Error" apologists are so removed from reality, one posted the picture below and claimed: "Hickey can be seen in the Altgens photograph standing in the follow-up car" ( Link (https://jfk-donahue.weebly.com/the-bronson-film.html) ). To be standing, Hickey's head would have to be roughly at the level of the heads of the agents standing on the running boards.

(https://jfk-donahue.weebly.com/uploads/8/2/8/1/8281037/1404444377.jpg)
Title: Re: Did the CIA assassinate JFK?
Post by: Michael Carney on September 01, 2020, 07:35:12 PM
Pat Speer
"The Kennedy detail forcefully removed Kennedy's body from the hospital at the request of the Kennedy entourage, with the blessing of the new President, Lyndon B. Johnson. Kellerman's taking control of the medical evidence was performed under orders from the President's physician, George Burkley, almost certainly at the request of the Kennedy family."

Who was the “Kennedy detail”?  Who was the “Kennedy entourage”? It was Jackie Kennedy and the Secret Service. The author is just word smiting to pull the wool over our eyes so nothing there.

"The President's brain was kept at Bethesda until it could be further studied, after which Dr. Burkley, now working for President Johnson, gave it to the Secret Service Protective Research Section, where it remained until 1965. So yes, McLaren was unfair in accusing Kellerman of running off with the President's brain. Kellerman never had it in his possession."

This was just McLaren’s understanding and has nothing to do with Hickey or the shot.

“The First Shot Miss”

Again nothing to do with Hickey or the shot.

“The Second Shot Miss”

Again nothing to do with Hickey or the shot.

“Re-inspecting Number 2”

 Again nothing to do with Hickey or the shot.

“The Third Shot Miss”

"He cites S.M. Holland's initial statement that "After the first shot the secret service man raised up in the seat with a machine gun and then dropped back down in the seat" as evidence Hickey shot Kennedy. He fails to tell his viewers that Holland also claimed to see "a puff of smoke come from the trees" after this first shot, and no other puff of smoke. That's right. The smoke observed by Holland and others while standing atop the railroad bridge came from behind the picket fence on the grassy knoll. So how can McLaren cite them as support a rifle was fired in the middle of the plaza? He can't. So he doesn't. He claims ten witnesses "at ground level" smelled gunpowder, but never lists them."

I will list them:
Witnesses to smelling gunpowder at street level:
•   Ralph Yarborough was in the car two cars behind the Presidents car and said he smelled gunpowder. He is a war veteran with more than 50 years experience with fire arms. WC Vol VII, pg 439
•   Earl Brown, Dallas Police Patrolman – “Heard shot’s and then smelled gunpowder” WC Vol VI, pg 233
•   Elizabeth Cabell, wife of Dallas mayor, said “acutely aware of the smell of gunpowder”  WC Vol VII, pg 486
•   Billy J. Martin, patrolman - “You could smell the gunpowder… you knew he wasn’t far away. When you’re that close, you can smell the powder burning. Why you—you’ve got to be pretty close to them… you could smell the gunpowder… right there in the street.”  http://educationforum.ipbhost.com/topic/19948-the-smell-of-gunpowder-in-dealey-plaza-from-murder-from-within-wind-speed-direction/ 8-30-2012
•   Congressman Ray Roberts, seated next to her, had mentioned it also. Same source as Martin
•   Tom C. Dillard, two cars behind the Cabell car, he “. . . very definitely smelled gunpowder when the cars moved up to the corner [of Elm and Houston Streets] Same source as Martin
•   Virgie Rackley stood in front of the depository building close to the street. “She recalled that after the second shot, she smelled gun smoke…” same source as Martin
•   One newspaper summed it up: “. . . seconds later the cavalcade was gone. The area still reeked with the smell of gunpowder.” Same source as Martin

“He cites Jean Hill's statements as evidence a member of the Secret Service fired a weapon. He fails to tell his viewers that Hill thought the first shot hit Kennedy in the head, and that she thought some or all of the shots she heard after he was hit in the head may have been fired by the Secret Service in retaliation.”

Yeah, that would be Hickey

“He wonders whether Hugh Betzner's recollection he saw "a flash of pink" wasn't a reference to the muzzle blast from Hickey's rifle. that the flash of pink which Betzner observed, while standing 200 feet or so back behind the limousine at the moment of the head shot, was the pink-suited Mrs. Kennedy climbing out onto the back of the limousine, and then crawling back to her seat”.
The “flash of pink” was JFK’s brains be blown out and Hickey falling back down into his seat.
“Margaret Chisolm – Two men stood up and sat back down”


All he is saying is what she saw, we don’t know if McLaren tried to contact her or not.

