JFK Assassination Forum
JFK Assassination Discussion & Debate => JFK Assassination Discussion & Debate => Topic started by: Steve Thomas on March 15, 2018, 04:53:43 PM
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Were Lee Harvey Oswald's fingerprints - more specfically his thumbprint - found on the live shell in the chamber of the rifle that was found?
I don't know if fingerprints on a shell are obliterated by the act of firing the gun, but they should still be on the unfired bullet wouldn't they? I don't know much about loading bullets into a clip, but don't you have to press down on the bullet to get it into the clip?
Wouldn't his thumprint still be on it?
Steve Thomas
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Were Lee Harvey Oswald's fingerprints - more specfically his thumbprint - found on the live shell in the chamber of the rifle that was found?
I don't know if fingerprints on a shell are obliterated by the act of firing the gun, but they should still be on the unfired bullet wouldn't they? I don't know much about loading bullets into a clip, but don't you have to press down on the bullet to get it into the clip?
Wouldn't his thumprint still be on it?
Steve Thomas
I don't know if fingerprints on a shell are obliterated by the act of firing the gun, but they should still be on the unfired bullet wouldn't they?
My experience is the firing of the cartridge actually burns any print onto the brass shell.... Firing the shell with a finger print on it makes the print more visible. And Captain Fritz picked up the live round after it FELL OUT (not ejected) onto the floor at his feet....so he would have obscured any prints that might have been on the live round, when he picked it up.
I don't know much about loading bullets into a clip, but don't you have to press down on the bullet to get it into the clip? Wouldn't his thumprint still be on it?
Good thinking.... but loading the clip of cartridges wouldn't necessarily cause prints to be deposited ......It depends on how carefully the person loaded the clip. ( the fact that there were no prints on any of the shells indicates that Lee Oswald was not the person who handled them. Lee would have known that a blind man could have traced the rifle to him. and since that's true, then there would have been no reason to wipe his prints off any of the shells or the rifle.
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Article I have found says that investigator Walt Brown in 1998 found the fingerprint of Malcolm Wallace on the 6th floor.
http://spartacus-educational.com/JFKwallaceM.htm
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Article I have found says that investigator Walt Brown in 1998 found the fingerprint of Malcolm Wallace on the 6th floor.
http://spartacus-educational.com/JFKwallaceM.htm
As of Sept 1964, there wasn't an unidentified fingerprint that had been found on the 6th floor. There was an unidentified palm print.
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I have heard that from other people on here as well. Link to the article that says that, please?
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I have heard that from other people on here as well. Link to the article that says that, please?
https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=11902#relPageId=20&tab=page
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After dissembling the MC and placing it in the paper bag, Oswald reassembled it in the SN and didn't get a single print on the stock, barrel, trigger, clip, ammo or scope. The FBI resorted to getting a palm print on the stock post-mortem. You do the math. How was that possible?
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After dissembling the MC and placing it in the paper bag, Oswald reassembled it in the SN and didn't get a single print on the stock, barrel, trigger, clip, ammo or scope. The FBI resorted to getting a palm print on the stock post-mortem. You do the math. How was that possible?
It wasn't possible. It never happened. The palm print was lifted off of the barrel by Carl Day on Nov 22.
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one palm print on box ::)
he lifted and placed box with just one bare hand I guess lolz
But he made sure not leave any fingerprints on the other big box underneath nor on the box carefully balanced precariously on the window ledge.
They didn't bother dust window frame, even though Arnold Rowland said when saw the black man at 12:25 pm there, that the window was almost half open, which means if BRW didn't lower window, that the shooter MUST have, and so touched it with bare hands if its Oswald who didn't have gloves. Dusting that window could have proved somebody else lowered it, not Oswald, SO DONT MESS WITH IT.. because LBJ made phone call to Fritz and the case is cinched so avoid any possibility of other prints being found
there were no fingerprints found on the boxes where rifle wedge between, nor any Oswald fingerprints found on the 2nd floor lunchroom door or the outer vestibule door, nor on the door of the 2nd floor office that Oswald alledgedly opened and seen by Mrs Reid, nor on the exit door Oswald exited office from.
the coke, that Oswald had in hand, where it went who knows, there was one Dr.Pepper bottle found on the 6th floor and another bottle found on the front entrance steps of TSBD none them had any fingerprints. Nor the chicken bone bag.
So fingerprints on this day of Nov 22 1963 were only l found to support the WC preconceived theory Oswald did it, and any other fingerprint areas not tested, or fingerprints like one that matches Malcolm Wallace with 37 pts, not mentioned. Or any other items with other prints not investigated whose those prints belonged too.
Were there any prints at the Tippet shooting scene from Oswald. No, none found. No prints on those bullets Oswald supposedly took out the pistol one by one with his bare fingers tossing them on the ground. None found on the side of Tippets right side car door where Oswald placed his hands according to Markam witness.
No fingerprints on that bus transfer ticket eithe from McWatters the bus driver who had to cut it and hand it to Oswald, nor any of Oswalds, who had to take it from McWatters with a bare hand, and place it in his shirt pocket.
No fiingprints apperently taken from front door of Oswalds boarding house.
Where there Oswalds fingerprints on the entrance door of the Texas Theater? They didnt bother try dusting that door.
What about the front door of TSBD or the read door of TSBD? Any attempt to dust those doors for prints. No.
What about the Domino room? any attempt dust for Oswalds prints there, or in the 2nd floor lunchroom where Carolyn Arnold said he was sitting at table eathing his lunch. No. Why bother, the idea is Oswald is GUILTY.. dont mess that up.
Butch Burroughs said sold popcorn to Oswald. Did they attempt find popcorn box and dust for prints.. NO. because if they had and they found Oswalds prints, then Burroughs gives Oswald alibi of being in the Theater between 1:00 and !:07pm.
Any attempt made to find the ticket stubs and see if any had Oswald prints cause he might actually bought a ticket from the ticket girl and why shes very upset and confused when exactly she saw Oswald. Maybe a fingerprint on ticketstub would have proved Oswald bought ticket at 1:00pm. So DONT LOOK THERE, dont want mess up the He DONE it WC theory.
