JFK Assassination Forum
Off Topic => News - Off Topic - Weird & Wacky => Topic started by: Jon Banks on February 09, 2023, 12:43:12 AM
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How America Took Out The Nord Stream Pipeline
Last June, the Navy divers, operating under the cover of a widely publicized mid-summer NATO exercise known as BALTOPS 22, planted the remotely triggered explosives that, three months later, destroyed three of the four Nord Stream pipelines, according to a source with direct knowledge of the operational planning.
Two of the pipelines, which were known collectively as Nord Stream 1, had been providing Germany and much of Western Europe with cheap Russian natural gas for more than a decade. A second pair of pipelines, called Nord Stream 2, had been built but were not yet operational. Now, with Russian troops massing on the Ukrainian border and the bloodiest war in Europe since 1945 looming, President Joseph Biden saw the pipelines as a vehicle for Vladimir Putin to weaponize natural gas for his political and territorial ambitions.
Asked for comment, Adrienne Watson, a White House spokesperson, said in an email, “This is false and complete fiction.” Tammy Thorp, a spokesperson for the Central Intelligence Agency, similarly wrote: “This claim is completely and utterly false.”
Biden’s decision to sabotage the pipelines came after more than nine months of highly secret back and forth debate inside Washington’s national security community about how to best achieve that goal. For much of that time, the issue was not whether to do the mission, but how to get it done with no overt clue as to who was responsible.
There was a vital bureaucratic reason for relying on the graduates of the center’s hardcore diving school in Panama City. The divers were Navy only, and not members of America’s Special Operations Command, whose covert operations must be reported to Congress and briefed in advance to the Senate and House leadership—the so-called Gang of Eight. The Biden Administration was doing everything possible to avoid leaks as the planning took place late in 2021 and into the first months of 2022.
President Biden and his foreign policy team—National Security Adviser Jake Sullivan, Secretary of State Tony Blinken, and Victoria Nuland, the Undersecretary of State for Policy—had been vocal and consistent in their hostility to the two pipelines, which ran side by side for 750 miles under the Baltic Sea from two different ports in northeastern Russia near the Estonian border, passing close to the Danish island of Bornholm before ending in northern Germany.
The direct route, which bypassed any need to transit Ukraine, had been a boon for the German economy, which enjoyed an abundance of cheap Russian natural gas—enough to run its factories and heat its homes while enabling German distributors to sell excess gas, at a profit, throughout Western Europe. Action that could be traced to the administration would violate US promises to minimize direct conflict with Russia. Secrecy was essential.
From its earliest days, Nord Stream 1 was seen by Washington and its anti-Russian NATO partners as a threat to western dominance. The holding company behind it, Nord Stream AG, was incorporated in Switzerland in 2005 in partnership with Gazprom, a publicly traded Russian company producing enormous profits for shareholders which is dominated by oligarchs known to be in the thrall of Putin. Gazprom controlled 51 percent of the company, with four European energy firms—one in France, one in the Netherlands and two in Germany—sharing the remaining 49 percent of stock, and having the right to control downstream sales of the inexpensive natural gas to local distributors in Germany and Western Europe. Gazprom’s profits were shared with the Russian government, and state gas and oil revenues were estimated in some years to amount to as much as 45 percent of Russia’s annual budget.
America’s political fears were real: Putin would now have an additional and much-needed major source of income, and Germany and the rest of Western Europe would become addicted to low-cost natural gas supplied by Russia—while diminishing European reliance on America. In fact, that’s exactly what happened. Many Germans saw Nord Stream 1 as part of the deliverance of former Chancellor Willy Brandt’s famed Ostpolitik theory, which would enable postwar Germany to rehabilitate itself and other European nations destroyed in World War II by, among other initiatives, utilizing cheap Russian gas to fuel a prosperous Western European market and trading economy.
Nord Stream 1 was dangerous enough, in the view of NATO and Washington, but Nord Stream 2, whose construction was completed in September of 2021, would, if approved by German regulators, double the amount of cheap gas that would be available to Germany and Western Europe. The second pipeline also would provide enough gas for more than 50 percent of Germany’s annual consumption. Tensions were constantly escalating between Russia and NATO, backed by the aggressive foreign policy of the Biden Administration.
Opposition to Nord Stream 2 flared on the eve of the Biden inauguration in January 2021, when Senate Republicans, led by Ted Cruz of Texas, repeatedly raised the political threat of cheap Russian natural gas during the confirmation hearing of Blinken as Secretary of State. By then a unified Senate had successfully passed a law that, as Cruz told Blinken, “halted [the pipeline] in its tracks.” There would be enormous political and economic pressure from the German government, then headed by Angela Merkel, to get the second pipeline online.
Would Biden stand up to the Germans? Blinken said yes, but added that he had not discussed the specifics of the incoming President’s views. “I know his strong conviction that this is a bad idea, the Nord Stream 2,” he said. “I know that he would have us use every persuasive tool that we have to convince our friends and partners, including Germany, not to move forward with it...”
https://seymourhersh.substack.com/p/how-america-took-out-the-nord-stream
Fascinating read but I don't know how much of it is true. Hersh claims that most of the information comes from a single source.
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The story that the Russians blew up their own pipeline never made any sense. Our hapless media just repeated it like a propaganda machine. Any person with a functioning brain could realize that the Russians had no incentive to blow up their own pipeline. In addition, if they had done so, the US and our allies would have had rock solid proof of the event. There is no way the Russians could do that without US intelligence knowing it. But what did Biden and his administration tell us? It was most likely the Russians. And the US played no part in it. HA HA HA. They are adept at half-truths. So maybe the US only arranged it and someone from a NATO country pushed the button. Either way it is still a falsehood perpetuated by Biden. It begs the question of what else they have lied about to perpetuate this war. And where is the mainstream media seeking answers? Nowhere. They don't want answers. Nothing to see there. It's all a conspiracy theory of MAGA supporters (which often becomes the accepted truth long after it no longer matters).
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The story that the Russians blew up their own pipeline never made any sense. Our hapless media just repeated it like a propaganda machine. Any person with a functioning brain could realize that the Russians had no incentive to blow up their own pipeline. In addition, if they had done so, the US and our allies would have had rock solid proof of the event. There is no way the Russians could do that without US intelligence knowing it. But what did Biden and his administration tell us? It was most likely the Russians. And the US played no part in it. HA HA HA. They are adept at half-truths. So maybe the US only arranged it and someone from a NATO country pushed the button. Either way it is still a falsehood perpetuated by Biden. It begs the question of what else they have lied about to perpetuate this war. And where is the mainstream media seeking answers? Nowhere. They don't want answers. Nothing to see there. It's all a conspiracy theory of MAGA supporters (which often becomes the accepted truth long after it no longer matters).
Russians blowing up their own pipeline makes perfect sense. Cutting off Germany form this supply might make them give in and stop supporting Ukraine.
Biden blowing up this pipeline makes no sense. How shall I describe his handling of Ukraine? With two words."Exterme Caution". He takes months to send HIMARS to Ukraine. He takes many more months before he decides it's okay to send tanks. Very careful and caution management.
But who matches the description of someone who throws caution to the wind? Who could do something like this? No one comes to mind. Oh, wait a second. Putin does.
While Biden is very cautious, Putin takes wild chances. He shows minimum restraint. Throws his entire army into the mix. Even throws in the trainers who are needed to train new forces. Risks world disfavor with all out attacks against civilians, shooting them on sight, attacking cities, attacking the power grid during winter. Trying to give the appearance of someone who could launch a nuclear attack at any moment if the West doesn't let him overrun Ukraine.
Many similar operations attempted in the past have failed. The Iran Iranian helicopter rescue mission of 1980. Even the attack on Bin Laden in 2011 has a serious breakdown of the plan when one of the helicopter crash lands on the compound. There is no guarantee for anyone attempting this mission that they will get away with it without being caught.
What would the risks be to Biden? Everything. A Europe that had united behind us against Russia could turn against us. He could seize defeat from the jaws of victory.
What would the risks be to Putin? Nothing. If it gets caught, it works to his advantage. He wants the world to think he is ruthless and crazy. That he is capable of anything. Getting caught doesn't hurt him at all. For Putin, attempting this operation is a Win-Win situation. Not so for Biden.
So, to me, a rational observer should conclude that Putin was the most likely suspect behind this bombing. And only an irrational person, or a rational person who wants authoritarianism to triumph, both at home and abroad, who says that Biden is the likely culprit. If authoritarianism can't succeed in Eastern Europe, what hope is there of it succeeding in America? Hence, the same ones who support the assault on Congress on January 6, who support the lies of Trump that the election was stolen from him, and who continue to support Trump, are, of course, the same ones who stand against Ukraine, which is the same as lending aid and comfort to the enemy of America, Putin and Russia.
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Russians blowing up their own pipeline makes perfect sense. Cutting off Germany form this supply might make them give in and stop supporting Ukraine.
Biden blowing up this pipeline makes no sense. How shall I describe his handling of Ukraine? With two words."Exterme Caution". He takes months to send HIMARS to Ukraine. He takes many more months before he decides it's okay to send tanks. Very careful and caution management.
But who matches the description of someone who throws caution to the wind? Who could do something like this? No one comes to mind. Oh, wait a second. Putin does.
While Biden is very cautious, Putin takes wild chances. He shows minimum restraint. Throws his entire army into the mix. Even throws in the trainers who are needed to train new forces. Risks world disfavor with all out attacks against civilians, shooting them on sight, attacking cities, attacking the power grid during winter. Trying to give the appearance of someone who could launch a nuclear attack at any moment if the West doesn't let him overrun Ukraine.
Many similar operations attempted in the past have failed. The Iran Iranian helicopter rescue mission of 1980. Even the attack on Bin Laden in 2011 has a serious breakdown of the plan when one of the helicopter crash lands on the compound. There is no guarantee for anyone attempting this mission that they will get away with it without being caught.
What would the risks be to Biden? Everything. A Europe that had united behind us against Russia could turn against us. He could seize defeat from the jaws of victory.