“Bill and Gayle Newman - The sound of a shot from Hickey's position would have come straight to their left ears. And yet they thought this shot came from behind.”

This can be easily mistaken. Their heads were turned and they heard it through their left ears.

“Dave Powers - “Someone a foot away from me or two feet away from me couldn’t fire a gun without me hearing it.”

Powers was not on the car at the time, he was running towards the JFK limo at the time Hickey fired the AR15. Look at the photo of Hickey holding the gun and Powers on the trunk of the JFK limo.
 
“Bronson film”

I can’t make out anything in the Bronson film.

“The Whole Program Miss”

Regardless where the bullet entered the back of JFK’s head, we did see the result of a frangible round blowing his head apart. And with all the melon experiments we saw what happens, small hole in the back of the head and an explosion out the front.

The purpose of Pat Speer’s “story” was to discredit Colin McLaren, Harold Donahue, and the findings in Mortal Error by Bonar Menninger. Again you have a dozen or so witnesses that smelled gun smoke, not car exhaust, gun smoke in the motorcade in line with the air flow on the motorcade. You have a dozen or so witnesses that saw Hickey with the gun, some of which thought he had fired it. That AR15 Hickey was holding was the only known source of the bullet that did that kind of damage to a human head.

Now you please tell me where the gun smoke and the frangible round came from?
Title: Re: Did the CIA assassinate JFK?
Post by: Michael Carney on September 01, 2020, 07:38:45 PM
"Fanciful recreation from a movie".

I didn't realize that....... and I was wondering about Jackies......... thought it should have been smaller than that, lol
Title: Re: Did the CIA assassinate JFK?
Post by: Jerry Organ on September 01, 2020, 10:25:26 PM
Pat Speer
"The Kennedy detail forcefully removed Kennedy's body from the hospital at the request of the Kennedy entourage, with the blessing of the new President, Lyndon B. Johnson. Kellerman's taking control of the medical evidence was performed under orders from the President's physician, George Burkley, almost certainly at the request of the Kennedy family."

Who was the “Kennedy detail”?  Who was the “Kennedy entourage”? It was Jackie Kennedy and the Secret Service. The author is just word smiting to pull the wool over our eyes so nothing there.

"The President's brain was kept at Bethesda until it could be further studied, after which Dr. Burkley, now working for President Johnson, gave it to the Secret Service Protective Research Section, where it remained until 1965. So yes, McLaren was unfair in accusing Kellerman of running off with the President's brain. Kellerman never had it in his possession."

This was just McLaren’s understanding and has nothing to do with Hickey or the shot.

“The First Shot Miss”

Again nothing to do with Hickey or the shot.

“The Second Shot Miss”

Again nothing to do with Hickey or the shot.

“Re-inspecting Number 2”

 Again nothing to do with Hickey or the shot.

Never said the whole page was going to be about the Donahue/Hickey Theory. Actually I directed you to go "near the bottom of" the page. Now Speer does have a page fully devoted to the Hickey issue called "The Smoking Gun That Lied: a Review of JFK: The Smoking Gun" ( Link (http://www.patspeer.com/the-smoking-gun-that-lied) ).

Quote
“The Third Shot Miss”

"He cites S.M. Holland's initial statement that "After the first shot the secret service man raised up in the seat with a machine gun and then dropped back down in the seat" as evidence Hickey shot Kennedy. He fails to tell his viewers that Holland also claimed to see "a puff of smoke come from the trees" after this first shot, and no other puff of smoke. That's right. The smoke observed by Holland and others while standing atop the railroad bridge came from behind the picket fence on the grassy knoll. So how can McLaren cite them as support a rifle was fired in the middle of the plaza? He can't. So he doesn't. He claims ten witnesses "at ground level" smelled gunpowder, but never lists them."

Speer seems to think there was actual "smoke" seen on the knoll. His Donahue/Hickey analysis is more grounded. Hard to argue with photos and film.

