JFK Assassination Forum
JFK Assassination Discussion & Debate => JFK Assassination Discussion & Debate => Topic started by: Alan Ford on January 21, 2023, 02:02:16 PM
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Friends, consider two facts:
1. The floor from which shots were fired just happened to be the one floor where renovation work was being done.
2. The floor from which shots were fired just happened to be the one in-use floor from which not a single member of the Depository building workforce chose to watch the P. Parade from.
Probative of anything in particular? Hardly! But interesting? Yes!
Well!
What if the above facts are in fact intimately related? What if these three circumstances are functionally intertwined?
----------------Renovation work on 6
----------------No spectators on 6
----------------Shots fired from 6
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Now!
On 5 December 1963, Mrs. Toney (Ruby) Henderson told FBI that, at some point between the departure of the ambulance (carrying the epileptic man) and the arrival of the motorcade, she noticed two men on an upper floor of the Depository----------and could not recall seeing "anyone on a floor higher up than the one they were on".
One of these men (in a white shirt) appeared dark-complected; the other (in a dark shirt) was taller than him, but she not could speak to this man's ethnicity.
Here was the distinct impression as to activity which Mrs. Henderson got from these two men:
"She said these men were standing back from the window and she got the impression they were working and yet looking out the window in anticipation of the motorcade passing that building."
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But! How could there have been any men working on an upper floor just a few minutes before the motorcade? Had not everyone broken for lunch?
Indeed so! But that would hold only for all those manual workers in the building who were actually employees of the building.
'Leaving whom, exactly?' I hear you ask................
Well, what if there was a carpentry team--------outside contractor---------in charge of the laying of plywood on the sixth floor? And what if they did NOT take a lunch break at the normal time? What if they kept working through even after all the internal manual workers went downstairs for their break? Why? In order to disincentivize any of the internal crew from choosing the sixth floor as the place to come back to once they'd got their lunch. It would be a noisy place, not conducive to a relaxed lunch break.
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'But,' I hear you cry, 'there is no evidence of any such outside team having been brought in for the plywood-laying project!'
Wrong.
Mr. Harold Norman* was NOT (like Messrs. Arce, Williams, Lovelady et al) a member of the floor-laying crew, so he may not have been told to shut up forever about the true number and mix of people who had been putting that new floor down.
(*Credit to Mr. G. Parker for coming upon the below information..............)
In 1991, he told the Sixth Floor Museum this:
------------"we [= Messrs. Norman, Williams & Jarman] had plans of waiting until the mororcade arrived and then going up to the 5th floor to watch"
------------An outside carpentry team had been brought in for the floor-laying project (he even remembered one of its men, a "kind of a rugged-looking guy", white, about 6'2"-6'3"/210-20 pounds, and chatty about boxing)
In 1993, Mr. Norman fleshed out his recollections on this to Mr. Glen Sample. What he has to say is truly startling. Read and you will hear the sound of a very big penny dropping.............................
“Now, you ate your lunch on the fifth floor, right?” I asked.
“Yeah, we got up there a little before twelve.”
“Why the fifth floor? Why not the sixth floor, or the seventh floor?”
“Well, at first, we were going to do it on the sixth floor, but they were working, they were putting down some flooring, some 3/8” plywood, so there was quite a bit of noise, and they were painting up there too."
[...]
“Now you were telling about the construction that was going on up on the sixth floor. Why were they laying down plywood?”
“They were putting it over the hardwood flooring. You see, some of the hardwood was rotting in places; it was in really bad shape.”
“I see. So it was noisy up there you said. What was it that was so noisy? Were there any kind of saws, or machinery, or anything like that?”
“Yeah, they had one of those saws, you know, one of those table saws, but there wasn’t any noise going on during the motorcade, everything was quiet.”
[...]
“Did you help lay down the new flooring?”
“No, we went up there sometimes to move stuff around for the floor construction guys. They didn’t work for the Book Depository, but if our work got slow, we would give them a hand.”
“So there was an outside contractor doing the work on the floors, right?”
“Right. There was a crew of about five or six, maybe up to eight men.”
“Were they only doing work on the sixth floor?”
“At that particular time, I think they were. They were planning on doing something up on the seventh floor after they were finished with the sixth floor.”
**
Is the floor-laying crew the great secret of how the sixth floor was requisitioned for the assassination?
If so, then we can confidently identify not just the men seen by Mrs. Henderson, but also those seen by Mr. Arnold Rowland, and those seen by Mrs. Carolyn Walthers, as members of that floor-laying (and, of course, altogether more nefariously-minded) crew that had been brought in from outside. They were not 'strangers' in the building, and so their presence would have raised no eyebrows amongst regular employees. But any of the Depository manual workers who had unsuspectingly helped them lay the floor that day will have been told afterwards to erase their presence from the collective memory of who had been up on that sixth floor that day.
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What are you suggesting now? That the entire TSBD work force was in on the plot? How about this? Oswald selected a location in the building that provided him with the best combination of shooting location and seclusion. And that was the window on the 6th floor. It would not have taken Nostradamus to predict that most folks would not be on an upper floor at lunch time on the day in which the presidential motorcade was passing the building. Oswald couldn't control the movements of everyone in the building, but his plan to assassinate the president involved accepting risk. How do you know that Oswald didn't scout out more than one location? It's entirely possible that if a group of employees had decided to watch the motorcade on the 6th floor that he might have fired the shots from the 7th floor etc.
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Except for that pesky little detail that Bonnie Ray Williams was having his lunch on the sixth floor as late as 12:28.
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What are you suggesting now? That the entire TSBD work force was in on the plot?
~Grin~
No, Mr. Smith, but you'd know that if you'd properly read what I actually wrote
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Except for that pesky little detail that Bonnie Ray Williams was having his lunch on the sixth floor as late as 12:28.
Only pesky if one believes he's telling the truth about that. I don't. (Nor do I believe he would have been mistaken by Mr. Arnold Rowland for a plaid-shirt-wearing, bald, 'elderly Negro'.)
Mr. Tom Alyea insisted the chicken remains were found on the FIFTH floor and brought up to six by cops--------who then made a big noise about them to the press at first. After that, they needed 'splainin' away: enter Mr. Williams.
Mr. Norman, in his 1991 Sixth Floor interview, states that all three men (he, Mr. Williams, Mr Jarman) ate up on the fifth floor, and that Mr. Williams was the one with the chicken sandwich.
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~Grin~
No, Mr. Smith, but you'd know that if you'd properly read what I actually wrote
Maybe because your nonsense is rambling and incoherent.
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Only pesky if one believes he's telling the truth about that. I don't. (Nor do I believe he would have been mistaken by Mr. Arnold Rowland for a plaid-shirt-wearing, bald, 'elderly Negro'.)
Mr. Tom Alyea insisted the chicken remains were found on the FIFTH floor and brought up to six by cops--------who then made a big noise about them to the press at first. After that, they needed 'splainin' away: enter Mr. Williams.
Mr. Norman, in his 1991 Sixth Floor interview, states that all three men (he, Mr. Williams, Mr Jarman) ate up on the fifth floor, and that Mr. Williams was the one with the chicken sandwich.
So why would BRW lie about this? Wouldn't it have been better for the WC if BRW had not had his lunch on the 6th floor since he claimed not to have seen anything. But here you have him lying to place him on the 6th floor. HA HA HA.
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Is the floor-laying crew the great secret of how the sixth floor was requisitioned for the assassination?
If so, then we find ourselves with a bunch of men in the Depository 11/22/63 who were legitimately working there, were not 'strangers' to the building who did not 'belong' there, yet were not on any list of Depository employees.
The implications of such a scenario are profound.
To take just two examples....................
1. "The [building] manager said I know that man he works here": from Officer Baker's 11/22 affidavit account. If this incident by the rear stairway several floors up really happened, then Mr. Truly could have truthfully said these words about EITHER an employee of the Depository OR one of the construction guys brought in to lay the new plywood floor.
2. From Officer Baker's WC testimony:
Mr. BAKER - On the first floor there were two men. As we came through the main doorway to the elevators, I remember as we tried to get on the elevators I remember two men, one was sitting on this side and another one between 20 or 30 feet away from us looking at us.
Mr. DULLES - Were they white men?
Mr. BAKER - Yes, sir.
Mr. Harold Norman's information releases us from the binary option of EITHER these two white men were Depository employees OR they were 'strangers'.
They need have been neither. For now a third option presents itself: they were two of the construction guys belonging to the outside contractor (in fact, the assassination team)
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Only pesky if one believes he's telling the truth about that. I don't. (Nor do I believe he would have been mistaken by Mr. Arnold Rowland for a plaid-shirt-wearing, bald, 'elderly Negro'.)
Mr. Tom Alyea insisted the chicken remains were found on the FIFTH floor and brought up to six by cops--------who then made a big noise about them to the press at first. After that, they needed 'splainin' away: enter Mr. Williams.
Mr. Norman, in his 1991 Sixth Floor interview, states that all three men (he, Mr. Williams, Mr Jarman) ate up on the fifth floor, and that Mr. Williams was the one with the chicken sandwich.
In his 11/22 affidavit, Mr. Williams says he went to the fifth floor with Messrs. Norman & Jarman, and the motorcade arrived just after they got there.
The following day, he tells the FBI a very different story:
(https://i.postimg.cc/wMwKTTgX/Bonnie-Ray-Williams-fbi-23-nov.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)
So: quick, 3-minute wolfing down of his LUNCH on six, then he JOINS Hank & Junior on five. Chicken remains on six (which in the meantime have become an embarrassment for the 'investigating' authorities) duly accounted for! Thumb1:
Except! The timeline is ridiculous. Messrs. Norman & Jarman didn't get up to five until nearly 25 minutes after that. So Mr. Williams will have to keep elongating the time he spent up on six before joining his co-workers on five.
The reality is, he in all likelihood never went up to six after breaking for lunch, for the presence of the carpentry crew on six made him & Messrs. Norman & Jarman decide in advance to choose five to watch the P. Parade from. All his talk, in his WC testimony, of a prior agreement amongst the 6th floor crew to meet back up on six is just so much palaver, designed to offer spurious motivation for his fictitious solo sojourn on six.
And: in all likelihood it was Messrs. Norman & Jarman who joined Mr. Williams on five, rather than the other way around. (They had split up after breaking for lunch, with Mr. Williams heading out alone to the catering truck.)
Why, even in his WC testimony, Mr. Norman was not willing to let words be put in his mouth about this question:
Mr. BALL. And what did you and Junior do after you got off the elevator?
Mr. NORMAN. We walked around to the windows facing Elm Street and I can't recall if any were open or not but I remember we opened some, two or three windows ourselves.
Mr. BALL. Did somebody join you there?
Mr. NORMAN. Bonnie Ray, I can't remember if he was there when we got there or he came later. I know he was with us a period of time later.
Mr. BALL. And then did he come down before the President's motorcade came by?
Mr. NORMAN. Yes; he was with us before the motorcade came by.
**
I believe our picture of what the sixth floor looked like between noon and the motorcade needs a radical reconfiguration. None of the Depository employees (with the possible exception of Mr. Jack Dougherty, at a late point) were up there at all during that time, but the floor still had several men on it. Only they were not 'strangers' per se.....................
When the assassination happened, and the sixth floor was identified as the source of shots, Messrs. Williams, Jarman, Arce, Lovelady, Givens, and Dougherty understood two horrific facts: the men who had been working with them on the floor-laying project had carried out the atrocity; and these men knew each of their names and their faces.
Silence is golden.
Thankfully, Mr. Norman, being out of the floor-laying loop, was-----at least later-----less constrained in what he felt able to say.
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Is there a full moon?
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If so, then we find ourselves with a bunch of men in the Depository 11/22/63 who were legitimately working there, were not 'strangers' to the building who did not 'belong' there, yet were not on any list of Depository employees.
The implications of such a scenario are profound.
To take just two examples....................
1. "The [building] manager said I know that man he works here": from Officer Baker's 11/22 affidavit account. If this incident by the rear stairway several floors up really happened, then Mr. Truly could have truthfully said these words about EITHER an employee of the Depository OR one of the construction guys brought in to lay the new plywood floor.
2. From Officer Baker's WC testimony:
Mr. BAKER - On the first floor there were two men. As we came through the main doorway to the elevators, I remember as we tried to get on the elevators I remember two men, one was sitting on this side and another one between 20 or 30 feet away from us looking at us.
Mr. DULLES - Were they white men?
Mr. BAKER - Yes, sir.
Mr. Harold Norman's information releases us from the binary option of EITHER these two white men were Depository employees OR they were 'strangers'.
They need have been neither. For now a third option presents itself: they were two of the construction guys belonging to the outside contractor (in fact, the assassination team)
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Another example of the explanatory work offered by Mr. Norman's information about the outside carpenters brought in to work on the floor-laying project:
If a stranger or strangers had come up on to the sixth floor to carry out the hit, then they would have been careful not to draw attention to their presence by appearing at south-facing windows. Any Depository person down on the street might spot them and wonder about them.
But we find no such shyness from the men on the sixth floor post-noon.
Mr. Arnold Rowland's 'elderly Negro', for example, casually hangs out at the SE window. From a stranger who has clandestinely entered and is laying low for the hit, this is pure madness.
It all makes sense, however, if he is part of the outside floor-laying crew. He is perfectly entitled to be up there. His presence is not in the least bit anomalous. If he is spotted by one of the Depository manual workers down below, why they can exchange a friendly wave.
He is also (one might add) giving a public sign that the crew are still up on the sixth floor, and floor-laying work is continuing on. Not a bad way of keeping low the likelihood that any Depository man will decide to slip up to six after all, on the assumption that the outside crew have gone on their break......................
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What we have, then, is an outside carpentry crew installed on the sixth floor at 12pm that serves two logistical purposes:
A. To continue working on the noisy flooring job right up to, or close to, the motorcade's arrival, thus rendering the sixth floor inhospitable to Depository men seeking a quiet vantage point for the motorcade.
B. To provide the man or men who will fire the shots.
Let us note that, in terms of manpower, B. generates a subset of A: you need X number of men to carry out A., but only Y number of men to carry out B.
Why is this important? Because it means that all but one or two of the team can have already left the sixth floor by the time shots are fired. The floor has been secured, their purpose is served. No need for a group stampede downstairs just after the shooting. Every member of the team does not need to go downstairs at the same time. The non-shooters can slip away shortly before the action is to start. And the beauty of it is that, even in the unlikely event (unlikely given the proximity to the motorcade's arrival) that a Depository employee crosses their path on the way down and out, that employee will not bat an eyelid at anyone whose face has been seen around the building for days and weeks already.
This neutralizes the problem of how a TEAM of men could have gotten downstairs unseen and unheard just after the shooting. There was no TEAM by that stage. Just one or two men.
And, if Officer Baker's affidavit is telling us the truth, the man he caught walking away from the rear stairway several floors up was at least one of those who stayed up on six until the bitter end.
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Sure, sure. Lee was a great planner. Had it all planned out. Put together the gun after sneaking it in. But not having a chance to test fire it after putting it back together. Building an elaborate sniper's nest, goes through all of the effort of hiding the gun, yet leaves the three shells in the nest. And the best planning of all is when Kennedy is coming toward the building on Houston, there's a golden opportunity to have a clear shot. Yet, he waits, and waits some more with a tree obscuring his view on Elm. Nerves maybe? Nope. He's a great planner, right? No matter. The great planner pulls it off with one shot hitting way down the street. Oops! Two out of the three ain't too bad.
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Here's Mr. Jack Dougherty (only just) dodging an interrogatory bullet..........................
Mr. BALL - Did you see him again that morning?
Mr. DOUGHERTY - Yes; just one more time.
Mr. BALL - Where was that?
Mr. DOUGHERTY - That was on the sixth floor.
Mr. BALL - On the sixth floor?
Mr. DOUGHERTY - Yes.
Mr. BALL - About what time of day?
Mr. DOUGHERTY - It was about 11 o'clock-that was the last time I saw him.
Mr. BALL - What was he doing up there?
Mr. DOUGHERTY - Well, as far as I could tell, he was getting some stock---as far as I could tell.
Mr. BALL - What were you doing there?
Mr. DOUGHERTY - I was getting some stock also.
Mr. BALL - And were there some other workmen up there at the time?
Mr. DOUGHERTY - Not that I know of.
Mr. BALL - Well, do you remember Shelley, Dan Arce, Bonnie Williams, Bill Lovelady, and Charlie Givens who were working up there that morning---laying floor on the sixth floor?
Mr. DOUGHERTY - Oh, yes; they were laying floor---yes, sir.
Mr. BALL - And were they there at the time you were there?
Mr. DOUGHERTY - Oh, yes, sir; they were there---yes, sir.
He first misunderstands what Mr. Ball means by "other workmen", and disclaims all knowledge of such up on the sixth floor that morning. Then, when Mr. Ball clarifies that he is speaking of Depository employees, he is relieved to find that the question was innocuous: ah, you mean THOSE floor-laying guys...
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Here's Mr. Jack Dougherty (only just) dodging an interrogatory bullet..........................
Mr. BALL - Did you see him again that morning?
Mr. DOUGHERTY - Yes; just one more time.
Mr. BALL - Where was that?
Mr. DOUGHERTY - That was on the sixth floor.
Mr. BALL - On the sixth floor?
Mr. DOUGHERTY - Yes.
Mr. BALL - About what time of day?
Mr. DOUGHERTY - It was about 11 o'clock-that was the last time I saw him.
Mr. BALL - What was he doing up there?
Mr. DOUGHERTY - Well, as far as I could tell, he was getting some stock---as far as I could tell.
Mr. BALL - What were you doing there?
Mr. DOUGHERTY - I was getting some stock also.
Mr. BALL - And were there some other workmen up there at the time?
Mr. DOUGHERTY - Not that I know of.
Mr. BALL - Well, do you remember Shelley, Dan Arce, Bonnie Williams, Bill Lovelady, and Charlie Givens who were working up there that morning---laying floor on the sixth floor?
Mr. DOUGHERTY - Oh, yes; they were laying floor---yes, sir.
Mr. BALL - And were they there at the time you were there?
Mr. DOUGHERTY - Oh, yes, sir; they were there---yes, sir.
He first misunderstands what Mr. Ball means by "other workmen", and disclaims all knowledge of such up on the sixth floor that morning. Then, when Mr. Ball clarifies that he is speaking of Depository employees, he is relieved to find that the question was innocuous: ah, you mean THOSE floor-laying guys...
Now----------compare!
1. "I was working on the sixth floor today. There was six of us working on the floor." (Mr. Jack Dougherty, 11/22/63 affidavit)
2.
Mr. BALL - And it also says, this report from Mr. Johnson, states that you told him that just prior to 12 noon you and five other men were working on the sixth floor. Were you?
Mr. DOUGHERTY - Yes; we were working on the sixth floor.
Mr. BALL - What were you doing?
Mr. DOUGHERTY - Well, I was getting some stock off of the sixth floor.
Mr. BALL - You weren't helping the men lay floor?
Mr. DOUGHERTY - No, sir.
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Sure, sure. Lee was a great planner. Had it all planned out. Put together the gun after sneaking it in. But not having a chance to test fire it after putting it back together. Building an elaborate sniper's nest, goes through all of the effort of hiding the gun, yet leaves the three shells in the nest. And the best planning of all is when Kennedy is coming toward the building on Houston, there's a golden opportunity to have a clear shot. Yet, he waits, and waits some more with a tree obscuring his view on Elm. Nerves maybe? Nope. He's a great planner, right? No matter. The great planner pulls it off with one shot hitting way down the street. Oops! Two out of the three ain't too bad.
LOL. Why would this take any great planning? He wrapped the gun in some paper. Carried it to the TSBD and hid it. The SN is already constructed and just waiting for him. He didn't "build" it. At most he moved a couple of smaller boxes. Oswald knows that he will quickly become a suspect in the crime once the FBI finds out that he works in the building and that he is gone. The least of his problems are the shells. There is no possible plan to get away with this crime. Oswald doesn't expect to come to work on Monday. Arrest or death is part of his equation in deciding to commit the crime. He is boogieing in the short timeframe before he becomes the suspect. Playing out his hand. Tippit puts an end to that with heroic police work.
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LOL. Why would this take any great planning? He wrapped the gun in some paper. Carried it to the TSBD and hid it. The SN is already constructed and just waiting for him. He didn't "build" it. At most he moved a couple of smaller boxes. Oswald knows that he will quickly become a suspect in the crime once the FBI finds out that he works in the building and that he is gone. The least of his problems are the shells. There is no possible plan to get away with this crime. Oswald doesn't expect to come to work on Monday. Arrest or death is part of his equation in deciding to commit the crime. He is boogieing in the short timeframe before he becomes the suspect. Playing out his hand. Tippit puts an end to that with heroic police work.