What about William Wallys taxi cab? Any prints Oswald found on door? Did they bother attempt dust the door? No.
Any prints on the bus door of McWatters bus that Oswald supposedly pounded on with his fist?
No. No one thought to dust door for prints. Or the seat Oswald sat in on the bus. Any fibers from his jacket brown shirt on the seat?
What about foot prints. Any footprints found at Tippet scene linked ot Oswalds shoes? anywhere from the TSBD SN 6th floor to his eventual capture at Theater, any shoe prints found. No.
And shoe prints on front floorboard of Wallys taxi matching Oswalds shoe? uh no, didnt bother with that.
Any found in Brewers store. Oswald prints on the entrance door he had to open twice?
No.
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Were Lee Harvey Oswald's fingerprints - more specfically his thumbprint - found on the live shell in the chamber of the rifle that was found?
I don't know if fingerprints on a shell are obliterated by the act of firing the gun, but they should still be on the unfired bullet wouldn't they? I don't know much about loading bullets into a clip, but don't you have to press down on the bullet to get it into the clip?
Wouldn't his thumprint still be on it?
Steve Thomas
Were Lee Harvey Oswald's fingerprints - more specfically his thumbprint - found on the live shell in the chamber of the rifle that was found?
I don't know if fingerprints on a shell are obliterated by the act of firing the gun, but they should still be on the unfired bullet wouldn't they? I don't know much about loading bullets into a clip, but don't you have to press down on the bullet to get it into the clip?
Wouldn't his thumprint still be on it?
Steve Thomas
I guess I should have looked this ahead of time:
http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/russ/testimony/day1.htm
Mr. DAY. That is the live round that fell from the rifle when Captain Fritz opened the bolt.
Mr. BELIN. What did you do with this after you put your name on it?
Mr. DAY. Captain Fritz took possession of it. I retained possession of the rifle.
Mr. BELIN. Did you process this live round at all for prints?
Mr. DAY. Yes, sir; I did. I did not find any prints.
How is this possible?
Mr. BELIN. How did you try to process the live round for prints?
Mr. DAY. With black fingerprint powder.
Mr. DAY. After ejecting the live round, then I gave my attention to the rifle.
When was this live round dusted for prints?
In his Report, Day wrote:
Mr. DAY. "When bolt opened one live round was in the barrel. No prints are on the live round. Captain Fritz and Lieutenant Day opened the barrel. Captain Fritz has the live round.
So, neither Oswald's, nor Fritz's prints were on the live round.
How did Fritz handle this piece of evidence? Did he put it in an evidence bag? Did he put it in his pocket?
Steve Thomas
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It wasn't possible. It never happened. The palm print was lifted off of the barrel by Carl Day on Nov 22.
Of course it was. He just forgot to photograph it or tell anybody about it on Nov 22.
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I guess I should have looked this ahead of time:
http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/russ/testimony/day1.htm
Mr. DAY. That is the live round that fell from the rifle when Captain Fritz opened the bolt.
Mr. BELIN. What did you do with this after you put your name on it?
Mr. DAY. Captain Fritz took possession of it. I retained possession of the rifle.
Mr. BELIN. Did you process this live round at all for prints?
Mr. DAY. Yes, sir; I did. I did not find any prints.
How is this possible?
Mr. BELIN. How did you try to process the live round for prints?
Mr. DAY. With black fingerprint powder.
Mr. DAY. After ejecting the live round, then I gave my attention to the rifle.
When was this live round dusted for prints?
In his Report, Day wrote:
Mr. DAY. "When bolt opened one live round was in the barrel. No prints are on the live round. Captain Fritz and Lieutenant Day opened the barrel. Captain Fritz has the live round.
So, neither Oswald's, nor Fritz's prints were on the live round.
How did Fritz handle this piece of evidence? Did he put it in an evidence bag? Did he put it in his pocket?
Steve Thomas
I remember reading the affidavit of someone who was there ( possibly Weitzman?) who said that the live round fell out at Captain Friz feet , and he simply picked it up and put it in his pocket.
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Sure it was. Now, where is your evidence for this claim?
Day lifted the smudge that he imagined might be a palm print "off underside gun barrell (sic) near end of forgrip " C2766) when he was dusting the rifle for prints on the sixth floor at about 1:45 that afternoon. Tom Alyea was right there watching and he witnessed Day lift that smudge and place it on the 3" X 5" white card that is now CE 634.
The story of disassembling the rifle and finding a palm print on the 5/8" diameter barrel is simply BS.
Day lifted the smudge from he WOODEN foregrip ....That foregrip has a bayonet slot cut into the wood to allow the bayonet blade to be folded back into that slot . The slot is visible in the photo CE 634.....
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Where is your supporting evidence for these claims?
Rob, You've been around long enough to know the facts.....If you don't know that I'm posting the truth, then nothing I post will help you....
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JFK Assassination Conspiracy
Could Finally be Solved After
55 Years Thanks to Brit Firm?s
Work to Extract Fingerprints
from Bullets
https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/5647485/jfk-assassination-death-who-shot-bullets-finger-prints-technology/
Were Lee Harvey Oswald's fingerprints - more specfically his thumbprint - found on the live shell in the chamber of the rifle that was found?
I don't know if fingerprints on a shell are obliterated by the act of firing the gun, but they should still be on the unfired bullet wouldn't they? I don't know much about loading bullets into a clip, but don't you have to press down on the bullet to get it into the clip?
Wouldn't his thumprint still be on it?
Steve Thomas
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There were also no fingerprints of LHO on the wall, window ledge, the pipe near the window or floor. How is that possible?
What were the extent of LHO's prints on the 6th floor? He should have had his prints all over it including the boxes near the SN and the door handles. If his prints were not on the door handles, then he was either wearing gloves or else he wasn't there. No gloves were found.
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Are we to assume parts of the FBI were actually objectively investigating, or was it all a game of cat and mouse, power and blackmail?
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Are we to assume parts of the FBI were actually objectively investigating, or was it all a game of cat and mouse, power and blackmail?