Quote
I will list them:
Witnesses to smelling gunpowder at street level:
•   Ralph Yarborough was in the car two cars behind the Presidents car and said he smelled gunpowder. He is a war veteran with more than 50 years experience with fire arms. WC Vol VII, pg 439
•   Earl Brown, Dallas Police Patrolman – “Heard shot’s and then smelled gunpowder” WC Vol VI, pg 233
•   Elizabeth Cabell, wife of Dallas mayor, said “acutely aware of the smell of gunpowder”  WC Vol VII, pg 486
•   Billy J. Martin, patrolman - “You could smell the gunpowder… you knew he wasn’t far away. When you’re that close, you can smell the powder burning. Why you—you’ve got to be pretty close to them… you could smell the gunpowder… right there in the street.”  http://educationforum.ipbhost.com/topic/19948-the-smell-of-gunpowder-in-dealey-plaza-from-murder-from-within-wind-speed-direction/ 8-30-2012
•   Congressman Ray Roberts, seated next to her, had mentioned it also. Same source as Martin
•   Tom C. Dillard, two cars behind the Cabell car, he “. . . very definitely smelled gunpowder when the cars moved up to the corner [of Elm and Houston Streets] Same source as Martin
•   Virgie Rackley stood in front of the depository building close to the street. “She recalled that after the second shot, she smelled gun smoke…” same source as Martin
•   One newspaper summed it up: “. . . seconds later the cavalcade was gone. The area still reeked with the smell of gunpowder.” Same source as Martin

Could have been car and motorcycle exhaust from when the front of the motorcycle accelerated out of the kill zone. Knowing a gun had recently been fired might have subconsciously "colored" any similar smell.

Quote
“He cites Jean Hill's statements as evidence a member of the Secret Service fired a weapon. He fails to tell his viewers that Hill thought the first shot hit Kennedy in the head, and that she thought some or all of the shots she heard after he was hit in the head may have been fired by the Secret Service in retaliation.”

Yeah, that would be Hickey

Her affidavit stated:

    "I thought I saw some men in plain clothes shooting back but
     everything was such a blur and Mary was pulling on my leg
     saying "Get down thery [sic] are shooting"."

And her testimony:

    "Mary grabbed me and was yelling and I had looked away from
     what was going on here and I thought, because I guess from the
     TV and movies, that it was Secret Service agents shooting back.
     To me, if somebody shoots at somebody they always shoot back
     and so I just thought that that's what it was and I thought, well,
     they are getting him and shooting back, you know; I didn't know."

Seems to me she's assuming certain things happened.

Quote
“He wonders whether Hugh Betzner's recollection he saw "a flash of pink" wasn't a reference to the muzzle blast from Hickey's rifle. that the flash of pink which Betzner observed, while standing 200 feet or so back behind the limousine at the moment of the head shot, was the pink-suited Mrs. Kennedy climbing out onto the back of the limousine, and then crawling back to her seat”.
The “flash of pink” was JFK’s brains be blown out and Hickey falling back down into his seat.
“Margaret Chisolm – Two men stood up and sat back down”


All he is saying is what she saw, we don’t know if McLaren tried to contact her or not.

“Bill and Gayle Newman - The sound of a shot from Hickey's position would have come straight to their left ears. And yet they thought this shot came from behind.”

This can be easily mistaken. Their heads were turned and they heard it through their left ears.

“Dave Powers - “Someone a foot away from me or two feet away from me couldn’t fire a gun without me hearing it.”

Powers was not on the car at the time, he was running towards the JFK limo at the time Hickey fired the AR15. Look at the photo of Hickey holding the gun and Powers on the trunk of the JFK limo.

I take it you mean Agent Clint Hill. Powers was sat on the passenger-side jump-seat. See below:

(https://sites.google.com/site/jfkforum/zfilm/firstshot/willis-bretzner-labelled.jpg)

Quote
“Bronson film”

I can’t make out anything in the Bronson film.

How convenient. Can only show you the water, not make you drink.

Quote
“The Whole Program Miss”

Regardless where the bullet entered the back of JFK’s head, we did see the result of a frangible round blowing his head apart. And with all the melon experiments we saw what happens, small hole in the back of the head and an explosion out the front.

The purpose of Pat Speer’s “story” was to discredit Colin McLaren, Harold Donahue, and the findings in Mortal Error by Bonar Menninger. Again you have a dozen or so witnesses that smelled gun smoke, not car exhaust, gun smoke in the motorcade in line with the air flow on the motorcade. You have a dozen or so witnesses that saw Hickey with the gun, some of which thought he had fired it. That AR15 Hickey was holding was the only known source of the bullet that did that kind of damage to a human head.