Oswald taking his rifle and admittedly getting tragically lucky, e.g., Norman, Jarman, Williams decided to watch from the 5th and not the 6th, takes great planning but the conspiracy argument, the alternative explanation, is considered what exactly? Easy to pull off? The conspiracy advocates never seem to realize the difficulty their theories are to have been carried out. To plan this in advance in secret, execute it in broad daylight with hundreds of people watching, then cover it up with the help of several generations of people - for decades - is simply impossible. Again: it is not possible. Oswald pulled off a two car funeral compared to what the conspiracy explanation entails. Even more easy, Oswald just had to have one car not two.
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Sure, sure. Lee was a great planner. Had it all planned out. Put together the gun after sneaking it in. But not having a chance to test fire it after putting it back together. Building an elaborate sniper's nest, goes through all of the effort of hiding the gun, yet leaves the three shells in the nest. And the best planning of all is when Kennedy is coming toward the building on Houston, there's a golden opportunity to have a clear shot. Yet, he waits, and waits some more with a tree obscuring his view on Elm. Nerves maybe? Nope. He's a great planner, right? No matter. The great planner pulls it off with one shot hitting way down the street. Oops! Two out of the three ain't too bad.
Sure, sure. Lee was a great planner. Had it all planned out.
In my opinion, LHO’s decisions appear to be quite good. It appears that he only had a couple of days to figure out the details. The motorcade route wasn’t even decided upon until a few days before it actually happened.
Put together the gun after sneaking it in. But not having a chance to test fire it after putting it back together.
If the rifle barrel had to be reassembled to the wooden stock, test firing it was not necessary. This is because the scope didn’t need to be removed from or remounted to the barrel in order for the length to fit the paper bag.
Building an elaborate sniper's nest, goes through all of the effort of hiding the gun, yet leaves the three shells in the nest.
Truly’s testimony appears to confirm that most of the boxes surrounding the sniper’s nest were already moved there, due to the flooring work, prior to 11/22/63. So, relatively few of them needed to be repositioned by LHO. So it doesn’t appear that it would have been a major undertaking by LHO. Neither was dropping the rifle between stacks of boxes and sliding a couple of boxes over the opening. Picking up the empty hulls doesn’t appear to me to be something he would want to spend time doing. He would have to spend some time to find them first. All of the hulls might not have been easily found if some of them had ended up in between some boxes. And he would have to expose himself for that extra time to whoever might be looking his way. This might include armed law enforcement officers, secret service agents, etc.
And the best planning of all is when Kennedy is coming toward the building on Houston, there's a golden opportunity to have a clear shot. Yet, he waits, and waits some more with a tree obscuring his view on Elm. Nerves maybe? Nope. He's a great planner, right? No matter. The great planner pulls it off with one shot hitting way down the street. Oops! Two out of the three ain't too bad.
I know you are being sarcastic, but I think that the decision to wait to ambush from behind the limo and the secret service agents was probably the best decision he made. If he had fired his rifle at JFK when the limo was approaching on Houston Street, the likelihood of him being seen by the secret service and receiving return fire from them was much greater. And his chances of escaping the TSBD would have been zero. Also, the downhill slope of Elm Street made for an easier shot because the target was moving in a direction that was close to being inline with the rifle barrel.
I think that an early first shot could have been errant (and perhaps inadvertent) due to interference by either the boxes in the way of the rifle barrel or the vertical conduit closest to the sniper’s window being in the way of his left elbow. (Or maybe he wanted to give them a warning shot…. ;) ) It appears to me that the last two shots hit JFK, so, sadly, the plan appears to have worked out well. And after all, the results are what count in the end. :-[
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I know you are being sarcastic, but I think that the decision to wait to ambush from behind the limo and the secret service agents was probably the best decision he made. If he had fired his rifle at JFK when the limo was approaching on Houston Street, the likelihood of him being seen by the secret service and receiving return fire from them was much greater. And his chances of escaping the TSBD would have been zero. Also, the downhill slope of Elm Street made for an easier shot because the target was moving in a direction that was close to being inline with the rifle barrel.
I think that an early first shot could have been errant (and perhaps inadvertent) due to interference by either the boxes in the way of the rifle barrel or the vertical conduit closest to the sniper’s window being in the way of his left elbow. (Or maybe he wanted to give them a warning shot…. ;) ) It appears to me that the last two shots hit JFK, so, sadly, the plan appears to have worked out well. And after all, the results are what count in the end. :-[
If Oswald had fired the shots as the motorcade came toward him on Houston, CTers would be here arguing that he should have waited until it passed. If he had picked up the bullet casings, CTers would be here arguing that he wouldn't have paused in front of the window to do so, and he had to leave the rifle anyway. So why bother? I think Oswald made an assessment of the location that provided the best combination of shooting location and seclusion. He had plenty of time to do that in the days leading up to the assassination and he was already familiar with the building and the employee patterns at lunchtime. The 6th floor window fit that need perfectly. Most of the boxes were there. Oswald knew that at lunchtime with the motorcade passing that day that it was unlikely that anyone would be there. But he still had the rifle if he had encountered anyone on that floor after the assassination. It's fortunate for BRW and his friends that they were not on the floor. The biggest decision Oswald had to make was whether he was willing to die or spend the rest of his life in jail to commit this crime as there was no realistic possibility of escape. By leaving most of his money and wedding ring at home that morning, we know he accepted that outcome.
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If Oswald had fired the shots as the motorcade came toward him on Houston, CTers would be here arguing that he should have waited until it passed. If he had picked up the bullet casings, CTers would be here arguing that he wouldn't have paused in front of the window to do so, and he had to leave the rifle anyway. So why bother? I think Oswald made an assessment of the location that provided the best combination of shooting location and seclusion. He had plenty of time to do that in the days leading up to the assassination and he was already familiar with the building and the employee patterns at lunchtime. The 6th floor window fit that need perfectly. Most of the boxes were there. Oswald knew that at lunchtime with the motorcade passing that day that it was unlikely that anyone would be there. But he still had the rifle if he had encountered anyone on that floor after the assassination. It's fortunate for BRW and his friends that they were not on the floor. The biggest decision Oswald had to make was whether he was willing to die or spend the rest of his life in jail to commit this crime as there was no realistic possibility of escape. By leaving most of his money and wedding ring at home that morning, we know he accepted that outcome.
The biggest decision Oswald had to make was whether he was willing to die or spend the rest of his life in jail to commit this crime as there was no realistic possibility of escape.
Yes, it does appear that he was willing to die. It also appears to me that he intentionally made decisions that would maximize his chances of escaping the TSBD. After he did escape, his first action was to get his revolver. And it appears to me that, once he was stopped by Tippit, he wanted to “go down fighting”. Jack Ruby was wrong to take justice into his own hands. In one respect LHO got what he deserved (an ambush). However, I think that the electric chair, and LHO’s agony of having to wait for the inevitable switch to be activated, would have been alright with me…
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The biggest decision Oswald had to make was whether he was willing to die or spend the rest of his life in jail to commit this crime as there was no realistic possibility of escape.
Yes, it does appear that he was willing to die. It also appears to me that he intentionally made decisions that would maximize his chances of escaping the TSBD. After he did escape, his first action was to get his revolver. And it appears to me that, once he was stopped by Tippit, he wanted to “go down fighting”. Jack Ruby was wrong to take justice into his own hands. In one respect LHO got what he deserved (an ambush). However, I think that the electric chair, and LHO’s agony of having to wait for the inevitable switch to be activated, would have been alright with me…
Oswald might have plead guilty to avoid the chair. His confession would have been helpful to the authorities, and Oswald could have filled in some of the historical details like the motive. He probably would have eventually gone the James Earl Ray route, however, and forever teased a conspiracy to stay relevant and play the CTers like rubes. I don't think anyone has lost any sleep over Ruby's actions, though.
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Oswald might have plead guilty to avoid the chair. His confession would have been helpful to the authorities, and Oswald could have filled in some of the historical details like the motive. He probably would have eventually gone the James Earl Ray route, however, and forever teased a conspiracy to stay relevant and play the CTers like rubes. I don't think anyone has lost any sleep over Ruby's actions, though.
The plea bargaining concept is usually only available to defendants in order to avoid the costs of a trial, or when the case isn’t a slam dunk. And I don’t believe that either one of those would have been in play for LHO.
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LOL. Why would this take any great planning? He wrapped the gun in some paper. Carried it to the TSBD and hid it. The SN is already constructed and just waiting for him. He didn't "build" it. At most he moved a couple of smaller boxes. Oswald knows that he will quickly become a suspect in the crime once the FBI finds out that he works in the building and that he is gone. The least of his problems are the shells. There is no possible plan to get away with this crime. Oswald doesn't expect to come to work on Monday. Arrest or death is part of his equation in deciding to commit the crime. He is boogieing in the short timeframe before he becomes the suspect. Playing out his hand. Tippit puts an end to that with heroic police work.
Cool story, bro. Did you see all that in the crystal ball in your mom’s basement?
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The plea bargaining concept is usually only available to defendants in order to avoid the costs of a trial, or when the case isn’t a slam dunk. And I don’t believe that either one of those would have been in play for LHO.
In an ordinary situation where someone had committed a double murder in Dallas including a police officer in 1963, they would have fried faster than one of Colonel Sander's chickens. But this was no ordinary situation. I think the authorities would want answers from Oswald and a full confession due to the historical context and implications. And avoiding the death penalty could have been the deal. The James Earl Ray situation is as close as we can get for an insight on how it might have played out.
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In an ordinary situation where someone had committed a double murder in Dallas including a police officer in 1963, they would have fried faster than one of Colonel Sander's chickens. But this was no ordinary situation. I think the authorities would want answers from Oswald and a full confession due to the historical context and implications. And avoiding the death penalty could have been the deal. The James Earl Ray situation is as close as we can get for an insight on how it might have played out.
We will just have to disagree on this little bit of speculation. I really cannot imagine LHO being offered a plea bargain arraignment. I was only 10-years old back then but, as I remember, the death penalty was viewed as a deterrent to those who might be considering committing a serious crime. In other words I believe that LHO would have been made an example of what happens to those who attempt to assassinate the president. Swift trial and the electric chair (after the appeals process)…
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Best article I've read about the conflicting accounts of the School Book Depository workers:
Rewriting History: Bugliosi Parses the Testimony
Among the false claims made by Bugliosi in his effort to convince us that Oswald shot Kennedy is that he was the only employee to “flee” the Texas School Book Depository following the shooting. The truth is that several employees left the building (affidavits in CE 1381), including the aforementioned Charles Givens. In fact, the Dallas police put out an APB to have Givens picked up for questioning about the shooting.
Givens was the Warren Commission’s star witness. He alone, among all of the witnesses, is supposed to have seen Oswald on the sixth floor of the Book Depository during the lunch hour. But the truth is, contrary to Bugliosi’s account, Givens never testified to the Warren Commission. The Warren Commission flew ninety-four Dallas witnesses to Washington D.C. to testify before them. Yet, Givens, the only witness who could positively identify Oswald and place him at the scene of the crime at or near the time of the shooting, was not among them. Givens was deposed in private in Dallas by a single Warren Commission lawyer.
The problem with Givens’ deposition was spelled out in an article published in the Texas Observer by researcher Sylvia Meagher (Meagher in Texas Observer, 13 August 1971. The issue also contains a rebuttal of sorts by David Belin). Givens did indeed state in April 1964 that he had seen Oswald on the sixth floor at lunchtime on the day of the assassination. Hence, Givens gave two accounts of Oswald’s whereabouts, one in November that tended to corroborate Oswald’s alibi, and a second in April that tended to incriminate him. Yet his statement in November contained no mention of Oswald on the sixth floor, while the statement in April contains a denial that he had seen Oswald elsewhere. It is in that light that the special handling of Givens by the Warren Commission staff is seen as manipulative; that and the fact that the Warren Report contains no mention of Givens’ statement to the FBI...
Aside from the fact that Givens never gave any testimony to the Warren Commission is the fact that Givens stated in his deposition that the encounter with Oswald on the fifth floor took place around 11:30 (CD 5 p. 329), not 11:50. Thus, there is no time contradiction among the accounts, only to Bugliosi’s version of events. Bugliosi exploits the differing time estimates to garble the accounts when it is the sequence of events that is important. In Givens’ accounts, he saw Oswald three separate times over a span of about 25 minutes.
Junior Jarman, Oswald’s direct supervisor, told the FBI that he saw Oswald leave the first floor, boarding one of the freight elevators with his order pad in hand, presumably to fill an order for books, at approximately 11:30 (CD 5, p. 334). Charles Givens was part of a four (not six) man work crew that was laying plywood flooring on the sixth floor that morning. The crew broke for lunch early because the President’s motorcade was expected to pass the building during the noon hour. Although the four varied widely in their guesstimates as to the actual time that they broke for lunch, all four men recounted seeing Oswald on the fifth floor on their way down in the freight elevators, some recalling that Oswald had shouted to them to send one of the elevators back up. This was the last undisputed sighting of Oswald prior to the assassination. The estimated time of this event differed among the work crew from close to 11:30 to close to 12:00, but all agreed that it was before noon. Junior Jarman recalled that the four man crew arrived on the first floor for lunch at 11:45 (police report reprinted in Bonner, p. 286). Bugliosi estimates 11:50.
https://www.maryferrell.org/pages/Essay_-_Rewriting_History_-_Bugliosi_Parses_the_Testimony.html
The book, "Accessories After The Fact" also goes into detail about this and broader conflicts in the eye witness testimonies.
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Best article I've read about the conflicting accounts of the School Book Depository workers:
Rewriting History: Bugliosi Parses the Testimony
The book, "Accessories After The Fact" also goes into detail about this and broader conflicts in the eye witness testimonies.
There are normally conflicts in various witness accounts. Showing these conflicts and suggesting they represent something sinister is apparently what CTs do. But all it is is meaningless conjecture. I believe that Givens was taken to the DPD headquarters and his affidavit taken before he would have known that LHO was a suspect or that the shots came from the sixth floor. So, why would no mention of his seeing LHO on the sixth floor at about 11:55 am in his affidavit of 11/22/63 be considered “suspect”?
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What's sinister is the way Bugliosi misrepresents the details in order to fit his preferred narrative.
But Givens was interviewed several times by the FBI and the Secret Service between November and April. It wasn't until April that the story about going back for his cigarettes and seeing Oswald first popped up. And that was after Revill told Gemberling that Givens had been previously handled by the Special Services Bureau on a marijuana charge and he believes that Givens would change his story for money.
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Truly’s testimony appears to confirm that most of the boxes surrounding the sniper’s nest were already moved there, due to the flooring work, prior to 11/22/63. So, relatively few of them needed to be repositioned by LHO.
Correct.
Also, the smaller Rolling Readers boxes (much smaller and lighter than the larger, heavier boxes containing books) were moved to the sniper's nest specifically for the purpose of being used as a gun rest. These smaller boxes would not have been placed in the sniper's nest area by the floor-laying crew. The smaller Rolling Readers boxes weren't kept over on the west end of the floor where the floor was currently being laid; they were kept a few rows over from the sniper's nest window (more towards the middle of the floor as opposed to being on either end of the floor).
These Rolling Readers boxes had recently been handled by Lee Oswald.
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If Oswald had fired the shots as the motorcade came toward him on Houston, CTers would be here arguing that he should have waited until it passed. If he had picked up the bullet casings, CTers would be here arguing that he wouldn't have paused in front of the window to do so, and he had to leave the rifle anyway.
I agree completely.
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Also, the smaller Rolling Readers boxes (much smaller and lighter than the larger, heavier boxes containing books) were moved to the sniper's nest specifically for the purpose of being used as a gun rest.
Pure speculation.
These Rolling Readers boxes had recently been handled by Lee Oswald.
And by “recently”, Bill means within 3 days, according to Latona.
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Best article I've read about the conflicting accounts of the School Book Depository workers:
Rewriting History: Bugliosi Parses the Testimony
The book, "Accessories After The Fact" also goes into detail about this and broader conflicts in the eye witness testimonies.
What is the significance of quoting a statement that "Givens never testified to the Warren Commission"? Givens was interviewed at length by Belin in his capacity as an assistant counsel for the WC. Belin asked him those questions in Dallas rather than flying him to DC. Big deal. Maybe that was Givens' preference. Regardless, it makes no difference since Givens did testify and his testimony is part of the record taken into consideration by the WC.
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What's sinister is the way Bugliosi misrepresents the details in order to fit his preferred narrative.
But Givens was interviewed several times by the FBI and the Secret Service between November and April. It wasn't until April that the story about going back for his cigarettes and seeing Oswald first popped up. And that was after Revill told Gemberling that Givens had been previously handled by the Special Services Bureau on a marijuana charge and he believes that Givens would change his story for money.
Reading Don Thomas’ rant against Bugliosi it appears to me that much of his “argument” hinges upon the last paragraph in the FBI report of their interview of Givens dated 11/23/63:
GIVENS said all employees enter the back door of the building when Jack Dougherty, the foreman opens the door at about 7 A.M. On the morning of November 22, 1963, GIVENS observed LEE reading a newspaper in the domino room where the employees eat lunch about 11:50 A.M.
So, how does one interpret the above paragraph? It appears that Don Thomas interprets the last sentence to mean that Givens said he saw LHO reading a newspaper in the domino room about 11:50. However, it appears to me that that really isn’t what that sentence says. I believe that, technically, the sentence says that Givens observed Lee reading a newspaper in the domino room that morning [no time given, however the preceding sentence is about early morning] and that the domino room is where the employees eat lunch about 11:50 A.M. A couple of commas would be required (before and after the phrase “where the employees eat lunch”) in order to technically correctly interpret that sentence the way Don Thomas apparently does.
I think that the somewhat similar construction of the first sentence (to the second sentence) supports the above argument. The writer of the report uses imprecise and less than ideal sentence construction which can be misleading and confusing. If we were to interpret the first sentence the way that Don Thomas appears to interpret the second sentence, the first sentence appears to say that all employees entered the building at 7 A.M. However, the testimonies of almost all of the employees indicates they normally arrive at about 8 A.M. So, it seems logical that the two somewhat similarly constructed sentences should be interpreted similarly because they were apparently written by the same person.
This argument isn’t easy to put into words that are easily followed. Hopefully, I have explained it in a way that makes sense. ;D
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What is the significance of quoting a statement that "Givens never testified to the Warren Commission"? Givens was interviewed at length by Belin in his capacity as an assistant counsel for the WC. Belin asked him those questions in Dallas rather than flying him to DC. Big deal. Maybe that was Givens' preference. Regardless, it makes no difference since Givens did testify and his testimony is part of the record taken into consideration by the WC.
Exactly! The Don Thomas rant is full of false stuff like that which in my opinion is sinister due to how it misleads the gullible masses who aren’t familiar with the details of this case…
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There are normally conflicts in various witness accounts. Showing these conflicts and suggesting they represent something sinister is apparently what CTs do.
Do witnesses normally give contradictory testimonies as often as seen in the accounts of JFK assassination investigation witnesses?
I tend to believe that the initial account tends to be the most accurate. The passage of time and other factors in my opinion can contribute to changing recollections of events. But there's also some evidence that witnesses were pressured into changing their testimonies. In the case of Charles Givens, who appears to have had some personal issues with his criminal record, he might've been manipulated into giving a different account than what he told the police initially after the assassination.
I think Thomas' theory is that the manipulation happened because Givens saw an armed man on the Sixth Floor but it wasn't Oswald. If he saw Oswald with a rifle on the Sixth floor, there would've been no reason to pressure Givens to alter his testimony (assuming that Givens was pressured by someone to change his account of that day):
Did Givens actually say it was "Mr. Lee" at the window, or like Sawyer, did Revill confound Givens' statement? What exactly did Givens say to the police? A witness to Given’s statement was a secret service agent named Mike Howard. Howard related his account to Fort Worth Star Telegram reporter, Thayer Waldo, on 9 February 1964, apparently unaware that Waldo was a newsman. According to Waldo,
"Mike Howard then explained that the negro witness had been arrested in the past by the Special Services office of the Dallas Police for gambling; and, since he was familiar with that branch of the Dallas Police, he immediately gave himself up to that branch. Mr. Howard alleged that he had visited the negro witness while he was in custody of the Special Services in the Dallas Jail."