What would the risks be to Putin? Nothing. If it gets caught, it works to his advantage. He wants the world to think he is ruthless and crazy. That he is capable of anything. Getting caught doesn't hurt him at all. For Putin, attempting this operation is a Win-Win situation. Not so for Biden.
So, to me, a rational observer should conclude that Putin was the most likely suspect behind this bombing. And only an irrational person, or a rational person who wants authoritarianism to triumph, both at home and abroad, who says that Biden is the likely culprit. If authoritarianism can't succeed in Eastern Europe, what hope is there of it succeeding in America? Hence, the same ones who support the assault on Congress on January 6, who support the lies of Trump that the election was stolen from him, and who continue to support Trump, are, of course, the same ones who stand against Ukraine, which is the same as lending aid and comfort to the enemy of America, Putin and Russia.
The Russians didn't need to blow up their own pipeline to cut off the supply of oil to Germany. Good grief. That makes absolutely no sense. They would just cut it off. If there were any doubt, Biden himself confirmed that if Russia invaded Ukraine that the US would "end" the pipeline. And do you think the US intelligence agencies would still have no evidence that the Russians did this? That would be quite an operation to pull off at sea.
https://www.youtube.com/shorts/FVbEoZXhCrM
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The Russians didn't need to blow up their own pipeline to cut off the supply of oil to Germany. Good grief. That makes absolutely no sense. They would just cut it off. If there were any doubt, Biden himself confirmed that if Russia invaded Ukraine that the US would "end" the pipeline. And do you think the US intelligence agencies would still have no evidence that the Russians did this? That would be quite an operation to pull off at sea.
https://www.youtube.com/shorts/FVbEoZXhCrM
If you're right, Biden isn't as weak as you claim he is, right?
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Russians blowing up their own pipeline makes perfect sense. Cutting off Germany form this supply might make them give in and stop supporting Ukraine.
The Russians partly owned the pipeline and could turn off the gas any time they wanted. Blowing it up makes no sense for Russia after they spent billions to build both pipelines and even attempted to repair them.
Feb. 2023 - German top official says no evidence of Russian sabotage of Nord Stream pipeline
https://kyivindependent.com/news-feed/german-top-official-says-no-evidence-of-russian-sabotage-of-nord-stream-pipeline
German investigators currently have no evidence that Russia is behind the explosions on the Nord Stream 1 and 2 gas pipelines, German Attorney General Peter Frank told Die Welt.
Biden blowing up this pipeline makes no sense.
Of course it makes sense if the US can get away with it. What are the Germans going to do? Kick US troops out of Germany? Doubtful.
The whole thing smells like an inside job.
Is the Biden administration behaving like they're the least bit concerned about finding out who committed this major act of terror against German infrastructure? No.
Cutting Germany off from Russian energy has been a long-term US foriegn policy objective. See the article below from 2008:
2008 - German-US Tensions Grow Over Baltic Pipeline
Utah Republican Senator Bob Bennett echoed Rice’s sentiments. “Russia is becoming an oil or a gas state,” said the economics expert. Bennett maintains that Germany is so dependent on Russian gas that this gives Moscow more political elbow room, for example, in Georgia. He says that Europeans have to do something about this “with pipelines that come from other countries to Europe.”
When it comes to Russia, politicians in Washington generally view Germany with suspicion. They accuse the Germans of being so dependent on Russian gas that they don’t dare speak their mind to the Russian strongman, Prime Minister Vladimir Putin. But the Baltic States, Poland and the Scandinavians are also uneasy about the pipeline. They are afraid that Moscow and Berlin have made a special deal. However, such objections have their limits. Countries like France, the United Kingdom and the Netherlands would also be supplied by the pipeline.
https://www.spiegel.de/international/world/russia-s-energy-weapon-german-us-tensions-grow-over-baltic-pipeline-a-579677.html
So the US has long desired to cut the Germans off from Russian gas and Biden officials have expressed joy that the pipelines are destroyed. It couldn't be clearer who is most likely responsible...
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If you're right, Biden isn't as weak as you claim he is, right?
No, he is just more stupid than I realized risking WWIII over Ukraine. And a liar.
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The Russians partly owned the pipeline and could turn off the gas any time they wanted. Blowing it up makes no sense for Russia after they spent billions to build both pipelines and even attempted to repair them.
That is absolutely correct. Some folks, however, just accept whatever they are told without exercising any independent analysis or common sense. It's like suppressing the Wuhan lab story as a conspiracy theory. What are the odds that COVID would start in the very city where a lab was located doing "research" on the virus and not be related? But nothing to see there because Fauci said there was no evidence. So what happens now? The truth will eventually come out maybe years from now and it will be something along the lines of US providing the intelligence and means for the pipeline to be destroyed. Most likely by some NATO country that agreed to conduct the operation so long as the US never reveals who pushed the button. When the truth comes out, Biden and company will claim they never lied. The US didn't do it. The half truth they have applied to every lie.
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No, he is just more stupid than I realized risking WWIII over Ukraine. And a liar.
He's doing exactly the opposite, but as a die hard Putin lover you'll never understand that.
You have replaced reason with blind hate and it's pathetic. There is no bigger threat to America than people like you.
That is absolutely correct. Some folks, however, just accept whatever they are told without exercising any independent analysis or common sense. It's like suppressing the Wuhan lab story as a conspiracy theory. What are the odds that COVID would start in the very city where a lab was located doing "research" on the virus and not be related? But nothing to see there because Fauci said there was no evidence. So what happens now? The truth will eventually come out maybe years from now and it will be something along the lines of US providing the intelligence and means for the pipeline to be destroyed. Most likely by some NATO country that agreed to conduct the operation so long as the US never reveals who pushed the button. When the truth comes out, Biden and company will claim they never lied. The US didn't do it. The half truth they have applied to every lie.
exercising any independent analysis or common sense
What this really means is jumping to conclusions for which there is no evidence, as you always do!
But nothing to see there because Fauci said there was no evidence.
And he was right as there wasn't and still isn't any evidence. So one can only wonder on what you based that "independent analysis"..... Let me guess, Fox "news" (who have admitted fully to purposely lying about the election of 2020 being stolen) or even worse, nutjobs like Ben Shapiro....
The truth will eventually come out maybe years from now and it will be something along the lines of US providing the intelligence and means for the pipeline to be destroyed. Most likely by some NATO country that agreed to conduct the operation so long as the US never reveals who pushed the button. When the truth comes out, Biden and company will claim they never lied. The US didn't do it. The half truth they have applied to every lie.
Welcome to the world of International Politics.....
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He's doing exactly the opposite, but as a die hard Putin lover you'll never understand that.
You have replaced reason with blind hate and it's pathetic. There is no bigger to America that people like you.
exercising any independent analysis or common sense
What this really means is jumping to conclusions for which there is no evidence, as you always do!
But nothing to see there because Fauci said there was no evidence.
And he was right as there wasn't and still isn't any evidence. So one can only wonder on what you based that "independent analysis"..... Let me guess, Fox "news" (who have not admitted fully to purposely lying about the election of 2020 being stolen) or even worse, nutjobs like Ben Shapiro....
The truth will eventually come out maybe years from now and it will be something along the lines of US providing the intelligence and means for the pipeline to be destroyed. Most likely by some NATO country that agreed to conduct the operation so long as the US never reveals who pushed the button. When the truth comes out, Biden and company will claim they never lied. The US didn't do it. The half truth they have applied to every lie.
Welcome to the world of International Politics.....
You believe the Russians blew up their own pipeline? LOL. And you have evidence of this even though the US apparently does not? You believe this even though Ukraine Joe told the press that he would "end" the pipeline if Russia invaded Ukraine. Russian then invaded Ukraine and the pipeline was destroyed. What a coincidence. Will you be here telling us that Old Joe never really denied destroying the pipeline after the truth comes out years from now?
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You believe the Russians blew up their own pipeline? LOL. And you have evidence of this even though the US apparently does not? You believe this even though Ukraine Joe told the press that he would "end" the pipeline if Russia invaded Ukraine. Russian then invaded Ukraine and the pipeline was destroyed. What a coincidence. Will you be here telling us that Old Joe never really denied destroying the pipeline after the truth comes out years from now?
You believe the Russians blew up their own pipeline? LOL.
No... I believe that at this moment nobody knows who was behind it.
And you have evidence of this even though the US apparently does not?
Evidence of what?
You believe this even though Ukraine Joe told the press that he would "end" the pipeline if Russia invaded Ukraine.
You really need to stop telling me what I believe, because you're not very good at it.
Will you be here telling us that Old Joe never really denied destroying the pipeline after the truth comes out years from now?
If the truth comes out years from now, how in the world can you know right now what the truth is? The answer is that you can't..... you're just making speeches and blowing smoke and hot air.
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You believe the Russians blew up their own pipeline? LOL.
No... I believe that at this moment nobody knows who was behind it.
And you have evidence of this even though the US apparently does not?
Evidence of what?
You believe this even though Ukraine Joe told the press that he would "end" the pipeline if Russia invaded Ukraine.
You really need to stop telling me what I believe, because you're not very good at it.
Will you be here telling us that Old Joe never really denied destroying the pipeline after the truth comes out years from now?
If the truth comes out years from now, how in the world can you know right now what the truth is? The answer is that you can't..... you're just making speeches and blowing smoke and hot air.
You live in a blissful state of contrarian ignorance in which nothing can be known or provable. What do we know? The explanation for the Russians blowing up their own pipeline makes no sense. Why? If they wanted to stop sending gas to Europe, they could just shut it down. They don't need to blow it up. What else do we know? Biden told the press that he would "end" this pipeline if Russia invaded Ukraine. Russia invaded Ukraine. And the pipeline was destroyed. What logical inference can be drawn from that? A coincidence? What else do we know? This would have been a sophisticated underseas operation conducted under the noses of US and NATO intelligence to blow up the pipeline. What would be worse? That the US has lacks intelligence to confirm who did this or that they do and are lying about it? If they truly don't know who did this, that would be gross incompetence even by the low standards of Biden's administration.