Now you please tell me where the gun smoke and the frangible round came from?

I personally think a Carcano 6.5mm bullet could account for the trail of fragments in the President's skull. And I don't believe there was "gun smoke" seen on the knoll or at the fence.

The collapse of the Donahue/Hickey Theory isn't much important. I keep the "Mortal Error" book in my "ready-access" library. It's one of the great JFK assassination books. Donahue made a mistake, but the book outlined his rationale and shared his genuine gunsmith experience.

"Best Evidence" was even more off-the-rails with its wound-alteration theory. I keep that book on the shelf, too. It's still a great read. You would do yourself a favor by looking into a few "LN" books and the Warren Report.
Title: Re: Did the CIA assassinate JFK?
Post by: Michael Carney on September 02, 2020, 01:20:16 AM
“Speer seems to think there was actual "smoke" seen on the knoll. His Donahue/Hickey analysis is more grounded. Hard to argue with photos and film.”

Hard to argue with a bunch of witnesses also.

“Could have been car and motorcycle exhaust from when the front of the motorcycle accelerated out of the kill zone. Knowing a gun had recently been fired might have subconsciously "colored" any similar smell.”

People always try to use this argument but the two gases are distinctly different. Gun powder has sulfur in it and car exhaust does not. There were several people with lots of weapons experience in the witness list, they know the different smells.

“Seems to me she's assuming certain things happened.”


Hard to say what she was thinking being under fire and all. There were plenty of other witnesses that thought Hickey had fired the gun.

“I take it you mean Agent Clint Hill. Powers was sat on the passenger-side jump-seat.”

I did mean Clint Hill

“How convenient. Can only show you the water, not make you drink.”


Sorry but it is blurry as hell.

“I personally think a Carcano 6.5mm bullet could account for the trail of fragments in the President's skull.”


Now you are a ballistics expert? Look I did a rough comparison between FMJ fragments and frangible fragments. In one hand you have a few pebbles and in the other hand you have20 or so coffee grounds, they are totally different. Ballistics expert after ballistics expert stated that FMJ rounds do not fragment when they hit a skull.

“And I don't believe there was "gun smoke" seen on the knoll or at the fence.”

You don’t believe it! Well there were plenty of witnesses that did so your “belief” doesn’t count.

“The collapse of the Donahue/Hickey Theory isn't much important.”

Dream on, it didn’t collapse, until you can tell me where the gun smoke came from and where the frangible round from the back came from, it’s alive and well.
Title: Re: Did the CIA assassinate JFK?
Post by: Jerry Freeman on September 03, 2020, 04:56:06 AM
Quote
Did the CIA assassinate JFK?
Speculation...Upon hearing that JFK 'didn't have long', Allen Dulles probably refreshed his pipe and went back to reading. 
Title: Re: Did the CIA assassinate JFK?
Post by: Jerry Freeman on September 03, 2020, 05:05:26 AM
(https://i.postimg.cc/dtBv3vpK/Clint-Hill-running.jpg) 
Fanciful recreation from a movie.
Surely Jackie's backside wasn't that big  :-\
Title: Re: Did the CIA assassinate JFK?
Post by: Jerry Freeman on September 03, 2020, 02:53:02 PM
Witnesses to smelling gunpowder at street level:
 Ralph Yarborough was in the car two cars behind the Presidents car and said he smelled gunpowder. He is a war veteran with more than 50 years experience with fire arms. WC Vol VII, pg 439
I have read that affidavit several times before and fail to see where he said anything about 'gunpowder', 'smoke', or 'smelling' anything.
In fact the senator gave in to 'three shots' and ' they were coming from high back at the building'.
Something Mrs Cabell was not supposed to say...
Quote
Mr. HUBERT. And it was about that time that you observed the odor?
Mr. CABELL. Of gunpowder.
Mr. HUBERT. That was when your car at least had come to a standstill?
Mr. CABELL. Every car in the motorcade had come to a standstill.
Title: Re: Did the CIA assassinate JFK?
Post by: Ray Mitcham on September 03, 2020, 06:41:39 PM

In fact the senator gave in to 'three shots' and ' they were coming from high back at the building'.


No, Jerry. He just stated the shots  were coming from the rear.
Title: Re: Did the CIA assassinate JFK?
Post by: Jon Banks on September 04, 2020, 04:48:52 AM
The CIA did assassinate JFK.