Waldo quotes Agent Howard as saying,
"Wait till that old black boy gets up in front of the Warren Commission and tells his story. That will settle everything. Yes, sir. He was right there on the same floor, looking out the next window; and, after the first shot, he looked and saw Oswald, and then he ran. I saw him in the Dallas Police station. He was still the scaredest nigger I ever seen. I heard him tell the officer, "Man you don't know how fast fast is, because you didn't see me run that day." He said he ran and hid behind the boxes because he was afraid that Oswald would shoot him." (CE 2516)
None of this may be a problem for Mr. Bugliosi, but for those of us who insist on a reliable account of the events that day, the implications are horrendous. If Charles Givens saw Lee Harvey Oswald shoot the president, then why on earth would he not tell the FBI and the Warren Commission? Or if he did not see Lee Harvey Oswald shoot the President why did he claim that he did? Was Givens a pathological liar? If so, then none of his statements should be used as evidence. Alternatively, were Inspector Sawyer, Lt. Revill and Agent Howard lying? In May 1964 the FBI interviewed Agent Howard (CE 2578) who adamantly denied that he had ever told Waldo that Givens had seen the assassin. The FBI then interviewed Waldo (CE 2579) who was equally adamant that Howard had said exactly that. Mark Lane, on retainer with the Oswald family, complained in a letter to the Secret Service that Howard had made up the story and planted it with the press in order to falsely incriminate his client’s son. The larger concern is not that any of these officers were lying – but that they might have been telling the truth. The problem is that Waldo’s version of Howard’s story meshes with the accounts by Revill and Sawyer.
Givens’ deposition is full of holes. He states that after retrieving his jacket he left the building and walked to a parking lot at the corner of Main and Record and was there when the President went by. He further states that he was walking in front of the Record Building when he heard gunfire [6 WCH 351]. At some point he decided to return to work and tried to reenter the book depository but was refused entry by the DPD who by this time had locked down the building.
https://www.maryferrell.org/pages/Essay_-_Rewriting_History_-_Bugliosi_Parses_the_Testimony.html
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Do witnesses normally give contradictory testimonies as often as seen in the accounts of JFK assassination investigation witnesses?
I tend to believe that the initial account tends to be the most accurate. The passage of time and other factors in my opinion can contribute to changing recollections of events. But there's also some evidence that witnesses were pressured into changing their testimonies. In the case of Charles Givens, who appears to have had some personal issues with his criminal record, he might've been manipulated into giving a different account than what he told the police initially after the assassination.
I think Thomas' theory is that the manipulation happened because Givens saw an armed man on the Sixth Floor but it wasn't Oswald. If he saw Oswald with a rifle on the Sixth floor, there would've been no reason to pressure Givens to alter his testimony (assuming that Givens was pressured by someone to change his account of that day):
Did Givens actually say it was "Mr. Lee" at the window, or like Sawyer, did Revill confound Givens' statement? What exactly did Givens say to the police? A witness to Given’s statement was a secret service agent named Mike Howard. Howard related his account to Fort Worth Star Telegram reporter, Thayer Waldo, on 9 February 1964, apparently unaware that Waldo was a newsman. According to Waldo,
"Mike Howard then explained that the negro witness had been arrested in the past by the Special Services office of the Dallas Police for gambling; and, since he was familiar with that branch of the Dallas Police, he immediately gave himself up to that branch. Mr. Howard alleged that he had visited the negro witness while he was in custody of the Special Services in the Dallas Jail."
Waldo quotes Agent Howard as saying,
"Wait till that old black boy gets up in front of the Warren Commission and tells his story. That will settle everything. Yes, sir. He was right there on the same floor, looking out the next window; and, after the first shot, he looked and saw Oswald, and then he ran. I saw him in the Dallas Police station. He was still the scaredest nigger I ever seen. I heard him tell the officer, "Man you don't know how fast fast is, because you didn't see me run that day." He said he ran and hid behind the boxes because he was afraid that Oswald would shoot him." (CE 2516)
None of this may be a problem for Mr. Bugliosi, but for those of us who insist on a reliable account of the events that day, the implications are horrendous. If Charles Givens saw Lee Harvey Oswald shoot the president, then why on earth would he not tell the FBI and the Warren Commission? Or if he did not see Lee Harvey Oswald shoot the President why did he claim that he did? Was Givens a pathological liar? If so, then none of his statements should be used as evidence. Alternatively, were Inspector Sawyer, Lt. Revill and Agent Howard lying? In May 1964 the FBI interviewed Agent Howard (CE 2578) who adamantly denied that he had ever told Waldo that Givens had seen the assassin. The FBI then interviewed Waldo (CE 2579) who was equally adamant that Howard had said exactly that. Mark Lane, on retainer with the Oswald family, complained in a letter to the Secret Service that Howard had made up the story and planted it with the press in order to falsely incriminate his client’s son. The larger concern is not that any of these officers were lying – but that they might have been telling the truth. The problem is that Waldo’s version of Howard’s story meshes with the accounts by Revill and Sawyer.
Givens’ deposition is full of holes. He states that after retrieving his jacket he left the building and walked to a parking lot at the corner of Main and Record and was there when the President went by. He further states that he was walking in front of the Record Building when he heard gunfire [6 WCH 351]. At some point he decided to return to work and tried to reenter the book depository but was refused entry by the DPD who by this time had locked down the building.
https://www.maryferrell.org/pages/Essay_-_Rewriting_History_-_Bugliosi_Parses_the_Testimony.html
Do witnesses normally give contradictory testimonies as often as seen in the accounts of JFK assassination investigation witnesses?
Yes, I believe that is typical.
Hard physical evidence is more reliable. When deciding which witness accounts to believe, corroborating physical evidence is helpful. Having an alternate theory and finding a witness account to support it is what CTs tend to do. That’s why there are so many different conspiracy theories. And one of the main reasons I decided to take a fresh look at the case with an open mind…
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Hard physical evidence is more reliable. When deciding which witness accounts to believe, corroborating physical evidence is helpful. Having an alternate theory and finding a witness account to support it is what CTs tend to do. That’s why there are so many different conspiracy theories. And one of the main reasons I decided to take a fresh look at the case with an open mind…
We agree that hard evidence is more reliable than eye witness accounts.
Thomas does a decent job of deconstructing the eye witness accounts from the Book Depository in his essay but I highly recommend Sylvia Meagher's book, "Accessories After The Fact" on this topic (the Book Depository witnesses).
And with all the conflicting evidence and eye witness accounts we're left with is what Jesse Curry said:
"We don't have any proof that Oswald fired the rifle, and never did. Nobody's yet been able to put him in that building with a gun in his hand."
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We agree that hard evidence is more reliable than eye witness accounts.
Thomas does a decent job of deconstructing the eye witness accounts from the Book Depository in his essay but I highly recommend Sylvia Meagher's book, "Accessories After The Fact" on this topic (the Book Depository witnesses).
Meagher, a New Yorker, had a huge bias against the South and thought the Dallas Police was among those "Accessories". When she found out Lifton was being friendly to Liebeter, she tore into him.
And with all the conflicting evidence and eye witness accounts we're left with is what Jesse Curry said:
"We don't have any proof that Oswald fired the rifle, and never did. Nobody's yet been able to put him in that building with a gun in his hand."
You're expecting the Oswald evidence to be on Hollywood-quality film? Or for you and fellow Conspiracy Theorists be given a front row seat through time-travel?
I think Curry meant "we don't have anyone who had a clear nearby view who watched Oswald shoot the President". His department, whom he said in his book performed with honor, found and processed plenty of circumstantial evidence tying Oswald to the assassination. Critics look at those items in isolation but, in totality, the evidence is persuasive to reasonable people.
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Question!
How do you know when a Warren Gullible is uncomfortable with a subject?
Answer!
He talks about anything BUT that subject! :D
We've seen it a hundred times before, and we're seeing it again from the usual suspects on this thread.
Here, once again, is the elephant in the room which the Warren Gullibles are doing everything they can to deflect attention from:
In 1993, Mr. Harold Norman let out some startling information-----------------------------
“Why the fifth floor? Why not the sixth floor, or the seventh floor?”
“Well, at first, we were going to do it on the sixth floor, but they were working, they were putting down some flooring, some 3/8” plywood, so there was quite a bit of noise, and they were painting up there too."
[...]
“So there was an outside contractor doing the work on the floors, right?”
“Right. There was a crew of about five or six, maybe up to eight men.”
“Were they only doing work on the sixth floor?”
“At that particular time, I think they were. They were planning on doing something up on the seventh floor after they were finished with the sixth floor.”
Those of us who find it hard to believe that Mr. Norman just imagined these men out of thin air will be able to tune out the Warren Gullibles' off-topic speculative fantasies about Mr. Oswald, who (let us remind ourselves) was not even involved in the floor-laying project!
Thumb1:
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Now!
For plywood to be laid, it would first need to be brought into the building, yes? In (one presumes) long boxes or packages------much longer than any of the book boxes used in the Depository.
Easiest way in the world to smuggle in a rifle or two.
Thumb1:
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Now!
For plywood to be laid, it would first need to be brought into the building, yes? In (one presumes) long boxes or packages------much longer than any of the book boxes used in the Depository.
Easiest way in the world to smuggle in a rifle or two.
Thumb1:
I have never seen plywood sold or packaged in cardboard. I believe they were laying 3/4" plywood, which surely would not be packaged in cardboard. The weight of five such sheets of plywood, if packaged together in a box, would be 350 lbs.
Possibly some real thin plywood and hardwood-faced plywood (for crafting and high-end carpentry) may be packaged in cardboard for protection.
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The plan was brilliant because it was simple.
---------Get the men and weapon(s) in place without raising suspicions.
---------Requisition the sixth floor for the lead-up to the motorcade's arrival without raising suspicions.
---------Any man caught coming down the stairs can say he had a legitimate reason to be up there. All he has to do is get out of the building--------and then disappear. No Depository employee would have this freedom, for his name is on the books.
---------Make sure some Depository manual workers are helping out with the floor-laying project, so they can take full credit for the still-in-progress job that will be in evidence to investigators on the scene afterwards.
Of course, Officer Marrion Baker's dash into the building puts a wrinkle in things. Funnily enough, however, he ends up visiting every single floor in the building-------except for the sixth. Did the kindhearted building manager (who would have been responsible for hiring the outside contractors for the floor-laying job) improvise a way of keeping the pesky motorcycle policeman off the 'floor-laying' floor?
???
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I have never seen plywood sold or packaged in cardboard. I believe they were laying 3/4" plywood, which surely would not be packaged in cardboard. The weight of five such sheets of plywood, if packaged together in a box, would be 350 lbs.
Possibly some real thin plywood and hardwood-faced plywood (for crafting and high-end carpentry) may be packaged in cardboard for protection.
The point is that if everyone knows there's a floor-laying project going on upstairs, the arrival into the building in the days and weeks leading up to 11/22 of any long boxes/packages will not raise an eyebrow.
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Question!
How do you know when a Warren Gullible is uncomfortable with a subject?
Answer!
He talks about anything BUT that subject! :D
We've seen it a hundred times before, and we're seeing it again from the usual suspects on this thread.
Here, once again, is the elephant in the room which the Warren Gullibles are doing everything they can to deflect attention from:
In 1993, Mr. Harold Norman let out some startling information-----------------------------
“Why the fifth floor? Why not the sixth floor, or the seventh floor?”
“Well, at first, we were going to do it on the sixth floor, but they were working, they were putting down some flooring, some 3/8” plywood, so there was quite a bit of noise, and they were painting up there too."
[...]
“So there was an outside contractor doing the work on the floors, right?”
“Right. There was a crew of about five or six, maybe up to eight men.”
“Were they only doing work on the sixth floor?”
“At that particular time, I think they were. They were planning on doing something up on the seventh floor after they were finished with the sixth floor.”
Those of us who find it hard to believe that Mr. Norman just imagined these men out of thin air will be able to tune out the Warren Gullibles' off-topic speculative fantasies about Mr. Oswald, who (let us remind ourselves) was not even involved in the floor-laying project!
Thumb1:
The answers to your "question(s)?" are simple. It appears to me that the lady to claimed to see others on "one of the upper floors" saw Norman, Jarman, and Williams on the fifth floor, not the sixth floor. And Norman was likely referring to the workers from the other warehouse occupied by the TSBD. It really is this simple. The WC asked every single one of the employees in the Elm Street building if they saw any strangers in that building that day. All of them said no. How could that possibly be (if an outside work crew had been there)?
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The point is that if everyone knows there's a floor-laying project going on upstairs, the arrival into the building in the days and weeks leading up to 11/22 of any long boxes/packages will not raise an eyebrow.
If you were one of the building's "executives", you could openly bring in a fancy hunting rifle to show Roy Truly. Ordinary workers had no place to keep a rifle when not showing it, so they apparently didn't bring in their rifles, if they had any.
If someone asked Oswald what was in the wrapped package he bought to work on the morning of the assassination, he could get away with the "curtain rod" story.
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The answers to your "question(s)?" are simple. It appears to me that the lady to claimed to see others on "one of the upper floors" saw Norman, Jarman, and Williams on the fifth floor, not the sixth floor.
Well, lots of things 'appear' to you, Mr. Collins, but they are little more than products of wishful thinking.
Mr. Norman himself states he and Messrs. Williams & Jarman avoided the sixth floor because they knew it would be noisy, due to ongoing flooring work. This noise, he further states, did not abate until the time of the motorcade. Mrs. Henderson's observation of men appearing to be at work tallies with this perfectly.
Mr. Norman's information about men (non-employees) staying up on six beyond the employees' usual lunch hour also means we can stop pretending that Mr. Arnold Rowland's bald, plaid-shirt-wearing 'elderly Negro' was the 18-year-old Bonnie Ray Williams: he was a member of the outside floor crew.
And Mr. Rowland's simultaneous sighting of a man over on the west end (which was where the flooring work was being done) now makes new sense: that man too was a member of the outside floor crew.
And Norman was likely referring to the workers from the other warehouse occupied by the TSBD.
Likely? Lol.
Both of the men with Mr. Norman (Messrs. Jarman & Williams) were part of the internal manual crew helping out with the flooring project. Like all the other members of that internal crew, they had broken for lunch---together. It is beyond ridiculous to suggest that Messrs. Jarman & Williams would have decided in advance to avoid six because they expected Messrs. Arce, Lovelady, Shelley & Givens to continue working up there through the lunch break, or would have believed that the continuing noise from six was being made by them.
Mr. Norman had worked at the Depository since 1961. No way would he confuse Messrs. Arce, Lovelady, Givens, Williams and Jarman with "outside contractors". If they had been Depository men brought over from the warehouse, he would have known so and said so. He expressly draws a distinction between the outside contractors and those Depository employees who helped out with the moving of boxes, etc. Indeed, he on occasion had himself helped out (pre-11/22) when order-filling demand was slow. He met this outside crew. You think he just hallucinated the leader of the outside contractor team whom he describes as "rugged-looking", 6'2"-6'3", 210-220 pounds? Does that sound like Mr Bill Shelley to you? And you think Mr. Norman didn't know Mr. Shelley's name?
It really is this simple. The WC asked every single one of the employees in the Elm Street building if they saw any strangers in that building that day. All of them said no. How could that possibly be (if an outside work crew had been there)?
The outside work crew weren't strangers-------they were familiar faces. That's the point, and it leaves you and your Warren Gullible pals bereft of one of your favorite talking points Thumb1:
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If you were one of the building's "executives", you could openly bring in a fancy hunting rifle to show Roy Truly. Ordinary workers had no place to keep a rifle when not showing it, so they apparently didn't bring in their rifles, if they had any.
So what?
If someone asked Oswald what was in the wrapped package he bought to work on the morning of the assassination, he could get away with the "curtain rod" story.
Thanks for reminding us that you & your pals' efforts to put a sufficiently lengthy package in Mr. Oswald's hands that morning have come to nought! Thumb1:
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I think Curry meant "we don't have anyone who had a clear nearby view who watched Oswald shoot the President".
I think Curry meant exactly what he said. "We don't have any proof that Oswald fired the rifle, and never did.”
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Well, lots of things 'appear' to you, Mr. Collins, but they are little more than products of wishful thinking.
Mr. Norman himself states he and Messrs. Williams & Jarman avoided the sixth floor because they knew it would be noisy, due to ongoing flooring work. This noise, he further states, did not abate until the time of the motorcade. Mrs. Henderson's observation of men appearing to be at work tallies with this perfectly.
Mr. Norman's information about men (non-employees) staying up on six beyond the employees' usual lunch hour also means we can stop pretending that Mr. Arnold Rowland's bald, plaid-shirt-wearing 'elderly Negro' was the 18-year-old Bonnie Ray Williams: he was a member of the outside floor crew.
And Mr. Rowland's simultaneous sighting of a man over on the west end (which was where the flooring work was being done) now makes new sense: that man too was a member of the outside floor crew.
Likely? Lol.
Both of the men with Mr. Norman (Messrs. Jarman & Williams) were part of the internal manual crew helping out with the flooring project. Like all the other members of that internal crew, they had broken for lunch---together. It is beyond ridiculous to suggest that Messrs. Jarman & Williams would have decided in advance to avoid six because they expected Messrs. Arce, Lovelady, Shelley & Givens to continue working up there through the lunch break, or would have believed that the continuing noise from six was being made by them.
Mr. Norman had worked at the Depository since 1961. No way would he confuse Messrs. Arce, Lovelady, Givens, Williams and Jarman with "outside contractors". If they had been Depository men brought over from the warehouse, he would have known so and said so. He expressly draws a distinction between the outside contractors and those Depository employees who helped out with the moving of boxes, etc. Indeed, he on occasion had himself helped out (pre-11/22) when order-filling demand was slow. He met this outside crew. You think he just hallucinated the leader of the outside contractor team whom he describes as "rugged-looking", 6'2"-6'3", 210-220 pounds? Does that sound like Mr Bill Shelley to you? And you think Mr. Norman didn't know Mr. Shelley's name?
The outside work crew weren't strangers-------they were familiar faces. That's the point, and it leaves you and your Warren Gullible pals bereft of one of your favorite talking points Thumb1:
There were over seventy people who worked in the Elm Street TSBD building on 11/22/63. None of them said a single word about any “outside work crew” laying down plywood on the sixth floor. There were hundreds of people gathered outside the Elm Street TSBD building in Dealey Plaza for the time period before the motorcade arrived (in which Alan Ford claims there was noisy work going on on the sixth floor. Yet not one of the hundreds of witnesses said a single word about any noisy work going on during the time period in question, not a single witness. The work crew laying plywood on the sixth floor has been identified as employees of the TSBD, some of them normally worked at the other warehouse. The TSBD work crew members all confirmed that they were the ones laying the plywood in their testimonies and affidavits.
Sorry Alan Ford, but your fantasy “outside work crew” is just that … a fantasy.
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There were over seventy people who worked in the Elm Street TSBD building on 11/22/63. None of them said a single word about any “outside work crew” laying down plywood on the sixth floor.
Lol. How many of these people were working in the publishers' offices? And how many members of that subset ever even visited the sixth floor in the course of a working day? How many would have known any personnel details for the floor-laying project, beyond (at best) the fact that it was happening, and the various manual worker faces they'd been seeing about the place? These folks saw manual workers come and go all the time.
But here we have a man (Mr. Norman) who was a manual Depository worker, knew all the guys, and was au fait with what was going on up on six and what had been going on up on five. And he tells us in plain words that the floor-laying project was led by an outside team, with an internal Depository team helping out.
If your only refutation of Mr. Norman's recollection is that some secretary on the third floor doesn't know the details Mr. Norman knows, then you really are in trouble............
There were hundreds of people gathered outside the Elm Street TSBD building in Dealey Plaza for the time period before the motorcade arrived (in which Alan Ford claims there was noisy work going on on the sixth floor. Yet not one of the hundreds of witnesses said a single word about any noisy work going on during the time period in question, not a single witness.
~Grin~ You do know, don't you, that the acoustic relationship to the sixth floor is different for someone on the floor than for someone down on the street? Yes? And that there was other noise (incl. other noisy construction work) going on in Dealey Plaza at the time? Yes?
And how many people out on the street were asked if they'd noticed any noise from an upper floor of the Depository? Did anyone even think to ask? Hm?
Besides, lots of people had already gathered before the Depository crew broke for lunch. How many of them said a single word about any noisy work going on during that time period? And what does that big fat zilcho prove exactly?
The work crew laying plywood on the sixth floor has been identified as employees of the TSBD, some of them normally worked at the other warehouse.