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You live in a blissful state of contrarian ignorance in which nothing can be known or provable. What do we know? The explanation for the Russians blowing up their own pipeline makes no sense. Why? If they wanted to stop sending gas to Europe, they could just shut it down. They don't need to blow it up. What else do we know? Biden told the press that he would "end" this pipeline if Russia invaded Ukraine. Russia invaded Ukraine. And the pipeline was destroyed. What logical inference can be drawn from that? A coincidence? What else do we know? This would have been a sophisticated underseas operation conducted under the noses of US and NATO intelligence to blow up the pipeline. What would be worse? That the US has lacks intelligence to confirm who did this or that they do and are lying about it? If they truly don't know who did this, that would be gross incompetence even by the low standards of Biden's administration.
I'm glad there is at least one person in the world who actually thinks he knows everything about everything and is convinced he's never wrong. :D
With your amazing "talent" why don't you run for President and show us all what the truth really is, instead of speculating and constantly complaining about everybody and everything, Grumpy?
Btw, real life is very often stranger than fiction and in real life things are very often not as they seem at first sight. You do understand that, don't you?
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The Russians didn't need to blow up their own pipeline to cut off the supply of oil to Germany. Good grief. That makes absolutely no sense. They would just cut it off. If there were any doubt, Biden himself confirmed that if Russia invaded Ukraine that the US would "end" the pipeline. And do you think the US intelligence agencies would still have no evidence that the Russians did this? That would be quite an operation to pull off at sea.
https://www.youtube.com/shorts/FVbEoZXhCrM
But the Russians do need to blow up the pipeline, instead of just shutting off the gas, if their intentions were to:
a. Cut the Germans off of this supply of gas
and to:
b. Tell the Germans, and the rest of the world, "Watch out. Don't push us too far. We are capable of anything."
Why not blow up the pipeline and announce what Russia did?
Why have many mysterious deaths, like people considered not loyal to Putin falling out of high windows? Clearly intended to intimidate others. But not announce what Russia did?
Because sometimes its best if people know what Russia did, without an explicit confession.
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But the Russians do need to blow up the pipeline, instead of just shutting off the gas, if their intentions were to:
a. Cut the Germans off of this supply of gas
and to:
b. Tell the Germans, and the rest of the world, "Watch out. Don't push us too far. We are capable of anything."
Why not blow up the pipeline and announce what Russia did?
Why have many mysterious deaths, like people considered not loyal to Putin falling out of high windows? Clearly intended to intimidate others. But not announce what Russia did?
Because sometimes its best if people know what Russia did, without an explicit confession.
Most people have concluded at this point that it wasn't Russia. Including the investigators in Europe.
Maybe it wasn't the Biden administration either. There are no named suspects at this point.
But Russia and Germany are the victims here. They lost two pipelines that they spent years and billions of dollars to construct. So Russia and Germany are likely at the bottom of the list of possible suspects.
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Most people have concluded at this point that it wasn't Russia. Including the investigators in Europe.
Maybe it wasn't the Biden administration either. There are no named suspects at this point.
But Russia and Germany are the victims here. They lost two pipelines that they spent years and billions of dollars to construct. So Russia and Germany are likely at the bottom of the list of possible suspects.
Most people have concluded at this point that it wasn't Russia. Including the investigators in Europe.
The investigators in Europe have concluded nothing of the kind (yet). The investigation is still ongoing. In fact, in European media this isn't even a big story.
But Russia and Germany are the victims here. They lost two pipelines that they spent years and billions of dollars to construct. So Russia and Germany are likely at the bottom of the list of possible suspects.
That's a somewhat gullible conclusion. Germany spent years and massive amounts of money to rebuild the country after WWI only to destroy it all again in WWII. What's a bit of infrastructure anyway? It can all be rebuild, right?
Besides, Germany isn't a victim, because regardless of the pipelines (only one was in operation btw) being undamaged or not, Europe has agreed not to accept gas from Russia anyway as part of their embargo. All the EU countries are currently buying gas from other sources and the Russian economy suffers as a consequence. Russia isn't a victim either as they caused the crisis in the first place by invading Ukraine and thus should suffer the consequences.
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Most people have concluded at this point that it wasn't Russia. Including the investigators in Europe.
The investigators in Europe have concluded nothing of the kind (yet). The investigation is still ongoing. In fact, in European media this isn't even a big story.
In case you missed this:
Feb. 2023 - German top official says no evidence of Russian sabotage of Nord Stream pipeline
German top official says no evidence of Russian sabotage of Nord Stream pipeline. German investigators currently have no evidence that Russia is behind the explosions on the Nord Stream 1 and 2 gas pipelines, German Attorney General Peter Frank told Die Welt.'
https://kyivindependent.com/news-feed/german-top-official-says-no-evidence-of-russian-sabotage-of-nord-stream-pipeline
Washington Post last year:
…after months of investigation, numerous officials privately say that Russia may not be to blame after all for the attack on the Nord Stream pipelines.
“There is no evidence at this point that Russia was behind the sabotage,” said one European official, echoing the assessment of 23 diplomatic and intelligence officials in nine countries interviewed in recent weeks.
Some went so far as to say they didn’t think Russia was responsible. Others who still consider Russia a prime suspect said positively attributing the attack — to any country — may be impossible...
https://www.washingtonpost.com/national-security/2022/12/21/russia-nord-stream-explosions/
Sy Hersh makes a convincing case for why the US did it but he only provided circumstantial evidence.
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In case you missed this:
Feb. 2023 - German top official says no evidence of Russian sabotage of Nord Stream pipeline
German top official says no evidence of Russian sabotage of Nord Stream pipeline. German investigators currently have no evidence that Russia is behind the explosions on the Nord Stream 1 and 2 gas pipelines, German Attorney General Peter Frank told Die Welt.'
https://kyivindependent.com/news-feed/german-top-official-says-no-evidence-of-russian-sabotage-of-nord-stream-pipeline
Washington Post last year:
…after months of investigation, numerous officials privately say that Russia may not be to blame after all for the attack on the Nord Stream pipelines.
“There is no evidence at this point that Russia was behind the sabotage,” said one European official, echoing the assessment of 23 diplomatic and intelligence officials in nine countries interviewed in recent weeks.
Some went so far as to say they didn’t think Russia was responsible. Others who still consider Russia a prime suspect said positively attributing the attack — to any country — may be impossible...
https://www.washingtonpost.com/national-security/2022/12/21/russia-nord-stream-explosions/
Sy Hersh makes a convincing case for why the US did it but he only provided circumstantial evidence.
I'm not really impressed by the opinion of a "German top official". Having no evidence, to date, that Russia is behind the explosions does not justify the conclusion that Russia isn't behind it.
The same applies to what officials say privately. It's all nothing more than opinions. The bottom line is that there is no official report, to date, and there may never be.
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I'm not really impressed by the opinion of a "German top official". Having no evidence, to date, that Russia is behind the explosions does not justify the conclusion that Russia isn't behind it.
The same applies to what officials say privately. It's all nothing more than opinions. The bottom line is that there is no official report, to date, and there may never be.
To date, there’s no evidence that Russia did it nor does Russia have a ‘realistic’ motive for sabotaging their own pipelines that cost billions to construct.
Investigators have expressed both publicly and in private that there’s no evidence that Russia was involved.
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Latest report is that evidence "suggests" it may have been a pro-Ukrainian group/groups: https://www.nytimes.com/2023/03/07/us/politics/nord-stream-pipeline-sabotage-ukraine.html
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Latest report is that evidence "suggests" it may have been a pro-Ukrainian group/groups: https://www.nytimes.com/2023/03/07/us/politics/nord-stream-pipeline-sabotage-ukraine.html
Kind of funny to see anonymous intelligence officials throwing Ukraine under the bus again. It’s not the first time they’ve distanced themselves from illegal or terroristic acts committed by Ukraine.
But given the lack of details in the article and anonymous sources, it smells like a diversion or limited hangout.
The Ukrainians clearly had a motive for sabotaging the German-Russian pipelines but given that they don’t have a real navy, I can’t see them committing a sabotage act on that scale without help from a state actor.
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A German newspaper is also implying a Ukraine connection to the Nord Stream pipeline sabotage:
The German investigative authorities have apparently achieved a breakthrough in the investigation of the attack on the Nord Stream 1 and 2 pipelines. After a joint research by ARD-Hauptstadtstudio, the ARD political magazine Kontraste, the SWR and the ZEIT, it was possible to largely reconstruct how and when the explosive attack was prepared in the course of the investigation. According to this, traces lead towards Ukraine. However, the investigators have so far found no evidence of who commissioned the destruction. On the night of the 26th In September 2022, three of the total of four strands of the Nord Stream 1 and 2 pipelines at the bottom of the Baltic Sea had been destroyed by explosions.
https://www.zeit.de/politik/ausland/2023-03/nordstream-2-ukraine-anschlag
Interesting how these stories are breaking on the same day. Almost seems like a coordinated leak of raw intelligence.
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A German newspaper is also implying a Ukraine connection to the Nord Stream pipeline sabotage:
https://www.zeit.de/politik/ausland/2023-03/nordstream-2-ukraine-anschlag
Interesting how these stories are breaking on the same day. Almost seems like a coordinated leak of raw intelligence.
This German report seems to be the work of four newspapers/news organization based, as far as I can tell, on their own investigation. I don't see any sources from any intelligence agency in the story, any leaks.
Key graft (google translation): "Specifically, according to information from the ARD capital studio, the investigators are contrasts [??], SWR and ZEIT managed to identify the boat that was allegedly used for the secret operation. It is said to be a yacht rented from a company based in Poland, apparently owned by two Ukrainians. According to the investigation, the secret operation at sea was carried out by a team of six people. It is said to have been five men and one woman. Accordingly, the group consisted of a captain, two divers, two diving assistants and a doctor, who are said to have transported the explosives to the crime scenes and placed them there. The nationality of the perpetrators is apparently unclear. The assassins used professionally forged passports, which are said to have been used, among other things, to rent the boat."