There are clear motives: the failed Bay of Pigs operation and terminated plans to kill Fidel Castro. JFK was first mad at the CIA because of the Bay of Pigs and he never forgave the agency for the public embarrassment. He threatened to smash the CIA into a thousand pieces and scatter it into the wind. On top of this, there are contracts between the CIA and organized crime to assassinate Castro. JFK immediately terminated these plans and sent the FBI and law enforcement to break up the CIA training camps. There is no doubt that the two had growing conflict. After the assassination, the Warren Commission sat for ten months and never hired any investigators and relied on the FBI and CIA to investigate. To no surprise, they found themselves innocent. The agency never even disclosed information about the previous plans to kill Castro to the Commission. Let's not forget a possible connection between the CIA and Lee Harvey Oswald. Around September-October of 1963, Oswald went to Mexico City and attempted to get visas from the Soviet and Cuban embassies but he failed. The agency denied knowing about this trip but documents show that they did have pre-assassination knowledge. The CIA cannot be trusted. Based on their quick response, cover-ups, and withholding of important information from the Warren Commission, the CIA obviously has something to hide.


I believe there potentially were individuals connected to the CIA involved with a conspiracy to kill JFK including Lee Harvey Oswald.

And while the CIA as an organization likely didn’t authorize the conspiracy, they were forced to cover it up due to their connections to other possible suspects in Kennedy’s murder like William King Harvey or David Morales.
Title: Re: Did the CIA assassinate JFK?
Post by: Tom Scully on September 05, 2020, 04:43:03 PM
Willie Morris, quoting Allen Dulles :

Quote
https://www.nytimes.com/1999/08/03/arts/willie-morris-64-writer-on-the-southern-experience.html
Willie Morris, 64, Writer on the Southern Experience
By Peter Applebome
Aug. 3, 1999

Willie Morris,
the writer and editor whose life and work reveled in the endless contradictions of the South and the region's ghostlike hold on its native sons and daughters, died on Monday at St. Dominic Hospital in Jackson, Miss., at 64.

The cause was heart failure, said a hospital official.

Mr. Morris, who turned his childhood in Yazoo City, Miss., into a place almost as complex and resonant as William Faulkner's Yoknapatawpha County, went from a country boy to a Rhodes Scholar to a literary Wunderkind, becoming editor in chief of Harper's Magazine at age 32.

But just as Truman Capote famously said that all Southerners eventually come home, if only in a box, Mr. Morris returned to Mississippi in 1980 and never stopped exploring what he once described as ''the old warring impulses of one's sensibility to be both Southern and American.''......

(http://jfkforum.com/images/DullesWillieMorrisLittleKennedy.jpg)
Title: Re: Did the CIA assassinate JFK?
Post by: Mark A. Oblazney on September 05, 2020, 04:59:52 PM
Willie Morris, quoting Allen Dulles :

(http://jfkforum.com/images/DullesWillieMorrisLittleKennedy.jpg)

why does no one get this, tom?
Title: Re: Did the CIA assassinate JFK?
Post by: Michael Carney on September 06, 2020, 05:03:12 AM
Jerry Freeman
Where I got the gunsmoke comments was from JKF - The Smoking Gun documentary. I am now checking Colins McCaren's sources
Title: Re: Did the CIA assassinate JFK?
Post by: Jerry Freeman on September 06, 2020, 05:35:02 AM
Jerry Freeman
Where I got the gunsmoke comments was from JKF - The Smoking Gun documentary. I am now checking Colins McCaren's sources
The senator was not called to officially state anything...he just only issued the affidavit. Ray Mitcham is correct about his shot location. The shooting started just after the VP car had turned.  Perhaps Yarborough knew more than he revealed but we'll never know for sure.
Title: Re: Did the CIA assassinate JFK?
Post by: Michael Carney on September 06, 2020, 01:54:11 PM
I confirmed that Earl Brown and Elizabeth Cabell smelled gunpowder. So I suspect that McLaren may have gotten the Ralph Yarborough info from another source.
Title: Re: Did the CIA assassinate JFK?
Post by: Bill Chapman on September 06, 2020, 03:28:56 PM
"Fanciful recreation from a movie".