Ah, "some of them". Who, exactly, Mr. Collins? All you've got is Mr. Bonnie Ray Williams and Mr. Danny Arce. Messrs. Givens, Lovelady and Shellley were based at 411 Elm. So your "some of them" amounts to two out of five. Yikes!
And---no less to the point---Mr. Norman knows all these men's names. Yet, in his Sixth Floor Oral Interview, he cannot identify by name a single member of what he is calling the outside crew. This proves that the outside crew he is talking about is not made up of any of the people in the internal (Depository-employee) helper crew.
And you still haven't told us who you think might be the "rugged-looking" white man (6'2"-6'3"/210-220 pounds) whom Mr. Norman recollects as the chatty leader of the external crew. Mr. Bill Shelley??
Mr. Collins, you are of course free to continue your rather desperate attempts to explain away what Mr. Norman is saying, but frankly all you're doing is embarrassing yourself..........
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Lol. How many of these people were working in the publishers' offices? And how many members of that subset ever even visited the sixth floor in the course of a working day? How many would have known any personnel details for the floor-laying project, beyond (at best) the fact that it was happening, and the various manual worker faces they'd been seeing about the place? These folks saw manual workers come and go all the time.
But here we have a man (Mr. Norman) who was a manual Depository worker, knew all the guys, and was au fait with what was going on up on six and what had been going on up on five. And he tells us in plain words that the floor-laying project was led by an outside team, with an internal Depository team helping out.
If your only refutation of Mr. Norman's recollection is that some secretary on the third floor doesn't know the details Mr. Norman knows, then you really are in trouble............
~Grin~ You do know, don't you, that the acoustic relationship to the sixth floor is different for someone on the floor than for someone down on the street? Yes? And that there was other noise (incl. other noisy construction work) going on in Dealey Plaza at the time? Yes?
And how many people out on the street were asked if they'd noticed any noise from an upper floor of the Depository? Did anyone even think to ask? Hm?
Besides, lots of people had already gathered before the Depository crew broke for lunch. How many of them said a single word about any noisy work going on during that time period? And what does that big fat zilcho prove exactly?
Ah, "some of them". Who, exactly, Mr. Collins? All you've got is Mr. Bonnie Ray Williams and Mr. Danny Arce. Messrs. Givens, Lovelady and Shellley were based at 411 Elm. So your "some of them" amounts to two out of five. Yikes!
And---no less to the point---Mr. Norman knows all these men's names. Yet, in his Sixth Floor Oral Interview, he cannot identify by name a single member of what he is calling the outside crew. This proves that the outside crew he is talking about is not made up of any of the people in the internal (Depository-employee) helper crew.
And you still haven't told us who you think might be the "rugged-looking" white man (6'2"-6'3"/210-220 pounds) whom Mr. Norman recollects as the chatty leader of the external crew. Mr. Bill Shelley??
Mr. Collins, you are of course free to continue your rather desperate attempts to explain away what Mr. Norman is saying, but frankly all you're doing is embarrassing yourself..........
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If your only refutation of Mr. Norman's recollection is that some secretary on the third floor doesn't know the details Mr. Norman knows, then you really are in trouble............
As Mr. Spock would say: that’s not logical. But this certainly is: If your only source (out of hundreds of witnesses, seventy something who work in the TSBD building) is Norman’s “interview” (which you haven’t provided a link to by the way). Then you “truly” (pun intended) are in deep doo doo.
Y ou do know, don't you, that the acoustic relationship to the sixth floor is different for someone on the floor than for someone down on the street? Yes? And that there was other noise (incl. other noisy construction work) going on in Dealey Plaza at the time? Yes?
The sound would be different but still apparent outside in Dealey Plaza. And heck no, there was no other noisy construction work going on in Dealey Plaza just prior to the motorcade arrival that I am aware of.
And how many people out on the street were asked if they'd noticed any noise from an upper floor of the Depository? Did anyone even think to ask? Hm?
The vast majority of the witnesses in Dealey Plaza soon learned the shots came from the TSBD. If any of them had heard any noisy construction work going on in the TSBD just prior to the arrival of the motorcade. I believe that they surely would have said something about it without being asked. But not one of the hundreds of witnesses there said a word about any noisy construction work going on at that time. Even the woman who you claim said the men on one of the uppers floors (she doesn’t even specify which floor, but you somehow “know” that it just HAD to be the sixth flloor) looked like they were working (but also looking out the window) didn’t say anything about noisy construction work going on at that time.
Besides, lots of people had already gathered before the Depository crew broke for lunch. How many of them said a single word about any noisy work going on during that time period? And what does that big fat zilcho prove exactly?
Relatively few people were gathered in Dealey Plaza before the workers broke for lunch. And they didn’t necessarily have to be making a lot of noise at that point in time. The work involved moving boxes, laying the plywood, nailing the plywood down to the existing flooring, and cutting a few pieces of plywood as needed. Only the last two items create significant noise. Plus, they could have been just discussing things.
Ah, "some of them". Who, exactly, Mr. Collins? All you've got is Mr. Bonnie Ray Williams and Mr. Danny Arce. Messrs. Givens, Lovelady and Shellley were based at 411 Elm. So your "some of them" amounts to two out of five. Yikes!
Based on memory, that sounds about right to me. So what are you “yiikesing” about? ???
And---no less to the point---Mr. Norman knows all these men's names. Yet, in his Sixth Floor Oral Interview, he cannot identify by name a single member of what he is calling the outside crew. This proves that the outside crew he is talking about is not made up of any of the people in the internal (Depository-employee) helper crew.
Is that all you have, this supposed interview that, again, you haven’t provided a link to? Again, if there really was some “outside crew” that Norman didn’t know the names of the members. Then why didn’t anyone else mention this. Not a single soul said a word about it (including Norman). The witness testimonies typically ended with the WC interviewer asking for any other information that the witness thought might be helpful. Not one of the witnesses who potentially would have know about an “outside crew” said a single word about this fantasy idea of yours. Doo doo getting deeper for you…..
And you still haven't told us who you think might be the "rugged-looking" white man (6'2"-6'3"/210-220 pounds) whom Mr. Norman recollects as the chatty leader of the external crew. Mr. Bill Shelley??
Again, you haven’t provided a link to this interview of Norman. Who do I think it might be? Mr fantasy! ::)
Mr. Collins, you are of course free to continue your rather desperate attempts to explain away what Mr. Norman is saying, but frankly all you're doing is embarrassing yourself..........
LOL. :D
Take a look in the mirror if you want to see what embarrassed looks like…. :-\
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Again, you haven’t provided a link to this interview of Norman.
https://emuseum.jfk.org/objects/4507/harold-norman-oral-history?ctx=bf69a30fdada59d68a55ebc9592a3ff66ca46cff&idx=226
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Now! There are two rather curious aspects of Messrs. Norman & Jarman's fifth floor visit:
1. Why did Messrs. Norman & Jarman leave it so late to change their location for the parade? Mr. Norman's testimony timestamps their arrival up there as late as ~12:28pm!
2. Why did they choose to go to the fifth rather than the sixth floor?
Mr. Norman's information--------as furnished in his interviews with the Sixth Floor Museum and with Mr. Glen Sample---------answers both of these questions at a stroke. Going up to five, and at the last minute, reflected no impulsive change of mind: it was the pre-agreed plan. Who wants to spend most of their lunch break to a soundtrack of banging, sawing, etc. from just one floor above?
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This photograph, taken from the SW side of the sixth floor, gives an idea of what the floor-laying deal looked like. Cleared space, cable for machinery.
(https://i.postimg.cc/pLZh0X89/TSBD-sixth.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/gxx2jpgd)
Mr. Arnold Rowland of course saw one of the two men (not the 'elderly Negro') near here
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Detail from Dillard photo, showing SW window of sixth floor just after the shooting-------------------------
(https://i.postimg.cc/7L88cqPN/Dillard-window-face.gif) (https://postimages.org/)
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From Mr. Charles Givens' 11/22 affidavit:
(https://i.postimg.cc/8C0y3Hbg/Givens-no-strangers.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)
There is no word of a lie in Mr. Givens' statement here. And that is the key point: every one of the men up on the sixth floor working on the floor-laying project, both internal crew and outside crew, was supposed to be there. There were no 'strangers' in the building. But, unbeknownst (we presume) to the Depository employees helping out up on six, there were assassins---------for whom the floor-laying project provided cover
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Some basic background:
The floor-laying project had been going on for some weeks by 11/22. First the fifth floor was done (a big job taking several weeks). Then, on Wednesday 11/20, the operation was moved up to the sixth floor.
For those working in the fourth-floor offices, the weeks of renovation of the fifth floor must have been a noisy nuisance!
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Detail from Dillard photo, showing SW window of sixth floor just after the shooting-------------------------
(https://i.postimg.cc/7L88cqPN/Dillard-window-face.gif) (https://postimages.org/)
(http://drive.google.com/uc?export=view&id=1uBAXBFCpeb2JiIXUQqNIrghnJrbDlV6B)
Debunked ages ago. But Conspiracy Kooks keep falling for it. :D
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I think Curry meant exactly what he said. "We don't have any proof that Oswald fired the rifle, and never did.”
Right. Curry clearly meant that they didn’t have enough evidence to prove that Oswald was on the Sixth floor shooting a rifle that day.
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Right. Curry clearly meant that they didn’t have enough evidence to prove that Oswald was on the Sixth floor shooting a rifle that day.
Neither did the Warren Commission. They just assumed he was there because, what they claimed was his rifle was there, but they couldn't even prove that it was his rifle. That was yet another assumption.
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Right. Curry clearly meant that they didn’t have enough evidence to prove that Oswald was on the Sixth floor shooting a rifle that day.
Oswald was arrested and charged with the crime. That would seemingly indicate that Curry believed they had enough evidence to prove the crime.
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Oswald was arrested and charged with the crime. That would seemingly indicate that Curry believed they had enough evidence to prove the crime.
I don't think Curry had much if any say in the filing of the charges, right? That was Wade's decision along with his assistants. From his testimony it seems he wasn't consulted about the charges.
Representative FORD - What evidence did you have at that point [when the charges were made]?
Mr. CURRY - I couldn't tell you all the evidence. I think Captain Fritz can tell you better than I. Captain Fritz Just told me on Friday afternoon he said, "We have sufficient evidence to file a case on Oswald for the murder of Tippit." Later on that night, somewhere around midnight, I believe, he told me, he said, "We now have sufficient evidence to file on Lee Harvey Oswald for the assassination of President Kennedy." He told me he had talked it over with Henry Wade and with the assistant district attorney and they agreed we had enough evidence to file a case, and a decision was made then to file the case, which we did.
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https://emuseum.jfk.org/objects/4507/harold-norman-oral-history?ctx=bf69a30fdada59d68a55ebc9592a3ff66ca46cff&idx=226
Thank you! Here are some of my impressions of the Sixth Floor Museum interview:
There is nothing in it that led me to believe there was an “outside crew” on the sixth floor.
Norman doesn’t remember seeing the 6’-2” worker on 11/22/63, (I believed that he was describing a coworker who he regularly discussed boxing with from listening to the tape).
Norman’s assertions that there was no coercion from any of the authorities who interviewed him, including the WC, to try to get him to testify to anything but the truth are some of the most important statements that he made. Another one is that Norman confirms that everything in his testimony transcripts is what he actually said at that time.
I don’t know who Mr. Glen Sample is, but in the excerpt of the 1993 interview that you posted in the first post of this thread, it appears to me that Sample is trying to put words in Norman’s mouth…
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Thank you! Here are some of my impressions of the Sixth Floor Museum interview:
There is nothing in it that led me to believe there was an “outside crew” on the sixth floor.
Norman doesn’t remember seeing the 6’-2” worker on 11/22/63, (I believed that he was describing a coworker who he regularly discussed boxing with from listening to the tape).
Norman’s assertions that there was no coercion from any of the authorities who interviewed him, including the WC, to try to get him to testify to anything but the truth are some of the most important statements that he made. Another one is that Norman confirms that everything in his testimony transcripts is what he actually said at that time.
I don’t know who Mr. Glen Sample is, but in the excerpt of the 1993 interview that you posted in the first post of this thread, it appears to me that Sample is trying to put words in Norman’s mouth…
I haven't followed all of this but Williams said he cut wood for the floor. So if they had a separate/"outside" crew to do the floor would he have worked with them?
Mr. WILLIAMS: They called me up to help lay a floor on the fifth floor, they wanted more boards over it. As I say, business was slow, and they were trying to keep us on without laying us off at the time. So I was using the saw, helping cut wood and lay wood.
Mr. BALL. You were laying a wood floor over the old floor?
Mr. WILLIAMS. Yes, sir.
And Givens:
Mr. GIVENS. Well, I work on the first floor most of the time, like we fill orders. We like work out of the stock downstairs. We go upstairs. We have stock on three floors, fifth, sixth, and seventh.
Mr. BELIN. Well, do you fill orders for any particular publisher more than another, so that you might be on the fifth floor, or the sixth floor more than the seventh, or do you just spend as much time on any one of those top floors as you do on any other top floor?
Mr. GIVENS. That's right.
Mr. BELIN. Is that what you were doing on the 22d of November 1963, also?
Mr. GIVENS. No, sir.
Mr. BELIN. What were you doing on November 22?
Mr. GIVENS. We were fixing the floor, putting down some plywood on the floor.
Mr. BELIN. What floor would this have been on?
Mr. GIVENS. Sixth.
Mr. BELIN. What part of the sixth floor?
Mr. GIVENS. We were working. on the west end.
So Truly wanted to keep them employed at a down time so he had them lay floors (fifth and sixth). Why call them over to cut/lay a floor if there was an "outside" crew to do that? If there's a separate crew to do this then they wouldn't have been called over to do the job.
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At the time of Oswald’s arrest, they had no evidence to charge him with murder. They didn’t even have evidence for probable cause to make an arrest.
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(http://drive.google.com/uc?export=view&id=1uBAXBFCpeb2JiIXUQqNIrghnJrbDlV6B)
Debunked ages ago.
What exactly has been debunked?
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Thank you! Here are some of my impressions of the Sixth Floor Museum interview:
There is nothing in it that led me to believe there was an “outside crew” on the sixth floor.
Norman doesn’t remember seeing the 6’-2” worker on 11/22/63, (I believed that he was describing a coworker who he regularly discussed boxing with from listening to the tape).
Norman’s assertions that there was no coercion from any of the authorities who interviewed him, including the WC, to try to get him to testify to anything but the truth are some of the most important statements that he made. Another one is that Norman confirms that everything in his testimony transcripts is what he actually said at that time.
Truly bizarre "impressions" to take from the audio, Mr. Collins! Once again, you show yourself congenitally incapable of anything other than listening, reading, thinking and arguing past the sale. Anything that doesn't comport with the official story, you just explain away with recourse to preposterous argument.
Mr. Norman explicitly distinguishes between "us" and "the carpenters". When asked to name a single "carpenter", he cannot. Yet he has no trouble (elsewhere in the interview) remembering the names Lovelady, Shelley, Givens, Williams. Ergo, the carpenters were not one of "us".
And, in the 1993 interview, he fleshes this simple fact out: outside crew, with Depository employees helping them out
I don’t know who Mr. Glen Sample is, but in the excerpt of the 1993 interview that you posted in the first post of this thread, it appears to me that Sample is trying to put words in Norman’s mouth…
Lol, the only one trying to put words in Mr. Norman's mouth is you.
Here are Mr. Norman's words: "we went up there sometimes to move stuff around for the floor construction guys. They didn’t work for the Book Depository, but if our work got slow, we would give them a hand"
Here is your 'analysis': Norman isn't actually saying the floor construction guys didn't work for the Book Depository
:D
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So Truly wanted to keep them employed at a down time so he had them lay floors (fifth and sixth). Why call them over to cut/lay a floor if there was an "outside" crew to do that? If there's a separate crew to do this then they wouldn't have been called over to do the job.
They were helping
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Truly bizarre "impressions" to take from the audio, Mr. Collins! Once again, you show yourself congenitally incapable of anything other than listening, reading, thinking and arguing past the sale. Anything that doesn't comport with the official story, you just explain away with recourse to preposterous argument.
Mr. Norman explicitly distinguishes between "us" and "the carpenters". When asked to name a single "carpenter", he cannot. Yet he has no trouble (elsewhere in the interview) remembering the names Lovelady, Shelley, Givens, Williams. Ergo, the carpenters were not one of "us".
And, in the 1993 interview, he fleshes this simple fact out: outside crew, with Depository employees helping them out
Lol, the only one trying to put words in Mr. Norman's mouth is you.
Here are Mr. Norman's words: "we went up there sometimes to move stuff around for the floor construction guys. They didn’t work for the Book Depository, but if our work got slow, we would give them a hand"
Here is your 'analysis': Norman isn't actually saying the floor construction guys didn't work for the Book Depository
:D
Truly bizarre "impressions" to take from the audio, Mr. Collins! Once again, you show yourself congenitally incapable of anything other than listening, reading, thinking and arguing past the sale. Anything that doesn't comport with the official story, you just explain away with recourse to preposterous argument.
::)
Mr. Norman explicitly distinguishes between "us" and "the carpenters". When asked to name a single "carpenter", he cannot. Yet he has no trouble (elsewhere in the interview) remembering the names Lovelady, Shelley, Givens, Williams. Ergo, the carpenters were not one of "us".
The only name that Norman could remember in the Sixth Floor Museum Oral History interview in 1991 was Givens. Here some of my notes (not verbatim) from the interview:
Question: Do you have any idea who was working on the sixth floor at that time? Who were some of the guys?
Answer: Some of the guys who work here and they had some carpenters or something.
Question: Do you know who in particular was working up there?
Answer: Givens I think might have been.
Question: Anyone else?
Answer: No cause there was just a few of us cause a lot of the old hands were still at the other warehouse.
Question: Do you remember who the carpenters were? No, there was one tall white guy that I used to talk boxing with. [but Norman doesn't remember his name] Norman doesn't remember seeing him that day and doesn't remember if he was there that day.
One thing that actually is explicitly clear in the Sixth Floor Oral History interview is that Norman does not remember a whole lot of the details from that day. There is nothing that explicitly distinguishes that there were "outsiders" who didn't work for the TSBD in that building that day. Based on the testimonies of all the employees who were at the TSBD that day, the only workers who were present that Norman might have labeled as being "outsiders" were the ones who normally worked at the other warehouse and had been called in to work on flooring in the Elm Street building. Yet here you are taking words which were put into Norman's mouth by Mr. Sample in 1993 and using your interpretation of them to make up all kinds of nonsense. How much more bizarre can one get? ???
And, in the 1993 interview, he fleshes this simple fact out: outside crew, with Depository employees helping them out
As stated above, Mr. Sample put words in his mouth. However, again, there is nothing that explicitly says the "outside workers" were not from the other TSBD building. And, again, everyone who identified the workers on the sixth floor indicated nothing that would support your nutty idea.
Lol, the only one trying to put words in Mr. Norman's mouth is you.
No, I indicated that I was describing my impression. I haven't interviewed Mr. Norman so how could I possibly do that.
Here are Mr. Norman's words: "we went up there sometimes to move stuff around for the floor construction guys. They didn’t work for the Book Depository, but if our work got slow, we would give them a hand"
Here is your 'analysis': Norman isn't actually saying the floor construction guys didn't work for the Book Depository
What I said about the Sixth Floor Museum Oral History interview is: "There is nothing in it that led me to believe there was an “outside crew” on the sixth floor."
What I said about Mr. Sample's 1993 interview is that he tried to put words into Norman's mouth.
Those are my impressions. And I cannot imagine how anyone could possibly believe the nonsense fairytale you are trying to pass off.
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(http://drive.google.com/uc?export=view&id=1uBAXBFCpeb2JiIXUQqNIrghnJrbDlV6B)
What exactly has been debunked?
Weren't you claiming there was a head in the window when you posted this?
Detail from Dillard photo, showing SW window of sixth floor just after the shooting-------------------------
(https://i.postimg.cc/7L88cqPN/Dillard-window-face.gif) (https://postimages.org/)
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I don't think Curry had much if any say in the filing of the charges, right? That was Wade's decision along with his assistants. From his testimony it seems he wasn't consulted about the charges.
Jesse Curry from what I understand, suspected that there was a conspiracy but assisted in the cover-up. Example:
Dorothy Kilgallen later managed to obtain the Dallas Police Department radio logs for the day of the assassination. This revealed that as soon as the shots were fired in the Dealey Plaza, Curry issued an order to search the Grassy Knoll area. This contradicted what Curry had told reporters and the Warren Commission.
https://spartacus-educational.com/JFKcurryJ.htm
Why did Curry lie? I'm not sure. But its yet another example of people involved with the case who stuck with the official narrative in public while they suspected Oswald didn't act alone.