Not every FBI agent was crooked or involved with the cover up....As a matter of fact very few FBI agents were Hoover's "Extra Special" Special agents. BUT.... J.Edgar Hoover ruled with an iron fist.... And every FBI agent knew that he would have to "toe the mark" drawn by Hoover or else....
Just as most German officers did not subscribe to Hitler's insane ideas...they knew that if they didn't "toe the line" drawn by Hitler they would pay the price.....
IOW....Hoover played the fiddle....and his FBI special agents either danced to Hoover's tune or else.....
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As I figured, you have NONE. No surprise there since the evidence shows that Day lifted nothing off of CE 139.
No Rob... As usual you refuse to accept information and believe BS....
I could cite you chapter and verse that reveals the FACT that Day lifted that smudge from the wooden foregrip of the carcano while he was examining the rifle in the TSBD at about 1:45 that afternoon...and Tom Alyea is on record as watching detective Day lift the smudge that later became CE 634 ..... But to present that again would be a waste of my time just as our debate about the clip being ejected like the clip from an M-1 was a waste of time ....
You will accept BS if it fits with some theory you like.....while ignoring solid facts.
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As I figured, you have NONE. No surprise there since the evidence shows that Day lifted nothing off of CE 139.
Tom Alyea wrote:
Shortly after we arrived back on the 6th floor, Deputy Eugene Boone located the assassin's rifle almost completely hidden by some overhanging boxes near the stairwell. I filmed it as it was found. In my shot, the figure of Captain Fritz is standing within the enclosure next to the rifle. He knew then that the possibility of a fire fight with the sniper had greatly diminished. He dispatched one of his men to go down and call for the crime lab. About fifteen minutes later, Lt. Day and Studebaker arrived. Still pictures were taken of the positioning of the rifle, then Lt. Day slid it out from its hiding place and held it up for all of us to see. The world has seen my shot of this many times. Lt. Day immediately turned toward the window behind him and started dusting the weapon for fingerprints. Day was still within the enclosure formed by the surrounding boxes. I filmed him lifting prints from the rifle. He lifted them off with scotch tape and placed them on little white cards.
We know that only partial prints were found on the rifle's trigger guard and Day did not lift those partial prints...He merely placed cellophane tape on them to protect them from being damaged before he could examine them in the police lab. So that cannot be what Alyea saw Day lift and place on white card......
What print do we have that might be the one that Alyea saw Day lift??
The only print of a lift is the so called "palm print" ( CE 634) and it was listed on the evidence list of the evidence that was turned over to the FBI at midnight.
The story of detective Day disassembling the rifle and discovering a palm print on the small diameter metal barrel is simply a fabrication and a damned lie.....
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How does the infrequency of Oswald's prints compare to someone who was actually there and did the deed? The only explanation for you LNers is that Oswald must have worn gloves. So are you sticking with that?
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How does the infrequency of Oswald's prints compare to someone who was actually there and did the deed? The only explanation for you LNers is that Oswald must have worn gloves. So are you sticking with that?
What do criminologists and forensic scientists say about finding identifiable prints on weapons? Or in general at crime scenes? . Let's limit it to firearms since that's the issue you raised. Not only today but fifty plus years ago? This is not the movies; this is real life.
So, what do the experts say? Have you researched the issue? Yes, this is a challenge because I've read what they say. And you won't like it.
For example, from a 1997 article published in "The Journal of Forensic Identification":
"Latent fingerprint examiners generally know that even when cutting edge technology such as cyanoacrylate fuming and laser/forensic light source examination are utilized, successful development of latent prints on firearms is difficult to achieve. In reality, very few identifiable latent prints are found on firearms, a fact that has been discussed in both the literature and the judicial system."
And that's not an anecdote.
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What do criminologists and forensic scientists say about finding identifiable prints on weapons? Or in general at crime scenes? . Let's limit it to firearms since that's the issue you raised. Not only today but fifty plus years ago? This is not the movies; this is real life.
So, what do the experts say? Have you researched the issue? Yes, this is a challenge because I've read what they say. And you won't like it.
For example, from a 1997 article published in "The Journal of Forensic Identification":
"Latent fingerprint examiners generally know that even when cutting edge technology such as cyanoacrylate fuming and laser/forensic light source examination are utilized, successful development of latent prints on firearms is difficult to achieve. In reality, very few identifiable latent prints are found on firearms, a fact that has been discussed in both the literature and the judicial system."
And that's not an anecdote.
So that explains why Oswald didn't leave a single print on the stock, barrel, trigger, clip, ammo and scope of the MC after he disassembled then reassembled it in the TSBD. Is that what those latent fingerprint examiners are suggesting or are you?
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So that explains why Oswald didn't leave a single print on the stock, barrel, trigger, clip, ammo and scope of the MC after he disassembled then reassembled it in the TSBD. Is that what those latent fingerprint examiners are suggesting or are you?
Lee Oswald didn't leave a print on the stock, barrel, trigger, clip, ammo or scope of the MC after he disassembled then reassembled it in the TSBD.....because he never disassembled or reassembled that Carcano that day.
If anybody has solid proof that Lee Oswald handled that Carcano that day, then please... please.... present the proof.
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As I figured, you have NONE. No surprise there since the evidence shows that Day lifted nothing off of CE 139.
Tom Alyea wrote:
"Shortly after we arrived back on the 6th floor, Deputy Eugene Boone located the assassin's rifle almost completely hidden by some overhanging boxes near the stairwell. I filmed it as it was found. In my shot, the figure of Captain Fritz is standing within the enclosure next to the rifle. He knew then that the possibility of a fire fight with the sniper had greatly diminished. He dispatched one of his men to go down and call for the crime lab. About fifteen minutes later, Lt. Day and Studebaker arrived. Still pictures were taken of the positioning of the rifle, then Lt. Day slid it out from its hiding place and held it up for all of us to see. The world has seen my shot of this many times. Lt. Day immediately turned toward the window behind him and started dusting the weapon for fingerprints. Day was still within the enclosure formed by the surrounding boxes. I FILMED HIM LIFTING PRINTS FROM THE RIFLE He lifted them off with scotch tape and placed them on little white cards."