Hell, it could have been Polish intelligence?
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This German report seems to be the work of four newspapers/news organization based, as far as I can tell, on their own investigation. I don't see any sources from any intelligence agency in the story, any leaks.
That doesn’t mean that they didn’t get some tips from intelligence officials.
The fact that both the NY Times and this German publication published similar articles on the same day a few days after Biden met with Germany’s head of state is either a huge coincidence, or coordinated.
Perhaps both Biden and Germany’s leader, Scholz agreed to leak some of the intelligence that they have on the Nord Stream issue? I wouldn’t rule it out. Alternatively, US intelligence officials might’ve leaked the same info to both the NY Times and the German news outlet although the German article provides more details than the NY Times so maybe it’s not the same sources.
Lastly, I’ve long considered the possibility that it may have been the Poles or Ukrainians or both. However, blowing up multiple pipelines that are 200ft underwater in an area patrolled by NATO countries seems too sophisticated for Ukraine or Poland to accomplish without the help or support of the major players in NATO.
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That doesn’t mean that they didn’t get some tips from intelligence officials.
The fact that both the NY Times and this German publication published similar articles on the same day a few days after Biden met with Germany’s head of state is either a huge coincidence, or coordinated.
Perhaps both Biden and Germany’s leader, Scholz agreed to leak some of the intelligence that they have on the Nord Stream issue? I wouldn’t rule it out. Alternatively, US intelligence officials might’ve leaked the same info to both the NY Times and the German news outlet although the German article provides more details than the NY Times so maybe it’s not the same sources.
Lastly, I’ve long considered the possibility that it may have been the Poles or Ukrainians or both. However, blowing up multiple pipelines that are 200ft underwater in an area patrolled by NATO countries seems too sophisticated for Ukraine or Poland to accomplish without the help or support of the major players in NATO.
However, blowing up multiple pipelines that are 200ft underwater in an area patrolled by NATO countries seems too sophisticated for Ukraine or Poland to accomplish without the help or support of the major players in NATO.
It's all speculation. We may never know what really happened, but you seem a bit too desperate to find a culprit in the West. Why is that?
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However, blowing up multiple pipelines that are 200ft underwater in an area patrolled by NATO countries seems too sophisticated for Ukraine or Poland to accomplish without the help or support of the major players in NATO.
It's all speculation. We may never know what really happened, but you seem a bit too desperate to find a culprit in the West. Why is that?
The new details further confirm that investigators and even US intelligence officials don’t think the Russians did it.
I’m not desperate. I wish it wasn’t true but the most plausible explanation is that the US or a NATO country was involved.
I’m open to the possibility that Ukrainians, Poles, or some other group did it without the help of a state actor but it seems unlikely.
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That doesn’t mean that they didn’t get some tips from intelligence officials.
The fact that both the NY Times and this German publication published similar articles on the same day a few days after Biden met with Germany’s head of state is either a huge coincidence, or coordinated.
Perhaps both Biden and Germany’s leader, Scholz agreed to leak some of the intelligence that they have on the Nord Stream issue? I wouldn’t rule it out. Alternatively, US intelligence officials might’ve leaked the same info to both the NY Times and the German news outlet although the German article provides more details than the NY Times so maybe it’s not the same sources.
Lastly, I’ve long considered the possibility that it may have been the Poles or Ukrainians or both. However, blowing up multiple pipelines that are 200ft underwater in an area patrolled by NATO countries seems too sophisticated for Ukraine or Poland to accomplish without the help or support of the major players in NATO.
Archive link, https://archive.is/HntrW
https://www.nytimes.com/2023/03/07/us/politics/nord-stream-pipeline-sabotage-ukraine.html
March 7. 2023
"Intelligence Suggests Pro-Ukrainian Group Sabotaged Pipelines, U.S. Officials Say
New intelligence reporting amounts to the first significant known lead about who was responsible for the attack on the Nord Stream pipelines that carried natural gas from Russia to Europe..."
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Great clip about this topic
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Six Russian naval vessels 'detected near site of Nord Stream pipeline five days before sabotage'
Story by Elizabeth Haigh
https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/world/six-russian-naval-vessels-detected-near-site-of-nord-stream-pipeline-five-days-before-sabotage/ar-AA196pTH?cvid=57fa2d8a02674ce1b05461fb1c0bdd9d&ei=25
Of course, Jon Banks and others would like us to believe that it was just a coincidence that there were Russia ships in the vicinity of the pipeline explosions in the Baltic. And it is also just a coincidence that this fleet contained a ship which carries a mini submarine capable of such a mission.
That the Russians wouldn't blow up their own pipeline any more than the Nazi's would burn down their own Reichstag.
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Of course, Jon Banks and others would like us to believe that it was just a coincidence that there were Russia ships in the vicinity of the pipeline explosions in the Baltic. And it is also just a coincidence that this fleet contained a ship which carries a mini submarine capable of such a mission.
Your guess is as good as everyone else's.
What's clear is that there was a conspiracy. This isn't the job of one person.
The remaining questions are: who had the means to sabotage three underwater pipelines simultaneously in waters patrolled by NATO and Baltic countries?
US and German intelligence apparently don't think the Russians blew up their own pipeline.
It's possible that a pro-Ukraine group did it independent of State-backing, as noted recently in the Press but I stand by my view that a State actor had to be involved given the complexity of such an operation.
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Six Russian naval vessels 'detected near site of Nord Stream pipeline five days before sabotage'
Story by Elizabeth Haigh
https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/world/six-russian-naval-vessels-detected-near-site-of-nord-stream-pipeline-five-days-before-sabotage/ar-AA196pTH?cvid=57fa2d8a02674ce1b05461fb1c0bdd9d&ei=25
Of course, Jon Banks and others would like us to believe that it was just a coincidence that there were Russia ships in the vicinity of the pipeline explosions in the Baltic. And it is also just a coincidence that this fleet contained a ship which carries a mini submarine capable of such a mission.
That the Russians wouldn't blow up their own pipeline any more than the Nazi's would burn down their own Reichstag.
There are always Russian ships in that area. That would be like noting that there were American ships near Hawaii. And, of course, the best evidence is that the Nazis didn't burn down the Reichstag. They only took advantage of the act of a Commie arsonist (we have similar acts in the US where leftist radicals try to burn down public buildings). Are you saying that the Russians could pull this operation off right under the noses of the US intelligence and NATO and they don't have proof with all their intelligence capabilities? And unlike your Reichstag example, the Russians have never used the pipeline attack as a pretext for taking any retaliatory act. It was Old Joe Biden who promised to "end" the pipeline if the Russians invaded Ukraine.
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There are always Russian ships in that area. That would be like noting that there were American ships near Hawaii. And, of course, the best evidence is that the Nazis didn't burn down the Reichstag. They only took advantage of the act of a Commie arsonist (we have similar acts in the US where leftist radicals try to burn down public buildings). Are you saying that the Russians could pull this operation off right under the noses of the US intelligence and NATO and they don't have proof with all their intelligence capabilities? And unlike your Reichstag example, the Russians have never used the pipeline attack as a pretext for taking any retaliatory act. It was Old Joe Biden who promised to "end" the pipeline if the Russians invaded Ukraine.
There are always Russian ships in that area.
With mini-submarines on board? How in the world would you even know that? Have you been there often or are you just repeating pro-Russia propaganda again?
Are you saying that the Russians could pull this operation off right under the noses of the US intelligence and NATO
Well, somebody was able to pull it off.
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Are you saying that the Russians could pull this operation off right under the noses of the US intelligence and NATO
Well, somebody was able to pull it off.
Wow. Such a valuable contribution. Maybe it was Dr. Evil and mini-me? You do raise one point. The best argument against it being Ukraine Joe being behind this is that it actually got blown up. If bungling Joe and his cast of clowns tried to pull it off, they likely would have blown up their own ships. Biden and his leftist propagandists are adept at half truths. Which means the US likely didn't actually push the button. They only facilitated the whole effort, and some NATO country denoted the explosion. So Biden can say that he didn't do it. And when the truth comes out years from now, his apologists will say that he never claimed Russia blew up its own pipeline etc. Alice-in-Wonderland logic. Round and round it goes.
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There are always Russian ships in that area. That would be like noting that there were American ships near Hawaii.
Yes. But always ships that carry a mini submarine that is perfect for the job?
And, of course, the best evidence is that the Nazis didn't burn down the Reichstag. They only took advantage of the act of a Commie arsonist (we have similar acts in the US where leftist radicals try to burn down public buildings).
Yes. But the larger point is that it's not impossible for a state to 'attack' itself. In 1939, Germany launched a fake 'attack' against a German radio station, staging it to look like a Polish attack across the border, to justify Germany's invasion of Poland. Sometimes states can 'attack' themselves.
Wouldn't it be simpler for Russia to just shut off the gas flow? Yes. But blowing it up serves two purposes.
1. Shuts of Germany from the gas flow.
2. Shows Germany that Russia is capable of anything. Watch out. Think extra carefully about sending military aid to Ukraine.
Are you saying that the Russians could pull this operation off right under the noses of the US intelligence and NATO and they don't have proof with all their intelligence capabilities? And unlike your Reichstag example, the Russians have never used the pipeline attack as a pretext for taking any retaliatory act. It was Old Joe Biden who promised to "end" the pipeline if the Russians invaded Ukraine.
Are you saying it's possible for the U. S. to pull this operation right under the noses of Russian intelligence, even with Russian ships in the area?
Obviously someone did pull this off under the noses of either the U. S. or Russia. Or Both. And it's not like this is impossible. It's not like the United States, or Russia, is constantly observing and recording every meter of the pipeline. It is certainly possible for Russia to do this. And very suspicious that they not only have Russian ships in the area, but the precise type of Russian ship that carries a mini submarine which is perfect for the operation.
Why Russia would not be considered the leading candidate in blowing up the pipeline is beyond me.
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Yes. But always ships that carry a mini submarine that is perfect for the job?