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If BRW is on the 6th floor until 12:25, then it is improbable he would not have heard /seen the shooter moving a couple boxes and placing one on the SN window ledge.
So he would have to leave the 6th floor by about 12:24 so the shooter had about 1minute to come out of hiding somewhere, traverse at least 100 ft to get to the SN window and place the boxes.
Otherwise it’s an improbable situation of the shooter being very close to the SN while Williams is still on the 6th floor , supposedly eating his chicken at a window just a few windows over from the SN window.
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Now, does Alan propose that BRW was never there on the 6th floor?
If BRW is not there and it’s pretty certain that Piper wasn’t there, then we have that same problem
of Arnold Rowlands observing the “elderly negro” from 12:15-12:20 who was “hanging out” the 6th floor SE window.
The only way I found as a possible ( but low probable) solution is the following:
1. BRW was at the 6th floor SE window until approx 12:23:30.
2. Norman and Jarman begin their return from
Out front of TSBD exactly at 12:22 upon hearing a radio transmission reporting the JFK motorcade about to reach Dealey plaza.
3. The 6th floor shooter went hiding somewhere on the 6th floor after he was seen by Rowland at 12:15 at the SW window.
4. After hearing or seeing BRW enter/use elevator and departing, the shooter moved (in about 1 minute) to the SN window and placed the box on the window ledge about 12:24:45 and then sat on the box by the pipes and kept himself out of LOS. Thus at 12:25 , when Bronson film shows the side of TSBD, the box is on the window ledge, and there does not appear to be any movement of, or shape of, a figure at the window.
5. After failure by WC to discredit Rowland, BRW was “advised” to place himself a couple windows over and the chicken bones and Dr.Pepper were moved from the SN to the new position.
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Those are my impressions. And I cannot imagine how anyone could possibly believe the nonsense fairytale you are trying to pass off.
Yawn!
Which bit of Mr. Norman's statement that "the floor construction guys" "Didn’t work for the Book Depository" can you possibly be struggling with, Mr. Collins? These words all on their own rule out ALL Depository employees--------whether 401 Elm or warehouse. These men, who were helped out on the floor-laying project by some Depository employees when business was slack, came in from outside.
He is explicitly asked in his 6FM interview to name some Depository employees who helped out specifically on 11/22/63, and on the spot can only think of Mr. Givens. (Mr. Norman did not himself help out on 11/22/63.) He is however then, immediately after this, explicitly asked to name one of the carpentry crew, and cannot name a single person, being able only to give a physical/personality description of one of these men. This again proves that he knows there were two groups of men working on the floor-laying project: "carpenters" (outside team) + Depository men (helping out).
Now while Mr. Norman cannot speak with certainty to the question of who exactly was on six 11/22/63, his information that he, Mr. Williams & Mr. Jarman avoided the sixth floor for their lunch break because they had reason to expect it would be noisy, tells us a crucial fact: there were men on the sixth floor who were not expected to take their lunch hour at the same time as the Depository men. Such men cannot have been Depository employees---------they must have been members of the outside carpentry crew.
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Now, does Alan propose that BRW was never there on the 6th floor?
If BRW is not there and it’s pretty certain that Piper wasn’t there, then we have that same problem
of Arnold Rowlands observing the “elderly negro” from 12:15-12:20 who was “hanging out” the 6th floor SE window.
We don't have that problem anymore, Mr. Mason. The 'elderly Negro' was one of the outside crew working on the floor-laying project. All the Depository men, who were helping them out with the floor laying, had left the sixth floor together via an elevator race. The members of the outside crew stayed up on six.
Mr. Bonnie Ray Williams in all likelihood did not set foot on the sixth floor after leaving it for his lunch break. He was just used to explain away the chicken bones
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Yawn!
Which bit of Mr. Norman's statement that "the floor construction guys" "Didn’t work for the Book Depository" can you possibly be struggling with, Mr. Collins? These words all on their own rule out ALL Depository employees--------whether 401 Elm or warehouse. These men, who were helped out on the floor-laying project by some Depository employees when business was slack, came in from outside.
He is explicitly asked in his 6FM interview to name some Depository employees who helped out specifically on 11/22/63, and on the spot can only think of Mr. Givens. (Mr. Norman did not himself help out on 11/22/63.) He is however then, immediately after this, explicitly asked to name one of the carpentry crew, and cannot name a single person, being able only to give a physical/personality description of one of these men. This again proves that he knows there were two groups of men working on the floor-laying project: "carpenters" (outside team) + Depository men (helping out).
Now while Mr. Norman cannot speak with certainty to the question of who exactly was on six 11/22/63, his information that he, Mr. Williams & Mr. Jarman avoided the sixth floor for their lunch break because they had reason to expect it would be noisy, tells us a crucial fact: there were men on the sixth floor who were not expected to take their lunch hour at the same time as the Depository men. Such men cannot have been Depository employees---------they must have been members of the outside carpentry crew.
Which bit of Mr. Norman's statement that "the floor construction guys" "Didn’t work for the Book Depository" can you possibly be struggling with, Mr. Collins? These words all on their own rule out ALL Depository employees--------whether 401 Elm or warehouse. These men, who were helped out on the floor-laying project by some Depository employees when business was slack, came in from outside.
Taking cherry-picked words and isolating them from all of the other evidence and testimonies is not how one should form a conclusion. When considering that your interpretation of those isolated words contradicts everything else known about who was on the sixth floor (and who wasn't), it is reasonable to believe that your interpretation cannot be correct. A more reasonable explanation is that Norman is considering the Elm Street building the depository, and the separate warehouse building as something separate. Mr. Sample is the only one who used the words "outside contractor." And workers from the warehouse could be considered from "outside" the depository by Norman. Again, considering the totality of the evidence regarding who was (and wasn't) on the sixth floor that day, this is the only reasonable explanation.
He is explicitly asked in his 6FM interview to name some Depository employees who helped out specifically on 11/22/63, and on the spot can only think of Mr. Givens. (Mr. Norman did not himself help out on 11/22/63.) He is however then, immediately after this, explicitly asked to name one of the carpentry crew, and cannot name a single person, being able only to give a physical/personality description of one of these men. This again proves that he knows there were two groups of men working on the floor-laying project: "carpenters" (outside team) + Depository men (helping out).
It doesn't prove that at all. LHO couldn't remember Norman's name (as someone who he claimed walked through the domino room at his lunch time) and he had worked with him that same day. The interview with Norman was done 28-years later.
Now while Mr. Norman cannot speak with certainty to the question of who exactly was on six 11/22/63, his information that he, Mr. Williams & Mr. Jarman avoided the sixth floor for their lunch break because they had reason to expect it would be noisy, tells us a crucial fact: there were men on the sixth floor who were not expected to take their lunch hour at the same time as the Depository men. Such men cannot have been Depository employees---------they must have been members of the outside carpentry crew.
Jumping to those two conclusions is just plain nutty. ::)
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If BRW is on the 6th floor until 12:25, then it is improbable he would not have heard /seen the shooter moving a couple boxes and placing one on the SN window ledge.
So he would have to leave the 6th floor by about 12:24 so the shooter had about 1minute to come out of hiding somewhere, traverse at least 100 ft to get to the SN window and place the boxes.
Otherwise it’s an improbable situation of the shooter being very close to the SN while Williams is still on the 6th floor , supposedly eating his chicken at a window just a few windows over from the SN window.
More interestingly, if Oswald acted alone and didn't have a radio with him, how would he had known that JFK's motorcade was running a few minutes behind schedule?
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More interestingly, if Oswald acted alone and didn't have a radio with him, how would he had known that JFK's motorcade was running a few minutes behind schedule?
Why would that matter?
If he was hiding quietly and out of sight while in the sniper’s nest and BRW was eating his lunch in the third aisle, he still could have taken his shots before anyone could stop him. And if he was lurking quietly and out of sight on the west end of the floor, he could have taken shots from the open windows on that end of the building before anyone could have stopped him. As it appears to me, the second scenario seems likely. But BRW left the sixth floor before the motorcade arrived, so he was able to move to the sniper’s nest as I believe he originally planned.
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Why would that matter?
If he was hiding quietly and out of sight while in the sniper’s nest and BRW was eating his lunch in the third aisle, he still could have taken his shots before anyone could stop him. And if he was lurking quietly and out of sight on the west end of the floor, he could have taken shots from the open windows on that end of the building before anyone could have stopped him. As it appears to me, the second scenario seems likely. But BRW left the sixth floor before the motorcade arrived, so he was able to move to the sniper’s nest as I believe he originally planned.
Yes, and Oswald had eyes and ears. He knew the approximate schedule and witnesses indicated that you could hear the approach of the motorcade from the cheering along the route. And the police radios reporting the progress of the motorcade were audible in DP. No great feat that he was in place and waited for it. It's fortunate for BRW that he left the floor or he likely would have gotten the last bullet as Oswald exited the floor.
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Why would that matter?
If Oswald expected the motorcade to pass TSBD at the scheduled time, he would've needed to be in the sniper's nest at the time when BRW (or someone else) was there. Unless he had a radio and was listening to the parade at the time, he couldn't have known that he had a few more minutes to get into his firing position. (he also couldn't have known that BRW would leave shortly before the motorcade arrived or been able to prevent anyone else from coming to the Sixth floor).
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If Oswald expected the motorcade to pass TSBD at the scheduled time, he would've needed to be in the sniper's nest at the time when BRW (or someone else) was there. Unless he had a radio and was listening to the parade at the time, he couldn't have known that he had a few more minutes to get into his firing position. (he also couldn't have known that BRW would leave shortly before the motorcade arrived or been able to prevent anyone else from coming to the Sixth floor).
So what? Did you even read the scenarios that I suggested? Can you not understand that either one of those scenarios does not require him to know when the motorcade will arrive?
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Taking cherry-picked words and isolating them from all of the other evidence and testimonies is not how one should form a conclusion.
~Grin~
I'm not cherry-picking anything, Mr. Collins, you're just gaslighting.
Mr. Norman: "the floor construction guys" "[d]idn’t work for the Book Depository"
Mr. Collins: Norman is not saying the floor construction guys didn't work for the Book Depository
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From FBI interview report on Mrs. Lillian Mooneyham, 1/8/64:
Mrs. MOONEYHAM estimated that it was about 4 to 5 minutes following the shots fired by the assassin that she looked up towards the sixth floor of the TSBD and observed the figure of a man standing in a sixth floor window behind some cardboard boxes. This man appeared to Mrs. MOONEYHAM to be looking out of the window, however, the man was not close up to the window but was standing slightly back from it, so that Mrs. MOONEYHAM could not make out his features. She stated that she could give no description of this individual except to say that she is sure it was a man she observed, because the figure had on trousers. She could not recall the color of the trousers.
Who was this man?
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~Grin~
I'm not cherry-picking anything, Mr. Collins, you're just gaslighting.
Mr. Norman: "the floor construction guys" "[d]idn’t work for the Book Depository"
Mr. Collins: Norman is not saying the floor construction guys didn't work for the Book Depository
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Again, for anyone to believe that your interpretation is correct, they would have to, with no reason to, throw out all the other evidence and testimonies that contradict your rubbish. You can believe this nonsense if you want to. Apparently you are like Walt Cakebread who apparently believes his fantasies.
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So what? Did you even read the scenarios that I suggested? Can you not understand that either one of those scenarios does not require him to know when the motorcade will arrive?
If you have to imagine scenarios to fill in the gaps in evidence that prove Oswald did it, then you're proving my point that there's not enough evidence to place Oswald in the sniper's nest at the time when the shots were fired.
Not knowing the motorcade was running a few minutes late, he would've had a very short window of time to assemble the rifle and set up the sniper's nest.
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Again, for anyone to believe that your interpretation is correct, they would have to, with no reason to, throw out all the other evidence and testimonies that contradict your rubbish. You can believe this nonsense if you want to. Apparently you are like Walt Cakebread who apparently believes his fantasies.
~Grin~
Mr Collins, are you or are you not still pressing the claim that Mr. Norman's statement that ""the floor construction guys" "[d]idn’t work for the Book Depository" does not amount to a statement by Mr. Norman that the floor construction guys didn't work for the Book Depository?
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In 2005, a man named Mr. Jim Conner, posted on the Dallas Historical Society forum. He said that his mother, sister and brother-in-law worked at the TSBD, and that his brother-in-law was Billy Lovelady.
Here's what Mr. Conner wrote:
After the incident, everyone at TSB was interviewed. My mother's story then and now has stayed the same. Her parking space was just behind the fence at the grassy knoll. When she arrived for work that morning, she confronted several men in a car parked in her parking spot. Being the fiesty, Scotch-Irish she was, she told them they were not supposed to be parking there. They ignored her and continued to involve themselves in removing packages from the trunk of their car. Packages she described as could have contained rifles. She went inside and reported the incident to the manager of TSB Mr. Truly.
Throughout the rest of the day no mention was made of the incident and when interviewed by DPD she told the same story. There was no SS followup, nor was FBI interested.
Mr. Steve Thomas, a researcher, followed up with Mr. Conner, and elicited this information from him:
She described the men as both of Spanish or Cuban extraction. At that time she had had little interplay with either nationality. Many years later she worked for the Immigration Dept. and felt that in retrospect that they were more than likely Cuban. The car was a Ford, 4 door Station Wagon with Texas license.(Cream colored) She wrote the license number down and gave it to Mr. Truly.
An outside-contractor flooring crew with full access to the Depository would have enjoyed this kind of unchallenged access. And one's sense is only strengthened that the assassination team was made up, at least in part, of Cubans
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~Grin~
Mr Collins, are you or are you not still pressing the claim that Mr. Norman's statement that ""the floor construction guys" "[d]idn’t work for the Book Depository" does not amount to a statement by Mr. Norman that the floor construction guys didn't work for the Book Depository?
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Yes, because I believe that the warehouse, in Norman's thinking, was separate from the depository building (and, in fact, it physically was). But I already stated this earlier in this thread. And, regardless of whether you agree or not, one statement by one individual that contradicts all the other evidence and testimonies and has no corroboration at all is no reason to draw a conclusion that your interpretation is correct. And I also already stated this earlier in the thread. I will not go round and round in circles with you on this. It is your thread, go ahead and spout all your nonsense. But only a biased fool would believe that your interpretation is correct.
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Yes, because I believe that the warehouse, in Norman's thinking, was separate from the depository building (and, in fact, it physically was).
Lol, I don't care what you believe, Mr. Collins, because we all know you will only believe what comports with the official hoax you have fallen for.
I'm interested in facts. And the fact-------which no amount of desperate gaslighting from you can change---------is that everyone who worked at the warehouse worked for the Depository. And Mr. Norman several times mentions the warehouse, but not in relation to the carpenters who were brought in for the floor-laying job. As he confirmed to Mr. Sample, they were outside contractors, not a single one of whom he could name.
So........... what else you got?
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If you have to imagine scenarios to fill in the gaps in evidence that prove Oswald did it, then you're proving my point that there's not enough evidence to place Oswald in the sniper's nest at the time when the shots were fired.
Not knowing the motorcade was running a few minutes late, he would've had a very short window of time to assemble the rifle and set up the sniper's nest.
If you have to imagine scenarios to fill in the gaps in evidence that prove Oswald did it, then you're proving my point that there's not enough evidence to place Oswald in the sniper's nest at the time when the shots were fired.
No, unless one was there and looking over his shoulder and witnessed everything, possible scenarios are necessary in order to describe what happened. I just provided a couple of possible scenarios that show that your idea that he had to know exactly when the motorcade would arrive is false. That's what they proved in this thread.
Not knowing the motorcade was running a few minutes late, he would've had a very short window of time to assemble the rifle and set up the sniper's nest.
Not if he already had it set up.
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Lol, I don't care what you believe, Mr. Collins, because we all know you will only believe what comports with the official hoax you have fallen for.
I'm interested in facts. And the fact-------which no amount of desperate gaslighting from you can change---------is that everyone who worked at the warehouse worked for the Depository. And Mr. Norman several times mentions the warehouse, but not in relation to the carpenters who were brought in for the floor-laying job. As he confirmed to Mr. Sample, they were outside contractors, not a single one of whom he could name.
So........... what else you got?
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Just like all the other evidence and testimonies that contradict your interpretation, you throw out what I have said for no apparent reason. Good luck with trying to get anyone to believe you. I'm done.
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Friends, let us imagine (purely for argument's sake) that neither Mr. Truly nor Mr. Shelley knew of the plot beforehand. In all innocence, they hired a team of carpenters to come in for a big floor-laying project.
The assassination happens. Once it is established that everyone in the internal floor-laying crew left the sixth floor for their break, Mr. Truly and Mr. Shelley realise in horror who must have carried out the assassination.
Do they
a) tell the authorities all about this crew?
b) keep schtum (out of personal fear of reprisal and of being arrested for complicity), and get the internal crew to pretend they and they alone had been doing the floor-laying?
And once Mr. Oswald is singled out as the prime suspect, do they
i) defend their man, even at the risk of drawing heat on themselves?
ii) let him be fed to the wolves by doing all they can to help the authorities' ridiculous LN narrative?
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Just like all the other evidence and testimonies that contradict your interpretation, you throw out what I have said for no apparent reason. Good luck with trying to get anyone to believe you. I'm done.
~Grin~
Given that my conclusion is that the existence of an outside crew was deep-sixed for very, very good reason, what you call "the other evidence and testimonies" does not in the least contradict my conclusion. The Depository men who had helped out on six were terrified afterwards, and so they kept silent about those men for fear of their lives. Doubtless you would have been so much braver, fearless truth-seeker that you are, but there we are.
Thankfully, Mr. Norman did not keep silent. And when he tells us that the construction guys did not work for the Depository, I do not do what you do, which is to advance the preposterous argument that he is not telling us that the construction guys did not work for the Depository.
When you find yourself torturing the English language in the way you have been doing here, Mr. Collins, you really ought to take a step back and try some critical self-reflection!
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Why would that matter?
If he was hiding quietly and out of sight while in the sniper’s nest and BRW was eating his lunch in the third aisle, he still could have taken his shots before anyone could stop him. And if he was lurking quietly and out of sight on the west end of the floor, he could have taken shots from the open windows on that end of the building before anyone could have stopped him. As it appears to me, the second scenario seems likely. But BRW left the sixth floor before the motorcade arrived, so he was able to move to the sniper’s nest as I believe he originally planned.
Where on the west end could one have lurked out of sight?
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He knew the approximate schedule
And you know this how?
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Where on the west end could one have lurked out of sight?
The area where Arnold Rowland said he saw a man with a rifle would be out of sight of BRW while eating lunch on the cart in the third aisle. But I have already show this in another thread a while back. How quickly you forget!
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The area where Arnold Rowland said he saw a man with a rifle would be out of sight of BRW while eating lunch on the cart in the third aisle. But I have already show this in another thread a while back. How quickly you forget!
Mr. WILLIAMS. Well, at the time [he was eating his lunch] I couldn't see too much of the sixth floor, because the books at the time were stacked so high. I could see only in the path that I was standing--as I remember, I could not possibly see anything to the east side of the building. But just one aisle, the aisle I was standing in I could see just about to the west side of the building. So far as seeing to the east and behind me, I could only see down the aisle behind me and the aisle to the west of me.
Again: "I could not possibly see anything to the east side of the building."
Plus, the racist dirty Dallas police ordered him to say he saw Oswald in the nest. Remember that? That's right, the evil fascist police force didn't do that at all. They planted all of the evidence but forgot to get the witnesses to read from their script about putting Oswald in that window.
That doesn't make a lick of sense but in JFK conspiracy world not making sense is required to participate.
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Mr. WILLIAMS. Well, at the time [he was eating his lunch] I couldn't see too much of the sixth floor, because the books at the time were stacked so high. I could see only in the path that I was standing--as I remember, I could not possibly see anything to the east side of the building. But just one aisle, the aisle I was standing in I could see just about to the west side of the building. So far as seeing to the east and behind me, I could only see down the aisle behind me and the aisle to the west of me.
Again: "I could not possibly see anything to the east side of the building."
Plus, the racist dirty Dallas police ordered him to say he saw Oswald in the nest. Remember that? That's right, the evil fascist police force didn't do that at all. They planted all of the evidence but forgot to get the witnesses to read from their script about putting Oswald in that window.
That doesn't make a lick of sense but in JFK conspiracy world not making sense is required to participate.