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He dispatched one of his men to go down and call for the crime lab. About fifteen minutes later, Lt. Day and Studebaker arrived.
But Day/Studebaker were already there in the SN...
Yes, You're right...I think Alyea mixed up the chronology.....or Alyea simply used the wrong words.
"He knew then that the possibility of a fire fight with the sniper had greatly diminished. He dispatched one of his men to go down and call for the crime lab. About fifteen minutes later, Lt. Day and Studebaker arrived."
I believe that Alyea probably didn't know that Day & Studebaker were the men who Fritz was requesting when he heard Fritz tell a subordinate to get the crime lab detectives on the scene.....
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I believe that Alyea probably didn't know that Day & Studebaker were the men who Fritz was requesting when he heard Fritz tell a subordinate to get the crime lab detectives on the scene.....
Maybe...but the rifle was found by the stairwell so he got both the man going down wrong and the timing wrong, and in response to Tony:
(Version 1)
Mr. BALL. When the rifle was found, were you there?
Mr. SIMS. No, sir; we were still on the sixth floor where the hulls were, I believe.
Mr. BALL. Did you see anyone pick the rifle up off the floor?
Mr. SIMS. Yes, sir; I believe Lieutenant Day--he dusted the rifle there for fingerprints.
Mr. BALL. And did you see Fritz do anything?
Mr. SIMS. Yes, sir; he took it and ejected a live round of ammunition out of the rifle.
Mr. BALL. Do you know who took possession of that live round?
Mr. SIMS. No, sir; I don't.
(Version 2 - memory fix by Fritz)
Mr. BELIN. Now what caused you to remember now what you actually did with the hulls? I mean, what refreshed your recollection as to that?
Mr. SIMS. Talked to Captain Fritz, and I remember we was going over to where the rifle, someone had found the rifle in the meantime, and we was walking over to where the rifle was found, and he told me to be sure and get the hulls.
Mr. BELIN. What did you do then?
Mr. SIMS. Well, I went over to where the rifle was found, and went back later to where the hulls were.
Mr. BELIN. Were the hulls still in the location you left them for being dusted for fingerprints?
Mr. SIMS. Yes, sir; they were still taking pictures.
Mr. BELIN. Were they still taking pictures, or dusting them?
Mr. SIMS. I hadn't picked them up. They were still, as far as I can remember, taking pictures, because Captain Fritz left two officers to preserve the scene.
Mr. BELIN. When you got back, what did you do after they got through with the pictures?
Mr. SIMS. When he got through with the scenery I picked the hulls up.
Mr. BELIN. Was it then that he dusted them, or what?
Mr.s. SIMS. Yes, sir.
Versus
Mr. DAY. I released them to Detective Sims or rather he took them.
Mr. BELIN. And then what did you do?
Mr. DAY. At that time I was summoned to the northwest corner of the building.
Maybe...but the rifle was found by the stairwell so he got both the man going down wrong and the timing wrong, and in response to Tony:
I know that Tom Alyea was not 100% accurate in recalling the event to mind.....No doubt about that,because he said that Seymour Weitzman wasn't there on the sixth floor.... and Weitzman definitely was there.
And he thinks that Lee Oswald was guilty even though he KNOWS without any doubt that the Dallas Police created fake photos and presented those fakes as evidence against Lee Oswald. He has clearly stated that he abhors the lies that the DPD created. Any thinking, reasonable person with his knowledge should have serious doubts about Lee Oswald's guilt.
But the only point I'm attempting to show at this time is the FACT... FACT... that Tom Alyea watched detective Day as he LIFTED the the so called "palm print" quote: " lifted off underside gun barrel near end of foregrip C 2766 " unquote.
This lays bare one of the key lies that Tom Alyea abhors....The lie that detective Day disassembled the rifle and found a palm print on the small 5/8" diameter ( diameter of a AA penlight battery) . Day found a Smudge on the underside of the WOODEN foregrip that he though might be a palm print and he lifted that smudge as Tom Alyea watched....
The FBI received that 3 X 5 white card on Saturday 11/23/63 and reported that the smudge was unidentifiable as a palm print and it was useless for identification purposes.
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But the only point I'm attempting to show at this time is the FACT... FACT... that Tom Alyea watched detective Day as he LIFTED the the so called "palm print" quote: " lifted off underside gun barrel near end of foregrip C 2766 " unquote.
Understood, adding this to the equation (prints on trigger guard):
Mr. LATONA. No, sir ; I don't think so. In fact, I think we got the prints just like they were. There had, in addition to this rifle and that paper bag, which I received on the 23d--there had also been submitted to me some photographs which had been taken by the Dallas Police Department, at least alleged to have been taken by them, of these prints on this trigger guard which they developed. I examined the photographs very closely and I still could not determine any latent value in the photograph. [...]
Why would they pass those photographs on with the rifle but NOT the actual lift by Day?
Good point!.....But the evidence inventory list that was typed up that night DOES list the "partial palm print"....so we know that the story about detective Day disassembling the rifle and discovering the palm print is a crock!
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Alyea did what he was told as he relied on the DPD's approval for a good bit of his work. Haven't you ever wondered why he was the only one allowed in and film?
There was no evidence for Day's claim.
Haven't you ever wondered why he was the only one allowed in and film?
Yes I have.....But if you are implying that Tom Alyea was a nefarious part of the conspiracy or the cover up, I certainly would disagree. Alyea seems to be a bit confused about the case....He definitely has exhibited his lack of solid reasoning and commonsense.
I think the fact that he was in the TSBD at the time the planted evidence was being discovered is probably one of those cases where a person just happens to be in the right place at the right time.
There was no evidence for Day's claim.
What claim?