Yes. But the larger point is that it's not impossible for a state to 'attack' itself. In 1939, Germany launched a fake 'attack' against a German radio station, staging it to look like a Polish attack across the border, to justify Germany's invasion of Poland. Sometimes states can 'attack' themselves.
Wouldn't it be simpler for Russia to just shut off the gas flow? Yes. But blowing it up serves two purposes.
1. Shuts of Germany from the gas flow.
2. Shows Germany that Russia is capable of anything. Watch out. Think extra carefully about sending military aid to Ukraine.
Are you saying it's possible for the U. S. to pull this operation right under the noses of Russian intelligence, even with Russian ships in the area?
Obviously someone did pull this off under the noses of either the U. S. or Russia. Or Both. And it's not like this is impossible. It's not like the United States, or Russia, is constantly observing and recording every meter of the pipeline. It is certainly possible for Russia to do this. And very suspicious that they not only have Russian ships in the area, but the precise type of Russian ship that carries a mini submarine which is perfect for the operation.
Why Russia would not be considered the leading candidate in blowing up the pipeline is beyond me.
The German example you cite was to create a provocation for an invasion. The Germans created false reasons for an invasion. That makes no sense in this context since the Russians had already invaded Ukraine. The pipeline was destroyed AFTER the invasion. Russia never suggested or used the pipeline incident as a justification for invading Ukraine or any other purpose. In contrast, Joe Biden said before the invasion that if Russia invaded Ukraine, he would END this particular pipeline. Russia invaded Ukraine and the pipeline was blown up. This scenario fits perfectly with NATO, led by the US, destroying the pipeline in retaliation of the Russian invasion. Either the British or Poles taking the lead.
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Obviously someone did pull this off under the noses of either the U. S. or Russia. Or Both. And it's not like this is impossible. It's not like the United States, or Russia, is constantly observing and recording every meter of the pipeline. It is certainly possible for Russia to do this. And very suspicious that they not only have Russian ships in the area, but the precise type of Russian ship that carries a mini submarine which is perfect for the operation.
FWIW, it wouldn't be the first time the US sabotaged a Russian pipeline:
"In January 1982, President Ronald Reagan approved a CIA plan to sabotage the economy of the Soviet Union through covert transfers of technology that contained hidden malfunctions, including software that later triggered a huge explosion in a Siberian natural gas pipeline, according to a new memoir by a Reagan White House official.
Thomas C. Reed, a former Air Force secretary who was serving in the National Security Council at the time, describes the episode in "At the Abyss: An Insider's History of the Cold War," to be published next month by Ballantine Books. Reed writes that the pipeline explosion was just one example of "cold-eyed economic warfare" against the Soviet Union that the CIA carried out under Director William J. Casey during the final years of the Cold War.
At the time, the United States was attempting to block Western Europe from importing Soviet natural gas. There were also signs that the Soviets were trying to steal a wide variety of Western technology. Then, a KGB insider revealed the specific shopping list and the CIA slipped the flawed software to the Soviets in a way they would not detect it."
https://www.washingtonpost.com/archive/politics/2004/02/27/reagan-approved-plan-to-sabotage-soviets/a9184eff-47fd-402e-beb2-63970851e130/
As I noted earlier, the US foreign policy establishment has long opposed the Germany-Russia pipelines. Seems like too much of a coincidence that the pipeline sabotage works out in favor of our policy goals.
January 2023 - 1st Tanker Carrying LNG From US Arrives in Germany
https://www.usnews.com/news/business/articles/2023-01-03/1st-tanker-carrying-lng-from-us-arrives-in-germany
Why Russia would not be considered the leading candidate in blowing up the pipeline is beyond me.
You'll have to ask Western intelligence agencies why. Surely they would love to blame Russia but the evidence appears to be lacking.
No conclusive evidence Russia is behind Nord Stream attack
https://www.washingtonpost.com/national-security/2022/12/21/russia-nord-stream-explosions/
Intelligence officials suspect Ukraine partisans behind Nord Stream bombings
https://www.washingtonpost.com/national-security/2023/03/07/intelligence-officials-suspect-ukraine-partisans-behind-nord-stream-bombings-rattling-kyivs-allies/
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Are you saying that the Russians could pull this operation off right under the noses of the US intelligence and NATO
Well, somebody was able to pull it off.
Wow. Such a valuable contribution. Maybe it was Dr. Evil and mini-me? You do raise one point. The best argument against it being Ukraine Joe being behind this is that it actually got blown up. If bungling Joe and his cast of clowns tried to pull it off, they likely would have blown up their own ships. Biden and his leftist propagandists are adept at half truths. Which means the US likely didn't actually push the button. They only facilitated the whole effort, and some NATO country denoted the explosion. So Biden can say that he didn't do it. And when the truth comes out years from now, his apologists will say that he never claimed Russia blew up its own pipeline etc. Alice-in-Wonderland logic. Round and round it goes.
Wow. Such a valuable contribution.
Yes indeed, because it showed just how silly your question really was.
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Wow. Such a valuable contribution.
Yes indeed, because it showed just how silly your question really was.
Another valuable contribution from "Europe." Much like the contribution from "Europe" to Ukraine.
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Another valuable contribution from "Europe." Much like the contribution from "Europe" to Ukraine.
Another valuable contribution from "Europe."
Do you think Europe doesn't exist, or what?
Much like the contribution from "Europe" to Ukraine.
Did you hear? Leopard 2 tanks (the most advance weapon system in that field in the world) was delivered to Ukraine by several European countries, free of charge.
When was the first US tank delivered?
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Another valuable contribution from "Europe."
Do you think Europe doesn't exist, or what?
Much like the contribution from "Europe" to Ukraine.
Did you hear? Leopard 2 tanks (the most advance weapon system in that field in the world) was delivered to Ukraine by several European countries, free of charge.
When was the first US tank delivered?
The US had to force Germany to hand over a few tanks. Big deal. Isn't this war to save "Europe", which includes Germany, from Putin? If so, why don't they send all their tanks? And France, Italy, and Poland as well. Instead, they are laughing at Ukraine Joe for sending hundreds of billions that are being stolen or funneled to corrupt military contractors. The US military just requested the highest budget in its history today! What a coincidence. They have an endless war and need trillions for the foreseeable future to fight it. What a shocker. We have never seen this game before like in places called Vietnam, Afghanistan and Iraq. Let the money flow. It's all going well they tell us. Just a few more years and a couple more trillion will get it done.
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The US had to force Germany to hand over a few tanks. Big deal. Isn't this war to save "Europe", which includes Germany, from Putin? If so, why don't they send all their tanks? And France, Italy, and Poland as well. Instead, they are laughing at Ukraine Joe for sending hundreds of billions that are being stolen or funneled to corrupt military contractors. The US military just requested the highest budget in its history today! What a coincidence. They have an endless war and need trillions for the foreseeable future to fight it. What a shocker. We have never seen this game before like in places called Vietnam, Afghanistan and Iraq. Let the money flow. It's all going well they tell us. Just a few more years and a couple more trillion will get it done.
The US had to force Germany to hand over a few tanks. Big deal.
That's an outright lie.
Isn't this war to save "Europe", which includes Germany, from Putin? If so, why don't they send all their tanks? And France, Italy, and Poland as well.
You really like to over-simplify things, don't you? Is that the only way you can "understand" things?
Instead, they are laughing at Ukraine Joe for sending hundreds of billions that are being stolen or funneled to corrupt military contractors.
Wow... hold the presses... Joe Biden is stealing "hundreds of billions".... Oh wait, it's just another pathetic claim by Grumpy. Roll the presses...
The US military just requested the highest budget in its history today! What a coincidence.
No coincidence at all. They do it every year,
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The US had to force Germany to hand over a few tanks. Big deal.
That's an outright lie.
Isn't this war to save "Europe", which includes Germany, from Putin? If so, why don't they send all their tanks? And France, Italy, and Poland as well.
You really like to over-simplify things, don't you? Is that the only way you can "understand" things?
Instead, they are laughing at Ukraine Joe for sending hundreds of billions that are being stolen or funneled to corrupt military contractors.
Wow... hold the presses... Joe Biden is stealing "hundreds of billions".... Oh wait, it's just another pathetic claim by Grumpy. Roll the presses...
The US military just requested the highest budget in its history today! What a coincidence.
No coincidence at all. They do it every year,
No one said Ukraine Joe is stealing this money. Try reading. It is being stolen and misused in the way that billions were stolen and misused by the so called COVID relief (as documented by Biden's own administration). Mostly by corrupt Ukranians and US military contractors. And the Germans weren't forced to hand over a few tanks? They did kicking and screaming ONLY after the US agreed to send tanks. LOL.
Newsweek (Jan. 23 headline):
Despite mounting pressure from the international community, the German government has so far been reluctant to provide Ukraine with high-powered Leopard 2 tanks in its ongoing fight against invading Russian forces, even as other countries have begun ramping up military aid to the war-torn country.
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No one said Ukraine Joe is stealing this money. Try reading. It is being stolen and misused in the way that billions were stolen and misused by the so called COVID relief (as documented by Biden's own administration). Mostly by corrupt Ukranians and US military contractors. And the Germans weren't forced to hand over a few tanks? They did kicking and screaming ONLY after the US agreed to send tanks. LOL.
Newsweek (Jan. 23 headline):
Despite mounting pressure from the international community, the German government has so far been reluctant to provide Ukraine with high-powered Leopard 2 tanks in its ongoing fight against invading Russian forces, even as other countries have begun ramping up military aid to the war-torn country.
And the Germans weren't forced to hand over a few tanks?
Germany had a law in place that did not allow supplying weapons to countries involved in a war. The war dates back to the aftermath of WWII. They had to change the law and ultimately did so because there was a majority in their parlement to do so. Did the international community want them to change the law? Sure, but they made the decision and were not forced to do so, as you foolishly claimed.
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And the Germans weren't forced to hand over a few tanks?
Germany had a law in place that did not allow supplying weapons to countries involved in a war. The war dates back to the aftermath of WWII. They had to change the law and ultimately did so because there was a majority in their parlement to do so. Did the international community want them to change the law? Sure, but they made the decision and were not forced to do so, as you foolishly claimed.