Yes, BRW while sitting on the cart couldn’t have seen him in either the sniper’s nest or where Arnold Rowland said he saw a man with a rifle (standing back from the west window).
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Yes, BRW while sitting on the cart couldn’t have seen him in either the sniper’s nest or where Arnold Rowland said he saw a man with a rifle (standing back from the west window).
Yes, even if Oswald was standing (and not sitting/squatting) he would have been blocked from William's view from the reader/cart. However, when BRW went in or out of the floor - stood up to leave - shouldn't he [have] seen the top of Oswald's head/torso? That would have been above the boxes.
(https://www.wnd.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/09/JFK-brennan-article-CE-1310-1311-1312-window.jpg)
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Friends, let us imagine (purely for argument's sake) that neither Mr. Truly nor Mr. Shelley knew of the plot beforehand. In all innocence, they hired a team of carpenters to come in for a big floor-laying project.
The assassination happens. Once it is established that everyone in the internal floor-laying crew left the sixth floor for their break, Mr. Truly and Mr. Shelley realise in horror who must have carried out the assassination.
Do they
a) tell the authorities all about this crew?
b) keep schtum (out of personal fear of reprisal and of being arrested for complicity), and get the internal crew to pretend they and they alone had been doing the floor-laying?
And once Mr. Oswald is singled out as the prime suspect, do they
i) defend their man, even at the risk of drawing heat on themselves?
ii) let him be fed to the wolves by doing all they can to help the authorities' ridiculous LN narrative?
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Now! Continuing with this working premise that Messrs. Truly & Shelley did NOT know the true intentions of the outside-contractor 'floor-laying' crew beforehand.....
Let us assume (again for argument's sake) that Officer Baker's 11/22 account of what happened in the building reflects actual events:
(https://i.postimg.cc/3NKL9v6f/Baker-affidavit.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)
Let us put ourselves in an innocent Mr. Truly's shoes for a moment:
----------At first, he doesn't think the shots even came from his building
----------But he runs in and offers to show the policeman up the building
----------Several floors up, the officer catches a man walking away from the rear stairway
----------Mr. Truly recognizes the man as one of the outside crew that has been working on the floors upstairs, and tells the officer that he's okay, he works here
----------Later on, Mr. Truly puts the pieces together: that crew were not what they seemed, and that man by the rear stairway was making an escape
What does Mr. Truly do ?
a) Tell the authorities the truth about the encounter, and thereby reveal the presence of an external crew?
b) Find a way to keep a lid on the external crew's existence by keeping the incident in-house, i.e. pretending the man challenged by the officer was in fact an actual Depository employee?
But which Depository employee? Well, for starters, it would have to be a man who bears at least a passing resemblance to the carpentry-crew man caught walking away from that stairway......................
Imagine----------------for example-----------------this light-brown-jacket-wearing man was the actual man described in Officer Baker's affidavit:
(https://i.postimg.cc/430Bk3dw/Tan-Jacket-Man-Oswald-200.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)
He looks rather like Mr. Oswald. Might Mr. Truly get away with a switcheroo?
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Yes, BRW while sitting on the cart couldn’t have seen him in either the sniper’s nest or where Arnold Rowland said he saw a man with a rifle (standing back from the west window).
Yes, BRW while sitting on the cart couldn't have seen him in either the sniper's nest or where Arnold Rowland said he saw a man with a rifle (standing back from the west window) at the same time as he saw a man at the sniper's nest window.
Fixed! Thumb1:
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Plus, the racist dirty Dallas police ordered him to say he saw Oswald in the nest. Remember that? That's right, the evil fascist police force didn't do that at all. They planted all of the evidence but forgot to get the witnesses to read from their script about putting Oswald in that window.
They were limited in what they could do in that direction because they knew full well that Mr. Oswald hadn't been there, and that compelling evidence of his whereabouts elsewhere could very well yet emerge.
They desperately wanted Mr. Howard Brennan & Co. to say they felt that Mr. Oswald was the man they'd seen in the window. But that was as far as they could go. Pressuring a Depository employee, who actually knew Mr. Oswald, into making a knowingly false identification? Big hostage to fortune.
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Yes, even if Oswald was standing (and not sitting/squatting) he would have been blocked from William's view from the reader/cart. However, when BRW went in or out of the floor - stood up to leave - shouldn't he seen the top of Oswald's head/torso? That would have been above the boxes.
(https://www.wnd.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/09/JFK-brennan-article-CE-1310-1311-1312-window.jpg)
If they were both standing, perhaps it could have been possible if no stacks of boxes were higher than their eyes. But BRW would have had to be looking that way. And the heights of the stacks of boxes throughout the floor varied.
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Yes, BRW while sitting on the cart couldn't have seen him in either the sniper's nest or where Arnold Rowland said he saw a man with a rifle (standing back from the west window) at the same time as he saw a man at the sniper's nest window.
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Just because someone says something, it doesn’t automatically make it true. Practically all of the occupants of the limousine said that JFK didn’t say anything after he was shot through the neck. And I think that he probably couldn’t have spoken with a hole in his trachea below the larynx. But Kellerman said that he believed he heard JFK say “I’ve been hit”. Based on all of the evidence, Kellerman had to have been mistaken. I think that he might have heard JBC say that. And that JBC would have sounded different with a collapsed lung. This of course doesn’t mean that Kellerman is unreliable and everything he says is wrong. Likewise we do not have to believe everything that Arnold Rowland says. In his 11/22/63 affidavit, he only claimed seeing one man with a rifle. That's believable to me. Later embellishments when he testified to the WC are highly suspect and contradict the other evidence.
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Just because someone says something, it doesn’t automatically make it true. Practically all of the occupants of the limousine said that JFK didn’t say anything after he was shot through the neck. And I think that he probably couldn’t have spoken with a hole in his trachea below the larynx. But Kellerman said that he believed he heard JFK say “I’ve been hit”. Based on all of the evidence, Kellerman had to have been mistaken. I think that he might have heard JBC say that. And that JBC would have sounded different with a collapsed lung. This of course doesn’t mean that Kellerman is unreliable and everything he says is wrong. Likewise we do not have to believe everything that Arnold Rowland says. In his 11/22/63 affidavit, he only claimed seeing one man with a rifle. That's believable to me. Later embellishments when he testified to the WC are highly suspect and contradict the other evidence.
~Grin~
All of which is a long way of saying: I like to cherry-pick according to my convenience
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Imagine----------------for example-----------------this light-brown-jacket-wearing man was the actual man described in Officer Baker's affidavit:
(https://i.postimg.cc/430Bk3dw/Tan-Jacket-Man-Oswald-200.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)
He looks rather like Mr. Oswald. Might Mr. Truly get away with a switcheroo?
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Now!
If (arguendo) the following (columns 4 & 5) from Kent Biffle (Dallas Morning News) reflects a real event:
(https://i.postimg.cc/FKGK1qD2/Campbell-DMN.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)
: then we can supplement our posited sequence of events for an innocent Mr. Roy Truly:
----------At first, he doesn't think the shots even came from his building
----------But he runs in and offers to show the policeman up the building
----------Before they take to the stairs, they see Mr. Lee Harvey Oswald in a small storage room: Mr. Truly vouches for him as a worker
----------Several floors up, the officer catches a man walking away from the rear stairway
----------Mr. Truly recognizes the man as one of the outside crew that has been working on the floors upstairs, and tells the officer that he's okay, he works here
----------Later on, Mr. Truly puts the pieces together: that outside carpentry crew were not what they seemed, and that man by the rear stairway was making an escape
Mr. Truly soon realises he has to explain away the man Officer Baker caught on the stairs = the man he (Mr. Truly) vouched for (truthfully) as someone who worked there. Otherwise he could find himself in very deep trouble, as the man who brought that crew in in the first place.
He remembers the encounter with Mr. Oswald on the first floor, and this gives him an idea: pretend it was Oswald they ran into by the rear stairway several floors up. That gives them an employee to focus on rather than a member of the outside crew.
Why Mr. Oswald? Because he looks rather like the escaping man; and (crucially) he appears to have been inside the building at the time of the shooting. So the switcheroo just might stick.
Desperate times, desperate measures.
It is only once Mr. Truly has worked out this solution, no doubt in consultation with Mr. Shelley, that he goes to Captain Fritz with his 'I've an employee missing' schtick...................
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He remembers the encounter with Mr. Oswald on the first floor, and this gives him an idea: pretend it was Oswald they ran into by the rear stairway several floors up. That gives them an employee to focus on rather than a member of the outside crew.
Why Mr. Oswald? Because he looks rather like the escaping man; and (crucially) he appears to have been inside the building at the time of the shooting.
Desperate times, desperate measures.
It is only once Mr. Truly has worked out this solution, no doubt in consultation with Mr. Shelley, that he goes to Captain Fritz with his 'I've an employee missing' schtick...................
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But! The switcheroo causes awful complications. Because it is soon established that Mr. Oswald actually went outside to watch the P. Parade, and must have then come back inside in time to be seen in the (front-of-house) storage room. Mr. Truly, in feeding the cops a Mr. Oswald caught walking away from the rear stairway several floors up, has given them not just a major suspect but a major headache. There is every chance that compelling evidence could emerge any moment proving Mr. Oswald's front-entrance alibi.
And so is born the second-floor lunchroom fairytale. It is an adaptation of the actual rear stairway encounter, but relocated to a place that is theoretically compatible with TWO very different scenarios:
1. Mr. Oswald fired the shots and then came down from six
2. Mr. Oswald was out front and then came in and went up to the lunchroom.
All because Mr. Truly needed to hide the fact of an outside crew he had brought in to lay some new floors-----------the crew that turned out to be an assassination team
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But! The switcheroo causes awful complications. Because it is soon established that Mr. Oswald actually went outside to watch the P. Parade, and must have then come back inside in time to be seen in the (front-of-house) storage room. Mr. Truly, in feeding the cops an Mr. Oswald caught walking away from the rear stairway several floors up, has given them a major headache. There is every chance that compelling evidence could emerge any moment proving Mr. Oswald's front-entrance alibi.
And so is born the second-floor lunchroom fairytale. It is an adaptation of the actual rear stairway encounter, but relocated to a place that is theoretically compatible with TWO very different scenarios:
1. Mr. Oswald fired the shots and then came down from six
2. Mr. Oswald was out front and then came in and went up to the lunchroom.
All because Mr. Truly needed to hide the fact that the outside crew he had brought in to lay some new floors had been an assassination team
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Note! The above scenario does not require the 'investigating' authorities to ever know anything about the existence of an outside crew in charge of the floor-laying project. Rather, it has them needing to go to the most extraordinary lengths to pin the shooting on the patsy whom Mr. Truly, in panicked improvisation, has fed them.
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If Oswald expected the motorcade to pass TSBD at the scheduled time, he would've needed to be in the sniper's nest at the time when BRW (or someone else) was there. Unless he had a radio and was listening to the parade at the time, he couldn't have known that he had a few more minutes to get into his firing position. (he also couldn't have known that BRW would leave shortly before the motorcade arrived or been able to prevent anyone else from coming to the Sixth floor).
Consider that Oswald was over at the west end long before the motorcade was set to arrive but could not get back over to the sniper's nest until after Williams had left for the firth floor.
In other words, if the motorcade was set to arrive at 12:25 and Oswald was over at the west end around 12:15 (or even a few minutes earlier), then your point (above) is entirely invalid.
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~Grin~
All of which is a long way of saying: I like to cherry-pick according to my convenience
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No, it is explaining legitimate reasons to discount witness accounts that conflict with the rest of the evidence.
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Consider that Oswald was over at the west end long before the motorcade was set to arrive but could not get back over to the sniper's nest until after Williams had left for the firth floor.
In other words, if the motorcade was set to arrive at 12:25 and Oswald was over at the west end around 12:15 (or even a few minutes earlier), then your point (above) is entirely invalid.
Consider that LHO could have fired his shots from the open windows on the west end of the sixth floor if need be (ie: BRW had stayed on the sixth floor). As long as LHO was stealthy and remained undetected by BRW until the shots began, he had no reason to have to know exactly when the motorcade would arrive in Dealey Plaza.
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Note! The above scenario does not require the 'investigating' authorities to ever know anything about the existence of an outside crew in charge of the floor-laying project. Rather, it has them needing to go to the most extraordinary lengths to pin the shooting on the patsy whom Mr. Truly, in panicked improvisation, has fed them.
Mr. Truly has to explain his having vouched for a white man caught walking away from the rear stairway several floors up. The information which Mr. Harold Norman gives us allows us to consider a scenario in which the man really did work there (as Mr. Truly said), but in which his presence in the building now needed to be hushed up----------because it would mean having to reveal the presence of the outside crew Mr. Truly had brought in.
Mr. Truly's options are horribly limited here. Unless he can find an alternative 'worker', he has to admit that the assassination team was the external crew which he himself brought in to lay the floor. He needs an alternative 'worker'. But who might fit the bill? Not one of the three black workers who watched the P. Parade from the fifth floor. Not Mr. Jack Dougherty, who does fit the bill location-wise but just doesn't fit the description the motorcycle officer will be giving. Not Mr. Billy Lovelady, who might fit the bill description-wise, but doesn't location-wise (Mr. Truly knows he was out front for the P. Parade).
There is only one option: Mr. Oswald. Mr. Truly, at the time he feeds Mr. Oswald's name to the cops, thinks (erroneously) he is on safe (if deeply unethical) ground, because he saw Mr. Oswald inside the building just after the shooting (small storage room on the first floor). In sacrificing Mr. Oswald, he pushes the 'investigating' authorities into full cover-up and hoax mode. That his patsy turns out to have a commie past only intensifies the monomaniacal focus on him as a suspect. And the Lone Nut story that informs the hoax gets Mr. Truly off the hook: a Lone Nut scenario is the only one that doesn't implicate the man who hired Mr. Oswald. Such would certainly not be the case for an entire team of men brought in on Mr. Truly's initiative.
Again, all of the above supposes for argument's sake NO foreknowledge by Mr. Truly of the assassination plot. And it obviously has him mention to Mr. Ochus Campbell his sighting of Mr. Oswald in the first-floor storage room BEFORE he has thought to turn the man caught walking away from the rear stairway several floors up into Mr. Oswald.
On this scenario, the 'investigating' authorities know that Mr. Oswald didn't do the shooting, and wasn't the man Officer Baker caught by the rear stairway. Mr. Truly tells them he honestly thought it was Mr. Oswald--------and now has no idea who it can have been. The authorities don't really believe him, but all efforts must now go into pinning the crime on Mr. Oswald. FBI cooks up the lunchroom story, and Mr. Truly comes on board as a compliant witness.
It is said that Mr. Truly spent the rest of his life in great fear of the authorities. He knew that they knew he had lied about the man by the rear stairway. They just didn't know-------and didn't really want to know-------what exactly he was hiding.
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No, it is explaining legitimate reasons to discount witness accounts that conflict with the rest of the evidence.
Nope, it is contriving reasons to arbitrarily discard any evidence that does not comport with the official story. 'Given that we know Santa Claus is real, we can assume that the dimensions of the chimney are such that etc.'
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Nope, it is contriving reasons to arbitrarily discard any evidence that does not comport with the official story. 'Given that we know Santa Claus is real, we can assume that the dimensions of the chimney are such that etc.'
If you are describing yourself, I would agree. And I could add a lot more to the description of what you do. Sadly, you wouldn’t take it seriously.
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Why would they need a whole crew of conspirators on the 6th floor?
A single shooter with a semi auto rifle is all that’s necessary to pull this job off.
Ideally a person who has been employed at TSBD and is familiar with the building and the routine activity of the employees and which floor is a good place to be likely absent of employees at 12:00-12:30 on Friday 11/23/63.
Or the employee could supply information for an professional shooter a few days in advance?
Thomas Arthur Vallee was about to do the job all by himself in Chicago from a high building window. Fortunately he was preempted. It should be noted HE was intending to use a semi auto rifle.Not sure how much info he had about the building or employee routine.
If Rowlands observation of the white /Latin man with the a rifle in hand is considered credible by both CT and LN , then does not such display by the shooter suggest he was NOT likely a professional gunman?
If there was a “crew” of persons to aid this solitary gunman, WTF were they thinking letting him so blatantly displaying himself at the window with rifle in hand and in an “ at the ready” posture?
I can only speculate an CT alternative scenario of pre event staging to hopefully have a few spectators witness see and remember the display as means to direct attention to the 6th floor post shooting, so that a pre planted rifle will be found.
Are there any other CT alternative explanation?
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The area where Arnold Rowland said he saw a man with a rifle would be out of sight of BRW while eating lunch on the cart in the third aisle. But I have already show this in another thread a while back. How quickly you forget!
I don’t recall you “showing” anything of the kind.
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Mr. WILLIAMS. Well, at the time [he was eating his lunch] I couldn't see too much of the sixth floor, because the books at the time were stacked so high. I could see only in the path that I was standing--as I remember, I could not possibly see anything to the east side of the building. But just one aisle, the aisle I was standing in I could see just about to the west side of the building. So far as seeing to the east and behind me, I could only see down the aisle behind me and the aisle to the west of me.
Again: "I could not possibly see anything to the east side of the building."
Uh, Steve, we were talking about the west side.
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Why would they need a whole crew of conspirators on the 6th floor?
A single shooter with a semi auto rifle is all that’s necessary to pull this job off.
They didn't necessarily need a whole crew on the floor at 12:30pm. But the floor-laying project enabled the 6th floor to be requisitioned in the lead-up to that moment. And it worked: hence the otherwise unintelligible decision of every single member of the internal crew to stay away from that floor, even though it offered the best view in the house
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If you are describing yourself, I would agree. And I could add a lot more to the description of what you do. Sadly, you wouldn’t take it seriously.
I certainly wouldn't, Mr. Collins! 'Given that we know Santa Claus is real, little Arnie must have been mistaken about having seen Mom and Pop put the presents under the tree that night. That's the best explanation given the totality of the evidence.'
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On this scenario, the 'investigating' authorities know that Mr. Oswald didn't do the shooting, and wasn't the man Officer Baker caught by the rear stairway. Mr. Truly tells them he honestly thought it was Mr. Oswald--------and now has no idea who it can have been. The authorities don't really believe him, but all efforts must now go into pinning the crime on Mr. Oswald. FBI cooks up the lunchroom story, and Mr. Truly comes on board as a compliant witness.
Mr. BALL. At that time didn't you know that one of your officers, Baker, had seen Oswald on the second floor?
Mr. FRITZ. They told me about that down at the bookstore; I believe Mr. Truly or someone told me about it, told me they had met him--I think he told me, person who told me about, I believe told me that they met him on the stairway, but our investigation shows that he actually saw him in a lunchroom
Captain Fritz's flustered word salad tells the story here: down at the bookstore we were told that a worker had been met on the stairway, but it took an investigation afterwards to establish that no, actually it was in a lunchroom :D
Here's Mr. Truly and Officer Baker on one afterwards:
(https://i.postimg.cc/Bn6pSPpB/Alyea-first-floor-ID.gif) (https://postimages.org/)
No doubt Officer Baker has mentioned to law enforcement what he saw. And Mr. Truly knows he has a sighting of a man he vouched for as a worker---------a man whom the officer caught walking away from the rear stairway several floors up the building----------to explain away in a manner that is not lethal to himself.
Enter Mr. Oswald......................
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I don’t recall you “showing” anything of the kind.
I posted a photo taken from near the west window looking back towards the east. I showed that there are stacks of boxes between someone sitting on the cart in the third aisle and someone standing back from the west window (as far as Rowland describes) which would have blocked BRW’s view of the man with the rifle. It is a DPD photo which you should have seen many times.
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I posted a photo taken from near the west window looking back towards the east. I showed that there are stacks of boxes between someone sitting on the cart in the third aisle and someone standing back from the west window (as far as Rowland describes) which would have blocked BRW’s view of the man with the rifle. It is a DPD photo which you should have seen many times.
The best way to point things out is to really point things out
30,000 (or so) views at my Dead Oswald Tour can't be wrong
(https://i.postimg.cc/Dwf762Dc/272-CHICKEN-DELIGHT.png)
Bill Chapman
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The best way to point things out is to really point things out
30,000 (or so) views at my Dead Oswald Tour can't be wrong
(https://i.postimg.cc/Dwf762Dc/272-CHICKEN-DELIGHT.png)
Bill Chapman
It does no good to show things to people who are unwilling to see….
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Why would they need a whole crew of conspirators on the 6th floor?
A single shooter with a semi auto rifle is all that’s necessary to pull this job off.