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Tom Alyea wrote:
"Shortly after we arrived back on the 6th floor, Deputy Eugene Boone located the assassin's rifle almost completely hidden by some overhanging boxes near the stairwell. I filmed it as it was found. In my shot, the figure of Captain Fritz is standing within the enclosure next to the rifle. He knew then that the possibility of a fire fight with the sniper had greatly diminished. He dispatched one of his men to go down and call for the crime lab. About fifteen minutes later, Lt. Day and Studebaker arrived. Still pictures were taken of the positioning of the rifle, then Lt. Day slid it out from its hiding place and held it up for all of us to see. The world has seen my shot of this many times. Lt. Day immediately turned toward the window behind him and started dusting the weapon for fingerprints. Day was still within the enclosure formed by the surrounding boxes. I FILMED HIM LIFTING PRINTS FROM THE RIFLE He lifted them off with scotch tape and placed them on little white cards."
I'm praying that someone will engage me in a intelligent discussion based on the above.......
Here's the problem.... Tom Alyea says that he watched as detective Day lifted prints ( that's PRINTS meaning more than one print)
We do have one print that was lifted from the wooden foregrip of a model 91/38 carcano rifle. LBJ's cover up committee gave us that photo of the lifted print an it is identified as CE 634. The also gave us a BS story about how CE 634 came to be.
Now to the crux of the matter.... Tom Alyea said that he saw AND FILMED detective Day lift PRINTS from the rifle....
Detective Day is on record as stating that he saw PRINTS on the rifle when he dusted the rifle for prints in the TSND at about 1:45 that afternoon. Day said that he placed cellophane tape over the prints on the trigger guard to protect the prints until he could get to the police lab and examine the prints under better conditions. However there are dozens of photos of detective Day carrying the carcano as he departs the TSBD with the carcano....and there is NO cellophane tape on the trigger guard of the rifle.
We do have FBI photos that were taken of the trigger guard (magazine) which show a small bit of someone's finger prints. And those photos appear to show the remnants of prints that were left behind on the magazine after someone lifted the major portion of the finger prints.
SO the question I have is:.....Was Tom Alyea correct when he said that he watched detective Day lift prints ( plural) from the carcano? Did Day find prints that obviously were not Lee Harrrrvey Ossssswald's, who was the patsy and arch villain ??
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I'm praying that someone will engage me in a intelligent discussion based on the above.......
Here's the problem.... Tom Alyea says that he watched as detective Day lifted prints ( that's PRINTS meaning more than one print)
We do have one print that was lifted from the wooden foregrip of a model 91/38 carcano rifle. LBJ's cover up committee gave us that photo of the lifted print an it is identified as CE 634. The also gave us a BS story about how CE 634 came to be.
Now to the crux of the matter.... Tom Alyea said that he saw AND FILMED detective Day lift PRINTS from the rifle....
Detective Day is on record as stating that he saw PRINTS on the rifle when he dusted the rifle for prints in the TSND at about 1:45 that afternoon. Day said that he placed cellophane tape over the prints on the trigger guard to protect the prints until he could get to the police lab and examine the prints under better conditions. However there are dozens of photos of detective Day carrying the carcano as he departs the TSBD with the carcano....and there is NO cellophane tape on the trigger guard of the rifle.
We do have FBI photos that were taken of the trigger guard (magazine) which show a small bit of someone's finger prints. And those photos appear to show the remnants of prints that were left behind on the magazine after someone lifted the major portion of the finger prints.
SO the question I have is:.....Was Tom Alyea correct when he said that he watched detective Day lift prints ( plural) from the carcano? Did Day find prints that obviously were not Lee Harrrrvey Ossssswald's, who was the patsy and arch villain ??
What happened to Alyea's film?
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What happened to Alyea's film?
Alyea, says it was cut back at the studio and thrown away..... And it might have been. ?? But I'd bet Hoover extra special special agents destroyed that film.
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So that explains why Oswald didn't leave a single print on the stock, barrel, trigger, clip, ammo and scope of the MC after he disassembled then reassembled it in the TSBD. Is that what those latent fingerprint examiners are suggesting or are you?
Again, what do the forensics experts who study these matters say about finding prints on firearms? I don't know anything about the matter; certainly not about their ability to recover them from firearms in 1963.
Your disagreement is with forensic science and facts and not me. As I said, this is real life and not the movies or television - CSI Dallas doesn't exist. I've said nothing about the issue because I have no knowledge on it. They do. And those experts I've read say it is very difficult to recover prints from firearms. So isn't that the likely explanation?
Can you cite forensic experts who say that there should have been numerous identifiable prints of Oswald on the rifle? It's your claim; you need to support it.
Question: How many prints of Oswald are needed to show he handled the rifle? Ten? Twelve? Isn't one enough?
Why didn't all of these powerful groups that you think pulled off this coup place more of his prints on the rifle? I assume you think they planted them, right? Because he never owned that rifle and the only reason any did appear is because they planted them? Correct?
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What do criminologists and forensic scientists say about finding identifiable prints on weapons? Or in general at crime scenes? . Let's limit it to firearms since that's the issue you raised. Not only today but fifty plus years ago? This is not the movies; this is real life.
So, what do the experts say? Have you researched the issue? Yes, this is a challenge because I've read what they say. And you won't like it.
For example, from a 1997 article published in "The Journal of Forensic Identification":
"Latent fingerprint examiners generally know that even when cutting edge technology such as cyanoacrylate fuming and laser/forensic light source examination are utilized, successful development of latent prints on firearms is difficult to achieve. In reality, very few identifiable latent prints are found on firearms, a fact that has been discussed in both the literature and the judicial system."
And that's not an anecdote.
Right on.
There's about a 5-10% chance that any usuable fingerprints will be found on the firearms in any given crime, even today, let alone 1963.
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I filmed him lifting prints from the rifle. He lifted them off with scotch tape and placed them on little white cards.
If this is true, then what happened to the other "little white cards"? And how do you know that CE 637 was one of them?
The only print of a lift is the so called "palm print" ( CE 634) and it was listed on the evidence list of the evidence that was turned over to the FBI at midnight.
Except the evidence list in question is undated. And Vince Drain (who received the evidence) knew nothing about the magic palmprint. And again, the magic palmprint is CE 637, not CE 634.