LOL. Why did other countries have to pressure them to do this? That is simply a fact as stated by numerous countries and press reports. Why didn't they go ahead and do it voluntarily months beforehand? They made no effort to provide these tanks until the international community (mostly the US) pressured them to do so. And then they only agreed if the US would also provide tanks. The Germans have been reluctant to provide any support to Ukraine. Instead they are letting the US bear the burden. I don't blame them. If Ukraine Joe and corrupt political establishment in the US are stupid enough to repeat this same mistake again, then why should Germany do anything?
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LOL. Why did other countries have to pressure them to do this? That is simply a fact as stated by numerous countries and press reports. Why didn't they go ahead and do it voluntarily months beforehand? They made no effort to provide these tanks until the international community (mostly the US) pressured them to do so. And then they only agreed if the US would also provide tanks. The Germans have been reluctant to provide any support to Ukraine. Instead they are letting the US bear the burden. I don't blame them. If Ukraine Joe and corrupt political establishment in the US are stupid enough to repeat this same mistake again, then why should Germany do anything?
They made no effort to provide these tanks until the international community (mostly the US) pressured them to do so.
Again, simply not true. It was a delicate matter for the Germans and they were indeed hestitant to cross that line, which is why they first released other countries, like Poland and Spain, from the obligation not to sell or hand over German made weapons to a country at war.
And then they only agreed if the US would also provide tanks.
The vote in the German parlement did not rely on this at all. It may well have been part of international negotiations, but ultimately it was the Germans who decided to change their own law.
Funny enough, you are constantly complaining about Biden's administration, yet here you seem to praise them from telling the Germans what to do.
The Germans have been reluctant to provide any support to Ukraine.
Oh boy... after three wars in less than a century, they did not want to be drawn into another militairy conflict. It's for the same reason that NATO is treading lightly.
Instead they are letting the US bear the burden.
No matter how often you say this, it's still not true.
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They made no effort to provide these tanks until the international community (mostly the US) pressured them to do so.
Again, simply not true. It was a delicate matter for the Germans and they were indeed hestitant to cross that line, which is why they first released other countries, like Poland and Spain, from the obligation not to sell or hand over German made weapons to a country at war.
And then they only agreed if the US would also provide tanks.
The vote in the German parlement did not rely on this at all. It may well have been part of international negotiations, but ultimately it was the Germans who decided to change their own law.
Funny enough, you are constantly complaining about Biden's administration, yet here you seen to praise them from telling the Germans what to do.
The Germans have been reluctant to provide any support to Ukraine.
Oh boy... after three wars in less than a century, they did not want to be drawn into another militairy conflict. It's for the same reason that NATO is treading lightly.
Instead they are letting the US bear the burden.
No matter how often you say this, it's still not true.
So the Germans were reluctant to provide these tanks and had to be pressured to do so whatever the reason. From past experience they understandably don't want to be drawn into this conflict. Unfortunately, the US never learned that lesson. Even after Vietnam, Afghanistan and Iraq. The same story repeated over and over. Ukraine Joe just got out of Afghanistan - albeit in the most disgrace and incompetent way - and allowed himself to be drawn into another endless conflict by exactly the same people who supported these previous foreign policy disasters.
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So the Germans were reluctant to provide these tanks and had to be pressured to do so whatever the reason. From past experience they understandably don't want to be drawn into this conflict. Unfortunately, the US never learned that lesson. Even after Vietnam, Afghanistan and Iraq. The same story repeated over and over. Ukraine Joe just got out of Afghanistan - albeit in the most disgrace and incompetent way - and allowed himself to be drawn into another endless conflict by exactly the same people who supported these previous foreign policy disasters.
So the Germans were reluctant to provide these tanks and had to be pressured to do so whatever the reason.
Once again you are making up your own "reality", as you have been doing so many times before. Have fun with it!
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So the Germans were reluctant to provide these tanks and had to be pressured to do so whatever the reason.
Once again you are making up your own "reality", as you have been doing so many times before. Have fun with it!
Just reading what you wrote.
"It was a delicate matter for the Germans and they were indeed hestitant to cross that line"
"after three wars in less than a century, they did not want to be drawn into another militairy conflict. It's for the same reason that NATO is treading lightly."
Again, I'm not criticizing the Germans and NATO countries. In fact, the opposite. There is good reason to be "hesitant" when getting involved in an endless regional conflict. The US never learns that lesson or the corrupt politicians intentionally disregard it to gain access to billions of dollars. Either way another disaster in the works. The disputed regions of Ukraine are now a moonscape.
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Just reading what you wrote.
"It was a delicate matter for the Germans and they were indeed hestitant to cross that line"
"after three wars in less than a century, they did not want to be drawn into another militairy conflict. It's for the same reason that NATO is treading lightly."
Again, I'm not criticizing the Germans and NATO countries. In fact, the opposite. There is good reason to be "hesitant" when getting involved in an endless regional conflict. The US never learns that lesson or the corrupt politicians intentionally disregard it to gain access to billions of dollars. Either way another disaster in the works. The disputed regions of Ukraine are now a moonscape.
What you are not getting is that the Germans were not pressured to change their own law. They did so, although reluctant, because they understood the need and urgency to do so. When the Balkan war was going on they refused to supply weapons because it was a regional conflict. This time around the implications of Putin not being stopped dead in his tracks were simply to great for them. They, Nato and Biden understand what you don't. You just are happy to trade human lives for (saving) money.
And, you may find this disturbing, but the Russian advance in Bakhmut has now been halted, the Wagner group is admitting to heavy losses, Ukraine forces are now advancing at Melitopol (which will allow them to cut of Russian supply lines to Crimea) and Putin is now admitting that the economic sanctions are taking their toll on his country. The U.K. has now supplied tanks to Ukraine, as have Poland and Germany. It may take a while but the right side is winning... and all you can do is complain about how much money the US is putting into it. It's pathetic!
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What you are not getting is that the Germans were not pressured to change their own law. They did so, although reluctant, because they understood the need and urgency to do so. When the Balkan war was going on they refused to supply weapons because it was a regional conflict. This time around the implications of Putin not being stopped dead in his tracks were simply to great for them. They, Nato and Biden understand what you don't. You just are happy to trade human lives for (saving) money.
And, you may find this disturbing, but the Russian advance in Bakhmut has now been halted, the Wagner group is admitting to heavy losses, Ukraine forces are now advancing at Melitopol (which will allow them to cut of Russian supply lines to Crimea) and Putin is now admitting that the economic sanctions are taking their toll on his country. The U.K. has now supplied tanks to Ukraine, as have Poland and Germany. It may take a while but the right side is winning... and all you can do is complain about how much money the US is putting into it. It's pathetic!
The Germans were clearly pressured by the US and other countries to do this. It is a matter of record. The Germans and other NATO countries have contributed very little to this effort despite the repeated claims that they are most at risk from Russia. They don't seem particularly worried, though, and are understandably content to let the US bankroll this effort as the US has bankrolled their national defense for the last 70 years.
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The Germans were clearly pressured by the US and other countries to do this. It is a matter of record. The Germans and other NATO countries have contributed very little to this effort despite the repeated claims that they are most at risk from Russia. They don't seem particularly worried, though, and are understandably content to let the US bankroll this effort as the US has bankrolled their national defense for the last 70 years.
The Germans were clearly pressured by the US and other countries to do this. It is a matter of record.
Produce the record!
The Germans and other NATO countries have contributed very little to this effort despite the repeated claims that they are most at risk from Russia. They don't seem particularly worried, though, and are understandably content to let the US bankroll this effort
You need new material. This BS is getting old and repeating it time after time doesn't make it true
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The Germans were clearly pressured by the US and other countries to do this. It is a matter of record.
Produce the record!
The Germans and other NATO countries have contributed very little to this effort despite the repeated claims that they are most at risk from Russia. They don't seem particularly worried, though, and are understandably content to let the US bankroll this effort
You need new material. This BS is getting old and repeating it time after time doesn't make it true
https://www.cfr.org/article/how-much-aid-has-us-sent-ukraine-here-are-six-charts
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I guess the investigation here goes on and on. Maybe seven years from now we will find out what happened. Like the Durham report. Like the Wuhan lab. Like Hunter's laptop. Of course, anyone with an ounce of common sense knows that the story that the Russians did this doesn't add up.
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I guess the investigation here goes on and on. Maybe seven years from now we will find out what happened. Like the Durham report. Like the Wuhan lab. Like Hunter's laptop. Of course, anyone with an ounce of common sense knows that the story that the Russians did this doesn't add up.
Just too bad that the Danish authorities have released information that, in the days prior to the explosions, a Russian ship was sighted near the site.
So much for "common sense"
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I guess the investigation here goes on and on. Maybe seven years from now we will find out what happened. Like the Durham report. Like the Wuhan lab. Like Hunter's laptop. Of course, anyone with an ounce of common sense knows that the story that the Russians did this doesn't add up.
In 50 years, we'll find out it was the US, just like the admission of our responsibility in overthrowing Iran's President took around 50 years.
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Just too bad that the Danish authorities have released information that, in the days prior to the explosions, a Russian ship was sighted near the site.
So much for "common sense"
Doesn't prove anything.
No one doubts that Russia has the capability an opportunities. The problem is they lack a motive and they even tried unsuccessfully to repair the pipelines. They've also been more outspoken than other countries in calling for an international investigation.
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Just too bad that the Danish authorities have released information that, in the days prior to the explosions, a Russian ship was sighted near the site.
So much for "common sense"
Imagine a Russian ship in the Baltic in "the days prior to the explosion"! I guess that resolves the issue. Nothing to see and no need to apply logic. HA HA HA. We finally have an example of what a contrarian accepts to be conclusive evidence of a fact. Something never provided in the JFK assassination.
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Doesn't prove anything.
No one doubts that Russia has the capability an opportunities. The problem is they lack a motive and they even tried unsuccessfully to repair the pipelines. They've also been more outspoken than other countries in calling for an international investigation.