Ideally a person who has been employed at TSBD and is familiar with the building and the routine activity of the employees and which floor is a good place to be likely absent of employees at 12:00-12:30 on Friday 11/23/63.
Or the employee could supply information for an professional shooter a few days in advance?
Thomas Arthur Vallee was about to do the job all by himself in Chicago from a high building window. Fortunately he was preempted. It should be noted HE was intending to use a semi auto rifle.Not sure how much info he had about the building or employee routine.
If Rowlands observation of the white /Latin man with the a rifle in hand is considered credible by both CT and LN , then does not such display by the shooter suggest he was NOT likely a professional gunman?
If there was a “crew” of persons to aid this solitary gunman, WTF were they thinking letting him so blatantly displaying himself at the window with rifle in hand and in an “ at the ready” posture?
I can only speculate an CT alternative scenario of pre event staging to hopefully have a few spectators witness see and remember the display as means to direct attention to the 6th floor post shooting, so that a pre planted rifle will be found.
Are there any other CT alternative explanation?
The conspirators had a side gig as home improvement specialists. A two-for-one service. They might have done some catering as well while knocking off the president. Now how did all these guys "get down the stairs unnoticed" since we are told that was impossible in Oswald's case.
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The conspirators had a side gig as home improvement specialists. A two-for-one service. They might have done some catering as well while knocking off the president. Now how did all these guys "get down the stairs unnoticed" since we are told that was impossible in Oswald's case.
They had business suits in their "Rifleman" lunch cans. They could then pretend they were police "detectives" who had come up from the street. Bonus: If any had room for a Stetson, they could suit up as Texas Rangers!
Anything's possible. McCarthy might do something not to appease the Facsist Christian Nationalist wing of the GOP.
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They had business suits in their "Rifleman" lunch cans. They could then pretend they were police "detectives" who had come up from the street. Bonus: If any had room for a Stetson, they could suit up as Texas Rangers!
Anything's possible. McCarthy might do something not to appease the Facsist Christian Nationalist wing of the GOP.
Caprio used to suggest that the real assassin escaped dressed as a fireman because a fire truck was sent to the TSBD after the assassination. His logic went something like there was no fire, therefore the presence of a fire truck could only be explained as part of a plot. He rejected documented explanations such as using the fire departments ladders to check the ceilings. Didn't fit the narrative.
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Now how did all these guys "get down the stairs unnoticed" since we are told that was impossible in Oswald's case.
~Yawn~
Already addressed in Reply #11 on this thread
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I posted a photo taken from near the west window looking back towards the east. I showed that there are stacks of boxes between someone sitting on the cart in the third aisle and someone standing back from the west window (as far as Rowland describes) which would have blocked BRW’s view of the man with the rifle. It is a DPD photo which you should have seen many times.
I believe this is the photo you're talking about, but I don't understand your argument. The window closest to the camera is the Rowland's gunman window. There is a clear line of sight up to the boxes surrounding the so-called sniper's nest.
(https://texashistory.unt.edu/ark:/67531/metapth337413/m1/1/med_res_d/)
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I believe this is the photo you're talking about, but I don't understand your argument. The window closest to the camera is the Rowland's gunman window. There is a clear line of sight up to the boxes surrounding the so-called sniper's nest.
(https://texashistory.unt.edu/ark:/67531/metapth337413/m1/1/med_res_d/)
The camera position appears to be about 2-feet from the window. Rowland said the man with the rifle appeared to be considerably further back (north) from that window. The cart that BRW was sitting on is further back (north) than where the south end of the rows of stacks of boxes are (it isn’t in the clear line of sight that you describe, it is in the third north/south aisle from the east end of the building). The photo clearly shows high stacks of boxes between BRW’s sitting position and Rowland’s description of the man with the rifle’s position.
In other words, neither BRW or the man with the rifle were in the ~2’ clear area next to the south wall.
I have drawn a red X on some of the boxes that would be between BRW (sitting on the cart between the rows of stacked boxes that form the third aisle) and the position of the man with the rifle that is described by Arnold Rowland.
(https://i.vgy.me/ZxQ37z.jpg)
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Does anyone agree with me that no professional assassin would go up to a window and stand there holding his rifle at the ready , risking being seen before the motorcade has arrived?
Would not a professional probably have a radio himself to know when the limo is about enter Dealey plaza?
Would not a professional probably check out the floor first BEFORE he gets his rifle, so in case there is someone on that floor, at least the professional will not be appearing obviously as a shooter.
So whomever was seen by Arnold Rowland at the SW window, was probably NOT a professional gunman.
A few alternatives:
1. The gunman was Oswald who wasn’t a professional , didn’t have a radio, miscalculated that the limo was arriving at 12:20, prematurely hastily went up to the 6th floor , got his assembled ( earlier morning) rifle , after he had been seen at about 12:12 by Carolyn Arnold in the 2nd floor lunchroom. He then went straight to the SW window anticipating the limo possibly about to enter Dealey plaza. He then became aware of Williams not by LOS but by HEARING the movement of the roller that Williams was sitting on. Oswald then backed away from the SW window and went around to the NE corner of room and maybe even down part way the east aisle towards the SE window where he just waited. He heard and possibly glimpsed BRW getting on the elevator at approximately 12:24. Oswald then in 1 minute (about 80 ft from the SE window) was able to place a box on the window ledge before the Bronson film stared at 12:25. He sat down on the box next to the pipes and was able to hide behind the wall just left of the window so that he was not in LOS of the Hughes camera angle. he MAY however have been in partial LOS of Howard Brennan.
2. Oswald was NOT the designated shooter, but was being fooled to believe he was to display a rifle at the SW window to test security personnel and if they could spot him in only about a 10-15 sec display at the window. After doing this deed and then hiding the MC rifle which he also was fooled to believe was a test, he left the 6th floor, went down to 1st floor and was seen by Carolyn Arnold at 12:25 in the front lobby. He then went out to watch the P. Parade about 12:28, standing somewhere on the front steps.
3. Oswald was in the 2nd floor lunchroom at 12:15 when spotted by Carolyn Arnold, therefore the rifleman at the SW window at 12:15 was some other person, who reacted in the same way as postulated in option 1 above. This person was also probably NOT a professional and may have been some other TSBD employee such as Jack Dougherty with questionable alibi. The MC rifle was pre planted to frame Oswald.
4. Alans new theory: A crew of conspirators secured the 6th floor and did something there which Alan will eventually let us know and will have an explanation for why one of them thought it necessary to display prematurely, a rifle at the SW window at 12:15 :)
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Does anyone agree with me that no professional assassin would go up to a window and stand there holding his rifle at the ready , risking being seen before the motorcade has arrived?
Would not a professional probably have a radio himself to know when the limo is about enter Dealey plaza?
Would not a professional probably check out the floor first BEFORE he gets his rifle, so in case there is someone on that floor, at least the professional will not be appearing obviously as a shooter.
So whomever was seen by Arnold Rowland at the SW window, was probably NOT a professional gunman.
A few alternatives:
1. The gunman was Oswald who wasn’t a professional , didn’t have a radio, miscalculated that the limo was arriving at 12:20, prematurely hastily went up to the 6th floor , got his assembled ( earlier morning) rifle , after he had been seen at about 12:12 by Carolyn Arnold in the 2nd floor lunchroom. He then went straight to the SW window anticipating the limo possibly about to enter Dealey plaza. He then became aware of Williams not by LOS but by HEARING the movement of the roller that Williams was sitting on. Oswald then backed away from the SW window and went around to the NE corner of room and maybe even down part way the east aisle towards the SE window where he just waited. He heard and possibly glimpsed BRW getting on the elevator at approximately 12:24. Oswald then in 1 minute (about 80 ft from the SE window) was able to place a box on the window ledge before the Bronson film stared at 12:25. He sat down on the box next to the pipes and was able to hide behind the wall just left of the window so that he was not in LOS of the Hughes camera angle. he MAY however have been in partial LOS of Howard Brennan.
2. Oswald was NOT the designated shooter, but was being fooled to believe he was to display a rifle at the SW window to test security personnel and if they could spot him in only about a 10-15 sec display at the window. After doing this deed and then hiding the MC rifle which he also was fooled to believe was a test, he left the 6th floor, went down to 1st floor and was seen by Carolyn Arnold at 12:25 in the front lobby. He then went out to watch the P. Parade about 12:28, standing somewhere on the front steps.
3. Oswald was in the 2nd floor lunchroom at 12:15 when spotted by Carolyn Arnold, therefore the rifleman at the SW window at 12:15 was some other person, who reacted in the same way as postulated in option 1 above. This person was also probably NOT a professional and may have been some other TSBD employee such as Jack Dougherty with questionable alibi. The MC rifle was pre planted to frame Oswald.
4. Alans new theory: A crew of conspirators secured the 6th floor and did something there which Alan will eventually let us know and will have an explanation for why one of them thought it necessary to display prematurely, a rifle at the SW window at 12:15 :)
The man didn't go up to the window. He stood several feet back from it. Mrs. Carolyn Walther saw two men at a window, one of whom had a gun. These guys were pretty brazen. Perhaps they counted on any folks who noticed them assuming they were there to protect Pres. Kennedy. (In which case they were right: that's exactly what Mr. Rowland and Mrs. Walther thought.)
Mr. Williams was not the bald "elderly Negro" in a bright plaid shirt seen by Mr. Rowland in the SN window.
A lone wolf employee-gunman would not have chosen the sixth floor to shoot from. It offered the best seat in the house and would thus (under normal conditions) be a likely vantage point of choice for several employees wishing to watch the P. Parade.
How on earth does your fantasy Mr. Oswald know your fantasy Mr. Williams is going to leave? Why not just slip up to the seventh floor?
And the idea of a crew of men staying up on the sixth floor through the lunch break does not from come me but from Mr. Harold Norman. His information solves the mystery of why not a single employee went to watch the P. Parade from six-----------the only in-use floor not occupied by any employee-spectators. Luck? I don't think so.
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Mr. BALL. At that time didn't you know that one of your officers, Baker, had seen Oswald on the second floor?
Mr. FRITZ. They told me about that down at the bookstore; I believe Mr. Truly or someone told me about it, told me they had met him--I think he told me, person who told me about, I believe told me that they met him on the stairway, but our investigation shows that he actually saw him in a lunchroom
Captain Fritz's flustered word salad tells the story here: down at the bookstore we were told that a worker had been met on the stairway, but it took an investigation afterwards to establish that no, actually it was in a lunchroom :D
Here's Mr. Truly and Officer Baker on one afterwards:
(https://i.postimg.cc/Bn6pSPpB/Alyea-first-floor-ID.gif) (https://postimages.org/)
No doubt Officer Baker has mentioned to law enforcement what he saw. And Mr. Truly knows he has a sighting of a man he vouched for as a worker---------a man whom the officer caught walking away from the rear stairway several floors up the building----------to explain away in a manner that is not lethal to himself.
Enter Mr. Oswald......................
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Now!
As Mr. Dan O'Meara has convincingly demonstrated, the fact that witnesses agree that the white man at the SN window was wearing an open-necked light-colored shirt/t-shirt effectively rules out the kooky theory that Mr. Oswald was that man. As Mr. O'Meara points out, this leaves only one possible alternative candidate from the pool of Depository employees: Mr. Jack Dougherty.
But Mr. Harold Norman's information about an external flooring crew, who continued working through the employees' lunch break, relieves us of having to restrict our candidate pool to Depository men. Which is a very good thing, as Mr. Dougherty is a most improbable match for the witness descriptions. He was a great big hulky guy, not slender like the man described.
My money is still on this light-brown-jacket, LHO-resembling guy with the really odd bald spot:
(https://i.postimg.cc/430Bk3dw/Tan-Jacket-Man-Oswald-200.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)
: as the man
-------------seen at the SN window (sans jacket) by Messrs. Brennan, Fischer, Edwards, as well as Mr. Amos ("white spot") Euins
-------------caught by Officer Baker walking away from the rear stairway several floors up
-------------seen by Deputy Sheriff Roger Craig running down the grass and getting into a Rambler driven by a dark-complected man
-------------described by Tippit witnesses (tan jacket)
Was this man part of the ostensible floor-laying crew?
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(https://i.postimg.cc/Bn6pSPpB/Alyea-first-floor-ID.gif) (https://postimages.org/)
No doubt Officer Baker has mentioned to law enforcement what he saw. And Mr. Truly knows he has a sighting of a man he vouched for as a worker---------a man whom the officer caught walking away from the rear stairway several floors up the building----------to explain away in a manner that is not lethal to himself.
Enter Mr. Oswald......................
Well! Up to this I have explored the scenario where Mr. Truly (and Mr. Shelley) have no foreknowledge of the plot. They have brought the outside contractors in in good faith.
But what if they are not innocent of involvement? What might that scenario look like?
Let us add into the mix another element: Mr. Oswald is being knowingly set up.
OK. The plan might work as follows:
1. The outside crew is brought in, but an arrangement is made to have them be helped out with the floor-laying by several internal employees
2. The habit of the outside crew of working through the lunch hour protects the internal employees: making it unlikely that any will watch the P. Parade on 11/22 from the sixth floor, and thus be on the hook for involvement--------each will have an alibi
3. The crucial bit: after the assassination, the real reason for assigning internal employees to help out will come into play------------they can take all the credit for all the floor-laying project, evidence for which will be apparent to the investigators who come on to the sixth floor. I.e. the outside crew can be disappeared from history
4. A man resembling Mr. Oswald is given the job of firing from the SN window
5. But Mr. Oswald's movements on 11/22 cannot be controlled, so it's always going to be touch and go whether he stays in the building for the P. Parade or goes outside to watch it
6. If it turns out he stayed inside, then the frame-up of him is 100% successful: he has no alibi
7. If it turns out he went outside, then he can at least be implicated as an accomplice (via the rifle)
8. He is not, on either outcome, being set up as a lone wolf assassin but as a member of a conspiracy. The men on the sixth floor do not keep themselves carefully hidden. They are not anxious to hide the fact that this was a conspiracy
9. But how does Mr. Truly explain away the presence of non-employees on the sixth floor at the critical time? He doesn't. He simply offers the heart-broken explanation that Mr. Oswald (who seemed such a nice boy and such a reliable worker) must have slipped several men up there after the internal flooring crew broke for lunch. It was all the commie rat's fault. Mr. Truly's only sin was to give a young man in need of work a job.
So that---------on the present scenario---------might have been the basic plan.
However! Officer Baker's dash into the building forces Mr. Truly's hand prematurely. After the encounter with the man caught walking away from the rear stairway several floors up, he must commit to identifying this man: a worker in the building, but which one? Remember, he cannot reveal the existence of the outside flooring crew. Nor however can he in hindsight declare he was a stranger in the building--------he himself vouched for the man as a worker he recognised!
Erroneously thinking--------on the basis of his and the officer's sighting of Mr. Oswald in the small storage room on the first floor just after the shooting---------that Mr. Oswald did NOT go outside to watch the P. Parade after all, he feeds Mr. Oswald's name to the cops: he was the man we encountered by the stairway.
But (for reasons outlined a few posts back) this causes complications. Mr. Oswald, it turns out, was in the doorway at the time of the motorcade, and there is no guarantee that proof of that will not yet emerge into the public domain (before authorities have had a chance to monkey with it, as they must do with the Wiegman & Altgens images).
Result: the rear stairway encounter is relocated to the second-floor lunchroom, an ambiguous, hedge-betting location that Mr. Oswald could conceivably have reached from EITHER the sixth floor OR from the front entrance.
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I believe the shows the cart that BRW claimed to have been sitting on (though several deputies noticed his chicken bones and lunch sack on and near boxes by the SE window). It looks to me like it is right next to the window. Which makes sense if he had been planning to watch the motorcade while he ate lunch.
(https://texashistory.unt.edu/ark:/67531/metapth49651/m1/1/med_res_d/)
(http://iacoletti.org/jfk/brw-cart.png)
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As for how far from the window Rowland's gunman was standing, Rowland said this in his testimony, which is closer than what he originally said in his affidavit.
Mr. SPECTER - And what is your best recollection as to how close to the window he was standing?
Mr. ROWLAND - He wasn't next to the window, but he wasn't very far back. I would say 3 to 5 feet back from the window.
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I believe the shows the cart that BRW claimed to have been sitting on (though several deputies noticed his chicken bones and lunch sack on and near boxes by the SE window). It looks to me like it is right next to the window. Which makes sense if he had been planning to watch the motorcade while he ate lunch.
(https://texashistory.unt.edu/ark:/67531/metapth49651/m1/1/med_res_d/)
(http://iacoletti.org/jfk/brw-cart.png)
After taking another look, I think I agree that the cart was next to the window. I believe that I was mistaken about it being between stacks of boxes that form the third aisle. There is another view of the cart and bottle taken looking essentially west that fooled me. Thanks for helping. If we are correct, I think the cart shows up in the photo we were discussing earlier. I have circled it in the one below:
(https://i.vgy.me/kavr29.jpg)
However, the boxes with the Xs, that I indicated earlier would be between a sitting BRW and a man with a rifle standing back from the window, would still be between them. 3 to 5 feet back from the window or further is enough.
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However, the boxes with the Xs, that I indicated earlier would be between a sitting BRW and a man with a rifle standing back from the window, would still be between them. 3 to 5 feet back from the window or further is enough.
Lol, an earnest analysis founded on a wildly silly double premise:
-------------a bald 'elderly Negro' in a bright plaid shirt hanging out at the SN window = 18-year-old Mr. Bonnie Ray Williams in a dull green shirt sitting on a cart
-------------a man in a very light-colored open-necked garment = Mr. Lee Harvey Oswald.
Most entertaining!
What's next, one wonders? A painstaking exploration into whether Santa Claus's hat is best classed as vermilion or as scarlet? :D
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From FBI interview report on Mrs. Lillian Mooneyham, 1/8/64:
Mrs. MOONEYHAM estimated that it was about 4 to 5 minutes following the shots fired by the assassin that she looked up towards the sixth floor of the TSBD and observed the figure of a man standing in a sixth floor window behind some cardboard boxes. This man appeared to Mrs. MOONEYHAM to be looking out of the window, however, the man was not close up to the window but was standing slightly back from it, so that Mrs. MOONEYHAM could not make out his features. She stated that she could give no description of this individual except to say that she is sure it was a man she observed, because the figure had on trousers. She could not recall the color of the trousers.
Who was this man?
It may well have been Mr. Jack Dougherty. From his first-day affidavit:
(https://i.postimg.cc/jS6Kf6Sm/Dougherty-back-on-sixth.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)
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However, the boxes with the Xs, that I indicated earlier would be between a sitting BRW and a man with a rifle standing back from the window, would still be between them. 3 to 5 feet back from the window or further is enough.
I disagree. I think those boxes are at least a foot deep.
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I disagree. I think those boxes are at least a foot deep.
What do you mean by that?
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Draw a line from the two-wheel cart to where the line of sight becomes obscured by the tall stack you’ve marked with Xs. In front of that line to the window there are the three short rows of boxes at least a foot deep each (where you see the soda bottle in the foreground), and the “aisle” next to the window, which would be at least 2 feet deep, or a little more.
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Draw a line from the two-wheel cart to where the line of sight becomes obscured by the tall stack you’ve marked with Xs. In front of that line to the window there are the three short rows of boxes at least a foot deep each (where you see the soda bottle in the foreground), and the “aisle” next to the window, which would be at least 2 feet deep, or a little more.
I estimate the south “aisle” to be about 24” wide and the tall stack to be about 35” from the south wall. It seems to me we are both in the same ballpark. Do you agree?
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From 'Collaborators of the Conspiracy", a 1992 article in The Third Decade by Mr. William Weston:
(https://i.postimg.cc/bJV0t7yV/Weston-Nov-92-flooring-crew.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)
Mr. Weston suggests that the crew moved up from five to six (on Wed 11/20) even though the fifth-floor job was not fully completed. From this he suggests that the floor-laying crew of Depository men (Messrs. Shelley, Givens, Lovelady, Arce, Williams) may have been knowingly securing the sixth floor in good time for Friday's motorcade.
However, we can now see---------thanks to Mr. Harold Norman's information about an external flooring crew-----------that no such foreknowledge would have been required on the part of the Depository workers, nor for them to have made the call to move prematurely from five to six. They were simply following instructions, and helping out the outside crew in good faith. Once the assassination happened, they were horrified (and terrified) to realise what those men had really been there for----------and why the move up to to six had to have happened when it did.
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I estimate the south “aisle” to be about 24” wide and the tall stack to be about 35” from the south wall. It seems to me we are both in the same ballpark. Do you agree?