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What do criminologists and forensic scientists say about finding identifiable prints on weapons? Or in general at crime scenes? . Let's limit it to firearms since that's the issue you raised. Not only today but fifty plus years ago? This is not the movies; this is real life.
So, what do the experts say? Have you researched the issue? Yes, this is a challenge because I've read what they say. And you won't like it.
For example, from a 1997 article published in "The Journal of Forensic Identification":
"Latent fingerprint examiners generally know that even when cutting edge technology such as cyanoacrylate fuming and laser/forensic light source examination are utilized, successful development of latent prints on firearms is difficult to achieve. In reality, very few identifiable latent prints are found on firearms, a fact that has been discussed in both the literature and the judicial system."
And that's not an anecdote.
Good thing they were able to beat the odds and "find" Oswald's partials on the long bag and supposedly on the rifle just when they needed to, huh?
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Yes I have.....But if you are implying that Tom Alyea was a nefarious part of the conspiracy or the cover up, I certainly would disagree. Alyea seems to be a bit confused about the case....He definitely has exhibited his lack of solid reasoning and commonsense.
Except for that bit about lifting prints and putting them on cards. That you can take to the bank because Walt says so.
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If this is true, then what happened to the other "little white cards"? And how do you know that CE 637 was one of them?
Except the evidence list in question is undated. And Vince Drain (who received the evidence) knew nothing about the magic palmprint. And again, the magic palmprint is CE 637, not CE 634.
Vince Drain???..... Are you kidding.... Or are you actually this naive?
And again, the magic palmprint is CE 637, not CE 634.
Have you not noticed that nearly all of the evidence is identified by two different CE numbers.... All the better to confuse you my dear...
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If this is true, then what happened to the other "little white cards"? And how do you know that CE 637 was one of them?
Except the evidence list in question is undated. And Vince Drain (who received the evidence) knew nothing about the magic palmprint. And again, the magic palmprint is CE 637, not CE 634.
If this is true, then what happened to the other "little white cards"? And how do you know that CE 637 was one of them?
If you don't believe Tom Alyea, then you must believe he invented the account. So you believe Alyea fabricated the tale out of thin air? Do you think that's reasonable? ....and for what reason would Alyea create such a lie?
We know for a fact that there is at least one little white card that fits the description presented by Mr Alyea.
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Vince Drain???..... Are you kidding.... Or are you actually this naive?
Well, let's see. Does Vince Drain have 84 fabrications?
And again, the magic palmprint is CE 637, not CE 634.
Have you not noticed that nearly all of the evidence is identified by two different CE numbers.... All the better to confuse you my dear...
Have you actually looked at CE 634? It has ZERO to do with the magic palmprint.
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If you don't believe Tom Alyea, then you must believe he invented the account. So you believe Alyea fabricated the tale out of thin air? Do you think that's reasonable? ....and for what reason would Alyea create such a lie?
Or he just has a poor memory -- not unlike yourself.
If Day was lifting prints with scotch tape and placing them on little white cards, then where are the little white cards?
We know for a fact that there is at least one little white card that fits the description presented by Mr Alyea.
That nobody, including Day himself, ever mentioned before November 26.
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Or he just has a poor memory -- not unlike yourself.
If Day was lifting prints with scotch tape and placing them on little white cards, then where are the little white cards?
That nobody, including Day himself, ever mentioned before November 26.
So you actually believe that Tom Alyea invented the whole story with no basis what-so-ever ....
That's not very rational is it? We do have one card that corroborates Tom Alyea's report.....
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So you actually believe that Tom Alyea invented the whole story with no basis what-so-ever ....
When did I say that?
That's not very rational is it? We do have one card that corroborates Tom Alyea's report.....
It doesn't corroborate Tom Alyea's report though. If Day actually lifted a print in the TSBD, why wouldn't he just say that?
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When did I say that?
It doesn't corroborate Tom Alyea's report though. If Day actually lifted a print in the TSBD, why wouldn't he just say that?
It doesn't corroborate Tom Alyea's report though.
It doesn't??? CE 634 fits the description of the cards that Tom Alyea said he saw. Alyea said he watched and filmed detective Day as he lifted finger prints from the rifle and then place the lift on 3 x 5 white cards ....and CE 634 is in fact a 3" x 5" white card with a piece of cellophane tape stuck to it, and that tape purportedly has a palm print on it.
I don't believe that smudge is actually a "palm print" but I do know that the image on the right hand side of the photo is an exact match for the bayonet slot on the foregrip of a model 91/38 Mannlicher carcano.
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It doesn't corroborate Tom Alyea's report though.
It doesn't??? CE 634 fits the description of the cards that Tom Alyea said he saw. Alyea said he watched and filmed detective Day as he lifted finger prints from the rifle and then place the lift on 3 x 5 white cards ....and CE 634 is in fact a 3" x 5" white card with a piece of cellophane tape stuck to it, and that tape purportedly has a palm print on it.
No, in fact it is not.
(https://www.history-matters.com/archive/jfk/wc/wcvols/wh17/pages/WH_Vol17_0157b.jpg)
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No, in fact it is not.
(https://www.history-matters.com/archive/jfk/wc/wcvols/wh17/pages/WH_Vol17_0157b.jpg)
Oops.... I apologize....My mistake....No wonder you're confused....I was referring to CE 639.... NOT CE 634 .
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Oops.... I apologize....My mistake....No wonder you're confused....I was referring to CE 639.... NOT CE 634 .
The confusion is all yours.
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The confusion is all yours.
I'm not confused...Just in error about the CE number.....And as you've pointed out the so called palm print has two different CE numbers....It is labeled CE 637 and CE 639.....
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I'm not confused...Just in error about the CE number.....And as you've pointed out the so called palm print has two different CE numbers....It is labeled CE 637 and CE 639.....
You're confused about that too. CE 637 is the lift. CE 639 is a photograph (slightly enlarged) of CE 637.
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You're confused about that too. CE 637 is the lift. CE 639 is a photograph (slightly enlarged) of CE 637.