I didn't realize that....... and I was wondering about Jackies......... thought it should have been smaller than that, lol

You didn't realize that butt-end view was part of a movie recreation? (I think that might be the one where Natalie Portman played Jackie)

And look at how far away from the 'Queen Mary' the Lincoln is in that recreation. Not even Usain Bolt on 'roids could sprint that fast. The limo took off like a shot: Hill actually mounted the limo within a few yards of the SS car. Not only that, who was in a position to take that photo during the actual event? No drones around in 1963, except for the politicians and conspiracy-mongers.
Title: Re: Did the CIA assassinate JFK?
Post by: Michael T. Griffith on September 06, 2020, 04:22:33 PM
I confirmed that Earl Brown and Elizabeth Cabell smelled gunpowder. So I suspect that McLaren may have gotten the Ralph Yarborough info from another source.

There is no doubt in this case. On many occasions, Senator Yarborough noted that he smelled gun powder in Dealey Plaza. He said this in writing as well, such as this comment in his letter to Earl Warren:

"Immediately after the firing of the first shot, the thought immediately went through my mind that 'that was a rifle shot.' It did not sound to me like a firecracker or a pistol, though I thought of them too, or the possibility of a small bomb. Another immediate impression that I had, was that the cavalcade had slowed down, almost stopped. . . . After the second shot, I could smell gunpowder very strongly and the rancid smell of gunpowder stayed in our nostrils for minutes as we raced toward Parkland Hospital. This caused me some difficulty, as I'd never smelt so much gunpowder from three rifle shots, and I'd begun to think that perhaps someone had thrown a small bomb in the presidential car. . . ." (Letter from Senator Ralph Yarborough to Earl Warren, 12/17/1963)

This is important evidence because Yarborough was a war veteran and an avid hunter. So he knew what gun powder smelled like.

Title: Re: Did the CIA assassinate JFK?
Post by: Michael Carney on September 06, 2020, 05:48:36 PM
I had just glanced at the picture and didn't take the time to study. Thanks for pointing that out to me.
Title: Re: Did the CIA assassinate JFK?
Post by: Bill Chapman on September 06, 2020, 05:49:19 PM
There is no doubt in this case. On many occasions, Senator Yarborough noted that he smelled gun powder in Dealey Plaza. He said this in writing as well, such as this comment in his letter to Earl Warren:

"Immediately after the firing of the first shot, the thought immediately went through my mind that 'that was a rifle shot.' It did not sound to me like a firecracker or a pistol, though I thought of them too, or the possibility of a small bomb. Another immediate impression that I had, was that the cavalcade had slowed down, almost stopped. . . . After the second shot, I could smell gunpowder very strongly and the rancid smell of gunpowder stayed in our nostrils for minutes as we raced toward Parkland Hospital. This caused me some difficulty, as I'd never smelt so much gunpowder from three rifle shots, and I'd begun to think that perhaps someone had thrown a small bomb in the presidential car. . . ." (Letter from Senator Ralph Yarborough to Earl Warren, 12/17/1963)

This is important evidence because Yarborough was a war veteran and an avid hunter. So he knew what gun powder smelled like.


Apocalypse Now

Duvall: 'I love the smell of napalm in the morning, that smell; that gasoline smell.
It smells like... victory'.

Oswald loved the smell of gunpowder in the afternoon.
It smelled like... being a somebody.
Title: Re: Did the CIA assassinate JFK?
Post by: Michael T. Griffith on September 06, 2020, 06:13:18 PM
Oswald loved the smell of gunpowder in the afternoon.
It smelled like... being a somebody.

If that's true, then why didn't Oswald do what all the other fame-seeking assassins have done and proudly take credit for his deed? Instead, he doggedly proclaimed his innocence and insisted he did not shoot anyone. Why seek fame by shooting the president and then adamantly deny you shot anyone? Makes no sense.

We know that Oswald did not fire a rifle that day because all three tests that were done on the paraffin cast of his right check, including the super-sensitive NAA test, found no traces of nitrates. Even if he had washed his face after the shooting, there would have been nitrate traces in the paraffin mold that would have been detected by NAA.

We also know from released files that seven different men took part in the FBI's paraffin experiment. To test the reliability of the paraffin test on Oswald's cheek, the FBI had seven different men fire a Carcano rifle and then undergo a paraffin test. NAA detected nitrates in the paraffin molds of the men's right cheek every single time. Every. Single. Time.
Title: Re: Did the CIA assassinate JFK?
Post by: Bill Chapman on September 06, 2020, 07:03:27 PM
If that's true, then why didn't Oswald do what all the other fame-seeking assassins have done and proudly take credit for his deed? Instead, he doggedly proclaimed his innocence and insisted he did not shoot anyone. Why seek fame by shooting the president and then adamantly deny you shot anyone? Makes no sense.