I would say at least 4 feet back.
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I would say at least 4 feet back.
Okay, here's what ~4.5' looks like in my 3D model. BRW sitting on the cart is the camera position and is represented by the virtual visitor icon. I don't think it is quite that far, but giving you the benefit of the doubt, the stack of boxes is approximately 4.5' from the inside of the south wall. I have made one box invisible so that part of the rifleman character can be seen behind the boxes from BRW's position. The rifleman character is about 5' from the inside of the south wall, within the revised range that Rowland estimated.
(https://i.vgy.me/zhXbZY.jpg)
Here is the view from Arnold Rowland's position. It fits reasonably well with his description.
(https://i.vgy.me/hnAXwe.png)
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Hmm...ok, conceivable. But that would put the gunman tantalizingly close to the very edge of being seen.
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Hmm...ok, conceivable. But that would put the gunman tantalizingly close to the very edge of being seen.
Yes, I agree. However, consider the timing. Arnold Rowland said he saw the man with the rifle while the epileptic event was happening. The ambulance arrived using lights and siren. If the man with the rifle was keeping out of sight on the west end of the sixth floor, he might have heard the associated commotion going on outside in Dealey Plaza and decided to get a look outside because he might have thought the siren etc., could be associated with the motorcade arriving in Dealey Plaza. And he wanted to be ready to fire (out the west window if necessary) when the limo passed the building. So, taking a chance of being seen by someone in Dealey Plaza was necessary. And that would also apply to BRW if he was still on the sixth floor. Standing back from the window reduced the chance of being seen from the outside, and the stacks of boxes did the same regarding BRW.
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~Yawn~
Already addressed in Reply #11 on this thread
You addressed nothing except your fantasy. Suggesting that the home improvement team left the building before the assassination doesn't explain how your fantasy shooter(s) got out of the building if you support the baseless allegation that LHO couldn't even have gotten to the 2nd floor unnoticed using the same stairs. Time and again we learn that the fantasy conspirators could do things that Oswald could not have done. Amazing.
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You addressed nothing except your fantasy. Suggesting that the home improvement team left the building before the assassination doesn't explain how your fantasy shooter(s) got out of the building if you support the baseless allegation that LHO couldn't even have gotten to the 2nd floor unnoticed using the same stairs. Time and again we learn that the fantasy conspirators could do things that Oswald could not have done. Amazing.
Just another typical misrepresentation of the facts!
Oswald was the only person who needed to get down the stairs within roughly 75 seconds after the last shot, because that's when he was seen in the 2nd floor lunchroom.
Anybody else could simply have waited on the 6th floor for a while and then walk out of the building amidst all the confusion.
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Just another typical misrepresentation of the facts!
Oswald was the only person who needed to get down the stairs within roughly 75 seconds after the last shot, because that's when he was seen in the 2nd floor lunchroom.
Anybody else could simply have waited on the 6th floor for a while and then walk out of the building amidst all the confusion.
That's ALL they had to do with the law enforcement swarming the building? HA HA HA. How did your fantasy person "walk out of the building" after standing around the 6th floor for 75 or more seconds after assassinating the president? Why would they just stand there at the crime scene? HA HA HA. Unreal.
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That's ALL they had to do with the law enforcement swarming the building? HA HA HA. How did your fantasy person "walk out of the building" after standing around the 6th floor for 75 or more seconds after assassinating the president? Why would they just stand there at the crime scene? HA HA HA. Unreal.
That's ALL they had to do with the law enforcement swarming the building?
Hiding in plain sight. With so many different men from various law enforcement agencies coming on to the floor, it would be extremely easy not to be noticed in the chaos of those first 15 minutes or so.
How did your fantasy person "walk out of the building" after standing around the 6th floor for 75 or more seconds after assassinating the president?
By simply walking down the stairs, perhaps even pretending to be just another law enforcement agent.
Why would they just stand there at the crime scene?
Who said that?
Do you really think anybody would have thought that it was possible that the shooter was still up there? The mere fact that they didn't storm the 6th floor with guns drawn is a clear indicator they never entertained that possibility, which of course made it the most brilliant scenario for an escape in plain sight!
You asked for a possible explanation and (although it is clear that you will never accept it) I gave you one. Deal with it. If you feel this could never have happened that way, please share your "wisdom" with all of us and tell us why it couldn't have happened?
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You addressed nothing except your fantasy. Suggesting that the home improvement team left the building before the assassination doesn't explain how your fantasy shooter(s) got out of the building
~Grin~
MR. RICHARD SMITH: "Now how did all these guys 'get down the stairs unnoticed'...?"
MR. ALAN FORD: [Directs Mr. Smith to Reply #11, which already addressed the issue back on p. 2 of the thread]
MR. RICHARD SMITH: "You addressed nothing..."
ALSO MR. RICHARD SMITH: "shooter(s)"
if you support the baseless allegation that LHO couldn't even have gotten to the 2nd floor unnoticed using the same stairs. Time and again we learn that the fantasy conspirators could do things that Oswald could not have done. Amazing.
~Yawn~
One conspirator (not of course Mr. Oswald) did not get downstairs unnoticed. He was caught walking away from the rear stairway several floors up by Officer Baker. How many times do you need basic stuff like this explained to you, Mr. Smith, before it lodges in your brain? You're like a really, really suboptimal version of ChatGPT..............
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That's ALL they had to do with the law enforcement swarming the building?
Hiding in plain sight. With so many different men from various law enforcement agencies coming on to the floor, it would be extremely easy not to be noticed in the chaos of those first 15 minutes or so.
How did your fantasy person "walk out of the building" after standing around the 6th floor for 75 or more seconds after assassinating the president?
By simply walking down the stairs, perhaps even pretending to be just another law enforcement agent.
Why would they just stand there at the crime scene?
Who said that?
Do you really think anybody would have thought that it was possible that the shooter was still up there? The mere fact that they didn't storm the 6th floor with guns drawn is a clear indicator they never entertained that possibility, which of course made it the most brilliant scenario for an escape in plain sight!
You asked for a possible explanation and (although it is clear that you will never accept it) I gave you one. Deal with it. If you feel this could never have happened that way, please share your "wisdom" with all of us and tell us why it couldn't have happened?
I can only say "wow" to this level of nonsense. In Martin's fantasy world, someone might assassinate the president, stand around on the 6th floor (i.e. the crime scene) for at least 75 seconds for some inexplicable reason solely to reconcile this with Martin's other baseless fantasy that LHO couldn't have gone down the stairs unnoticed in this timeframe, somehow avoided detection from those descending on the building trusting that no witness would point the authorities to this location, and then do what they could have done from the first second and go down the stairs! HA HA HA. This is unreal. Is there no limit to shame from "Europe"? I'm actually embarrassed for Martin.
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I can only say "wow" to this level of nonsense. In Martin's fantasy world, someone might assassinate the president, stand around on the 6th floor (i.e. the crime scene) for at least 75 seconds for some inexplicable reason solely to reconcile this with Martin's other baseless fantasy that LHO couldn't have gone down the stairs unnoticed in this timeframe, somehow avoided detection from those descending on the building trusting that no witness would point the authorities to this location, and then do what they could have done from the first second and go down the stairs! HA HA HA. This is unreal. Is there no limit to shame from "Europe"? I'm actually embarrassed for Martin.
Does anybody see in this word salad a reason why my scenario could not have happened?
Of course not, because the clown can't give one. He can call it nonsense and fantasy all he wants but in the past 7 months he hasn't been able to provide a shred of conclusive evidence that Oswald was even on the 6th floor or that he actually did come down the stairs, within 75 seconds after the last shot without being seen.
The best the fool could do is claim that (1) somehow the best evidence that Oswald did come down the stairs unnoticed is.......(wait for it)...... "That it happened" and (2) that Oswald was on the 6th floor when the shots were fired because a rifle he claims (but can't prove) allegedly belonging to Oswald was found there. It doesn't get any more superficial than this!
This is the level of Richard Smith's ignorance and stupidity we are dealing with here. His parents should demand his tuition fees back and sue his teachers for total negligence.
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Does anybody see in this word salad a reason why my scenario could not have happened?
Of course not, because the clown can't give one. He can call it nonsense and fantasy all he wants but in the past 7 months he hasn't been able to provide a shred of conclusive evidence that Oswald was even on the 6th floor or that he actually did come down the stairs, within 75 seconds after the last shot without being seen.
The best the fool could do is claim that (1) somehow the best evidence that Oswald did come down the stairs unnoticed is.......(wait for it)...... "That it happened" and (2) that Oswald was on the 6th floor when the shots were fired because a rifle he claims (but can't prove) allegedly belonging to Oswald was found there. It doesn't get any more superficial than this!
This is the level of Richard Smith's ignorance and stupidity we are dealing with here. His parents should demand his tuition fees back and sue his teachers for total negligence.
Imbeciles of the world unite.
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Officer Baker's dash into the building forces Mr. Truly's hand prematurely. After the encounter with the man caught walking away from the rear stairway several floors up, he must commit to identifying this man: a worker in the building, but which one? Remember, he cannot reveal the existence of the outside flooring crew. Nor however can he in hindsight declare he was a stranger in the building--------he himself vouched for the man as a worker he recognised!
Erroneously thinking--------on the basis of his and the officer's sighting of Mr. Oswald in the small storage room on the first floor just after the shooting---------that Mr. Oswald did NOT go outside to watch the P. Parade after all, he feeds Mr. Oswald's name to the cops: he was the man we encountered by the stairway.
But (for reasons outlined a few posts back) this causes complications. Mr. Oswald, it turns out, was in the doorway at the time of the motorcade, and there is no guarantee that proof of that will not yet emerge into the public domain (before authorities have had a chance to monkey with it, as they must do with the Wiegman & Altgens images).
Result: the rear stairway encounter is relocated to the second-floor lunchroom, an ambiguous, hedge-betting location that Mr. Oswald could conceivably have reached from EITHER the sixth floor OR from the front entrance.
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Now!
If we were to disregard the truth of the statement by Mr. Ochus Campbell that Mr. Oswald was seen, just after Officer Baker and Mr. Truly ran inside, in a "storage room" on the first floor;
and
If we were to linger with the scenario that Mr. Truly was a knowing accomplice to the plot beforehand;
and
If we were to suppose that Mr. Truly was well aware, very quickly after the assassination, that Mr. Oswald had been out front for the P. Parade;
then
We might reconstruct the pickle he is in as follows:
1. Mr. Truly finds himself--------as a result of the motorcycle officer's quick dash into the building--------having to explain away the fact that he vouched for (as a worker) a man caught walking away from the rear stairway several floors up
2. He knows that this man was a member of the external flooring crew (a.k.a. assassination team)
3. He cannot reveal #2, so he MUST retrospectively identify the 'worker' as an internal employee
4. Identifying Mr. Oswald (falsely) as that 'worker' is very risky (as Mr. Oswald's presence out front could at any time become acknowledged fact); however, NOT identifying the 'worker' as Mr. Oswald is not just risky but suicidal for Mr. Truly
5. Under intense pressure, he finally takes the plunge: yes, we encountered Oswald, but it wasn't up several floors by the stairway, it was in the second-floor lunchroom
He feeds this line to the 'investigating' authorities (who by now know full well that Mr. Oswald was out front), who cede to his greater familiarity with the building................. and Officer Baker is given the gaslighting treatment (But you must be mistaken in your memory------the building manager is quite clear that it was in the lunchroom).
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Now!
If we were to disregard the truth of the statement by Mr. Ochus Campbell that Mr. Oswald was seen, just after Officer Baker and Mr. Truly ran inside, in a "storage room" on the first floor;
and
If we were to linger with the scenario that Mr. Truly was a knowing accomplice to the plot beforehand;
and
If we were to suppose that Mr. Truly was well aware, very quickly after the assassination, that Mr. Oswald had been out front for the P. Parade;
then
We might reconstruct the pickle he is in as follows:
1. Mr. Truly finds himself--------as a result of the motorcycle officer's quick dash into the building--------having to explain away the fact that he vouched for (as a worker) a man caught walking away from the rear stairway several floors up
2. He knows that this man was a member of the external flooring crew (a.k.a. assassination team)
3. He cannot reveal #2, so he MUST retrospectively identify the 'worker' as an internal employee
4. Identifying Mr. Oswald (falsely) as that 'worker' is very risky (as Mr. Oswald's presence out front could at any time become acknowledged fact); however, NOT identifying the 'worker' as Mr. Oswald is not just risky but suicidal for Mr. Truly
5. Under intense pressure, he finally takes the plunge: yes, we encountered Oswald, but it wasn't up several floors by the stairway, it was in the second-floor lunchroom
He feeds this line to the 'investigating' authorities (who by now know full well that Mr. Oswald was out front), who cede to his greater familiarity with the building................. and Officer Baker is given the gaslighting treatment (But you must be mistaken in your memory------the building manager is quite clear that it was in the lunchroom).
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'But!' (you cry) 'why doesn't Truly just say the man caught walking away from the rear stairway several floors up was Jack Dougherty? OK, so the physical description will be way off, but the motorcycle officer getting that wrong won't be as hard a sell as his getting the location badly wrong!'
That's easy. The 'investigating' authorities desperately need a sighting of Mr. Oswald inside the building. A (fictitious) lunchroom encounter disposes of two problems at once: explaining away the 'worker' caught by the stairway; and putting Mr. Oswald at a spot to which he might conceivably have arrived after shooting from six.
The key point is: Mr. Truly CANNOT put Mr. Oswald on an upper floor for a fictitious encounter, for he knows (as do the 'investigating' authorities by now) that Mr. Oswald was at the front entrance for the P. Parade. Any encounter must be somewhere equally consistent with having just come from the sixth floor and having just come from the front entrance. Lunchroom.
Perhaps Mr. Truly initially fed the authorities the name of Mr. Dougherty, but THEY were the ones who decided to turn the encounter into one with Mr. Oswald---------and to relocate it to the lunchroom? And perhaps we are getting a vestige of this supposed Dougherty sighting in Mr. Truly's WC testimony?:
Mr. BELIN. Did you see anyone on the fifth floor?
Mr. TRULY. Yes. When coming down I am sure I saw Jack Dougherty getting some books off the fifth floor.
Now, this is so dim in my mind that I could be making a mistake.
But I believe that he was getting some stock, that he had already gone back to work, and that he was getting some stock off the fifth floor.
Bizarre to think that Mr. Dougherty, upon hearing Mr. Eddie Piper give as his opinion that Pres. Kennedy had been shot, would just go back to work 'getting stock' as though nothing had happened. And bizarre to think that Officer Baker wouldn't even stop to speak with this man!
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In which we learn once again that "Richard's" fantasy about what a shooter "would do" somehow constitutes evidence that Oswald did it.
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Mr. Harold Norman's information about the existence of an outside carpentry crew, brought in for the floor-laying project, answers a number of hitherto intractable questions:
1. Why did Messrs. Norman, Jarman & Williams not watch the motorcade from the sixth floor?
2. Why did every other employee avoid the sixth floor as a vantage point for the motorcade?
3. Why did Messrs. Norman & Jarman leave it so very late to go up to the fifth floor (~12:28!)?
4. Who was the man whom Officer Baker caught walking away from the rear stairway several floors up the building?
5. Why did Mr. Truly vouch for this man as someone who worked in the building?
6. Who were the men seen by Mr. Arnold Rowland, Mrs Ruby Henderson & Mrs. Carolyn Walther?
7. How was an assassination team brought into the building without attracting attention?
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Mr. Harold Norman's information about the existence of an outside carpentry crew, brought in for the floor-laying project, answers a number of hitherto intractable questions:
1. Why did Messrs. Norman, Jarman & Williams not watch the motorcade from the sixth floor?
2. Why did every other employee avoid the sixth floor as a vantage point for the motorcade?
3. Why did Messrs. Norman & Jarman leave it so very late to go up to the fifth floor (~12:28!)?
4. Who was the man whom Officer Baker caught walking away from the rear stairway several floors up the building?
5. Why did Mr. Truly vouch for this man as someone who worked in the building?
6. Who were the men seen by Mr. Arnold Rowland, Mrs Ruby Henderson & Mrs. Carolyn Walther?
7. How was an assassination team brought into the building without attracting attention?
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How indeed? Answer: Oswald = Guilty.
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How indeed? Answer: Oswald = Guilty.
Did your parents demand your tuition fees back?
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'But,' I hear you cry, 'there is no evidence of any such outside team having been brought in for the plywood-laying project!'
Wrong.
Mr. Harold Norman* was NOT (like Messrs. Arce, Williams, Lovelady et al) a member of the floor-laying crew, so he may not have been told to shut up forever about the true number and mix of people who had been putting that new floor down.
(*Credit to Mr. G. Parker for coming upon the below information..............)
In 1991, he told the Sixth Floor Museum this:
------------"we [= Messrs. Norman, Williams & Jarman] had plans of waiting until the mororcade arrived and then going up to the 5th floor to watch"
------------An outside carpentry team had been brought in for the floor-laying project (he even remembered one of its men, a "kind of a rugged-looking guy", white, about 6'2"-6'3"/210-20 pounds, and chatty about boxing)
'But,' I hear you cry, 'that guy sounds like great big husky Jack Dougherty!'
Nope, it ain't Mr. Jack Dougherty.
Mr. Norman knew Mr. Dougherty well---------they were both veteran employees of the Depository. The chances of his not being able to put Mr. Dougherty's name to the man he's describing are zilch.
And Mr. Dougherty was not even part of the internal floor-laying crew!
Make no mistake about what we have here:
Mr. Norman clearly remembers that an outside carpentry crew was brought in for the floor-laying project. Of the 5-8 men in this crew, not a single name can he give, because they were not fellow-employees.
Furthermore! He cites this crew's presence on the sixth floor through the lunch break as the reason why he & Messrs. Jarman & Williams chose the fifth floor to watch the P. Parade from; and as the reason why they left it so late (~12:28!) to go up to five.
I believe Mr. Norman has let the all-important secret out------------the secret kept ever afterwards by several very frightened manual workers (Messrs. Arce, Givens, Lovelady, Williams) who knew full well who was responsible for the assassination.
And if Mr. Oswald had been brought to trial, he would surely have told everyone about this external crew, whom he had many times seen working away on five and six during the course of his order-filling duties.
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Go to 5:28 here, and look how uncomfortable Mr. Roy Edward Lewis is about talking about the refurbishment of the sixth floor:
He just doesn't want to go there. Understandable!
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The beauty of the floor-laying crew plan, of course, is that these men could be brought in three weeks before the motorcade and become familiar faces about the place.
Result: Folks working elsewhere in the building would be able honestly to state after the assassination that they 'saw no strangers'/'saw no-one who wasn't supposed to be in the building' on 11/22.
it also---------if Officer Baker's same-day affidavit is to be believed----------meant that Mr. Roy Truly could tell the honest truth when reassuring Officer Baker that the man they had just caught walking away from the rear stairway several floors up 'works here'. For he had been working here since three weeks ago.
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it also---------if Officer Baker's same-day affidavit is to be believed----------meant that Mr. Roy Truly could tell the honest truth when reassuring Officer Baker that the man they had just caught walking away from the rear stairway several floors up 'works here'. For he had been working here since three weeks ago.
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However!
If Officer Baker really did (as per his affidavit) catch this man walking away from the rear stairway several floors up, then his quick dash into the building was an unforeseen disaster for the plan. Mr. Truly had some explaining to do------------------without revealing the existence of the external floor-laying crew.
The original plan, one presumes, was to allow the culprits to get out of Dallas, leaving folks to believe that pro-Castro Cubans had been responsible for the assassination. (The 'elderly Negro' in an attention-seekingly bright plaid shirt seen by Mr. Arnold Rowland was surely a key part of this strategy.)
But Mr. Truly now had an obviously fleeing culprit to explain away. And so he set the cops on Mr. Oswald, a man who had documented Leftist credentials. Mr. Oswald had to become the man who 'works here' encountered just after the shooting.
Unfortunately, however, Mr. Oswald had been out front for the P. Parade. Hence the invention of a second-floor lunchroom encounter: consistent (with a bit of fine-tuning) with a descent from the sixth floor, but also consistent with an ascent from the front steps.
And so all efforts went into deleting Mr. Oswald's presence on the front steps, but with an escape clause in case firm proof of his true whereabouts at 12:30 should come to light.
If that were to happen, then Mr. Oswald would be written into History as an accomplice. And the Warren Gullibles would have spent all these years wasting their lives defending a different fairytale as to who had fired the shots.
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