You've just admitted that CE 637 and Ce 639 are basically the same piece of evidence ....Which is a 3' X 5" white card that has a piece of cellophane tape stuck on it and that piece of tape is purportedly a lift of a print. This is exactly what Tom Alyea said he saw detective day create in the TSBD at about 1:45 that afternoon.
The liars would like us to believe that CE 637 ( CE 639) is Lee Oswald's palm print that Day claimed he found on the 5/8 inch diameter barrel. If the barrel is .625 inches in diameter (and it is) then the surface area that would be presented to exposure to a man's palm would be less than 5/8 inch...... or about 3/8 of an inch. but he photo shows an area of nearly an inch.
Houston we have a problem....The card can be used as a scale to find that the bayonet slot on the right hand side of the lift measures .197 inches across....or 5mm..... And the width of the bayonet slot on the foregrip of a model 91/38 carcano just happens to be ....5mm Proving that the lift was taken from the WOODEN foregrip in the area immediately to the rear of the bayonet slot.
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You've just admitted that CE 637 and Ce 639 are basically the same piece of evidence ....Which is a 3' X 5" white card that has a piece of cellophane tape stuck on it and that piece of tape is purportedly a lift of a print.
No they're not. One is a photograph of the other. You should at least know the evidence before you pontificate on it.
This is exactly what Tom Alyea said he saw detective day create in the TSBD at about 1:45 that afternoon.
Alyea said "he lifted them off with scotch tape and placed them on little white cards". Where are the cards, Walt?
(this is actually hearsay from Connie Kritzberg, who not only was not there but who Alyea himself said had inaccuracies in her story)
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No they're not. One is a photograph of the other. You should at least know the evidence before you pontificate on it.
Alyea said "he lifted them off with scotch tape and placed them on little white cards". Where are the cards, Walt?
(this is actually hearsay from Connie Kritzberg, who not only was not there but who Alyea himself said had inaccuracies in her story)
Where are the cards, Walt?
That's a question a dishonest jerk would ask.....because he knows full well I have no idea where those pieces of evidence are.... If they showed that the prints were not of lee Oswald ( and you can bet they were not Lee's prints) then any person with a functioning brain would know that those little while cards probably ignited because they were too hot.
this is actually hearsay from Connie Kritzberg, who not only was not there but who Alyea himself said had inaccuracies in her story)
WRONG!!.....Tom Alyea wrote that he saw Day lift prints from the rifle.....(http://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/raspberry_1325.JPG)
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I am saying that he did what he was told. The police obviously trusted him to keep his mouth shut.
There is no evidence supporting Day's claim.
Tom Alyea probably valued his job and the wages he earned. So you're probably right....he did what he was told.
He obviously was friendly with the DPD.....and no doubt he received stories for his newspaper from the Dallas police, so he wouldn't have bitten the hand that was feeding him.
But none of this changes the fact that he said that he witnessed and filmed detective Day lifting finger prints from the carcano while he was in the TSBD at about 1:45 that afternoon.
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WRONG!!.....Tom Alyea wrote that he saw Day lift prints from the rifle.....
Really, Walt? Tell me where Tom Alyea wrote this.
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And where is the footage of Day lifting fingerprints?
Hey cap.....These prints I lifted from the rifle don't match the prints we took from our commie patsy! What do you want to do with them?
Call Rob Caprio and ask him........
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Hey cap.....These prints I lifted from the rifle don't match the prints we took from our commie patsy! What do you want to do with them?
Call Rob Caprio and ask him........
Another cool story, bro. Any actual evidence that this happened?
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Another cool story, bro. Any actual evidence that this happened?
The only evidence that I'm aware of is CE 637..... And it very obviously DOES support Tom Alyea's account of watching detective Day Lift prints from the rifle....
And I'm not your Bro.... I asked Mom... And she said that she thinks abortion is wrong.....But If you were her son...
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The only evidence that I'm aware of is CE 637..... And it very obviously DOES support Tom Alyea's account of watching detective Day Lift prints from the rifle....
I'm talking about your fabricated conversation with the captain:
"Hey cap.....These prints I lifted from the rifle don't match the prints we took from our commie patsy! What do you want to do with them?"
Any evidence that ever took place anywhere other than in your fevered imagination?
And I'm not your Bro.... I asked Mom... And she said that she thinks abortion is wrong.....But If you were her son...
Then stop spreading fake news, bro!
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As I figured, you have NO supporting evidence for Day's claim. What else is new?
Of course you can't see the evidence.... There are many people that can't see that the lift on the scotch tape in CE 637 was IN FACT lifted from the wooden foregrip of a mannlicher carcano model 91/38 short rifle. But simply because someone is ignorant, and doesn't want to learn from the evidence that is right before their eyes, does not eliminate that evidence. There is ZERO doubt that the so called "palm print" ( smudge) seen in CE 637 was lifted from the wooden foregrip. And Tom Alyea watched detective Day as he performed the lifts in the TSBD that afternoon.
As long as folks keep the blinders on and refuse to believe their own eyes, they will remain ignorant......
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As I figured, you have NO supporting evidence for Day's claim. What else is new?
What "Day's claim" are you referring to?
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Fifty-four years after JFK's assassination, newly released classified documents state that the FBI reportedly lost Oswald's fingerprints that authorities lifted from the rifle found in the Texas School Book Depository after the President was assassinated in Dallas. According to documents, Dallas Police claimed they submitted the original fingerprints to the FBI, and those prints were never returned to the police. Now FBI files dated from July 1978 indicate the fingerprints are missing from the agency's vast archives. How convenient.
At the time of the investigation in 1963, agents and outside experts concluded that a palm print taken from the barrel of the rifle belonged to Lee Harvey Oswald. In "Faulty Evidence," author Michael T. Griffith reported that Dallas police claimed Oswald's prints had NOT been found on the weapon. When the FBI's Latona examined the Carcano on Nov. 23, he did not find Oswald's prints on the weapon. Moreover, Latona said the rifle's barrel did NOT look as though it had ever been processed for prints.