Do you even know the story? I seriously doubt it.
Having said that, of course does the presence of that particular Russian ship not prove it was the Russians. It just means that the Russians can not be ruled out as you seem to be so eager to do.
Imagine a Russian ship in the Baltic in "the days prior to the explosion"! I guess that resolves the issue. Nothing to see and no need to apply logic. HA HA HA. We finally have an example of what a contrarian accepts to be conclusive evidence of a fact. Something never provided in the JFK assassination.
You don't even know what kind of ship it was and as per usual you talk about things you know absolutely nothing about.
I don't consider the ship's presence conclusive evidence of anything. That just you, making stuff up again.
Here, read (or try to) and learn;
https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-65461401
or watch a video, if you prefer;
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Do you even know the story? I seriously doubt it.
You don't even know what kind of ship it was and as per usual you talk about things you know absolutely nothing about.
I've read articles about it. Saw photos of the Russian ship. It's not proof of anything.
I also can't prove that Biden ordered the pipeline sabotage. I just intuitively believe it was the US based on motive, means, and opportunity.
I documented in this thread how the US has opposed the German-Russian pipelines for almost 20 years.
Hersh and others noted how Biden said he would "end nord stream" if Russia invaded Ukraine. When asked "how" he would do that, he didn't give an answer. That press conference happened shortly before Russia's invasion of Ukraine.
So whether you agree with my conclusion or not, the US is and should be a suspect...
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I've read articles about it. Saw photos of the Russian ship. It's not proof of anything.
I also can't prove that Biden ordered the pipeline sabotage. I just intuitively believe it was the US based on motive, means, and opportunity.
I documented in this thread how the US has opposed the German-Russian pipelines for almost 20 years.
Hersh and others noted how Biden said he would "end nord stream" if Russia invaded Ukraine. When asked "how" he would do that, he didn't give an answer. That press conference happened shortly before Russia's invasion of Ukraine.
So whether you agree with my conclusion or not, the US is and should be a suspect...
So whether you agree with it or not, the Russians can not be ruled out either...
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So whether you agree with it or not, the Russians can not be ruled out either...
Anything is possible but let's say I view the Russians among the least likely suspects in this case.
The NY Times and other western news outlets reported months ago that the intelligence agencies have little evidence pointing to Russian culpability for what it's worth:
Some initial U.S. and European speculation centered on possible Russian culpability, especially given its prowess in undersea operations, though it is unclear what motivation the Kremlin would have in sabotaging the pipelines given that they have been an important source of revenue and a means for Moscow to exert influence over Europe. One estimate put the cost of repairing the pipelines starting at about $500 million. U.S. officials say they have not found any evidence of involvement by the Russian government in the attack.
https://www.nytimes.com/2023/03/07/us/politics/nord-stream-pipeline-sabotage-ukraine.html
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Anything is possible but let's say I view the Russians among the least likely suspects in this case.
The NY Times and other western news outlets reported months ago that the intelligence agencies have little evidence pointing to Russian culpability for what it's worth:
Some initial U.S. and European speculation centered on possible Russian culpability, especially given its prowess in undersea operations, though it is unclear what motivation the Kremlin would have in sabotaging the pipelines given that they have been an important source of revenue and a means for Moscow to exert influence over Europe. One estimate put the cost of repairing the pipelines starting at about $500 million. U.S. officials say they have not found any evidence of involvement by the Russian government in the attack.
https://www.nytimes.com/2023/03/07/us/politics/nord-stream-pipeline-sabotage-ukraine.html
Anything is possible but let's say I view the Russians among the least likely suspects in this case.
And what makes your theory superior to other theories? Let me be clear, I haven't got a clue who was really behind it, nor do I really care. But the mere fact that you can't think of a possible motive for Russia being responsable isn't very convincing.
You don't find it remarkable that several Russian Navy ships equiped for underwater operations were seen near the location of the explosions? Just a coincidence, perhaps?
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You don't find it remarkable that several Russian Navy ships equiped for underwater operations were seen near the location of the explosions? Just a coincidence, perhaps?
Let me throw that back at you.
Do you honestly believe:
A) that Russia would use their own naval ship to destroy infrastructure in waters patrolled by several NATO countries without expecting to get caught?
and
B) that NATO wasn't surveilling the movements of the Russian naval ship nine months ago when the sabotage happened?
You'd have to be naïve to believe the above two points.
And yes, the lack of a motive weighs heavy in my conclusion that it probably wasn't Russia. They spent billions to build both pipelines and lost what little leverage they had over Germany when the pipelines were destroyed.
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Let me throw that back at you.
Do you honestly believe:
A) that Russia would use their own naval ship to destroy infrastructure in waters patrolled by several NATO countries without expecting to get caught?
and
B) that NATO wasn't surveilling the movements of the Russian naval ship nine months ago when the sabotage happened?
You'd have to be naïve to believe the above two points.
And yes, the lack of a motive weighs heavy in my conclusion that it probably wasn't Russia. They spent billions to build both pipelines and lost what little leverage they had over Germany when the pipelines were destroyed.
Answering a question with a question is a clear sign of weakness and a typical strategy for not wanting to answer the question simply because you don't like the obvious answer.
Do you honestly believe:
A) that Russia would use their own naval ship to destroy infrastructure in waters patrolled by several NATO countries without expecting to get caught?
and
B) that NATO wasn't surveilling the movements of the Russian naval ship nine months ago when the sabotage happened?
You'd have to be naïve to believe the above two points.
Of course NATO was surveilling the movements of Russian ships. Having said that, I believe Putin is capable of anything, but you are right it would be a bit stupid but so was invading Ukraine as well....
Putin is very much aware that idiots like Trump blurred the lines between actual reality and desired alternative reality. Nowadays you can get away with much as long as you put enough spin on it and convince enough people that your BS is actually true. Against that background it doesn't really matter if NATO saw the Russian ships or not. Propaganda is the game of the moment.
And yes, the lack of a motive weighs heavy in my conclusion that it probably wasn't Russia. They spent billions to build both pipelines and lost what little leverage they had over Germany when the pipelines were destroyed.
Russia made a very stupid miscalculation. They figured that the West would continue to be dependent on their oil and gas after they invaded Ukraine. Instead, it exposed a weakness the EU countries needed to deal with and they now have found other sources of supply. They are already fully stocked up for the next winter and Russia now has to sell it's oil and gas at rock bottom prices to the few countries that still want to deal with them. Meanwhile gas prices in Europe have been dropping to below pre-covid days.
Putin may well have spent billions of those pipelines, but only one was ever functional and there is very little chance that the EU countries will ever trust Russia again. With that in mind, the two pipelines had no real value for Russia anymore, so why not blow them up and create another "look what they are doing to us", just like the drones over the Kremlin hoax?
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Of course NATO was surveilling the movements of Russian ships. Having said that, I believe Putin is capable of anything, but you are right it would be a bit stupid but so was invading Ukraine as well....
Invading Ukraine makes sense for Russia. While I think Putin miscalculated, in terms of maybe thinking Ukraine would fold after a few weeks of war or underestimating how much NATO countries would support Ukraine, I don’t see his invasion as without a rational motive.
Blowing up his own pipelines makes zero sense for Russia. The war in Ukraine makes some sense. If nothing else, a divided Ukraine prevents them from joining NATO.
OTOH, the US has long wanted to get Europe to stop importing so much Russian energy. The pipeline sabotage plays into our long-term geopolitical strategies, not Russia’s.
And this wouldn’t be the first pipeline the US has sabotaged. In the 1980’s the CIA sabotaged the Siberian pipeline. Google it…
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Invading Ukraine makes sense for Russia. While I think Putin miscalculated, in terms of maybe thinking Ukraine would fold after a few weeks of war or underestimating how much NATO countries would support Ukraine, I don’t see his invasion as without a rational motive.
Blowing up his own pipelines makes zero sense for Russia. The war in Ukraine makes some sense. If nothing else, a divided Ukraine prevents them from joining NATO.
OTOH, the US has long wanted to get Europe to stop importing so much Russian energy. The pipeline sabotage plays into our long-term geopolitical strategies, not Russia’s.
And this wouldn’t be the first pipeline the US has sabotaged. In the 1980’s the CIA sabotaged the Siberian pipeline. Google it…
Are you Russian?
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Are you Russian?
Yes, anyone who questions the government must be an agent of Putin. Perhaps Jon is "colluding" with the Russian. That hoax worked well for the leftists.
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Yes, anyone who questions the government must be an agent of Putin. Perhaps Jon is "colluding" with the Russian. That hoax worked well for the leftists.
Sen. Joe McCarthy was resurrected after the 2016 election. :D
No, I’m not Russian. And it’s sad that Americans get accused of being “pro-Russia” when we acknowledge the nuances and complexities of US-Russia policies.
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Sen. Joe McCarthy was resurrected after the 2016 election. :D
No, I’m not Russian. And it’s sad that Americans get accused of being “pro-Russia” when we acknowledge the nuances and complexities of US-Russia policies.
It's a common intimidation tactic of the modern leftist. Anyone who disputes the party line is accussued of being a Russian agent. So much irony. In the McCarthy days, it was actually the leftists who stood up to such tactics. Modern leftists have abandoned freedom of speech, though. They have become Big Brother.
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It's a common intimidation tactic of the modern leftist. Anyone who disputes the party line is accussued of being a Russian agent. So much irony. In the McCarthy days, it was actually the leftists who stood up to such tactics. Modern leftists have abandoned freedom of speech, though. They have become Big Brother.
Only in your delusional paranoid mind.
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Only in your delusional paranoid mind.
From the guy who just accused someone on this board of being "Russian" because he was skeptical of the "official" story. So ironic given the source. That's not paranoid - right? HA HA HA.
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From the guy who just accused someone on this board of being "Russian" because he was skeptical of the "official" story. So ironic given the source. That's not paranoid - right? HA HA HA.
More delusion. You can't distinguish between accusing someone and merely asking a question?