We know that Oswald did not fire a rifle that day because all three tests that were done on the paraffin cast of his right check, including the super-sensitive NAA test, found no traces of nitrates. Even if he had washed his face after the shooting, there would have been nitrate traces in the paraffin mold that would have been detected by NAA.

We also know from released files that seven different men took part in the FBI's paraffin experiment. To test the reliability of the paraffin test on Oswald's cheek, the FBI had seven different men fire a Carcano rifle and then undergo a paraffin test. NAA detected nitrates in the paraffin molds of the men's right cheek every single time. Every. Single. Time.


'What you mean we, white man?' --- Tonto to the Lone Ranger, upon finding themselves surrounded by Indians aboriginals.

In the meantime, Chef Mike, you have taken my bit of spoofing and turned it inside-out in order to once again toss yet another word-salad at those currently in attendance. That is your right. But to some attendees (for instance, those of us who don't know anything at all about the assassination [Iacoletti said that, so it must be true] are actually kinda, sorta... no, really, hoping you can help us identify those who, besides the shooter, knew that an attempt was going to made on Kennedy that day.
Title: Re: Did the CIA assassinate JFK?
Post by: Michael Carney on September 07, 2020, 06:17:52 PM
I had never heard of the paraffin test's done on Oswald or the other guys. That pretty much wraps it up, not to mention all the other evidence; lunch room, drinking a coke, etc.
As to who else knew that the assassination was going to happen, I have a long list I will post tomorrow if no one else posts today.
Title: Re: Did the CIA assassinate JFK?
Post by: Robert Reeves on September 08, 2020, 04:37:58 PM
Oswald's adult life appears to have been spent mostly in the company of deniable 'contractors' of the CIA and operating/agitating within highly sensitive areas of US national security.

Wonder why a lot of people don't trust the Warren Report
Title: Re: Did the CIA assassinate JFK?
Post by: Michael Carney on September 08, 2020, 05:39:58 PM
Who knew about the assassination prior to it happening: Carlos Marcello, Santo Trafficante, Frank Costello, Sam Giancana, and the teams of shooters and other ground support people. If Oswald knew then probably the CIA knew.
Folks that probably knew: LBJ, J Edgar Hoover, Johnny Rosselli, Jimmy Hoffa
Title: Re: Did the CIA assassinate JFK?
Post by: John Iacoletti on September 09, 2020, 08:56:48 PM
'What you mean we, white man?' --- Tonto to the Lone Ranger, upon finding themselves surrounded by Indians aboriginals.

In the meantime, Chef Mike, you have taken my bit of spoofing and turned it inside-out in order to once again toss yet another word-salad at those currently in attendance.

What you call "word salad" is somebody discussing relevant evidence of the case.  Too bad if that interferes with your "bit of spoofing", which is all you ever "contribute".

Quote
That is your right. But to some attendees (for instance, those of us who don't know anything at all about the assassination [Iacoletti said that, so it must be true] are actually kinda, sorta... no, really, hoping you can help us identify those who, besides the shooter, knew that an attempt was going to made on Kennedy that day.

Who is "us", kimosabe?  Bull.  You're not here to try to identify anything.  You think your faith-based belief is the default answer.
Title: Re: Did the CIA assassinate JFK?
Post by: Zeon Mason on September 11, 2020, 08:10:30 AM
Given the probability that GHW Bush supplied those ships for the BOP invasion (named Barbara 1, Barbara 2, etc,, and given a photo of that remarkable my fits image of GHWB in Dealey Plaza Nov 22/63 and GWHB having no recall of where he was on Nov 22/63

And giiven his rapid rise to Director is CIA by 75 and the subsequent coincidental death of George De Motenschield by shotgun in mouth after writing lettter to GHWB enquiring what to say at the HSCA

And given then becoming VP to Reagan (who disliked Bush) and then GHWB covertly arranging Iran Contra

And then GHWB elected POTUS and completely goes globalist (anti Reagan) and announces the “New World Order” and unleashes 30 year war and mayhem

Um,... HELL YES, it’s very plausible that CIA had at the very least knowledge a plot was underway if not outright orchestrated with likes of a James Angelton counter intelligence CIA director in the mix