No fingerprints were found on any of the three empty bullet shells found in the TSBD, or on the intact bullet. Nor were any prints found on the rifle clip that held the intact bullet and into which the shells must have been loaded by hand [ Warren Commission Hearings, Vol.4 pp.253, 258-60 ]
www.newnationalist.net/2017/12/23/new-jfk-file-release-oswald-fingerprint-lifts-on-rifle-were-lost
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Fifty-four years after JFK's assassination, newly released classified documents state that the FBI reportedly lost Oswald's fingerprints that authorities lifted from the rifle found in the Texas School Book Depository after the President was assassinated in Dallas. According to documents, Dallas Police claimed they submitted the original fingerprints to the FBI, and those prints were never returned to the police. Now FBI files dated from July 1978 indicate the fingerprints are missing from the agency's vast archives. How convenient.
At the time of the investigation in 1963, agents and outside experts concluded that a palm print taken from the barrel of the rifle belonged to Lee Harvey Oswald. In "Faulty Evidence," author Michael T. Griffith reported that Dallas police claimed Oswald's prints had NOT been found on the weapon. When the FBI's Latona examined the Carcano on Nov. 23, he did not find Oswald's prints on the weapon. Moreover, Latona said the rifle's barrel did NOT look as though it had ever been processed for prints.
No fingerprints were found on any of the three empty bullet shells found in the TSBD, or on the intact bullet. Nor were any prints found on the rifle clip that held the intact bullet and into which the shells must have been loaded by hand [ Warren Commission Hearings, Vol.4 pp.253, 258-60 ]
www.newnationalist.net/2017/12/23/new-jfk-file-release-oswald-fingerprint-lifts-on-rifle-were-lost
Thanks for posting the link, Mike..... But notice the deception ( or outright lying) used as the headline....
Newly Released JFK Files Indicate Evidence of Oswald?s Fingerprints on Rifle was ?Lost?
You can bet the farm that if the lifts were actually the prints of Lee Oswald they wouldn't have been "lost"....
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What happened to Alyea's film?
Alyea's film.....Would someone please post a link to it?
Here's the problem.... Tom Alyea says that he watched as detective Day lifted prints ( that's PRINTS meaning more than one print)
We do have one print that was lifted from the wooden foregrip of a model 91/38 carcano rifle. LBJ's cover up committee gave us that photo of the lifted print an it is identified as CE 634. The also gave us a BS story about how CE 634 came to be.
Now to the crux of the matter.... Tom Alyea said that he saw AND FILMED detective Day lift PRINTS from the rifle....
Detective Day is on record as stating that he saw PRINTS on the rifle when he dusted the rifle for prints in the TSND at about 1:45 that afternoon. Day said that he placed cellophane tape over the prints on the trigger guard to protect the prints until he could get to the police lab and examine the prints under better conditions. However there are dozens of photos of detective Day carrying the carcano as he departs the TSBD with the carcano....and there is NO cellophane tape on the trigger guard of the rifle.
We do have FBI photos that were taken of the trigger guard (magazine) which show a small bit of someone's finger prints. And those photos appear to show the remnants of prints that were left behind on the magazine after someone lifted the major portion of the finger prints.
SO the question I have is:.....Was Tom Alyea correct when he said that he watched detective Day lift prints ( plural) from the carcano? Did Day find prints that obviously were not Lee Harrrrvey Ossssswald's, who was the patsy and arch villain ??
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Someone has been getting false information. Detective Day was the Dallas DPs fingerprint expert. The shells didn't have Oswald fingerprints on them but the M Carcano had Oswald palm print on the stock. This coincides with testimony given to the commission by Arnold Rowland who said that he saw a man holding a rifle with a scope on it about 15 minutes before the assassination took place in the sixth floor window
Not only did Oswald plant the M Carcano on the sixth floor he also ate his lunch on the sixth floor snipers nest. There was a brown paper lunch sack found in the snipers nest on the sixth floor. The FBI fingerprint expert Sebastian Latona' said that Oswald fingerprints were on the lunch sack. Later on during testimony. Bonnie Ray Williams claimed that the lunch sack belonged to him. He was lying. Jack Ruby paid Williams to lie to the Warren Commission. You can read Detective Day's testimony below. Day also took the photos of the snipers nest and w9as complaining that somebody moved some boxes and was tampering with the crime scene.
http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/russ/testimony/day1.htm
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Detective Day is on record as stating that he saw PRINTS on the rifle when he dusted the rifle for prints in the TSND at about 1:45 that afternoon. Day said that he placed cellophane tape over the prints on the trigger guard to protect the prints until he could get to the police lab and examine the prints under better conditions.
This is false. Day didn't say he put cellophane tape on anything at the TSBD.
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The FBI fingerprint expert Sebastian Latona' said that Oswald fingerprints were on the lunch sack.
Cite, please.
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This is false. Day didn't say he put cellophane tape on anything at the TSBD.
Did Detective Day tell the Cover up committee that he had placed cellophane tape over the prints to protect them AFTER he discovered them??
Have you seen Detective Day dusting the carcano behind the brightly sunlit window in the TSBD as he looks for prints on that carcano? Do you believe that he did not see the prints on the Magazine / trigger guard?
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Did Detective Day tell the Cover up committee that he had placed cellophane tape over the prints to protect them AFTER he discovered them??
Yes, back at the station. You claimed that "Day said that he placed cellophane tape over the prints on the trigger guard to protect the prints until he could get to the police lab and examine the prints under better conditions". Cite Day ever saying that.
Have you seen Detective Day dusting the carcano behind the brightly sunlit window in the TSBD as he looks for prints on that carcano?
Yes, but I haven't seen Detective Day putting tape on anything or lifting prints.
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This is false. Day didn't say he put cellophane tape on anything at the TSBD.
When Did Day discover the prints?? Did He say that he covered them with cellophane tape after he discovered them? Did Tom Alyea say that he saw Day using cellophane tape in the TSBD at about 1:45 that afternoon?
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Someone has been getting false information.
The FBI fingerprint expert Sebastian Latona' said that Oswald fingerprints were on the lunch sack.
Latona mentions nothing about a lunch sack in his testimony.
Jack Ruby paid Williams to lie to the Warren Commission.
Maybe he gave him a gun?