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It's a common intimidation tactic of the modern leftist. Anyone who disputes the party line is accussued of being a Russian agent. So much irony. In the McCarthy days, it was actually the leftists who stood up to such tactics. Modern leftists have abandoned freedom of speech, though. They have become Big Brother.
Anyone who disputes the party line is accussued of being a Russian agent.
Not really, but anybody who sings the praises of Putin (as you constantly do) may well be.
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Anyone who disputes the party line is accussued of being a Russian agent.
Not really, but anybody who sings the praises of Putin (as you constantly do) may well be.
So you entertain the possibility that Jon is a Russian agent? And the Russians are using the JFK forum to disseminate propaganda. But others here are paranoid? HA HA HA. Keep protecting the "official" story. Ukraine Joe needs all the help he can get. How long until Zelensky claims that he needs NATO ground troops? The same way he needed missile defense systems, tanks and now F16s. All items that Old Joe claimed weren't necessary but then he sent. It's coming soon. The creeping escalation trap of Vietnam is playing out again. Just a little more. And then some more. And then they are in so deep that pulling out is not politically possible.
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So you entertain the possibility that Jon is a Russian agent? And the Russians are using the JFK forum to disseminate propaganda. But others here are paranoid? HA HA HA. Keep protecting the "official" story. Ukraine Joe needs all the help he can get. How long until Zelensky claims that he needs NATO ground troops? The same way he needed missile defense systems, tanks and now F16s. All items that Old Joe claimed weren't necessary but then he sent. It's coming soon. The creeping escalation trap of Vietnam is playing out again. Just a little more. And then some more. And then they are in so deep that pulling out is not politically possible.
So you entertain the possibility that Jon is a Russian agent?
No. Nor do I entertain the same in your case. But both of you are clearly propagandists for Russia, ran by a (in all but name) dictator.
And the Russians are using the JFK forum to disseminate propaganda.
Look at where your delusional mind is going.... Nobody said anything of the sort. The mere fact that some people feel a desperate need to make propaganda for Russia doesn't mean that Russia is behind it or even using them.
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Neither of us are “propagandists for Russia”. That’s an Ad Hominem attack.
Not everyone agrees with the Biden administration’s foreign policies. And that’s totally normal. Not sure why you feel the need to accuse others of nefarious motives rather than accept that some simply disagree.
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So you entertain the possibility that Jon is a Russian agent?
No. Nor do I enterain the same in your case. But both of you are clearly propagandists for Russia, ran by a (in all but name) dictator.
And the Russians are using the JFK forum to disseminate propaganda.
Look at where your delusional mind is going.... Nobody said anything of the sort. The mere fact that some people feel a desperate need to make propaganda for Russia doesn't mean that Russia is behind it or even using them.
We are not Russian agents but propagandists for Russia? Working on our own time. LOL. Why ask if Jon was Russian then?
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Neither of us are “propagandists for Russia”. That’s an Ad Hominem attack.
Not everyone agrees with the Biden administration’s foreign policies. And that’s totally normal. Not sure why you feel the need to accuse others of nefarious motives rather than accept that some simply disagree.
Not everyone agrees with the Biden administration’s foreign policies. And that’s totally normal.
True. I also don't agree with all the Biden policies. The difference between you and me is that I don't sing the praises of Putin time after time. All you need to do is read some of your old posts.
We are not Russian agents but propagandists for Russia? Working on our own time. LOL. Why ask if Jon was Russian then?
You and John are in no way alike. John clearly expresses pro-Russian sentiments but he does so with an explanation.
You on the other hand are always an extreme antagonist and a propagandist who never explains anything and with whom it's impossible to have a normal conversation. Having said that, the only thing you do have in common with John is that you (like your Orange master) are also pro-Putin.
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Not everyone agrees with the Biden administration’s foreign policies. And that’s totally normal.
True. I also don't agree with all the Biden policies. The difference between you and me is that I don't sing the praises of Putin time after time. All you need to do is read some of your old posts.
You and John are in no way alike. John clearly expresses pro-Russian sentiments but he does so with an explanation.
You on the other hand are always an extreme antagonist and a propagandist who never explains anything and with whom it's impossible to have a normal conversation. Having said that, the only thing you do have in common with John is that you (like your Orange master) are also pro-Putin.
How is it "pro-Putin" to point out that the US has no clear interest in this war, is paying a disproportionate amount than NATO countries in "Europe" that are allegedly more at risk, and questioning what the end game is here? That seems pro-American. Was it pro-Ho Chi Minh to question the justification and conduct of the Vietnam war? Liberals celebrated that type of dissent. But now someone is pro-Putin if they question the "official" story. And lectures from "Europe" about this topic are particularly humorous given that "Europe" has largely checked out. Leftist once opposed these endless foreign conflicts with good cause. Sadly, that day is long gone.
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True. I also don't agree with all the Biden policies. The difference between you and me is that I don't sing the praises of Putin time after time. All you need to do is read some of your old posts.
Point me to an example of where I’ve “praised Putin”.
If you can’t cite any examples, I demand an apology from you.
Trump really broke your brain. I used to be Democrat but now I’m an independent because Democrats lost their minds after Trump won in 2016.
The paranoia about “Russian disinformation” and obsession with censoring dissenting points of view is a huge turnoff to me given that I view myself as an old school ACLU Liberal…
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German investigators continue to suspect Ukrainian involvement in the pipeline attacks:
UKRAINE carried out Nord Stream pipe blast, German police suspect - despite suspicious Russian naval activity in the area
German investigators are pursuing leads which could implicate Ukraine in carrying out the mysterious Nord Stream pipeline blasts last September, according to a new report.
It comes despite suspicious Russian naval activity in the area just days prior to the still-unexplained explosions on the pipelines that were built to transport gas from Russia to Germany.
The Times reports that the Federal Office of Criminal Investigation (BKA) is now investigating new leads that could implicate Ukraine and clear Russia of any wrongdoing.
In fact, investigative journalists from Germany, Poland, Sweden and Denmark claimed today that the BKA were unconvinced of any Russian sabotage after thoroughly examining Moscow's naval manoeuvres around the site of the blasts.
German investigators have now turned their attention to the Andromeda - a yacht hire by a Polish company from the north German port of Rostock just weeks before the explosions were carried out.
Andromeda is said to have docked in the marina of Christianso - a tiny Danish island northeast of Bornholm and in close proximity to where the three bombs went off - in the days leading up to the sabotage.
The yacht was found with traces of 'military-grade and underwater-deployable' explosives.
The theory suggests that five men and woman arrived in Germany using fake Bulgarian and Romanian passports before using the yacht as a base to deploy trained divers to plant the bombs around 70m below sea level.
German investigators argue that the attacks would have required aid from state security services and claim to have found evidence that could implicate Ukraine, according to the Süddeutsche Zeitung newspaper.
The complex trail is said to lead to a shell company, a travel bureau, which was created by two Ukrainians in Warsaw.
The report also suggests German authorities have singled out two other Ukrainians, from near Kyiv and Odesa, as other members on board the yacht. One, a 26-year-old man, is alleged to have previously served in Ukraine's army.
Despite these theories surfacing, security analysts have raised doubts over how such a complex operation could have been carried out by a tiny group on a small yacht without a submarine…
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-12112113/UKRAINE-carried-Nord-Stream-pipe-blast-German-police-suspect.html
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Economist, Jeffrey Sachs, on Nord Stream, the media, and the Ukraine war
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US intelligence continues to leak their suspicions about Ukrainian involvement with the pipeline attack:
U.S. had intelligence of detailed Ukrainian plan to attack Nord Stream pipeline
Three months before saboteurs bombed the Nord Stream natural gas pipeline, the Biden administration learned from a close ally that the Ukrainian military had planned a covert attack on the undersea network, using a small team of divers who reported directly to the commander in chief of the Ukrainian armed forces.
Details about the plan, which have not been previously reported, were collected by a European intelligence service and shared with the CIA in June 2022.
They provide some of the most specific evidence to date linking the government of Ukraine to the eventual attack in the Baltic Sea, which U.S. and Western officials have called a brazen and dangerous act of sabotage on Europe’s energy infrastructure.
The European intelligence reporting was shared on the chat platform Discord, allegedly by Air National Guard member Jack Teixeira. The Washington Post obtained a copy from one of Teixeira’s online friends.
The intelligence report was based on information obtained from an individual in Ukraine. The source’s information could not immediately be corroborated, but the CIA shared the report with Germany and other European countries last June, according to multiple officials familiar with the matter, who spoke on the condition of anonymity to discuss sensitive intelligence operations and diplomatic discussions.
The highly specific details, which include numbers of operatives and methods of attack, show that for nearly a year Western allies had a basis to suspect Kyiv in the sabotage. That assessment has only strengthened in recent months as German law enforcement investigators uncovered evidence about the bombing that bears striking similarities to what the European service said Ukraine was planning.
Officials in multiple countries confirmed that the intelligence summary posted on Discord accurately stated what the European service told the CIA. The Post agreed to withhold the name of the European country as well as some aspects of the suspected plan at the request of government officials, who said exposing the information would threaten sources and operations...
https://www.washingtonpost.com/national-security/2023/06/06/nord-stream-pipeline-explosion-ukraine-russia/
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US intelligence continues to leak their suspicions about Ukrainian involvement with the pipeline attack:
U.S. had intelligence of detailed Ukrainian plan to attack Nord Stream pipeline
https://www.washingtonpost.com/national-security/2023/06/06/nord-stream-pipeline-explosion-ukraine-russia/
The evidence is growing and conclusive. When will the Biden administration be held accountable for the lies they told about this incident? Never. They told the world that the Russians were behind this attack knowing that was false. A ludicrous story that never made sense. It was obvious to any child that explanation made no sense, but the leftist media and propagandists bought it hook, line, and sinker. How many times in recent years have such lies been perpetuated as the absolute truth and any dissent mocked? Russian collusion, Dirty Hunter's laptop, and the origins of COVID. Any reasonable person not radicalized by anti-Trump hatred would have to question what else they have told is a lie now that we know with absolute certain that the Biden administration will knowingly lie for political purposes.